Inside San Quentin Continues

Man, what's handed man? You got Marshaw Bismall Lynch, Doug Hendrickson.

And Gavin Knewsome and you're listening to politics you know to be you known to be.

So.

Doug, Doug Marshawn, what was that? I mean, it's been about a week or so. What was the experience like going into San Quent, Doug. I think it was the first time you've been inside San Quentin, right.

It was eye opening, and it was it was enlightening because I truthfully, when I went there, I expected to, you know, a much much different perspective than I thought. I mean when I got there, seeing these these inmates and prisoners who literally the programs that San Quentin had and their mindset that you know, yeah, incarcerated if or if they don't get out or they get out, to have the programs in place to have these guys' life change in terms of uh, their mindset was so enlightening.

I bet.

I mean one of the things I imagine if you've never been there, and I remember the first time I went to San Juan.

What really surprised me is.

That you can walk into the yard and there are hundreds and hundreds of prisoners, and folks can walk right.

Up to you.

You can talk. I mean, we were talking to lifers. We were talking to folks that may never see the light of day, and they're all out there in the yard. People seem to be getting along. They're willing. I mean they're willing. The guards are willing to allow you to walk around. I mean, was that something you had anticipated. You thought it would be a little bit more organized.

I thought you'd see, honestly, I thought you'd see the Hispanics in one side the blacks. I thought you'd see the segregation in terms of the prisoners like you see

Marshawn, you ever met a warden like that?

Nah?

That wasn't the kind of warden you expect.

But but but the thing, the biggest thing that stuck out, uh to me about him was you know, the uh, the gentleman that we was talking to that was from Oakland and he's like, yeah, man, I noticed, like man, you know we've been doing time together, like you feemy, I remember he used to come run up in my cel and hell of shit, you know, we bumping it out and is the third and then to see like you know, them two just sitting down being able to you know, I mean reminisce on what it was like,

And what's so special about this war love what I mean, I think that distinction that you just made and I loved hearing it as you did from the wardens and we're both we're both doing time together. I mean this idea that that they share that experience and to have the warden top down, to have a lot.

Of guards, not all of them.

I mean, we're doing a lot of reforms and not everybody's on board, but a lot of of the guards are on board because they recognize that they want to create a safer environment. They want an environment where people are more respected and they don't have to your point, if they turn their back, they're not worried about what's going on behind their back every single minute of every single day.

But I think what's.

Special about this warden is he has his own lived experience with his own family and the fact that he had family members doing time and grew up in that environment and with a deeper perspective of understanding. So we're we're lucky as hell to have this guy at San quent leading the way in this transformation of one of the most iconic prisons in the world, what we call

And I'm curious for you guys.

I mean, I don't know if you've been on death row before we call the East Block at San Quentin, what was that experience like to physically walk in to death row.

Well, before I get to that, Gvin, I mean just looking at the non lifers and looking at the cells that those guys had that might get out in ten, fifteen, five, ten, fifteen, twenty years whatever. If to understand that when you put your hands to the side, you can touch the walls, when you put your hands above you can touch the ceiling, and if you're six foot two, six foot whatever it may be, and you have a cellmate, you can't turn around without going back to back to.

Get around the cell.

To be able to live in those conditions and think you might get out in five ten years without the programs that San Quentin has, you have no hope. And I can see that if these guys get out in other prisons that don't have the programs and the hope that they're giving them, how do you get out and expect to join the real world and function and be a memor society, as a as a father, as a.

Husband, as whatever it may be. Go forward? It's mind blown.

So I mean a kudos to San Quentin because these inmates that have a chance to get out, even the ones that don't, their mindset is the right way, which is pretty cool to see.

Uh. To walk to death Row was eerie.

It was.

My hair raising on my arms. It was really really weird to see that part of it. To walk through, and I can see both sides. I can see as a as a parent, if your son or daughter gets killed and they're there, you can see, Hey, you know what, I wanted to stay there or I wanted to get killed.

I don't know what I would do if this was my son or dough.

I don't know.

I can't tell you and equivocally, but to walk through there, it was eerie, and it was weird, and it was it was you know, it was tough to see, no question about it.

Yeah, Marshaun, what was it like for you? I mean you you walked in. I don't know how long you stuck a I mean, what was that like for me?

Man? That ain't you know? I mean, that ain't something that you feel me. I don't that Main's something I would say, like I glorify, So you know what I mean? You know what I mean, I think what I maybe stepped in maybe three four five steps and then you know, I got the fuck up out of there. But just the mentality of just you know, I mean, understanding that you got motherfuckers locked in that box in that cave. That's that's some you know what I mean, that's some

So I mean I imagine it was like that too when we were at the gas chamber and then we went separated that the death chamber where they do the injections.

Hell yeah, like man, that's some ship, like you know what I mean, Like I don't even want to see like even to the point where you know, we'll talk

Another Tuesday could be Monday through Friday. I mean, dozens of people right now are eligible to be executed. They've exhausted all their appeals. And I think for me, you know, I really wanted you guys to see that, particularly Doug. I think you came back with me and were the injection chair that place. Since the last time we did an execution was two thousand and six. They literally have

Damn lap well.

And the sad thing, Gavin, look, I mean, you know, you and I weren't raised the same way that Marshaun was, a lot of people were. But to see some of these guys in there and to make a wrong turn in life, you know and end up. I mean, it's not fair. It's really scary in a lot of ways. And his eye opening. I think I was talking to twenty four year old prisoner there who talked about when he was I think his mom was a prostitute, his dad didn't wasn't there seven eight nine years old, had

But this kid did no chance in life.

He had no chance and he got in and luckily he's got a chance to get out in ten fifteen years. But you know, without the programme san Quentin has, without the hope he's going to have going forward. I mean, this kid had no chance in life, and it's really sad. But most people in the world don't look at this and say, oh, well, he shouldn't have been in there. Okay, we'll put yourself in issues.

What are you gonna do?

Really?

I mean, I mean that's the hard part.

All powerful components of what we ultimately want to bring to light in this podcast.

Well, yeah, and I applaud you for doing what you've do done with san Quentin and all the prisoners across California because it's making a difference.

And to your point, you know, when they do get out, they're.

Going to be our neighbors, our community members and all that, and so what you've done is great. So I appreciate what you've done and taken us in there.

How about one of those community members is my old teammate in Twin Cities Little League in Larksburg, California, and that literally my age. You met him, Doug Marshaun. You guys all met him. Angelo Mecki, who was our third baseman, shortstop, second baseman, had everything going for him in life and just started hanging out with the wrong people. I mean, you talk about just this, how any for the grace of God go any of us. One decision hanging out

I would say it's the luckiest. I'm the luckiest person alive right now. As far as my job, I'm leading the California model here at San Quentin State Prison. We're in our media room, which produces a podcast, it has a filming studio, it has a newspaper. The opportunity that the governor has given me is pretty cool. My journey is a little different. My father was incarcerated and out of jail, so I grew up kind of having to make some tough choices.

Yeah, so that me and you we got kind of like, you know what I mean, because that's that's how my poths was. You feel me.

So I had to make a decision, man, you know, do I follow that trend or do I.

Do I change?

Well, how long was your dead in for?

So I didn't see him a lot after he got incarstraighted. He now passed, but he was a D number, which tells you was probably about thirty years ago. He did some time in Chino, and then he was in and out of jail. So he really wasn't relevant in my life. So I wanted to distance myself from him. So I went into law enforcement because everybody assumed I was going to go that path, and I started over twenty two years ago. I started over twenty two years ago when

That's hell of that's that's strange that you even you feel me, don't look at it like that, because just when you hear like the war and type shit, that's like hell no, like almost like the principal at school and shit like that. So it's and then to hear them saying like, you know, giving back to the community like for whatever, that shit just not for me. It's not translating in my head to even think about it in that way. So when you say that, because you

That's what we're trying to change, exactly what you're saying. The opposition would say this is a public safety, But it's absolutely public safety because we're making citizens here, right, people that we put back in our community and have trades degrees to get back to our community. So it is public safety and that's what some people are struggling to realize.

And I think one of the things just a good reminder everybody folks in our system end up home and you want them broken, more pissed off, or do you want them to be more resourceful, more fully and you want them to be your neighbors. You gotta think in those terms.

Who was I talking recently? I was talking to an old Mexican mafia guy and he says, Uh, this guy was running the yard and he had he had a date. He goes, hey, man, I got a date. Can I stop politicking? And that leadership in the Mexican mafia basically allowed that and said, yeah, you've always done your work

So you know what that sounded like to me because I asked this mufflucker, Hey, why you're gonna run for president? And then it was an order just like what you just demonstrated right now, it's an order or how you feel me, how they rock? And I'm like, oh shit, so when you politicking, you really dealing with some real politics. And I'm like, shit, go run for president, like for we could stop the podcast.

Of all the things that I've done as governor, the one thing I wasn't prepared for was this space. I mean, when you're campaigning out there, no one asked me what my relationship or with prison reform was. They talked about criminal justice reform more broadly. We did not didn't understand the nature of debriefing. That never came up. There was no white paper that I had.

I don't know what a.

Gang debrief was. I didn't fully appreciate the parole process and didn't understand all of these nuances. But every single week I have life or death decisions. Literally, no bullshit.

When you're looking at that, what is it in your mind? Like, Okay, if I see these type of.

It's exactly what we just heard right there. As you want, you can kind of talk away. I want to know the journey. I want to know that it's sincere, it's not bullshit. I want to know that you didn't just go into some program just to quote unquote get a check, so you just stack in those checks to come to me. I want to know that you feel remorse, that you feel for the victims, that you have a relationship to the victims, because at the end of the day, we

The people that we let go.

Otherwise, if I feel just a it's instinctual sometimes and it's just immediately rejection.

When you just look at the name, like Marshaan Lanche.

You know what, That's what every governor used to do.

When I go fill out job applications, they.

The name alone.

By the way, you see that, that's a real thing.

That's what I'm saying.

But let me let me tell you, let me tell you negotiate.

It's only been since Governor Brown had gotten the previous governors Democrats, not just Republicans, they rejected every single Parole Board recommendation.

They didn't even look at it.

And then they would look at the name, or worse, they'd look at a picture and they go they look and see if someone's got tatted up, Like no, he's gone, I'm no bullshit. And and then race was a determinative damn factor for on getting in here and getting out of here. So I don't see pictures, I don't care about the name. I quite literally look at the journey people are on, and I look, we have a risk assessment a psychologist. I look at the programming. When did

You because I know, I know, I know how you like that.

Free the game.

But I know we're gonna tell them, by the way, in a minute, we're gonna talk about the goddamn death penalty.

How about that on your concha? How about that on your conte?

Like, just let the motherfucker sit down and do their time. It's like, uh, what is that you was talking about in the movies and ship like? But the movies, I'll be saying they were fucking people will like with the uh, the the gas chambers and all those kind of ships, Like, who go and think about creating some ship like that? The fuck people, that's some sick ship.

Well, I think it's pretty sick that we tell people it's wrong to kill, and so in the name are in somehow in the spirit of saying it's wrong to kill, we kill people premeditated man, and we kill broken people.

Man.

One thing everybody has in common. They come in here, they're broken, they're broken some way, shape or form. And then the idea that we're killing broken people as a society systemically, and that was something by the way, broken people killing broken pit And so the question is, yeah,

Man, I couldn't live.

So if you don't call the governor has the ability at those last minutes, reprieve and comye. I mean it's it's that's their life or death to say so. I did a moratorium. When I got here, I said, I can't do it. I just I'm not that guy. I can't do it. I talked to Swartz and Agria was the last guy that to condempted him in two thousand and six, and he didn't. He said this very publicly,

Yeah, yeah, Well who was it?

It was Ray Allen and Ray was a legendary guy for a lot of different reasons. And I asked, I said, I asked Arnold because I had just done the moratorium. And I said, you know, I said, how was?

How was? Just as a human level? And again I only share this.

Because he's repeated publicly, and he said he said to me, no, you know, he said, well, I'll give you the asked that.

He said, you know, you know.

You know, you know Givin's you know, I slept like a baby, he said, he slept like a baby. I'm like whoa. And honestly, that like that hit me in intense way. He slept like a bit you know what, and some way like I respect that he did and he was serious about it. I couldn't. I'm not that guy. I'm not wired like that. I couldn't do that. And so that that was a heavy weight that also led

How much does it cost to house take care?

What's the latest number? We were at one hundred and six thousand two years ago.

What are we up to this year?

I think it's about one.

Yeah, per poseous, you got the motherfucking fifth largest economy in.

But you know what world you want to put me in the mix?

You are you're gonna be our budget director. God, and you want to know why. You want to know why.

But you you were talking out in the yard, Marshaan. Now you want to have a real conversation. You want to know what. You want to know why. You want to know what the contracts are to make phone calls here. You want to know what the racket is there. You want to know what the procurement racket is in the prison industries and how people are making a fortune oft

And making a fortune.

And the lobbyists and the lobbyists that are being hired and the lives that are being destroyed so people can make money. That's goddamn right. That is a huge part of this whole thing, a huge part of it. Don't think for a second you're wrong about that. Everything you say we're in the yard was spot on. People are selling you fear and anxiety, and that's what this is about, fear and anxiety. It's fear based and it's fueled by anger.

Democrats are careful, bro, because when you get to talking like that stern and all that type of motherfucker they be, they be creeping and ship. Man, Hey, look well you just I just rolled over here with you. I like I said, I like I like living. I like baking up, brushing my teeth after long nights and getting some oasis, tearing ship down. But the truth is I like living. And you know what you are, hot boy. You was

I hope you all heard what he just said.

Man, you know he talks about it. Know you you can probably you could probably give me some insights. So when he turned his mic off and all of that, we get rid of him. Then I need to high. Don't talk about it, man. Yeah, so you let me.

Every time we talked about gang stuff, he said, don't talk to me about gang stuff.

How about the gang you're in out there in politics? Yeah, sious, like nothing says it right it.

Is look here brown zero. They started them gangs. They separated this ship and then they started conquering. We was like, which one is you? You the blue or the real one. You was over here and was like, all right, we're gonna take all this. They're gonna take all this and then now hold on, well we want this with nah. So then y'all politics spilled over into us. It was like, well, ship, we're gonna go get the motherfuckers and bring them over here and have them go to work, and this ship

You should then you're angry, man.

I know, politician, but I need to get one of them.

Now you're getting in the deeper conversations about it. And there's nothing more true about the system. That it is better to be rich and guilty than then poor and innocent. Is a damn fact. Rich and guilty, you're better off than poor and innocent. And that's a fuck ub system. And that is perpetuated and it has been for decades and decades, not everywhere.

I'm not naive.

I'm not casting as persions on people trapped in this damned system, but it is a system that has evolved over time. You had, I mean, we have vestiges of slavery here in the prison system. We had convictly seen after eighteen sixty convict leasing, where they were literally taking the incarcerated and folks in the private sector were basically getting them for ten cents an hour, and literally the prisons were making money off the backs of folks that

I'm saying, if they just serve their community, right, this is the thing about the politician, like, if they there to serve the community, and shit, I really just be seeing them just go stack up coins and then they just mobbing, like you feel me? I know, we don't, you know what I mean, we don't. We don't talk about dog. That's what we're gonna We're just gonna call him dog or folks. But you know what I mean.

Yeah, rich and guilty and poor in innocent.

So I mean it's oftentimes it's race more than culpability.

And I didn't get that was I didn't even get in the race there.

I was talking about wealth, but then we get into race and that becomes more of a factor than culpability in terms of sentencing. And it's I don't think this, we know this, This is not this is it is like that the guy we just met, he said, this is just math.

It's it's just fact. It's a fact.

Yeah, and you right now, this is why I'm this. This shit is just came right on time. Man, I'm black. Because the thing is, like I was telling you, like that was an opportunity and it didn't come from me. It came from somebody who's been in here for twenty seven years, and he gave you the same ism that I gave you when we was hollering. So you see that from twenty seven years ago when he was outside, it's the same shit probably where he looking at it

That's I hear you.

That's that's that's a that's a problem. But it just sounded like to the point when I think about it, in y'all community, you feel me, y'all, don't worry about no type of ship like that because everything else.

I mean, we don't. I mean, to be honest with you, we've been blessed and it's not right.

I'm not sure like it's a good or a bad thing. I'm just saying as far as are like problems, right, this is a huge issue going home not knowing if tonight I'm going eat And that's just like that's serious though, right, because you think about when you come home, like yeah, I just had school or whatever, like damn, moms ain't here. Fuck,

Way, it's it's such a powerful thing to say.

And most people in the world and everything about that, they think, why this guy do this?

What happened here?

They have no idea that.

Board, right, and you looking at that paperwork. The paperwork ain't gonna say that. It's not gonna say that, this is why this kid was here and did what. He's not gonna say that. And then you're looking at that paper and I'm not saying you personally, but they get that paper and they look at that name and it's I throw that motherfucker. Or if they get that paper they look at that picture and they throw that motherfucker.

Well, I mean you're right, I mean.

The file I get is everything that happens after that, right, and I guess it's just that's the lesson you know you can It's it's not what happens, it's what you do with what happens that determine your fate in future. And it's it's everything that happened. It's the folks that will survive and thrive on the outside are folks that understand that I can't make up for the past. I'm not the worst thing I ever did. Just because you know I stole something doesn't mean I'm a thief, doesn't.

Mean I am a thief.

Uh.

And those that go on a journey of discovery and they can demonstrate that, those are the folks that that's what I read, and that's the journey.

That I want to support.

And then the work beyond this conversation is the work about how do I see a different future?

How do I these things? From the beginning, And I don't want.

To even bore you with the bullshit politicking or politics of pre natal goddamn care or zero to three or early head start or childcare or high quality tutoring and mentorship and addressing learning disabilities and all the bullshit that is real. Where we got to begin at the beginning to address these cycles of violence, ignorance, and disease. But both of those things have to happen. But the thing we're trying to control for here is what we are

I said, that's amazing. Goes.

No, you know what was amazing is when I had my byline on San quent News and I said, that's amazing goes, no, no, you know it was really amazing, he says. When I called my mom and she got a copy of it, and she said the words I never heard her say in my life, true story, I'm proud of you. And he said that just it brought me it, just I'm proud of you.

Do you know what what's crazy is Like I'm saying, like I've been up here to visit my pops and shit. Right, but as I started to like think about it, memories and shit like that ship that you know, I don't want to hold in here like I thought about it, I said, noam you know what, I've never heard my my pops tell my mother I love you. And then I can't even remember if he ever even told me some shit like that, you feel me, So it would be the little wins like you feel me when you

Right?

You feel me? But you're like that be a part of the like the healing process. Yeah, that's where it started, Like ooh shit, I felt something like what the fuck just happened. Oh that didn't feel right, but it felt good. Oh what the fuck is that?

Like?

Get that shit off me, typ hold on. But I liked it though a little bit. Let me try to figure out what's going on. So then those kind of programs, right, Yeah.

I mean that that hit me in a different way because all of a sudden, I mean, that guy's on the path.

And how old was he a recovery? He's a kid, bro, he was nineteen twenty and.

He's yeah, he's a kid if he was twenty two three, I mean, the kid and he's gonna be here probably a couple of decades, or he may be here the rest of his goddamn life, may die here if he doesn't get his ship together. But he's on a different pathway, And there's power in those words. Man power in the wordst then what his mom never said to him and like and here he is sharing.

It openly to a bunch of folks.

Man, So it goes to your I mean what you just said about your pops, your mom, those things, it's a those are powerful, powerful words.

Yeah, all right, that's how you going.

We're going to death row.

Let's go to death row.

Wait a second, I'm coming round with that. Yeah, get get old.

Get your ass over here, Jesus Christ litterally, my bucking little league guy.

I told you, I told you it's good, all right? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I woke up.

That's the best thing I can do. Thanks.

What so how what? How long you been here now?

Two years now too? Yeah?

And you were aware before.

Season nough for two and a half years, and James sounds like three weeks.

And then I was here before that for almost ten years. Jesus, So how much more time.

Would I go back in FORO in? Two years?

In two years?

All right?

So that's around the corner.

And you're senior dougka Hey, tell Doug how we know each other?

Oh yeah?

Really well literally?

Uh?

Ten season twin city lit.

Bro.

Now, let me ask you a question. I'm telling you right now. He was a decent player, but you were much better than he was. I can tell right now.

All right, Hey, he did all right till until he ran into Kirk Yaeling and broke his arm.

Well there was that, See, Jesus, I mean a guy who remembers Kurt yealing, I'll feel the sacond based patient.

Okay, Uh, he was actually one year ahead of men?

Would you be could you have a chance keep going a plane.

In high school and college? Yeah? The choices I made right?

But but but when did you start making the crazy choices?

Quick them? Baseball?

Really?

So these I went from hanging out with guys like you and others, You're hanging out with guys.

Like, hey, what do you want to do? Let's go get right and.

What are you in here for?

Btrike?

Okay, yeah, so you're not You're not getting out, You're you're right now.

No, he's mean, he's coming up from eating right.

Now twenty eight and Jesus, I got a five years now just for a prison Davor.

Let me ask questions as the crew you have back in the day, the family are they do they?

Are they involving you now you see him?

Or is this your family here now?

Or what's your family?

Mainly here? My friends are here. I've been in throughout life, and I'll just struggle in here.

Uh but no, because when I first felt there wasn't a lot of communications.

The lines are so expensive at the time, and then everyone has their own life.

You know, they're you know, they're in the mid twenties, they're trying to start a family in their careers, you know, and they're still trying to fun.

He knows Hillary, you know Hillary, Okay, okay, crazy, that's crazy, little man.

So it was the drugs that sort of left that.

Oh absolutely, absolutely, you know, it was uh, you know, everything once I quit playing ball. And that's that's to tell these guys because now I'm coaching on the team.

Oh you're coaching mentally? Is sitting there? You're looking You're played right there over the La Soul.

I mean, I mean, is it like you're like, oh my god, it played little right there and now I'm right here.

Yes, everywhere I look. I have a memory. Yeah. But at the same time, yeah, it's knowing that I'm sober. You know, I went to school five. I mean, he's my house ten minutes.

The house is about seven minutes.

I appreciate you keep going.

What was it a roundable red table around round table pizza?

Oh yeah, that was our team right on.

Yeah that in the court Madero one in the court there. But I guess they put a bank there or something exactly. There's a bank there.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're getting old. Yeah, it's good to see you again. You guys get to go take care.

Good you look, I mean, the only thing that the only way this thing works is you guys make it work, man, And the whole idea is I mean, honestly, I'm not exaggerating. If we can make what's about to be unveiled on the other side of that wall and just tenexting the programming, and if if we can see the results of that, then we're gonna spread it in every damn prison and it's a big goddamn deal.

Do you think it's going to be picked up by other states?

That's the whole idea because everything California does.

Man, already, wait, thank you, thank you, appreciate it.

I ain't gonna happen, but I appreciate you, Man, President, I appreciate it.

Thank you for giving us hope. My name is just in my little thanks for everything you do. For appreciate man, Thank you. Uh, we got a lot of work to do here, bro.

I've been here in my whole dull life, and I've never had this much hope.

I love it in the future for us that's incarcerated people.

So it's a lot of that.

Comes from you and the work you do.

Appreciate it, brother, that means a lot. Keep it up, brother, Keep it up, guys. I'm good brother.

How you doing.

You're blessed. I love that.

I like that.

That's a good attitude. Take care of man Ward.

How many people were here at one time when this thing was fifty twenty years ago, in in death row.

So we had close to seven hundred, believe seven hundred people on death row when I when I got here, we had uh we have five over five hundred on death row on death row and they've all been moved out since.

Was that the biggest of any state, any state?

I would say yes.

I don't know though those data numbers for sure, but I would because as much as we have, you bro.

And how many people, how many people on a year, on a year basis were put to death.

The people's process is very wrong, so it wouldn't be yearly. It would actually be sometimes five.

Years, five years, So Doug, over the course of just the last couple couple months, they've I mean not even just a couple of months, I mean over the course of the last couple of years, they've been decommissioning death row and doing a risk assessment for everybody aside who comes off.

But this thing when we start it was completely fooled up.

Wow.

And you know these are you can see these single cells. Anytime someone came out.

Of the cell.

You can see the cages that they came in right over here. We'll go to the yard and you can tell me how great that is.

Yeah, you can appreciate the yard differently.

Yes, Scott Peterson was here.

We actually have another horse.

Segregation was actually iron came up and honor that will get it. They were programmers, so they would actually it's another building on top and their yard was on top of that building, and they were considered.

Honored, meaning like they were.

They didn't have any disciplinary issues.

Oh god, I gotta work your way up there. I think the most no bullshit.

The first time I came in, the most alarming thing was not what is it behind you? It was just seeing people in these things, wow, and going what the hell is this? You know, it's like a I mean that's this is these by the way, these are all going right, they're all going yeah the outside.

I yeah, we'll show these guys. You have me selling you guys want to go past each other?

You go back, you're saying, you're saying there be two people in these.

Yeah, so it's one person on top of person on bottom. So if we share this cell with somebody else, whenever I need to.

Go to the back of the cell and we go back to back, so Gavin would put his chest up against the rack.

I put my chest up against the wall, and we like, not back to back, going back to that way, that way, you know what I mean?

Yeah, back to the bay.

So it's just the size of the cells in the main in the part of the prison tent.

Yeah, this is the same size.

Yeah, pretty much.

You got another the buildings doesn't have that bar right there against the wall.

Wow. Yeah.

These were all single cells, right, I mean from death row.

Yes, they were all sulf Now you make someone have one, right, It's funny with me.

If people were here.

Till win one year, till a people once ago, weeks ago, they were just.

Here literally, and some people went to another and two together and they ended up selling out to guess it.

Okay, but I want to I want to show him some of them. Yeah, here's a more seeing Doug, go to the chapel.

Yeah, please the chapel. Wow, chaplin right there. But I thought this was just this was just from death row. Yeah, we're just you know, looking up with the bomb wire and everything.

Wow.

Yeah, and they and they would Chap will be right there right, And this should be once twice a day, once a week, once a week, once a week, that's it.

Once a week.

Yeah.

Well, and then you probably had your your most talkative and may was literally right there in the corner, right.

Yeah.

But yeah, if you want these these these cells when they're in the Wow, this is crazy. Yeah, no, it's uh, the first time I came in here, the most surreal thing, honestly, the most serial things. How many people recognize me, like almost without exception, and then when they heard your name and then just to hear your voices up top, you forget, you know.

I mean, you know, being a mayor being out there in public. I mean, that's that's that's.

Just it was to me.

It was a sort of eery experience.

And again, did the attorneys come in and eating these guys in here or is there another area where the attorneys come.

In and they would go to our visiting area a visitor Yeah, but but so this all.

At least for the interim, they're gonna take the these these out and then they're cleaning them in.

You're in the rites feels all my cleaner, Yeah.

Clean up, and the mills start bringing decompressing the general population, getting rid of some double bunks and bringing people in here.

Oh, you've put prisoners back into here.

We're gonna redo though, We're gonna, we're gonna if we want to change the image. You don't want to associate it with what it was. But the single cell is very important to a lot of these individuals because, like we were talking about, you know, there's some scenarios where you really can't choose it, you as.

We have even these in the same size as the main block. Yes, right, two people in the additions all there's no business. They're all the same communits correct to swe no sweets.

I mean there are some things we can do.

I think you saw the larger ones down there.

You know, we want to make kitchen ads and areas where they we'll get you know, microwaving through. We're gonna do different things to normalize.

Good time there.

We walked through there, so we're gonna just quickly show them into the yard.

Yes, they've evolved a long time. They're currently called individual exercise guards. It's proper.

But as you can see, it's pretty much just do so.

For the condemned inmates that come here for their quote unquote exercise. But we're read of Marshall all this is gone and so we're gonna have this for program, for yard, for whatever else didn't move September DA.

So you're gonna see, like, bro, you act like you on what's that home home renovation? Oh yeah, and this right here, this used to be my single cell incarcerated area. But I'm gonna tear it down. And I'm like, man, I'm gonna put a something right here with a gauz z bo and ship like what you're talking about? Man, you need to kick his ass up out of here. You just walking around this motherfucker like a grown man at uh Disney World or something not Disney World.

Brother, this I just for years we've been talking about this. It's finally happening. It's a big deal.

So do you understand what it do to me? Like I'm not like you know, I watched Ship. I see Ship and then it it fucked with me.

And just so.

You know what I mean, Like I don't want to keep getting reminded of that ship, Like get it. I get I get unless, but look, if we going there, me and you and the gloves, then I'll go in there. What's that? What the two of us don't mean the don't be in there with you for like forty five seconds, just me and you. You could lock the door, locked it on, give you the he is that clean?

Just blackout?

Damn damn grind And I wake up in Marine General Hospital.

Like, no, we're gonna take you to We're gonna take you to Highland. We'll get to We'll get to the hospital. Christ full manice back down here right if you don't have to go, We're gonna you want to see the gas chamber and say, hell no, I really don't want to see that, sick ass. But who the fuck be stinking.

Ship like, because it's important to understand it's not the barbaric nature of the past, So.

Don't they want to write that motherfucker up right now? It's just my day that I'm here. I want to make sure that should work.

It's on the outside.

It's literally outside.

You no my history, dude, ship, who would be making your mind even thinking? I just wonder if I just put somebody in this little place and just put on this gash in it and wonder what they would happen to him? Why would you want to do that?

That's this is the ald Gaston, not when we did this.

Decoration since decades.

They would they would be in there and the family would be out here, and it's just the guys would come in here.

They're saying it.

That's some white people ship for sure.

Why if we go outside, you can see the exhaust.

At the the smost.

History's history.

Bro, No, what was the process.

Today?

Coming from a one other sections and somewhere.

Else, they're not coming from this work.

Yeah, there's a back there's a back way to come in here. So it's actually by at the end of the east block of North Block.

There's access to here yet.

So they were just walking down.

It was like forty years ago.

I think it was like the last time, so before my time. So I went actual problem because leaf injection came after, right, so that we have a leathal injection. They tried to clean it up.

Try to clean it up, right, and that's been litigated because it's all the cocktails were so lenses used the victims family.

Well, I got it.

I gotta be honest.

Gavin. I mean this right here was the weirdest part of the day man.

Walking out of the gas chamber.

In nineteen eighty, when I was sixteen, seventeen years old, this thing still existed. I mean, I got it's I got a weird, weird feel right now walking out of their mouth.

And you should because there's dozens and dozens of people today that could be get condemned to death. And of course we're using more humane means now with leth injection, but that's just literally right next door. But the idea, the gas chamber, even leth injection, used to line people up and shoot them, hang people.

So you know, there's a It don't sound a little bit strange, y'all that when y'all be talking about this, it's like the people y'all talk about, is they.

Look like me disproportionate.

Man, That ship is fucked up, Like that's y'all, that's.

Because it's fucked moratorium, meaning I stopped it that.

We would have been doing you'd have been reading about. There have been protests right outside these gates.

We would quite literally put the ability to put a couple dozen or a dozen people to death.

Just before this, we saw death row, which was death row, and for them to be in the cells that you couldn't even move.

And then go into cages, I mean just to get to the yard.

Unbelievable in terms of uh, you know, how they're living.

So I applause, you for get rid of this.

Well, it was the largest one in the largest one.

And it's not just in America, in the entire Western hemisphere. We're one of the few countries on planet Earth, one of the few that still executes people. I mean the Yemen, in China, countries, the Western democracies have ended the death party.

Nah, you know what I just thought about right now? Damn standing next to you talking like this and you say, certain shit is way bigger than just having a conversation. The motherfuckna take it and blow that shit way out of proportion. We probably should get to the point where we don't have none of that ship. I think the rehabilitation thing, we we probably need to take that shit a little bit further. We're helping then incarcerated just like that.

To hear your story, end up food in the house, Galvin, I didn't grow up that way, so you did. And and to think the choices you can make tend up in here. Life isn't fair and and the imbalances are are This is a perfect example of it.

But the thing you get that it's not fair, right, But the thing is somebody implemented a system for it to be that particular way. It's just that I get the short end of the stick when it come to that shit.

Is that this old fray society becomes how we behave.

This has happened on our watch. This has happened on our watch. This is not someone else's problem. This is the world we have created. And so we all have some responsibility and some accountability.

Yep. So when you go around for president, but I was gonna say, you gotta bring me with you. You can get you from the you feel me level talk about because we don't have your level. But then you're gonna need do you feel me level.

Me?

And who are we kind of talk on the level.

President President about you gonna have you feel.

Me speak to do you feel me? When you spoke to the you feel me? That's how I do want to say that like you as you feel mean.

I want to say quick is this.

I want to appreciate you because you are the new wave of this and you're not the wave that you see and you hear about whatnot where you know you're the guy in shawsh a redemption. You're these different You're doing the new way because that's what it's all about. So I appreciate this today. It was real and enlightening and scary.

In the world.

So I appreciate what you're doing.

Because you were doing a ship. They wouldn't like, oh here it is Assholen ship. They were. It was for sure, it was different.

They know you had the which is really cool to see man, because I was not expecting.

But Doug, you know, also he is back.

I mean the people that these folks have hurt as well. I mean, this is not about being soft on crime. This is not about absolving any responsibility.

Quite the contrary.

People make a mistake, they have to not only live with that, they have to pay the price for the mistake they made. But again the reality is tens of thousands of people are released every single year back into your neighborhood. Do you want them to come back angry, with a chip on their shoulder, less productive and constructive, more likely to commit a crime again, or take the time to humanize and address the underlying reasons why they're

Twenty thirty people I met today are more compassionate at a deeper heart than a lot of people I see every day walking the streets going to stores at the DM. I mean, it is real, these guys. It's they got it. And what you're doing ward works work.

And what's so?

I think you hear you've lived it in all the work you've done. But I keep experience every time I come back. The folks have said t X number of years ago. I had no hope, and so I acted accordingly. I didn't give a damn about myself, I didn't give a damn about my cellmate, I didn't give a damn.

About the warden of the guards.

And all of a sudden, you guys started giving us hope.

That if we.

Program, we do the right thing, if we're more empathetic, if we address the issues of the violence we did outside these gates, and then maybe we have a chance to get the hell out of here.

And that mindset is pretty powerful, and I hope it's it's paying dividends for.

All the extraordinary staff that you have and and the hard work these guards do every single day. And I made this point about the California We don't want to do this to the guards. We want to do it with the guards, but nor do we want to do it to the inmates. We want to get there there

Yeah, I think that hope is safety for all of us. We walk in here and you feel the vibe. The vibe is kind of different. Right any given day you can walk in here, here a band playing, see a softball game going down. You know, we walked and talked and shook hands with a bunch of people that live and work here, right, and it wasn't this depressing feeling, right, So we're trying to make the best of what we got, but we got a lot more more to do as well.

Well.

I appreciate it, thank you.

I appreciate you, guy, it very much.

Appreciate it.

Thank you, sir, thank you, thank you. Appreciate you.

Yes, sir, I'm still trying to figure out how y'all got the bank b