Affordable Home-Cooked Meals that are Good Enough with Leanne Brown #463

to eating really well but for less. Leanne calls herself your friend in the kitchen and her New York Times best seller Good and Cheap is now free and has been downloaded millions of times. Will make sure to link to that in the show notes. Uh And now, her new cookbook, good Enough, was just published last week. It's a mix of essays, personal stories, and delicious recipes, as she also acknowledges the fear and anxiety that many have when it comes to cooking. We're gonna talk about all

of that and more today. Leanne. Thank you for joining us today on the podcast. Thank you for having me, and we're looking forward to this chat. We're looking forward to it to lean and that's because, Yeah, as two guys, you talk about saving money a lot our go to money saving advice when it comes to paying less for food is shop at aldi like that I meant advice. We're very good starting point, but we do not have

the depth of knowledge that you have. So but the first question we ask every guest who comes on the podcast is you know, Matt and I we drink a craft beer on every episode because it's something that we spend a lot of money on in the here and now while we're trying to be intentional about saving uh and investing for the future. What is that for you?

What's your splurge? It's a really good question, and I have a few different directions I could go on this, but I think I want to say fundamentally, it's like splurge on something that makes your life better, that is a quality of life thing, and that's definitely where I like. I'm recording this in my bedroom and I'm thinking about how important like having a comfortable, cozy bed is for me, and so we have I have nice sheets, and truly

I cannot My husband doesn't understand this. He's like the sort of person who would just leave the bed like a mess all day and just like vaguely like grab the sheets and like kind of cocoon himself and go to sleep. And I know many people who are like that it is a style thing, though I think, um, there's so many people who are just like, what's the point of making your bed because you know you're just

going to mess it up again. And while I sort of intellectually understand that my body like gets such profound pleasure out of sliding into like a smooth, crisp sheet situation, it just like I feel like my whole body can just relax and it primes me to calm down and go to sleep, and sleep, like sleep for me is

quality of life, like almost the number one thing. Like if there's anything that I can do, whether it's you know, yoga before bed, whether it's um, you know, trying to get enough excers of all of these things, you know, drinking less alcohol. I can think of all these sort of good habits that I have been trying to cultivate, and every time I add sort of a new good habit, almost always it comes down to, like that helps me

sleep better. And so truly it's like really that simple, and um, so my bed beings of this really beautiful place is super important for my quality of life. So I think that's that's sort of where my splurge comes from. It sounds like you guys really really enjoy the pleasure and connection you get from like having a good beer together, but it's not too close to bedtime, because, like you said,

that can certainly disrupolute, disruptive. We drink while we podcast in the afternoon, Lee, and I'm going to share a quick story with you. You're probably gonna cringe when I say this, but the mattress that my wife and I sleep on that we love was a free mattress that we got online through Facebook Marketplace. Hebody was giving away and we actually we were like, you know what, it's time to grow up, you know, and so we're like, okay, let's order one of these mattresses that shows up in

the mail. We got it, you know, it deflated, took twenty four hours at the spring foam combo. We did not like it, and so we were actually one of the folks who took advantage of that and send it back and we pulled down that old Queen Spring mattress down from the attic. But like you said, if it works for us, I guess that's all. That's the only measure we need. Yeah, I really think that, Like, I think no judgment about how you got it, Like, if it truly feels better for you, that's the only thing

that could possibly matter. Oh and real quick too. You know, so Joe and I we love to ride bikes. We read that before you moved to New York City you used to ride your bike everywhere. Do you get out in your bike much these days there in New York? Yeah.

You know, it's funny because my husband, I think, frankly, as part of trying to distract himself from the state of the world these last few weeks, has been buying bike parts online obsessively, probably in you know, it's a careful way that you guys enjoyed doing too, and been just fixing up both of our bikes in small ways. And he had kind of finished up making these few small improvement you know, changing to new tires, um, fixing the hub, that kind of thing. And um, we went

for a ride yesterday. It was sort of nice enough out that we went for a little family right and it felt fabulous. Um, but just family bike riding, right, so good. My daughter was like, I don't like the wind in my face, but she could deal for twenty minutes. Yes, and you know what, they're going to complain even at home. So uh, let's let's move on. Let's talk about food

and eating well on a budget. And yeah, I feel like it always feels like fancy dishes that you'd get while eating out or something they're made from these expensive cuts of meat, or they've got like trouffles shredded all over the top and something like that. Um, but what you're saying is that you don't have to have a big budget. That's not important when it comes to eating great food. Like why do you say that? Because it's true, there's so many of our favorite I mean, you said

what you just said is true. And at the same time, I would bring some reality to that statement that many of the things that you're going to order out are

also actually going to be quite inexpensive. But in terms of the ingredients that are used, Like, for example, like let's say a fancy pasta dish that has bacon and egg as the base, you're only using like maybe one or two strips of bacon and a couple of eggs, and the pasta itself is really inexpensive, but it's sort of the technique, the way that it's being put together.

That is sort of where the value comes in. And so when you can learn some of these techniques, which you know, we say the word technique, you might think, oh my gosh, that's gonna be hard. Doesn't mean it's hard, It just means it's a couple of steps that you just need to do and think through, and um, you can have these really beautiful meals that can seem really

fancy just in your own kitchen really quite easily. So I guess what I always really say is learning to like getting sort of a basic idea of cooking, and I really do mean cooking sort of as opposed to baking. Cooking like learning how to you know, say, makeup pasta dish, make a grilled cheese sandwich, like literally, like these really really simple sorts of meals, make an egg dish for yourself, how to saute vegetables, um, what to do with frozen peas, you know, when to put it into the meal so

that they won't still be cold. Like these sorts of simple techniques they can just lend such tremendous quality to your everyday life and not at really all that higher cost and I think and again people think like, oh gosh, yeah, we all know that learning to cook would like make my life better. But I think what most people maybe don't realize is just how quickly you can experience much

much better meals. Um Like, just learn a couple of really simple things, learn one or two recipes really well, things that you really really enjoy, and you can start seeing tremendous sort of improvement in the quality of your meals. And by that I really mean the quality of the of how much you can enjoy your meals and look forward to it. Yeah, I mean, I think when you know what you're doing right, when you have some knowledge as to the strokes you're making with your knife, or

like you you know, you're talking about technique here. It's sort of like when you go on like go to a museum, and if you're going through with a tour, like a guided tour or even like the audio tour, you're going to appreciate it so much more when you understand what it is that you're looking at. And I

think the same can be true with your food. I love that you talked about the difference between cooking and baking, because yeah, we've talked about this on the show before, how so much of life is it's more cooking, it's not baking. It's not these precise steps that you follow. And you know, for for those of us who do feel like, you know, a duck out of water, who weren't taught kitchen skills, what are some specifics how do we get a handle on the basics in order to

feel comfortable cooking well at home? What are some of those basic techniques that you think are necessary in order to feel confident? So, and I hate to do this, but it really is. It is sort of an individual thing. So it's not like okay, master, there's two and you're

good to go. Um. Of course you could try something like that, but I think where when we're talking about confidence, it really is about thinking about yourself, like your personal taste, and trying to think about, like, what are five dishes that I really enjoy when I eat out, say, and maybe even thinking like what is sort of a salad that I really like? What is a pasta dish that I really like? What is a stew or a soup that I really like? And starting at that place and

just learning how to make one or two of those things. Um, can be just an incredible confidence builder, and I think really putting yourself into the mix, truly thinking about your taste. I started this by saying bacon and an egg pasta. I guess what I really meant was like a carbonara. Like if you see that on your menu, I think you're like, oh carbonara, who hoo hoo, fancy fanacy. Literally bacon and egg pasta. Like it's so simple and it's just a matter of like how you put those things together.

We'll often have those types of ingredients in our pantry and our fridge already. If you're a vegetarian, you know, you may want to skip the bacon. If you're wanting to add in more vegetable as you could do you know, it's still quite classic to add peas, or to add some other kind of veggies or herbs or something like that. You can add some lemon zest. These are ways to kind of bring in your own taste to it. But I think so much of it is just taking is

a knowing that it is good and important. I think to take your own personal taste into account and to start where you are and then be really really patient and gentle with yourself as you get going, um, celebrate every meal you make, celebrate your effort, and appreciate yourself for the effort that you're making on your own behalf,

and just like know that it's for everyone. It is hard to try something new, and so don't have that kind of self talk that I think so many of us grow up with inside our heads, which is sort of like, oh, I should be better at this already, and like that's so embarrassing that I don't know how to do that, like all of that kind of stuff.

Try to like really leave that in the background and celebrate yourself that you know, no matter how small, even if it's just making toast, just appreciate the kindness of your intention as you make um these things for yourself, and that will kind of fuel you through. And it's not that it's making too big a deal out of it, or letting yourself off the hook or any of that. It's being truthful because it is a really good thing to make these things. And making any sort of habit

change in our lives is hard. Like we are built as creatures of habit, we really are. And it's you know, for all kinds of important reasons that our ancestors millions of years ago, um needed. But so making changes in our lives is unsettling, and so we need to actually so poured ourselves through these experiences. And we can support ourselves not by diminishing our efforts and making fun of ourselves when we don't do well, but really celebrating ourselves.

And we do make make mistakes and when it does work out not so well, to kind of roll with it and go like, yeah, that makes sense. It's part of learning, and you need to hold yourself to a realistic standard and that is what will sort of allow you to succeed in the long term totally. And I mean, and that's so much of what you focus on within you know, within your new book. I love how you're

talking about gravitating towards the dishes that you enjoy. How that's a great piece of start when it comes to how you want to improve in the kitchen. You've you know, shared before as well, just some of this, you know, some of the specific tools and like you mentioned, you know a second ago, you said lemon zest and that reminded me that you talk about the microplane specifically and how this is just this really affordable tool that has so much utility, explain to folks why they need to

have that. Specifically, I love a microplane because, yeah, lemon zest lines really any kind of citrus, the zest is such as I just it makes me actually so happy. I love when people have never really used zest before and I can introduce it to them for the first time, because it's so magical. If you're someone who likes cocktails as well, you might be familiar with sort of the beauty of the twist in the cocktail um and it's yeah, yeah, right,

So like using the the outside of citrus. It has this incredible, incredibly strong aroma and flavor because it's basically orange oil or lemon oil or lime oil that is inside that um the zest on the outside, and so you add just a tiny bit of this and you're able to scrape it off just so easily, so quickly with the microplane, and you can add that kind of bright,

acidic flavor to anything. My friends kind of make fun of me quite often when I'm cooking with them, or if I'm over at their house and they're cooking somewhere, like, should I add lemons ust to this leen? It's like, because because I always do that. And obviously we talked about money, and I mean I love the fact that you focused on that so much because I mean that's such an affordable tool, you know, Like we're not talking about you, you know, folks going out and buying like

an air fire. I don't know how much an air fire cost, but I know they're hot and people love them. But I got a feeling they take up a lot

of counterspace. That's true. It's true. Well, and when when it comes to money land part of the reason that you're on our radar, And like, we want to talk about your new book good Enough more as well, but like you wrote a cookbook initially, Like your claim to fame was the cookbook Good and Cheap, which was released in about eating well on just four dollars a day. Like what made you feel compelled to write that in

the first place? Um? And like, yeah, can you kind of give us a little bit of an idea of what your focus was in that one? Oh well, so that came out of my master's degree and food studies at m y U, And it was just kind of looking at the state of things, Um, this awareness that you know they are huge, huge millions of people, um in the US alone who are living on a budget

about four dollars a day or less. Um. That's sort of anyone who qualifies for food stamps, UH is living on our snap as it's called now, but I know most people still think of it as food stamps. The food stamps program. It's approximately four dollars per person per day, which is very little money. And I know, you know, there's a lot of issues with that, and you know, there are a lot of a lot of people who are always saying like, oh, nobody can eat healthy on that,

nobody can eat enough on that. And you know, I'm not really here to say whether or not, like on a moral level, whether it's okay that there's literally millions of people living on four dollars a day and we say that that's okay. I personally don't think that that's

enough and that that's okay UM. But what I wanted to do was meet this reality where it was and offer, you know, my own sort of knowledge as a home cook who knows that you know, uh, you can make really really delicious food, um for very little money if you kind of have some technique, if you have the confidence to put things together, that there's just so much more that can be done, and seeing the kinds of resources that were available to people, I just felt like

they were really lacking, um in particular, they were lacking in uh, sort of the addition of fruits and vegetables and sort of anything interesting. They were often these sort of there's this attitude which you know is always there, I think in American culture around sort of poverty and not having enough. There's a sort of l well, you must have done something to deserve this, This must be kind of your fault, and and the often the resources

really reflected that. It was like, you can have this three times photocopied church basement, you know, cookbook that I found at a garage sale, and you should feel really lucky that I'm letting you have this was sort of the attitude. And to me, it was like I wanted to create a resource and something that was beautiful and appealing, like any other lovely cookbook out there, but that just happened to be at a price point that could um

could work for many people. And so that you know, because I also know that many people are walking into into bookstores and seeing these cookbooks and feeling left out and going like, well, I can't possibly even afford that, so why would I even try? So I wanted to be really clear that cooking absolutely is affordable, um, and

sort of have that as a starting point. And and you know, there's also this like belief that you can't eat sort of healthy generally, like a healthy food, um for a little because healthy means like green juice and all these kinds of very expensive things. And you know, healthy just means like eating a variety of fruits and vegetables, and and or eating a variety of foods generally, and trying to eat more fruits and vegetables. And certainly it's true that you know, at this time of year, buying

a few grams of raspberries is hideously expensive. But yes, exactly, but like, but there are ways to shop and and to cook that can sort of maximize your budget and

still like to eat eat well. And something that you said at the beginning, which was sort of staying away from those like expensive cuts of meat and sort of more expensive dairy and using um, those more expensive items like um, you know, butter and cream and expensive cheeses and expensive meats, and using smaller quantities of those um alongside like the cheaper stables like rice or pasta or beans or things like that that we can, uh, you

can still have just fabulous, fabulous food. So for me, it was you know, wanting to share that and um and wanting to sort of in my own small, small way, try to just like right, attempt to right this wrong that I saw out there, and and to invite just more people into the kitchen who may have felt left out.

I always want to just be welcoming. I think that's like fundamentally where I always at is like welcome, welcome, welcome as many people into the process of cooking, because I think it's not just wonderful to eat well, but I think the actual process of cooking is really empowering and confidence building. Yeah, it's a good skill to have, and to know that you can feed yourself and feed yourself well feels good and it brings the light. Yes, and it also helps foster community. I mean, there's so

many good things about cooking. And yeah, I love that you say you don't have to eat junk food if you don't have much money, like there's a way, And you also give people the free resource the downloadable the downloadable copy of that book. Um, Lean, we want to talk about more. We want to talk about cooking when you have kids. We want to talk about food waste, we want to talk about leftovers. We'll get to some of our questions on that front with you right after

this break. Alright, we're back. We're talking about how we can cook home cooked meals that are affordable, that are good enough. We're talking with Lean Brown, and we were just talking about her previous book, Good and Cheap and Lee and one of the things actually that you do in that cookbook as well as you put the total costs for the for the dishes as well as the cost per serving, which I thought was was genius as well. But let's talk now about your new book, good Enough.

I'm curious to know more about this new book, Like it does have some recipes, but it also is it's kind of part memoir, you know, with like a you know a little dash of self care advice in there. And so what made you write this book that sort of defies literary genres? Yeah, well it didn't. It actually came a lot out of my experiences with Good and Cheap. I had this sort of in build assumption when I created good and cheap, and then when it ended up

being this sort of surprise success and UM. I ended up touring all over the country, being in so many different rooms, talking to so many different people, both in person people and UM people emailed me people UM contacted me in so many different ways. Sometimes it was like, oh, how do you cook greens or something, but often it was What I found was people were more likely to

be sharing their personal stories. Often it was growing up without a lot of money or having or being in some way affected by this, you know, working with people who are struggling to UM feed themselves now or feed their family, or who have goals that they're not meeting and they're frustrated, or who hate cooking but want to

love it, you know, all these kinds of experiences. And what I began to notice on what I just found that I couldn't look away from, was that so many people it didn't it wasn't even about the cost of things.

It was about something deeper. It was about feeling like they weren't worth the effort, Like at some level there was some shame that had gone so deep inside that it was really hard to come out from that you know, I'm not a good enough cook, I'm not a good enough person to even work on this for or um, there's so much of this kind of pain or this sort of personalite, like there's something wrong with me that I don't know how to do this, that I have

so far kind of failed at this. These all these just really really harsh beliefs that people were holding about themselves. And there, you know, where there were times where I was so privileged to be in a position, I think, to soothe some of those painful feelings and maybe to

create the beginnings of some healing. But I couldn't look away from us also because I, you know, I related to it, and and I found that I was reflected in my own journey of cooking, but also just in life in general of you know, dealing with anxiety and

depression for much of my life. And so I found that I wanted to share the way that cooking kind of helped me figure myself out, help me find confidence, help me find creativity, and the way that I use it as sort of a deep kind of self care, not just as like oh I can make myself something delicious, but something where I can notice, like I can rely on myself. I can I can learn to trust myself,

I can do all these things. And so it started out as as something where I was like, oh, I'm going to tell the stories of all these folks that I met. And then I realized over time that that wasn't going to work and I had to do the vulnerable thing and tell my own story, and that was the only way it was going to work. So it

took quite a few years because I really resisted that. Um, I didn't want to do it, but I'm so glad I did because I think that what I realized in over time once I finally broke down and stopped resisting, was you know, any piece of art, any book, anything that has ever really helped me or made me feel comforted or seen, has always come from somebody else sharing their truth honestly. And so I realized that I need

to do that too. Yeah, well, I appreciate it. And you you give a lot of personal anecdotes which helped cooking feel a little more relatable because you see a cookbook, it's like it's like the ten commandments down from on high, and you're like, oh, this is what the wise person who knows all tells to me the p on who knows nothing, But this is very like a give and take, which I appreciate. And and at one point in the book, you there's this quote that stuck out to me. You

said cooking is great, but eating is essential. And that was particularly in a section where you recommended a lot of really basic dishes like low effort meals. So can you talk to us about low effort meals and kind of why we should maybe be attempting those first or attempting those more often. Yeah, that was I think my like me and my twenties would be like no m about all of that. Um. I was always like such

an overachiever. For the longest time, I didn't think it was because, you know, cooking was like sort of the only space where I was like feeling pleasure and creativity and all that kind of thing. And now I think part of it is becoming a parent, part of it is just getting a little wiser, getting a little bit more honest. But life is going to Absolutely it is an unassailable reality that there will be so many days we're just getting some food in your body is the

best you can do. Like that's a fact, no matter you know, they will whether lucky enough to not have those days very often. You know, tragedy will happen, hardship will happen, just too much stress, just not having enough time, all these sorts of even you know, even not the sort of losing people, like, not that kind of level of pain, but just sort of the everyday pain they happen.

And so you've got to have cheese toast, you know, you've gotta have cereal, You've gotta like it has to be okay to eat crackers and cheese, it has to be okay to eat like just a handful of almonds. It has to be okay, um, to just be putting nourishment into your body. And so I wanted to And I don't think that's something that people who write cookbooks usually say. And that's totally understandable, because the point of a cookbook is often to give people like something that

is a little bit more elevated to create. But what I realized again with all the folks who reached out to me in the past, was that people are longing to know that it's okay to eat that way. Like I can't tell you how many emails I got about there's a set in good and cheap called stuff on toast, and it's exactly what it sounds like. It's like, take some leftovers, take some this takes some that um takes some like wilted spinach, and throw it in there and put it on some toast and you have a meal.

And I truly got so many emails from people saying, gosh, I feel so validated, like to know it's okay. Yes exactly. It's like what a weird position to be in that I can kind of give people permission to eat in a way that is working for them, and that takes that guilt that they're feeling, this idea that they're not doing enough that you know, whether it's you know, Instagram or the sort of food culture creates this image that is completely unattainable for most of us the time. Yeah,

and again, like I don't think there's anything. There's not nobody's like trying to do anything bad. It's like everyone's

just trying to sell, like make my thing. It looks nice, But what it does over time if you don't have um sort of some grounding in like eating, you know, being in a family where they cooked relatively often and Um, you were fed in a particular way, and you know what's normal that you know, maybe once or twice a week you have a meal that looks kind of like that, um, and that's what's normal, rather than for every meal you can believe that like, oh everyone else is eating in

this incredible way. Everything looks great. I am, you know, such a failure. And when you feel like a failure, you don't want to try because you feel like you've already failed. So it's to me things like this create the chance for people to actually dive in and feel successful, which is literally it, right, Like I think we all know that sort of boring like thing that everyone talks about this time of year, just like just showing up

is most of the battle. But it's true, And so showing up in the kitchen, even if it's just to grab a handful of nuts and not then saying like, oh my god, I'm such a loser because I just ate crackers and cheese this week. It's like, well, what happened this week? Why did you only eat crackers and cheese? Is that really because you're a loser? Is it? Because this it was really intense and you don't have you know, enough stuff around right now and you weren't able to

get to the grocery store, and like, that's okay. We don't need to like internalize these things as problems with ourselves, but rather problems with our circumstances. Yeah, and you hinted at this, but you had a baby. You've got a daughter now that's you know, pretty young, and so that has an impact on the amount of time that you're

able to dedicate towards food. And one of the things in your your new cookbook here good Enough, is that I love how you put the t l d R the too Long Didn't Read at the top, which it's just like a one since its summary, because it quickly gives you an idea of what this recipe is going

to entail. But then once you do have a level of comfort where you know you've got some chops, you know how to handle yourself in the kitchen, you can kind of quickly look at some of those t LDRs and they just kind of know what to do already and you don't need to redress. And I found that incredibly. That was just yeah, that was just really cool to see something and to quickly do you feel good about yourself almost like it's likely I do kind of know how to cook it exact that is basic enough for

dummy like me. Well, and that's what I love about doing something like that, because to me, it's like, fundamentally that's just a shame remover, not only in terms of just noticing like remember, you know, it looks like it's sixteen steps, but it's like cut it up, put it in a pan, and he wait till brown put it in a bowl at the end, Like that's so much

of what we're doing. But um, it's sort of like we give these intricate steps so that you can really have success, so you can understand the why of everything. But fundamentally, that's all we're doing. And so I think sometimes taking that preciousness away can just remind um the reader like oh yeah, this is actually really doable. And then the other thing is so many people, myself absolutely included.

Even as a recipe um writer, I don't read the recipes most of the time, you know, or like not before I do it, even though you should, of course, like you really should read it all the way through, not because like that's the good girl thing to do or whatever, but really because it will just give you a greater chance of success, a greater ability to be organized and feeling control as you're doing the recipe and

feel calm during it. But I still don't. And so it was just a way of acknowledging most of us are not going to read it through before we start, and so here's a way, um that you can still sort of get the purpose of reading it through before you start ahead of time, UM, so that you can feel good and you don't have to and you don't feel again like ashamed like that I as the this big cookbook author from on high is judging and going, oh, I'm so offended you didn't read through my own recipe

and respect my every word and suggestion. It's like, now we're all just human, Like I just want you to eat well. I want you to feel good about the food that you're making at home. I want you to know that your taste matters more than mine to you

as well. That's the other thing that's really important to me, le And we are a money podcast, and you know, when we're talking about food, one of the big problems with when it comes to how much we spend on food is throwing food away and so yeah, what what should we be tossing items out that are past that used by date or how can we get better? I guess about using all the food that's on hand, not throwing stuff away, not forgetting about the leftovers that are

in the back of the fridge, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely, I think that is probably if you want to save money without making huge changes um to your lifestyle, really working on your waste management was probably like one of the quickest routes um. And but the ways to do that are like, yes, absolutely, you can use a ton of things are fine after they're um they're used by date, but it does depend on the thing, and so I it's almost like I don't know that we can get

into that necessarily. Yeah. It's like you know, if there's like blue gunk on your yogurt, throw it out, um, you know. But like there's but there's all kinds of things like like especially canned items, things like that. They're often absolutely fine for long even I hate to say, but like almost years afterwards. Um. And same with there's all kinds of things. It's like if it isn't ransid, if it isn't moldy, like of course, you can use it and then when it comes to you know, something

that I talked about a lot is like with fresh produce. Um. That's something that a lot of people struggle with waist around because there's a sort of phenomenon where you get excited, You're like, yeah, I'm going to cook all this stuff this week, and you buy maybe a little more than it's totally realistic, um, and then you end up with like welch spinach and like yucky tomatoes, and then you feel bad about it and you actually have a sception and uh, my new book Good Enough about sort of

that like shame cycle of where you're like so embarrassed that you have the gross spinach that you ignore it for another week, like hoping cycle to avoid. Yeah. Well, I mean on that note, I mean I thought you you talked well about not only the foods that are going to keep well and the foods that probably don't do well as leftovers, but you gave some tips as well as two ways, like just different things we can do to make eating leftovers more successful. Uh do you

mind sharing some of those? Sure? Absolutely so. And I have lots of this in Good and Cheap, which is freely available online too, especially for something like a stew or a soup, reusing it just in a slightly different way. Um often just after you make it, putting it directly

in the freezer. Really, these are most of my tips are they're almost they're boring, but they're just about like, just be realistic and try to be consistent with yourself, um plan, try to like make realistic meal plans rather than these like pine in this guy like I'm gonna cook every single you know, three meals a day every day this week. It's like, is that really realistic? Especially we're in January now, and it's like people have all these New York resolutions and they're like, I'm going to

be the best cook ever ever. It's just such a setup and the kind of breaks my heart because it's like then if you crash and burn at that, then you think like, oh my god, I could never do that. It's like, well, actually, if you just had a more realistic goal, you probably would be able to be consistent about it. And then the other thing is like with those wilted like the wilted situation, there's so many recipes

where you can actually still use those things. You know, you maybe don't want to use like wilted spinach in a salad if you can use it in like a keish or um of course, like soups and stews and saute's. Like there's so many places where vegetables don't need to be perfectly fresh. Um. Even roasting vegetables um like like doing like a tray sort of bake in the oven.

Those all can be fabulous ways to read it. So I think just like really trying to um, stay on top of that and and just being again being realistic with yourself doesn't mean giving up on yourself. It actually is like the better way to really like give yourself a chance of success. So saying like I'm gonna make three meals this week that have these fresh vegetables and I have a plan for them, and then you won't

end up like with these things that that are wasted. Yeah, And you mean you gave some very just simple practical stuff to you. I mean, like you know, keeping your leftovers and clear containers so that you can actually see what's inside of them, or keeping all of the you know, the food that's that's ready for them. The glassock ones are so fabulous, like there and there you can clean them so easily. Um, you can. Everything looks nice in them,

They look appealing. It reminds you that it's there. All that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely, well, all that like by behavioral science, you know where it's like keep your chocolate covered pretzels in the jars that you can't see through, so that you don't just eat those, and keep the yeah, the food that you want to snack on, the carrot sticks in in a clear glass jar exactly. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, I was kind of asking about that because I I feel like I'm, you know, here at

how the money at least I'm the king of leftovers. Leftovers. Uh and and that's a style thing, right absolutely, people is like a badge of monitor. Yeah, had it on my bicep. But yeah, we've got several other questions we want to get to including we we want to talk to you too about like meal delivery, your thoughts on that, getting out of ruts as well when it comes to cooking. We'll get to all that right after this break. All right, we're gonna keep this train rolling. We're talking with Lean

Brown about making good food on less money. And uh, Lean, we we hinted at the beginning of the show where I mentioned that all these basically are quick go to answer for people who want to save money when it comes to cooking their own food. It seems like lean approved too, and that was like, up, what's your take on the low cost grocery stores? Okay, all right, yeah it's great. I mean all the is a great place.

Not only it's like low cost, but it's also they have really good quality basics, which allows you to make really great quality food at home. Um okay, so full disclosure. I actually was like on an Aldi like board a few years ago. They like, I was consulting for something. Um, so I am a fan of theirs, and uh, I just yeah, I just I think they are doing a

really good job. I think the way that they cut costs is usually like to reduce like packaging and to reduce the way that they advertise and things like that. So none of those actually affect the quality of food. You're still yeah, yeah, And because it's again it's like it's your water down milk or anything like that, you know exactly, no, not at all all of its cood quality.

And because it's yeah it's Germans, like they have like that good German chocolate and stuff like that, like they have good food there, and so yeah, I I absolutely think that they're a wonderful place to start shopping and in addition to cooking for ourselves, which can be a challenge, you know, I can dundrum for many parents, uh that that they face our kids who are picky eaters, you know, like a lot of kids are begging for snacks, for the fruit roll ups and stuff that their friends have

in their school lunches. How how do you deal or how do you recommend dealing with the best complaints because I assume your baby, your toddler isn't necessarily the same, of course, you know, that's always the funny thing, right, I think, And again I guess I'll go We'll go back to uh just normalizing, like it's just yeah, that's

what kids are like, um, and that's okay. And so I think part of it is acceptance, like just sort of surrendering to when children are young, they are going to be what we call picky, which really is like again from a historical sort of evolutionary biology perspective, is completely appropriate. It's a real thing that they're experiencing their body.

They have a very strong disgust response to um new foods in order for you know, millions of years ago or many many many millennia go protecting themselves from eating something poisonous um. And so these are like strong biological responses that they're having in their body and so on that note, Basically, what I always say is kind of like don't stress and don't try to fight it too much, because like then you can create like all this sort of misery around food and fighting that you don't that

like it's just a losing battle. Um. So part of the acceptance and then and yeah, and just knowing that like you know, your kids probably gonna cry when you say no to the tenth threat of the day, and that that is also okay and um, and that for kids to want to eat mac and cheese every day doesn't mean you are a failure. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them. And it also doesn't mean that they're not going to eat a huge and wonderful variety

of foods when they're older. And it might mean that you're making mac and cheese, you know, or that you are raising a survivor exactly that Yeah, like I know it sounds so silly, But the evolutionary biology piece I often do bring in because I think that parents forget like when the kid, you know, when you've had that like your kid tries something that they liked last week and then they get this like just repulsed look on

their face. They're not faking it. It's like they're really having an experience in their body that is hard for them to control. Um, it's so it's not personal, but that's really hard. You know, it's hard when and especially for those of us who you know, preparing food for the people love is a way of expressing love, it can feel like a rejection when they don't, and especially because the other way we try to show love is

by taking care of each other's body. So when you're trying to say be like we're putting peas in the mac and cheese and they're like never tossed across room. Um, it can hurt. But just know that that's normal and that it's not personal, and just that it's a process, and that nobody cookbook authors and you know, parenting advice columnists and all of us are struggling with the exact same thing. All right, I want to know your take

on meal delivery services. It's one of those things that that my wife and I we've tried, and by my wife and I mean mostly she's like she's like wanted to do it, and we got just like a super cheap trial offer, right, and my wife really enjoyed it just having all the media ingredients shipped to the door, and then it was just incredibly easy to cook a meal and to get out of maybe the rut of

some of the things that were used to cooking. But then on the regular basis, it's just it's prohibitively expensive. We thought it, but you know, what's your take on those? Because she felt great after doing it and the food was good too. Yes, So I think it has a time to place. And I think really what you said is my own experience and the experience of you know,

many many people who I've I've talked with. I think it can be really nice thing to do for a period of time if you are feeling stuck in a rut or you're needing to kind of reconnect with cooking or reconnect with some new flavors. Um it can be a really great thing to try for a little while to bring something new into your life. Um, in a way that is, you know, not the pressure of like I'm going to create, like like get a new cookbook

and cook it through it or something like that. It's something where it's all delivered to your door and all that kind of thing. It's contained someone else is doing the decision making. I think all of that is great. And yes, some of the trial offers also can be really reasonably priced. Um. But yeah, over time, the downsides

are absolutely most of them. You don't do the same thing again, and so sometimes you know, if you're having it like five days a week, it can be it's just a lot of cooking, which sometimes can put you off a little bit, and it's not the same thing because you know, much as many of us are like I'm not at all a five year old, were also kind of five year old and the things we like sometimes again right, um, And so you're also talking about

cost again. One of the best ways to have things below cost is to do repeat meals and to have sort of your rotation of favorites that you always have the ingredients for and that you can always make. Um. That is absolutely going to be a great way to save money in the long term. Um. So so Yeah, basically, I think it's a style thing. I think it's also

something that's really lovely for parents. It's something I would love to give to like parents of a new baby w they have one baby, not when you have like a four year old too, or a two year old as well, but parents of a new baby sort of who have a little bit of time and you can hold like a newborn and like create some fresh food but have it all delivered in this sort of contained way, UM, but maybe have time to do like a half hour forty five minute UM kind of cook session. I think

it can be really good. And then, of course the other criticism is most of them require tremendous amounts of packaging UM, which is wasted not only UM. And then there's the single serving nature of it, which again is all to the good in order to take UM, your sort of the mental energy that you would put into this is taken away by making it these lovely single

serving things. But also it creates like an environmental waste issue, which I don't think it's really worth it in the end, unfortunately, and there are are places that are working on that, but I think even you know, the sort of best of the best really eco minded ones are still you know, it's still like it's a fridge box shows up at your every day at a front step, Like, is there a way to do that that isn't bad for the environment?

So okay, speaking of the environment, meat protein, animal protein specifically, is this purely like an American obsession because not only is it happening, yeah, just the quantities that we consume animal proteins here in the States because obviously it's expensive, right, and it's something that we think a lot about when it comes to our meals. But you know, you also read the work of Mutner and just the amount of protein that other cultures eat has shown to to lead

to even till the longer lives. And so I would love to hear your thoughts on the amount of animal protein that we can see. Yeah, for sure, I mean I would agree with that, Like it's we don't need as much as we think we do. It's just a myth um And yeah, this sort of it's almost like there's this American like I have a right to the

amount of meat that I want kind of thing. And there's also been this cultural obsession for the last you know, many decades of trying to make meat cheaper and cheaper and cheaper, because there's just like fundamental human right to meet and it's like that doesn't actually make sense, and it's sort of this like false market that's been created, and it comes at tremendous costs to of course animal welfare, environment and actually I think our health as well. And

it's it's not on only American accept obsession. I think it's anywhere where there's affluence in the world, which is all over the world, meat consumption, dairy consumption um is on the rise, and yeah, I think it's just sensible and good for us to bring some reality to that.

Veganism and stuff is so much on the rise, especially amongst um younger, younger people, and I think that's wonderful for people to just have different meal patterns and to begin to uh just learn to eat in different ways and in different ways that sort of our body and so that we can all like as a culture begin to realize, like you don't have to eat a lot of meat in order to be an athlete or something.

You can be like a really strict careful vegan and who's also gluten free and whatever, and like be a weightlifter and all these kinds of things. Um to just sort of take away some of these essentialist um sorts of notions. I think is always good, Like it's all about us as individuals and what we individually need. And Leeann, I gotta say, we love the work that you've been putting out there, and we love your mission to help

people eat better on less money. And the fact that you also you put your money where your mouth is and you give away that cookbook that you wrote, which again will link to in the show notes. But yes, thank you so much for joining us working. How do money listeners find out more about you, about what you're up to and about your brand new cookbook? Awesome? Um, well, you can always go to Leanne Brown dot com. Just my name l E A and and E Brown just

like the color my website. And then I'm on Instagram is kind of the only social media I do any anything regularly on Leanne E Brown there. Yeah, and I'll be just trying to get the word out about good enough. You can border it now, that would be wonderful. Yeah, I'm just I'm so honored anyone wants to engage with my recipes, with my writing. Um, it's an absolute joy to be here, and I'm excited to offer anything and reach out any time. If anything resonates with you, I'd

love to hear it. All right, we'll be awaiting that Lean Brown TikTok page in your future, right about Leanne. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so it's fun, all right, Matt gotta love that conversation with Lean Brown. I feel like she's part food therapist, part book author, so true how to money co host. I feel like even though she's you know, craft beer isn't necessarily her thing, I feel like she uh speaks about food and approaches it in the same way that

we approach personal finance. Yes, And I think, well, you know, we've talked about this before, to that shame and guilt and how we need to avoid that when it comes to our money progress. And it's easy to compare ourselves to what other people have been able to accomplish, and if we do that, we're sending ourselves up for failure. And she's saying the same thing. With food, it's easier to see your neighbor and the nice meal they just turned out and maybe invited you over for, and you're like,

why don't I do stuff like that? But that's not what you're comparing yourself to. That's unhealthy and you're not going to make much progress that way. But what was your big takeaway from this conversation with Lean, Well, I want to continue to pay you back off of this conversation because it does have to do with that shame and guilts and what she's what she was really getting at, I think with good Enough with this new cookbook is that there's a mindset shift that takes place with how

it is that you cook. It's not necessarily about the nuts and bolts per se, It's not about you know, it is about some of the technique, but she's really speaking to the mindset shift that that takes place when you can think about cooking uh in a different way. And then she was talking about how that can empower you to make other positive changes in your life. And that is one what we try to do here on

the show when it comes to our money. Yes, we do talk a lot about the nuts and bolts, just like yes, she does talk about how the microplane is a affordable, great sool to spice up your dishes and you know, great whatever, fine cheese you want over that, Carbonara, and we do talk about the specific things and laws that are changing and the techniques when it comes to how it is that you can save and invest your money, but so much of it has to do with how

you mentally approach the money that you earn, the money that you spend, the money that you save. Because you can be doing all the correct things, but if you feel guilty about it, or if you feel that you're never making enough, those negative attitudes canna have a terrible effect on our ability to enjoy our money and to do things with it that we want to. So that one was a little more esoteric. I guess it wasn't that she gave the stamp of approval for all the

But yet, what was your your big take away? Well, yeah, I did appreciate that because we love all the and I'm glad she does too. But I think my big thing was really starts of the beginning of the conversation when she basically said, technique is greater than costly ingredients, and I think sometimes we think we need the finest stuff in order to cook well. And that was yeah, when we were talking about all that, she was saying that like the ingredients are great there. It's not like that.

It's a frugal first is cheap and you're making a trade off and you're getting the cheap stuff at all the and you're like, well, is it worth paying less? And those ingredients inferior quality are good enough? Yes they are. They're they're very good ingredients. She's not telling us to go to Whole Foods or whatever, you know, super high and local grocery that you have wherever you live. Just

learning a couple of basic techniques trying out. I think starting with some of those you know, low effort meals that she that she describes in this Newest cookebook, are are great ways to kind of get the ball rolling, because yeah, you don't have to go get the nicest stuff. Like I was just at Costco the other day, Matt, like I am, and there were I realized Ribby steaks were double the price that they were fifteen months ago, like double for real, And I was like, I'm not

eating Ribby like these days. Like it's a it's a very very like once you hear treat typically maybe twice um, but I'm like, well, I'm probably for going Ribbi for the foreseeable future until those prices start to come back down. And and that's the kind of thing though, it is. It's like there's ways to cook delicious meals that don't involve twenty dollar pound Rabbi exactly. No, I love it, man,

all right, let's go ahead and shift gears. Get back to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode. This was a stout that was barrel aged by our friend Jess uh and he and his friends brew under the name Easy Chair Brewing Garage. What were your thoughts on this beer? Alright? So I love that it was a barrel aged town because it had some of that I think he said Woodford Reserve barres. I forget what he said. Maybe was um trace ok alright, so yeah it had it had some of that whiskey note on

the finish. But at the same time, it was low a bv. It's like six percent, he told me. And so it's this nice, But usually a barrel aged sounds like mr boozy, because I don't know, does it actually pick up some alcohol, you know, like from the barrel? Maybe a little right, yeah, maybe a little bit. I'm not uh, we're not superversed and I'm not smart enough to know the craft brewing process, yes, but I would say it was delicious because I liked how it had

both those things going on. It was it was light enough with a little bit of that like bourbon finish on the beer, and like, what's better than a barrel aged out in January? Honestly, like not much. This was a great example of a homebrew stouts and crafted with care by Jess over there for sure. Yeah, crafted with love, and it was almost brewed like this. This isn't an overly heavy, thick, dark, clunky kind of stout right like it's.

It's kind of it's a very chipper, bright on its toes type of stouts while still incorporating some of those woody barrel aged notes. That's was a fantastic stout. I'm glad that you and I got to enjoy this one together, And a huge thanks to our friend Jess for donating this one to the show. Yeah, he drove it over, dropped it off on the stuff. So yeah, thank you, Jess. We appreciate it. I think he said they bottled this one like not even two weeks ago. It's pretty great.

So so it's fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh, all right, well, Matt, that's gonna do it. For this episode. We'll have links to both of the cookbooks we talked about today with Leanne in our show notes, up on our website at how to money dot com. That's all right, Joel, that's gonna be it until next time. Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,