The D Word

We're running a couple of people short right now. They're on their way, they're on they're all on their way. Gavin's going to get in and complain that he's stuck on a public airplane what he calls like a greyhound bus or something. Rick just landed in Burbank, so he's driving here literally and it's like eight minutes away, so he'll be here in a second. And then Gavin's coming from I don't want to reveal where he stays, but from where they're on their way. We're the only ones

really committed to this podcasting. Yeah, but we're the only ones. Dmitries here, what's up, buddy, what's up? How's it going? It's going great, Buddy. I always love seeing you. You're You're like the one work horse I can cow on this show. I actually really love this podcast, so I get here even on days we don't have it. I just come here and sit here. I love it too, man, I'm in here. Ask Amy when we have Amy, our producer Amy here with us. Amy. You're texting right now.

We're doing a show. We're live on the show. People are calling. I hope they're sponsors. You know what I do. Sometimes I listen back to the podcast and I talk as if I it's live again, and I give different perspectives, and I talked to you and I have great conversations on the replace right on, Buddy, I knew we were good friends. There's something energetic there. I will say this about you though you you usually always beat me in here. I come early. Well today, I actually that's wrong. Today

I was fifteen minutes later. Most days i'm here very early, and you usually beat me here and we talk I think a lot, like through text. How much we really enjoy doing the podcast, and I disliked. So that's one thing is I love it here, so I do. I do love to get here, but I also don't like being late to things. I don't either, always earlier to things. Yeah, I don't either. I am always fifteen minutes late, always really yeah, I mean ways, it's I don't know the

same with me. I punctuality. I value punctuality in myself. Today except today was today. I was late for a couple of things. Today. It's been it's been a tough day. It's been a great day. It's been, but things, things have been creating and happening, and so I wanted to stay with them in the element when they were um.

And then the schedule kept up, and I was like, OK, really, it sounds like you're going real deep to disguise the fact that you were just like You're like, I just wanted to just really soak in the moment that I was in. You were just late, yea, I was just heading by the pool man. I didn't I wasn't doing anything today. I ever had a bad mood Brooks like where you just pissed. Yeah really yeah, And it's fun. It's fun to be in a piste off mood because like that was a lot of that was hockey playing.

It's fun. I used to love having enemies that's a fun because you get to it's so much enemies, but you get to really it's another way of releasing emotion. Like it's a big pendulum swing of emotion. Like rage is fun, anger is fun to feel, it's driving, it's motivating. It's not where I want to live and spend my life.

But to swing the pendulum that way is sometimes very I actually would love to have a therapist come in again because I think that when I should be mad, I feel sad, and I think it feels your stake being mad. I don't have I rarely get mad. I get sad. Let's just let's hang like a punching bag in your apartment or condo, and let's just turn that sadness into anytime you feel sad, you just go an

unleash on this punching bag. Thinks we need to explore because maybe men are more comfortable with anger and women get sad. That would be a great down a therapist in here. There's gonna be a whole lot of yelling and crying. It's gonna be great. I don't like it. Yeah, that would be a great topic for a show because I really don't get sad. I get frustrated or angry.

I never do. I'm always crying. I cried almost every day, Wow, almost every day for a minute here, a minute there, or like watching TV or like today about tickets to see Oprah. I cried, but it was a happy cry, like or did you cry because they were? They were? But last night I was a counterfeit. The last night I watched that show on Hulu, four Weddings in a Funeral. Just wow, Okay, cry every day, Okay, I'm I'm with you, Brooks.

And I like to get mad. Um. I don't like to like get mad and rage at people like something that's real. So I usually like to yell at people in other cars, but something that I have no idea, Like you can't see someone in a car, so i'd be like you, skinny bastard, But I have no idea what they look like. Oh I have zero road rage you. Uh No, I don't have a lot of road rage.

I don't think, um. But I tap into like rage when I need to, like like when lifting, when working out a lot of times, like I'll tap into the emotion that came up when I was competing against another guy because hockey there was face to face. There was there was blunt, forced physical conflict in hockey, and so that taught me to level up my intensity and emotion and also rage. Sometimes sometimes a guy would get the best of you and provoke a bear in you that

maybe you didn't even know you had. And so I learned to harness that over years of professional sport. And now if I want, I have it on access where I can access it. If I want to tap into something that's more powerful than maybe my current state, Like I look forward to the day Ryan pushes you too far, I'll come right over this. Ryan's gonna say something one day and I'll come right over this studio. Count I think we explore this in a couple of weeks. Sure, um,

it'd be a great episode. Speaking of episodes, though, last week we did Life After Loss and Mitch's story was exceptional and we've got so much an amazing feedback from you guys reading the emails and the direct messages on Instagram. The feedback from our community has been exceptional about Life After Loss. How many people have related to it, uh,

and how many people are inspired by Mitch's story. And this week we're gonna go into something close but not quite as severe maybe, but um, life their divorce and we're gonna speak with a couple of people that have a great divorce. Um, and I just want to ask you guys, like, are you are your parents still married? No? My my parents separated when I was four, and it was pretty nasty. Um. Do you have a recollection of it? Yeah? Yeah,

it was bad for a long time. And it wasn't until I think maybe I was in college, that they actually something happened in the family and they started getting like they started speaking again. Like, it was pretty bad for years. It's almost like fourteen almost fifteen years you're in college, so it's happened when you're four fifteen eighteen

years later they started speaking again. Yeah, And it was like like if if they called, because he didn't have cell phones back then, if if somebody called the house to talk to the kids, the other one to be like like it was like hold on, Like they wouldn't even talk. Yeah, I mean it was pretty nasty for years. Did you ever like have triggers or issues in your

own marriage from their divorce? No? Actually, I think I learned a lot from going through all of that that I was more aware of kind of stuff that they did wrong and how they handled it, and think, so I think it was I think it probably you know, it was tough to go through, but I think it educated me in the long run, and it also just if so we for keeping score. It wasn't my fault.

My parents got divorce when I was in college. And I'm not saying it was like unicorns and rainbows, but I do have one of those situations where it's like unicorns and rainbows, Like everybody has Christmas together, everybody has Thanksgiving together, everybody's together all the time. Like there's times when my mom has my dad his wife over, my aum uncle on my dad's side, like at our house. Yeah,

everybody's pretty so it's a pretty amicable beyond. Like there was a party my mom and dad had to go to but my dad's wife couldn't go, and my mom was like, oh, I gotta go be with daddy. He doesn't have anybody to hang out with. Like everybody's just really yeah. I had like the opposite, so my real quick. My mom, you know, married my dad, and then her brother fell in love with my dad's sister and they got married. So it was like brother and sister married

brother and not really you know what I mean. Um. So then when my parents split, my aunt and uncle didn't, so it made it very awkward at family events. And I actually had a birthday party where I insisted when I was little, I was like, I really want mom and dad here. Man, was that a mistake? That place blew up? I ended up sitting on the curb with my cousins. What what what birthday? Thirty? No, I'm kidding. It was probably like yeah, probably like eight or something.

Are your parents both alive now? No? My father passed. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No thanks. Um did they ever get along again? Yeah? Yeah, yeah so they Um, it was around the time their first grandchild was born. Um, that's when it kind of started. Was that your first child?

My brothers? Um? And uh, they started kind of. I remember being at the hospital with both of them in the waiting room waiting for my niece when she was born, and I sarcastic, like I am I turning, I go, is this the first time you guys were in the

hospital together since I was born? Or like the waiting room and they were just and it kind of kind of broke the rotten Yeah, and um, and so it started then and then and then over the years from there they started getting along better, like they could then go together again. Yeah. This that's It's such a fascinating world to me because my parents just celebrated their forty five and winning anniversary a couple of weeks ago, which is amazing. And so I don't have experience with divorce. Um,

my wife's parents are divorced. They're both happily remarried. But that's my closest experience with it. I have friends that have had parents divorced, but I can't I cannot begin to imagine what it does to a life at the age of four, at the age of twenty, whatever age you are where your parents divorced. I I just I can't imagine what those emotions are. I think it messes you up and then you're fine. I will say this.

When I was younger, I used to want that. We used to want them back together, and I used to want that whole family, Christmas and the whole thing. And as I got older and I saw who they were, individual and stuff, I'm actually glad that they got to I'm not glad that it was it went down the way it went down, like kind of them not getting along. But I think I'm better off in my life having experience with them living their lives the way they wanted to and not trying to make it work together. I'm

okay with it now. When I when it first happened, I remember someone saying to me, I know, this seems like the worst thing ever, and that you'll never get over it. And he said in six months you won't remember. And it wasn't quite that, but the words were pretty true, like it's so major and then you, yeah, it's okay, Well it's not my fault. Oh sorry. Kevin and I did an interview the other day and Kevin said, it's a hard conversation to have with somebody when you have

to say it's not me, it's you. I was just laughing at us, like, oh buddy, we got we got some things we need to talk about. But that's what we're going to get into today. We have two uh special guests that have a very happy and enjoyable now. Now it's a process. I'll say that it's a process. We'll get into their story after. But um, for people that are divorced, there's hope that there is an amicable cordial and even friendly life after divorce. And just so

you know, their divorce is not my fault either. Nobody's keeping score here, buddy, Gavin will probably blame me. So in the house with us right now we have Nikki de Bartelow and Benjamin health one. Okay, come on, how are you guys doing today? Thank you for coming in to our studio. I appreciate that. How are you guys doing? Thank you? Thank you for having us doing well. Everything's good.

Thank you for having us real studio, like real studio is we're trying to We're trying to tap it at Gavin's house one day, but for the time, we'll have to get it cleaned first, like not not like a garage podcast set up and you know, a couple of mics and the computer. It's a really this is real. This is why we all got paid because Aby blows all our budget on the studio. We're paying the mortgage. Um, So I want to bring in or I want to get your guys this story now. Benjamin you want to

go first, Mickey, you want to go first. So so it is. It's it's a journey into finding a different kind of love and Nick and I were married, Uh, seven years. Um, we had a beautiful son together. Um, we end up getting a divorce, and it serves our journey into how we got to where we are today twelve years later. Um, she's remarried, I'm remarried. We have this you know, lack of a better word, modern family. Um,

and it's it didn't just start off like that. There was there's a there's a lot of intricacies and a lot of as when people get divorced, a lot of resentment and anger and fear and everything that goes through. But we were able to simply just put our put ours on first was our sort of guiding light. And every decision we made, whether that be romance, finance, all that sort of things that spiral divorces. Um, we just every decision had to answer that question. And that was

right from the start. No, no, hod okay. Right from the start, it was dropping him off at each other's house with like a babysitter and not seeing each other and not talking to each other. And realized the only thing we were doing was hurting him and eventually it would have been I mean, it would have ended up ruining his life if we would have kept on the path that we were going on. And he was seven at the time, he was three four, three and a half.

And you know, one of the things that I've blessed about that we talked about in the book is is and I say blessed because I had to go through this as as with my own parents divorce, and it was not the greatest divorce. And you know, I was more or less weaponized. Uh, not so drastically, but you know, we were sort of port in the middle of it. And for a while there, I was filled with all that stuff I talked about, and I was gonna, you know, make her it was her fault. She everything ending in

the marriage was her fault. Everything, you know, just pointing finger at her. And uh. I had hired this lawyer who sort of sparked or at it, uh fire to the to the fire, and was you know, he was telling me what I wanted to hear. It's her fault, will get her and all this stuff. And I spent a bunch of money and he wrote up this, uh, I guess action plan, you know, business plan if you will, on like how to go after how we're gonna you know, embarrass her and do all this and make it a

big public deal. Sound like a lawyer. Oh no, not at all. Right, Yeah, he had no incentive to have a long, ugly divorce. So uh. He had written this thing up and I kept it and I didn't read it, and there was something inside of me, and I don't know what it was, but I kept in my backpack that I always carry around for like six weeks and I never opened it up. And for some I was flying back from l a uh on a trip and I opened it up and I read the first two pages.

And it was at that moment that you know, I could see things clearly. It was like I had all that other resembment and all that other stuff was gone, and I saw that if I go down this route, I'm gonna cause the same damage to my son that happened. I'm gonna we're nick and I are going to rack up a huge emotional bill and they can't pay for

it for something he had no choice. So at that point, um, you know, I think Nicky was doing her own work on herself and I was doing I I called her and I said, look, we can't talk about this right now. Like I have to do some things in my life to get myself right before we can even, uh, you know, start talking about the divorce. And and so I just worked with some guy I knew, and we went through

and it was only about my part. We never we never talked about what she did or what, you know, her fault, and it was it was all about finding my you know, mistakes and the divorce and and what I came to realize that it takes two to make it, and it takes you to break it, and you no matter what she had done, no matter what I, you know, did,

all I could focus on myself. So so at what point, how many months or years after the separation is this when you have this realization and you start doing this work. It was about four months maybe, so it's it's relatively new, it's relatively new. Maybe a little bit longer. I think it was about four months, yeah, now maybe yeah, because I know that I I decided to take three months.

It was sort of my goal was to take three months and do what I needed to do and and and at the end of the whole work is sort of another burning bush or clarity moment. I like looked at this stuff and I was like, you know what I wouldn't want to be married to me either. You know,

I was a terrible, miserable person. And you know that introspection or that you know, that that clarity of like, God, you were just a bad, bad guy, you know, bad husband, bad father, bad everything, and again nothing to what she did. You know, it was and about her at that point, it's about me. Kudos to you, man, because that's some that's some hard self reflection, and that's some work that I think a lot of people are not willing to do.

It doesn't it doesn't have to be even just in a relationship or coming out of a relationship, just in their own life. Like to take a reflection of who I am as an individual, how I show up in the world, and how does my presence and my actions impact people around me, and then to look at yourself and say, wow, I'm not proud of who I am. This is not who I want to be. I own these faults. Good for you, man. And then the other

part of that was forgiving myself. Right, So the first step was to go through it and to look at it and you know, come to that realization and then forgive myself and then call Nikki. And I was getting messed up when I say this, but all the time, I'm really soft. Yeah, me too, good, Okay, I can cry together. You got a shoulder. We're a little farther.

But so I called Nikki for coffee, and the first thing I told her was I was sorry, you know, and I loved her, and you know, I'm sorry for everything I did to cause the end of our marriage. And she then in turn apologized to me and told me it's very hard for me to do right, which we joked. I don't think it was the only time, the only time, the only time we ever apologized to each other. But but at that moment there was space to move like. It wasn't about pointing finger at her.

It wasn't about pointing finger. That's what started, I mean, that's what made this. That was a turning point for sure. Was his apology to you, is what. Yes, that's what started. Did it surprise you? He did surprise me because I somehow knew about some of the other stuff he was doing, like working on behind my back. N So I I didn't know that. No, I did not. I did not. I just happened to know enough people that told me things right. But as long as we passed all that anything.

So he he apologized to you sort of somewhat surprising. Let's say, and how how does that make you feel? That he he doesn't blame you, He doesn't. He's like, I own this, this is my fault, and I just want to say sorry. How does that make you feel? Because I think that's a noble act. No, that's that is what made me go, Okay, it's time, like it's time for us to sit down and figure this out, like we can't keep going down this path. Yeah, let

me ask this. So he apologized, said he did all these things wrong, and then he said that you also apologize. Now was that did you just apologize because hey, he apologize or did you really feel like you had done something that you could apologize for. No. I definitely did things throughout the marriage that I you know, I was a huge part. I was the other half of what made this fail. So ye, man, yeah, sorry, that's what

I like that. I like that I did not spend those four months trying to right, four months going like what the hell am I gonna do? Like? Here is this woman with it? Has this child? I mean, yes, I have a family that I'm really close to you, But what am I gonna do? Like that's the last I mean, that's how old was I don't know, thirty, I don't know, but I mean that's the last thing any woman wants to be be in Tampa with a child by yourself. So that was frightening, and so I

went through four months of being scared understandably. Yeah, it's a failure, you know, I mean, nobody gets into it, and there's a lot of sham or at least there was a lot of shame for me about the failure and guilt about your son, and you know, we were easily could have fallen into that category and repeating the cycle of what my parents did? You know? And from that moment of apology, the next question I had asked or was do you have any problem with joint custody? Joint?

And she said absolutely not. She goes, you're the father of our son, and I go I looked at her and I said, you know, everything else can we worked out? Like the other stuff is trivial, Like that's the important thing is we can't burden him with our choices. Like we chose to get married, we chose to get pregnant, we chose to get divorced, and here's this innocent being who had no choice in it, but we're gonna stick

them with you know this nonsense. Yeah, So I have a quick question, Ben Nicky, and so thanks for coming in the uh so, how did you navigate that with your son at the time as you were kind of getting said sorry to each other and you know, and you weren't dropping him off at babysitters and each other's homes and you weren't seeing each other or whatever, like, how did you kind of did you did you bridge that gap with your son at the same time and

say to him, hey, look, we're sorry. What what's going on right now? You know, you know, we want to sit you down and talk to you and and and he's so yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess it's kind of hard when he's three, but you know, he obviously got older. He was he was really young, but really smart. Like I don't know where he got it, but he's

really smart. So there were certain things that like if you look back, he'll say he'll even tell us that he remember seeing boxes, Like I don't know how he ever saw a box because we never but there's certain things he remembers about him leaving, So there was I mean, we knew that we had to be as honest with him as we possibly could because he got it. And that, to me is what is also what started this because I mean, he's four years old and he got it,

like he knew. So you can't hide this stuff from kids, right, It's interesting is you can't. And we thought for a while there we wanted to protect him, right, so I would I was staying at a hotel and I would drive every morning home before he got up to have breakfast, you know, to pretend like I was there at night. And one day he looked at me and he said, where did you sleep last night, daddy? And this is a four year old kid, and I'm like, I slept

in the bed. He goes, well, you didn't make must much of a mess in your bed or something like he had noticed that nikky side of the bed. So like, we gotta give our kids more credit, no matter what their age is, for being aware and mindful of what's

going on, and that's something we had done wrong. But but after that it was um, it was just something that we when we're around him, we tried to keep even I think when it was bad, we tried to keep at least a unified front of everything's fine, but kids, you know, like I said, And after you guys made those apologies together, then that unified front started to form a little bit better, I'm sure. And then that that helped him out a lot a lot more it did.

Oh yeah, that was our turning point is the fact that I went to We went to school. This is what made us realize, Okay, we're doing something right. We went to school for like parents, like whatever your parent teachers for four year old open house. Yes, And we said to her we've recently split up, and she looked at us and said, really, this kid hasn't skipped a beat. So that made us. That was like, okay, we are doing something right because this child is not missing anything.

So we're doing it right. Like whatever we're doing, we've got to keep doing. It would have been horrible if she was like, yeah, I know, and he tells me. He would tell anybody. He tells people everything, so it wasn't like he was keep the So this is a four months you you sort of mend this, or begin to mend this. At least you set down the weapons.

What what's the path? Then what follows after that? Um, you just begin working together, collaborating together, almost same team in a different way than being married, but same team that you're both on board for what's best for your son. And then does you like your book now is called Our Happy Divorce, does it start to become happier between

you two after that? I wish I could say that, you know, we clicked our snapped our fingers and everything was perfect, right, but we had a commitment now or a mission said whatever you want to say, that it was about asher, right, and there's so much more room. Yeah, there's so much more room to move at that point. And so I've been looking online about this thing called

collaborative divorce, and it was relatively new in Florida. It's now a really big It's in a lot of statutes of states, and there's a there's a process for it. But basically what it is is the difference is instead of me calling my lawyer, my lawyer calling Nikki's lawyer, Nicky's lawyer calling her her telling you know, the game and telephone and you know how that that gets screwed up after like the second person, right, So, uh is

everybody's in the room together, and everybody's talking together. But we actually went one step further, um, and I think I told her we agreed, let's just see if we agree on what we agree upon, let's treat this like almost like a business thing, and see, let the business people make the business decisions and then give it to

the lawyers. Because I because of my experience with the other lawyer, it was like, not they're not all bad, you know, but this guy was like, you know, feeding me my own bs, like, you know, because he saw the big shiny, you know, two year divorce and whatever that costs. And so we just sat down at the same coffee shop where we had apologize to each other, and we just worked it out. And it was amazingly easy. When we had that what's best for asher finances fell

into place, that you know, timeshare fell into place. Everything just sort of fell in place. So then we did it ourselves, gave it to a lawyer and said draw it up. My lawyer was pissed. I paid the other guy three times as much to write that game plan or whatever on how to get out of the whole deal, and and you know, to make it embarrassing and so she was pissed. She kept going to be sure you're okay with I'm like, yeah, draw it up. Yeah, And how did you feel with that? You were the same,

you were excited that, like you're not faking it. Obviously you're both on board with this. You're we're definitely not We definitely couldn't fake this. Ll No. I mean, it's it just was so much easier. I mean, like the heartache of going through it just was sort of I mean, it's still there, but it's just taken away, Like there's just the pain is the pain went, and the pain went, but like you said, like it didn't just all of a sudden get better, like this is twelve years in

the making, Like this is not. It was like progress every day. We weren't looking for perfection. You guys make me want to get a divorce so bad. Now. There's a difference between are happy divorce and happily divorced, right, there's a big difference. Some people are happily divorce because they don't have to be with the others are happy. But it was there was a lot of faking, like you brought up, there was a there was some faking it,

Like we joke around. We faked until we made it. Like, you know, she started dating somebody who's here, who's a great guy that that I had known, that we had known before. And you know, when when he would come the Asher's baseball games, like I had to go over there and put all my big boy pants and swallow my ego and you know, pretend like everything was okay.

My insides were being torn apart, you know all that, you know, fear or anger and you know, my manhood and here's another guy with my ex wife and with my son. And but I put on a you know, a smile and sort of just developed into okay, you know what, she's gonna be with somebody eventually. Why not make it somebody who was a good guy who loves my son like I do, and is good. Is a good influence, It makes her happy. I don't want a miserable ex wife. I didn't want a miserable wife, much

less a miserable ex wife. You know, I want a happy with ex wife. Let's not leave on handsome, great hair. I thought, what do I have? Right? I thought to ask you guys, and I don't want to mess this up, But don't you all live like within a block of each other. Can you tell the guys about that. I'm gonna explain that because we chat at night, we're looking for a piece of property to buy that we were like, oh, let's let's make an investment. So we buy this piece

of property down the street from our house. Yes, it would be a really good investment for us. We're gonna hold on to it. Two days later, we sold it to you for the exact price we bought it. No, No, you called me because I was with Asher at that golf camp. You called because we were looking for a place to build the house. She called me and said, I bought you a piece of land. I was like, Nikki, what happens if I don't want like it? Like you just bought it. She's like, well, if you don't buy

a chat and I'll do an investment or something. But I bought you a piece of land. So she turned around and sold to me for two and it's five houses down uh from so Asher, we the streets names Longfellow. We call him the long Fellow creeper because he goes. He loves the fish and it's on the water. So he'll be at my house and he'll creep over to Nikki's house and so we don't even know something like call Nick goes her son over there and she looks

out the winning ice fishing outside. So I just want to applaud you too, because I don't think I could do that. I don't think like I have zero contact with anybody that was formerly in my life. I can't.

I don't know. You were far more emotionally advanced than I. I think, in fact, most of us, most of us, if we knew that our ex or whatever was trying to buy a piece of properly, tried to buy it round underneath them, or you could just egg their house every ten but they but like the deal is if you look, and that's what I just tried to explain to people who look at this forum. And you know, we just got off a trip, uh, just the three of us, Nikki Asher and myself to Africana Safari without Chad,

her husband, and without my wife and two kids. And it was so that this is the sort of combination. So you fast forward twelve years as sure when he was a kid was everybody has kids, you know, they're upset, they get obsessed with one thing, if it whether it's like my little ones obsessed with Spider Man or dinosaurs or and Ash was animals. He was like an animal encyclopedia. He would read animal encyclopedias. And so we always wanted we always knew we were gonna take him to Africa,

or he wanted to go to Africa. But with the shots and everything you need to do, well, there's that sus. You guys are great parents, because the zoo sucks. If you go to Africa, you see the authentic, real thing, the real zews when you see them in the wild.

So the thing is that if anyone really well really would have set us the divorce, south wouldn't have been the romance, finance and all the other nonsense that it would have been if the other one had taken the other one or Asher to Africa without the other one. So that's the kicker. But that's where our life is. Is. I tell my wife, Yeah, I tell my wife, now, I'm going to Africa with Nikki and Asher. And she doesn't say, oh, hell no, you're not going to Africa

with your ex wife. Are you crazy sleeping alone in the bush or whatever, And instead she goes, that's great, ashe would love it. I don't know if I could do that. Man. That's what makes this crazy is because you've we have two more like there's a wife and there's a husband, so it all has to work. It's all like you know, that's the thing. How do they have that patience or how do they have that composure?

Because I'm like, I'm listening to this and hopefully I'm like, I love my wife and I hope to never get divorced. But I'm sure there's people out there listening to this saying no, that would never happen. I never allow that. I never like, how how do your significant what are you Chad right here when that came to him? Like, what was your respond to that? When they said, hey, by the way, Africa, this is where the story gets interesting. I don't even like, I really don't like that, and

I hunt, I don't even like animals. You brought it up about you don't have any contact with anyone in your in your past life, but you don't share a child with that persons. You know, that's where the differences, and I think that's where these two are to be commended is because they made it all about the child, this happy divorce, This modern family is all about the kids. Ben's two kids. You know, work close to them. They

think I'm their stepfather. You know, they come to our sometimes stay a little too, but in our house all the time, we go trick or treating together, you know, we go on vacation together. So the part I think that's hard to understand is once you introduced to children into it, without the children, yours act the right. I don't think any of us would argue with you. You know, good written's good luck with moving forward. That's the that's the the nicest I'm gonna be have a good day.

And that's not what this was about. It was about moving forward. Uh, you know, for for ashs sake. First, it actually makes listen to you talk too. It actually makes sense to me now because how cool for him to be in Africa with his mom and his dad. That's how the how Africa trip is unique. But to share it with just his parents, not the step kids, I mean, you know, not not their step not a stepparents, but just those two that's priceless. So that's what I

was gonna ask. That was set up just to be the two of you, Like, there was never a point where it was like, Oh, Chad, do you want to come? It was we were invited to go. Number one, I wasn't gonna travel twenty nine hours on a plane to go. I had, you know, I work in Tampa. I couldn't take that much time off and it just wasn't gonna work. But more importantly, I felt it was time that he should spend with those two. You know, you bring in a different dynamic. We do enough of that. It needed

to be just the three of them. That's that's something that we've talked about since he was a little kid, obsessed with every every animal that's that's known to be uh uh from from Africa. And I didn't want to take that from you. Just didn't want to get the shots because if it was, you'd be there. I didn't. You were like, You're like, why would I go somewhere hotter than Tampa that doesn't have air conditioning? First of all, drink yellow water. Trip. How did the trip go? It

was amazing. Nobody died, right, nobody accidentally. I don't even think we got enough fight while we were gone. There was one uh well, there was one that you were more yelling at ash Or and I for being you know, whatever we were doing. But but no, it went great. I mean, nobody there, Like I said, there was no accidental slips off of the Safari into the line ride

or there was no uh. But the funny thing is this conversation phones didn't work anywhere but in their rooms, so that made it, I mean like we were forced to talk. But the other thing is that the we see people's faces was priceless and I wish I had

more video of it. But like we were obviously staying in separate tents or cabins and so but people would like look and I go asture slept with her because you really in the middle of the elephants were walking by, really in the middle of it, and so they would look and they walked past me and to get dropped off, and she was going to the other one, and we'd have to explain, oh, she's my ex wife, you know, and then they would even get what yeah, because we

weren't staying in the same at the same time. But it was great, I mean it was it was first of all that story. It was amazing that we did it like that. But but being in Africa is just a hole that you said, you know, it's just an amazing, life changing experience. Country where Buttswana? I want to go there. I mean, it was just you can't even explain it. I don't even have enough vocabularity explain how amazing and humbling it was. So I gotta, I gotta. I guess

I'll be the guy to asked this. No we didn't sleep together, No, no, no. But while all this was going on, while you guys were figuring out how to be happily divorced, was there ever a moment you're like, well, maybe we could have made this work. No, no, no unanimous consent. No, no, there there there was. There was a reason we were married. That child, he asher was meant to be here. He's he's beyond special. And I mean obviously his mother, I'm must say that, but he

was meant to be here. And I think that's I mean, don't you agree I agree to play? I mean there was you know when I looked at my part, you know, through that whole exercises, there walked through every red light, you know, and and it's nothing that you know, every warning sign. I remember, Yeah, she was sick on the wedding day, went down, took my dress off, and had

to go put something else and they was sick. You mean like that she just carried me like food point is not like allergic to me, Like I can't believe I'd married that dude. No, it's and I remember looking at the mirror, uh, you know, my tuxedo on and getting my hair done, going, this isn't right. I mean, if I'm being honest with myself, like I I remember that day, like yesterday, that this just wasn't like all the red lights have gone with a double breast of jacket. No,

you're right, I messed it up. But but again everything is I wouldn't go back and change one single thing. And that's the thing that I think the story with the messages is like I am so grateful for my life today and you look back on it can't be selectively grateful, right, Like I can't say I'm grateful for this, but I'm not grateful for that. So it's it's like it's like the painting, right, each one's broad stroke and it only works if everything's together. So you know, I've

suffered from drug addiction, alcoholism. I've been sober twenty five years. You know, I had this terrible low one in my life with the divorce, and but I'm grateful for it all. You know, I'm grateful for this stuff I had to go through as a kid with my parents, you know, because if I didn't go through that, who knows if I would have changed actor's outcome. So so you know, it's I'm happy that it all happened. I'm grateful at all.

And also we wouldn't have the lives we have today going through that or find And that's the thing that like when you see divorce couples who are remarried, have kids or moved on with their life, and yet they still hold on to that anger and that bitterness and all that other negative stuff towards their X and they can't just take a step back and go, wait a second, if this didn't happen, I didn't get there, I wouldn't

have the life I have today. So it all, you know, it's sort of a just you know, just show up and it happens all for a reason. Can I ask you a question, do you and I think I already know the answer, but do you both genuinely wish the absolute best for each other? That's amazing. So that's amazing. That's except because how many people leave a divorce, enter a divorce and just have bitterness, resentment and want the other person to suffer the rest of their life or

you know, and it's still that capacity. I applaud you. And not only that is you know Nikki uh so, I Naddy and my wife, um and I sort of had this tumultuous relationship because I was because I was a douche bag, right, I mean I I really wasn't. Although I had done all this work on myself, I just wasn't ready to commit again or to get married again because I still had this idea of marriage and

parents my own marriage failure. I have done my work around the marriage part and how I have you marriage? Um and so, but Nadi wanted to get married, and she wanted to have all the things that I already had I wanted. I was just happy with her being my girlfriend for the rest of my life, right, and so she left for the last time before you you know, I got engaged. But it was Nikki, who you know, called me on my bs and she's like, you're not going to find a better woman that what are you doing?

You're gonna end up old and lonely. You know. Yeah, it's gonna be revolving. Yeah, you're gonn allowing for the rest of your life. And it was her. You're you're letting the bath. You're letting a really good thing. Go step up and marry that woman. So Max wife, So yes, does she genuinely? Yeah? What a gift? Yeah? What advice would you have for people in our community? Are listeners that are in a divorce maybe you're in a bad relationship with this ex husband or wife would just want

to open the mic to you guys too. To give any advice to our community as you see fit, you have to forgive yourself first. Can you unpack that a little more? You have to realize how much, no matter what happened in this marriage and who did what whatever, you had a part in it. A huge pardon it. You have to learn how to forgive yourself before you can forgive somebody else. Wow, So take ownership of your role. Yeah.

And the other thing is, like, I think the message that we right to get across in the book and hopefully people can still hold no matter how you know, what the other person did or no matter what the situation is. Obviously, you know, let's make a caveat for some you know, physical abuse and you know some some uh nonstarters, right, but you know, uh, everybody who's gone is going through that bad divorce and hates their X

and which is all that ill and everything. If I were to ask them when they lay in front of a bus for their kids, I'm almost certain that everybody would say yes, right, but you don't understand that what you're doing is basically stepping out of the way and letting your kids get hit by the bus, you know, unintentionally, but through all the all the resentment, all the anger, and so just take a step back from somebody who's been through it, right, who had to go through it

is It is a tough place to be when your two parents, who you love equally are you know, talking about each other or whatever, and you have to sit there and you have to take it right and instead, if it's somebody else where to talk about your parents

like that, you probably punched him in the face. You know, you're a hockey guy, you understand it, right, so, uh you know, so so you know you But but as a thirteen year old, I had to sit there and I had to take it, you know, and just swallow it because and well, you know, love my dad, I love my mom, and and they were parenting from a place of not parent of the year, but favorite parents, right, And it's just it's unintentional. They didn't mean to do it.

You know, my mom read the book and she called me and she said she was sorry, you know, for everything, And I go, Mom, you know, you know, I told her the whole grateful thing. Maybe who I am, so I don't have to repeat those mistakes. And that's so so anybody out there just like put the kids first, like you signed up for, you did it. And I hope I don't want to sound preachy, but like I am, you're speaking, but I want to know what you're Nicki and Ben, what your take is on couples that are

let's say, not happy. It's not a disaster, but they're in a marriage. It's not great and they know that, but they stayed together for the kids. This seems to be the eternal debate on whether that is a good idea or a terrible idea. I mean, my opinion is I think it's a terrible idea because we were like that, We weren't in a bad place. We weren't. I mean, we were like two ships passing in the night like

we were friends. It wasn't like we didn't fight with it, just we thought sometimes but not not terribly, you know, but not get yelled at friend and you didn't deserve. But but what a beautiful thing I could say. That's my ex wife with her husband standing or not getting knocked out, right, you know. But it wasn't like right, I mean it's but I mean it is everybody. Everybody wants to be a princess, every little girl wants to be a princess. And Ryan shot across the battle of

that cont Nikki. Don't just disregarding we, we all disregard him. So please good hair, Thank you good. I've been admiring your current husband Chads too. It's freaking look game recognizing game. This is an important question. So get back to my hair. H How are is eyebrows? That's what I really want? Nice, so shapely, perfectly? Enough about me, let's talk about me. Yeah, I don't even I don't even question. Is it should couples that are moderately unhappy stay together for the kids

or is that a bad idea? Like there's couples that are just like looking at their watch. Until the kids go to college and to see a dinner that are all on their phones and nobody's talking to each other. No, because the kids are gonna end up feeling it. They feel I mean, kids aren't stupid. They feel when there's not love between two people. They I mean, they get it. Yeah, and they and I'm I'm like, we're not marriage counselors, or we don't pretend to be. You know, we don't

have a bunch of initials behind our names. You know, we're just like to ordinary people who did an extra order, imagine how much can be if they were in love with somebody? Can I propose a question? Proposes before? But all right, when you get married, you say I do to the concept of forever. Get divorced, you say I do again to the concept of forever. Should there be a statute that says there is a limited amount of

times you were permitted to say forever legally. Therefore, how many times you're permitted to get married and say I do forever? Because the way I'm seeing the concept of marriage in these modern times, it's sort of like forever for now, forever, forever temporarily. What is it. I mean, I don't understand, like you know, I understand getting divorced, getting remarried. I get it. Now what say I'm not saying it's going to happen. Let's see you guys get divorced.

Are you gonna get married and say forever again? Do you think what kind of that? I'm asking a normal marriage question where people get married and remarried. I get it because so much like, alright, that went wrong? I think maybe I got married young, maybe something's went wrong. I needed some self correction, it was the wrong timing for us, blah blah blah blah blah. But should there be let's say, government intervention. I wonder what of how many times you're permitted to say for every when it

comes to marriage. I think maybe two should be the permanential, and because otherwise three it's kind of like, oh, let's see this forever again thing, and they'll let people some people getting right four or five times six at some points again at something mother at that point, at some point, it's kind of like, well, when you were saying, well, I feel like I could have been dating forever just

boyfriend girlfriend. Well, I'm not anti marriage at all, but I am a little bit anti five marriages and forever again, five times ever, and it's like doing the same thing over. I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot more relationships with friends of mine in Europe who don't get married that lasts way longer than a lot of the marriages I've seen with friends of mine in the United States.

You know what I'm saying, and and you know the next I mean, there's a lot of knock against the millennials, right the quote unquote millennials, but they got it right. And then the reason the divorce rates going down is because they're waiting. They're not getting married four when I got married. Here's a question, what is because I believe the status that fifty of all marriages end in divorce,

what is the percent of second marriages that end? I don't know, but I wonder if it's like last it's not the bit I don't know the answer that must be, but it's it's true, like he's gonna, he's gonna, let us know. Googling this wondering proposed law, I think a lot of people would hold on the second marriage wouldn't better. You like it, and you can't time from you and you've said some dumb things over the course of podcast, but because I was quoting you all those other times.

All right, here we go. Fifty percent of first marriages, sixty seven percent of second, seventy four percent of third marriages, and in divorce. Second marriages have difficulty for a number of reasons. See once the person. Once a person discovers that he or she can manage divorce, they are less scared of going through it again. It makes sense, right, because it's it's and then you're sitting up. But you're

sitting up at the altar the third time. You're like, hey, if this doesn't work, I've gotten rid of two more. It's an easy thing you do, right, And you're thinking it's just a car wash, and you're just sometimes people get married the second time to not be alone, right, short suit and that and that doesn't last very long. Um, well, you guys are as four or five weddings in your first week recycling White Peter. Okay, let's talk about the book. The book is called Our Happy Divorce, How Ending our

marriage brought us together? Um, what can people find in this book? And then where can they find this book? Your story? Yeah, it's basically our story, and we sort of took a attack of this sort of if you've ever watched the show The Affairs where we alternate chapters and it's a lot of it's around like the coffee shop meeting, it would be my perspective and what I did before. And then then Nikki kind of chimes in on what she was expecting, what she was feeling when

I called her and asked her for coffee. Um, and then the beautiful thing is, look, this thing is four years in the making, right we start. I got her convinced. I convinced her to write this book four years in the making, and plenty of times I told him to stop. Oh yeah, I mean she she could. There was those of us who might buy one. You didn't put it up your but we would get in a fight, and she said, I'm not doing your f and book and

you can shove it up you know where. So as soon as it got out of you know where, we finally wrote it. And then at that time, actually the relationship gotten better and the modern family sort of evolved. So we brought Chad and uh not into it, and they wrote a chapter two and so they have a chapter and then Asher put the ball on it at the end, which just a beauty And actually it is his essay, uh that he wrote, I'm crying what guys,

cherryot come I used to cry that. Come on? He wrote on our family thank you you could say so he wrote it was about people you admire and he or person that your meire and so he wrote his unevoked you know, we didn't convince him to do it. He wrote it on his own. And he said his parents for what they did so so cool. He was like my dad's first attorney. So where can people find the book? When does the book come out? We can pre order on Amazon. Uh, it's called Our Happy Divorce

or Mascot books dot Com under our Happy Divorce. And it's probably easier because everybody does the prime and uh, you know social media everything in Amazon are Happy Divorce dot Com. Because what we're really trying to do is this isn't about us. You know, we understand, we're humble enough to realize that we're not the only people in this world that are doing the thing right. But hopefully, and and and what I see today on social media is that there there are plenty of people doing this.

So let's let's let's try to change the conversation. Well, let's try to you know, we know that our way wasn't the only way. Like you know, there are people who done did it other ways, but they evolved approach to it. Yeah, I mean it's not like we understand, we're not experts and that not not everybody's gonna end up. And also reality and everybody's gonna end up going to Africa with their ex wife for you know, hang out, go to UFCS with her husband, fights with her husband,

and you know, Nadia and Nikki are best friends. You know, they call each other. It started off as ex wife call each other ex wife, then evolved his sister wives and now they just call each other wives. You know. So we know that not everybody's gonna end up like that, but there are different degrees of that. And as long as you can put the kids first, and you can put all your nonsense and check your ego and all that other stuff, put on your big boy pants, you

know it's time. You know, thank you guys so much. Anything to add now Van seems to take over the mic times it's hard to get a word and edge with Ben never saw Mike I didn't like no. I wrote a song for this particularly. I can't see why you two didn't work out alright, Thank you both so much. The book is called Our Happy Divorce by Nikki to Bartolo and Benjamin health fond. Thank you guys so much for sharing your thank you. Thank you Wow, that was awesome,

Nicki and ben what a what an evolution? What what a the grace and poised to have a happy divorce? Pick up the book Our Happy Divorce even hanging with the new husband and the new husband here to Chad here. I don't know that I could have ever get if I was in that situation. Hopefully I'm not, but ever get to that. So kudos to those two. Um, anybody listening in our in our community. That is an exceptional

model for peace, peaceful agreement after divorce. And you brought up something during their interview that I wanted to ask all of you about that I thought was kind of interesting. You said you are not in touch with any of your exes. I don't have any excess amy, he has zero history. Because I thought I'm in touch with I thought you're gonna so I don't think I have Let's say I have let's say have ten and the couple that I don't talk to on a regular basis, it

kills me that I don't talk to them. I don't know. That's why I wanted to talk to you guys about it. And the ex is that I am close with. I probably talked to you every week, maybe once a month. Handled your contact with all your excess? No issue? So that's why I wanted to ask you guys, like, are you sure there's no issue? Positive? Pause a tip positive? So she's so I want to do all of you not But I'm not married, So I wanted to see

you do not keep in touch with any excess. I think because the fact that you're not married means that, of course, like you're not date, you're not in a relationship too, So who's who? Thank you? Y, that's not true. Who's gonna gets in a relationship? Not in a relationship. If I'm in a relationship, I still talk to the excess. I've been in many relationships where I'm still talking to excess. So how dare you? But second of all, you have

you ever been in a relationship? Have you ever been a relationship that made you feel like you just didn't want to talk to any of your other exes, and since you haven't been in a relationship that made you not want to talk to any of them, was that, in essence, your heart telling you that you weren't being fulfilled? No, okay,

great question, Thank you. I believe that you. And again, I'm not married to all the married people can like yell at me, but I feel super fulfilled in a relationship and I am like all in everything and I'm super happy. But I think the rest of my life is also fulfills me too, and I'm not willing to no matter how much I love someone, I'm still those friendships are really important to me, really, and I don't

feel bad about that. I'm I'm friends Like my wife and I we both were both friends with our ex is like on Facebook and stuff, and like I don't call him and talk every week at all, but she doesn't, like, do you the same? But we're friends with him on Facebook? Like it doesn't. I'm extremely secure in our relationship. Listen, if if one of us wanted to be with one of them, then we would have been. So I have no problem keeping a you know, a like a friendship

like that open. I don't think there's anything wrong. You ever bought your wife's acts a plot of land five houses down and I was gonna I've been married so long. I don't even know who my ex is. It's actually not joking, like, do you have any I don't think so. I don't know where they are, so I I can't like so I would say, I would say, like, and I'm just well, maybe people can email us men at

iHeart Radio because I'm so curious about this. So, especially when I'm having a hard time in a relationship, I really do lean on those x is for advice, and a lot of people are like about that. Maybe that's why you always call me and you're like, this is

going on in my life. I'm a tragic mass because you've got ten exes in your life, giving you ten different Back to the Amy Show, but I just wanted to I think those are the conversations you need to be having with your current boyfriend, calling your ten x is and asking their advice on what you should say to your current boyfriend. You need to have the conversation directly with that person, and that's the route I think you should call me. I'll tell you what to say.

That's also an option. I don't I can't even honestly, I can't even understand or fathom this. And this is just me. This isn't saying this is right or wrong. And I'm not giving advice to anybody but myself. I don't feel like having that be a current part of my life anymore while I'm married to my wife. I don't see value in it. That's just me, and that's that's She's not requested that. She hasn't said you can't talk to anybody. That's just me personally. Yeah, I think

it's interesting conversation. But you do have female friends. Yeah, I have female friends. That's actually one thing that I love about being married is that my friendships with with females has grown immensely. Because sometimes I would be friends with a girl and she would think that I was interested in her, and then it would get awkward or something in her. But now that i'm may read, everybody knows that I'm married. I love my wife, and so my friendships with women, with women in my life, like

friends in my life, have blossomed well. And I'm sure you could probably be more open to them in having whatever you're talking about, you know, and because you're already securing your relationship with your wife, makes that relationship more valuable and more open. Ryan, do you have friends that are women other than me? He's in a hair club. I'm not allowed. Of course I didn't. Yeah, I'm not allowed.

But the salon all the time. I get me with this man here with those dryers over your head, stick to box jumps and let the comedy come from us where No. I actually, as much as I hate to admit it, I agree with Brooks in the sense that I my X before my wife, that chapter was that chapter, and when I met my wife it was I didn't want there to be any potential sign of disrespect by me continuing to speak to someone so as to convey

that I'm not all in on this. And by the way, what also what also comes into play here is how things ended with your ex if it if it ended amicably, and it was a mutual thing. In my ex's case, it did not amicably, So it was a no brainer. I was not going to continue a conversation. So here's my question on that. And maybe Gavin has an opinion because he seems to take my side a lot. So I literally was in love with someone for a year, maybe even little more. Every day. They were my number

one top priority every day everything. But I still talked to my ex who I'm super close with, all the time. I wasn't attracted to him. I wasn't like anything attraction off like that like a switch. Interesting question. I can only be attracted to one person at a time, and when I'm into that one person, it's like I don't see anybody else. And then when it's when that ends

or whatever, and it's someone else, then it's them. And the other day even was like looking at this someone I used to think, was like I was so attracted to him, I was like, could I just be attracted to him again? Can I just be attracted to him again? So let me ask you this question very simply, why do you need to have contact with your exes? What purpose in your life does that fulfill? I'm not saying

it's wrong, just asking why. Tons I mean I have when I talked to all the time, work stuff, friendship, advice can tap into friendship. This is my new shot question. What constitutes an ex Exactly? How much time are you with them for it to be considered legitimate enough to keep in touch? With an X how much time years? But I want to say like a month, a little bit of a it wasn't a mic drop, it was a good job. Brother. Maybe you're still in the hot seat.

Get that mike back. So his question is very valid, like what constitutes an X? How much time did you have to date? And then how much time apart I need to I mean, I think like a true X, if you're saying that's my ex girlfriend or boyfriend, I think that definitely has to be one year, you know, I think six months. You could do that also, but then it's like six months, isn't you know it's your X but not an x X. I think four if it includes a holiday season, but maybe eight if you're

not hitting any real holidays. I always counted if if we just brushed our hands against each other, that was I have a very hard time, Okay, I canna answer your question, you guys. I have a hard time if someone comes into my life and they're important, whatever that means, they're important in some way letting that go. I almost cannot do it. Well. See, I think you're a very loyal person. Amy's a very loyal person. Friendship and all

of that. So I I understand what you're saying. You're you're you know, you don't just like have a bunch of friends that you're not loyalty. So when you have an X, I understand you wanting to keep them in your life because they're still important to you, just because you've moved on, whether it be being attracted to them or whatever, emotionally or physically. I can see why you

still want them. I can't do it. It's like letting that person go is just have you have has your current or past boyfriends ever brought that up and say, I think it's a little weird amy that you're talking to that guy that you dated for six months. Have any of the ex still happens? Weird that you're contacting them while you're dating somebody because I still have feelings about the girlfriend or something like they're maybe they're married and they're like there their spouses, Like why is this

ex still contact? Did you ever get an email that was like, hey, stop talking to my boyfriend. Never just said don't come to this pediatrician anymore? This is really do you always tell your current boyfriend how much? Like truly the questions truly how much you do talk to your axes or do you keep that from him? I don't keep anything from like if I'm dating someone, I don't keep anything. I might not like volunteer so much because I can be a little bit of like too much,

too fast, you know what I mean. So I try to like chill a little nice to me. Oh my god, I have ten axes, but they're not an issue. So you will come you will come home, and you're like I talked to Ricky, Danny and Bobby today and they all said that I was writing they don't do that. Maybe can I ask you this question? This is serious question, Um, do you believe that in your life you have enough

space for all of these people to have them? You really do have to have a love of your life and then ten even just call it five, but ten ten, it's probably it's like three. Let's three. But because I don't believe that I have, I believe in my life I only have a certain amount of space. I actually respect that, but totally disagree with it, because that's like saying Dmitri only has love for three kids. He has four, and he loves them all the same. Your heart just

like grows. He just loves each one a little less. That's how you make me. No, that's not the issue. I have the space and the love knowing you. I see that you have space for more people. You have a capacity to handle more people in your life and be engaged in those relationships than I do. When I meet somebody or have somebody that makes an impact or they're important and I lose them, that whole is so brutal. Why, I don't know, is it? Do you feel like you failed? Yes,

you didn't. Though sometimes sometimes things are just single s like they're serving for a period of time and then you move on to another period. I mean, I hear people say that I cannot handle that. M you want a pet Buddy. He has a dog named Buddy in the studio. I know I can like handle it and like like I don't get better, but yeah, it's it's

like guts me. I actually admire that because I feel like, because I feel like this is there's things that happened for a reason, and even if like for example, so let's say I'm in love with somebody and then it changes, it doesn't work out how I originally wanted it. I'll do everything I can because I still think that person came to me for a reason. So even if it's like, okay, I have to like I hate this word, but like

pivot the relationship to being just friends. I will do that because the person is more important to me than what I wanted from it. Do you also believe in just letting go? No, like just also just love, Like sometimes it needs to be a mindset. No, I didn't say past now I was gonna say I think one one thing, Amy, Like, do you ever feel like you're investing too much in yourself too quickly, too early in

in any relationship. I mean, like, I know you love to have all these people in your life, whether it's whether it's physical or there's attraction or not an attraction,

but like you're so far invested into Brooks's point. I think it's a good quality that you have, but I think it's sometimes you get put into this spot or you're putting yourself into the spot where you get hurt, you know, And I think that you invest so much into that person or relationship that whether it happens after six months, a year, or like a week and a half, in time, you're walking away from that, are pivoting and

you're like completely shattered. And but I don't think she has to change that because I'd rather have the hurt. That's that's happen. Eventually, Eventually she will give because look, if she dials that back how much she gives to people, then she may miss the person that's the correct person to receive that. She'll say, I gotta not give so much, and it's some guy that really needs that much or wants that much will be like, oh, well, she you know,

and then it's not going to connect there. I guess what I'm saying also is like treading lightly into a relationship, you know, and not just jumping full bore into it. It's not her personality type, Yes it's not. I'm still treading around with all of you guys, except maybe Dmitri where he and I, you know, I mean we're pretty close. But he seemed very direct when you asked to take a shower with me. When was that, dude, I don't remember, but it was down at the dog or is that

what you maybe dreamt of wanted to happen? My speedo not to just talk about I know, I want to talk about Rick and av and shower, but I think about Gavin a lot because I think that Gavin, because she has his music, he has that outlet and that connection with that. So the sometimes I think that people really crave that, and I feel jealous of Gavin because he has that that passion in that connection and that puss him up, whereas like sometimes I'm looking for that

with someone else. Let's go to karaoke night. We need to carry over. I love it, Hotel California. Yeah, let's go karaoke with a rock star. That's why don't we just play hockey while we sports cars and shoot guns. So new mission, guys. We're also going to do a speed dating in Vegas for Amy. The likelihood of that is so much less than the likelihood of Gavin doing it. So I'm basically saying he that will never happen. A chance can happen in here. I don't think we should

be kids. You'll cry after everybody, after each one. I looktracted to people all the time, and it's like, it's so rare. It's so rare when I have that connection, and I think that's why I like hold onto it. We'll just telling me listen, good news, bad news. She's not picking you, but you are now considered an X and she will keep in touch forever past I'd like to hear what our listeners think on this to hurry, yeah, send this email. Because I'm on the other side, I'm like, Okay,

that was a chapter of my life. It served me. It got me to where I am now moving on, you know, but you still have I love that you're like that because I am literally the opposite. It's like, there's a reason for this. I gotta fix this. I gotta fix this. What can I do? What can I do? I gotta fix this. Do you think in two months I can fix this? Maybe in six months, in a year, do you think maybe in five years? Like? Oh, does anybody ever get the feeling that if this podcast ever ends,

Brooks will never talk to any of us. They'll just cut us out of his life. No, brother, come on, man, I talked to my I talked to my old teammates. Brooks and I FaceTime like every Thursday. I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world. I knew he was going to come in with something over there, and I was gonna say, just just Ryan. I don't

think it'd be the worst thing in the world. All Ryan um, well, a little free flow send us, send us what you think on this topic, men at iHeart radio dot com or on Instagram How Men Think Podcast. Would you love to hear what you think? And if anybody has any advice for Amy, how can we help Amy therapists new number because clearly I need some help. Well, you have five unqualified therapists in here trying their heart and an extra microphone. That's it for this episode, guys.

Thanks job, great job, gentlemen at a blast today, A lot of smiles, a lot of laughs. Thank you guys for listening at home, in your vehicle, wherever you're at. Till next time. Here comes the tagline, Brooks deliver no never you go, buddy, Take care of one another, love one another, and we'll see you right back here next week for another episode of How Men Think. Ryan Right hey, guys, it's Brooks and one last thing before we let you go.

If you like today's episode, we would love to get a five star review from you on iTunes and if you could possibly share it with a friend, that would be amazing as well. We always look forward to your questions, comments or insights, so you can send us an email at men at i heeart Radio dot com, and also follow along with us on Instagram at how Men Think Podcast