Oh Holly I've got an idea for our road trip how about we do some Q&A from our Patreon members what do you say do you think they're really gonna like that probably not but we need to give them more content so they get more bang for their buck and their patreon membership so i'll tell them where we're going we're going to the grand canyon and turn around and we'll see what happens but i've been brainstorming
name for this set of Q&A Holly are you ready for it I finally think I came up with something clever all right hit me with it all right so we're going with our two dogs George and Genevieve they're in the back seat of the CRV And then Holly's driving right now. But this is the name that I came up with. Doggy style, colon, a peek from behind, dot, dot, dot.
Our Route 66 road trip. What do you think, Holly? You've really outdone yourself this time, Austin. So you get it? We've got two dogs, so we'll call it doggy style. And then a peak, since we're both peaks, we'll spell it P-E-E-K. And then this is a Route 66 road trip. So it should be fun. And that episode is out right now for all Patreon members, so just check your Patreon feed. And now, on to this episode.
So I guess I got one question before we get started. If there's one skill that you'd want to teach like an entrepreneur or the most important one that they should know or have, what would that be and why? People management skills or... The soft skills would be number one. And the reason why, of course, is you are unlikely to accomplish really great things without a team of people.
If you're going to have a team of people and you want them to do great things, they got to be well aligned with whatever your vision is as an entrepreneur. And that's how you bring things from idea to reality. That was a curveball at the time. It could have squashed us. And we just happened to be in a situation and had the right strategy to find our way out of it.
I will create this video for you. And if you like it, here's the price that you're going to pay. And if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. So they gave me the job, of course, because why wouldn't you take that deal? And so this is, I think, helpful for any entrepreneurs. And that's what helped me hire and retain really great employees.
Don't ever start a company just for the money. It's just such a risky thing to do, first of all. A lot of entrepreneurs end up with zero dollars, but great experiences. A lot of us hopefully end up with both great experiences and a lot of money. And if you don't get that the first time, just keep trying. My name is Fritz Brumder. I am 42 years old. I'm in Bend, Oregon.
And I'm the founder of a company called Zipcan. And what is that? Zipcan is a embeddable video chat platform. So we are really driven by the mission to bring video chat to all corners of the web. Okay, so zipcam.com, so people could check it out if they wanted now? Z-I-P-C-A-N. Can. Okay, that's what I'm confused about. Okay.
Zip can. It's meant to be a fast way of communicating. And the can part is kind of a reference to the old kid's can phone where you're connecting two people to talk. Is this a new project? It is, yeah. I was founder of another company called BrandLive. I'm sure we'll get into that story.
But after I sold Brand Live about six months ago or so, I took some time off, worked on a few passion projects that are also pretty interesting. And I'll share some of the stories there. And then founded a new company called Zipcan.
I do like that it's simplicity. And then I do like your logo there too. I like people to just check out people's websites while they're listening, if they're sitting down or whatever. So Z-I-P-C-A-N.com. So you said you're in Bend, Oregon. I don't think I've had any guests from there. How'd you end up there? Well, I was in Portland for many years, 15 or so years, and I really enjoyed the kind of tech.
creative, artsy culture of Portland. It was a city with a bunch of small towns essentially and a great food scene. Just lots of good things that Portland had going for it. But it just, as the city grew, they started to run into multiple problems. It just wasn't the right fit for our family anymore. So we started looking around and we did really like Oregon.
And we found Ben and we started to spend a little bit more time here and realized that there was also a really strong community here, a great school for our kids. And so we decided to move here, actually, when I was still working at Brand Live in Portland. and I commuted back and forth, which was pretty good. But I was headed towards...
the remote work concept for the company, actually, prior to COVID. And so that's why I felt, hey, I want to live in a place that is great for my family, and then I'll just make work happen as it needs to. I mean, I'm looking at pictures. It seems pretty beautiful. Smaller city, like 100,000 is staying up in the mountains. Yes, we have mountains very close.
Lots of pine trees, ponderosa pines and lodgepole pines. It's a really beautiful area because the forest is relatively open. There's not a lot of undergrowth. And so the mountain biking around here, the horseback ride.
is really amazing. We have lots of water because we have the Cascade mountain range and usually there's year-round snow on most of the mountain peaks around here. The rivers and lakes are plentiful with lots of really clean mountain water well i live in florida so if i see a hill i think it's a mountain so you know if i'm seeing anything in the background i'm like oh he's in the mountains you know so looks very nice from all the pictures i've seen so
Yeah, we have really beautiful mountains around here. A lot of people refer to it as the Seven Peaks area. There's seven pretty large mountains. Mount Bachelor and the Three Sisters are the most famous. Yeah, I had you written down for Heroes Brand Live and you said that's obviously the company you sold six months ago. Why'd you end up selling? Well, I started the company with a co-founder in 2010 originally. We're basically a custom website development company.
And when you're doing custom software development or custom website development, you're always sort of at the beck and call of the clients and you're taking their direction and trying to build whatever their vision is. And so when you're doing that kind of thing.
A lot of those kinds of companies have a vision for creating a product that is their own product and something that they can build and then sell. It's more fun to do and economically it's a lot better. And so we started prototyping a few things. came up with the concept of Brand Live. It was actually the third.
project. The prior two, we actually got to the point of some revenue, but it just wasn't scaling fast enough. So we essentially sunset those or let them go about their life cycle. But BrandLive really took off. BrandLive is a live video broadcast platform. And it allows brands and retailers to do their own closed source live video broadcasts. So it's used a lot for remote collaboration, things like sales meetings, but it's also used a lot for consumer engagement.
Essentially, think of it like QVC. So there's somebody who is a product expert. They broadcast live on video on that company's website, plus other social channels. And then the viewers can watch and comment and purchase the products that they're talking about. So, I mean, how is that any different than something like Zoom, just so everyone understands? Yeah, BrandLive is designed for a one-to-many broadcast, and when you're watching it, it looks more like TV.
So you can have framing of different people and you can have lower thirds and you can have recorded video and really high quality production that looks very different than Zoom. And usually the audience is quite large, hundreds to thousands. oftentimes tens of thousands. You know, we have done launches for like Nike Air Jordan, for example, when they launched the Air Jordan 30, they had this big production. It was done at the planetarium in Chicago.
Jordan was there and the designer was there and it was this very large event. And so we took that and streamed it and made it available for people to watch and purchase the Air Jordans on that day. Who's Air Jordan? That's Michael Jordan, in case people don't know. I'm just making sure. I try to leave no listener left behind. Air Jordan, Jumpman, number 23, whatever you want to call him.
it makes more sense like thank you for making it easy because again this audio only for everyone who's trying to visualize as they're listening and doing whatever right now like being able to stream actually high quality HD live versus like, even if you and I were doing video zoom, they're cutting down the bitrate unless you're a huge company and paying a lot more, I guess as well. Right.
Yeah, it's not only the quality of the video, but just the production. It's really the difference between calling somebody on FaceTime and just you get what you get from one camera, either facing you or facing the opposite direction. There's no... editing that goes into that. And obviously as you think up to like movies and TV shows and stuff, they spend months and months producing and editing the graphics and making this show look amazing.
Live video broadcast is kind of in between those two things. You have a lot of those tools to create a production, but you're not doing it in typical film production style. You're doing it live in the moment, which is how live TV shows are filmed every day. Yeah, like live basketball games or NFL, right?
Yeah, they have like a person in a truck that's looking at a screen with 10 different cameras or 20 different cameras. And the director basically picks which camera do we want to go to? Which graphics do we want to go to? Do we want to play commercials? Brand Live is more like that. With the holiday season quickly approaching as you stock up on stocking stuffers for family and friends, don't forget to treat yourself as well.
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It's pretty amazing to me because I've seen video production truck and not like really been in one, but I remember high school, even taking TV productions and things that they would have to do. Right. And that's such a small scale, especially doing it live. I think that must be one of the hardest things to be switching cameras all the time.
making sure you're getting the right shot and whatnot. And basically you're doing that for, I guess, the people who are using brand.live. They're that type of production where they want to stream it live, like you're saying, and have that quality control and not just an iPhone camera, if you will. Exactly. And actually as a founder, that was part of my mission and vision.
I had come from more of a film production and a high quality world. And I wanted to bring some of that capability to people that didn't have any film production background, a marketer or just like any creative person in general. put the tools in their hands to be able to accomplish something similar to what you would see the professionals do for the NFL. And that worked really well and especially got popular for brands that cared about their image.
and had the money and the resources and the people to be able to take advantage of this new found technology. Because historically, you could only create a broadcast like that if you had a satellite truck and you had these hundreds of thousands worth of equipment.
Live really helped democratize that and make it easy and accessible for companies to use. So what's like the smallest customer size in case right now someone was interested in maybe trying to use it? Because I see you have to request for info. find out more about brand live and how it gets the rates and whatnot but could you tell us about the type of clients that y'all had yeah brand live is really designed for enterprise customers so
We used to say big companies, well over 100 employees, usually thousands of employees. So it's geared towards larger customers. Zipcan, on the other hand, is really designed for small to medium sized businesses that want to take more of a Zoom kind of experience and build it into their website. So, you know, we've seen obviously a huge explosion. of all kinds of remote collaboration, all sorts of different business models being delivered over tools like Zoom or Google Meet or Microsoft Teams.
And our vision at Zipcan is to build technology for small to medium-sized businesses to take an experience like that and put it inside of their existing customer touchpoints and customer journey. they want to interact with their customers or their customers want to interact with each other, they can just click and boom, they're on video rather than linking over to Zoom or Google Meet.
Yeah, so it's like the pop-up where you have a live chat agent and it's the Comcast people that are pissing me off over and over sending automated messages. But instead of yours is a button that I can start a chat with the founder there or someone in HR or I guess anywhere within the company. I can click that and I can do an actual Zoom.
It's not a Zoom chat, but a video chat on their website. That's what your product does now, the Zipkin. Exactly. Yeah. And the idea is that people are getting much more familiar with the Zoom-like experience or FaceTime experience. Facebook and WhatsApp have obviously a lot of video calling capabilities and people are just more and more attuned to having a face on the other end as opposed to just a video call or an audio call.
I was going to say my friends tell me the adult websites have this feature as well. They do. They are innovative. Do they use Zipcan? Actually, you know, when I first started prototyping BrandLive, the technology was really early. The capability of basically doing a high quality broadcast was literally... only available for big tv producers or production trucks and satellite trucks and stuff and so
I started prototyping different technology. And one of the tools that I tested was built and designed for that kind of live private chat, adult chat thing. But they were just selling the software. And so I said, well, I'm not going to use it for that, but I'm going to prototype this way. That early prototype helped us validate the concept and show it to customers. They didn't know what the backend software was originally designed for, but that's the connection to the adult world.
So it's still proof of your prototype that actually it seems like you can get all the kinky stuff out, right? And make sure it works further. See what I did there? I did see that. I heard it too. Cool. I think, yeah, we understand. I appreciate you walking through the differences. Did you actually touch on why you actually ended up leaving BrandLive? I hadn't gotten there, no. So I think I left off with the story where we were coming up with the idea for BrandLive.
Yeah, and I'll go back in more detail if you don't mind. I was just wondering overall, and then we'll go back and go year by year if that's okay. Yeah, no problem. So the transition was a series of large moves that we had made as a founder in a company, especially when you take external money. So we had raised just over $5 million in capital. We were successful.
successful to the point that it was time to bring in an outside CEO. And when we brought in the outside CEO, things just got a little bit murky as all founders that have been through that process would probably know. And so the company changed pretty drastically. a couple of years and it had grown up, fortunately, as a founder. It's great to see a company or your little baby sort of be off on its own and be able to stand without you. And so we had just reached that point.
One of my investors was interested and excited about taking the business through the next phase. And so it just was the right time. Did you want to leave or did they say it's time to go? Yeah, it was very mutual. You know, initially I proposed it and brought it up and then we worked out all the details and found a way to make it happen. The business was naturally in a transition point.
So something big had happened in order for the company to have the right path forward for the next few years. And this was one of the options that we explored. And it turned out to be really perfect timing for me. I mean, this was all before COVID. I got an exit. It wasn't the exit, of course, that I wanted as a dream big founder and entrepreneur, but...
a lot of entrepreneurs don't get to an exit. And so I feel really happy about that. Put my family in actually a really good position, have enough capital to start my own next company. And so all in all, it was a win for me and a win for the company.
I mean, that's good perspective. I imagine you're kind of of the age that, because you're 42 today, there's a lot of kids, it seemed like in 2000, who were holding out thinking their companies were worth so much more. And then dot-com crashed and they got nothing.
Right. I've heard where they could sell for 20 or 30 million. And then on the exit, none of us really get to the expectation we wanted. But it's always important to see you got something. And what matters more is if you're happy, if you weren't happy with the way the company was going and whatnot. Now you're kind of cut free and it seems like maybe you have new wings to explore with a new company, right?
Exactly. And all of that came true. There was some pain, of course, in the interim and not hard to see that. But definitely once COVID hit and all of our worlds changed, it gives you a lot of perspective about. how priceless just your mental health and happiness with your family and the place that you live is so important.
if it's all right with you we'll reel it back to i guess when you started brand live or do you want to even go before that i'm trying to think what's the best place to start here Well, I think there's a lot to learn from the growth of Brand Live Experience because we grew really quickly. We made the Inc. 500 our first three years after spinning out the company from the...
custom software development company that I had mentioned. And that's really where I learned about the first comment, how important the team and the people are. We were really fortunate to retain almost all of our key hires from...
year one, two, and three. I think the only people that ever transitioned out of the company were for personal reasons. We had someone who became a first-time mom, and she decided to spend more time at home with her family and stuff like that. But otherwise, everybody was...
really passionate about the vision and the mission at BrandLive. And we built some amazing friendships and grew the company really nicely. So that was a very fun experience and taught me a lot about the power of mission and vision and aligning the team members okay well can we just talk about year one how old you were and then like how much money you had to get started yeah so in year one so the year we spun out was 2012 we raised
A friends and family round is about $150,000. And what do you mean by spun out? So we started the company inside of another company. Okay. And so this is, I think, helpful for any entrepreneurs. Sometimes people call them intrapreneurs. So you're essentially incubating a new concept or idea with people that you're already working with in some way, shape or form.
And the cool part about that is you obviously have an ongoing company, you're engaging with customers already. So you have some of the basic building blocks to make progress with the company. The hard part is it's oftentimes distracting and if you don't set it up the right way.
it can get really mucky. Fortunately, my co-founder and I set it up the right way. We basically created a separate LLC and we're just very good about tracking our financials and booking the expenses that were happening towards this. new product idea financially. So we kept things clear there and we just kept good dialogue between me and him. And eventually once the product of Brand Live got to the point where it made sense to spin it out, we did that successfully and it became its own company.
so you're 34 years old at this point when you spin it off like what was the company you were working for and how big were they did you already have a company before that have you ever had any entrepreneur experience i feel like there's a lot more
Because I'm looking, you went to Bates College and then that's where you talked about film and video production. Just quickly walk us up to 2012 because I guess there's about 10 years of maybe entrepreneur experience or maybe just regular business experience that... I think will help everybody understand your lead up to this. Yeah, I have a good failure entrepreneurial story.
That helps. I started a video production company because that was really my passion was video production. And that company failed relatively quickly. And the short story was my first big client and client in quotes, I created. to deal with them. I said, Hey, you're going to take a risk. I'm a brand new company. I will.
create this video for you. And if you like it, here's the price that you're going to pay. And if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it, but I want the job. So they gave me the job, of course, because why wouldn't you take that deal? And I made the video and I was all excited about it. halfway through the project, I was feeling even better. So I rented some additional equipment to make the product even better. And I delivered it to the client and they didn't buy it. So was this 2001? Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. So this is right when you came out of college. So you're 23. I'll just keep referencing the years and your age just so everyone can understand the buildup. Okay. So that was your first company coming out of college. You had one project. It didn't work out. Then do you decide I need to find a real job now or what?
So then the natural thing to do in film production, it's all freelance based anyways. So I started working in Los Angeles a lot and just picking up productions wherever I could. And I actually got to work on some really cool things. You know, those ESPN commercials.
with like Kirk Herbstreet and stuff. Yeah. So I worked on a bunch of those. The like game day ones or whatever? Game day commercials, exactly. See, I'm good, yep. Yeah, I got to work on one where we dressed this guy up as a Heisman Trophy.
So he's like all painted gold and stuff. And it's a fake tailgate party with all these old ladies. They're going through food line and they're slopping this old potato salad and sausages onto their plate. And the Heisman Trophy guy comes in there and tries to Heisman one of the old ladies.
Lady's getting her potato salad and a football player like comes out of the side and just levels the Heisman Trophy kid dressed up. We had this cool mattress over to the side. And so we did a bunch of takes with that. And it was Herb Street and those guys there. It was pretty funny.
they always had funny ones that's what i was remembering i was trying to remember if it was like the sports center commercials but i'm like kirk herbert street only did game day so i knew how to be the game day commercials see so i'm good exactly Yeah, I worked on really cool stuff, ESPN stuff and some stuff that ended up getting into large museums like the Guggenheim and the Getty Museum. That was more like video art stuff, but very large scale productions. So I was still into.
traditional film production. But then kind of the crux moment for me or the tipping point was when YouTube started to explode in 2005-ish, 2005, 2006. I was actually in San Francisco at that time. I was doing sort of a summer business program at Stanford and YouTube was really exploding. And that's when I realized, okay, the concept of video and film is really going to shift from traditional production to internet delivery almost immediately after that.
I got a question real quick. Did anyone else in your industry like see that too? Because I know sometimes people within an industry are like, no, it's always going to be the same way. But it seems like obviously it came true that you saw this going to be more of like an internet play, if you will.
Yes, exactly. Well, obviously, enough people did that we all made it happen in various ways. And I was not the driver of it. I was along for the ride. But there was a lot of people that, you know, the traditional old film producers that really stuck with. the old form and, for example, would say things like, we're never going to shoot all these commercials and films. We would shoot it on traditional film. And that changed by like 2010-ish.
So I was a little bit ahead of that. And I didn't know that much about software and the internet and web development. And so that's why I started working for a website software development company so that I could learn about that. And that was 2005? Yep. Okay. And I'm looking, did you go to school too? Yeah.
You'll notice I'm big on education. I have my own little personal philosophy. It's built very similar to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and on the bottom of it is education. So I'm always trying to learn as much as I can throughout the process.
Well, where'd you go to school? Only I know right now and you. Yeah. So when I had this kind of connection between my passion for film, the fact that the internet was going to change the way that video and film was delivered and... fact that the dot-com era had already happened, I knew that the entrepreneurial skill sets were going to be really important.
in order to make something happen on the internet with film and video. And so I started looking around. While I did that program at Stanford, I wasn't smart enough necessarily to get into their MBA program. And so I went to Babson, which actually is... really well known and ranked usually number one for entrepreneurship. And that's Babson in Boston. However, they had developed an MBA program for Intel that was based in Portland. And that's the MBA program that I did.
You didn't go to Stanford for a year or no? Yeah, I did go to Stanford, but it wasn't their full MBA program. So I was able to get into this like kind of interim executive ed type program.
Which is still something. Like you said, I think about that, like it's like connections. Honestly, that's what mattered for me more than anything going to grad school was connections. It's not necessarily the education. Exactly. And I am still in touch with some people that I met at Stanford. Yeah. Proof and point then. Yeah. And then Babson was even more powerful than that. A lot of my Babson colleagues ended up becoming investors in BrandLive.
Okay. Well, perfect. Yeah. So that was a couple more years down the road. So basically you did these ESPN commercials and you saw that YouTube was taken off. Did you go get a job, you said, with like a software company to kind of understand that at this point? Exactly. Okay. So how long did you work there?
So it was about, well, it was five years, between 2005 and 2010, I learned software and website development. And then that's when I approached my boss at that time about starting BrandLive as a subcompany. So with the software development stuff, were you doing any video production or did all that just stop? It's just, this is a kind of a new job for those five years.
So I started actually working on a lot of projects that were bringing video to the internet in ways kind of similar to YouTube. So for example, we built a lot of websites that had... user-generated content, like social and video-based content. We did a lot of film contests where the company would want to have their customers create and produce their own videos and then upload them to their website.
starting to happen at this time. The iPhone video was available so people could shoot video a lot easier. A lot of the websites we built basically took advantage of that to engage their audience. Okay. And then slowly, you kind of stopped doing that as a role in the company. And what was the name of the company, just so you can keep track of it? Cascade Web Development. Okay. Cascadewebdev.com.
And so did you enjoy, like, up to this point, were you making a lot of money? Just tell us, like, because there's people who are in those seats right now. And they're like, maybe I'll eventually be an entrepreneur or be able to do my own company. But I think it's important to know what skills or anything else that you learned or know your... roles in those companies? Yeah, it was fun for sure. As I mentioned, I do really enjoy the education process. Go back to that time where I realized, okay,
My passion with anything video and film is going to have to require this internet component. So it's not like you're going to learn that thing overnight. And there was definitely some periods where I was impatient and wanted it to happen fast. and wanted the company to grow faster, wanted to start my own company. But it did take about five years before I really understood.
the technology of the internet and what was possible. And the vision for what I had was still a little bit ahead of the capabilities at that point. When I started probably by 2008, I think it was, or 2008 or 2009. I started to get really serious about starting a company. And I was either going to leave that company I was with or...
approach my boss at that time and say, hey, I've got a vision for a company. Why don't we try to start this inside of your company and then we'll spin it out if it's successful. That was the plan we ended up going with and it worked really well.
So now it's full circle. And now I'm glad we talked about like you go into college, you went to college for film production and understanding why you decided video, right? Because you had this passion for it and understood it. And now it makes sense all the way up to this point. That was the company, the Cascade Web Development Company.
that you were talking about where you did the web development and were eventually able to, I guess, start this interpersonal company because I have heard of this multiple times. And again, this is somebody who's listening. Maybe you're in the same role. You're like, hey, maybe you don't want to necessarily go out by yourself or maybe you could, but.
You could also approach your boss and just see what they think about it, especially if you don't want to be there necessarily, like in the same role. Maybe you still like it there. It's worth a risk, right? It seems like that's what happened with you if you were the one who came up with the idea and approached your boss to do this. Exactly. Once you come up with the idea, you have to find a way to get resources around you to bring that idea to life.
And starting with the company that you're working at, if you have a good relationship there and that company, usually all of them do, have a desire to be innovative and try new things, then you're going to actually bring an asset to them. by helping them put in the nights, put in the weekends, and see if you can get something new to happen to either grow the revenue of that company or build an asset that can be spun out.
So do you have any other tools or tips on there? I know we kind of roughly talked about it, but if someone was to approach their bosses and like how you did it or how you might do it differently, it sounds like you alluded to, which was smart, was making it a separate LLC and keeping the books different.
Yeah, that's the high level. The most important thing is obviously clear communication. And the thing that gets the murkiest there is the financials. You got to keep those things separate and you have to have contracts between the... new company and the old company so that there's a customer relationship essentially between the two companies.
Even though the owners might be the same, they're rarely exactly the same and the interests are definitely not aligned. So you have to treat them like two different things. where people run into problems is where they start to get uncertain. Well, how much money have I actually spent on this new thing? And...
Is it paying off? And what if one person's perspective changes on that and then they want to slow down the spending or not put as much in or shut the thing down in general? It's unclear at that point. So did all that happen to you, it sounds like? No. Actually, most of that didn't happen to us. Well, that's good. We avoided it. I could literally see all that happening easily.
Yeah, it happens to most people. We had friends that it happened to. We either learned from those mistakes, it didn't happen to us, or we just avoided it in general. We ran into problems later down the line, but at that point, we didn't. Okay. Then one thing too, before I guess we keep moving on, you said make sure you had contracts in between the two. What do you mean by that? Like what contracts?
Well, just regular customer contracts. So the company was a website development and software development company. And the two ways that they would work with clients is either hourly. Or they would say, okay, this is the software you want to build. We'll give you a custom, a quote for building it. Let's say it's $20,000. And then we're going to go off on this three-month process of building that software for you.
The new company has to have a contract with the company that's being incubated inside of so that relationship is very clear between the two. Okay, that makes sense.
I understand what you're saying now, because I mean, contracts could mean almost anything, right? So you're just talking about if the web development company brought on a new client, it was brand live at the time. If y'all were going to do this video production, you had to like give them a quote to your old Cascade web development company.
This is how much it's going to cost and how many hours. And just for each individual custom web design they are doing, making sure there are custom contracts for each one, sounds like. Yeah, but the most important one was the contract between Cascade Web Development and BrandLive because they were really two separate companies. It didn't look like that to the outside world, but... In reality, they were two separate companies and so you treat them like they're a customer essentially.
Okay. It does. I mean, with the nitty gritty, everyone can start kind of figuring that out, maybe start Googling, but that gives me a higher level idea because it's going to depend on what type of companies there are and whatnot as well. So I appreciate you alluding to that. So if we run back up to 2012, that's kind of the point that you're 34 years old. I guess it seems like you make decent wages all the way up to this point in time.
Yeah, I would say for a 30 some year old in a small company, it was good. But the vision for building a company and being entrepreneurial, there's a lot bigger upside there. Right. So then at this point in time, you're like, okay, you talked to your boss that it's time to spin it off. And how'd that go? Well, it actually made a lot of sense at that point because BrandLive was starting to become...
a real thing and therefore it was a little bit distracting. The business models were a little bit different, the kind of customers we had, the kind of employees we needed. It just was natural. Yeah, I was going to say by real thing, does that mean like other web development companies were also trying to work with y'all too? No, so the BrandLives customer was just different than custom web development. BrandLives customer was larger brands that were trying to do video broadcasting.
And there was a little bit of crossover between the clients, but it just made more sense to spin out. And actually, probably the biggest trigger was taking external funding. So up to this point, it was funded by me and my co-founder. And once we took money from an external source.
that's when it made sense to make it its own entity. And as a matter of fact, it was a requirement of our investors because they wanted to have 100% focus on the company. And so we needed to spin it out and make it its own thing. Was this exciting? It was, yeah. It was a very exciting time. I know. I need to hear some excitement. I thought you'd be excited. Make sure you don't fall asleep. I'm like, dude, this is your first company. You should be excited. Yes. The exciting parts were...
We closed 150,000 friends and family investment, and that helped us spin it out and start to hire some of our own employees. But the most exciting part, we entered a startup competition. And the year that we did it, see, that was... I can't remember what economic issue was going on at that time, but typically the startup competition would have two winners, first place and second place. And there was a bigger check, obviously, for first place. The day before the event...
They said, we don't think we're going to get enough money to have a winner and a runner up. It's going to be a winner take all this year. So we're like, oh, shoot. So we knew we were one of the front runners, but we go into it just the best pitch that we could. And it was kind of up on a stage, big audience, pitch competition kind of thing. And they vote. They announce the winner within an hour or so after the pitch competition.
And we won. And it turned out that they were wrong about the math for the amount of money that they were going to get in because they had already selected the winner take all strategy. The check size almost doubled. It went from another $150,000 to over $300,000. And we took all of it. I thought you said they were going to do the math wrong and you were second place instead of first place. That would have sucked.
No, we actually won by a landslide. And then it was a combo of like more money came in and people really liked what we were up to. And so the money that was kind of sitting on the sidelines ended up coming in and the check just grew. And that was a huge boost. Well, that's great because trust me, I don't watch beauty pageants, but I do remember this Miss Universe a couple of years ago. Do you ever see that? Yeah. Who's the announcer?
It's the Philippines because I got a lot of Filipinos who work for me. I think she was the one crowned and then they took it off and gave it to the other one. Steve Harvey, there you go. Yeah, Steve Harvey. Yeah, he accidentally... Well, actually, I think they gave him the card with the wrong name, so it's really not his fault. I kind of feel bad for him, you know?
That's what I was imagining in my mind happened to you. So it was a double whammy as far as a good thing for you. Now you got $150,000 plus $300,000 to kind of start your company? Yeah. And then shortly after that, we closed another million. Wow. Yeah, we raised within about 10 months or so. So did you feel on top of the world? I mean, are you like the CEO and have your own office now at that point in 2012, 2013? Yeah, we actually started in 1930s renovated train car.
And when we closed over a million bucks, we finally moved out of that and we got a nice office. I mean, it was kind of a Portland industrial funky space, but we shared a wall with a brewery and we always joked that the brewer was going to put a tap through. wall for us. He never did but it was easy enough to walk around the one wall to get into the brewery. So we had really good times there.
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Code. Millionaire. On that point, I'm just thinking like, how do you finally reach your life goal as far as business? You're like, you have your own business. You're 34, 35. Like, I mean, was everything just going well and smooth? Because again, you're transitioning of being the boss now. So there is that happiness. You have your own business, but there's. also kind of a different style of like you're more in control. And again, you're not one of just the employees.
Yeah, it was awesome. And it was really cool to be able to hire people that were way more experienced than me. I started to build a management team, a management team of five people. And I think all except for one were in their mid to late 40s. One was in his 50s and having people surround me that also believed in me as the leader was very empowering. Did you ever have an issue with like if you're the younger guy and hiring older guys? No.
Or was like every hire pretty good? Yeah, because, you know, sometimes I've heard that before in stories, right? And I could see that maybe there's resentment or something, but usually just depends on the people you're hiring. You never know how it's going to work out. I think you even said in the beginning, like one of the important things that an entrepreneur needs to know is like how to meet.
Yes. Well, the thing that I did really well and still try to do the best I can today is have a really clear vision and mission that you're working on. If you can get people, even that are way more experienced than you, to believe in that vision and mission.
put some energy behind it, then people will get in line and follow. That's what people really want. Before the money and everything like that, what are you going to spend your time on? Do you believe in it? Is the thing going to make progress? Is there momentum behind this thing? And that's what helped me.
hire and retain really great employees and so was it just slow steady growth and everything was good all the way through since you sold the company about six months ago yeah it was very fast growth and we grew like 300 percent the first year another couple hundred percent the following year. Our Inc. 500 growth rate was like 1300 percent. So yeah, it was a great ride and learning experience and all kinds of different curveballs.
It was fantastic for a lot of reasons. Money-wise, as an entrepreneur, when you raise money, you kind of get rich on paper, but usually you don't get rich in your bank account right away. As a matter of fact, venture investors... usually try to keep the salary of the founding CEO in particular, but usually the founding team members relatively low because... You're trying to incentivize them to create the most value in the stock as opposed to their monthly paycheck.
So that's another thing that's just important for founders to know and expect that because you're the CEO of a venture-backed company, it doesn't mean you're raking in the money. How many employees were there when you left the company? Well, at our peak, we were about 50. Some of those were contractors. We ended up building like a global video production resource, kind of like the...
It's a cliche, but the Uber driver is a video production. So you could call us and have somebody show up and produce a live video for you in Singapore within a week. I've never heard that cliche, the Uber of something. I'm joking.
Well, now people would probably say the Lyft is something. They don't like being affiliated with Uber as much, right? I know. So that was the peak, I guess you're saying like 50 employees. And you started off, how many people were in your little train car when you started off?
Well, we started at zero. When we spun it out, it was me. And we took one contractor from the web agency. So two of y'all. Yeah. Okay. There has to be more than zero. I knew how to be easy. I count you as an employee, right? Yeah, it started, I was the first in that when we raised the friends and family round, I brought over one of the software engineers. as a contractor at first. And then I hired two people. And then when we won the startup competition, we grew to I think four or five.
Yeah, that is big time growth over this, like, let's say seven year span or whatever. But I'm wondering, too, you said there were a lot of curveballs. So what were the biggest curveballs that we could learn from when you started Brand Live and up to you selling it? Well, some things really happened in our favor. When we started, for example, Facebook Live didn't exist.
When they launch that, you're always concerned as an entrepreneur and especially in the tech space of the big guys. Why? Every investor is going to ask you that. Why doesn't Amazon just do that? Or why doesn't Google do that? When Facebook launches a product that is pretty close. to what you are already doing.
It's both validating and scary at the same time. And so we had to figure out what's our strategy here? How do we leverage this momentum behind it? And a lot of our customers started asking, well, why can't I just use Facebook Live? It's free. You want to charge me 20, 30 grand a year? And these guys are free. So that was a curveball, but ultimately ended up becoming a validator for the vision that we had before Facebook even had it. That was cool.
gave us a different perspective on the market that ended up working. And we continued to grow as Facebook Live grew. So what was your answer? And I think I understand what it would have been. I'm guessing it's just like you said earlier on in the interview, it's like... Yours is more of a video production role versus just like a one-to-one camera going live. Yes. So that was part of it was the quality of production. But the other part is, as a business, you don't want to rely 100%.
on Facebook, for example, a lot of our customers had just spent millions of dollars really gathering Facebook likes. And that was the holy grail in that time period. Then once you get, oh, great, we have a million likes.
Well, then Facebook releases their advertising program that says, now if you want to reach your million followers, you got to pay this advertising because otherwise organically, you're only going to touch 10% of them. And so that was a hard lesson for a lot of our customers to learn.
So we just had to remind them, look, you can do Facebook Live, but if you rely 100% on just doing Facebook Live, eventually they're going to make you pay for that. So it may seem free now, but it's not going to be long-term. With BrandLive, you can...
can not only take advantage of Facebook Live, but you can also do broadcasts on your website where you own the audience and you control everything. And that's a huge asset for the company. So brands like REI, for example, they understand that message very clear.
it's good to validate right i guess i could see how it'd be scary but to me as a layman just like listening i'm like doesn't sound like that much of curveball as far as like anything negative that's happened before you've sold the company
What was the hardest thing you had to do when you were CEO during this period of time? That was a curveball at the time. It could have squashed us. We hear about that all the time. And we just happened to be in a situation and had the right strategy to find our way out of it. But you could very easily come up with stories where big tech company X launches a new product and boom, they squash whatever is out there. Yeah, I mean, I could see that. I guess it's just your calming voice.
Yeah, hindsight is 20-20 for sure. Yeah, you're too calm when you're saying that was your biggest curveball. So I can understand that. Even though you say that, they're like, I could see why it's for bigger companies too, right? Like a smaller company is not going to use brand live because of that price tag and once live came out. So maybe even if you could have done it for medium size.
companies they're like okay i'll still just go facebook live instead of use you guys and own the asset if you will Yeah, correct. Actually, that was another shift in the strategy was we just went to larger, higher price point customers that really needed more service and needed more customization than what Facebook was going to offer anyways.
Again, since you said this early on and you said that managing people was important, was there any managing issues at all while you were there? Yeah. Well, the first couple of years we had really good retention. We hired the right people and we retained them. Probably the first really hard one was realizing that one management team member...
I had a great relationship with, I really liked working with the person, but it just wasn't the right fit. And so we decided to make a move there and having that conversation really was the first person that I had to let go or fire. That sucked.
That was really tough. And unfortunately, I had to do it multiple other times that much later down the line, essentially the company was doing well, but we were trying to make some other hires. This is when we brought in an external CEO. We had just had to adjust this. size of the team. So I had to do a little layoff and that was really difficult. Because you said your pinnacle was 50. When was the highest employee count? What year? That was 2019, beginning of 2019.
Okay. So it was almost right before you quit. It still kept growing. You just had to do cuts from time to time, you're saying. In general, BrainLive has done very well and just normal blips, I guess. And without going into all of the details. When we started to make some big moves and it was hard for me to manage the expectations of my investors, I would say that was a really difficult thing. Well, how did you do that? Were you able to?
Not as well as I wanted to. It ended up causing more problems. Because again, this is another, if I'm sitting in your shoes, I didn't think about till now, right? Is this like, okay, it's already hard enough dealing with the employees and stuff. But once you take on money, then you have to deal with somebody else. It's like a whole different set of different type of employees. Yeah.
exactly they're like a different higher up like you have to make sure yeah it's just a different set of groups of people like how you talk to them and how you can help everybody Yeah, and you don't see that right away. I make the analogy to sports teams. You look at the head coach and you think, okay, the head coach is the boss. They have the ability to set the team and the direction and plays and everything, right?
no, they don't. There's the owner and the GM that hired them and they can fire them at any time. And you see that in the NFL all the time.
that's a perfect analogy yeah just so everyone understands this is like you have the head coach and the football players obviously but there's a general manager who's usually above him or sometimes they say next to him The general manager is actually the guy who hires new football players that come in in the NFL or cut football players, not the head coach, unless it's like one or two that have that power, but they split it up because it's so much work.
to like try to get new free agents or get rid of some guys that you don't want on your team anymore. Usually that general manager hires the head coach. But then also you have the owner. I mean, the owner is above everybody, right? And so sometimes those are two other people above the head coach. So it's always like balance.
like who you gotta please. If you're the CEO and have all the money and it's all your company, then it's much easier. Then there's more of a scale if you've got investor money, like you're saying, for your company. Yes, you create that owner level where the CEO is really hired by the owners to make it happen just like the head coaches. And they give you as much freedom and rope to do it until they don't. Then you got to adjust.
So do you want to talk about when you left and I guess kind of what you did during those six months or like, what do you think is the best part here as we kind of wrap up your story? Yeah, well, I think the, what I did interim was really great.
Brand Live, like I said, it did end up coming to an end for me, but not for the company. And as an entrepreneur and really as a builder, as I've done more soul searching about myself, the thing that I'm most excited about is creating new things and building. things. I feel really proud that Brand Live is still kicking butt and doing great as a company.
And I created it and set it off on its journey. And so I just took some time to reflect on that. I did two different passion projects. One is called Magic in the Middle. Magic-middle.com is the project. And I started educating again, just doing some research. I've always been into sports. And so I started interviewing CEOs and professional sports coaches. And I researched how they each built and managed teams.
and created growth-oriented results. And then I documented all of that in kind of a blog plus podcast format. So that was really fun. There's great content there. And I hope to continue to add to that over time. Are you still doing that podcast? I'm doing it as seasons right now. So I've finished season one. I think there's 10 or 15 episodes and I have another five or 10 in the can that I want to release.
Okay. It's the same name. So I'm just trying to help you out here if people wanted to look it up and listen to that. Yes. Yeah. Magic in the middle, magic-middle.com. So that was the first project you did after cutting your ties, if you will, with BrainLive? Yes, kind of, quote, retiring for the first time.
Yeah, because that's why I wanted to hear about this too. It's like, this is going to happen to, this is the idea. It's going to happen to everybody if you're going to have a company, whether it goes bye-bye, like it's gone, or if you have to let go of it, or if they tell you to leave, you know, then you've got to find something else. It's not easy. It wasn't easy. And it was a weird time period. And there was some things that I got really excited about. But ultimately, I was glad that I took.
a decent amount of space and really just thought and like I said, go back to the education, do some research, see what I'm really interested in, kind of reflect a little bit. I ended up doing the other project, passion project is called wholelifemeditation.com. So it's a way to visualize your entire life in one sitting. And it's meant to be done in anywhere from like 30 minutes on the low end to...
four or five hours on the high end. And so I started doing that. I came up with the idea, did it myself and was like, oh, this is pretty cool. I told some people and they're like, yeah, that sounds pretty interesting. And so I recorded a guided meditation to visualize your whole life.
What did you visualize? Well, that's where what gets me up in the morning, what gets me excited is creating and building things. So I thought about the linkages between the film school and the business school, YouTube and internet realization. All of those things, the brand live experience, I kind of put that story together by reflecting and basically meditating on that whole experience and trying to find the threads and connections between different phases of my life.
Thought you visualized Zipcan. Thought that's what you're going to say. Exactly. Well, I visualized that I want to create something new. I was looking at a bunch of things where I was going to go work for someone else. And I realized, no, that's kind of like if I'm going to do it again. I got to have some energy being an entrepreneur. Can we talk about that for a second? Because that last year before you left too, you weren't really quote unquote CEO yet. So yeah, I wasn't CEO anymore. Yeah.
It's weird taking that role. And at least you got the experience that, I mean, tell us what the differences were. Like when you would go to CEO and I guess they made you COO at that point. It was less stressful. Being a CEO is really quite stressful. I don't know if you've heard this before, other people probably. It's very lonely because...
buck stops with you, as they say, and you got to make decisions. I never really realized when I became a COO, I still had a tremendous amount of control and ownership of the company. But there was a lot of things that I relied on the CEO to make a decision on. And I realized how important that actually is. If the CEO is sitting on decisions and not making them, then the people below you.
are probably being delayed and not making decisions on their end too, which slows the whole company down. So it really is important that you make decisions timely and be really clear about what they are and not adjust too much and make it really...
confusing for people. Well, last week the CEO said this, now all of a sudden we want to do that. That is incredibly disruptive to the rest of the company. Yeah. It sounded like you liked it better, which is good. So I was thinking maybe you didn't like it and that's why you didn't think you could work for somebody else. Well, the only thing I did like is that it was not as stressful, but...
Otherwise, being a CEO is awesome. If you like a high-pressure situation, if you like being a visionary and a leader, then it's an awesome experience and role. And I do like all those things. Maybe you liked it minus the investors. Yeah. Well, there's going to be hard fucking shit. And as being an entrepreneur and you just got to deal with that stuff, it's going to be stressful. But it's also super fun. You don't do great things without hard things along the way.
Yeah. I mean, it makes you stronger. Right. I mean, that's the whole point is like the more that it happens, the more you don't get as stressed out because you're like, whatever, I've been through more. Yeah. And I think that's probably the, you know, I've always been this way, but the calm you're hearing in my voice is through experience. Right.
and so like you said you decided during this time you're taking off that you're going to go ahead and start zip cam i guess after the meditation thing that's kind of where we stopped yeah so once i kind of got a perspective that i wanted to start a new company
I started prototyping different things. I had a much better playbook at this point for how to actually start a company. There's a book called Lean Startup that is over 10 years old now, I think, but the idea is really work. And it's just a way to break things. down into smaller chunks and make progress and we started doing that, built a prototype, landed a big customer before I even incorporated. We got like a $30,000 contract.
before we even established the company. And so I had to like scramble and figure things out. And we did it. We ended up building the software for this company and licensing it to them. And that ended up becoming a startup capital for Zipcan. So it's been a fun ride. very short period of time. So are you going to take investors again? I did. Yeah. Once we got some momentum and landed a few customers.
Some investors that knew what I had done at BrandLive were excited about it. And so we've taken around $100,000 in investment. So not much in the grand scheme of things, but enough to get the company off the ground. And we're taking a very different... customer approach. Like I said, BrandLive was designed for big enterprise customers and Zipcan is designed for more small to medium size and self-service businesses.
And so what's the size of ZipCam right now? Do you just have that one contract and is it just you or just give us a walkthrough of what it is today and what you're envisioning here for the next few years? Yeah, I have one co-founder and then we've hired two engineers. We have two enterprise customers and we have 10 self-service beta customers that aren't paying us anything.
using the software hopefully in the next few weeks we'll make our software available for free on our website at zipcan.com and then we hope that it just takes off from there at brand live for example We had hundreds of customers at very large price points. With Zipcan, I hope to have thousands of customers at smaller price points. And I guess if anyone was interested, I can see you can sign up to apply. So I guess they could just go ahead to your website and check it out.
Yeah, right now we're in private alpha, so you have to apply. However, very soon we're going to make the product so you can just sign up and use it right away. And it's really cool. You just take this little code from our application, you put it into your Squarespace site or your Wix site or WordPress, any website.
And then you can have video chat right inside of your website, which is basically like a Zoom or Google Meet kind of experience, but you're doing it inside of your brand, which is not only cool for the company, we've seen a lot of our beta customers be like, wow, this is awesome.
Awesome. I get to have a video chat, like my logo's in the upper corner and people can look at products on my website. It's a pretty cool experience. So we'll see how it goes. Well, yeah, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your experiences. I guess, do you have any last words of wisdom for anyone who's listening?
Well, I think we talked about this a little bit, but the money is one thing, but the experience and the things that you learn and the people and the customers are definitely the best part of the entrepreneurial journey. So don't ever start a company just for the money.
because it's just such a risky thing to do. First of all, like a lot of entrepreneurs end up with zero dollars, but great experiences. A lot of us hopefully end up with both great experiences and a lot of money. And if you don't get that the first time, just keep trying. And the best way for someone to reach out and say thank you for doing the interview? On any one of my web properties, which at this point is zipcan.com, magic-middle.com, and wholifemeditation.com.
Thanks for doing the interview, Fruits. All right. Thanks, Austin. Guess what, Patreon members? I got our next five group calls already lined up for you. We got Jonathan Cogley from episode 85 taking your questions on how to find other entrepreneurs to partner with. Then we got Aviv Shagli for you, who's an entrepreneur from Israel. He's already had two successful...
business exits. And his interview is really inspiring. Next, we got Lisa Wise from episode 37, where she'll tell you exactly how she grew her real estate management company from the ground up and how you can too. Next, we got Ron Holt from episode 197 telling you how he grew two maids and a mop, not to be confused with two girls and one cup. And...
He basically grew his single location cleaning business to now a franchise model that covers 81 markets in the U.S. And he'll tell you how you can do the exact same thing. And last but not least, and by popular demand, we have Doug Smith from episode one. 82, which might have been our most open interview of all time. Well, anyhow, I hope you join us on these calls. I only invite my favorite guests back to do these group calls and...
We try to have a good time while also getting your business questions answered. Plus, if you ever miss a call, we've got a back catalog of every group call. So if you're tired of, I don't know, being a passive pussy, then come join us. I mean, are you just going to keep listening to this podcast and not do anything? Or are you going to be proactive and get in the game? Well, hopefully it's the latter. Because it helps you and me.
If you're interested in becoming a Patreon member and you're not already, then go visit our website at millionaire-interviews.com and sign up today where you'll get instant access to all past group calls. plus our special Patreon episodes. So hopefully you join us on the group call and become a member today.