Those We’ve Left Behind (with Shaka Senghor & Teresa Hodge)

promote the narrative that tech can help US citizen. But for this final episode, we really wanted to talk to someone who was coming at tech from a completely different perspective, honestly, almost a different world. We were close with R. G. Tongue trust me like I like you thought she was from a different planet, but I've confirmed that the Digital Minister of Taiwan does indeed live here on Earth with us.

In a world that already leaves so many behind. We wanted to focus on those who are intentionally kept out of the technological loop, because if I learned anything from my conversation with Crystal, it's that rewiring systems to benefit the many, not the few, well that can still leave out the few. And we can't citizen until everyone can citizen. And that brings me to our first guest of this final episode. I met him back in when I got invited to Detroit by none other than the M I T.

Media left. They were collaborating with folks in the city on some kind of design workshop to help with the city's renewal, and I didn't have a lot of history with Detroit. In fact, I had no history with Detroit. So I show up to this gathering maybe it's twenty pool, and it's different types of people. There's techie people who have clearly been doing tech a long time, there's designing people, there's entrepreneurs, and there's detroit people who clearly lived in

Detroit a long time. And this eclectic mix of folks was broken out into groups to help solve some problems. Even in that mix of people, even with all that diversity, I just laid out one dude stood out. He had dreadlocks, he had swag, he had a presence that was really undeniable, and that dude was shock a single what's up, bro, what's going on? Man? Super excited to see where we got going today? Me too. I love that the way we hang out is on the podcast This is Good.

This is Good. I want to start with you introducing yourself to people out there who might not know much about you. Well, first of all, I just think so much for having me on on. My name is Shaka san Gore. I am a writer. I am a dad, which is like the favorite title I hold. I'm also a tech executive at a company called Trip Accidents based out a Paula. Also, so my official title is head

of Diversity, Quality and Inclusiveness. My real title is Director of Dopeness, because that's the only thing that I want to do is do dope stuff with dope people. I love that you. I love the way you introduce yourself and this wide variety of titles, and a while ago in your life, the idea that you would be a tech execut might not have made that list. Just how does that feel right now? It's incredible at this point.

You know, when you think back on my journey, you know, a kid growing up in each Troy, growing up in the tough household, and to get caught up in that culture and experience all the horrors that come with it, you know, childhood friend being murder, being robbed, the gunpoint being beat nearly to death, three years later being shot, and then sixteen months after that shooting and tragically causing the man's death and subsequently being sentenced to seventeen and

forty years in prison. Yeah, tech probably wasn't the thing that would come to mind for most people. I served a total of nineteen years, seven of those years in solitary confinement. And what a lot of people don't know about my life as they see it now is that a lot of the things really kind of took shape and solitary confinement when I begin to write out a new way of looking at life and kind of giving

myself permission to dream big. During my Detroit visit, Shaka's role was as an ambassador to Detroit, but not only that, he was a reminder that any solution has to involve the people closest to the problem, that a city like Detroit wasn't just some blank slate, but have people who have been living there for decades and generations that needed

to be included in the process. A year later, Shaka and I would meet again, this time as formal directors fellows at the m I T Media Lab, a program that connected academia to the real world, challenging the notion of what it means to be an expert by bringing together people from all kinds of backgrounds of talking chess, grand masters and movie makers and regenerative gardeners, all to address various pressing issues. Shaka has since written six books,

including a memoir about his time in prison. He's actually working on another one right now. In he created the Live in Peace mentorship program and has become a leading voice in criminal justice reform. Today, he continues to work on the ground in Detroit. Shaka's story may seem unique. I mean, he's literally been interviewed by Oprah, but his experience is something many Americans have faced. And that's what

we're going to talk about today. What is it like to be a return citizen and our ever changing digital landscape, what happens when we leave an entire population in the dark, and how can we better support them so that we better support all of us. Today, we've got two incredible conversations lined up now back to Shotgun. Because of the title of this show is how to Citizen, and we we take it as a verb. You're a returned citizen, you know you're a member of a community that we

often banish from our concept of citizenship. So can you define what a returning or returned citizen is for some of our listeners. You know, when our first came home and I heard that word, I was like, Wow, this feels great, and I was so full of optimism and hopefulness. And what I thought, honestly, what happened is that I would come home and basically confess my sins to my community and say, you know, I really want to get

a job, that my dream as a writer. And what I didn't know is that there were so many barriers to re entry. You know, I didn't know that people would hold you hostage to something that had happened nearly two decades ago and say that you're unworthy of employment. I didn't know that people would rule you out as being eligible to rent a house or rent an apartment. And it was not only disappointing, it was devastating because I really wanted to become part of a contributing community.

So I have that taken away almost immediately, and to run into all these barriers like out of the gate, it really made me think differently about citizenship, and even to this day, I mean, you know, I've been on the eleven years, and there's things that come up that would shock most people when they think about where I'm at this point in my life and the things that

I still have to grapple with. But after a while, you get tired, you know, and it wears you down, and you're constantly having to explain to your child, we gotta go around this corner, up this block, down this alley, jump over this fence to get the basic things that comes with being a citizen. And despite that, I still believe that, you know, my my role in American society is one of contributing in a meaningful way to make

the world that we live in better. And it's one of the reasons I mentor and work with kids and schools um throughout the country. I can't imagine how much catch up you had to play just with technology in terms of how long you were incarcerated. So tell me how long were you incarcerated and what was your technology relationship during that part of your life. Yeah, So, you know, I laughed when I think about technology in prison, because it basically did not exist when I went to prison.

You know, our cell phones was like those big cinder blocks so I went in in n and so I came home June twenty two, two thousand ten, one day after my birthday. So it's two decades of just innovation and things had took place while I was inside. You know, when I came home, everything was new, I mean everything, you know, just an email, Like I had never heard of an email, Like, what is this thing that they're talking about? What you need for everything? You need to

put in a job application, you know, a resume. I was so ignorant to technology that I used to get into a consistent big ring situation with my then girlfriend at the time because I used to think a word document was the Internet. So every time I had to save something, I would ask her was it okay? Because

I didn't want to give the computer of virus. It's kind of funny now when you think about it, but it was a real pain point because I don't think that she quite understood the learning curve that it was literally the equipment of Fred Flintstone walking into an episode of The Jetsons, because that's what prison was. It was his cave like barbaric environment, and all of a sudden, I'm in the future where people can talk through screens. Mm hmm. I'm remembering when we first met back in

in Detroit. The M I. T. Media Lab had this mission to like help Detroit out. But before my visit, an earlier group had come to the city and you played a key role in vamp on the program, right, So tell me what happened on that trip before you and I met, because I'm pretty sure that my visit was like a lot different than the lab's original plan

and those small part thanks to you. What happened is I was invited to this event for my work that I was doing in Detroit around literature and mentoring young people, and they had a group of people in the room that didn't quite look like the Detroitors that I knew. These were people who were transplanted Detroitors. They were just moving in the real estate costs were low, and they were kind of reimagining what the city could look like.

And so what they were telling the director then at the time was that, you know, Detroit was a blank slate and that they can pretty much do anything that they wanted to. And I took offense to that, you know, because I thought about my parents, who have been in Detroite ever since they were born. I thought about my aunts, my uncle's, my neighbors, my friends, people who had never left the city, and what the city meant to them,

and so I basically stood up. I just said to them, I said, you know, this isn't the real Detroit, and if you won't experience the reality trade, I'm willing to take you on a tour. And I took them all throughout the city and every sexy you can imagine. I took them to the areas that had some of the toughest struggles, but also took them to some areas where it was prominent people who had lived there all their

lives and contribute greatly to the city. You know. I took them to urban farms, and I took them to Grandma's backyard gardens because I wanted them to see that urban farming wasn't a new thing. And from that experience was born this idea that they were bringing together people from all walks of life and come and work in collaboration with the people in Detroit to figure out if there was something we can build unique to the city's experience.

And so that's how you and I ended up meeting, Like you less such an impression, bro, and you were an ambassador to the city. For me, I leaned on that a lot, and I remember valuing the grounded perspective you just shared, and I was so excited a year later when we were reunited in Boston as director as fellows at the M I T Media Lab. So talk to me a little bit about your experience. I mean, I know what it was like for me, but why

did you participate? What was it like for you. I've never shared this with you, but I remember a day of us sitting at the table with some of the fellows and we were we were in in in my T Media lab, and I was just trembling inside because I felt so out of place. Um, you know, in my mind you all were just like intellectual titans and creatives and all these things. And I was like, wow, I'm I'm just you know, short of two years removed from prison and I didn't quite think I fit in.

And I remember the first day going into the lab. It was one of those moments where I was like, wow, like the future is like right here in this one space. I remember seeing these bionic legs and these robots and I was just like, this is this is just such, it's so bizarre. But I was so curious to lean in and learn even more. And then I started working with people there and I was like, you know, innovation

takes place everywhere. I've been innovating my whole life. You know, if you grow up in the hood and you have to make the best of the twols at your disposal, to improve the quality of life is something that you that never leaves you. And so when I got to the lab, I was like, man, we was doing this with no resources in the joint. I think I'm onto something right here. And so that's when I begin to get more comfortable with it. But initially I was really

intimidated by being there. And I'll tell you a quick story if we have time. When I was at Mr T Media Lab. One of the ways that I figured out that I fit in was when I did a prison hackathon and I came up with these five design challenges. You know how to make a tattoo gun out of a tape player motor, good child string in a in an ink, and you know how to make a stinger, which is how we heated up our award extensive cord of nail clippers, And how to make a lighter out

of batteries. What I thought what happened was that these brilliant students would solve them and they couldn't off none of these in three hours. And it made me think about the men and women inside who saw these things in thirty seconds to survive and what would happen if they had unfettered access to the resources that create technology. Mm hmm. How do you think the experience of incarceration would change if there were more access to technology inside

of prisons. I think there would be a lot of a lot of changes. I think that people on an inside would really be able to imagine a life for themselves beyond being in the prison cell. I met some of the most innovative people in prison, and there's an organization that I love that I just have, you know, great deal of respect for a car the last mile and they're actually showing what would happen. There's men and women inside of prisons right now as part of this

program that are actually building. Companies actually went to one of their demo days of Saint Quentin. Every and of those from an app that helps find missing children to one that lets parents track their kids grades g P and how about a voice coded trigger lock that can be traced by police if you've got to stolen. There's not a problem like that on the market. The program is and walking around and seeing what these men were creating, and how they were just so enthusiastic and hopeful and

full of light. And I was just like, man, I wish I had that experience on the way out of prison. I could have accelerated some things. But you know, to see it happening at this level now, to see people more open to it, it's really inspiring to me. So that's what I think what happened is more creativity, more innovation, and more companies built built by system impacted people. Shaka sing Gore, Director of Dopeness, a well earned title, my friend, my brother, thank you. In a lot of ways, Shaka's

story is exceptional. A man, against all odds, has been able to repent for his crimes, rise to the top of his field, and give back to his community in a big way. It's the type of story our society loves, inspirational, feel good, comforting. If taken out of context, it's almost too comforting because Shaka shouldn't be the exception, and he will be the first one to tell you that there are more than two million people incarcerated in the United

States today. In fact, the US is consistently ranked as the country with the highest incarceration rate per capita in the whole world. Given those numbers, how many Shakas are imprisoned today? People who have been cast aside despite their potential, those whose perspectives can be a real asset to our society, but we'll never get the chance. So please don't hold Shaka as an example that the system is working because

someone like him became a tech executive. Instead, let Shaka be a reminder to us, all of the potential innovators who are in prison today, that for every one of them who makes it, there are hundreds more who don't

get the chance. For mean, what's really heartbreaking is I never heard one person say I can't wait to leave prison to go back to prison, not one, And yet about the people who leave prison go back And it's because we don't allow them to connect back to society in a meaningful way and have that human capital restored. So what does it take to change the system so that stories like Chaka's become the norm? After the break? My conversation with Teresa Hodge, a return citizen who has

dedicated her life to answering that question. Teresa, what's up? Welcome, thank you, It's so wonderful to be here with you today. Teresa Hodge is the co founder and CEO of Mission Launch, an organization in the DC area that's dedicated to supporting individuals with the rest records and families impacted by mass

incarceration now. Mission Launch does this through an array of programs, including financial literacy workshops, a business accelerator for returned citizens, and even hackathons with the mission to improve post prison re entry. In addition, Mission Launch and Teresa have created Our three Score. This is an alternative to the background check that doesn't simply ask do you have a criminal record and ended that because we all know people are

much more dynamic than a simple yes no answer. Instead, our three score is a more nuanced algorithm that asks a series of questions that are better able to determine how someone might perform as an employee, a residence, a borrower, or something else. Think of it as a credit score that actually makes sense. Wouldn't that be nice? Their current initiative bank on a hundred million brings together both these efforts.

This campaign helps companies in schools rework their hiring, lending, and admissions practices so they no longer exclude folks simply for having criminal records, because that would exclude about a hundred million people. Basically, look Teresa's using tech and activism and her lived experience to improve the lives of millions of Americans. Can you tell me how the idea of Mission Launch came about? What was the moment? So the moment for Mission Launch came when I was sitting in prison.

I went to prison in two thousand and seven and began serving an eighty seven month federal prison sentence. That seven years, three months felt like a lifetime sentence quite frankly when it was given to me. The one thing I knew was in order to be relevant, I had to do something that concerned the prison, because after spending those many years in prison, the only thing that I would really know the most about was going to be prison.

But while I sat in prison and I listened to the stories of the women who I was incarcerated with, and I watched even more so a lot of women go to prison and come back, I just really began studying and trying to understand why were people coming back Because what I knew was prison life was no way of living, and people were coming back. There was a strong disconnect. Yeah, you've talked about how technology is essential and re entry for someone who's going to post incarceration.

What was the tech landscape like as you remember it before you were in carcerated back in oh seven. So when I went to prison, just to kind of help you understand where technology was, Facebook was what young people were using, my Space was around. And while I was in prison, a few days afterwards, Steve Jobs announced the first iPhone. There is a major breakthrough headed to American consumers. It's the iPhone, an iPod, a cell phone in a

portable internet all in a little lightweight package. Today Apple is going to reinvent the phone. And while I was in prison, people start tweeting and I couldn't understand what do you mean people are tweeting? What do you mean they're putting in an atmosphere? But who's in the atmosphere? What's going on? And what you understand is technology is a context sport. And so for the men and women

who are incarcerated, we have disconnected them. I can't even It's hard for me to imagine I stud in line for that first iPhone and the idea that I would be confined during that time and not even fully understand that that was happening. That's jarring, you know, like that someone changed the official language of your society and you come back in you don't quite speaking. Am I capturing some of what that must have felt like for you. There were a few things that I missed the most.

Technology was one. Popcorn was another. I'll show you. I need to show you how shallow I am, and that you know, and my family and I really missed. But it was the inability to use technology. And I am a person who wasn't early adopted to technology. You know. I really emphasized to a lot of young people before incarceration the importance of technology and the digital divide. I was teaching about it. So to find myself on the other side of the divide, it was just heart wrenching.

Mm hm. Take me to the day you're released. What do you remember about that day? I was released from prison August three, two thousand and eleven, and so I remember that day like it was yesterday, And what what did my daughter bring me an iPhone? And ya, I had been talking about technology. Did she bring you popcorn? That's the real question, you know, she did not bring me popcorn. She did not bring me popcorn. All right,

So your daughter shows up, she brings you an iPhone? Yeah? Yeah, Actually it was my daughter, my mother, one of my sisters, a niece, and one of my niece's girlfriends. And so it was two carfuls of women who took me to prison and a car fool that brought me back. I am just one of the fortunate few that take family with them and come back to family. So one just have to acknowledge that privilege. But it was an iPhone.

But I'll be honest with you, I was so overwhelmed because I did not have that level of connection to technology and just the phone ringing and trying to text and people calling and pictures popping up, and I felt some anxiety. And I didn't expect that I was in prison for five years, ten months away from technology, so all of those generations of technology, you know, that had taken place. Um. But I when I first came home, my daughter and I had made a commitment that we

were going to work together. And while I was in prison, you know, we had a conversation one day while she was visiting, and I had just read an article that said seven out of ten children who have an incarcerated parents are likely to go to prison. Seven out of ten, seven out of ten children. So it speaks to how we are locking families into this cycle. And as a mom,

I was heartbroken. My daughter graduated from college before I went to prison, and so we would sit and visit and have conversations, and we were able to maintain our relationship. But there were children that day playing outside who were visiting their aunts and grandmas and mothers and sisters. And I said to her, count ten children, and you tell me which three deserves not to go to prison. At

that moment, our partnership was formed. I already knew what I was going to do, but she decided that she was going to bring her skill sets to the table. And from there we just started entering business plan competitions, with me providing information and insights from the inside and her applying to competitions on the outside. Mm hmm, I'm stuck on the seven out of ten, you know, it's it's uh, it's by design. You know, when we look at racial wealth gap and all of these things, you

have to look at prison. It's unfortunate, but so many people who go to prison, they come from under resource communities and it's just the thing that happens. We'll be right back. Tell me what human capital means to you. I've seen you use that language and a lot of other conversations and describing some of your work. Well, I feel like for me that as humans, we all have

been given God given talent, we have strengths. It's the total sum of who you are, what you're able to do, how you see life in the world, and it's your ability to spend that in how you work, you live and play. And so for me, I feel like I'm on a mission to help restore that human capital that's lost when people are in prison and help people reconnect

back to society in a meaningful way. For me, what's really heartbreaking is I never heard one person say I can't wait to leave prison to go back to prison, not one, And yet about the people who leave prison go back, and it's because we don't allow them to connect back to society in a meaningful way and have that human capital restored. Yeah, when you use the word restore,

that's a powerful term to use because it's there. It's like ready for investment, right as ready for the return on that investment, and you sort of putting something back where it belongs, as opposed to we got to go find some human capital and go figure this thing out. It's like it's been figured. We just got to undo the harm that took it away from from all of us collectively. What are some of the things high on the list that you consider missing areas blind spots, whether

on your side or on society side. In terms of how we interact with people on their return, well, for me, I think that language matters. We don't have a good way of talking about people who go to prison and those same people who come back from prison, and so we use words that are so offensive, like expelling x con. We labeled them as criminals who wants to hire our criminal, who wants a criminal to move into their apartment? Right, No one even the language of returning citizen. When does

a person get to return? When is the punishment over? And when is that just another person that is occupying this world with us? And so for me, I think that we have to begin to humanize or rehumanize humans. We've turned over our prison system to our government. It is an out of sight, out of mind, and we have entrusted for far too long that they were doing what was best on our behalf, and that has not been the case. Today. One in three Americans having arrest

are conviction record. This is something we have to fix. By the year twenty thirty one million Americans while having arrest or conviction record. That's one into working age adults. This is not the problem of the seventy plus million people. This is all of our problem. And so I love your how the citizen, because this is something we all have to figure out. We're all stakeholders in this. Yeah, we are. I remember the first time I visited Rikers Island.

I had been living in New York for a decade and I've only seen it from the planes landing at LaGuardia, which until I visited Rikers, I thought LaGuardia was the worst place in New York City. And then I saw what we did to people who couldn't afford bail. I think what offended me most was I've been paying for this the whole time, and I didn't know I was investing in something and had no idea until I spent just one day was enough because we've got to stop this.

The way you put it, when do people return? What's the language you choose to use, and how do you encourage us to refer to this population we've been talking about. It's clearly not X felling an X con and maybe returning citizens isn't the j out. So what do you suggest? Yeah, we I feel like it is time for us to evolved.

I don't have the language, but I use human first language always, and so what you always hear me say is people with arrest or conviction records, because we are people first, you know, And when in doubt, it's time for us to learn each other's names. You know, that's a way to hold up. I'm all for humanization, but that's a step too far. Everybody's seven million people's name. I could take five years to say a sentence that's

that's amazing. And thank you for that because I heard you using it, and I was like, I think this is a conscious choice, So I will try to learn by that example. And I know you've been championing ban the box initiatives. Can you explain what that means. Absolutely, there are laws on in our government that make it where employers cannot discriminate against people when they are trying to get employment. You know, one of the economic pillars of our society is we want every able body to

be able to work well. When people have an arrest, are conviction record, employers are able to discriminate. It's a silent discrimination. I used to run an HR department years ago, and it wasn't until I came home from prison that I thought, oh my god, I was trained to discriminate. I was told look for the best candidate, find reasons to streamline hundred and fifty stack of resumes, And the truth is we would come up with our own matrix internally.

So there are internal policies that are often not written, but quite frankly, it's just culture, and that is we do not hire folks with records. So banning the box means that you cannot put on an application the box that says have you ever been convicted of a crime, So in one sense we are just delaying the discrimination. But still there's an opportunity for me to have a

conversation and maybe a human connection. When you use numbers like one in three Americans currently has an arrest or conviction record and by one out of two working age adults will will meet that same condition. Then it really is a wee problem, absolutely, and the discrimination it's vast. You know, we get to you've been out for several years and you come up with another way a score, uh, different kind of credit score, different algorithm. What is our

three score technologies? Our three score is a contextualized background check for the one in three Americans living with an arrest of conviction record. It provides dieting namic data. I like to say it's a criminal background check that needs a credit score. So when I was helping individuals who were entrepreneurs build their business, is one of the things I recognize is we could help them grow a business, but we couldn't get them access to growth capital because

of their background check. And a local community bank approached me. They were willing to make loans to individuals with arrest are conviction records, but they didn't know how to assess them. And so the proposition was, hey, Teresa, if you vet people for me and if you okay them, will take your word. Ah. So they were outsourcing to you yeah, And I thought, well, this is interesting, but it's not scalable for Teresa to do this on a regular basis. And yeah, and what if they missed the payment? Am

I now the collections department? But I understood the opportunity, and I thought, well, could I take what Theresa no and put it to technology and can I scale that? And could I then create something where other people could be seen differently. First, you have to understand that a criminal background check is a very static document. It only tells you if a person has a criminal record. That's all that tells you yes or now. It's a buying everything yes or no by andary, yes or now. And

it maybe give you citations. Well, if you don't know how to read all these citations, you maybe don't understand the difference between something as minimal as jaywalking and something that you might be a little bit more you know, scared of. You don't understand the time away from crime and some of the other factors that might need to go in. And so when that banker bought his problem to me, our three score was born. And so we wanted to create a data rich algorithm that allowed us

to look at people are dynamic. You know, we are not static, So yes, we don't hide the fact that a person has a record, but we add alternative data that we think is also important for you to know, Like what based upon my age, how long I've been away from the criminal activity, how long I've been home from prison, how active I am in my community. Those are all factors that indicate that I am less likely to commit a crime than someone who has not committed

a crime today. And that is evidence based research that is already out there. So we brought in all the evidence based research that was out there, and then in addition to the evidence based research, it's just the nuance of people, because when you think of seventy million people with an arrest or conviction record, it's not a monolithic

it's not one person. But yet decision makers when they see that a person has a criminal history, their mind goes to the worst possible offenses and they make decisions that they can't take the risk. And really all they're looking for is like, give me a little bit more information about this person. And we are a third party

validator of additional information. We sell contexts, We sell context You're doing so much with this, Theresa you're First of all, I think you're you're using data to humanize people, and so much of our modern experience with data is the opposite. It strips us of our humanity. It puts us in these little market segments so that we can be auctioned off to the highest bidder. And I have I had my own strong objections to that. I like seeing an

example of data being used to restore someone's humanity. I also think that in a nation like ours, where we've criminalized so much, it's meaningless to have a criminal record. If if we're approaching one and two working age people, then what's even the point of the background check. Absolutely, I want to acknowledge you because I think what you're doing is brilliant and amazing, and it's restoring a lot of my hope and faith in the possibilities of what

we can do with all this tech stuff. I want to ask you about one more initiative, which is bank on one million. What is that? Why is it needed? Well, when you think of the criminal justice system, it's complicated, complex and convoluted. And I thought that just helping entrepreneurs was enough, but then I was like, oh, I gotta create something for people to interpret them and understand. Well, now that we've created a tool, now it's like, oh

my gosh. Corporations need implementation and understanding and they need programming. So Bank on a hundred mill is a platform. And I'm I am so done after this. I'm like, I've done enough. You know, you just enjoy and us sis to retire and enjoy some life after president after all of this. But so bank on a hundred million, this is an opportunity for us to decide collectively to broader us. How are we going to treat our brothers and sisters

who have an arrest or conviction record. And it's a way that you can come on a platform and learn. There will be educational information, case studies. We're going to provide all of that. If you're a corporation and you want to do better, be better, there's a pledge for you to take and we offer consulting and we offer the tool, and we can help you understand some policies

and procedures. So for me, I brought my body of work together on the Bank on a hundred million platform, and I'm inviting the stakeholders in America to come and let's solve this problem together and let's put people back to work so that they can be productive and help grow our country. I think it's possible that the next big idea, the next UH solution, the next you know cure, could be sitting inside of an American prison and that they can come home and be extremely productive. The question

only is will we let them? Mm hmm. Our major theme for this season has been can we find stories that show us tech that actually helps us citizen? How do you think we should be using tech to help the lives of of return to returning citizens rather than making it harder. So, for me, our goal is to become the gold standard quite frankly, for how we vet nessess individuals who have arrest are conviction records. We have

to stop turning this system over to our government. We have to get involved, We have to become active citizens around this. You know, if you're not sure how to do it again, that's the reason why we're creating this platform where you can come and learn. One place you can come learn how you can get engaged and you know, just help put some of the folks who have served their time back to work, restore lives and in that cycle of families going to prison. Yeah, that that is

the wrong kind of family business incarceration. We've been asking people and you've already started answering what they would encourage our our listeners to do. What would you want someone to reflect on or challenge internally on this topic. I throw data and statistics around, but if there's one piece of data, America has five per cent of the world's population and twenty five per cent the world's prisoners. Are we that bad? Are the people of the country bad?

Or our our policies and how we've done this bad? And if we do nothing else, just this is a time for us to see this issue differently. It costs too much, it destroys lives, and it is just time for us to see one another. I can assure you every time I present people like shopped and gasp at the statistics. But afterwards someone comes up and when I hear their voice drop, I know what's getting ready to happen. They say, my father went to pression, my mother went

to prison. It's time for this to stop being America's dirty little secret. Period. Teresa, Hi, you're a Dovis. Thank you so much forgiving for asking yourself that question. And answering it every day with what you're doing, and for using tech to humanize us and help us see each other as people. First, I'm so glad that we've had this opportunity to talk to you. Thank you so much. I am glad for the invitation and let us have brunch together. Yeah, when I'm next in town. I mean

I live in California. I was so thrilled to talk with Teresa because she's doing so much of what we talked about on this show. She's using her power to benefit us collectively and specifically with tech. She's creating new algorithms that actually center justice. She's proof that tech doesn't have to rip us apart or dehumanizes, but that we can choose to use it to do the opposite. And she's wrapping my hometown of d C. So you know,

there's a lot of love there. We started this season asking where tech went wrong, but we intentionally spent most of our time with the people who are fixing it, who are building tech to help us citizens. And what they're building is so damn cool. But that's not even the most inspiring part. It's the people behind the innovation that inspires me. For too long we've been living in a tech dictatorship, one where a select few get to

call all the shots. But our guests are rejecting that narrative and a fighting to bring humanity back into tech. Even if you don't identify as a tech nerd, you've got to admit that's add As I thought I was making a season about tech, it turns out I was making a season about rebels. I've always been broken. They will never give me money. So now the gloves have totally come up. If you can't bid them, make them obsolete. And then at the same time, we have to radically

reinvent the incentive structure of social media. So nothing big, nothing big that I'm a seat at the table isn't the same thing as a voice at the table. You know, don't push the conversation, take time, take patients, move at the speed of trust and care. Before speaking with all these incredible people, even I Baritune day, the techno Optimists, Thurston will admit I was starting to lose faith that

we could reclaim tech for the collective. There's so much evidence and news and examples that pessimistic point of view. But speaking with my big sister at the start of this journey. She reminded me of the magic my mother instilled in us to be critical, but most of all, to never stop imagining what's next. My mother never had the opportunity to thrive creatively at work. If she had,

I know she would have created something spectacular. Seeing all these people using tech for beautiful things, it makes me feel like a little bit of her is still here. And if I accomplished one thing this season, it would be the past down my mother's imagination when it came

to tech. But Linda described her as becoming, you know, dealing with whatever the past layers were, but but always having the courage to continue to reach toward whatever it is that she could see and that she wasn't done, she was not ending, she was still living and um she was still becoming. Just because tech has been in one thing for us doesn't mean it can't become something else, something better. Just because we think one way doesn't mean

we can't become someone better. So the question is what are you going to become? And now, for our crowd favorite, the part of the show where we put you in and give you ways to citizen, it's time for some action, all right. For personal reflection. The United States has five percent of the world's population and of the world's prison population. Now ask yourself the question Teresa wants us all to ask, Are we that bad? No? X? Let's get informed about

who's leaving the spaces we spend time in. I want you to take stock of the companies whose products and services you use the most, the nonprofits you may be supported. Let's take a look at their boards and senior leadership. Do those people reflect the experiences of the communities they serve? And while you're in a learning mood, check out Shaka's ted talk why your worst deeds don't define you. Finally, for ways to publicly participate, let's citizen with those who

have felony convictions the Last Mile. This is an incredibly effective organization that prepares incarcerated individuals for successful re entrigued and I want you to support their work with your money, with your time in terms of volunteering, or better yet, hire their graduates. Get your employers to hire their graduates. These actions and links are in the show notes on your device in front of your face and also on our website at how do citizen dot com. Because this

is the last episode, of season three. Let me also say thank you to the team at dust Light Productions. Y'all don't even know. This is a really, really, really really dope group of people. And I want to thank Ali Kilts, who writes for me almost as good as me. Uh, my assistant Layla being a who helps you know the calendar not be wild. I want to thank Matthew Lai, who came in midstream as our apprentice and stepped up

and produced the heck out of things. I want to thank Sam Paulson, who was our apprentice on season two, full law producer in season three and delivered some stellar guests and great episodes to the mix. Stephanie, our editor who produced on season two edited on season three. Stephanie, every time I feel like I'm a little lacking in the video, I do jumping jacks. That's an inside joke, but you understand what I'm saying. To Mika, Oh my goodness.

To Mika, our our lead producer, crushing it. Thank you for especially your calm in so many storms. Misha and Arwin, thank you, Thank you. Thank you who helped run us Light and have provided valuable notes, guidance, and insight along the way. There's another group that's been involved with this season. Uh. They're a group called Civics Unplugged, and we actually featured them in the very first season of How To Citizen. I don't remember the episode number, but go back and

check them out. They've been really stepping up to help us out with the digital If you've been enjoying the new How To Citizen Instagram experience, that's due to the gen's ears at Civics unplug and we are going to collaborate with them even more so. Thank you, especially to to Nazi, to Chabou, to Julia uh and to Josh over at Civics umplug uh and and last but not at least, I said this at the end of season too.

I'll say it again at the end of this season to my wife, my life partner, executive producer, co creator of this show with me, Elizabeth, you are the producer closest to my heart and you have really helped elevate what we're doing here. So to the listeners out there, you've heard my voice. There is a whole team of people behind it, giving me things to say, helping me find people, pushing me to be better, challenging me and

pushing me to citizen and especially thank you. Thank you for listening, thank you for engaging, Thank you for citizening. This is a team sport. Stay tuned to us at how do citizen dot com find us on Instagram? At how do citizen tag us in your citizen practice? Hashtag it and connect with others doing the same, or don't we We don't need you to find us on Zuckerberg property, the metaverse or whatever. We need you to engage with

each other in the world. This thing that we're doing as a collective as a people requires belief, requires faith, and requires reminders that we can still do good stuff, that we're not just subjects in somebody else's kingdom. When it comes to technology, where we're spending so much of our time, all of our emotions, our money, our family connections,

our politics, it's all there. It's very important that we exercise our power, that we determine how we're going to use this to meet our human needs individually and collectively, that we use tech to citizen So I will see you somewhere in the world, and I hope you will see each other as well. Keeps citizen in y'all, keeps citis in In In You, How Do? Citizen with Baritone is a production of I Heart Radio podcast and dust Light Productions.

Our executive producers are Me Barryton Day Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, and Misha Yusuf. Our senior producer is Tamika Adams, Our producer is Ali Kilts, and our assistant producer is Sam Paulson. Stephanie Cohne is our editor, Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Laie as our apprentice. Additional production help from rwin Nicks, original music by Andrew Eapen, with additional original music for season three from Andrew Clauson. This episode was

produced and sound designed by Ali Kilts. Special thanks to Joel Smith from I Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at dust Light Production.