Lululemon Athletica: Chip Wilson (2018)

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As for today's show, Chip Wilson is definitely the kind of entrepreneur who is very attentive to trends. And when he was living in Vancouver in the late 1990s, the trend he noticed was yoga. It seemed like everyone was getting into it. particularly women. So the story of Lululemon is a classic case of seeing an opportunity and just seizing on it. Right place, right time. But along the way, Chip also ran into some major problems, some of which...

he caused himself. It first ran in June of 2018. It's a super interesting story. Hope you enjoy it. Here it is. People were just naked in front of the store? Well, they showed up in their trench coats and, you know, we went out when we went to open the store. I went out with my wife and put my arm around her and then we... They always said thanks for coming and everyone dropped their trench coats and went running into the store.

From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, how Chip Wilson turned workout clothes into a fashion statement, and along the way, built a breakout brand worth billions. So it used to be that the clothes you wore to the gym were like the absolute worst clothes you owned.

You know, the ratty old t-shirt you got for free at some event. Sweatpants with your high school logo. You know, the kind of short shorts Dr. J would have worn on the basketball court. Anyway, most of this apparel was cotton-based. It was baggy. It didn't look so great. And honestly, nobody really cared. You had one job to do, which was to sweat at the gym. But at some point in the past 10 or 15 years...

All of that changed. Because suddenly, the clothes you wore to work out were also the clothes you could wear to the grocery store or at a restaurant or even at work. So for better or worse... People were wearing their gym clothes outside of the gym on purpose. In this trend, it was called athleisure. And Chip Wilson, he was one of its pioneers. The brand he built out of his house in Vancouver is now worth more than $14 billion.

Now, before I go on, let me just address the elephant in the room. Chip has said some things that are, well, how do I put this, rude and boorish. He's put his foot in his mouth on several occasions. He's embarrassed the company. And you will hear about some of that later on in the show. But he's also an open book and open to getting grilled all about his life. He's not a cautious, media-trained soundbites guy, which is in part what makes him interesting.

Because that's sort of how Chip grew up, without any pretension. Middle-class kid in Calgary, Canada. Chip was athletic. He played hockey and football. His dad taught phys ed at the local high school. And his mom? was a seamstress. She lived for it. It's where total passion was.

She tried to make clothing for the kids, but of course we never liked what she made for us. But, you know, if I wanted to spend time with my mom, it had to be at her foot in the sewing room. So did you learn how to sew, like, from an early age? Yeah, I can definitely sew. But more so, I think it was working with the Butterick Patterns and watching my mom...

lay them down on the fabric and then how she moved them and twisted them in order to save fabric. And I always say how important that is because once I got into big production and you'd lay 50 to 100 layers of fabric down, you can save even five, six, seven inches of fabric, it can mean thousands of dollars. Now, before Chip would go on to sew and design clothes for a living, he actually got his first real job.

at an oil company, working a grueling but incredibly lucrative job on the Alaska oil pipeline for almost two years. How much did you walk away with? How much cash? Well, interesting. In today's dollars, probably about $600,000. What? Back then, it was about $175,000 American. That was amazing. Amazing. You were like 19. You were just given this cash, and that's simply because there was all of this money to work on the Alaska oil pipeline, I guess.

Right. And, you know, but I gave, you know, I traded my life in for money. I mean, there was no girls, there was, you know, nothing there except for, you know, your work. I always wonder, you know, if everyone got that opportunity, would they have made the same thing out of it I did? That's pretty good. You're 18 or 19 or 20 with a bunch of cash. So what did you do with the money? Well, I'd always had...

Three goals in Alaska. One was to own my own house by the age of 20, to be in my own business by the age of 30, and retired by 40. And retirement meaning that I was doing exactly what I wanted to do. So I did. I bought a house and then I finished up my degree and I worked for an oil company. And this is an oil company back in Calgary, right? Because you moved back there at some point. Right. And I guess in like the late 70s, right?

Pretty much around the time you graduate college, you start to make shorts, like baggy shorts for men. Yeah, because I didn't, you know, have to get what it was like at that time. Men wore very short shorts that were very, very tight. You know, you only have to look at movies from the late 70s to get that kind of picture. And they made a lot of sense to me because...

I had very big legs, and I think because I was working out three times a day, I was always in a constant sweat. And the idea of wearing shorts full-time was very appealing to me. Yeah. And these were like flowers? printed like loud Hawaiian, like I don't know if you've been to Trader Joe's, like those shirts, like that's what the shorts looked like? Yeah, exactly. But, you know, you have to see it in a context that there was nothing like that before. Everything else was that era of...

Brown, rust, off-color okra, yellow, like solid colors. There was no brightness in the world at all that time. So that was a radical look. So I started... Because I couldn't get loud flowered prints in 2,000 meters, which is kind of what a person needs to go into business, I started doing what my mom did. She quilted fabric. So I would get masses of different types of patterns of fabric, and then I...

I would cut them into squares and then I would quilt them. And then in order to keep the stability of that, I put a backing on it, a black fabric, and then I realized I had reversible shorts. So normally were they long and baggy and reversible. They just really revolutionized shorts. And then the skateboarders started taking them on because it kind of covered their knees. How did they even know about them? Did you start to sell them somewhere?

Well, I mean, that's the invention of vertical retailing because I made about 300 pairs of the shorts up in 1980 and I went to the big department stores here in Canada and they would have nothing to do with them. So I had my first inman. inventory problem. So I thought, well, what am I going to do? So I basically set up a lemonade stand for the shorts. Where? In Calgary? In the downtown mall in Calgary. And I had a partner girlfriend at the time. And so we did that together. And, you know, we...

You know, we'd lay all these shorts out, and in a day we'd make like $1,000 a day selling the shorts, and I was making like $120 at the oil company. It wasn't tough to figure out the math of that. And these were not swimming shorts. These were just like, who would wear these shorts? What would you be doing while wearing these shorts? Well, these particular shorts, you know, I couldn't really...

It was tough in the oil business of conservative Calgary where people wear Prata suits and cowboy boots to sell them on loud, baggy shorts. And so... Um, I originally called them barbecue shorts because I needed to give men needed an excuse to wear them. I knew they wanted to wear them, but as you know, a couple of years went on, that's again, that's when the skateboarding market took over from the surf market and the. young boys, you know, like 10 to 18 started wearing them. So this is 1980.

You've got barbecue shorts. By the way, the barbecue season in Calgary has to be really short, like a couple weeks. Yeah, 40 days next. 40 days. You've got 40 days to wear these shorts in Calgary. I mean, not a brilliant marketing move. But it worked. People were like, all right, barbecue. And so 1980 and then – but it's the same time you were still working for this oil company on the side or you were doing this on the side. And how long before you quit the oil company?

Well, I had my goal of quitting being in my own business by 30. So I worked through a little company for five years and quit on my birthday. Your 30th birthday. Exactly. Did you create a brand around? Around the barbecue shorts? Yeah, I called it West Beach, which at the time was, I think it's probably from being in San Diego when I was young and probably the incredible feeling I had from living on the beach every day. When you were a little kid.

Yeah, when I was a little kid and being in Calgary, I always wanted to get back to the beach. I always wanted to get back to the West Coast. I think that's where I felt best. So that was the brand I built up around it. And so initially your customers were in Calgary, but how did you get... the word out around Canada and beyond well I went to Canada was pretty easy because you know that

I got into it almost a decade before anybody else, I think. And so I could slowly kind of move across like that. We opened up a store in Toronto. But then I went to a trade show in Singapore and then another one in Munich. And so, you know, when a person kind of comes out with something that's so different like that, that, you know, there's a lot of interest in it. And then I had this sense looking five years in the future that.

The skateboarding and surf markets were going to be huge. And by the sort of that time, the mid to late 80s, what were you selling? Well... I mean, the beautiful thing is when I formed a partnership with my two guys in Vancouver, I moved to Vancouver. And then in, I'd say, starting in 83 in Calgary, I'd started to do snowboarding. And I could see snowboarding coming. And snowboarding was going to be way bigger than surf or skate.

And I didn't care about the boards and the boots and the bindings because for me that was low margin hard goods where I knew all the money was to be made in the clothing. especially for us because it would take up the other eight months of the year, which we weren't really selling very much. And snowboard clothing was four or five times the price of surf and skate T-shirts and shorts. And who was designing the apparel that West Beach was selling? Well, I was. That was my thing.

If I look back at it now, I never had any money for clothing when I was young. I probably had a genetic desire for the kind of ideas that I had. I think part of it was... you know my size and i think part of it was i wanted athletic clothing that actually fit me so i think i was driven through both those Where are you making the stuff, by the way? Where's the clothing being made at that point? Well, I'm making it in Calgary. I found some Italian couture designers that were...

You know, again, just like my mother, they were at home and they weren't working and they were amazing. So we set up a factory. And so if you can imagine, almost everybody else in the apparel industry, I think everybody else basically made clothing and then wholesaled it to somebody else.

Not only was I doing my own manufacturing, but I owned my own stores. So I was basically taking the profit of two middlemen out of the business. But, you know, the big revenue part of the business was in wholesale. But my wholesale business was losing a million dollars a year. And then I had these two retail stores that were making a million dollars a year. Wait, wait, explain this to me because you have these retail stores and they were doing well, but you...

You also had a wholesale business, which was losing money? Well, it was a quandary because I needed the volume from wholesale to get to economy of scale production to bring my prices down. Because my prices were down, my retail stores could make so much money. But I couldn't really make any money in wholesale because if I made something for $20, then I would have to sell it to Dick's Sporting Goods.

for $40 and then they would sell it for $80. Where in my own retail stores, then I was putting it in there for $20 and making $80. So there was a $60 profit in there. And so I kept thinking to myself, how can I... get to economy scale production. And that was the big, big driver. And were you, I mean, what was your vision? Did you think this is going to, we're going to take on, we're going to be the biggest snowboard apparel company in the world?

Sure. I mean, Japan had just exploded. So it was about 30% of all snowboarders' business. And the drive to grow and to grow fast, knowing that... what I'd seen in surf and skate, where it started off with three companies, went to 500, and then went down to three again. I knew the same thing was going to happen in snowboarding.

When's the right time to get in? What's the right time to build? What's the right time to invest? And when to get out was always in the back of my mind. And sure enough, you know, probably in 96, six or so the japanese yen started to collapse so we're starting to think that snowboarding wasn't the cool thing to do anymore and so the market was changing drastically and we still weren't making any money because we were just reinvesting just to keep on top of the competition. So you decide to sell.

Well, yes. And we sold to a public company out of Salem, Oregon, Morrill Snowboards. And, you know, we... quite honestly, could not make payroll on Friday, and we sold Wednesday based on brand value only. Wow. You probably walked away with a good chunk of cash. Well, I had... partners and I had banks and I had private equity in there at that time. So I walked away with a million and after tax, 800,000. And then you've got to, you know, I had paid myself probably 30 to $40,000.

18 years. You didn't walk away with a whole lot. No, I needed a car and I needed to buy a house of some sort, which was the best thing I ever did living in Vancouver. Okay, so here you are. in your early 40s, and, like, I mean, what were you going to do?

Well, actually, my goal was to be financially independent by 40. So I failed in that goal. And, you know, I was thinking about what I wanted to do. And then I had this thing. I have always believed in this three times thing. So when I see. something three times and I move and I move really quickly. So I'd seen an article in the paper about yoga. I'd seen a poster on a telephone post with a little ripoff about the yoga class.

I overheard a conversation in a coffee shop about yoga and I went, wow. So I went to this yoga class. It went from about six to 30 people in 30 days. I was the only guy in the class. it's in a gym and you know of course I'm always noticing athletic bodies and clothing and how it fits I mean I'm really a big data guy around. You know, I look at everybody top to bottom and I analyze it.

At the time, the fashion of gyms was to wear your very worst clothing. And mostly because probably 90% of people in gyms were men. And, you know, you knew you were going to sweat in it, you were going to get ugly in it, and you just wanted to throw it in the wash afterwards. So nobody thought about athletic clothing being nice. So just to get inside your head here, you're in this yoga class.

And you are observing what everyone's wearing. You must have been thinking already, I have a business idea. When did you start to... add two and two and say, wait a minute, I can make this type of clothing. Like, how do you go from one yoga class to that thought? Was it instant? Did it take a week? Did it take a month? Well, I wasn't doing anything. And I think I was looking for what my life was going to be. And so...

What I saw in yoga was exactly the same thing I saw in surfskate snowboarding. So, like I said, it went from six to 30 people in 30 days, and I extrapolated out to five years away, and I went, this is going to be... substantial. Now, I didn't think it was going to be as big as surfskate or snowboarding, and I had really no idea at the time it would be 100 times bigger. It's a big deal, right? This is like you're spotting a trend.

like really early in 1997. And you probably can't fully explain why you were able to see that trend. But it was just this like intrinsic feeling you had. You just... A part of you just knew that this was going to be a thing? Yeah. Again, I was extrapolating. But you also have to get as probably the only person in the world thinking about technical clothing outside of mountain clothing.

So, you know, the real question in my mind is, do I use this or do I just say, you know, I called my 18 years at West Beach, my 18 year MBA. And so... You know, do I just leave all that information behind or do I say, you know, I've got something here and it's, and it's worth using. After the break, how Chip Wilson eventually used that 18-year MBA to graduate to an even bigger business, a business that would change the athletic apparel industry forever.

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Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. So after attending his first yoga class in Vancouver in the late 1990s, Chip Wilson had this idea for his next clothing company. But it actually took him a while before he acted on it. Yeah. I had to read an article in the paper one day that told me that 60% of the graduates at a university were women in 1998.

And I went, wow, you know, something really, really big is going to come out of this. And that is we're going to end up with a market that's never occurred before. And that is a 22 to 35 year old. single, professional, well-traveled, stylish, athletic woman who kind of owns her own condo and that. So when I kind of put these things together and...

I think that it just reinforced that this market was there and ready for something big, especially in athletic clothing. So what did you do? Did you... Did you run back from that yoga class and go back to your house or wherever you were living and start to sketch out ideas? Yeah, there was a little bit of that. And I talked to, of course, Fiona Stang, who was my yoga instructor.

kind of dropped out of the New York financial world to become a yoga instructor in Vancouver. And like I did in surf, skate, and snowboarding, I started to use her as a sounding board and as a... creative source because unlike surf, skate and snowboarding, where I was a boy and I could fit in the clothing, I knew exactly what was going on. I obviously wasn't a woman.

And I could see that yoga at that time anyway, it was 99% women. And if I was going to do this and I was going to transfer my knowledge of what I'd learned in snowboarding Lycra stretch pants into yoga, then I needed some advice. All right. So you had...

some money to play with from the sale of your other company. And you knew how to sew, of course, and you knew how to source material. So what was your first move in starting the business? Well, one of my... big issues in life has always been about rashing of clothing and i could never really believe that and well nike was a shoe company so i know they didn't really understand clothing either because even in their running shorts they had these open seams in between

their legs and I'd run 5k and I'd totally rash so for me it was like solving athletic problems I went to Japan, I'd heard about these machines that were $40,000 a piece, which was huge at the time, and I bought four of them. A machine to do what? They were flat seams, so it was the first time you could put two pieces of fabric together and the machine would flat seam the fabrics together and then cut off any excess fabric so that there was nothing flapping around on the inside.

So the idea was to basically make athletic wear that would eliminate rashes? Yes, and when I was running 10Ks or triathlons... The rashing was the thing that was always the pain point of what I'd call high-level athletics. And again, because I became a fabric scientist of sorts,

I could bring in the wicking, the moisture wicking. I could bring in the anti-stink. I could make it thick enough where it would smooth over a girl's body so she could feel comfortable wearing it, getting up in the morning, putting it on at work, and then... walking down to the yoga class and then walking home. And was the idea to just make athletic gear or yoga clothes or was it to make a fashionable apparel?

Well, I think I was just the right person to be putting, like I said, the two together. And my drive and what differentiated Lou Lemon from everybody else is I came at it from function and then put fashion into it. All right, let's do a reality check here for a sec. It's 98. You don't have a lot of money. You take a pretty big bet. You pretty much bet everything you had. Right.

Why? Why were you so confident this was going to work? I think because when I started to do my first design meetings with these 10 groups of 10 women, and we had like five or six samples and they touched the fabric and they put it on it was the first time that really a synthetic fabric felt like cotton. There was nothing like it. It was just nothing like it. So I think that...

Looking in the eyes of the consumer, I could tell that this was something that was going to be unbelievable. All right, so you bet everything on this, and then you open a store, right?

Yeah, but it's, you know, I can only get a store on the second floor in the right area on the right street in Vancouver, which has probably got more athletic stores than any place in the world.

because of the type of environment we have. But I can't, you know, it's really hard to get people up to the top floor. So the only way I can, I figure out how to do it is to... is to combine my business with Fiona Stang, my yoga teachers, and I had all my clothing on rolling racks and we'd move it all out to the side and have yoga classes there early in the morning and then at night.

That would bring women into yoga, but also see what our clothing was, and then it kind of moved from there. So your first store was essentially a yoga studio with like a boutique inside. Correct. Okay, so you have... You have this company, which you decide to call Lululemon. By the way, where did that name come from? Yeah, I probably get asked this once a day.

When I had West Beach, I had bought a skateboard brand called Homeless. And with Homeless, I started to sell that to the Europeans and the Japanese. And it started to occur to me that the five big trading companies in Japan were making North American brand name clothing. In other words, they would come up with their own brand name in order to deliver that to the Japanese customer.

But Japanese, those big trading companies would never come up with a name with an L on it because it doesn't exist in the Japanese language. And so what I got was that the young kids... could see through that and they went a name with an l in it is more authentic north american it's not like a japanese knockoff so it had real value to them so

I started to go, oh, that's really a neat idea. So over the next couple of years, I just started doing alliterations in my mind and with L's. But it was a pretty risky name at the time because Lemon was really connected with... Really bad quality Detroit cars. Yeah, right, a lemon, yeah. But I actually came up with about 20 names and 20 logos. What were some of the other names? Well, the only one I can remember right now is called Athletically Hip. Ugh. What a horrible name.

Well, that's what the girls thought, too, because I had 10 focus groups of 10 people, and I had them vote on the names and the logos, and they came up. with the name Lou Lemon, but the logo actually came from Athletically Hip. So it was a stylized A from The Athletic. So here's a question for you, Chip, because I'm curious. I'm a, as you know... a man like you and you you are selling a product primarily to women in a

You know, a sport that yoga or an exercise that you weren't really an expert in. You were not like some yogi guru. You weren't. You're a big guy. You're like a football player type of guy. And yet you were. Trying to create a market and sell a product to young women. How did you do it? Did you sort of step back and have... Other women kind of sell the product for you? Yeah, I mean, I had...

In between West Beach and Lululemon, I'd really decided that I only wanted to work with people I loved to work with. And so I was really determined to develop people, to train them, to mentor them, and then get out of the way. And as I... Was running out of my money for my second time. I had taken another $200,000 loan. Wait, because the first time you ran out of money, you were running West Beach, right? Right. And I got West Beach, my old company, moved back from...

from Salem to Vancouver, and they asked me to run it. And it was like a gift out of heaven because I was... We were really low on money. I didn't want to advertise. I wanted word of mouth of the quality of our clothing to be the branding niche because I really did believe in the tipping point and it had to come from people. It couldn't come from advertising. So I was, again, another incredibly lucky thing. I hired this woman who, Shannon Gray was her name.

The first person I'd ever seen that had a design portfolio with using stretch clothing. And within about two weeks, after hiring her, I left her in charge of Lou Lemon as the CEO for a year, and I went back and ran West Beach. And that's how you were able to make some cash.

That's how I was able to make more cash. Exactly. And so we should foreshadow. There's a foreshadowing here that Shannon eventually becomes your wife. You're now married to Shannon. She's your wife. So Lululemon really launched. which is in 98 in this neighborhood in Vancouver. And does it take off right away? Is it just like insane or was it a slow burn? It was very slow burn. And then it was so slow that even when I left for...

to run West Beach. We were running out of money. I had a lot of inventory because I needed to make at least five to 600 of every of our six styles in order to get the price down. So I fell into the trap of wholesaling. And so I made a big deal to wholesale to a sporting goods company. Vancouver and I shipped to them and they immediately went bankrupt. So that really took the company to the very edge. We had no money to pay payroll again. I was only a couple of weeks away from the end of it.

just decided to move across the street from our second floor into a store on the main floor on 4th Avenue at $10 a square foot because it was an old beat-up electronics store. And then another thing from heaven came, and it was they fired me at West Beach. Well, and I use that loosely, but they combined with Sim Skateboards, and the CEO of Sim Skateboards became the CEO, so they let me go.

go with a severance fee of $50,000. And if it wasn't for that $50,000, we never would have been able to finish our store. Wow. Just before Christmas time. This is in 2000? Yeah, this is in 2000. And even though we had this great... yoga pant and tops Shannon had to design this polar fleece bra which got into the newspaper and brought everybody into the store and of course while they were there they they mostly bought the yoga pants because they could you know we were in a

position then to educate people on the technical features of our pant. And once we had somebody in them, they were a customer for life. And if you were taking a yoga class in Vancouver at that time, presumably you would have seen... The label, because the label was like right on the outside of the waistband, right? Yeah, I put it there because I was very clear that I didn't want big logoing. And I thought that somebody should look in the mirror and not see any logos.

And I definitely didn't like logos on the left breast because I looked at it as being kind of corporate logoing. You know, it's always there on the left chest. So... I decided I wanted the logo small. I wanted it to be discreet and in a place that nobody could see. So you, I guess around 2002, you opened your first store outside of Vancouver. This is in Toronto.

Or Toronto, as they say in Toronto. Yeah, so we had, in my second floor, you know, in Vancouver was really a pop-up store, you know, where people had to really look and find it. We did the same thing in Toronto almost a year before we opened the store. were there and it was we got a way of developing the marketplace which became a Lululemon business model so

We would go into every city in the future, set up a store in a back alley or in a side street, and develop our market, invite yoga instructors in before we spent, you know, $600 to $1 million on a store. And, you know, again, created word of mouth. which was, you know, my favorite type of marketing is break even marketing because I never had any money for marketing. So that was a given.

Well, you did. I mean, you guys did some stunts, right? Like when you opened your shop in Vancouver, you said the first 30 people who show up naked get a free outfit. Well, it was worse than that. I actually put my first ad in as anyone that shows up gets a free outfit.

fit. And then I realized I was in Vancouver and I was going to get every person in the whole city would show up naked. So I couldn't really do that. So I had to put another ad in a week later saying the first 30. And did that happen? Oh, yeah. And it created global... media, everybody showed up. There was TV trucks all up and down the street.

People were just naked in front of the store? Well, they showed up. It was October morning. You probably never heard this about Vancouver. It was overcast and drizzly. You know, they all showed up in their trench coats.

and then you know we went out when we went to open the store i went out with my wife and put my arm around her and then we um we said thanks for coming and everyone dropped their trench coats and went running into the store this is and like nobody nobody was arrested because like this is not normally allowed in most uh cities

Well, especially in 2002, but I think it's part of the culture here, and there's lots of nude beaches, so I don't think it was out of the realm for Vancouverites. I'm very proud of our city and our police for... for stepping back and just observing. So around 2002, Lululemon really starts to grow. Like 2003, you opened your first store in the U.S. in Santa Monica, which obviously you chose that because that was sort of the center of the...

yoga culture in the u.s i guess yeah i think probably the big thing that happened after we opened up toronto and the second store in vancouver is um You know, I asked my lovely wife to marry me. She said yes. And so it was April 20th, Saturday, when we were to get married. And I'm working in the store. And really, I became almost a traffic cop because the number...

of people coming in the store was something they would never seen before. I think it went from a $10,000 Saturday to a $30,000 Saturday. So obviously... Like, you've got a store in Toronto, you've got one in Santa Monica, and then I guess your next stop was Melbourne, Australia. You're growing fast. But you still – I'm assuming you didn't have enough cash flow to really scale the business at that point.

Well, I only after that, we started making a lot of money. And I don't just don't mean a little bit of money. I mean, a lot of money. I mean, you have to understand that, again, that nobody in the world had. was owning manufacturing right to the retail store. I mean, I was taking triple the profit of most people. But I mean, I guess it was 2005 that you went out and sought outside investors.

Who then – because at that point, you'd owned 100 percent of the company. So you sold, I guess, about half of the company and then stepped down as a CEO. Why did you do that? Was that the only way you could expand and scale? No, no. I mean, because I had built retail stores around the world. I'd done global manufacturing. I mean...

Honest to God, I could have done it all. But even though it was making so much money, I'd never taken any money out. My wife and I, neither of us came from money, and we were always scared. You know, we were scared that an earthquake would hit or, you know, like this seems really good, but is it true? Is it happening? We'd have to pinch ourselves every morning. Yeah. And then, and I wanted advisors. I wanted people around me that could make sure that I wasn't.

going to run into roadblocks. Okay. So you've sold about half the company to private investors. A new CEO comes in. You stay on as chairman. And then I guess you become like... chief innovation officer at this point, right? Right. And it allowed me to sit in the middle of the design department. which is my love is innovation and quality and athletics. So, I mean, that's where I really flourished. And I hadn't developed as a chairman. I didn't understand public boards. I didn't understand...

how to act or be. I mean, I think people think, oh, you know, I ended up with a lot of money. You know, Chip Wilson's a businessman, but nothing really could have been further from the truth. Just a passionate product guy. So it's interesting because even though you are still the biggest shareholder, you all of a sudden had outside investors who came in.

and had their ideas for how this company should be run. So I have to imagine starting in 2005, even though you're no longer CEO, there was some tension that begins. Yes, I think my mistake happened when I was at West Beach and I brought in private equity. We had a board of directors, but they had no vested interest. They were there to help us out and they were wonderful. So I had this context of my mind that...

bringing in private equity and having a group of like really great advisors with me where we're all on the same page and moving in the same direction was going to be another wonderful experience. Yeah. But it wasn't. You know, it's my own fault. I mean, the private equity, they're there to make money for their investors. And I had a very long-term vision for Lou Lemon, and they had quite a short-term vision for Lou Lemon.

So we went – we ended up going public way too quickly. Right. But when you guys went public like in 2007, this was a hot stock. Right. Yeah. And you actually – sold a chunk of stock pretty early on, right? Yeah, you know, again, you know, I had advisors that were just giving me advice that was good for them and not necessarily for me.

You know, I really only wanted to sell 30% of the stock to the private equity guys, but I ended up selling 48. So I lost control of the board seats and I didn't know how to negotiate for them. So that is important because as we go public then, you know,

the advice I got was, hey, Chip, you should sell more of your shares in the marketplace because the more shares that are out there, the more the institutional investors will be able to get a good chunk of it and be able to hold it for a long time. But the reality of it is all these were techniques to have kind of an owner-founder dissipate and kind of move into the background and not have the power, so to speak, to control a board.

And that's really what I lost, and it's my own fault, but that's what I ended up with. But this company just, like, took off, right? I mean, through the early 2000s and to the 2000s, and then... It just, it was on fire, right? I mean, Lululemon was everywhere and is today. But I mean, that, despite the challenges that you faced, it did. explode in growth. You gotta admit that, right?

Oh, it was unbelievable. I mean, you know, okay, so things happened to me, big deal. I mean, definitely, I probably have a long-term vision for my family, and I had a long-term vision for Lou Lemon, and, you know, and those things never kind of worked.

out perfectly. But all in all, I mean, you'd have to admit that what occurred and what has happened has made me incredibly happy and incredibly wealthy. So in 2011, Lululemon, a U-land... on the list of Canada's billionaires, which, I mean, means you achieved your goal, financial security and more.

Was that like a marker for you? Was that important for you? Or did you think – did you not really care? I could – I really didn't care because I – again, my drives were family and my absolute – passion for athletic clothing and I think my wife and I again we're just always so scared of losing it all you know like we could still go to you know

the store and only buy one tube of toothpaste. You know, we couldn't see ourselves buying three, you know, to save time. I could do it in my business, but I couldn't do it at home.

All right, so let's address the one elephant that everyone I say – Chip Wilson is going to be on the show. Everyone says, that guy? Didn't he once say – and this is the – let's just give the outline of the story. 2013, Lululemon has to recall. Certain pants because there were concerns that they were too sheer, that they were see-through. And in an interview you gave offhand, you said, you know, look, some of these pants just don't look good on all women's bodies. Something to that effect.

This caused an enormous uproar, like essentially the interpretation of it was that you were saying overweight women shouldn't wear Lululemon pants. What happened? What's your take on what happened? Well, I think you have to go back and to the end of 2012. I mean, I was quite frustrated with the board. I think that, you know, the board and I didn't see eye to eye on how the company was being run.

And then there was everything kind of, I said what happened did happen. There was a huge quality issue. So I went on this program on, I think it was NBC. I think it was Bloomberg. Bloomberg, yes. Bloomberg, yeah. Thank you. And I did know from working in the stores that there was definitely something happening to our clothing.

And I didn't know what. Anyway, the question was really about the pilling. And I said, well, what I always said. Like pilling when friction happens, the fabric pills. Right. Okay. What was, you know, you've done that. interview with Blakely on Spanx. So suddenly women were coming into the store and not wanting Lou Lemon for athletics. They were coming in looking for it to shape their bodies. But the sewing technique and the fabric wasn't meant for it.

So what they were doing is buying two to four sizes smaller than what their size was in order to get out of the garment what it wasn't made for. So... When you stretch anything to a limit and then you sit on a wooden bench or something like that, then pilling occurs to a greater extent. Anyway, but I didn't know that until afterwards. I hadn't really put two to two together. I didn't realize what a big issue it was. And the words that I said were not...

all women, I think something, all women belong in every pair of Lula. You said, quite frankly, some women's bodies just don't. just actually don't work for Lululemon pants. Yeah, which is a lot different than what you said. Which is that a lot of people thought you said that overweight women shouldn't wear Lululemon pants. Yeah. I mean, what you said is what I think people hear. which is a lot different than what I said, just so we're there. Did you get depressed?

Yeah, I'd have to say I was because, you know, then the board took me off as chairman because they felt like I wasn't the right front man for the company anymore and I was a liability to Lou Lemon. I mean, this is, you know, after... 30 years of doing, you know, thousands of public interviews. And, you know, I say one thing and suddenly I'm a liability.

So how did you kind of – I don't know. Did you think about that? I mean I take your point that you feel like you were misunderstood and that that wasn't your intention. But whatever happened – That's what came out, and that was how it was interpreted. And did you have some time to reflect on it and to think, that was just dumb? Well, it was a poor choice of words.

It was absolutely devastating to me. It was devastating to my family. I mean, people would come up to my wife and go, how can you be with a man like that that would say that type of thing? But more so it was the antithesis of everything I had built, you know, with woman and for woman for Lou Lemon. It was the very opposite. But...

Yes, if I could take it back, I certainly would. Is it strange? I've asked this question of other founders, Chip. Is it strange? To build a company, put your blood, sweat, and tears in something that people Don't pay attention to for a long time. And all of a sudden, everyone jumps on it when it starts to take off. You know, right. Success has a million fathers and failure is an orphan. Right. So all of a sudden.

And your company, this thing you built, your idea, the name, the product, and then you're no longer in control. Is that weird? Yeah. My vision for Lululemon and what it could have been is not everything that I think it can be. And, you know, life is all about how you handle setbacks. And I think Lululemon still, I'm the most informed cheerleader. And I think it has, you know, a great future. Do you have another business in you? Well, what I learned is that...

When I left Lululemon, even though it was maybe $2 billion in sales at the time, my brain was on Lululemon being $7-8 billion. And I'd worked so hard building a company like... by brick by brick that it was, I don't think I can go back and, and be a starter of a company at the age 62 anymore. And, uh, I'm probably got too good a life to want to do that again. And, um,

My absolute favorite thing I do is I've got 12-year-olds, twin boys, and I'm coaching flag football. And nothing could be more fun. Nothing could be more fun. Chip, you've heard the show before. How much of your success is because of your intelligence and work and how much of it is because you were really lucky? I think I was pure passion.

for athletic technical product. And I would have worked 18 hours a day for the rest of my life for no money. Now, I think what happened is I got lucky because my Drive and passion met a world that wanted what I wanted. And that was the lucky part. That's Chip Wilson, founder of Lululemon.

Last year, the company made over $3.5 billion. Chip hasn't been with Lululemon since 2015, but he's been staying pretty busy as the executive director of his family's holding company called Hold It All Incorporated. Now a quick break from one of our sponsors, Vital Proteins.

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Hey, thanks for sticking around because it's time now for How You Built That. And today we're checking back on a story that ran about a year ago, but started in 2016, right outside of Boston with Kate Westervelt. Waddling around Target. Waddling around Target because she'd just been released from the hospital where she'd given birth to a nine and a half pound baby boy. So...

Kate was sore, and she had stitches, and she wasn't really up for a target run. Now, the thing you should know about Kate is that she's kind of a planner, so she'd already fully stocked her nursery with everything she thought the baby would need. diapers and wipes and clothing, but she didn't really give much thought to the things that she might need after her baby was born. The nurses walked in with things like mesh underwear and these ginormous pads.

ice packs and a squeeze bottle to help keep her stitches clean, all stuff she needed for her recovery, but stuff Kate didn't have at home. So on the way home from the hospital, while her husband and new baby waited in the car she went shopping and she felt kind of clueless I got

a bunch of different breastfeeding aids, you know, organic pads, synthetic pads, whatever I could get my hands on because I was just desperate and in dire need of any help and all help. And I knew I wouldn't be able to get to the store again in the next couple of days. Kate left the store totally overwhelmed, but she also left with an idea. We live in a convenience economy. We get razors delivered, groceries delivered. Everything is delivered. How are we not providing this convenience?

for new moms who need it the most. And as soon as she got back in the car, Kate thought, I'm going to go build this thing. She meant a box filled with products a new mom would need. A box delivered right to her door. She kept thinking about this idea during her leave. So after she went back to her 9-to-5 job, Kate decided to start working on it at night.

I would order various products, then I would test them all. Maternity pads, creams, protein bars, herbal supplements. Kate tried more than 400 products over the course of a year. And eventually, she settled on a set of 10... items to go into her first boxes and the one product her test moms really liked

an ice pack. At the hospital, they give you just bags of ice and they sort of stick them in your underwear and say, good luck. So Kate found the perfect ice pack, sized and shaped, so new moms could walk around. But there were some women who told her, you know, this ice pack is great, but... I ended up with a C-section and what I really needed was a heating pad to place on my belly or some sort of oil for my scar and my incision line. So Kate decided, hey,

Maybe I should curate a C-section recovery box. She went on to put up a website and build a social media following on Facebook and Instagram. 60% of moms mom source across the internet. And so moms started to talk about this box. And in January of 2018, nearly two years after her frustrating Target run, Kate sold her first box. It was designed to look just like a present.

It's pink and glossy. And we sort of thought, you know, let's put a handle on this box because it makes it feel like a special arrival, like a special trunk filled with self-care items. In her first year, Kate actually sold almost $5. hundred boxes, all assembled and packed in a room above her garage. Since we last spoke to her, Kate hit six figures in revenue and is out of debt. Not only that, but she's now on contract with some pretty big companies to send her box as a gift.

to their employees. Kind of like a congratulations for becoming a new parent, but much more useful than flowers or a card. Kate Westervelt's business is called MomBox, and if you want to find out more about it or hear previous episodes, Head to our podcast page, howibuiltthis.npr.org. And of course, if you want to tell us your story.

go to build.npr.org. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe at Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please do give us a review. You can also write to us at hibt at npr.org. And if you want to send a tweet, it's at How I Built This or at Guy Raz. Our show was produced this week by Janae West with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. Thanks also to Sequoia Carrillo,

Candice Lim, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Rainey Toll. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR. LifeKit is like your friend with really good advice. So... Can I really be truthful? It's just me and you, right? Well, sure. Let's say it is. Three times a week, Life Kit is in your feeds with episodes on health, personal finance, personal growth, and so much more. Listen to Life Kit from NPR.

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Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. And now, a next-level moment from AT&T Business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows, and they need to be there in time for International Sleep Day. You've got AT&T 5G, so you're fully confident. But the vendor isn't responding, and International Sleep Day is tomorrow.

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