Baby Blues

You know, Gavin is not pulling his weight, he's not quite cutting it. Luckily, he's not here to defend himself, so I'm here to step up and you know, be the face of this podcast. Um. This is a performance driven podcast and management has done a thorough review of your performance lately and you've come out flying. So we've promoted. You've got gonna see if we're gonna test you on the first line here, see if you can handle the big minutes, and then we'll review you after this show.

I look forward to that, but I'm super I'm excited to have anybody it's just you and I and we also have Amy in studio with us and in Easton's here as well, So super intimate group today. You'll quickly find out why it's just the two of you, and then that's it and we're going to get into a

serious conversation today. A few episodes back, we did a topic around me asking questions of fatherhood, and you weren't at that one because you're about to have your second baby and I want to know what fatherhood is like. And now you've had your second baby, and now we're going to do a deep dive into what that is truly like. So can you give us a little backstory here? How long ago was your second baby born? And and the what do you have? Boys? Girls? Just give our

listeners a back a little context here. So our first son turned to about five weeks ago, and on that same week, our second son was born, so they're almost exactly two years apart. Our youngest is now five weeks old. UM, and it's exhausting, truly exhausting. Like are you just saying like as parents say, like it's exhausting or is like can you unpack for somebody like me and Amy that do not have kids by exhausting? Like what do you mean specifically? I have so many emotions going through my head.

I am look. On the one hand, I'm like you, this is everything you've ever wanted, right, especially when you go through I v F. It's like you made the conscious decision to have another kid. We now have a second, perfectly healthy, happy son, and that is everything my wife and I have always wanted. Now, what I have come to find out in the last five weeks is that it is man on man, and it's dividing and conquering.

And I'm trying to work a full time job, trying to maintain a marriage, trying to keep my two year old happy and running around and keep a five week old from getting sick from the two year old, and a million things that. It's like, sleep is very minimal, Uh, there is no social life. It's a lot like I'm I'm at my wits end quite frankly, like I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I mean that seriously. Wow,

thank you, buddy, I appreciate you sharing. First off, I want to acknowledge you and your wife just for being parents to me. That's that's something I yearned for in my life. I can't wait. It's a it's something greater than any professional success or anything I could ever have. I really want to be the goals in my life that I had the biggest things in my life for to be a loving husband and a father one day. So I want to acknowledge you for being parents. I

look up to parents. UM, have the utmost respect for parents. So UM, that's why I want to ask you all this stuff. So I want to learn. I want to try and prepare myself. Um. But when you say sleep is like almost non existent, can you unpack that for us? Like so much? Would you sleep at night typically? I mean I I typically, Well, we slept trained our two year old when he was like three and a half

months months, which is pretty early. But uh, by night three, we had him sleeping eleven to twelve hours a night and he's done that since three and a half months till two years old. So we knew, my wife and I, that was our sanity. We knew at seven o'clock he

was going to go down. After we began the bedtime routine at like twenty of did the pajamas, did the books, to the teeth brushing, all that put him down At seven, we retreated to the living room porta cocktail, glass of wine, had our dinner, watched our show, like two hours of just us time catching up. That was very important for

our sanity and for our marriage. Um, now we we go through that same bedtime routine, but one of us has to be holding a baby who's you know, not comfortable or hungry or tired or cranky or whatever, while our two year old wants both of us present to be doing the full bedtime routine he's now become accustomed

to over the course of two years. And we put him to bed finally, and then we retreat to the living room where we now have an infant, a newborn who needs to be breastfed, where my wife is trying to juggle, like holding a plate of food while she's shoveling down that food, and like it's just a million things going on that we never have time to kind of like decompress. There's always someone needing us to help keep them alive or put them to bed or feed them or whatever. And it begins to wear on you

over a period of time. And I would say, is like I approach this from a pragmatic standpoint, I think, which is like, how can we divide and conquer and both kind of not spread ourselves so thin. So because my wife is getting up every hour and a half, that that's the one thing with our newborn. He's great.

He's a great baby, not colloquy. Whatever he is needing to be fed, they call it cluster feeding, but like he's he needed to be fed every ninety minutes for twenty four hours a day, every ninety minutes, and that feeding takes about thirty minutes to do, so if you

do the math, sixty minutes in between correct. And so we began in the in the first few nights where he was in a what they call a dock and top, which is like a little padded bumper mini thing that was between the two of us in our king sized bed. He would lay in there. She would set her alarm or hear him waking up, feed him, and I was on the other side of him, waking up every time she woke up, because she had to turn the lights on low and like begin the eating, then do the burping,

change him. That whole thing is like a whole process where I was waking up every time she did, and I said to her, this is not efficient and it's just not. It doesn't make sense. So I think I should sleep in another room so as to like have one of us getting sleep, and then I'll pick up a bottle feed for the first feed so you can sleep, and I'll do that in my room and vice versa. Right, did you guys do that on the first child? The

first child, we did not. Uh. Well. I eventually sept in another room, yes, like after the first week or two because for the same reason, which is like there was no reason for both of us to be up, and she was like, you had to go to work, and you know, there's no sense of both of us

being up, which I appreciated. Um. The other thing is like he's like, you'll find the babies they're constantly like choking a little bit during their sleep where they're struggling to breathe through their nose, and like I'm laying there, never fully asleep, like I did. You just stop breathing because it doesn't sound like he's breathing, and then finally like clears it. And while the pediatricians like they have the best gag reflects ever, like they'll never choke, they'll

be fine. Your human instinct is you're laying there and you're like, can I fully fall asleep right now or do I need to make sure my son is not dying? So then you're never getting that rem sleep, which as we know, is very important. Uh So here's where we go. So I say, okay, I'm gonna sleep in the other room. We have a three bedroom house, our guest room. I had to take the guest bed down before our new son was born and make that our second nursery. The

one bedroom is my first sons. Now the second guest bedroom has become the second nursery, so I don't have a guest bed in there anymore. So I had to make a trip to Costco to get an air mattress that I've been now sleeping on for five weeks. My back is killing me, but I'm trying to get sleep, and we gotta get rid of that air mattress. Where where did your mattress go? That was in the spare bedroom. The air mattress has a USB port, though it's an

arrow book. I'm amazed by that I can charge my iPhone. And which is where did your spare mattress from your second bedroom go? I had I had to sell, No I built, I bought a shed and then had a hand our handyman guy come build it with his son, and I paid more in labor than I did for the freaking shed itself, which drives me insane. But that's in the backyard now. With the bed and the mattress and everything put away, you gotta go wherever. So this is my advice because I've slept here. When I bought

my house in d C, I had no bed. The first thing I bought from my house was a set of drums, and I slept on a I slept on a uh inflatable like blow up mattress for like a week because I didn't have a bed yet, and then I was like, it was terrible. It was just awful. And then I finally bought a bed, and so, knowing how bad I felt at that time, you've been sleeping

on one five weeks. I'm coming over today to hit that, like, stab that thing with a knife so that you can't sleep on it, and all haul your mattress from your shed back into your house. You have to have a good mattress. Yeah, we have. We bought a daybed, so we have a new crib in there. We have a day bed, but the day bed will become my firstborn's regular bed when he gets out of the crib. But the mattress is super super soft, which is not good

for my back. Okay, answer this. Can we get your mattress from the shed into the house in place of where the bell. We'll solve the mattress problem. Keep going, I will solve that. So we have tons of sponsors. Casper, we got the mattress. Okay, Casper, are you listening, Casper, get this man a bed. So the other issues of my wife is like, look, she we had to come to Jesus moment the other week where she was like, Ryan, I gotta be honest, Like we we have no connection

or physical touch with one another at all. We're kind of like two ships passing in the night. She acknowledges that we're both trying to keep these kids alive and we're doing the best we can, but we're kind of like coexisting in many ways, which is tough mentally. And then, uh, the the flip side is like she's like, look, I feel like you haven't been very present with the baby.

Like I'm just being honest, I feel like you're not there with him, Like I'm he's constantly attached to me, and like it's you wanted to have this kid just as much much as I did, and you're not really like doing much with him, like which hurts, And I said, I get it. I actually acknowledge. You're absolutely right that I'm not doing as much with him. Uh, there's two

reasons for doing so. The first of which is a my milk hasn't come in yet and I'm not lactating, so I have the she did h. I said, I don't have the ability to breastfeed, which you do, And so I am looking at what strengths I have and what are your weaknesses. You're breastfeeding every hour and I can take our our son or two year old out to the park and like run he wants to run around. The kid's got so much energy, Like she can't do that. So I'm with him all day, like on the weekends,

dividing and conquering. So it's not that I don't love our baby. It's really like, I'm just trying to cater to my strengths, which are the ability to deal with a two year old who wants to run around and just like not sit still. Are you having issues bonding with the baby. A lot of men do I do. I feel honestly, like it happened last night, like when I I've now been more proactive and saying like let me hold him, especially because the two year old wants just mom to do so much that like that she

used to do that she now can't. So when I hold the baby, he's never I don't know if it's a maternal instinct that I would obviously lack, but he's not. I can't get him comfortable, like she can like position him in a way that like he can just like fall asleep and be comfortable. Well, I don't have that ability.

So I am like constantly on edge. And this weekend she said to me, she's like, it's important for me to be able to, like I'm in the house like twenty four hours a day sometimes like I need to be able to get out from my own sanity. So she went to yoga, and she did it when both of them were awake, not when our two year old was napping and I had one on two and it

was severe anxiety, like the baby was constantly crying. The two year old wanted to do crayons and this and that, wanted to go outside, play with the water table, wanted to go to the park. I can't do all those things. And I'm like looking at the clock being like what time is yoga over? What time is she gonna be home? Like when can this end? Yeah? So here here's a question. Thank you for sharingybody, this is this is this is

real stuff, like this is Brian's life going on. Um for this might sound silly, but I just don't know. What can you do with a five month or five week old as a men? Can you bottle feed it? Like you mentioned bottle Can you do that multiple times? Can they only do it once? I just don't know. Good question. So here's where we are. You can, Yes, you can bottle feed them. Now with this child, my

wife is elected not to pump her breast milk. Why because that one hour turnaround that you just mentioned that then becomes like a half hour because if you're pumping as well, you're spending another half hour to pump for a bottle to store the milk, so you're getting even less sleep. So what she has elected that we do is to supplement one bottle a day my nighttime feed with formula. So I have formula that I do at like midnight, I go in and give him that that

formula bottle. Now the issue is, uh, I have said to her, I'm like, look, I want to help out. I'm happy to do this and like sleep less and do the bottle feed so that you can get like a decent chunk of time that you can sleep. Because mentally, her thing is like she goes to bed and knows I have to now wake up in an hour and a half or then she's looking at the clock being like,

I need to fall asleep now. I need to fall asleep now, which is like a vicious cycle because you then finally are about to fall asleep and you're like great, I'm gonna get thirty minutes, and then you're up again and you can't function. But the issue that I raised, and maybe I'm a bad person for doing so, is simply like I have to go to a like job

at an office all day. And that's not to say you don't have a job being home and like how like keeping these kids alive and doing everything you're doing. I'm not here to belittle that, but I also have to go into an office and like lead a meeting and go have like fifteen people in a room where I'm trying to sell them on a vision or an idea and be charismatic and like convincing and articulate. And I can't do that if I am getting up every you know, and only having four hours of sleep, my

body won't function that way. And and by the way, our livelihood depends on my ability to do exactly that. So like without if I'm inadequate in my job, I can't pay for anything. Like you have no family here, right, We have no family at all, no none in l A that can help. And Amy is my pseudo therapist health and you ignored it though you don't like help, I don't because then I'm gone. You don't owe me. But this is where that comes comes up. I offered,

no you did. I realized that it checks you back. Amy's Amy's my pseudo shrink in that. Amy Her philosophy, though, is like just throw money at it. Throw money at it. And it's like the night nurse thing is like anyone listening around the country outside of l A or maybe New York right now is like a night nurse, like sack up, like plenty of people to I was like, let me bring dinner over so that it's one less thing to have to deal with. But you're very um

hesitant to take help. I also reached out to and said, can I help in any way with anything? And our friend Joe Smith, he just had their third boy, and I asked him the same thing, can I help with anything? He's like, I don't know. I don't know, man, just that you shut me down. You said, no, you can't help with anything, because then I would owe you one.

And Joe was like, I don't know anything helps. And so I sent Joe a couple hundred bucks on Postmates so that he could just he wouldn't have to make supper, his wife wouldn't have to make supper. You could just order something in a couple of times. Um, you need to let people help. Your good friends wouldn't even ask, They would just send Brooks, you said send flowers. That was actually your respond. If you want something, send me flowers.

Have you asked anybody during this the birth of your second boy the last five weeks, have you asked anybody for some assistance? Um? No, Brooks will talk about this, but you seem pretty emotional, like let it out. What are you feeling about all this well, like the the other thing that my wife said to me. And again this is not a knock on her, like where having

these come to Jesus moments? But she was like, her biggest thing is She's like, look, from three am till six am every day, She's like, I do the feed and he won't go back to sleep. Like she's like, I'm holding him eat, like I try to hold a passifire in his mouth. He won't go back to sleep. And she's like, so I am up now, like from three am for the rest of the day. And she said, the only way I can get him to fall asleep.

And we bought this thing called the snow, which is like high tech like rocks them in the crib and has like motion sensors and stuff. That thing doesn't work. I hope they're not a sponsor, because if they are, they're they're done. But it's a complete joke. Uh So, I mean that thing has like microphones in it that does swishing noises and like if it hears it crying, it picks up the speed with which it rocks him. And the it's a joke. Better just putting the kid on top of the dryer in the I have no

idea what he's talking about. Don't do that, don't But so she's like, look, the only way I've been able to get him to sleep is like if I put him on my chest and he's been falling asleep on my chest, and like I've been falling asleep too, but it's dangerous. And I'm like, well, are you in the middle of the bed. She's like, I mean, as much

as I can be, I guess. But like I'm like, well he could what if you crushed him or he fell off And she's like, yeah, so like it would be great if you helped me out for part of that, if you can, and and I'm like, well, I don't know if I can do that, because then I will not be sleeping at all. And she said, well, as long as you're okay with you know, the potential of him falling, I guess I'll continue to just have him on my chest. And I'm like, so, are you trying

to like cover your basis here? Like I have to sign off now that if he falls off the bed and like onto the floor, that there's like I've signed off or like because and and that if that happens. It's because I've elected to choose sleep over the well being of my son. What if you just put like blow up mattresses all around the band it's a for you. Um with your first boy, did he also sleep in the bed with you for five weeks or however long after he was born? And is that? If so? Is

it not? What is customary for a new parent? Does the baby sleep in the bed with the parents or does it sleep in it's a different room, not different room, not different like newborn's. Really the first few months, you're definitely in the room A and B. We're not that, we're not parents. Do you want to call him that? That? Like had our kids sleeping with us for very long. It was like for the first three months in a little padded thing where they just lay on their back

and they're swaddled. And that's just for ease of being able to Like you're up so much that you just lean over and you get them. We have a bassonet next to the bed as well. That's just not as convenience. There's no they usually stay in the bassonet in the room for the first few months. The bassinet is just like a crib, like it's just like a little thing. Yeah, it's like a little oval thing that's elevated that could you afford to help? I to me, it just sounds

like you need help. I understand that, Like, but help meaning having a night nurse that you're paying thirty bucks an hour to know? What about someone during the day.

We have a nanny. That's the other thing. Like, we have a nanny from eight thirty in the morning till to thirty in the afternoon that has been dealing that I've have signed off on and been all about from the very beginning, from the time just before my wife gave birth to our second We have a nanny that's there with my my two year old son, who takes him out of the house at eight thirty, feeds him, puts him down at twelve thirty, and he wakes up

from his nap at like two thirty. And then my wife has two kids from two thirty till I get home. So here's a question to you, what would be the biggest thing that would help you? Guys right now, the biggest thing would without a doubt be a large monetary contribution from you other than the second with Casper. Are you listening uh new, you're how's my sex life? As I said, it's like we are coexisting, like it's it's tough,

and like are you being affectionate or intimate or anything? Uh. We after we had to talk about like even just like hugging each other, which again it sounds so simple, but and I was dreading this whole conversation because Brooks is gonna sit here being like you need to suck

her toes and make her feel loved. But point being, it's like it's it's easy to just say that in theory now, like as a Monday morning quarterback, like oh, you know, you need to car make time for yourselves and like tell her that you love or even if it's just one minute, which I can hear Brooks about to say, it's making me nauseous. No, not at all, but thank you. But it's just tough, like because you're you're just trying to juggle everything and yeah, I'm not.

And we need to be better about that. We acknowledge that. And we in two weeks are gonna uh take the baby, just the two of us away for two nights and her my my father in law is gonna fly in from Denver and watch our two year old for two nights, which is like, from a mental standpoint, something to look

forward to is huge. That's awesome. Um. And by the way, no I have I have absolutely zero judgment or anything on that part of like on the relationship part of this, because even in my wife and I we we don't have kids, um, but even careers can pull us apart. And I can't imagine having a two year old and

a five week old sleeping. You guys know how much I love sleep, Like sleep to me is everything, and all of a sudden that's like destroyed for both of you guys, and then trying to connect on top of that, I can't imagine how difficult that was would be. And that doesn't mean that you guys don't love each other immensely, just like the factors contributing to lack of energy, lack of like all of that is the way through hell. Here's the other thing there is that there's a light

at the end of the time you touch. You touched upon two things though. You and I are liking that, and my wife acknowledge it. Last week She's like, I just realized, like you you need more sleep to function than me, Like and I do like I was used to like going from like nine thirty pm falling asleep till like six am, and like I needed that. Plus yeah, and and then the the other thing that you love most in life is the ability to work out, which I my routine up until the newborn was I would

work out every morning before work. And now I started from my mental sanity, Like that's a huge thing to like sweat and work out, and then you lose that because you're sleep you have to prioritize over being able to work out. And then the other times I've tried to set my alarm for an hour earlier than I typically would get up to get my two year old up to get his breakfast done. Like now I'm I'm working out on like four hours of sleep, and I it sucks and it's just impossible. Yeah, it's and you

actually you're you're half there, you're half not. You're just like trying to survive, literally, is what it feels like, versus like, yeah, this makes me feel good. I feel I feel I'm energized, I feel energetic. Um, feeling confident. Let's go to work. Boom my mom, I'm dialed in at work. Um, I can't imagine what that's like. Man.

I'm I'm really like empathizing here with you. Um. But good news is we have somebody that's going to help you with this, and it's not Yeah, we're gonna call our our our family and relationship therapist Gavin to grow to weigh in on what it's like to be married with two young kids. We'll get to our our help for you, my friend, right after this break back from break This is a special fatherhood edition of How Men Think. And I want to thank you. Ryan called it a

birth control Yeah he did. He message me He's like, this is gonna be birth control for you, Brooks. You're not gonna want to have kids after this conversation. But um, I want to acknowledge you, buddy, for being raw and vulnerable because a lot of people would say, oh, having kids is just the greatest, and that's just like that's

all they would say. But the point of this show is to dig in deep to men's emotions, what we really truly going are going through, and so I want to acknowledge you for opening up and sharing that vulnerable area of your life. I commend you, um. And as I said before the break we have some help here to assist you, to help you get through this. It's not Casper. We don't have a bad coming yet, but we'll work on that. But we do have Dr Chris Taylor coming on a special guest. He's a licensed therapist.

Chris is a nationally recognized expert on family issues, having spent over seventeen years working directly with parents and their families. He's a highly sought out, sought out speaker. He's also an author of the book Back to Basics. Uh, it's a parenting program, husband, father, This man can do it all. We're gonna bring him on right now to help you out. My friend, Chris, are you there? Yeah, I'm here. How you guys doing great? Appreciate you coming on. We got

Ryan here ready for you, Chris. And he's a trainer at Chris. He's a real hot mess. Um, Chris hurts when I hear firsthand. Chris, Can you give us a little bit, uh, and our listeners a little bit on your background? I give you a brief intro there, but can you tell us a little bit more about your presence in this space? Yeah? I mean I think you covered a lot of it in that intro, just working with families for the past seventeen years and just kind

of everything that goes into that. I'm sure you guys have talked a lot before he brought me on, um, you know, especially issues of being a dad. Um, just the stresses and and real life day to day struggles that we all go through and trying to figure out that kind of makes you know, there's the books what to do, and then there's the real life of how

do you actually do that? And I think what happens is most of the time it's not in the book, So what you do when you kind of pick up that manual and what you need to do is in there. So UM, so I speak on these issues obviously, I do my private practice therapy with families that are struggling with a lot of these same things. And surely my passion my mission. So I'm happy to be on with you guys to come of talk about some of these things. Thank you, buddy, I appreciate your time. Um. You are

aware of Ryan's situation all that's going on. Two year old, five week old, uh, trouble sleeping, trouble connecting with his wife, just kid, two year old running crazy. Um, what advice. Where would you start with somebody like Ryan, for any of our other listeners that might have young kids, Like, where would be the first place that you would look

at in the scope of him and his wife's life. Yeah, you know, it's a good question because I think you know, especially as man, we always try to be the superman to do it all, all the fixers, um. But really what you have to start with is yourself, UM, and ask yourself, like, are you taking care of your own

individual needs? It's a human being before you can give as a father, husband, and those are really kind of basic ways to do that, right, Just getting outside the house, making sure you're you're carving out some time to do things that you enjoy, whether you know, getting on the on the course and hid some golf balls or you know,

joining a bowling league. I know that's kind of cliche, but just those things that break free of that normal sort of day to day can be super helpful so that when we go back into the stress stressful situations, we feel more you know, sort of recharged and able

to deal with those stresses as they come. Can I just jump in if Ryan excuse my language, but if Ryan went to the golf course right now, his wife would literally be like, my husband is a like he sucks, So how is he supposed to do that without her just blowing up? Well, the other interesting thing to that point, Chris, which I think is a very fair point, especially with golf,

which is like a four hour endeavor. But she she would be perfectly okay with me going to play golf so long as it was reciprocated with her being able to go do whatever she wants to do for the same amount of time that I went to do it. So what I would be thinking to myself would be the joy that I would have on that golf course would be severely overshadowed by the misery I would experience when I was alone with the two kids and having to keep them alive, Like it's not worth it to me.

I'd rather be in kind of like purgatory where I'm consistently slightly miserable and not like in the in the the deep deep valley. Seriously is it? Yeah? No, I I hear you, And yeah, I think that vulnerability keeps, you know, to talk through those with your wife, to just name it, you know, is I have this guilt for my own personal enjoyment because I feel like there's punishment that's going to come on the other side. And and it's hard because you're naming that punishment as time

with your family right or time with your kids. But saying that because I'm so burnt around the edges right now, that's what it feels like to me. It feels like I literally have nothing to give when I'm in it just NonStop. It feels like I'm under attacked and I have none of that time to really be present in any one area of my life. So you know, I mean, just describing as that purgatory like you just did, I

think it's super important. It's gonna be hard for her to hear, but I think that realness, in the authenticity is you have to go there Otherwise what do you do? And you're just sort of playing a game and crushing yourself in the process, and you know, for your life, for you, for your kids the long run, that's not gonna be good for anybody. You. One of our very first Hell Men Think episodes you touched on that you said you had like man guilt anytime you went away

on business trip or a guy's trip or something. You said you couldn't even really enjoy yourself. You didn't want to come home and say I had the best time ever because you felt guilty about it. I want to downplay how good or fun it was if I know that she wasn't having as much fun while home. But but on this side, you're saying, on this agreement that Chris proposed, she would also have this turn of for herself.

So maybe at home during the time you were away, maybe she was like juggling the two kids, but she knows she's got X amount of hours coming up tomorrow or the next day or something where she gets to go to yoga or meditation, to have lunch with a friend, whatever her chosen activity would be. I just know I would be on that golf course. I'd be Okay, we're

on the back nine. Now, we're around the bend, that much closer to me doing double duty with two kids, like spraying balls all over the place because I'm losing my mind at what I'm about to be in four Could you do four hours with the two kids? You couldn't pull it off? I mean, would they live? Yes? Would I just be miserable? Yeah? Like I think once, Uh,

if the easiest thing for me. And what what she my wife typically does is she will go to yogur do whatever she wants to do over a nap for the two year old, which is like a two and a half hour nap. I can man on, man, I'm fine, but it's having the two is difficult for me. And and look credit to her because when I'm away late at night for work or overnight somewhere for work, she's doing both the entire time, you know, doing the bedtime

roteam for both of them. So it's it is possible, but maybe it's my inability to have a maternal instinct or familiarity doing it so many times that I'm not as comfortable, Chris. Is it typical? Ryan's not bonding with the baby as much. Is that typical? He's much closer with the two year old. It's a better relationship, closer with my two year old. But yeah, I don't bond as much with the baby, Chris, because I feel like I'm not as equipped to, uh, you know, keep the

baby happy as my wife. So I choose to deal with the of your old who I know exactly how to make happy. Yeah, I mean I think it's it's fully reasonable. And and very common that you would have that experience because we're not sort of built to bond at that time with infants in the same way that the mother is. Um. I mean, you just look at breastfeeding. Unless you're gonna start trying to do that with your kid, You're in a whole another ball game with what you're

able to do. And I think you know, dad's roles is typically as that play partner right at that stimulator of imaginary play, of excitement, of sort of outside stuff of adventure, and that only comes online when that kid really starts to be more mobile and active. A lot of guys that I talked to start talking about their fantasies of like when my kid is ten years old or when they're eleven years old, they can start being on a field, or they can start being involved in

other activities. And that's why they really feel like that relationship is going to come alive. And I think because it does become more of a relationship then where you can engage in communication, you can have those you know, sort of deep down core value talks and you know kind of bestowed that wisdom that um, you know that we all has been kind of want to give to uh to our kids. So and I think that's part

of it too, not guilty yourself and shaming yourself. Well, something's wrong with me because I can't there's my incidant. This is my child, and it should be just in this like constant state of euphoria. I think you have to be raw and honest. They know. There's times when I look at that kid and I think you're the reason that me and my wife aren't close. You're the reason I'm not getting my free time. And it's not that you're attacking your child, are blaming it, or wanting

any ill will towards it. It's just that you're being honest within yourself about what that deeper, you know, emotion really is. Yeah. The other thing that I'm curious what you think about is when I get home from work and it's you know, there are times when it's like my wife has just dealt with the two kids and they've been a nightmare and she is at her wits end, fried and it's that that very common um situation where

the wife. Then you walk in the door and before you can put your stuff down, the baby is handed to you. And it's like I've been dealing with this, hold the baby, now you need to deal with it. And in my what I've said vocally is like, I have just been at work all day and I also need a break. So for me to come home after being at work all day and immediately jump right into

this is like it's just it's daunting. It's like when so then I'm constantly saying, Okay, get to seven o'clock because that's when the two year old goes down and then you'll have a little relief. But you're looking at the clock the entire day saying five hours till seven o'clock, four hours still seven o'clock, and it's it's tough. Yeah, And and again I would say that's the common experience.

You know. We think that it's just like this other side of things where we're just so happy and here, let me help you, and you go take your breaks and I can just but no, you know, we're kind of miserable. We feel like we lost that earlier part of our lives. We feel scared that we're never going to get that back. We look at that need for physical contact and then see intimacy with her wives and she's backing away from us. Because she's like I just need to retreat, I need to go take care of myself,

and you're then stuck in that role. Was like, well, you either have to do everything and just shake my way through it, or you know, I don't think there is kind of another or for a lot of men, they just do that. That's what I wanted to ask you that I feel like it's the elephant in the room is do you have a lot of clients where this is when the man strays from the marriage. What

do you mean by strays cheats? Yeah, I think it's it's the stress of it because it's such a game changer for relationships, and especially when it's your second you know, you feel like, Okay, we we conquered the mountain, right, we climbed to the mountaintop, we got through it, and then you're seeing like this light at the end of the tunnel. Right, it's like the water at the edge of the desert, and then you get to it and boom, you add the other one in and it's like, this

is never gonna end. This is just going to be my life. And I think all of that like read playing of nostalgia and like the single man syndrome that we're like grafting greener. That all comes into play, and

especially when there's that breakdown in intimacy. Sure, you go to work or you're at a coffee shop and that attractive woman gives you a smile from across the way, and it's sort of that like, hey, wow, somebody sees me for value other than or maybe I could engage in this life different than And you know, it can spread like wildfire in our minds because we're so susceptible, us needing that validation. So how do you bring back the intimacy in marriage? Let me say, Amy that that

is not happening to me. Chris Amy began when I walked into the studio today by telling me I look horrible. So there's not a in the country that has given me remotely a look of anything. So you don't look great. I'm not gonna lie, but how you getting hideous is a good thing in this case, it's working for his wife for sure. So how when there's coop and diapers and breastfeeding and no one's sleeping and all these things, how do you even have intimacy in a relationship with

all that sort of it just sounds. Yeah, it suffers, there's no doubt about it. I mean, I think that's when you enter into the you know, let's get a babysitter, let's get a parent, Let's get somebody that can help us out at least just for a few hours. Get outside the house, go on a date, get to know the person again outside of the stipers and the feedings

and the lack of sleep. Um, even if it's like I don't want to get dressed up and go somewhere nice, can we just go sit somewhere away from this um? And then there's the sort of cliche rule of you talk nothing about kids, you're talking nothing about work, right, You really treat it almost like it's the first state, and you try to stimulate that sort of romantic appeal and get it that. You go back into the house and you're kind of back into that stress and the

breakdown is still there. But with enough attention to each other, I think you can at least start to key in on the emotional intimacy and you know, over a little bit of time that's going to lead back to that physical intimacy returning. So, um, there's not an easy solution for it, but it's giving you, guys both permission to sell away at the same time and nurture your relationship because without a strong you know, marriage and parental units, I mean, the kids are gonna suffer. You guys are

gonna suffer. It's not good for anybody. So, um, I know that's when dealty comes back and around and kind of, you know, try to bite you again. But it's like, hey, like,

what are we really doing. Are we trying to sacrifice literally ourselves in our marriage for our kids or are we trying to strengthen ourselves that although at times may feel like we're sacrificing the kids, we're really not because I think you know, especially if kids get older, they need that break from parents and much parents need to break from them. So I love that. I think that's I was once told friends gave me advice once and I I asked parents about this because I think it's

I'm curious on how parents look at it. Um. I was told, when you have kids, make sure that you put your partner first, because if you and your partner are strong, the home will be strong and the kids will have a permanently strong home, Versus if you constantly put kids first. Kids first, kids first, the parents are going to drift apart, and maybe that leads maybe it's not this year, maybe it's not next year, but maybe it's a couple of years down the road to a

divorce or loss of connection or something. But um, I've asked a lot of parents this question, and the answers are honestly are like fifty fifty. Some are like no, my my wife and I we put our kids first, and some are like, yes, we put each other first and strengthen our relationship. And kids are tough, they'll they're okay if they don't go to the park today or something. But um, as long as we're strong, the home will be strong. What do you Which way do you lean? Ryan?

You have kids, so actually, like, which way do you lean? As long as we're strong? Well, it's it's not like you're not going to feed your five year old like or five month old or five week old. Um, you have to do that. But like I loved I I agree with what you said, Chris, Like do you agree with that as well? Or which way do you look at it? I do agree with it, but like I'll give you an example. I'll be completely real for a second, like we as just to back up, and we went

through IVF. So when you through IVF, you cannot have sex over the course of IVF because you're being pumped with hormones, You're you're doing shots into your stomach with estrogen, all sorts of stuff. So you you're not allowed to have sex because it's dangerous for there's so many follicles that are being stimulated. You're at the risk of having multiples. Uh,

so you can't have sex. So I think we are in a position where that began a year ago, where you go through a long, long I VF over a year ago cycle of like you lose that intimacy or sex part of your marriage be per doctor's orders, legitimately, and then you finally get pregnant, and it was a tough pregnancy and you know, my wife did not feel great quite often. And so when you don't feel great and you're pregnant, you're not really clamoring to have sex.

And so then you go through that whole pregnancy and then you give birth, and when you give birth, things happen where you have to be dormant again post childbirth so that everything heals properly and it's like you look at the calendar and that's a long run of a

lack of intimacy for good reason. And maybe Amy's going to tell me I'm making an excuse, but like not that that really and and my wife and I have just talked about it, like that is tough too for a marriage, and again, like that was the cards that that was dictated for us because we had to adhere to certain but like that is very trying, and it's tough to feel like you're not just cohabitating and coexisting in a household when you have haven't had the ability

to be that intimate for all the reasons I just laid out, So that weighs on both of us. It's a two way street, Like it weighs on us, and that that is very tough for me. How would you go with that, Chris? Just the compounding the year long, year plus long journey which lacks intimacy. How would you try And I mean you mentioned it about trying to get out of the house, but how would you go

at that a little deeper? Yeah, I mean it's it's hard, especially for men because we crave that, you know, not say that women don't, but particularly crave that physical closeness. I think you try to achieve it by other means, you know, in the interim, with emotional intimacy, sharing vulnerabilities, trying or something. But yeah, okay you can too. But that's what came into my mind, like a little bit

of sexting or something, just a little something. Yeah. I mean I think you've got to keep it interesting and keep it kind of flirty. Um, and you know, be cautious about developing the resentments of like what can't happen um, and try to focus on maybe what you can do in the interim. Um. You know, in physical touch obviously comes in a lot of different forms. There's not just intercourse. I mean there's you know, there's a touch and you when you when you when you say it like that

you have me a hello, but um, um, all fut stuff. Well, and I think you have to have that conversation like, look, I have these needs and if these needs go on met like, it affects me emotionally, um, And taking that risk to share that from that perspective, and I would say that your wife like understand that and wants to

be able to give that to you. Obviously she has those restrictions because what her body is going through and that's difficult for her, but also asking her like, are there things that I can do for you physically that are stimulating, that you know, would give you that sense of connection? Well, like about Chris works is into sucking toes just saying no, but we don't want to go down that path. I say you try it. Hey, if you're if you're at a little stalemate here, I say

you try IVF. Question, So, if you're not allowed to have sex during IVF, are you allowed to have you know what other stuff the O word, Like, is the woman allowed to have an orgasm? Yes? Uh, you're not You're not you basically you basically just turn off like you just like let's that was That leads to my next question, Chris, I wanted to ask you because I agree you can try those things. Is there also just another side of this where you just say, hey, this

is a stage of life. Let's just battle and grind here. By the time the kid is four months old, he's going to be out of our bed and and let's just uh, let's just champion this. It's not that much further, Like, do you ever just resigned to that or you just or do you try to keep working at trying to build this intimacy and keep that present. Knowing that you're in this stage, you always got to be working at it. I mean, you can't sort of ever admit defeats this

is just the way it's going to be. I mean, I think if you do go through those periods, because you know, obviously in any marriage there's going to be there with rough patches that you do a good job of communicating through it of what the real deeper feelings are. I mean, maybe even things come up for a lot of us around rejection or abandonment. You know, we lean into a partner and we want that moment of connection and they're tired or you know, they're frustrated about the

kids and they pull away. We can feel that from a personal perspective of you know, they're rejecting me because of me um and kind of lose tracks. So if we're even going it's deep, you know, emotionally and from a place of vulnerability in that way to share Okay, you know, I'm feeling really rejected. I know it's not necessarily you doing that to me, but but this is

this is my emotional experience. I think those things can really bring couples closer and try to you know, bridge those times where you know, maybe it is six months, a year or two years where there's just maybe not much if any of you know, that sort of sexual connection. Um. But I would never want a couple to resign to just while we're just going to kind of give up for the next four years and that's not going to be a part of it, because it's not going to

end well. I mean, I think we all know that. And one of the things you said, Chris, I agree with, but I would I have a counter for you, which is me being completely real, which is you know, you said, look, obviously, uh, doctors can dictate inability to have sex for for medical reasons and all that, but there are other ways and things that you can do. You said that I can go to my wife and say, like, look, here's what

I'm lacking, here's what I need. I know we can't have intercourse, but like, here's what I need and what I'm missing, And I had that conversation, and we had that conversation, and she was completely receptive and like was appreciative that I came to her and said that and wanted to help and make sure that we connected on some level, and the issue became It's like she felt

this was during pregnancy. She felt so awful that in my head, I'm like, you know what, who am I Like, I'm gonna while she's feeling like she's gonna puke all day, like I'm gonna come say like I have needs. Here are my needs, Like you need to help me with my needs. It's like I feel like that is a

pretty selfish thing for me to do. So I'm sitting back saying, you know what, dude, screw your needs, Like this is a period of time she feels like crap, you know, respect that and don't be demanding and asking her or laying out your needs like this is not your time to do that. I could give you another side. I could give you another side on that that it might make her feel good to fulfill your needs. I'm

just throwing that out there. Yeah, and and like we had that like that happened, but it also it just was like a process of like it felt transactional and that she felt so awful that I knew that it

wasn't like she was like really excited. Well, I could give you some other ideas off there, and I think to like going to that second level of like sharing that other experience of what you might think she's thinking through that process and not assuming that you know, but sharing it with her and see what she does with

that additional information. Um. And also like it's not a demand, right, it's it's just you're putting it out there from a need perspective, but as like adults were actually be willing to hear the word though, and sometimes she may say I can't do that for you, and then that leads obviously to a different type of conversation as far as the feelings that come up, and you know, more of that vulnerability should come out in those situations so that

at least again when it's not say the poll, strengthen the emotional intimacy. Um, Chris, we only have a couple more minutes left with you, but I wanna I wanna ask you one almost one final thing. So what I've listening to you here, what I've heard you say, and it sounds like you're saying communication through this whole thing is is paramount. Um. What other things for Ryan and for our other listeners that have young kids that are

going through the same thing. What are some other things that you could say you really need to pay some attention or some focus on these sort of things individually and within your relationship some time apart, some time that makes you happy, communication between partners. What other things should UH couples be looking at and paying attention to in this stage of life. Yeah, I think just really being

cautious about entrenching ourselves into negative thought patterns. Right, will will experience this flood of emotion and that becomes a reality that then we dwell, it's sort of lived, and you know, emotions aren't static. So try to find ways to enjoy fatherhood. Try to find ways to just break free with that older child and go to the park for you know, even if it's just ten fifteen minutes, to really focus on building that bob and doing something

that's emotionally uplifting with our kids. Um, because I think oftentimes we focus so much on ourselves and our spouse on the stress of it, that we don't leave a whole lot of time for fun um. And then you know, as men engaging other men in their experiences as well, not feeling like we have to pull back and remove ourselves from from just sharing that this is hard and it's overwhelming at times, and there's times where we're just in that dark room modern knees, broken down, asking ourselves

like what did we do? How did happened? And that that's okay, Um, but there's no shame in that, And that doesn't mean we're a bad person or a bad dad or a bad husband. Means we're being a good human. That's pretty good women women do that all the time, and men don't do that as much. I don't think, Yeah,

men feel on that's wonderful advice. M Yeah, men feel like and I feel like this and I don't even have kids, but that, um, whatever happens in our family, like I feel ultimately responsible for it, which sounds like you like you just bypass on your needs because your wife is not feeling good, so you're like just push it, Like how who am I to ask my wife to

make me feel good when she's not feeling good. So I think men in general, and not saying women don't, but men in general have that like they'll sacrifice almost anything and that it all comes, not all, but at at the end of the day, they feel so much. Um, what's the word I'm looking for. Pressure? Is it? Is it pressure or just responsibility to like really really move

the family through life, your obligation. I think men feel that is imperative, but I think it's I think it's I think what Chris just said is amazing to say, like like men could admit defeat and be like like I don't know, I'm I'm busted down right now, Like I need help. This is what's going on, um and allow your wife the chance to step into that and support you. And it's something I've done in my own

life lately. I've never done this in my life, and probably the last two months there's been times where I've really asked my wife like, hey, I'm really struggling with something right now, and she's really stepped up to the plate and supported me. And it's been it's given me like a hundred times more energy and help me amazingly the rest of the week, the rest of the month, whatever it is. Brian, you need to pay attention to that because Brooks is a man and he's willing to

ask for help. You have a real issue asking for people to help you. Yeah, I fell asleep when Brooks was talking about Sorry, but so Chris, we'll let you go. But Ryan doesn't like to ask for help. He doesn't want to let me help, he doesn't want to let Brooks help, he doesn't want to let the neighbors help. He just doesn't want anyone helping because he feels like he owes them something. But I think he's doing himself

a real disservice. Yeah, and I get that. I mean I think to some extent, you know, us as men, we all have that at different times, and there's only

one way to get through it. And you just got to get over it and move forward and just say, hey, either either I break myself down and wreck myself emotionally and physically through this process, or I do the thing that I know is going to help me, and you kind of have that call out, gut check moments yourself, and then you just move forward and start asking for help and start naming the problems. And you know, not

always have to have the solution either. Just naming the problem sometimes can be just that freeing sort of relief from you know, holding onto it. So I know it's hard, but we have to all as men, sup for each other to move in that direction. Well, Chris, I'm gonna take this opportunity to ask you to help babysit. If you we'll give you my address off Fair and Look, it takes a big man to ask for help, but it takes a bigger man to actually offer their help.

So thank you in advance for offering. You don't even say offering, you say for babysitting tomorrow tonight. I'll be there in five minutes. Chris, you're the marriages on the line, Um, Chris, you're the man. We appreciate you so much. For our listeners that want to find you, find more about you. Where can they find the book and where can they reach out and connect with you? Yeah, books on Amazon, So you can just do a Google search for back

to Basics and it'll pull up. And then my website website is just Chris Taylor m FT dot com and so they can go on there find a lot of asial information about awesome buddy. Thank you very much. I'm gonna keep you on speed dial for when I have kids someday. But I thank you so much for coming online and helping Ryan out here. And then Ryan, I want to dig you more into this this help thing. After the break sounds good. Thanks Chris. All right, thank We talk about it all the time. We're not afraid

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that's off your first purchase. Visit Native Deodorant dot com and use promo code h m T. Back from break this This has been This has honestly been one of my favorite podcasts. And Ryan just I think he's turning to a cocktail to survive this. Yeah, I mean I just looked at the clock and I'm like, well, by the time I get home, it's cocktail hour. We should we should have had some like bourbon in here for sory. Do we have any alcohol? Do you want something to drive? Um?

I want to. I want to. I want to unpack this story a little more. Buddy, thank you. I can acknowledge you enough and say thank you for opening up, because I think a lot of people in our community can resonate with and and they maybe hide their feeling and say, oh, having kids is great, it's great, it's great. Here's the raw and reel behind having a kid. And

that was the purpose of this show. When we started out, we said we're gonna be raw, authentic, organic, genuine, and you're giving absolutely vulnerable, sharing open in your heart to our community and hopes that this helps serve the community. So I just want to acknowledg you again, Buddy. I would just say, you feel guilty when you when you are vocally discussing how miserable you are for something that you fought so hard to get, which is a is a first and a second kid going shelling out tons

of money, putting my wife's body through everything. It's you feel guilty being like I'm miserable. It's like you you know what you went through to get to this point, like this is everything you wanted, Like shut up in such a life, you work your ass off to get

the job, you want to complain about it, that's okay. Um. Also, I want to touch on what you said about how it's been like a year long sort of journey of a leading toward a loss of intimacy because the IVF thing, my wife and I have been through it, and it's not like IVF just ends after two weeks or whatever and then oh boom, hey we're right back to it, Like there is a couple of months hangover from that where she still doesn't feel good, like it's it doesn't

just end and okay, life is back to normal, Like there is a drawn out period and then if you're pregnant, you go right into that, you know, and then it just it gets it compounds and compounds and compounds. So I think that's super important as well, what you mentioned, and just to to empathize with you as well, like I know what we went through, but we didn't get

pregnant coming out of it. But um, but so are you acknowledging that that you had a similar experience with respect to your what is now a very vibrant sex life that you have. Was that impact He doesn't have a perfect sex life. You tell him no, but like I'm curious he doesn't. He does now, but he didn't. We're going to talk about it more next week. We'll give him a little tar Okay, I'm an extremely happy man, I'll say that, but yes, I will say at that time, yeah,

there was that was new to me too. I've never been through IVF. You know, we both of us, we had no idea what to expect. It's it's amazingly difficult on my wife's body and what she's going through. And at the same time, you know, you do as a man, you you do still want to sexually connect. But I'm like, like, she just feels terrible, Like let me just like get like thank you get yeah, I I. And then it

carries on for months after that. Yeah, and it's difficult, and then we had to work to like rediscover and and get our sex life to be back as a vibrant part of our relationship. But that is helpful for me to hear, because you know, it's easy in theory to say like, oh, no, you just I have I have needs, Like no, you feel like crap, like screw my needs, like I'm here for you, right, that's kind

of what you did too. It's because you love your wife and I love my wife too, so you're you're like, as a guy, I'll just yeah, what do you need? Like I will table anything that correct. But women are like that too, so there are times when they might get a lot of pleasure out of giving pleasure. Yeah. Yeah, at some point somebody has to make a first move back into the space, you know, and and that's a

soft little dance that you figure you're out. But yeah, we did have a similar trajectory, and anybody else that's been through I v F I would bet probably has because it's not like you just do that, Okay, fourteen days, boom, here we go, we're back at it. It just doesn't go that way. It didn't for us anyway. UM. So I want to dig into something, um, which is this question for you? And and deeper than just like the surface answer, like what is it? Why is it that

you are unable to receive help? Like really, what is it? It's a good question. I I mean, look first and foremost, I would say, maybe this is a cop out because I don't have family here, like I think it's easier to accept help from a family member because they are your blood. They are your family. That is what family is for. And yes, your arguments could be, but that's

what friends are for. A second, Yeah, so like family, because I don't really have family, neither my wife Nora have family in Los Angeles, we now don't have that ability to just say, hey Mom, hey dad, can you just come over while we go out, like that's at the window. And so then you're left with friends, many

of whom almost all of whom have their own kids. Right, So, like the grandparent thing is great because they they're retired and like their grandkids are their lives and they have nothing to do or don't want to do anything but

help out and be with their grandkids. Like it's a it's killing two birds of one stone because this is exactly what they want, spending time with their grandkids, and like they're also helping you in the process, whereas a friend would be kind of being put out by offering their help and having to now take on an additional burden when they have their own work life balance that

they're trying to juggle. So I think that's the biggest reason why but what But what if they're actually like in a really good spot where they're like, yeah, life is great, man, Oh you're struggling. I've buddy, I've been in there. I know what you're going through. How can I help? I told you I wanted to send dinner over. I meant it, and you're like ignored me. Yeah, so I don't know what to say. And Brooks offered help and you ignored it. I think I told him to

send flowers to the strip throughout awareness fun staff. I think it's fair what you're saying about the family because it is much easier. But I do think it's only two more months that it's going to be like horrendous, So why don't you let everyone help? You know, Like, look, we've had a few people that have sent food and

that was really nice. But like, if I'm being honest, like the food thing is really nice and generous and appreciated, but like I'm also that that's you're giving me money basically because like I have, I have Postmates and Uber Eats and everyone this could be home cooked too, and then you have leftovers and the whole thing. We're not sending over Chipotle, although to Chippotle is delicious. I've been

getting it every Sunday. It's pretty amazing. But I think you need to let Chicken come over and help with the kids. With the watching of the kids and the taking the kids. Yeah, here's a deal. When you have a five week old, like you can't really leave. You can't leave because you need to be breastfeeding the kid every hour or so. Yes, like but but so you're never You're always going to have that baby there, and that's fine, Like I guess, but I guess did you

see how I said? I guess I'm just saying it's like it's great and there, No, we'll come watch the kids. No, you can watch one of the kids, but one is better than zero. Yeah, I guess you even said it.

Like two weeks from now, your father in law's flying in and you're so looking forward to just having one, like even just that mental boot and we're because we're getting out of town to we're gonna stay in a hotel and like just like it'll yeah, we're gonna watch movies and it'll be just a change of scenery, just stuff that if the mood strikes. Amy. Wait, I have

an idea. Can people call. Can you give the number easton so people can call that have been there and maybe their little secrets or tips that we don't know, or they can always email us at men at i heeart radio dot com. That's what Eastern We give the number. Take your time, east is there. I'm going to give Gavin cell just in case. M Is there anything else going on Ryan that we don't know? Like you unpacked almost everything for us, but is there anything else that

we don't know? You have a few hours or are we on time? That time tells what he might be able to help with this. Yeah, I'll I'll launch and do exactly what I know Amy wants me to launch and do, which is we have a twelve year old Yorky Yorkshire Terrier named Gus that we've had forever. My wife had Gus when I met her. Gus had an incredible life when he was an only child quote unquote. Then the two year old came into the world not

as a two year old, but as a newborn. Uh. But but with the first kid came less attention for Gus, less walks, less petting, less everything. And you're a dog guy, so I'm dying to hear what you think about all this. By the way, happy belated to your old birthday, Dakota, thanks buddy following your Insta stories. Nice to have a

break from the workouts. Uh. And so then the newborn comes and Gus becomes even more territorial than he was before, where like he is now fighting almost literally for affection and like it sees these two babies, a toddler and a baby as threats to his livelihood and his attention, and so he his life has suffered. And we basically had this come to Jesus moment the other like a

month ago. We're like, you know what, this is not fair to us, Like we don't it's something we don't love him anymore, but we just don't have the bandwidth two be dealing with two kids and also giving him the infection and the attention and the walks and all

the things that he used to be accustomed to. So we had what some friends have dubbed to be a very selfish moment, where I would argue it's a selfless moment, and that we we went onto an adoption site to try to find a new home for Gus when he's lived with us for twelve years. Found a woman who lost her husband three years ago, who is seeking companionship.

She's lonely, like she saw his photos online, fell in love with him, made her background on her iPhone his photo the minute she saw it before she even contacted us, which was a little weird in retrospect. Uh So, so we interview her over the phone, and she's like asking all the right questions. She's just like, doesn't have kids, can just be one on one with him. We're like, you know what, this is perfect. She drives an hour away to come see. As we meet her, we're like, okay, yeah,

we're gonna give you Gus. We give her Gusts, the bed, the food, everything. She goes home and for the past month, Gus has been living with her and she's texting us saying, oh my god, he's everything I've wanted in my life. He's so amazing, Like he sleeps with me, you know,

all these things. Until last weekend. Last week on Friday, my wife gets a voicemail and this woman is like seventy years old, like the most mild mannered, like polite person, and she is aggressive on the voicemail and says, Gus has turned on me. I don't know what has gotten into him, but he nipped at my friend and he does not like strangers, and he mouthed me, and I'm like,

what he mouthed you stuff? Yeah, like at least one of us is doing mouth stuff, and so I'm like okay, and so she calls us, and it's like I need to drop him off. I cannot deal with this stress, like I'm done with Gus. And we had like finally turned the page where Gus brought a lot of stress in our life too, because a or two year old was chasing him around and like hitting him with like

plastic golf clubs, and he was miserable, quite frankly. And then he like, when the two year old will go down, then there to be a ups guy outside, and Gus would bark and wake the two year old up. Like I'm ready to lose my freaking mind with Gus. No offense Gusts. So finally we get rid of Guss, and it's like he's off to greener pastures with this seven year old woman who's like filled the void of her

dead husband. And now all of a sudden, the tides turning Gusts is coming back and on Saturday, I greet this freaking woman out at the curb because I don't want her back in my house because I'm so piste off at her. And she's like here he is like, this is really upsetting for me, and I'm like, yeah, okay, where's the bed and the trunk. Just pop the trunk. I can carry the trunk the bed in. No, no, no, I got it. Well, this is really upsetting for me. And I told my wife, I'm like, you know what,

I'm gonna tell her. This is right before I walked out side. I said, I'm gonna tell her. Oh, I, I'm so sorry that he attacked your friend and mouth qu um. In light of the fact that he's been so vicious towards you and your friend, I've arranged for him to be put down to And my wife was like lost her mind on me, like I will not talk to you the rest of the weekend. Are you serious?

And I'm like no, like she I want her to have to live with the fact that she believes I'm not gonna get him put down, but I want her driving back an hour to Palm Dale thinking because of me, I this dog has now lost his life. I want her to live with that. I did not do so to preserve my marriage, but I wanted to, and instead I gave her the cold shoulder. I took us, I took the bed, I walked inside. And now he's back at home barking at the goddamn ups driver. Can we

get the therapist back on the line, producer Tory? Can you take Gus? And my wife can't breastfeed on the couch because he's jumping up on her and we're and you're gonna keep Gus Now? Has a woman? Has a woman reached back out and said, hey, I'm sorry I was wrong. I want Gus back. No, she hasn't. She was probably scarred by the way I treated her curbside. But fine, So now I'm back to this this like adoption site where I'm reviewing. Don't have any friends that

could take us. Well, here's the thing. A friend this weekend says, I tell him the story. He's like, this is unreal. He's like, his wife comes, He's like, tell Steph the story. I tell the story. Steph. This morning, I get a call in the way and he's like, you're not gonna believe this. Like they have three kids. He's like we promised them that we would get them a dog if they got good grades on their report card they have. Steph keeps talking about how she wants

to get Gus. We weren't going to go buy a dog from a breeder, like we if we're gonna do it, we're gonna adopt. But like Gus is like a good dog, like I know you, I trust you, Like are you like what do you think? He's like? I don't know if I really want this to happen, but like the kids do, like do you think that's the universe? Give him? So he goes. But I would just ask, like if we have to go away for vacation this summer or this or that, you would take us? And I'm like, yes,

here's the deal. Don't want a family that has kids because he can be like we don't. I don't know how he's gonna be, And I don't want to live with like another person that three weeks from now calls me, It's like, yeah, I didn't. I've create problems that aren't there.

You totally create problems that aren't yet real. I would rather find a single person who is going to devote their life another person I have twenty five applications that I'm sorting through as a second full time job with like all these people asking me is a non hypoologenic and also so let me let me acknowledge you again.

So one, my heart breaks that you are at the point where you need to give us away because I know how much dogs mean to families, So that like, that's not an easy decision for anybody listening to things Ryan his wife just give this dog away. No, that's not how it happens. It's it actually brings validation to how much you guys are going through at the moment

that you would even consider that and go through with that. Um. And I also love that you said, like you want to find one person that's going to dedicate their life sole to him. That just means that you love the dog so much, but you have it's a friend somebody that you trust who has three kids that really want this dog. I mean that could be amazing for Gusts and amazing for these kids. I said to him, I'm like, let me give you an analogy. This is like if

I if you bought my car off me. The whole time you're driving it, You're like, yeah, no, the car looks great. I trust you you're great. Three months maybe six months from now, car needs a new air filter and needs a new catalytic converter. You're calling me being like, dude, the car you sold me needs a new catalytic convert I'm like, look, Gus needs teeth extractions. He's a Yorki. They have teeth issues. He's had extractions. That's gonna be an issue. He's also twelve years old. Like you may

get three four years out of him. But like, while he's been in perfect health up until now, as is the case with human beings, you're gonna start to see more ailments in his later years in life. And if you're gonna be upset with me, that discussion, actually have that discussion laid out. This is what you're taking on when you take him. He's gonna say you sold me a lemon. No, he's gonna say, okay, I got it that. I agree. I shake your hand. As a friend. We're

taking this on. He's a member of my family. Do you but you're not even giving him that check? Do you want us? I would love to host us for like a weekend to help you and your I'm not a dog person I know write your letters in I'm not a dog person. You should be, I know, I think i'd be, Like I think you should take us for like a weekend. I'm not taking us. So where do you think let's wrap this up, buddy, where do you think all of this is going? Where? How are

you doing? Has this helped it at all? Like? What do you think your next step is? One? We got to get you a mattress that has to happen. Go home, take a knife to that blow up mattress. Stab that thing so you can't sleep on it. I think mouth stuff would do wonders for the both of you. I'm not kidding. I know I'm sounding funny, but like, I think you need a little time. Yeah, you may never see me again, and of you, this is my final farewell. Well at least you got to co host. Do you

feel better, America? Thank you for listening. It's been nice knowing you. I think we should do this again and a few months though, because I think things are going to be a lot better in a couple more months when the baby's sleeping. Yeah, I I agree. Once we get to the phase where he's sleeping through the night, which we were able to do at three and a half months with our first then we're in the clear.

If we could have our evenings, that's all. That's all I want is to be able to like put both kids down, go have a drink and talk about our day, watch Shark Tank, and go to bed. I love what he said. I love what Chris said. Is right when when you have that alone time with your partner that you don't talk about the kids and you don't work, that you like date each other again, I thought that

was brilliant. Um, what's look like from this whole discussion today, what's one thing you're going to take and go and implement or try and make a change in either your life individually or your relationship with your wife? Like is there anywhere where you've listened today and you're like, yeah,

it's two things. Two things. The first of which is Chris alluded to the fact that, um, I don't know exactly the worst he used, but basically that negativity is kind of like it gets negativity and it becomes a vicious cycle of sorts. And my wife and I actually this morning acknowledge that because it's become kind of like a competition for who's more miserable who who had to

deal with the worst amount of stuff. So, like the first thing in the morning, when I'm out there dead like chugging double espresso's making Jude's waffle, which I can only give him two days a week now because he expects a waffle every day and he loses his mind when he's not a waffle, which I'm losing my freaking mind at avocado toast this morning, didn't want to eat. It's like, well, I'm supposed to prove a point to you that you can't have a waffle every day. That's

your mom told me to do this anyway. Uh, the negativity is like my wife will come out and she just like it's like a it's a thing where she comes out and she's like, he was awake from two to six and I couldn't do this, and I'm exhausted, and I'm like, yeah, well I got out to do the bottle and he wouldn't drink the bottle and la da, and like now I gotta go to work and then I have this meeting today and that meeting, and so you're kind of like going back and forth being like

one upping each other for misery. And I think we need to make a conscious decision to be like and my wife said it to me, like, we have a short week in a holiday week. This week Christmas is coming out, my favorite holiday. Like let's just like go into it with a positive attitude and like deal with it and be happy and try to see the positive. You need to laugh a little and just laugh. If I were with funnier people and like yourself, I would

laugh more, but I'm not. The second thing was, truthfully, genuinely that I've taken from this is I I take some solace in knowing that Brooks you dealt with some of what I experienced when Julianne was going through I v F and that it's like I'm not on an island like this only person who feels that way. Because when I talked to Amy off the air as my pseudo shrink, she just tells me that makes me feel like I'm the only person who feels this way, So I don't do that. She then also denies doing it,

which is even worse. Um, nobody, You're not the only Wait, so you see how many people reach out to us. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to touch on You're not the only one going through this. For anybody that is listening to this, that can resonate with this, please reach out to us. Here's our phone number one eight three zero seven. I took my three nieces once, they were like five, three and one for like a week, and I actually understood what depression was like. I was

like this, I cannot do this. I was dirty, like the dirtiness, like I just had mac and cheese on my shirt, and it was just a big game of please don't die, Please don't die, Please don't choke, please don't die. I'm not doing anything great for any of you because my whole thing is just don't die, don't trip, don't fall, don't choke, don't punch her, don't die. I hate myself. I hate myself. I hate myself. We tried to see friends the other night and they're like, I

was crappy at my job. I was crappy as their aunt. I was just in a load of crap. Yeah, just and then I got to say bye bye. Um okay, so someone else's job not to kill you. So reach out to us. Let us know if you have any tips or even if you just resonate with Ryan's story that number again Zo seventy seven or men at I Heart Radio dot com is where you can reach us with email or always on Instagram at how Men Think podcast.

And if nothing good comes from this other than Casper and maybe Tito's Vodka coming to the forefront sponsorship wise, that would be really But before we go, can you give a little tease because next week I just want to let everyone know. Next week we are answering all your sex questions, like it is the sex episode to eat all sex episodes. Brooks has a tale to tell and we are going to reveal things. We're gonna reveal things that no one sees coming. Oh, Amy a mouth

stuff glore. I can't wait for you to reveal things. You have a story about mouth stuff Brooks. Huh now, but I will say you were talking about, um, we're talking about sex before and I was like I raised the topic or I don't know if I said it, but energetic sex, Oh yeah, tell them a little just give him a little bit, give me a little tantar kiss. So remember Jay, we all, I'll took the erotic blueprint. So having looked into that, some more energetic sex is

sex where there's no penetration involved. Yeah, it's like Sting does that. That's like a little different what Sting does. I don't know what Sting does. How come you guys know what Sting does? And because it's legendary, like everyone knows what Sting in his eighteen hours might be, like exaggerate, Okay, Sting is Tan Trick. Do you know the difference between

energy and tan trick? I don't know the difference, but I'm aware of both concepts, but just starting to like dive into this space and learn more about they should do energy? You know the difference energetic and tantric. I think so because I think energy is inappropriate. Oh god, HR, I'm losing HR doesn't apply, so it's fine, I am losing it. I think energy would be great for them though,

because there's no touching. I know. I'm glad that my friend Lisa's to two young boys here in the studio, teen and pre teen just walked in to hear this. But they know everything. They know everything, those two they're miming it right now. The teams in there no way more than us. But I think energy is barely touching, right, But tantrick involves touching. Okay, I don't know. Maybe we'll get into more of this next week, but I actually

can't wait waited for that. I bring your outpad, buddy. Well, dude, again, I just want to commend you for opening up sharing this. I undoubtedly know that this helped many people listening to this at home. So high five to you, buddy, Thank you. High five to you for co hosting your first podcast. Thank you nice knowing you. I appreciate everything. I've not received a check for a single episode yet, make sure

that goes to the estate. I just wanted you to know you who made eighty nine dollars in the last six months from this podcast. Go treat yourself, buddy, Go treat yourself a fresh new haircut or a little like shave or something with some lavender, something like that. Be glorious. I have a place I can see in you, buddy. I appreciate you, Amy as always, Gavin, Rick Dmitri. We miss you, brothers. But I'm excited to be here for the sex to conversation. Actually they'll be next week. This

is gonna mispering, I don't know, because trying to build suspense. Okay, that's it for now. Thank you. Everybody for listening. We alway appreciate you. If if you think this could this episode help a friend, please send it to a friend. Somebody that has young kids, please share it. Give us a review on iTunes, all that fun stuff so we

can keep doing. Yeah, give us the review. I hate Amy, I know, I'm learning to take it um Until next week, guys, take care of one another, love one another, and we'll see you right back here on How Men Think