TED Audio Collective You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Because of the nature of this show where it's an interview with mostly just one person, we tend to feature a lot of people who have very clear ideas about what they do and who they are. They've accomplished something big and they're here to share about it. And that's great, and I think there's a lot to learn from people who are so focused.
But I've been thinking about how they can also skew our understanding about what's normal. Because most of us don't have just one thing that we've always known was our thing. There's only so many people who can be like, I'm the world's most talented bass jumper. In fact, there's only one person who can say that and they're probably currently throwing themselves off a cliff right now.
The rest of us juggle a bunch of identities all at once or we might be fuzzy on exactly what it is that we want to devote our free time or our careers to. We might not know what our identity exactly is. For a lot of us, it can feel like our thing is just getting through the day. And that's why I think that today's guest is really special. Constance Hockaday helps people to come up with new visions of leadership and success to strive for.
But she also helps broaden ideas about what your thing can be. And she's doing it for everyone, not just the single-minded passionate sense of birth type people. I also love that Connie is still figuring this out for herself. She describes herself in a lot of different ways and how she sees herself professionally and personally is always evolving. Here's a clip from her TED Talk. I work in organizational leadership development and I'm an artist.
I believe artists are leaders in expressing things that humankind often doesn't know how to say yet. So that's why I invited a bunch of artists to do a leadership makeover. They wrote public addresses. They made leadership portraits. I call them the artists in presidents. Since 2020, over 70 artists and presidents have contributed to the digital archive. They're North American, Indigenous, International and stateless. They're artists with disabilities. They're queer.
They made beautiful attempts at embodying inclusive performances of leadership and power. Some sung, others looked to repair the past. One person used artificial intelligence to write her speech. And one person just straight up wrote a curse. And so many more. But what really surprised me was that a lot of us struggled to say something new, to articulate what we want with authority.
We're going to talk with Connie a lot about that struggle to say something new and how to articulate what it is that we want. But first, we're going to articulate some podcasts ads. Go anywhere. How to be a better human is brought to you by progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now. You're driving, cleaning and even exercising. But what if you could be saving money by switching to progressive?
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Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. I host a podcast called Rethinking about the science of what makes us tick. This season we're talking about navigating young adulthood with clinical psychologist Meg J. If I had to pick one word that I hear from 20-somethings more than any other word in terms of where the struggles come from, it's uncertainty. And so I think just the uncertainty involved in how do you make those big life decisions? How do you take control of your life?
Please don't follow rethinking with Adam Grant, wherever you're listening. We're here with Constance Hockadeh talking about art, organization and figuring out who the heck you are. Hi, I'm Constance Hockadeh. Most people call me Connie. I have a really hard time introducing myself at parties because some weird things have come together in this life that make me who I am. I'm an artist. I make large-scale public interventions, usually socially engaged artwork.
And I also work in organizational development and leadership development. So that means I'm a facilitator, a coach, a mediator, a culture builder. Yeah, that's who I am. I think it's really fascinating how you have all these different parts of yourself. And you've had a career where you've reinvented yourself a bunch of different times.
And I think when I talk to people in the real world, one of the biggest questions they have is about figuring out who they are and what are they going to do next and what is their passion. It's less about how do I accomplish my passion and we're like, what is it? So I wonder how you think about those questions because you have had this life of an artist and you've had a corporate job and you've been a speaker and a leader in all these different things. How do you think about it for yourself?
What moments there is like the cloud's break and there's a clearing of vision of like, oh yeah, all of that stuff is me and lives inside of me. And all of that stuff supports the other stuff, right? It's all the same expression. It's all my expression. But it's really hard. I grew up in a house, middle class family with my mother is an immigrant from Chile. My dad is like a good old boy Texan.
And I grew up with the expectation that I would go to college and that I would become a professional, hopefully one that could support my parents in their old age, right? Like Dr. Lawyer, architect, you would be such an amazing art. My dad, even in my early 20s, was sending me books on social marketing, just like trying to get me to do about a job. But I've never done that. I really have never been able to do that.
And that doesn't mean that I haven't tried and that it hasn't been a painful struggle the whole time. I think all of this is interesting because it also in your work, I a lot of times have seen your artwork as causing us to have opportunities to think differently about maybe the goals that we have or what society tells us we're supposed to want. A lot of your projects play with those ideas of like what it means to be prepared or what it means to be successful.
Those are themes that it seems like you exploring your work. So I grew up in South Texas. My grandfather was the only doctor and one of the first mayors of this like tiny little town that I grew up in. My father is a marine biologist and he's also a sportsman and he also was in the Coast Guard. So hanging out with him was a lot about how to survive a shipwreck.
Basically like all of our activities were if you get fatigued off shore like do this dead man's float and rotate back and forth so you don't get sunburned like I had to wear a whistle around my neck so that if I got hurt I could blow the whistle and he could come and get me like if you land on a sandy shore from a shipwreck like dig a hole in the sand and the freshwater will rise up and you can drink the freshwater off of the sand.
And so he really did teach me a lot about how to survive so many things. But I don't feel like I ever learned how to get on the ship in the first place. Like I wasn't taught you know what ship did I want to get on. How was I going to get on it? That set me up for this kind of weird paradox where I believed that there were shipwrecks in my future and that I had what I needed to survive this extraordinary thing. But I didn't know how to get on to the extraordinary thing to begin with.
So you know what happened was is that I was expected to go away and go to college in the big big city you know and when I got there I was really really was very depressing to me like the options that were in front of me were all so so boring. And I got pretty depressed. I figured out that I was queer. I like to say like I didn't even know what queer was you know until Ellen DeGeneres came out on television when I was like 15 years old. And so I just couldn't hang like I dropped out of college.
I ended up back in my small little hometown like renting umbrellas on the beach. I was just totally lost. Then one day I went over the bridge and I saw these floating structures and there were these people living on rafts. That spectacle in the image of it I can see that you are disturbing the entire order of things here. It's a different life and I just didn't have access to a lot of images like that you know growing up where I did.
I feel like that's often one of the biggest things about finding who you want to be or your own path is just even understanding what is possible. Sometimes you have to have like a vision of what it could look like before you even imagine it for yourself. And that for you it sounds like was the floating neutrinos. Can you explain what the floating neutrinos are and who they are? Oh yeah yeah. The floating neutrinos are a group of psychospiritual warriors who live on homemade rafts.
They've lived on homemade rafts for decades. They raise their children on rafts. The idea being that a raft is a place that you can live on the water that is rent free. On the water they're a set of laws like maritime laws kind of in short allows you to own the space that you're occupying in any given moment because it's a moving landscape right you can't nobody can claim a part of the water it's always moving.
So the floating neutrinos were on a journey to to find liberation like a spiritual journey and the rafts were a tool basically to get out from underneath like rent and the boss and whatever so that they could own their own time and have freedom of movement. They also had beyond the spectacle a lot of very practical beautiful teachings and information that I took from that relationship.
And this is a group that you spend a lot of time with and barely influenced by and then something that's interesting to me is you know you've lived in that world and you spent a lot of time in organizational development too.
So you've been in these like very corporate spaces where people aren't you know psychospiritual warriors maybe as much or maybe they are like I'm curious to hear how you how you see those two worlds combining or I mean it's all world building it's all world of culture building living in community in small spaces you know especially small spaces that are in motion.
I did it with the floating neutrinos I did it with swim on swimming swimming cities projects I did it my own projects like and being a leader in that space the stakes are very very high there's a lot to manage and a lot of group process and a lot of people aligning. I tell executives this all the time especially when I'm leading like you know their leadership retreats or something I'm just like working with you guys is so much easier than being an artist.
This is a breeze compared to like crossing the Adriatic Sea with like a bunch of fabricators and performance artists and trying to get everybody on the same page and dealing with all the interpersonal dynamics and like helping people understand how we're going to deal
with when we land at the Venice Biennale or whatever it is right so it is all world building it's all culture building it's a lot of interpersonal communication a lot of group process and facilitation and and I think corporations especially like mission driven corporations
but any corporation like there's a vision that we're trying to move towards right there is a higher power if you if you want to call it that and it's that vision it's that higher power that that will ultimately if you can cultivate enough belief in it enough credibility
in the thing that you're moving towards people's behaviors conform to that that higher power that we're all committing ourselves to so in that sense like I don't think that corporations are without spirit and I may I may regret saying that someday but like right now I think
that moving a bunch of people in a direction towards something that maybe has never existed before like especially businesses are trying to make the world a better place whatever like it takes a certain amount of spirit of life force and believing and and discipline around how we work together and those are are not very different qualities of living in an intentional community on a raft or creating a large art project in public space.
All right everybody hold on to your rafts because we are about to take a quick break and then we will be right back with more from Connie. This message comes from Applecard. Earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase every day then grow it at 4.50% annual percentage yield when you open a savings account with Applecard.
And Apple.co slash card calculator to see how much you can earn Applecard subject credit approval savings available to Applecard owners subject eligibility savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA member FDIC terms apply. We're talking with Connie Hockadeh about how to figure out who we are and what we want to do and Connie's not just someone who helps other people do that she's also figuring those things out for herself as a lifelong process.
Here's another clip from Connie's TED Talk. When I was in my early 20s I met Captain Betsy. I was queer, depressed, feeling totally alone in my tiny South Texas town on the Gulf of Mexico and by the time Betsy landed in my town she had been living on homemade rafts for decades with a group called the floating neutrinos. She had captained over a dozen rafts including one across the Atlantic Ocean.
So obviously I was very taken by this not because I wanted to permanently live on a raft but because I wanted to believe in an extraordinary life. And Betsy was the first person to ever ask me what it is that I wanted. So in my life Betsy modeled for me what it meant to articulate my desires and in lending her faith to me she was also giving it back to herself.
So in the TED Talk you talk about Captain Betsy as someone who really influenced you and was a mentor to you and one of the tools that Captain Betsy taught you was this concept of the three deepest desires. Can you explain that concept and talk about what you found by doing it? It's one of the most important things that's ever happened to me.
Basically there were the first people to ever ask me what it is that I wanted from this life and no one had ever asked me what I wanted and I didn't believe that I could live the life that I wanted to live outside of what I understood was what you were supposed to do right? Get a job like whatever. And it really really kind of sent me into meltdown mode like I would cry because I couldn't authentically connect to a feeling of desire for this life that was truly mine.
And Betsy would be like look it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like you just have to want it. And so the idea of the three deepest desires is this exercise of defining what it is you authentically desire for this life and they become kind of like guideposts and the game is very much like okay you're going to die. You're all we're going to die and you could die tomorrow. What is one thing that you need to do before you die? What is one thing that you desire before you die?
And once you could answer that question what's second thing that you want to need desire before you die? And the idea of the three is that if you are singularly focused in this life and something gets in your way you're sort of we're thwarted right? And if it's two things then you create this polarity or this binary that is unresolvable.
So if you have sort of three guideposts, three desires in this life that are pulling you forward then you're not stuck in that binary or in that singular thinking. And so we use the three deepest desires as like it's like a calibration tool. It's a decision making tool. It is a way of balancing and orienting oneself and it's a practice. And so when Betsy is saying it doesn't matter what you say.
When you come back tomorrow and ask yourself this again, you may be able to find a deeper and deeper feeling of an articulation of desire. And so it's a lifetime practice and then you realize like, oh wait, I think something has changed in me and you can reevaluate like what has changed? How has my desire shifted?
But the point of all of this is like you could die tomorrow and so you better be living your life guided by the things that you care about the most and not mortgaging your present for some future that may never come, right? I'm curious how often yours shifts, like how often do your three deeper desires change? Or are they kind of stable over long periods of time? Well, in the beginning they were ridiculous.
Like not to be mean to myself or anything, but the first desire I was ever really able to articulate was so weird. I was like, I want to see a waterfall. I grew up in a really flat place, whatever I wanted to see a waterfall and falling love or something. But at this point, they have stayed really stable and it's moved away from like I want to see a thing, do a thing, have a thing and it's moved more into I want to embody a thing.
So today my three deepest desires are to have a home and what I mean by that is a relationship with the place that I feel stewardship over. The second one is to live in creative community. So it's a feeling that I'm identifying right now that isn't going to be perfectly articulated. I think in this moment, but it's a feeling of living outside of nuclear family and in play and improvisation with people. And the last one is sort of like a service role.
It's like in the past, I've called it like being a teacher of hope. Hope's not the right word, but it's the closest one. It's like a teacher of change, of possibility. I love those. Felt pretty honest. Go ahead. What are yours? And this is the first time I've ever done this. So tell me if I'm either dodging it or need to be more precise or something. Okay, so what I want you to do is picture yourself in your life and hold the reality that you could die tomorrow. You could die next month.
You don't know how long you have in this life. But you have the opportunity to do one thing, find one thing, be one thing before you die. What do you desire? The first thing for sure is to make sure that the people who I love know that I love them to express that and to make it be felt and seen. You know, I'm in this moment whereas we're recording this, my wife and I are about to have our first kid.
And so like wanting her to know how much I love her, wanting my family to know how much I love and I'm grateful for them, wanting my friends and community to know that. And also like this baby who is not yet there, wanting that baby to like start life, understanding how much I love and care for them is like the most important thing, by far. That's so beautiful.
Okay, because you were brave and honest about the thing you really desire, you now have the opportunity to choose one more thing and after you complete this thing you die.
You know, I'm working on, I'm working on this book that's the biggest project that I've ever worked on and the most long term of a project and it feels like I think if I do it honestly and if I actually don't try and think about like what other people will think but just put myself into it, I think it'll be the first time that all these different things that I've worked on that feel so disparate come together.
And so I think having this out there in a way that I'm proud of, that feels like that's something I really want to have in the world before I die for sure. Awesome. Okay. So now you have a third.
I'll be honest about what is coming into my head which is that I have a friend here in Los Angeles, her name is Maureen, she's about to become 102 and I just have so much fun spending time with her and I really enjoy her and partly because of the nature of being 102, I feel like I want to spend as much time with Maureen as I can to really get all my mo time in and that feels really important too. I love that, I mean it's not about me but I do love that.
Okay. Okay. So now that you have these three deepest desires, you could if you wanted to, you could write them down. I like to draw a triangle, we call them your triad so you can I urge or it is how people use values or how, you know, especially in like leadership development, we talk about values and living your values, right?
So yeah, so that is how you, and it's also important I think for your wife and the people that you love to understand that that is what is driving you forward where your heart really is because at the core of our relationships, at least for me, it's that we help each other get what we, what the other walks, the first thing we come together around is supporting each other in our three deepest desires. Something that I'm really, is really striking me right now is the idea of it being three, right?
The idea of not one, not this one singular goal or this, you know, kind of binary two, but instead they're being three things. But one thing that it makes me think about is a lot of times when I talk to people who are not artists, but want to be something that really holds them back is this idea of like, but how will I make money? And the idea that art is only valuable if it is your day job.
And something that I've found is that, you know, it not being the one thing, this is where the idea of the three comes in for me is that like it actually often I make better work when I'm not necessarily trying to think about like, how is my artistic creative work going to make money, but like, I'm going to take care of the money in some other way. And then I'm just free to do this. And then I also have, you know, things that are satisfying personally in other ways too.
So like that idea of spreading the pressure out rather than having it so singularly focused often really unlocks a lot of creativity for me and freedom to be creative. But I think people often think that that's the, it like doesn't count. Like if that's not what you declare on your taxes, then you're not really an artist. Yeah. I had that problem for a while too, I have to admit.
And I think that if we're not honest about the constellations that sort of, that were sort of navigating by, we can get like really lost and sick. If for example, you are a workaholic, even if you are an artist and it's what you declare on your taxes, and it's the only thing that you care about, you may lose a chance at having a family or having intimacy or having a sense of belonging. And so it's always going to be a constellation.
Like those tensions, those competing values are always going to be there. It's how we balance and hold space for all of the things that are actually driving us forward. And when we can name them, then they won't come outside ways somewhere else, you know. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Oh yeah. So can you tell us about the projects that you've worked on in the past and also what you're working on right now, if anything?
Yeah. For people who can't see, we're talking to you and you are sitting in your studio right now. Like that's where we're talking to you, the physical space. Yeah. So my art practice, you know, thanks to the floating neutrinos, a lot of it was born, a lot of it was like waterborne, waterborne, I called them waterborne coping strategies.
Like the work was very much about water as a public space, water as a place that is what I like to call fast land, space that functions under a different set of laws where we can hopefully find like a relationship to the natural water round us, like a voice, a voice for things that are not able to be expressed on land, blah, blah, blah. So it's convoluted. It's also very hard for me to explain at parties when they're like, what kind of artist are you?
I'm like, oh, God. So one here, I'll just, examples. One time I built a hotel, a floating hotel out of a bunch of boats that we're going to get sent to the dump. It was in Jamaica Bay, Queens, right off the A train.
It was a bunch of boats offshore and I rented them out like hotel rooms and there was a stage in the middle and, you know, over 5,000 people came to the hotel over a period of a summer and it was all about like creating this temporary infrastructure that gave New Yorkers access to their largest public space, which is the water and which they have very little like designated access to.
And this project like others is, there's this idea that like the infrastructure of our cities can create our deepest ideas and beliefs about ourselves and where we can and can't put our body, right? So if there's not a staircase that goes straight from the city into the water, it's going to be really hard for us to imagine that the water is a place for our body.
And as opposed to like in Santa Cruz where there are staircases that go straight into these crazy crashing waves and people are walking down them with their children, right? To go jump and go surfing. And so then I created a floating peep show. So there were a bunch of queer performance spaces and queer spaces in San Francisco that were all kind of shuttered at the around the same time.
And so I invited people who were performers in those spaces to create a peep show inside the holes of a bunch of different sailboats. And so we had this situation where these audience members were coming and they were either friends, you know, friends are associated with the working class sailors that had let me their sailboats or they were friends are associated with a bunch of drag queens and sex workers.
So they were all sort of in this floating landscape together experiencing these performances inside the holes of boats. That's sort of like a taste of the water works. Like I've also moved into a few other spaces like really around this idea of preparedness, American ideas of survival, disaster in the future. Those were installations usually inside art spaces at the headland center where the arts are.
And that kind of veers into what I'm working on right now, which I call disaster furniture showroom. So disaster furniture showroom is a furniture store, you know, on the street and you go inside and it's only like finally crafted furniture that is responding to people's ideas or fears about the coming future. And so for me, that's about overriding our normalcy bias.
Like we have a normalcy bias that everything is normal and it's really hard for us to conceptually wrap our heads around this slow motion disaster of climate change. And oftentimes it takes like practice or physical signals to get us out of our normalcy bias, which is why we do things like fire drills. And so I want to create furniture for people's homes.
It's like a disaster preparedness side table, like a headboard that holds the ceiling up in case of an earthquake, you know, like that type of thing.
And I imagine it being like maybe even slightly like a ASMR sort of sensual experience of like peace and calm that you walk into and then the sales people are performers that are bringing you into this conversation about what you fear about the future and how you're responding to that fear so that you're not just stuck in this loop of like laying in your bed at night with that anxiety about what's going to happen, what's going to happen, but never actually taking any action towards it.
It's also a great example of like how a sense of humor or good joke can make us see that like the object is absurd in a way, but also the way that we live in our normal life is even more absurd to pretend that this won't happen. Yeah, totally. You talked about how when you first engaged with the floating neutrinos, it was a time when you were like figuring out yourself and you didn't even like know in some ways about the possibility of queerness.
And I feel like this is one of the things that is so important about questioning structures around gender identity, around sexual identity. Is that like the boxes don't actually fit anyone. There's no one who is just this one set thing that society has kind of like built an expectation of that's not true for anyone regardless of how they identify.
You always have to figure out like who am I and what does this look like for myself and who do I want to be with and what does that relationship look like or is there a relationship? The more that we get away from like the set ideas of this is the one way things are, the more that everyone is forced to reconcile with who they actually are and what they actually want.
In some ways, our identity, there is also sort of a set of ready made identities on the wall, masks that we grab and we put on and we're like, oh, I'm this option. I'm that option, right? And those masks show up in all parts of our lives like in our sexualities and in our gender expressions in the way we show up as parents in the way we show up as leaders as neighbors, like whatever we we choose or we are attached whether we realize or not to certain identities or certain masks.
And sometimes that stuff gets mixed up, you know, and you you believe that to show up as a parent, you have to show up with this mask on. But who you really are and what you truly desire will come out sideways.
Just like my queerness will come out sideways if I'm to wear a different mask or the type of leader that you're trying to be, if you're wearing some inherited mask of like white male performances of power, but that isn't really what you are, what your community needs, it will come out sideways. And so I guess that's another way to bring it back to like the importance of owning your authentic self, you know? Well, Connie, it has been truly, it has been such a pleasure talking to you.
I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. And thank you so much for being here on the show. Thank you. I love that. That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Connie Hockadeh. I am your host, Chris Duffy and you can find more for me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at christuffycomedy.com.
How to be a better human is brought to you on the Ted side by Daniela Balorezo, band band Chang, Chloe Shasha Brooks, and Joseph DeBrine who are all currently living together on an art raft. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salis, whose three deepest desires all involve easily verifiable facts.
On the PRX side, our show is put together by a team who are working in a floating hotel off the coast of Manhattan, Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. If you are listening on Apple, please leave us a five star rating and review and if you're listening on Spotify, we would love to hear your thoughts we put a discussion question up on the mobile app. Let us know what you think.
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