Should We Split This?

what we're doing. So we're talking about we're talking about Valentine. Way to steal the punchline, dude, So I will steal. I got So that is? That is Amy wanted to play some sick joke, could do a divorce conversation prior to Valentine's Day, but it turns out there's an actual real connection at this time of year for that. Um. So, Amy, do you want to introduce our steamed guests. We're very lucky to have her here we are today, So and Laura,

Laura Wasser is here. And so when I introduced Laura to you, guys, I said, she is literally and I stand by this. Probably the most well known and prolific is that the right word divorce attorney in the country, dubious. So I know when I wrote notes, I said, your name is synonymous with divorce. How does that feel? Um? Yeah, it's uh, it feels great. You know when you think of a divorce and misery, you think Laura Wasser. People are gonna say, I'm getting a Wasser getting a Walker.

Uh No, I My My whole jam is just trying to educate people about not only divorce, but about marriage and relationships and how with better communication and compassion, we can handle ourselves better in all relationships, but certainly if we're getting divorce, and particularly if we're getting divorced from someone with whom we have kids and are going to have to co parent. Okay, So I'll give you guys

a little background for our listeners on Laura. So she's an attorney, she's an author, entrepreneur, and a family law expert. She's represented a huge list of celebrities Kim Kardashi and Bron Reynolds and affairs Jimmy Levine, Maria Shriver down the row. Um, But She maintains that divorce is the great equalizer in

that it terrifies everybody, everybody. So she's made it her mission to change us by creating It's Over Easy, which gives divorcing couples an accessible and affordable resource to dissolve their marriage in all fifty states. You're an author of New York best Time seller like high five to that. That's amazing. I wish I could write that under my name. I just want to write Brooks like New York Best

Brooks like mediocre podcast. You're a mediocre podcast manager. Want to make a I want to make a quick note. It's Jimmy Iovine, but I have I have a friend at school, his buddy of mine, and his kids are in his Jimmy Levine, so I don't want him to listen, and people think he's getting um So anyway, one of the most qualified people in this state. And Amy, why does this, why does this conversation for you have never been married? Why does this excite you so much? Well,

it doesn't excite me, like Christmas. But here's what. You have to take your coat off because you said you're just getting sweaty. Because I think relationships fascinate me, and I think that look, fifty of marriages do not work. So I think if we start talking about divorce, we may make it easier for people that are going through it, and we also could prevent it. I think Laura has

a lot of great input. We just had an amazing conversation for the last half an hour getting ready for the show about it's not about the divorce, it's about the relationship. I'll let Laura speak on that, but I would love to ask you do you think marriage works.

I think marriage works for some people. I think if you are a couple that has found your soul mate or found even if it's not your soul mate, but it's your groove, your best friend, somebody who want to be with God bless I mean, I'm not I don't want people to get divorced. But I also think, realistically speaking, in there are people who have been married for a certain period of time and for whatever reason, have grown apart.

Things have separated them in some way, and I think it's healthier for individuals and kids to see too happy parents that may not be living under the same roof than miserable people. But being able to say but we've been married for fifty years. So I think if it's not working and we can't figure out a way to make it work, I want it to be easier for people,

at least financially and um legally to split up. Then I think they can really focus on the heart and the mind and emotionally doing things in a kind of a mindful, cost effective way. I've given that advice to one of my best friends in the world. He has four kids, um, eight, seven, six, and five. This is when I gave him this advice. But he isn't me is it given us the phone number? Um, But him

and his wife were not happy. They were individually and as a partnership just not happy and it just didn't seem And I told him, I was like, buddy, give yourself a chance at happiness. Like, and also, these kids are smart. Kids will figure out that that they know that there's an energetic disconnect between mom and dad. Like

they're already eight years old. They're figuring this stuff out already. UM. So I've given him that advice, like, I think it's best for you as my friend, for you and for her to separate and move into a different chapter of happiness. Totally and again helping people figure out a how to get to that next chapter and then how to thrive in that next chapter. I'm sure we've all known somebody who's been through a divorce and they're just still so

angry ten years later. Women particularly, just they have that angry face. There's no botox that can fix it. They're just still so pissed about their ex. I also want people to be able to move into their next chapter. You know some of you know some of those who but you know, to move into that next chapter in a healthy way. Because I also know a huge number of very happily divorced people, like they seem to be the happiest group of all the people. Yeah, I mean

you asked me if I've been married. I was married for like ten seconds in Okay, when I was a baby. We didn't have kids, but I have two boys with two different dads, neither to whom I was married. But you know, talk about happy divorced or happy separated. We all had Thanksgiving together a couple of months ago. Everybody was there, my kids, their dad's, my current boyfriend, his ex wife was like, how the hell did I end

up here? But it was left a party. This is Thanksgiving, this is our thanks It sounds like you just showed up to the same restaurant by accident that my mom and actually I lost my mom over the summer, which and she always had Thanksgiving at her house in Malbou and she always had everyone there, even though she's married to my stepdad for like fifteen years. My dad was there with his wife. Like we were always very inclusive

in our family. So that's how I learned. And so when we would have Thanksgiving, it my mom's all of the baby daddies and everyone would come. So this year I had to do it at my house, and so we had it at my house and we had all of the people there, and look, you know, sometimes is it trying to have these relationships and smile and maybe fake it till you make it? Yes, however one it was.

It was a sad, kind of melancholy Thanksgiving for me and these family members that the fathers of my kids were there for me and we're like, we love you. This is our family. We all miss Bunny. But to all of our kids, my boyfriends included, we're so happy that their parents were one place. I don't know how many of you are children of divorce, but having that Thanksgiving were like halfway through. You gotta get everything bundled up and go to other person's house so that you

can have dessert with that family. That's a pain and that does not make you thankful. So everybody was there. We did it for the kids. I say to people all the time, you gotta love your kids more than you hate your ex. What a great behind. I have that tattoo on my own. That's so weird. I have that tattoo from you because I'm forty five almost I guess I am forty six? Are you actually pretty sick? Like the same? We thought we were the same age. She was like, we're the same age, right, and I

was like, no, we're not. I'm older. You're just trying to dial it back. One like it back, go back to I'm she whispers, It's like you're there. I have a lot of friends who are quote what I call sticking it out like it's not great. They are not miserable. There's no drama, like, there's not constant fighting. It's just sort of dead in the water. What is your advice to those people who have been married ten twelve fifteen years should be two years? Do Should people stick it out?

How do you know when divorce is probably the better option or it's time to like pull the trigger and and move on. I don't know. I mean I literally, unless you are being you know, abused, or you're with somebody who has a serious drug and alcohol problem and they can't no matter how much rehab, they can't get better. I don't know. I mean, one thing is, and I don't think we all readily admit this marriage is sticking

it out. I mean that's part of it. And if it's not his ship, it's gonna be somebody else's ship. So it's not always just like after the butterflies go away and you know the balloom is off the roads, you're like, I'm out that is That is a very Hollywood way of thinking. I want the newer, better deal. And I've seen that a lot of times men and women who come in and I'm like, wait, that looks just like your X, but like fifteen years younger. That's weird. Um.

So I think that's part of it. Sticking it out has to do. Maybe you don't stick it out, maybe you figure out how to grow and evolve with this person. Rather than just cutting and running. I think that's it right there. I think you need to continually evolve. You're going to change. I'm going to change in the course of my life. My wife is going to change in the course of her life. But also I think people over time can develop some sort of indifference when there

once there was an attraction. They can just develop an indifference, and it's not staying connected enough to continue to learn and grow and accept your changes except their changes, and also challenge each other. There's so many resources out there, seminars, um, all kinds of things, books, all kinds of things. There's areas in your relationship you can undoubtedly grow, and maybe there's just an indifference in people where they don't want to put in the energy to do it, or they

don't think they can. I don't think a lot of people in their marriage really really truthfully communicate all the needs and desires and savings and yearnings they have for themselves, for their partner, all of it. I think there's they lack a little bit of courage there to share those things that could really actually keep people together and like light their marriage on floor and it's work. I mean, it's like we all go to the gym because we

want to stay healthy, we want to stay tone. You want to say, you may have to do that, whether it's therapy, but mentioned you want sneakers over, your sneakers haven't arrived. I love what Brooks is talking about because I think a lot of couples in Laura, you probably know this because people have to tell you all their tales, is that they really let their connection go when they

let their intimacy go. Because we know tons of couples that haven't had sex in a year, and it's like, if you have that, one of the things is like you got to get that back because that is connection, and then the marriage can improve, as opposed to saying like it's dead. Let's just that's true. But but there's

also people. There's something also to be said about growing apart, and there's also something to be said about I think sometimes people when they get into a marriage, um, they probably you know, sacrifice certain things and maybe change who they are a little bit. And then as they get older they say, you know what, I wasn't that person,

but I was being that person. So I think it's not always about reading books and like everything can be saved well again, but you could go to your partner and say, listen, these are some of the things I really was super passionate about when we got married and I let them go by the wayside for whatever reason, we had to move to a different state, we had kids. Whatever is he or she has to be willing to go I I hear you. I like that. Let's work

on those things too. I mean you have to have somebody on the other end going, yeah, I'm willing to explore those things with you. You can't do it alone. It takes two to tango. So if you are willing to put in it, it's the hardest job you'll do. They say being a parent, Being a parent and being married. That's like you know, and you do. You really have to focus on it. And if you're doing it, but the other a person isn't getting married was to improve

your life? What the purpose was? I mean, I'm not married, so I thought the whole purpose of getting married was the partnership of essentially improving each other's lives. So so if you're telling me that the two hardest things you're ever gonna do are having kids and maintaining a marriage, doesn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of what the marriage is supposed to be, which is to improve each other's lives. What about what about doesn't come easy?

What about your career? Your career? Your career is like I got to maintain I there's things it's it's not just my career is an absolute joy. Yeah, yeah, but there's there's grindwork in there, there's things that you probably don't like. I'm happy to do all of it. And in a marriage it's the same thing. Man have the same Barely ever do I think to myself, oh, I have to with my career. It almost never happens. So

it's the same. So people feel that way about in marriage, I have to, Oh I have to change diaper, But then you have a clean baby and you're so psyched. I mean, that's just really what it is. It's the parenthood is a better analogy to be like, it's the hardest thing you'll do, but it's also the most rewarding. And we could say the same thing about having a marriage. To tell me about the joy of the diaper, there's

no joy of the diaper. There's no joy of the diaper till the diaper is gone and the new diaper is man, I was what a joy kick this diaper and see what kin out of it? Kevin, I don't think it's question that you brought up a while back, was like, what point do you then decide let's get

divorced after you've gone through the therapy? Maybe it's five therapists or whatever that maybe you know, like right, and again, people come to see me all the time, and I will never be the one to tell them that it's time. But when they come to me and say it's time, then what I try to make sure that they are doing is educating, getting their education of what this is going to look like, what other people have gone through,

getting a support system for yourself. So many people come to me and they have no idea even what the law is in this state. So right, sofa bed to put in the apartment they're heading into, Jennifer convertibles. What Laura thinks of nesting? Do you wait, what is that? So nesting is? I mean it's people have been doing it for a long time, but it's really become kind of a trend in family law. It's when the kids stay in the family residence and the parents kind of

shift out for customs. Okay, So I think it's great if it works for the family, and I think it's great for a short time. I don't think it usually works forever. Although I read a story about a Canadian couple actually that has been doing it for like seven or eight years. They actually built like two apartments onto either side of the house and they just rotate out

and go into these apartments. Yeah, Canada people, But but I think it's really good, particularly during the process and maybe for like the first you know, six to twelve months after, because it's good for the kids and they don't have to keep moving and packing and going. Um. And I think if the people can get along and have somewhere else to go either they rent one apartment

that they both go to on their off time. But you have to be super super considerate there too, because like if you show off, show up on your off day and there's like used condoms, that's not like you can't. There has to be some kind of right, not good or you yes, because they're still available to you. M here's a questions. That is what my entire gess, that's my point of the podcast is do not use condoms. Laura wasser Um here's a question for serious question. Here's

a question for you in the praternity route, I really hustle. Um, So you make your living in the space of of dealing with divorce. Has that in any way crept into your life bled over into your personal life where you feel cynical or negative or anything about the connotation of marriage or are you able to compartmentalize compart mental compartmentalized,

but departmental compartmentalized. This is what I do for a living, and I still have my beliefs and I believe in marriage here, or this is what I do for a living and I really don't believe in the sacrament of marriage. I am a great compartmentalizer. I believe in marriage for some people. It's not for me, Like, there's no reason for me to get married. I'm in a very committed,

wonderful relationship right now. I'm not super down with the State of California being able to say what happens to my money or who I would owe money to if we ever split up. But you could do could I could do a prenup. I just you know, I don't need it for me and for my significant other. That's not something that we need, but I love a good wedding.

I believe in marriage. I think it's important for people. Um, I don't believe you have to get married to have kids, obviously, like people say, oh, well, I wouldn't ever want to have kids if I wasn't. That's not for me. But again, one thing you get good at in my job is not judging. I don't judge other people because everybody has their ship, everybody has stuff. You never quite know what's in somebody's past or what's going on behind closed doors.

So you try to listen and you try to problem solve question because you've seen so many different versions of failed relationships. The second year in a relationship with someone, and you see any similar stories happening in your relationship, do you assume it's headed towards the direction of the stories you've already seen and pandard No, No, I really don't. I mean, like, I'm fifty one years old, I've been in relationships for a long time. As you said, I've

seen a lot of relationships. I think everything that comes my way personally and professionally is new. I also think there's only a certain amount of things that can go wrong. I mean I've now heard I thought pretty much everything. And you can see red flags in any relationship or any marriage. But like I said, if I'm watching somebody else's play out, I never know exactly what's going on. They don't say, well, like I won't be able to pick you up at at yoga because such and such,

and you're thinking Mark versus Tina. No, I'm about three. It's over now, you know what I haven't. I have enough of my own relationship history that I could just go, Josh, good for you, Laura. I like you. We're gonna get, We're gonna have hold on, We'll get. We gotta take a quick break and then we're gonna dive more into Laura's story after. This is kind of a fun topic here. Okay, we're back from break and the timeliest podcast we've ever done.

A happy vale Haymy just wants to ruin everybody's Valentize Day here with the divorce podcast prior to Valentized Day. But Amy, you had a real exciting question. You wanted to listen to Laura's podcast. So Laura has a podcast right now she'll tell us about and then she's coming to my heart. Yeah, welcome and it'll be very similar

to her podcast now, but just broader and better. So I learned this on your show that set and I might be getting the stat slightly off, but it's all whatever semantics of divorces are filed by women, and I thought that it was a very interesting conversation that you

can tell us about. But you sort of tied it to women are the ones who have this emotional can action and when they finally just cannot take it anymore, they will file, whereas men are have a little bit of an easier time sort of just rolling with it, and they maybe they golf or they go out with their buddies and they aren't so sort of distraught over the emotional breakdown of the relationship. Yeah, I mean one of the things that I do and we talk about

on Divorce Sucks, which is the current podcast. It will become All's Fair, same feed, um, But on my heart, All's Fair was just a little broader and had more to do with all different kinds of relationships. But we talk about a lot the difference between men and women, and people always assume that I represent more women. I actually represent more men. You just I guess hear about

more of the women. But so many men will come to me and they'll have their divorce papers that their wife filed and serve them with and they'll be like, I thought everything was fine, I mean what happened? Like I mean, yeah, it wasn't great. When was the last time you had sex with her? Yes? With her? You know, and or like they just you know. I think men and against this also is goes in line with men

that are working men. Okay, so I don't always represent men or women, but I almost always represent the breadwinner, the working person. The breadwinner is often the one that's like, I don't know, it's not perfect, but it's good and I love him or her and it's working. It's sometimes the person that may not have as much going on during the day that's going I'm not happy, and I want to think about why I'm not happy and how I could be happy and what would happen. And again,

no judgment. It happens that a lot of times women are the ones to file because they are kind of the organizer in the relationship and so there now we're going to get divorced. I have had women not only file but help their husband find their attorney and then help their husband find and furnish their entire new home or apartment, because that's that's what they do. Out. I want to move on, and once I get you set up,

I can do that. Yes, Amy, I have a question for you, because when you asked this question, it made me think of a question. You said that, and maybe it's statistically is true women are the ones that file for divorces are filed by women. I thought about how so I'm thinking about how you exit a relationship. Is it also the same as how you enter a relationship?

So that maybe maybe and I'm not trying to generalize or paint women with a broad stroke here, but do women enter a relationship for a deeper emotional connection than men? Men maybe enter for a different purpose. And then that's also why when that falls out, the women chooses to exit.

That lands very well on me. I would say that's a thousand percent accurate that women are kind of the drivers of both the inn and the out because of because the emotion plays such an important part for women in my opinion, and and the definition defining it saying like okay, so wait, are we are we monogamous? Are we this? And we're this? And have to define it in a way that makes more sense. And I think the connection is so for women, and people can email us and call us and tell us, but for women

the connection is emotional. The emotion, the sex, all of it creates the relationship and the connection. So as it starts to dissipate, they are seeing the relationship fall apart. Whereas men, I do think, have an easier time as the relationship is very secondary to them. I have my golf, I have my job, I have my kids, I have my life. And yeah, you're you're okay, Yeah, why do you think that is? Why is that different? Sound like? Is that really I've never been out with a golfer before.

They's the only date water polo players, but I've switched it to golf because you're a cap of Okay, let me get your guys. This question or not a question, but a comment about that. I feel like girls and women in general, when all of their friends are getting married, they will then rush into there's like a social pressure jump into relationship just to get married or we've definitely I disagree with that. Oh, I think it's a thousand percent true. I think it's like a I disagree with it.

I don't know anybody in my head that's going, oh my god. And maybe I just don't know, but like, oh my god, everybody's getting married. I need to find somebody and just Dmitri, what do you think. I think they're currently dating somebody and they're like, let's get married. I think I don't get that. Oh my god, Brooks. I have many friends that panic married. They were like late twenties early because every one of their friends we

were Rick and I have all the same friends. They all did it, and they married like a giant toolbag because they were so desperate to get married. Because in our society, you feel like a giant failure if you aren't married and don't have kids. That wad say, that's a very good point. It totally works on the A. We see a trend among friends and then you see the whole domino toppling of these of these groups of friends. And I've seen that here in l A. I've talked

to people in New York. One of the reasons when we created It's over Easy, which is this online website where you can get divorced for dollars much less than what I would charge you at my office. But the main point of it was to also have a community. So you join that community. There's a whole bunch of contents. You can read about it, reach out to other people, listen to podcasts about it, have you know, group chat so that you don't have to then convince your friends

that you're having dinner with tomorrow night. To get divorced. You can talk to somebody across the country that's getting divorce, you know. And and also a ton of resources so that you can either find mental health, find childcare, find insurance if it's not available through your employer, find dating apps, and also find you know, you could see your engagement rank online. It's perfect. You're getting divorced. Oh hey, what's going on? Do you like? What do you think of

a mediator? I love mediators. I would say that at our firm, probably of our divorces are mediated because it's just prohibitively expensive, both financially and emotionally to have a trial and to go to court, and our courts are so clogged. So find a mediator, which is a neutral party that has some experience. We use a lot of

retired judges. I now do some mediation too, rarely where I'm the mediator and I represent and I work with both parties to do it because I've been doing this long enough and on top don't have to So you could and you could both have consulting attorneys. But it still makes it easier than you don't have to run to court and get like a slamming of the gavel verdict. You can have somebody say, you know what, this is what will probably happen. How do you feel about this?

And it's really helpful because the other thing is, especially in a divorce, it's like no other kind of lawsuit. If you're in a landlord tenant lawsuit or fender bender, you want to get the other person. You want to win, and you want to smash them whatever. We can't really do that in a divorce. You might feel like you want to. But one, this is your money. There's a pot of your money. It belongs to both of you.

The more you spend and go out of the pot to the lawyers and the forensic accounts and the exports, the less you have for you and your kids. But two, and most importantly, after the fender bender, you're never gonna see that person again. After the divorce, you're gonna see the person at the parent teacher conference, You're gonna see the person at the birthday party. You got to figure out a way get along with them Thanksgiving if you're

in my family. Yeah, and getting wassard can be expensive, So it's probably Do people not get divorced because of money where they stay together because they are like cheaper to keeper. Having ever heard that, wait to have this great joke, what what's what is the Barbie Barbie the Barbie dream house. Barbie Dreamhouse comes with all the accessories, the dream house and the clothing and the wardrobe and the RV. And Ken just comes by himself because she

took everything, or some joke about that. He certainly does. You can doesn't have anything, Gavin, do you feel sort of like I do about marriage because we've seen divorce and we don't want that, So it's like, why I'm not I'm not afraid of marriage at all. I'm just

afraid of divorce. I think that. And it wouldn't it wouldn't be so terrifying if divorce wasn't incentivized the reality is that divorce has become completely incentivized in Western civilization period, and and it's just it's financially bizarre that you would reward a failing system. And you think that we reward it because she gets half your money doesn't have to be she in his case, Well, you know, it's bizarre to me that we we would reward failure. In almost

no other structure do we reward failure. So why would you reward failure to Okay, I take issue with two things. One I don't necessarily think it's a failure, but let's leave that alone. Why who's being rewarded? I'm saying, if there's a higher earner and a low earner and the relationship doesn't work, Okay, So here's how maybe change your way of thinking a little bit. And I'm not saying

I agree with the law. But the law is when you get married, the high earner is earning money from community efforts, which means it's already half her money in this hypothetical situation. So we're not rewarding her. She already owns half of it. I'm not saying taking her half and leaving the party. Right. Okay, here's a question. So I don't know all about the law here, you do, right, I'm just looking at it from this distant, distant window right of people that I know who have had divorces

and it's been very costly. Okay, people who maybe have had been married for five years, they had a kid, and and the sort of the the the X turns into an absolute terror and greedy and absolutely torments the the X waiving the power, having the power of waiving the kids in front of them, and really weaponizing things that shouldn't be weaponized. Right, So have you seen that? And That's what I'm talking about. So we're rewarding people for walking away from the system that was supposed to

be helping each other. And you may think I'm wrong saying that, but I've seen I've seen that with people that I knew, friends of mine, who I felt like they were just getting raped over the coals, you know, I felt like they got maybe someone took advantage of their financial situation. They were, you know, they were lonely, essentially working their ass off and providing, you know, essentially living a good life and on someone that wanted to

do that with them and got used for that essentially. Yes, and again I will say to people that kind of hypothetical that you explain, I'll say you created this monster. You took her in, you started providing her with this lifestyle. In the situation you described, he'd only be paying spousal support for about two and a half years, half the length of the marriage. I know it's not nothing, and he's likely not paying much more than what he was

paying for her to have that lifestyle. Anyway, It's just that, Yeah, it hurts when you're writing a check and it's going away. It's different if you're writing a check and it's all happening under your same roof. If you're all in Cabo, you don't quite mind so much. Then if she's in Cabo with your kids and you're paying for it, I see more. Do you see more and more women who are having to pay spousal support, Yes, spousal and child.

And again they come in and they're like, what do you mean this guy's been sitting on the couch for fifteen years. I want this albatross off from around my neck. I'm the woman. I shouldn't you know? And I said, well, the laws underblind, honey, you And then that's how I feel it should be. Totally genderblind. It is, and it is much more in California now with regard to custody too of kids. I mean people come in and say, well, I'm the mom, I should have the kids, and I'm like, yeah,

not so much. The kids have a right to have access I think equally, if possible, based on time sharing careers in location with both of their parents. I love your approach. Just listening to you to I love your approach to a very sensitive and tough topic. I have two really quick topics before we go. One is, and I think we kind of addressed it. Is conscious uncoupling much better than unconscious coupling, which sometimes happens like right after the separation. Okay, dive into that. Dive into the

term of consciously. Don't think Chris Martin made it famous, but I've interviewed the woman who wrote the book about conscious like and yeah, and I think it's actually quite um if you really dig into it and read the book. It's basically what Laura was talking about, how everyone's at Thanksgiving the goal is to make it. I don't know you can explain that. I'm sure you have couples that

attempt it, but it's um. Keeping the relationship good for you and that person and children if they're involved, because it shouldn't have to be so ugly. But basically it's the marriage didn't fail, it worked, and now you're going to move on. You're changing how your family functions. You're so a family, but you're changing the way you approach your familial relationship. It's what you said before, do you hate your X more than you love your kids? I would hope not, So there's no reason to not try

and make that situation. I think conscious uncoupling is what I try to do now in all relationships, not just marriage, because it's like, why should it be so ugly when maybe it was beautiful? And then like, for a variety of reasons, some beyond my control, it doesn't work out. Everybody it's like this is but I really, I mean if you, if I say to people all the time you're going through this, think about something that you really

used to love about this person. He was in the delivery room with you, holding your hand while you were pushing out those babies. And there has to be something that got you into this relationship, made you fall in love. Tap into that. Because the other thing is if you're so consciously hating on your ex and you have kids, that same energy you were talking about before books that's in the house carries through and your kids go to wait, I'm half that guy or gal and he or she

so hates that guy or gal. How do they feel about me? Parents should not bring the children into the argument or even have the argument in front of the kids. They feel it, they hear it there. What do you say? Kids? Turn around? We go outside. We have someone that works with us. She's twenty four years old, and her parents drag her into all their arguments. Lam. I can't imagine what it's like. My parents have been married. Now we celebrate their forty five wedding anniversary this past summer. My

wife's parents are divorced. I can't imagine what it would be like as a child to know your parents being divorced party divorce. When I was young, I was like four when they split up. Um, and I was the last of five kids. But I'll say this, times have changed in the sense that when I was little, I used to think and maybe I've just mat sure. When I was little, because of that, my parents did not

get along for so many years. It was brutal. Um. So when I was little, I used to think, that's the worst thing that can happen to to a marriage is or to to a couple is the divorce. And now that I'm older and I see how it affects kids and all this type of stuff, and I lived through it, I think the worst thing that can happen is to have a loveless marriage and and fight and and stay together. But so I don't think divorce is

the worst thing anymore. But I think to be fighting like that the way I grew up, it was very difficult. Can we quickly touch on the gray divorce? Gavorce is also speaking of we're talking about anybody over saying, anyone over fifty that gets divorce is the great divorce, and it's more and more common, right, and those are now

the people that I graduated place school with. But the great divorce again, it's either people who have empty nesters, their kids have grown up and left, or I think one of the statistics is second marriages haven't even higher divorce, right than like, if you've already been through it once, you're like Alan tipper Goore, like they were married for like fifty years and they were pretty old, and then suddenly they get divorced and you're like why bother. Why why?

But why why do you ask that question? Because you're saying, what their happiness the remaining years of their life doesn't matter. Well, I'm stop why I'm bringing it up. I think people are living longer and so they're they're more willing to get divorced in their sixties than they used to be. I mean, I've had people come to me. Last year in two thousand nineteen, I actually had three divorces where

the parties were eighty or older. And that's when I was truly like, I was like my father and actually there is there is there advice here you go. The fight was over, the settlement was about who gets to keep the medicine cabin and there are there's some laws though. If you die when your spouse when you're married, versus dying when you're divorced, there's all kinds of tax benefits.

I'm like, you're weighted out, you know, so, I mean, but but yes, it is because people are saying, I only have this much time left and I really want to be happy. I'm not going to do this for one more year. I mean, it is true when humans only lived until like thirty, it was a lot easier to stay married for your whole life. My grandma did that.

My grandma got divorced and ended up dating a new per person, actually the first person she ever dated in high school and was amazingly, amazingly, she was so happy. He ended up passing, but she was so happy during those years of her life. I have a question. I think that's that's really cool. I do love those stories too, when when you realize that somebody from your past, but

that's pretty exciting. I have a question, though, from your observations, Laura, is there if you were to give just straight up advice, do you think there's an age that's too early to get married? Great one. It's hard to say because it depends on the people. I mean, I know there's some year old out there, um, and then there's some super immature for two year olds out there. But how are you,

Laura somehow April seventeen, She's like, they're usually rock stars. Laura, here's a because I I really listening to you talk. I really respect and admire your approach to this topic. You aren't in it just to like make money and get people on their way, like you actually care about all parties involved. You look at all scenarios and you actually care about people's happiness. So I want to commend you for all of that and how you handle yourself

personally professionally. It's amazing. Now that being said, because I gave you that dandy of a compliment, I get to ask you this question. What is the ugliest divorce you have ever seen? You don't have to name names, but what is just ugly to them? Because it was probably really nice for you. What is the one where you just have a story? This all I did not represent either of the course you know what it is. And these are these are the ones. There's there's two to

three that like really hit in my head. They all involve child custody. The child custodies are the soul crushers. And in all honesty, I would trade my house if I didn't have to go through those cases, because you do, you get very tight with people and you take on a lot of their angst and you see the true evil in people when they are fighting about their children. And again if there's allegations of abuse or somebody wants

to move across the country. So you can't just do like two days, two days, three days of shared custody because they're living a few blocks apart. And it's those kind of things where you just it is just it it takes so much out of you. And those are the ugliest there by far. I mean, there's funny things where you know, somebody throws a stiletto healing it actually gets stuck in the door. Or this person wanted to trade an STD test for a get, which is a

Jewish divorce. Like I'm like, that's a weird you know combo but oka or poisoning of you know, cats so that there's like diarrhea all over the white condom in him when they gave a cat. That stuff is funny, and that's the stuff that I'm like, made that at fifty dollars reading that letter. Okay, fine, the kid ones are the ones that just are so so sad. And that's why I do it the way you said Brooks, try to approach it in a way that I really want to change the way people look at divorce and

try to make it better. And I highly recommend Laura's podcast. I've obviously never been married or divorced, and I I'm addicted to the podcast. I think it's really good relationship the podcast is called Divorces, called divorce Sucks, but by the time this air is it's going to be called All's Fair, like All's fair in love and war. It's on my heart. Check us out. I think Amy is a bigger fan of divorce and marriage, Like, if you could just get divorced, you would do that. I think

divorce sucks. But I'm I actually I'm not. You know, you know what we called it, Gavin a good time. Yeah, so here, here's what it is. You go in dirty, but you come out clean. And it's like it's like when a product overtakes an entire category. So instead of saying search it, you say, why don't you just google it? Or you're like, can I have a Kleenix? Like Kleenix is the brand name, it's actually a tissue, you know, it could be you could be yeah, just wasper. Just

get a wasser. Honey, here's the thing. I think we need to get divorce. Maybe we can. That will change the whole image of it. That could be your leg meant, this girl I just got was actually what people just like, I've been through two wassers already. I don't think I can do it. Hey, I'm dating this girl. She you know, she's wassered but she hadn't that kid. But she's great. Oh what a dubious honor you are so thank you for having to cal where like a couple. We're not

because she went to golf instead of water polo. I love my golfer. He is so great. He's gone for eight hours day exactly. Um, that's why we're so happy. So where can people get in touch with you? Laura? So the the old the podcast now as we record this called Divorce Sucks. The new ones called All's Fair word anywhere you get your your podcast. But where case people, people besides my wife get in touch with you except your wife can't get in touch with me. On it's

over easy dot com. We have our Instagram which is at It's over easy and uh Laura Wasser Official is another Instagram. And we are also launching a post divorce It's called Next Chapter series. Four people that have been divorced and they kind of want some tips on how to move forward in their lives. So all those fun things Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day, So all of you listeners, there you go. There's a gift to you from our generous producer Ab Sugar shows how I feel about Valentine's

She's the grin of Valentin, poor boyfriend. But in real that was a real discussion Rose dinner. That's what we're looking for, Um, that was that was actually a really interesting discussion though, like because it is such commonplace. I know many people, many people and have it in my family, people that are divorced. Um, And I never I never looked at it the way you looked at it. I do look at it that I want people to live happy and fulfilled lives. I want that for every single soul.

But the way you look at the situation with such a sensitivity and a kindness and authenticity and caring for the people involved, I just I really commend you, Laura. Thank you very much. I learned a lot here today. Thank you. I want to see the still. Thank you very much for coming on. We appreciate you. Look her up, look up her podcast or new podcast, and I hope you just love the I heart team, our producers here, Tory, Danielle Amy, everybody involved with our our show East and

our engineer. Everybody is just amazing. And I hope you love the new journey. UM and I'm really happy for you, but I hope I'm never on your podcast enough. Thank you very much, Thank you guys, Thank you everybody for listen until next week. Take care of one another, love one another, and we will see you right back here for another episode of How Men Think