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Now, I grew up in a family of walkers. Partly that's because I grew up in New York City, so if we wanted to go somewhere, we were walking or we were taking public transportation. But it's also because both of my parents really love to walk, albeit in very different ways. My dad is
a big nature walk guy. He loves hiking, he loves backpacking, he loves camping. He loves to walk in the woods. My mom, on the other hand, is an urban walker. She loves to explore new neighborhoods, to walk past shops, through parks, and through museums. Despite the fact that my parents love walking so much, It's not something that I've thought about a lot. I haven't really examined walking very deeply.
But it is something that today's guest, Craig Mod, has put a lot of time and mental energy into. He has built this career as a photographer and a writer by documenting his walks. Long, often multi-day or multi-week walks through Japan where he has been living for more than 20 years. Craig uses walking as a way to create a narrative, to force himself to see the world at a human scale, and to interact with people, places, and businesses that he might not otherwise ever encounter.
And while Craig is normally walking in Japan, he has also walked paths around the world, some famous, like the Camino de Santiago in Europe, and others much less well known. Wherever he is walking, Craig is very conscious about what he is trying to get out of a walk.
Sometimes, he's trying to get deep focus on his photography and writing. Other times, it's connection and community with people who he's walking with. Sometimes it's adventure. And other times, it's returning to a place and knowing that place more and more deeply.
To me, the fact that there are so many different rewards that can come from taking a long walk if we're conscious and thoughtful about it, well, that means that pretty much whoever you are, wherever you are, and whatever it is that you might be looking for, Craig is going to have something that is relevant to you.
So to start us off, here's a clip from Craig's beautiful new book, Things Become Other Things. In this clip, he is explaining his life and philosophy to his childhood friend Brian, who was tragically killed. And the book is written as a letter to Brian. 27 years since we last spoke. A catch-up is in order. Here are the broad facts. I'm now 41. I moved to Japan when I was 19. I walk a lot, mostly alone, always compulsively, down these old Japanese roads.
I walk 20, 30, sometimes 40 or more kilometers until my feet feel wonky, hot in spots, mince. until I'm sure I can't take another step. And then I do the same thing again the next day. And then the next. Repeat this for weeks. Months. I do this easily, as if my body has been waiting for this my whole life. I photograph those I meet, the things I see, the banalities of life I pass.
I dictate my observations and thoughts into a recorder, talking to myself like that bag lady who roamed our suburban sidewalks, who walked past our homes. Why didn't any of us try to help her? Each night, I spend three or four or five hours collating the photographs, compiling my notes, doing laundry, chatting with in-owners, creating an archive.
Where does it all go? Here, you're listening to it. The whole thing an ascetic practice. I even shave my head like some performative mendicant, one who lives off stories as alms. This is a walk, yes, but also a series of relationships with people and objects. purpose wrought from a slideshow of faces, old tales, new tales, histories, fields, forest climbs, pachinko parlors, and pine trees. Okay, let's get into the conversation with Craig.
Hi, I'm Craig Mudd. I'm a writer and photographer, and my newest book is called Things Become Other Things, and it is out from Random House, which is a big new thing for me. All of my other books have been pretty independent-based, but this one's out from one of the big guys, so go check it out.
So let's start with kind of a simple question that's also a huge one, which is what does it mean to walk? I mean, for me, a big part of it is just it's a tool. It's a forcing function to just focus the attention. When you're really walking, you know, if you're being a considerate walker, you don't have your phone out, you have to be hyper-present. I mean, I think we are just programmed evolutionarily in the sense of like walking rewards us because walking is what...
essentially saved us I think or pushed us to explore the world to move beyond where we might have been you know 50,000 years ago or whatever and so I mean the reason why we walked all over the world was because it feels really good to walk and there's you know there's so many
studies that talk about the physical health benefits and the mental health benefits of walking, but you get at this kind of a spiritual aspect of walking and of exploring that some of us have lost you have this great quote on page 13 of the book
But later on in the path into adulthood, many of us seem to lose this simple impulse to traverse dirt, to push on the edges of what's known to us. We grow older and settle in and the world shrinks. And the next time we lift our heads and survey things, it can feel like we've been stuffed into a suitcase. well i think for me what became sort of spiritual about the walking
It took a little while for me to recognize this, but it's the continuousness of it. So it's like if you just go for a walk in the afternoon, that's one thing. But really when it starts to become kind of heightened is when you do it day after day after day for a week. and you know while i'm walking i'm also
photographing and talking to people. And I have all these rules. I have my walking rules. So, you know, I'm not on social media. I'm not listening to podcasts. I'm not listening to music. I'm not looking at the news. So anything that can teleport you out of the moment. And even when I arrive somewhere.
I don't touch any of those things either when I'm in the middle of a big walk. Because again, it's about that kind of hyper-presence. And every morning I wake up and I kind of go, well, is there going to be something to write about? Is there going to be something interesting enough in the day for me to encounter?
And if you just believe in it and every day you do it over and over and over again, you just realize like, yes, the world, like the most banal of days is full of so much potential adventure. I mean, that sounds so cheesy to say, but it's, It's really true. There are just so many interesting people that you're passing every single day that you never pay heed to, in part because you've teleported or you're playing Candy Crush or whatever it is. And if you just make it...
your purpose to engage with all those people. And walking is like the ultimate kind of hack slash tool to just do that. And I think that's probably been the most you know, spiritual slash theological element of all the big walks forming. You know, this idea of not teleporting. While probably
relatively few people listening are going to be able to take a month off from whatever work and family responsibilities they have and just walk. I think this idea that we... end up in our day like teleporting out of where we are by looking at our phone or by getting sucked into the news or social media i think that's something that everyone can relate to
And something I know you really feel strongly about is using walking and using like being on this human scale to cultivate boredom, to actually be present, even if there's not something immediately attention grabbing about that, that that's actually something really important.
Yeah, well, I mean, part of honing attention is driving yourself crazy with boredom, you know, because then you just start paying attention more because you're so hungry for input when you are walking. And, you know, my walks, I'll go hours and hours without.
talking to anyone or interacting with anyone you know there's certain walks i've done where i'll walk for days and days and days past like pachinko gambling parlors that's or like big box shops and like it's just giant trucks trundling by you know and so those kinds of days can be really really
quite exhausting your boredom is sort of at a peak but you do pay attention to those things so in a way that while you're driving a car you can kind of as you pass all the gambling parlors or whatever you can kind of just
I don't know. In a car, it's really easy for your mind to just be elsewhere, I find. More so than in walking. Because I walk the Tokaido, which is the route between Tokyo and Kyoto. It's one of the old routes. It's the route that Shinkansen, the bullet train takes. I've walked that twice. And then I drove it with a friend over seven days, kind of slowly, last November. And it was interesting to feel in the car acutely just how different the road seemed.
so like all these bits and pieces that when i was walking kind of felt really dire and dour and exhausting. In the car, you just, you don't even feel them at all and you kind of just pass it. So part of it too, for me, is that boredom is really critical to kind of put a finger on the pulse of a country or the pulse of a place.
and you can kind of tell by like how much that boredom is spiking or how much the exhaustion or how much you're kind of like pushing back against where you're walking, how much that's spiking as a, I don't know, resonance of just where. the country or the city or the prefecture or the state or whatever is at this moment in time. You know, which direction is it heading in? Is it being more generous to walkers or more generous to cars?
But unlike a day-to-day thing, if listeners can't do, obviously can't do a week or a month of walking. And the real sad thing is most people wait until they retire to do it. And I don't see many other people doing like the Tokaido or the Nakasendo, but it's either college kids who are like on break. or like 65, 70 year old men who've just retired and they're just pounding it out. But for everyday normal stuff, I'd say that the most transformative thing you can do
Take the phone out of your bedroom. I haven't slept with the phone in my bedroom in like 15 years. That was really intuitive to me a long time ago. The phone's out of your bedroom. get like an alarm clock. Braun makes a bunch of great little alarm clocks. They're fine. Or get a HomePod mini if you really, really need to have some kind of connected thing near you, but just don't have it have a screen. And then in the morning also,
Don't look at your phone don't touch it put it in a place where it's totally out of sight I try to go until after lunch before touching my phone and If you can do that great and I find that even just doing that the quality of the work I'm able to do in the morning
and i try to also not have my computer be online so it's like what you really you before you go to bed you decide okay what's the thing i want to work on in the morning you have that set up on the computer everything else is turned off and you just go right into that thing and i find the space i can inhabit when i do that feels almost godlike compared to when you have the phone and all these notifications are coming in because your attention is just so in your own control.
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I kind of dismissively was like, most people who are listening aren't going to be able to, you know, take this long walk. But that's actually not true. I mean, if anything, you're proof that like you have built a life. where you make time for this despite being, I'm sure, very busy and there being all sorts of reasons why it doesn't make sense to take a week or three weeks and go walk.
17 miles a day right like there's there's reasons why that is really difficult even in your life all the time yeah and you still do it and a bunch of people do it i've talked about vipassana before i've written about vipassana it's a 10-day retreat meditation retreat and people go
you know, you're so lucky to be able to take 10 days off. And it's like, yeah, yeah, I know. Yes, I am so lucky because like I crowbar that into my life. But the reason why I even thought could crowbar it into my life was I was invited to Stanford to see
This guy gave a little talk and it was like, there's like 10 of us in the room and it was Yuval Harari. This is like 15 years ago. And I think Sapiens had just come out or something. And I just remember thinking like, wow, this guy, just the focus. and attention, and just the intensity of this guy.
was really overwhelming and afterwards i looked him up i literally never heard of him before in my life And, you know, he does famously like six weeks of Vipassana or two months of Vipassana every year.
no matter what and i was like okay if this guy who's now doing like you know world book tour and obama's like this is the greatest book i've ever read sapiens and yada yada yada if this guy can always shove two months and he's been doing this for like a decade of vipassana interest life i can find 10 days come on you can i can find it let's let's work hard let's instead of taking that other vacation we were going to take or whatever like let's let's make the vipassana the thing
Also, what's good about knowing that these things exist, they're super fancy silent meditation retreats you can do in Bali or whatever for a trillion dollars and they give you Ayurvedic oil drips on your forehead or whatever. I don't know what they do. But the pasta was free, and it was fine. I went to the Kyoto one, and the food was amazing, actually. It was really good. Everything about it was totally acceptable, especially for the price.
Just knowing these things exist in the world, you may have a moment that opens up where you can do a 10-day thing. And not everyone can do it, obviously, and especially if you've created that suitcase stuffing that can happen later in life where... You just have all these things and, you know, family and kids and mortgages and all that crap certainly make it more difficult to do these things. But, you know, you'd be surprised, I think, certain partners are really encouraging of this stuff.
And like, you can be like, Hey, if you handle the kids for 10 days, I will give you, you know, you get a 10 day ticket to do whatever the heck you want to. And I think a lot of people are surprisingly okay with that. So there are lots of options to do these things. I think we love to talk ourselves out. of doing these difficult things because it's easier to believe that we couldn't do it rather than, you know. struggling through.
something that might be tough. And also doing a long walk is one of those things that is remarkably accessible. There's pretty much nowhere where there wouldn't be some sort of interesting walk if you walked far enough. I think actually America is one of the hardest places to do this because it is so car-centric. I run these walk-in talks with Kevin Kelly.
And Kevin Kelly is the co-founder of Wired. He's written all these books about technology. He's 73 now, I think. He's just a wonderful guy, really. a huge traveler and everything and we've tried many many times to set up walk and talks in america and they just there doesn't exist routes that you could
walk with sufficient lodging along the way in the way like these old pilgrimage routes have. So we just did Spain two weeks ago. And I would say anyone listening, if you're like, oh, I want to do a walk. I don't know where to do it. Two places that make it so easy, you can't talk yourself out of it. Camino de Santiago in Spain. The French Camino is so great.
In fact, I would just say that would be the one to do. And if you only have like five or six or seven days, just do the last hundred kilometers. I just walked the last 100k with this wonderful group and the path is amazing. It's beautiful.
the hotels like you have great hotels to stay at the infrastructure is good the food is good but there are all sorts of companies that you they'll just set it all up for you and you just show up and you just do the walking and they handle luggage and they handle hotel booking and all that stuff so anyway that that would be my advice I'm glad you brought up that Kevin Kelly walks because I wanted to talk to you about
You have all these rules and these ways that you think about walking, but you do it in two really kind of dramatically different ways as far as your experience. One is solo as really getting internal and doing your own creative work. And then the other is being in these. small group walks with Kevin Kelly where it's a group of people and you're all together the whole time and you're having these conversations at night.
So can you tell us a little bit about how the rules differ and how the experience for you differs between those two? Yeah, I mean, they couldn't be more different. I mean, for me, the only way I'm able to do quote-unquote real work, you know, Things Become Other Things was written, essentially, drafted on a walk I did in 2021. That can't happen if I'm in a group. Even with just one other person, I can't do it.
Because when I'm alone and I'm walking and during those big moments of boredom, what I find my brain does to kind of take up the slack because what my mind wants to do is it wants to write you know it's just I just can't stop my mind from writing and so as I'm walking and I'm in these deep deep pockets of boredom there's just tumbling sentences and paragraphs and thoughts and you know sort of
syntheses as I'm moving and I'm just kind of dictating it into notes.app, you know, and just having it like do dictation, like literal, just like Siri dictation or whatever. So when I'm solo walking and I don't have any of the teleportation things, no social media, none of that stuff. And then I'm interacting with people on the road.
That's the only time I can do my quote-unquote real work. And then when I do something like I do with Kevin where we're walking in a group, and I think the ideal number is eight because what we do is we walk during the day for five, six hours, and then at night we have
three-hour dinner every night around one table and eight people is kind of the perfect size where even if you're in a slightly noisy environment you can kind of hear the other person across like the furthest point across the table. And then we do a three-hour so-called Jeffersonian dinner every night where it's one topic, one conversation, which means there are no sub-conversations happening at one side of the table. Everyone is
participating in every moment of the conversation. If a solo walk is about building a practice with yourself and honing sort of that sense of boredom and remembering what boredom feels like and allowing your mind to kind of flourish because of that doing a walk and talk like kevin and i do is about this incredible bonding that happens between people at these dinners over the course of seven basically have six or seven dinners so you're having
21 hours of deep discussion with people over the course of a week which as an adult like basically no one does but like it is so moving and you know again like to do these walks did i have do i really have time right now to be going to spain and yet i know i've just prioritized it i've created i have this faith that Doing these walks, doing these things, having these conversations is gonna pay dividends so much bigger than what I have to sacrifice right now to get to the place and do the thing.
Hearing you describe it and reading about it, it is one of those things where I do feel like, wow, that sounds so amazing.
because it is something you don't get to do as an adult just to have this really like dedicated time with people but also to have this dedicated time where you're thinking about the same topic altogether for that long like even the three hours of one night is so rare for people to have like we're just going to have a deep conversation that's not let's just catch up they end up being
what you did and kind of a summary and then the other person gives a summary and then you say okay see you in another three months To talk about these different topics in depth with these different characters sitting around the table with you is pretty profound. And everyone kind of gets something out of it. It's like we finished that Spain walk.
and like this happens with most most of these walk-in talks people kind of go like this was one of the most incredible meaningful weeks of my life and all you know we didn't do anything aside from just walk and pay attention and be mostly offline. But yeah, it's shocking how something so simple, again, it's about this faith kind of what are contemporary theologies? What do they look like? What do they feel like? And I think doing things like this helps.
codify what a good religious practice or healthy contemporary modern religious practice feels like. And for me, these walk and talks definitely feel like going to church. in a really profound way. I'll say for myself, the idea that being around other people and not taking out your phone and just being present and having a shared experience, that that would be really, really meaningful. That all-
is intuitive to me for sure. One thing that I think is actually not intuitive that I know is one of your rules, and it sounds like it's actually a rule on both the individual walks and the group walks, is to have everything booked in advance so that there's no thinking about logistics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, logistics is death. I mean, people underestimate just how much time it takes to figure out where you're going to stay. I mean, the Camino's a little different in the sense of
I think a lot of walkers who are like truly doing it as pilgrimage, like you can do it really, really, really, really, really inexpensively. You just kind of go to a town and just like knock on all the doors and someone will have a bed for you. when i'm doing the japan stuff especially the problem is there might not be another town for like 20 miles. So you've really got to have it locked down in advance. And also, I make a spreadsheet. So if I'm doing a 30-day walk, I have a spreadsheet.
distances and like what meals are included so I know exactly what I have to be thinking about do I need to figure out lunch and this and that because when I'm working I don't want any of my energy to go towards that. You know, and figuring out a hotel and figuring out, okay, how far am I going to walk today? I know people might hear that and go, oh my god, it's a spreadsheet that's so unromantic.
There's definitely that angle, which I get. You meet someone along the road, maybe you want to stay with them. What happens if you do that? There are all these dissenting voices to this, but my whole thing is always, well, if I meet someone interesting, I'll just go back after the walk. The walk isn't to do that, for me at least. These kinds of walks isn't to go where the wind blows me. It's to have it all set up in advance as a kind of tool and then to extract as much
fullness out of the days as I can within the parameters of how the thing is set up. And for me right now, the more important thing to focus on are the relationships, the fleeting relationships I have as I'm in the middle of a walk. And I think there is something really powerful.
actually about accelerating intimacy because you know you're gonna be leaving this person in say 15 minutes or 20 minutes so you know I've I've definitely made old men cry in weird little cafes in the middle of nowhere not because I like beat them up or anything but because you're able to go to a place of such vulnerability so quickly because you know you're just gonna leave
and 30 minutes or an hour. And I think if you are in this mindset where, oh yeah, I might just stay here all day, yada, yada, yada, you can tend to under accelerate that intimacy or you might think oh well we've got you know six hours together we've got a night together and I think that is a very different thing than what I'm doing.
Because it's not just about booking hotels. It's also like knowing where your food is. It's also knowing like exactly where you'll be and not taking these side adventures, right? Like, you know, a farmer invites you over to his house for dinner. You say like, I can't do that.
But I think the thing that is interesting to me about that is that there's this real clarifying of what is and is not the task at hand right like this is the vision of what i am doing and as a result i am not doing other things and i think as an artist it can be really hard to not
pursue all the other possibilities that pop up it's actually very very hard to not say like well that seems interesting or that seems like maybe it would be promising or lucrative or any of the other things that it could be and to instead say this is what i'm doing this is what i'm doing and there aren't excuses i just do this thing yeah i mean the point of the walk is the work i love the phrase the reward of good work is more work it's like the point of the walk for me is
To have all those experiences and then at the end of the day spend, you know, because I'll walk for eight hours and then I spend four or five hours every night synthesizing, you know, where I'm writing two, three, four thousand words. but when I'm shooting usually I'll shoot film and digital and then I'll take those digital photos and I will do a rough edit of those and so The point is that at the end of every day, I am completing this kind of full synthesis of the day.
you forget things really quickly. So even though I'm kind of note-taking and doing those sorts of things, at the end of the day, if you do not sit down and spend the time to write up, what you felt and what you experienced, you're going to lose a lot of it. And so for me, that is kind of the work at hand. Everything else that gets in the way of being able to do that is a little bit of a distraction. And also I think...
There is a little voice in the back of your head that might be going, well, why don't you go to the farmer's house? What could be waiting at the farmer's house? And like I said, I can always just be like, hey, here's my card. And if that connection felt really potent... I can just go back. And I have gone back. Over the years, I've formed these really deep relationships. with many people in the middle of nowhere, these folks who run the inns and cafes and hotels and ryokans and minshkus,
Like I have deep relationships and like going back again and again and again. And so the seductive thing about going off on the side quest is that it keeps you from doing.
the quote-unquote real work which can be scary and so anything that feels like a great distraction from quote-unquote the real work is seductive that's just the nature of things and that's also why the phone is so seductive and why all the dopamine stuff and notifications are seductive because it feels like you're doing something slightly meaningful or at least
It's keeping you busy when what you really should be doing in the morning is you're writing or you're illustrating or whatever it is, whatever your creative practice might be. You have to have a role. And you have to fight. Creative work gets done by fighting and maintaining that space for it. And it can be hard sometimes. It can be really tough. okay we're going to take a quick break but we will be back with more from craig in just a moment
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I've heard you say that one of the things you're trying to do in your work and make sure that you do every year is make things that are in the shape of a book. I mean, for me, books have always been the thing that have captured my attention. I mean, whatever, we all have this, you know, as kids, we love books, and, you know, books and Nintendo were the things, and then, like, computers...
kind of grew out of that because computers weren't access to another version of Nintendo, you know, different video games. And then, you know, you start programming and that's exciting and seductive. But books were always these kind of cornerstone objects. And when I graduated, College, too. I was really inspired by McSweeney's and what Dave Eggers was doing, and then Eli Horowitz was doing with McSweeney's. The book is an object.
to me, never lost its aura. To me, the immutability of it has made it so powerful in the face of the internet and the fleetingness of so much stuff that's online, even though we may not delete things now as much as we used to and stuff is being archived or whatever.
Still, everything that exists online feels like it could be gone tomorrow, and that wouldn't be surprising at all. And the same thing with digital photos. I've only gone back to film in the last two years, and I kind of sort of went back on a lark and the reason why I've continued shooting film is that having the negatives feels so powerful as an archival unit but having stacks of the negatives which
will outlive pretty much all of us. I mean, they're like petroleum. It's like just plastic stuff that will probably never biodegrade. It's kind of cool to have that. And I think that books, these objects, are not only a perfect technology in the sense of...
You don't need an instruction manual if you can read. You know, reading is the only requirement. They just make sense as objects. They are fully attention respecting, like they aren't pulling you in other directions. When you're with a physical book, You're totally present. And as a clarifying goal for me, for my writing practice and my photography practice,
Having that as a deadline, producing a book, getting to the book, I find nothing clarifies my artistic work or gets me to edit more. And having those edges, having it not be digital where it can expand forever, essentially zero cost. is also really powerful so i love it all the constraints of it i mean there's a reason why lps are kind of having a big comeback it's like we Like. being able to hold things we have an emotional connection to.
When it comes to music or art or literature, there's something powerful about that. You don't want a Kindle book. You want the physical book. I totally hear that. And I really admire it. And in myself, with my own work, it's hard to not get... sucked into the temptation. of feeling like something that I make myself.
that doesn't have some sort of institutional stamp on it, and that doesn't have some sort of paycheck stamp on it, and that only makes it out to my circle and a small ripple out, not a giant ripple out. it's sometimes hard to feel like that has as much value as it would if it was widely distributed. And I feel like
It seems like you believe that they have equal or different value. That it's not like, oh, when I self-publish a book, that book is less than when I publish a book with Random House. And I think that's hard for many people to actually feel in themselves, to believe. Well, it is hard to believe in because we have so much status points, you know, attributed to things like, okay, do you have the stamp or do you not have the stamp?
you know i'm having conversations with my community now about this who are kind of like please don't change and like because i have this i've cultivated this really incredible group of people that have supported my work and now that i'm like touching random house i'm kind of going to these bigger slightly bigger scales but for me okay like look The point. Like not to get... too meta about like why are we alive and like what's the point of
So for me, what's really important is a fullness of days, right? So I actually don't really believe that there's much meaning to anything that we're doing or that us being alive really means anything. Everything's going to disappear. And we're going to leave no trace and no one will ever find anything. And that's totally fine. so it is once you're like okay with that it sort of doesn't matter but i do think like
It makes all the more miraculous that, you know, I love this idea of like us having vision, us having cognition, consciousness is the universe itself observing itself. You know, it's like it takes away our autonomy in this kind of interesting way. So it's just a tool of the universe to observe itself. And so, anyway, I think the miracle of that, whatever this thing is that we are doing, in order to respect that or is to try to
within the context of your own scale and your own capabilities is just find as many full days as possible. If your skills and your focus is family, then how do you make every day with your family as full as possible? How do you get to the end of the day and you slide into bed and you just go, oh my God, this hand that I was dealt today, I couldn't have played it any better. I couldn't have gotten any more out of it in terms of fullness. And when I say fullness, I mean connection and kindness.
So, okay, we have that set, right? That baseline. Okay, we're trying to find fullness. And then for me doing the book, is a way of further respecting what I've experienced in those days. And so it's giving form to that fullness. And so it just feels like it's all part of this process of respecting whatever that my weird theology around fullness and like the meaninglessness of life and all that stuff. Once you've got that established.
and you're thinking about okay well how do i respect the work how do i give the best possible platform to this work and for a lot of my work it's it doesn't have to be a big scale so you know a thousand books or three thousand books or five thousand books the goal of Going with Random House with trying to hit a list is to is to respect the work respect the story of that book So things become other things is essentially this
Love letter to a best friend from elementary school. That's kind of the framing of the whole book and his memory I think is so important. And it's so important to me that giving his memory the greatest chance of being experienced on as big a scale as possible is the best way I can honor.
who that guy was so brian that's that was his name that's the best way i can honor brian and what our friendship was and the themes of the book and being able to i hope I hope, have these kinds of conversations like we're having right now in a way that
gets to more people and gets more people doing these things. Because the more people that are cultivating attention and focus and going on long walks and thinking about the possibility of going on long walks, guess what? I believe that the better the world will become and the better we will be able to respect. this strange miracle of consciousness that we have. And I think, you know, being kind and exploring the world, that is all part of our duty as humans.
Two final things that I'd love to talk about that play a role here and I know that you really believe strongly in. One is kind of the like political and social choices that are made that allow for these full days to happen, right? You've written really beautifully about your adopted country, right? Like Japan, you've lived for more than 20 years. This is your home now.
Japan has a really strong social safety net. It has the ability to have a comfortable, good life without having to work nonstop seven days a week and still not make ends meet. And you've written about how that is... is part and parcel of how to find this fullness in those days. But on page 32 in your book,
you talk about the Japanese word that loosely translates as abundance. And can you tell us about that concept and how that plays into all this? Can you read? Can you read? Okay. There's a word in Japanese that sums up this feeling better than anything in English. Yoyu. A word that somehow means the excess provided when surrounded by a generous abundance. It can be applied to hearts, wallets, Sunday afternoons, and more.
When did this happen to me, this extra space, this yoyu, this abundance, space that carried with it patience and gasp, maybe even love? for a guy who provided almost nothing, these are the shocks of the walk. The walk makes me better than I ever could have imagined I could be. And in this too, I see how good you could have been. And you're talking to Brian there.
There's this personal fullness, but there's also this abundance because you are living in a place that makes it possible to experiment and to support. I think what's difficult for people to understand who don't live in a country that has robust social safety nets is Feeling your neighbors totally taken care of is an incredible thing to feel. Walking down the street in a giant city where you're passing tens of thousands of people and knowing that they can only fall so far.
is a weirdly exciting, uplifting thing to feel. It's a contemporary American condition to not experience that. Because I think most of the rest of the world, there is a pretty robust social safety net. And most first world countries that can do it, they've chosen to do it. You can be like, I want to have a family, I want to have four kids. And I want to run an independent bookstore and I don't have to compromise. Like those kids are going to be okay. Like we don't have to pay.
$10,000 for family health care because my company isn't providing health care or whatever weird cockamamie thing is the standard in contemporary America. From that, you get that term yo-yo, which, as I wrote in the book, is this kind of excess space. I've been describing it more and more as the space in your heart to accept someone else.
space in your heart to have empathy. And I think a lot of what we feel in contemporary American politics is this crushing lack of yo-yo on the part of so many people that have so little empathy for others because they're terrified because that social safety net doesn't exist because you know how far you can fall if you fall in a country like America. It's like, just go walk down the street.
I imagine downtown LA or downtown San Francisco. It's on display. That's how far you can fall. And I think everyone in America kind of feels to a certain degree like, that could be me.
And the reason I left 25 years ago when I chose to move to Japan, and I think what moved me when I got here was feeling that social safety net and feeling people being taken care of and that was such a profound thing on a subconscious level to experience that's part part of why i decided to stay here and then plus cost of living was super reasonable so i didn't have to compromise on my work i have to add this caveat like of course
there's a terrible way of living in Japan which is like the salaryman life or the salarywoman life where you are just a sort of completely yoked to this job and you can't leave because the expectation is nobody leaves until like your boss leaves or whatever and you're working these terrible hours and you're doing this terrible commute
like that is also very prevalent here but any of those people could choose to step away so that option is here it is it is available if you want it in japan even as a japanese person who classically would be plugged into that system. I've had many Japanese friends who opted out of it, and they have lived these, you know, as poets, as painters, as musicians, and they've had incredible lives, and it's been made possible because of those
social decisions that collectively everyone has kind of bought into and recognizes the value of. And I just want to say too, like, there are so many parts of America, even contemporary America, that I love and that are incredible and that It just makes it all the more heartbreaking that everyone in the States isn't able to lean into and enjoy the amount of entrepreneurial energy in America. totally totally put
even a city like Tokyo to shame. Just that gumption doesn't exist. And so there are, I think, certain trade-offs. I mean, and they can be, it's not to say like you can't, if you have a social safety net, you don't have like kind of an entrepreneurial society. Like I think that's a false dichotomy. I'm just befuddled by the fact that
you know, contemporary America kind of keeps getting in its own way of achieving that vision. It's very bizarre to me because there is so much I love and I am really looking forward to this book tour because These are all cities and places, and I know there are going to be people that I just love that are there, and I just can't wait to be part of that. But at the same time, I go, I want all of you to feel what having this abundance is like, what having yoyu feels like, and I wish that
I could give everyone that gift in America and see what happens, see what kind of decisions were made, understanding what's possible. Craig, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for making the time and giving us the energy to be on the show. I really, really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you
to today's guest, Craig Maude. His new book is called Things Become Other Things, and I highly, highly, highly recommend it. You can find more about Craig's work and read all about his walks at craigmaud.com. The audio excerpt from that book was excerpted with permission of Penguin Random House Audio from Things Become Other Things by Craig Mott and it was read by the author, Craig Mott.
I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects, at ChrisDuffyComedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team that I would walk 500 miles with. On the TED side, I'd walk 500 more with Daniela Balarezzo, Ban Ban Cheng, Chloe Shasha, This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who want you to know that I would never actually walk 500 miles for anything. Touche, fact-checkers.
Touche. On the PRX side, they are the social safety net of audio. I'm talking Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Pedro Rafael Rosado, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a friend or a family member who you think would Enjoy it. Share it with someone who you could imagine tolerating on a long walk. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, thanks for listening and take care.
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