How to use your muscles — or risk losing them (w/ Bonnie Tsui)

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You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. This episode that you're about to hear is a really special one because we went out in person to meet with today's guest, Bonnie Tsui. She's the author of the books On Muscle and Why We Swim. And I got to talk to her about exercise and strength and the surprising ways that muscles affect all aspects of our lives. But I didn't just talk to her. I went surfing with her and I did a humiliating workout.

And we filmed the whole thing for a short film and video series that we made. I'm genuinely so thrilled with how it turned out. I think it is so fun and so funny and really different than anything else we've made. You can watch that video series now on Ted's YouTube channel.

So please check that out. But first, listen to this episode. Here's Bonnie. You know, if you stopped 100 people on the street and asked them, what do you think of when you think of the word muscle? I think there is a very specific kind of body. stereotypically and a very particular kind of person who gets to have that body and oftentimes it's someone who's in the gym, someone who's a bodybuilder, someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger, right? And I think that

What I learned from the last several years of researching on muscle is that it goes so much deeper than that. And that strength is something that also is very metaphorical.

And I couldn't help but, over the course of writing this book, start to think of muscle as a philosophy where there are all these characteristics of muscle, the tangible stuff, right? So strength and... form and you know action that it is the stuff that actually moves us and flexibility and endurance and these are not just qualities of muscle but

They are qualities that we strive for in personhood. And I think that's very moving. That's very profound. And so to kind of like think about the body as...

not just this vehicle we occupy for a certain period of time on earth but it is something that if we think about it in a certain way it elevates like who we want to be in the world. Muscle is something that you can only get stronger you can only strengthen a muscle by stressing it by pushing it by challenging it and that's something that i think we all understand we can look at life as something that

always is stressing us, is always throwing these challenges at us. And I was just a really good life lesson. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but we will be back with more life lessons in just a moment.

We're talking muscles, capability, and what it means to be strong with Bonnie Tsui. Hi, my name is Bonnie Tsui. I'm a journalist and author of the books On Muscle and Why We Swim. And I write a lot about... the body and movement and humans in the world. So Bonnie, you wrote the book on muscle. What did writing a book about muscles teach you about how to actually make your muscles stronger?

I felt my body tensing as you asked that question, which I think indicates that I've really internalized this lesson of we all need to be using our muscles and lifting heavy. I know that is an intimidating thing to hear, especially because so much of the population has not been told that. But I think what has been a sea change over the last several years even really like the last like year and a half is that the kind of strength training and

weightlifting that has long been historically like this province of men and again like these bodies that are particular kinds of bodies. That is something that the medical establishment, your doctor. will be telling you and your mom and your grandmother is it that is something that they have to be doing and I think that is incredible and also something that expands the idea of muscle for all of us, right?

I think understanding that muscle is not just for looks like having a beautiful muscular body is one thing but I think this all goes back to what I learned from growing up having the dad. had who was not just an artist but a martial artist. I think this was so integral to my growing up in getting me to understand from a very early age that the body is beautiful because of what it can do. right and so to strengthen your muscles to go to a gym to like lift heavy to go you know it is not

about looking good, although of course we all want to look good, right? Like it helps us to reinforce that we are projecting an image of ourselves that we think is like the right image or like who I am or what the presentation of myself in the world, my identity. If you understand that these muscles that you're building are helping you to live a better life, a longer life, a healthier life, one that helps your...

cognitive health like your muscles are always talking to your brain and having conversations that you don't hear. I think that's really cool. One thing that I learned was that muscles are not just for like moving you around mechanically but they are an endocrine tissue and so they're always talking they're super chatty they are releasing these signaling molecules that travel all around your body to talk to all these different parts of it including your brain

and are telling your brain to do certain beneficial things and then your brain says okay and then starts doing them and then there's this like beautiful conversation that's happening and that flow like this beautiful wash of like molecules all around your body to make you feel good. You said that pretty much everyone, like there's this big change that now pretty much everyone should be lifting heavy. So I want to ask you how and why?

I don't personally, just for me. Right now, I almost never lift weights. That's just not really a thing that I do. I would be shocked to learn if my mom was lifting weights. So what should we be doing? And then why should we be doing that? What is the thing that has actually changed about that? Most of us understand that as we get older, we lose bone mass, right?

Most people have heard of osteoporosis and they're like, oh, you know, I got to strengthen my bones and as I get older, you know, there's like an age-related loss of bone and that's called osteopenia. Same thing happens with muscles and less people are familiar with the fact that...

in your 30s, sorry everyone, you start losing muscle and it's normal, right? So it's like age-related muscle mass that happens like whether or not you're an athlete or it is normal for everyone and So what that really means is that in your 30s you need to start thinking about who you want to be and what you want to be capable of doing in your 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond.

and I think a lot of people don't think that way but I think if you understand that lifting heavy just really means like it's hard, it feels hard. And so you lift a weight that is challenging for you. And then I like to tell people that that means only means that you have to lift it like eight to ten times and then you're out of there and then you come back and you're like to work all the different parts of your body in ways that will challenge them and then when that weight gets

lighter and easier, then you kind of move on to the next one. And I think the point is like all kinds of movement is important, all kinds of exercise, the stuff that really brings you joy. And adding folding in like the weightlifting is like resistance training.

That you can do that by going to the gym. You can do that with friends. You can do that psychologically. You do need a little bit of activation energy to start, right? But most gyms give you a free... session with a trainer and you just be like honest with like that person what do I want to be doing with my life that I can't do I want to be able to get that can off the high shelf I want to be able to go up the stairs without feeling this way I want to be able to like

pick up my grandkids when I see them. It's like small things like that doesn't have to be that But it could be that you want to do an Ironman, you want to swim to this late age in your life, but that all of that is supported by your muscles in a way that I think people don't realize.

Actually, a thing that people ask me all the time about this show is like, what have you actually changed in your life from episodes? And often my answer is like, not much. This might be one where I do something different. What should I do? And then what should I tell my mom? Like, hey.

you and i are both going to start lifting weights yeah what actually does that mean you've probably got friends and i think that if you start asking around you will find that many people now have folded weightlifting into their lives in ways that

They're kind of quietly doing it. And then they'll tell you, I started weightlifting. I started weight training. I started powerlifting, which is like these three very specific movements that are kind of classic, you know, deadlift, bench press and squat.

and people you may not have thought would be doing this are doing it and they feel amazing they feel strong and capable and they see incremental changes like day to day and then like suddenly it's like weeks and months and years and you you've changed and I think the thing with muscle that's so inspiring is that It is one of the most adaptable tissues in the body. That is empowering. That is profound. And it is always changing from the moment you wake up to the second you go to bed that...

It is responding to changes in the environment and you are responding to like what is needed of you. I will say that I'm in my late 30s and the number one change that I've noticed is that like...

My body has shifted in ways where I'm like, oh, like there's like a little more stuff here and like my shirt fits differently and they're like not... causing me a lot of distress but they're not like welcome changes either i'm not like great work body i love that you like schlumped over a little bit more and this is kind of telling me like i could do a little bit every day and yeah it wouldn't be necessarily about like aesthetic changes yeah it would be about

functional changes for the rest of my life. Exactly. And one thing I'll sort of fold in too is that like when you do something like... weight training and it is like these small daily incremental changes that add up to big changes. That's something that is tangible. That is like a physical thing you feel in your body every day.

There's something I was so moved by in your book. You talked about how, along the same lines, you talked about how weightlifting can reframe your self-perception. We can change the way we think about ourselves by the way we change our muscles.

It's not just about self-presentation. It's not just about how you look. It is about what you can do with those muscles and what your body can now do that you've changed. What does that actually mean? But you, in the book, as a researcher... trip went and visited with the strongest people on the planet who are quite literally like have lifted the heaviest weights imaginable pushing the boundaries of what humans can actually lift you talk about how the strength community

is actually really inspiring to you in ways that are surprising. Because it's not just about, can I lift a 600-pound rock? Right. So I'd love to have you read this quote. But the strength community's insatiable curiosity about the human body is something I find surprisingly moving. To know one's own strength. I've come to understand the meaning of these words not as a binary statement. an I do or an I don't, but as an ongoing process of discovery. Muscles matter.

They allow us, in an observable way, to see what we can do. Though you may not initially know what you're capable of, you have vast reservoirs of potential waiting to be tapped, for just the right moment to be revealed. First of all, I think that's such a beautiful and inspiring way of framing it. And it makes me curious, like, how do we know our true potential? I think that we don't know until we try. And I think that's both...

the beauty and the terror of trying. Physical demonstrations of strength and particularly public demonstrations of that have been something that we have done as human beings for

as long as we have history, right? And what does that mean? I kind of think about this like from a, you know, sort of prehistoric primeval stone age kind of way where it's like, it's like a primitive demonstration of leadership skills what we would call leadership skills now which is absent other metrics how do you demonstrate that you i'm capable of leading this fishing vessel out to sea for you know two weeks so i can feed my village

Or, I am capable of leading our forces into war to conquer that land for you. But now, we still have remnants of that. To physically demonstrate strength is something that... wows us all and we still respond to it and so like what does that mean these days like there is a cultural currency still when you see an athlete doing something incredible like we I mean we watch these things because

to see them in person means something because our bodies talk to each other our bodies doing things in front of other people says something and that's what our muscles are allowing us to do

Towards the end of the book, you say, physical effort still means something in human society. To suffer physically for someone, to use your body to show that you've tried hard, it has value. It's an essential way to demonstrate commitment, to earn the exchange. And I think that's true, right? We think about like... you know i would walk across the planet for you i would i would jump on a grenade

Take a bullet, right? Like, the physical act matters in human relationships, but it also matters in our ideas of ourselves. Like, I didn't think I could do that, and then I could. These strength competitions...

I think there's something really funny about them too, because they often can surprise us. It's funny, but there's also something revealing about the way that we think about muscle and status and strength. When the expectation is upended. that I think it's wonderful, but some people feel very uncomfortable with it. And I think that leads into the story with Jan Todd, who was at one point the strongest woman in the world.

how we think about women in this continuum of strength right so like if strength has been long the province of men and masculinity like what does it mean when a woman can pick up manhood stones right so like these stones of strength um she was the first person to lift the scottish stones of strength known as the dinny stones they weigh 733 pounds

You know, back in the day, lifting these big, heavy rocks, these particular big, heavy rocks in Scotland and in other cultures like menthe, you were no longer a boy. You're now a man. Yay. And so if a woman can pick them up.

Does that just like erase the meaning and the significance of that feat now? And so I think some people, because these are cultural touchstones, literally, because they have... long held the significance when that's disrupted we have to reorient ourselves to that and to ask ourselves like what do muscles mean what does strength mean in this society in our culture now but i think you also point out a really interesting flip side of that which is if

strength and muscle are ways of understanding our true potential and how strong we are and how it's actually can be much greater than we would have expected. It's also true that then seeing someone like Jan Todd, lift these weights that was thought to be impossible for a woman, it then changes the way that other girls or women or people who wouldn't have seen themselves as able to do that, that they think about their own potential too. Yeah. And I think that's...

Therein lies the importance of seeing someone who looks like you doing something that you want to do or that you never imagined you could do. And then it's also so instructive for us to see that. Sometimes it is like small daily incremental changes that then lead to bigger changes. And now we are in a place where, you know, there is an Arnold Strong Woman contest. And I think that's also a very...

profound lesson for how to be in the world that sometimes you don't see those gains for a long time but that doesn't mean that you're not changing. I want to talk a little bit more about this idea that

Men are definitely naturally stronger than women. And that you talk about how so much of the strong women competitions prove that like the idea that we have about that That it's men are stronger than women rather than some people are stronger than other people is really based on a Potential and an encouragement like

If you only encourage a certain group of people to lift heavy weights, then you're not going to know how heavy a weight another group of people could be. I think that, you know, for the most part, and I think we all kind of understand this to some extent, that... you know muscles that come with puberty and particularly male puberty and then also like just bone growth that on average in our aggregate like men are as a category are bigger taller

stronger physically than women because of these changes that happen biologically. But that doesn't mean that there aren't some women who are stronger than some men and all that some people are stronger than that because there is a huge variation in that and so just because of that biological fact doesn't mean that women can't do those things. And I think that that's something that we've gotten kind of a little bit stuck on.

Which is, if you think categorically about people, you lose all of the nuance and individuality and you then start to say to a group of people, you can't do that, or this isn't for you. Some people... are stronger than other people because that is what it is it's not necessarily men or women and so i think that's where much of the kind of limiting factors on who gets to be strong are often

But it also strikes me that, you know, to get political for a moment here, we're at a moment where there's a lot of policing of the boundaries of gender. And one of those... Ways that it's policed is like if you are a woman You will certainly not be strong in these ways. You will not look like this and if you are a man

you will be stronger and you will have these feelings and you will do this thing. And that's not even to say of people who are trans or non-binary, but we've already seen this happen with like athletes where they're doing sex testing or they're... questioning accomplishments of women who are extremely successful because it's too successful. It's not feminine enough. A lot of the research that you did in this book, actually, it really undermines

In a good way, it undermines these arguments about, like, there is one way that a person should look and that that is a woman and that is a man and that there's only one type of each thing. I think it's very clear that... What's considered acceptable and in fact attractive and like ideal in terms of the body for a man has always been bigger, always been a larger range.

than what has been afforded to women, right? Like women have much narrower, have been told that they have to fit in a much narrower category of what's beautiful, what's feminine, what's considered attractive and then also like if you step outside of that like that's where the phrase too muscular to me really like it kept catching on my ear and i kept asking myself like well what does that really mean

Like, what are you saying when you say someone is too muscular? Oftentimes it's used to describe a female athlete or a female body that doesn't belong. And I put that in air quotes or is wrong. Why is that? And if you kind of like look at some of the instances in which this happened, like Serena Williams, when she was playing tennis and dominating and winning and being, you know, basically an extraordinary tennis player.

She was told that her body was too muscular. She was given lots of interviews about this and she's like, well, why is that? I mean, why am I told that my body is too this? And then like the next week that it's too sexy, too racy. It's mushing up all of these ideas. of like race and gender and also like who belongs in a like a white dominated sport like tennis.

For the longest time, it was like these particular bodies and these particular people who are playing tennis. I think oftentimes when someone comes along and doesn't fit what has been before, they are told they're two something. Of course, she is seen as this. extraordinary talent who transformed the sport, but at the time, a disruption.

we don't like disruption in our culture. And so when that happens, sometimes we don't know what to do with it. Or like with Misty Copeland, being this incredible pioneer Black. ballet dancer she was often told she's like why am i being told that my you know my body is too muscular again it's like is it like this is i'm being told this because i am too black i am

a body that doesn't belong in this white dominated space of ballet. And I think just to kind of like peel back some of the layers on this and kind of like do a close read of like what this is actually saying, you start to understand like these arguments fall away.

And it has to do with like changing norms. You in the book talk about many of the professional athletes, like highest level athletes, Olympians, for many of the female athletes. they talk about having a performance body and then an appearance body. Because there is this clear gap between what is best for what they do and what is best for living in a world that doesn't necessarily want them to look like that.

living in a world in which you're being told to look a certain way and this is acceptable and you don't even it's not even that you have to be told that you just absorb it you know from these images that you see in media that this is the body that is considered beautiful for a woman. I was so struck by these research studies for these NCAA athletes, across many sports, these women who were excelling.

And talking about how proud they felt about their strong muscular bodies on the playing field, like performing, like their bodies, allowing them to do these amazing things. And again, this goes back to like form and function.

The form that their bodies were taking allowed them to perform this amazing function in a sport that they love and wanted to do. And yet... ask them questions about the appearance side of things like you know in social settings like you know going clothing shopping they're just like my jeans fit weird or these shirts hang odd on me and I put on

a lot of makeup so I can appear feminine in my hair a certain way and I wear skirts and dresses because I want everyone to know that I am like feminine and pretty and all this stuff and the fact that these girls have to perform this calculation that they can't be proud of their bodies in the appearance context to me was really, it was very eye-opening. I feel like this is such a vivid example of like, you should just be able to...

be the most functional and most fulfilling version of yourself without having to worry about where that fits into a narrative that doesn't serve you. Right. That you shouldn't be coming off the soccer pitch, say. as a female athlete and then feel like you have to shoehorn yourself into some other self to operate in that world, in that context. Those worlds, I think.

wouldn't be amazing if you could walk off court you know walk off pitch like get out of the water and just feel like i'm the same person and i am gorgeous and feminine and powerful, and all of those things go together. You wrote an article recently about your own experience with your own body and feeling like... how there was starting to be some more acceptance of having broader, stronger shoulders. Right.

big shoulders are in i argue that they never were out you know this was a an article for l magazine and it was really interesting to unpack some of the pop culture stuff and talk about trends But really, I see this across the arc of a much longer timeline, right? Where there is a much more expanded acceptability for women in terms of body image and body presentation but it is not big enough yet and it will contract and expand as we see like really i mean the cycle of this happens

It can happen seasonally, but we are moving in the general direction of that expansiveness. We're going to be back with more from Bonnie in just a moment. This episode is brought to you by Bombas. This time of year can feel like sensory overload, but we're all still chasing that cozy fall feeling. And Bombas makes it simple, with socks, slippers, and apparel designed for everyday comfort.

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the way that muscle and that training strength can shape your potential and your understanding of yourself. I think this is a natural time to talk to you a little bit more about your dad and the way that your dad Changed your understanding of your own potential and the way that muscle played into that so for people who aren't familiar who haven't already read your book your dad was An incredible illustrator animator, but he was also

a martial artist who trained with Bruce Lee. He went to the same high school as Bruce Lee. In Hong Kong. I trained academically with Bruce Lee. Of course that's what I meant. I love how the story is kind of like... He trained academically. He is Bruce Lee. He is Bruce Lee. One time he saw Bruce Lee. Your dad, it was very important to him growing up. You have a brother.

And not just your brother, but you. It was really important that both of you were strong and took care of your bodies as much as you took care of your mind. Yeah, he was a professional artist.

when i was growing up and he did a lot of he was a freelance artist he was a commercial artist and so he did everything from movie posters to book covers the choose your own adventure books and you know advertisements and like the posters for the olympics and and he also was practiced many martial arts including he had a black belt and karate and he did taekwondo and he just enjoyed a life of the body and exercise and had a practice that he incorporated us.

from when we were toddlers really like you know he grew up in a time in Hong Kong when actually it wasn't really exercise was not really a thing but his dad was unusual for his time in that he would take him spearfishing and swimming and was also like emphasizing that these things are important and he so when i was little he was always having us practice martial arts with him in the garage and then we would run after dinner at like 10 o'clock at night to

like my pediatrician's office had like a parking lot that was like a mile away I mean after at 10 p.m. we would be running in the dark after him and he'd be like come on guys and then we would get to the parking lot and my brother and I would just like kind of pretend to beat each other up while he's like running laps around the parking lot and we'd run home and like the lightning bugs and i just have such a memory a sense memory of that and then also he would

bring us up in the studio to paint and like do little projects that were tied to his projects and he would like pay us like 20 bucks to like paint a basketball or something like that or he would give us Marvel comics and be like okay this is we're gonna do some anatomy lessons and then we just were ended up reading the comics and he was so mad at us but that we you know that this was something that was like this was in our life this was daily life

and i think when my grandfather died he died very young he was 64 of a heart attack and that was like a real shock for my dad that he you know i think he always thought maybe he wasn't going to make it that long And so he kind of doubled down on this exercise stuff and this commitment to pushing back against mortality, I guess. I really do think about it like that. What do you think your dad...

wanted you to get from physical strength? I think at first it was more that he actually wanted us... to be his playmates he actually said that he's like i wanted to train you up to be my little ninjas you know and but i think he wanted us to understand that it was important as important as all the academic stuff i mean i actually have no memory of my parents pushing us academically you know stereotypical asian parents like that was not a thing and it was really important to have a sport

So like when we were, we played soccer when we were really little and then we hated soccer and so our parents sat us down one day and was like, you have to pick a sport. so you either do soccer or you keep swimming and we said swim team because we just hated like getting our shins kicked in and so we did swim team for a long time you know until we left for college and it was like the best thing because it

We learned how to be on a team and we learned how to, I guess, take pride in what our bodies could do. You also talk about how your dad trained you and your brother in martial arts and how... I mean this is almost like one of the classic things that everyone who studies martial arts says. Montage! Training! Karate kids! But like one thing that everyone always says is like it's actually not about like how to fight.

Like, if you're a martial arts master, the whole point is that you don't have to fight. That you find ways to avoid the actual use of the physical conflict. I'm thinking about these classic instances of like... living in new york and walking down the street and just having people say to you and as a woman you get that quite a lot and every time there is this physical reaction

and whether you react or not. There have been a few times in which I just shout back, I talk back, and I feel like my body reacting in a way that is like...

that it is ready for a fight, it's sporting for a fight, but I don't like go and punch the guy, pop him in the teeth because he said something disgusting to me. I don't know that this is like something that I want to tell people to do, which is to like... fight people or be ready to fight them but i think there is a lesson here in that you want to be able to stand up for something you believe in and that

maybe that is something that my dad taught me like with this physical training which was to not necessarily confront anyone but if something is unjust to speak up and actually be prepared to stand your ground for that. I think that not being as timid physically does do something to how you see yourself as a person in society.

in the world. But I think another big thing that comes up with people with muscle, especially thinking about muscle, is when things go wrong. Yes. If I was going to name my top three most thought about muscles, like probably number one would be like...

Abs six pack and that's purely appearance where I'm like I don't have that Oh, what would it take to get that? But then number two is my shoulder because I had an injury from when I was like in high school that has kind of Ebbed and flowed of pain in my shoulder

and so like shoulder muscle always think about that and then similar hand like it's great when it doesn't hurt when it hurts all that i can think about is my hand is hurting i was just thinking about how my back is getting sore uh-huh okay back back is one for you what are your other top three my shoulder area also because of all the paddling and whatnot swimming and i also been thinking a lot about my wrists and hands they're so delicate and like all of these muscles

you know, in this very, like, compressed space. And also, fun fact, there are no muscles in your fingers. There's no muscles in your fingers? Nope. How do you move your finger? Think about it like a pull, like levers and pulleys. They're all like, you're puppeteering your own... fingers from your muscles in your hands and your forearms. Oh that's really fascinating. I think your toes are similar. And what about what is the muscle that you think is the most overrated muscle? The biceps.

I was told by my anatomist friends at UCSF that the biceps brachii, which is the one that we think of when we think of this quintessential make me a muscle pose, is only the strongest muscle in the arm when it's in this position. But in a different position, it's actually the brachialis, which is the strongest and doesn't even get that. Doesn't get any. I've never even heard of it before. Doesn't get any love. Yeah.

it's the surface stuff that we like love right we love the pecs they're right here there we love this you know the biceps brachii but we don't know about the brachialis this deep but we don't know about these little muscles that are in your back kind of keeping you upright and then we see the glute well i actually think the glute it is the biggest in the human body and also it it actually is

deserves all that attention. You're a fan. Yes. I mean, it has a great name. Gluteus Maximus is an incredible name. And also the fact that it's literally the butt is also fantastic. Is there a muscle that you think is like... has a weird little story to it the muscles that give you goosebumps oh that's cool the erector pili and there's little muscle fibers that attach to your bottoms of your hair follicles and so

If you think about every time you're cold and you get goosebumps, when those muscles contract, it's trying to warm you up. And also when you're scared, the hairs on your back. and your neck all go up and think about a porcupine being so frightened that their quills go up because those are like really long hairs and then also of extreme emotion like awe

Think of peering over the edge of the Grand Canyon or watching this huge wave come in. These muscles are very existential muscles of fear, cold and awe. I mean, I just find that so wonderful. I think those are the most underrated muscles, to be quite honest. And we all have them. That's really cool. Yes. Ready to order? Yes.

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You love being in the water. In a lot of, on muscle, you're also talking about surfing. Can you talk about your relationship to surfing? It's mostly love and sometimes hate. Mostly because I hate that I'm not better at it all the time. I love it. I love it so much. I love the feeling of flying and of flow and of this.

dance that happens with the water and how the ocean is your dance partner and you have to work with that dance partner and sometimes your dance partner is feeling especially strong and rambunctious and you're trying to wrestle that dance partner into collaborating with you and sometimes it's just so easy you're just like quick stepping along the way I mean it's

the metaphors just write themselves. It is just such a perfect metaphor where it's like you have to try really hard but then also let go and it's about being in the perfect place and time and reading the moment and then not looking where you want to go, not looking down.

right not checking yourself too much yes fall down straight into the water if you do that and i think what i love about it is that it is this continuing lesson in that in both presence like being physically present because when you're out there like I was this morning you're not thinking about anything else and my brain is so busy all the time like so many people's and I'm just always and when I'm out there it's all gone

everything just disappears except for you know me and the ocean and just reading like what's coming and then figuring out how to meet that wave when it gets to me.

When you were writing about surfing, you used a term that I'd never heard before and I thought it was so interesting, which is interoception. So most people know about proprioception, which is like the sense of your body in space. And interoception is... how more generally how your body feels so it's like inside and the science of interoception is still pretty new but researchers are you know talking about

all these signals that your body sends to itself that are below your conscious thought right so conscious control rather and it's everything from pain and depth of breath even like how deep your lungs are taking in air or like stretch receptors in your muscles which you know when your muscle is getting to the point where it's

at the point of possible injury. Everyone's felt this before where you catch yourself and it's not that you stop yourself, it's that something has wrenched your arm in such a way in a motion that you're in danger of tearing your muscle and so it just stops, it just contracts. I didn't know that we had muscle spindles that were like our secret stretch detectors, but there are all these different receptors in our bodies that are telling us things that we don't know.

But learning to listen to the fact that they're going on, like there's some kind of atmospheric understanding of like on some level, you know, there's a static. How does that play out? Like proprioception, interoception?

using your muscles and activating them how do those play out in surfing well i mean certainly i know when i feel really cold i want to go in um but also if i if i've landed funny in my surfboard that's when i like kind of tore my soleus and I then it was just like oh it's time to stop you have to listen to your body when it's trying to tell you something and pain is one of those ways right but it's also like when it feels good keep going

But how do you also then come back from injury? Because I think also that's another long road that I think we often stop doing things that when we've injured ourselves or... You know, maybe we've been sick. And then I think coming back to movement is also something that is like a long road. There is another activation energy that needs to happen. But I will say one thing I will say to all of us.

when in those moments is that your muscles remember so muscle memory is not just living in the motor neuron patterns of our movements but there is a memory in our cells themselves for past exercise and so it lasts i mean it's really this research is quite new and i talk about it in the book but your muscle cells will retain a propensity when either it's epigenetic where certain genes are switched on and off

with and expressed more fully with exercise and such that your muscles are primed to respond to exercise and can like get to return to form faster and that includes mass and strength. That means it's okay to take a break. And I think that's another thing that your muscles are telling you, that it's okay to give yourself a rest and then you come back stronger. What is the connection specifically between surfing and muscle and strength?

I mean, for me, surfing is the most joyful at this moment manifestation of muscle and strength and what I can use my body for in the world. I love wrestling with the ocean. I love like... understanding that the ocean itself has its muscularity and I'm like it's an energy transfer right so like the wave the body and the surfboard all of this has to work

in flow and synchronicity for that wave to be ridden to its utmost potential. There's a level in which muscle is about control of our body, but also control of our mind, of focus. This is a practice.

anything that's about control i think sometimes it can be healthy and sometimes it can cross the line into unhealthy so how do you think about like swimming or muscle building or surfing as um staying on the healthy side of control and not viewing it as like an obsession or an addiction or too far i am no different than anyone else in terms of i want it to be better i wish you know sometimes i wish i

you know ate better or was stronger or whatever like everybody has some view of their body that they would like to do better but i do think that if you think about our muscles as supporting the things that we want to do that looks different for everyone and so I want everyone to be able to use their bodies to like the maximum joy possible and I think that's what muscles are for because

What are muscles? Muscles make us move and movement brings us joy. So what is the movement that brings you the most happiness? And how can I have more of that in my life? And that's really like all I want for people. well bonnie thank you so much for making the time to do the show thank you so much for being here this was an absolute pleasure thank you chris it was a joy to be here with you

That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Bonnie Tsui. Her books are called On Muscle and Why We Swim. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me About How to Laugh More Every Day, is available for pre-order now. You can find more about my book and all my other projects at ChrisDuffyComedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who are both...

muscular, and strong-willed. On the TED side, we've got audio powerlifters Daniela Balorezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tanzika Sungmanivong, Antonia Lay, and Joseph Debrine. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who dispose of weak facts with reckless abandon.

On the PRX side, we've got the Arnold Schwarzeneggers of audio, Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with someone whose strength you admire. Thank you for making me tough. strong, muscular choice to listen to this podcast episode. We will be back next week with more episodes of how to be a better human. Thank you again for listening and please take care.

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