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Klaviyo helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform featuring email, SMS, reviews, and more. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at KL. A-V-I-Y-O dot com. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you.
And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of. and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it.
Joining me this week is Steve Case. He's the co-founder of one of the first major internet service providers, America Online, better known as AOL. Of course, Steve, welcome back to the show. Great to see you again. You too. You were on the show originally in the early days, 2017. An awesome episode. We're going to put a link to that episode in the podcast description. And just to remind listeners.
Steve, you grew up in Hawaii, and then you went to college on the East Coast and then went into marketing for a while and consulting. And you ended up working on a product that let you download like Atari games to a telephone line, right? Yeah, back in 1983, so more than four decades ago. It was almost like an in-home arcade, like a Netflix streaming world now. You could download those video games.
It didn't really work out, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. It didn't work out, but then in 85, you helped found another company called Quantum Computer Services, which later, of course, became... America Online, and you became the CEO. And really, I mean, for so many people listening, myself included, I mean, it's the first time people had access to the internet. We'd get these CDs in the mail, and you would be online in no time. was the first internet company to go public.
And eventually there was a merger with Time Warner and AOL. You left after that and then started a new chapter in your life, which has been arguably for you as important and maybe more. You started an investment. You're still the CEO today. A lot of brands I know we've had on the show you guys have actually invested in, right? Absolutely. It's been a great journey shifting from being an entrepreneur to being an investor and mentor and kind of champion cheerleader for.
the next generation of entrepreneurs. And we started this effort a decade ago when we launched Rise of the Rest, started doing bus tours around the country, then launched an investment fund, which made now 200 investments in 100 different cities in what we call Rise of the Rest cities, which we define.
is outside of the major tech hubs, San Francisco, New York, and Boston. So I think we are making progress. I think people growing up in other parts of the country feel like they have to leave where they are and go someplace else. And so that does create a magnet for talent in places like Silicon Valley.
Valley. It also, unfortunately, hollows out some of the rest of our communities and over time has a negative impact on our country. So I think we have to reverse this. We have to make sure people are able to start and scale companies no matter where they choose to live and don't feel like they have to.
move to one of the coastal tech cities to really have a shot at building a company, a shot at the American dream. Yeah. I mean, we've been hearing about these shifts for a while. And look, it'll be interesting to see what happens. I'm curious to get your take on... What do you think it takes today to start a tech company? I mean, and how does that compare to when you first started? Well, it's obviously, as you say.
Very different. When we first started, only 3% of people were online and those 3% were online an average of one hour a week. So for us, it was about. evangelizing the idea of being online, the idea of the internet. And it took us, frankly, a decade before we finally broke through. And so I'm sympathetic, empathetic to the entrepreneurs who are fighting that battle. I think the good news now is that everybody's... connected to bad news.
is everybody's connected and everybody's able to launch businesses. So it becomes more challenging to win the battle for attention. In the early days, it was, can you build it? Now it's really much more, can you commercialize it? Can you break through? And for a growing number of companies.
Also, can you navigate some of the policy challenges, some of the regulatory issues in areas like health care or food and agriculture or financial services? That's another aspect that is different now than it was back then. On one hand, the barrier to entry is much. lower, like you don't need as much money necessarily to start. But as you say, as a result of that, there's just so much more competition, it's just so much harder to get attention on what you're building.
Yeah, exactly. In the early days when we got started and AOL was started, as you mentioned, in 1985, it was really, can you raise the money to get launched? And not that many people could. There was only a handful of maybe less than a dozen venture capitalists back then. backing less than 100 companies. So just...
breaking through there. It's almost like getting signed by a record label or somebody. That was the first step. And then you had to get in the market and actually be successful with your product or service or technology. Now it's much easier, as you say, to get started. The barriers entry are much lower.
which is a great thing. And it does help democratize entrepreneurship, give more people the opportunity to start and build companies, which I think is really, really terrific. But in almost every category, there are multiple people doing the same thing, and you have to figure out how to differentiate and break through. For sure.
All right. Why don't we take some calls, Steve? Bring in our first caller. Come on board. Hello. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hi, Guy. Hi, Steve. Thanks for having me. I'm Sylvia Vieira calling in from San Francisco. I co-founded Coexist with my childhood friend, Stella.
And Coexist is an app for busy families to manage home life together. So you can easily coordinate everything from shared tasks to notes, calendars, recipes, meal plans, and even give each other kudos all in one place. Wow. Okay. So this is an app that basically it's like a family kind of sharing of chores and things and organizing. And is this – tell me how this idea came about, Sylvia.
Sure. So I was working in operations at a growth stage technology startup, running a lot of different projects. And as you can imagine, staying organized was a very key part to that job. Around that time, I moved in with my partner and we quickly... realized that managing a shared home was way more complex and honestly also way more higher stakes than some of our work projects. But we didn't have the right tools like we did at work. And we did try using other tools out there like Asana.
Google Docs, Notes apps, but they felt so corporate or one-off solutions and also just made home life feel like a business project. And so one day I was talking about this with my childhood friend, Stella, who's a designer and really passionate about home life. And together we channeled this frustration and created what we like to think of as an app that's really simple to use and makes running.
a home feel more like a team effort. Wow, that's cool. So the idea is that a lot of these other apps, these sort of collaboration apps are just too corporate. Here's one for sharing tasks. Who's going to feed the pets? Who's going to make dinner? It's like a calendar. Tell me how a family might use it. Sure. Yeah. So you create an account, you invite your partner, whoever you live with to join you. And once you're in.
There are kind of three main areas to explore. So those are the to-dos where you can set up recurring or one-off tasks. So things like feed the cat or, you know, remember to change a filter that you always forget about or move the car. You can assign them. to people or kind of alternate them. The second area is notes where you can create and share notes or browse from a template library that we have.
And then the third area is meals where you can either add recipes manually or import them from a website URL and even generate a weekly plan with a categorized shopping list. And it's just a lot quicker than how people are. doing it today manually. Cool. And how are you guys doing so far? How many users do you have? And yeah, tell me a little bit about the business side.
Sure. So we have several thousand users worldwide. We have kind of grown primarily through social media, in particular Facebook groups. Instagram influencers, and in particular therapists. And we've also done some co-marketing partnerships with companies like BetterHelp and the Fair Play Policy Institute. Amazing. Okay. And before I forget, Sylvia, what's your question for us?
Yeah, so, so far we've had a much easier time finding and marketing to majority female communities, especially ones that are oriented around motherhood or mental health. About 80% of our signups are women. But we know from our research that in our most active households, it's often the men who... suggest using coexist or some technology like coexist and are big advocates of it so my question is what are some strategies that we could use to drive growth for coexist especially when it comes to
reaching and engaging more men. Interesting. Okay. I'm going to bring in Steve Case because I think you know a thing or two about technology. And Steve, you're on the road a lot. And I think, I imagine your wife, Jean, is on the road a lot. You guys have a foundation, a lot going on. You probably have a way to coordinate your calendars, imagine, or people who can tell you where the other person is.
But I don't know. What do you think? What do you make of this? I think it's a great idea. Actually, it's something we probably could use. We do coordinate our calendar. We do a lot of texting and have assistance. But it's busy and hectic. And I think it gets more complicated when, in our case, you have kids. and grandkids. That's one of my questions. Is this really for couples or a way for two people to share things or is it lend itself also to some?
group applications in sort of an extended family, maybe even for divorced parents in terms of coordinating thing. I'd be curious what some of the initial users are doing. What are they doing that maybe were different than what you were expecting going in? Because that might lead to the insight of which. particular target group to go after in a more focused way? That's a great question. And we have been very intentional about
making it inclusive to different family structures that are not that nuclear family structure. And we've seen, you know, siblings who live in different parts of the country who maybe have an aging parent and they want to coordinate that. We have gotten questions about divorced couples who want to co-parent, you know, the kind of the three key personas that we've seen emerge from our research of people who are currently using the app are...
One, kind of the self-described techies or the people who are optimizing things and really love finding efficient ways to do things. So the post-its and the whiteboard in the kitchen is not going to do it for them. The second... area is one that was surprising to us, but it's people who have had some sort of kind of diagnosis. So ADHD is a really common one, but also things ranging from short-term memory loss to diabetes, anything where you need to have a little bit more.
structure and kind of control and managing your appointments, diets and things like that. And the third one is sort of like the new parents who are feeling overwhelmed and maybe a little frustrated about the division of labor at home. and maybe transitioning back to work and need to kind of reshuffle things. I think it's the kind of thing where the general notion, the idea of an easier way to coordinate a family.
life which is busy and hectic kind of makes sense but my guess is there's you know one or two or three more specific almost killer app ideas that really will drive traction and drive initial adoption and then over time people will use it more broadly so i just try to understand if people are a couple thousand people you've got what are the things that they're spending the most time on and obviously focusing more more on that and then the other
broader point, which may be a little harder, but it's worth exploring, is the extent you can figure out some way to unlock virality so it kind of spreads on its own, that's sort of the magic to it. So maybe a bunch of guys are using it to coordinate something and then they realize they also can use it to coordinate their particular kind of family situation.
Yeah. Sort of leaping off what Steve was saying. I have a group of guys that I hang out with. We meet once a month and just kind of hang out. But it requires organization. And there's one guy who really does all of it. And we do it through WhatsApp. It's just like, hey, let's meet up at this place.
Who's in? And it seems to me like maybe there's a way where you could plug into some of these groups, you know, either go back to the company where you worked and start there and offer, you know, there's like a sub stack kind of. model here where you offer people two months free, right? I think because how much does it cost to use?
It's around $70 a year now. Okay. So basically say, hey, we're going to give you two months free and give us feedback and tap into some of these groups of guys to see how they're using it and with the idea that they would then... you know, bring it into the house. I love that. And also building on that, there might be some...
It sounds like some of the use cases are people trying to solve some problem they have, coordinating something that has to get done. And obviously, that could be a key driver. But the other side is, are there positive things that are more not problems, but actually more? And is there a way to kind of have an offset, something like it called date night that helps plan dates or sharing?
kind of ideas of which things to watch, because obviously all the different streaming services, it's hard to coordinate what you want to watch, let alone what you want to watch with other people. There are ways to tease people with a particular idea.
and then over time expose them to the broader kind of capabilities. I don't know if it's going to be driven more by the problems they have to deal with in terms of coordination, sometimes even coordinating some of the drudgery of everyday life. That could be a driver. But if to the extent you also can...
look at ways to do things that might be viewed a little more positively, a little more optimistically. People are eager and happy to use it, not like, oh, I better go check that to figure out what my chore is today. That negative sentiment might not drive the adoption or drive the
virality as much as something a little bit more positive. Yeah, I love that you said that because something we've really tried to do is to infuse the app with a really playful kind of soothing design and to kind of layer in gamification.
you know, make the language more about like, so-and-so needs help with something or, you know, not like you've been assigned this or you need to go and do this. It's all meant to be very positive, but I think definitely in the... even in our marketing and the features that we float to the top, there could definitely be more positivity and excitement.
Also, it could be a gift, you know, like for big events, Mother's Day, Father's Day, is that you basically annual subscriptions, half price, or, you know, you're gifted to a friend or just some way to kind of double down on, you know, particular segments or even particular days. For sure. Yeah, that makes sense. For sure. The app is called Coexist. Sylvia Vieira, thank you so much. Congrats and good luck. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure.
All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab. NFL fans, there's a new way to watch your favorite teams. On December the 25th at 5 p.m. GMT, the Christmas games will stream live on Netflix. And it's good!
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Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is AOL co-founder Steve Case. What do you say, Steve? Let's take another call. Great. Let's do it. Hello, welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Steve Case. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hi, thanks for having me. My name is Mindy Horwitz, and I'm calling from St. Louis, Missouri.
And I'm the founder and CEO of Mindy Knows. We provide peace of mind and support for parents whose children attend college far from home. We provide advice, we make recommendations, and we deliver custom packages and other personalized concierge services for college families. And this is a web-based business? Yes, it is. So basically, you drop your kid off at school, but then you go back home. I don't know.
2000 miles away and then you're like, oh, man, like my kid needs to find a doctor or my kid is, you know, looking for this like. piece of equipment for sport. They can't find it. Stuff like that. You can just help out with whatever a parent might need. You nailed it. And we just tried to take the stress away from the parents who try to support from afar.
Well, I can relate to this having grown up in Hawaii and gone into college in Massachusetts. So I'm a target customer. And actually, I remember starting a couple of businesses in college that were kind of tied in with this. And I realized that you can't really sell to the students.
because they don't have much money and they prioritize beer. You have to sell to the parents who are missing their kids, love their kids, and maybe feeling a little guilty about things. And most of the businesses that we formed were really focused on selling to the parents. I like that aspect of your business. By the way, Steve, having gone from Hawaii to Massachusetts for college, that must have been depressing that first winter.
Oh, yeah. I kind of knew about snow in theory, but in practice, when it, you know, I remember going to class, I think it was in October, and it was in shorts and flip-flops. It was, I think, 60s or so. I left the class less than two hours later. like 30 degrees and there was six inches of snow and i had to stumble back to my my dorm so yeah that was welcome welcome to the nfl this is this thing called winter
Yeah, you needed to find a local therapist. Mindy would have helped you at the time. Exactly. I needed Mindy Nose back then, or at least my parents did. Mindy, how did you come up with this idea? I was a stay-at-home mom. I was able to stay home with my kids for a long time.
And then when they were in their teens, I started to think about going back to work. And simultaneously, when I sent my first child off to college, I joined a Facebook parent group, and I saw all the things that the out-of-town families needed for their students. realized that we had an opportunity to help. I'm a social worker by training, and I just realized that it's very challenging to be far away from your kid, and we could make it much easier and more stress-free.
So we launched in 2019. And this year we expanded and we're now on 11 campuses. Awesome. And tell me a little bit about your business model. How does it work? Our business is a membership-based business. We have a monthly, a semester, an annual, and a four-year option. We like to feel like we're kind of like a family from afar. I think the students kind of think of me as a kind...
And when we form a relationship so that when things come up and they inevitably do come up, the parents have a sounding board and a support system in town in a place where they may not.
be lucky enough to have a local relative or friend. Yeah. And how do you think about the pricing? I could see you wouldn't want to charge per... event because that's kind of hard you know getting some kind of recurring revenue stream would would make sense at the same time seems like the kind of thing you might you know need you know two or three times a year right uh is it
Is it better to have a monthly fee or an annual fee, or is it better to say you can get five or ten of these kind of consults? How do you think about it? Have you tried different things in different schools, or is there one pricing structure across all of them? No, each of the schools is different because every school is very unique. Here in St. Louis at Wash U, we've tried a lot of it. I always wanted that ongoing relationship. I just didn't want to be a one-trick pony, but we did.
add the monthly option. I think the best thing is if you're paying X number of dollars to send your kid off to college, our annual fee seems relatively reasonable. And then you just have the support when the things come up. But we also do do the monthly option. And what we find is that once people use us, then they continue on. And I think they feel a connection and so continue working with us. Mindy, before I forget what's your question for us?
Well, my question is about customer acquisition, especially at our new locations. It's been a challenge. The schools themselves are not going to give us the list of their parents. If they did, we'd be set. We'd be set. So we do a lot of guerrilla marketing because it's a challenge to... to get to the parents. The kids are the ones that are here. So we have done Facebook ads and Instagram. We've had an influencer. We hired a PR firm.
And we know from our experience here in St. Louis that the customers, they join us and then they stay for four years. We make an impact with them, but getting the new customers, especially in the new communities, is so challenging. Yeah, I wonder if in terms of attracting customers, maybe in some cases, it's better to target the parents before the kids go to school, because that's a time where they're, you know, a little bit of transition.
then people might, even if they don't have a particular need or a particular problem yet, it's almost like buying a little bit of an insurance policy just so they can rest assured that if a problem comes up, they've got somebody. on point who can help there. So I don't know if that could be working with high schools to something that they can make available to the parents before the kids even head to college. Is that, have you tried something like that?
It's a great suggestion. And we've talked about that. When we were only at WashU, it didn't feel as, we weren't as memorable. The larger we get, the more schools we're at, then the more that technique, I think, makes sense. You know, I think that makes a lot of sense to go to the college advisors. Maybe they wouldn't help share with their parents what we do. Yeah, I think it's a good suggestion. One of the things that I keep thinking about is...
It's been a tough couple of years to be college student all around. Right. There's been a lot of turmoil on colleges. And I think that a lot of parents are, you know, just concerned about about their kids, their safety or their mental health. The reality is a lot of young people are reporting mental health challenges in ways that we have not seen in previous generations. And so I wonder whether you start by connecting with.
community organizations around the country that have connections to the universities, you know, religious organizations or centers or students. congregate and gather and really trying to see if they would be receptive to hearing you out and what you can offer. If I could figure out what those organizations are, I would love to reach out to them and try and make that connection. Absolutely. And most schools now, they quickly tend to have
Facebook groups and other groups where the students start gathering and getting to know each other and even the matching in some colleges and universities around roommates and so forth. It starts building some of that. If there's a way to...
interject there. I think it makes sense. Now that you're thinking about it, one of the businesses I started when I was at college targeting parents was something we called the magic bus. And for parents who weren't going to be going with their kids to college, they're going to fly like I did from home.
Hawaii. Basically, we said, we'll pick you up on a bus and all the other students who are flying in for the first time will be on that bus. It'll be just freshmen. It'll be a fun bus with entertainment and refreshments. And so instead of having them arrive at the
airport by themselves, lonely, scared. They instantly have a community. And parents resonated with that because they dealt with one of the concerns they had. And as a result, actually, the college was willing to give us their mailing list of incoming freshmen. Something like that as a way to start creating a service that's of interest to the colleges as well as the parents. And then from that, maybe you can offer more personalized services that are available. I think you've got to figure out.
some way to interject yourself as they're making the transition before they arrive on campus. That's probably the point where parents are most motivated to want a service like this. Absolutely. I think that's a great, great idea. Also, just to piggyback on that, we have, at least here in St. Louis, and I think at a lot of these schools, so many international students who literally are coming from across the world, their parents...
Don't come in with them. A magic bus would be a great option for those international students. We know there's a wonderful opportunity there to help kids who are so far from home. Yeah. For sure. For sure. It's a really cool idea. And I'd have to imagine that there are physical mailing lists that are still available to buy. I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of young people who go off to college every year.
And there must be ways to reach their parents. And I wonder whether those mailing lists are affordable. Is it something you've looked into? And is that something you'd be open to doing? A mailing list would be our mothership. We would love to have a mailing list. I just haven't known where to go to find that. If it were available, I would be willing to invest heavily into it. Absolutely. I was saying before, a little bit of a welcome wagon idea. Not so much the Magic Plus, but the...
not everybody who goes to college ends up staying. Some people, for whatever reason, don't make the transition from starting to graduating. And that's a concern to parents. It's also a concern to the high schools and the counselors and others. So something that... positions this as a way to maximize the likelihood that not only you arrive and you're happy and get connected to other people, and if you do have some particular problem, there's somebody there to help, but also will maximize
maximize the likelihood that you'll be successful there and be able to graduate. It's almost like buying the insurance policy. And with insurance, you know, Insurance companies know that most people are not going to have a problem, but a few will, and they get everybody to sign up just in case. Is there a way to price this more affordably as more of an insurance policy and know that most people will not?
actually use it uh but but it will be something that'll be provided source of comfort to everybody Oh, that's very interesting. I actually never thought of that. We've shied away from any kind of scare tactics. We don't want to put fear into anyone's head, but if we did try to... position it as an insurance policy and maybe at a lower price point it might be. But then we would probably have to limit the scope of what we do, you know, because if we had more customers.
Maybe, maybe. But my experience with AOL, we basically, when we went to unlimited use, yeah, there were some people using it all the time and we lost money on them and some people using it infrequently and we made money on them. So it ends up being a law of the averages.
could put some you know kind of mechanism in place saying it basically unlimited service unlimited coaching but if it gets used too much you can say well actually we're now going to limit it to you know two times a month or five times a month or something so
few people don't end up driving up the cost for everybody. Yeah, for sure. Great suggestion. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you, Mindy Horwitz. Mindy knows. Good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you so much. Good luck, Mindy. Thanks, guys. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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we were very young, that we've continued to read about. The stuff that really motivates at least 50% of this partnership. If you want more laughs, stories and more of us going on script, be sure to follow Everything To Play For wherever you get your podcasts. Are yours going to be all about Wales? Yes. Hello, ladies and jerbs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast.
After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and...
Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all. Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville? Who done it? Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out.
Follow Tiz the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Steve Case. So Steve, let's get right back into it and take another call.
Hello, welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Steve Case. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hi, Guy and Steve. It's really great to meet you. My name is Jason Levi. I'm calling from Las Vegas, Nevada. And I'm the co-founder of Kedenza. And we make early childhood music education products that make learning about musical instruments fun and engaging. Awesome. And what ages are your products for?
The youngest kids, like two to five, roughly. And so when you say products, what would be more specific? What are you making? So our first offering is a series of board books that have QR codes throughout them. So the adult can scan to pull up sounds, videos, demonstrate musical concepts. and even simple physics explanations like showing vibrating guitar strings and things like that. And it supplements the page content and really brings instruments to life for these kids.
All right. Tell me a little bit about how you came up with this and what is the vision for what you want to build? Yeah, absolutely. I'm a professional trumpet player in Las Vegas. Love it. Yeah. And I'm married to another musician, a violinist.
And we have a wonderful four-year-old daughter together who loves music. Like, no surprise there, right? It's in her DNA. So we were listening to music one day, and I was trying to teach her about what she was hearing. Like, oh, you hear that low... groove that okay that's the bass guitar you know and then oh you hear those fast notes that oh that's the saxophone right and so like she's sort of understood but not really so
would have to go sit at the computer or look at my phone and i'd have to google image search for a reasonable picture of the instrument and then try to find a kid-friendly youtube video to show someone playing it or how it works and the whole thing felt really arduous even to me. And I know a lot about instruments. So that was the, oh, there's got to be a better way moment. And I started thinking about ways to make learning about instruments easier and more accessible.
And so that brings me to your second part, like the why, like, why did we want to do this? And Guy and Steve, like, I hope you've had this experience in your life as well. Like music is such an awesome emotional connection point. from older generations to the newer um you know my daughter's four so when i play her earth wind and fire or marvin gaye or ella fitzgerald she doesn't know that it's i'm air quoting here
old or uncool for kids to listen to. She just hears music for music's sake. So I'm really enjoying this time period of connecting with her via music that I love and feeding her curiosity about the instruments that make it. And that's the why, that's the whole point of why my co-founder Noel and I are building Cadenza is to nurture those musical connecting moments between generations.
And, Jason, tell me a little bit about who you think your target – I mean, obviously, it's two- to five-year-olds, but who are the kinds of parents who are going to – I mean – I know that exposing kids to music from an early age and ideally getting them to learn how to play an instrument does fire up things in a kid's brain that can be extremely beneficial as they develop. Who are you targeting?
What kinds of parents are you trying to get at? Obviously, I think like – parents that are musically inclined or musicians themselves are a fairly easy sell but you know music loving people in general so people that music is a part of their life and that's how they want to connect with their kid so that kind of leads me to my question now i i think uh if you don't mind please yes please okay good so um so the the analytics from our online advertising show that people that engage with our ads
are overwhelmingly women over 55 so really grandparents more than parents right which is a surprise because i thought i'm writing we're writing kids books right now and i assumed we're marketing to parents but it's really grandparents that are clicking it up on our ads. However, the conversion rate for that section is very low. So like our question is, is there a better way to connect with and convert the grandparent aged audience, whether that's online or offline? Hmm.
Well, here we go. I feel like I'm your guy today because five years ago we had no grandkids and now we have five, all under five. And so I think I'm the target market. And I'm not surprised that, you know,
are interested in part because they're probably trying to supplement some of the things that parents are doing that are kind of fun and creative and music is obviously a good one to do that. So I think trying to figure out ways to reach grandparents makes sense. I think maybe... a press effort focused on
Magazine for Grandparents are partnering with AARP, which by definition has a group of people over 50 or podcasts. I think that would make sense, but I'm not at all surprised that grandparents aren't a key marketer. at the question is what's the most efficient way to reach them uh and so they can they can learn about this and buy it right yeah like they're they're being reached online they're just not converting so i'm not sure what the reason is why exactly
I think that the key is to keep it simple. I'd go back to exactly how, when they're learning about this, if they're reading an article or hearing about some kind of promotion you have, how do you simplify? you know, what it is and maybe get really easy to click and buy kind of like Amazon one click buying, I think would be key to that. Just figuring out other ways to make it really easy to buy offering, you know, guaranteed return, things like that to kind of, you know, de-risk.
And the other thing is you mentioned people... would have some predisposition around music targeting those particular groups, I think would make a lot of sense. Maybe bundling the book with a little kid's guitar, kid's ukulele, something like that might be another way to do it.
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. To that point, when we started it, we weren't entirely sure. It was originally going to be like a magazine, something that came once a month. And then we were thinking maybe subscription boxes, but then we landed on board books first.
Because just to have a bundle to sell. So right now we have two books available. There's piano and guitar. And we're working on one book for each instrument family after that. So there's going to be woodwinds, brass, strings, percussion, and voice are forthcoming. In phase two, as I like to call it, we would like to make games, cards, stickers, puzzles, etc., other things, to make it really more of a products business and not just selling books.
It seems to me that this, at least initially, to get to really gain some traction, you've got to have this in stores, in boutiques, and in like a food product. It seems to me that there's a huge opportunity here to demo this. Like literally sit in a bookstore or a library and demo this thing. But I also feel like...
Just having a D2C online is going to be a little bit more challenging, just because, especially with a target audience you're going for, I mean, they go to stores, people over 65, they're going to go to a shop. So I would consider reaching out to some of these stores and seeing if...
they would just carry the books and display them. Yeah, no, that's a great point. We are in a toy store, at least one toy store in Los Angeles. He ordered a dozen... books a little while ago and then we just heard from him again that was like hey i'm all out now i want you know what does oh great bingo bingo that's working well so we started offering the guitar book only
And it came in like Q3 last year. So we really only had one book. Now, only recently now we've received the piano book in stock. So now we have two kind of out of the seven. We haven't put like all of our chips, all of our marketing chips in yet because I want the most bang for our buck.
I think that's great. I'm glad to hear you have this broader product line, probably because obviously there's different instruments that people want to learn about, but also it gives you the ability to spend more on marketing because you're not just selling one book for $20 or $25. You're trying to build a broader or maybe even over time, figure out some way to subscriptionize it. But I agree with Guy. If you're in some of the stores targeting young...
kids, that's a great place to launch. And then over time, figuring out ways to offer more products and services. And ideally, instead of having it be a one-off purchase, turn it into much more of an ongoing recurring revenue subscription kind of offering. Yes, that's absolutely the plan. Yes. We didn't want to just try to sell books. We wanted to make a music education product company that helps.
people engage with music and and create memories with their kids around music jason levi the brand is called cadenza kids congrats good luck we'll be following you thank you so much this was useful and really fun thank you all right great jason thanks thank you Yeah, so I mean...
I think as kind of circling back to my first question, I mean, it is a, on the one hand, the barrier to entry is lower, right? A lot of people can start web businesses, app businesses, but it's a lot harder to get attention. lot harder to get the eyeballs on what you're trying to, you know, sell
Yeah, it just forces you to be a little more unique, a little more differentiated. And the best way to create a big business is to create a very small, successful, passionate, small business where you've got some real loyal, fanatic customers who love your product, love your service.
friends. And from there, you can launch into something bigger. But often, entrepreneurs try to go too big too fast, kind of spread their marketing dollars too broadly. And almost always, it's better to sharpen your focus on a particular target market.
particular uh you know kind of niche but i should also say guys it said you reminded me that i did one of your first shows before you launched the show we weren't even sure whether it'd be successful we there's this concept called how i built this because i interviewed you before we launched.
Yeah, at some point, I need to turn the tables here and do an interview with you on how I built this. Because you have started with a little idea and turned it into not just a podcast, but really a broader franchise, a broader platform. And so it's a great entrepreneurial journey. yourself. You know what? You've just reminded me. Thank you for doing that. That was a big leap because we didn't know you took a risk and I'll never forget that, Steve, ever. Seriously.
It means a lot that you did that. I'm just proud of what you've built and how it's inspired another generation of... entrepreneurs, you know, America is the leading country in the world because we've been the most innovative entrepreneurial nation over the last nearly 250 years. We have to keep doing that and we need to inspire the next generation. So thank you for doing your part. Totally.
Steve, already when you were in college, you were organizing the party bus and doing all these cool entrepreneurial things. You were like ahead of the curve here. Just trying to make a buck to pay for some beers. But that's the thing, right? That's when it starts. And I wonder whether...
If now you could go back to to the Steve case who was building what would become AOL at the time, you know, in the in the mid 80s when it was just a weird idea, like, what are you doing? What is this? You can do what? Like when people were asking those questions. If you go back to that person and just give him advice, what would you say to him? I would say that you should recognize that that.
Big ideas take some time for people to understand and embrace. Usually people are pretty skeptical, cynical, so don't get discouraged by that. And, you know, revolutions usually happen in evolutionary ways. It takes a while for things to build up. I mentioned the early days of AOL when only 3% of people were online. It really took a decade before it broke through. And there are many times where it didn't look like we were going to make it.
at one point called and said, you know, have you maybe thought about plan B? Like this isn't working and you know, you have a young family and so forth, which I understood, but we stuck with it. And so I think that notion of
passion, that notion of perseverance, having the right perspective, I think is important because sometimes businesses aren't really good ideas and you should be honest about that and say, okay, we're getting the data back from customers, getting the data back from markets. Maybe this isn't meant to be. Maybe we should. shut this down, or maybe we should pivot and do something else. But just as often, they are good ideas. They just require
more patience, more perseverance. So sticking with it also is important. So I'd tell a younger self that if you really want to fight a big battle, you want to climb a big mountain, recognize it's going to be hard. It's going to be frustrating. You might fail. But you might succeed, and you likely will only succeed if you stick with it over a fairly long period of time. There are very few overnight successes. For sure. Steve Case, thank you so much. Thank you, Guy. Great to be with you again.
That's AOL co-founder and CEO of Revolution, Steve Case. By the way, if you haven't heard Steve's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out. It's super fun. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
So when that deal unraveled, I'm assuming that was the biggest contract that the company had. Yeah, we were banking on that. We just raised a bunch of money, about $5 million, which for us was a lot of money. So when Apple basically said they wanted to pull the plug, pull the rug out from under us, that was a scary time. Did you think the company was going to collapse? There was certainly a possibility of that.
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing. some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with.
And hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com. or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo.
Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on how I built this lab. If you like How I Built This, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com. Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests.
like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out.
Follow Tiz the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. Bye.