[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Housewives of True Crime. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Tabitha, your True Crime Housewife, and I'm bringing you real crimes, real twists, and searching for real justice every week. [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a brand new disco biscuit riding shotgun, sometimes a fan, sometimes a friend, but someone always fabulous. [SPEAKER_00]: So grab whatever you're drinking these days, press play, and let's talk crime in the Carpool line.
[SPEAKER_01]: How to write a true right [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome housewives of true crime wake up Wednesday. [SPEAKER_00]: Are we awake? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean it is been a week already and today I have a very special guest you guys and I already told you on Monday so hopefully [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you love my friend David. [SPEAKER_00]: I think you will. [SPEAKER_00]: He is great. [SPEAKER_00]: He's just a cool, cool dude. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't want to take up any more time than without him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just going to say, welcome David. [SPEAKER_00]: And I hope you guys enjoy this wake up Wednesday episode, [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, so today I am sitting down with David Scott who I had met at CrimeCon and we had a wonderful conversation and I asked him to please come on my podcast to tell me what he's doing now because some of you probably know him from TV for years and years and years and now he's getting into the Crime World. [SPEAKER_00]: So welcome David.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_03]: It's great to be here. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so happy to be here. [SPEAKER_00]: I said that for those of my listeners that don't know you, or so you, you know, on TV doing interviews, not of killers, tell us where, where you were before this, and how you got yourself here. [SPEAKER_03]: Right, right. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yes, it's true. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm new to the crime space. [SPEAKER_03]: I've been a television journalist for almost 30 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was on a on an HBO sports news magazine called real sports with Brian Gumble for for 10 years. [SPEAKER_03]: I did a couple of stints at ABC News as an investigative producer and correspondent. [SPEAKER_03]: And in the past couple of years, I've turned to crime, an old friend and colleague of mine, Ethan Nelson, by the way, is like, I think the smartest person in nonfiction television.
[SPEAKER_03]: He runs court TV and when my previous show real sports was going off the air, he reached out and we sort of dreamed of what we could do, putting our two skill sets together. [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, that's a funny acronym because I almost want to be like, I am wacky to actually interview a killer. [SPEAKER_00]: But anybody could do it. [SPEAKER_00]: You could do it. [SPEAKER_00]: And I already watched a lot of that first season.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I cannot wait to get into the second season, which is coming up on October 20th. [SPEAKER_00]: And I, I. Twenty six. [SPEAKER_02]: So between. [SPEAKER_00]: Twenty fifth. [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: Because you start with somebody named Adam Williams. [SPEAKER_00]: who is a notorious killer, and scary. [SPEAKER_00]: And he's at down with the scariest of scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: So people that I talk about every day and even for worse than the people that I talk about every day and you somehow get them to tell you their deepest, darkest secrets that never actually have been shared before, [SPEAKER_00]: I, how do you do it? [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good deal. [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't always work out that way, but Adam Kerris Williams is a pretty good example. [SPEAKER_03]: Double homicide in Pogray Island, Texas.
[SPEAKER_03]: Your view is my, might, might well remember this case. [SPEAKER_03]: It was a terrible case. [SPEAKER_03]: He basically killed this, this couple. [SPEAKER_03]: this retired couple from from New Hampshire to steal their stuff to steal their truck and their trailer as he was making his his getaway to Mexico.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had already been on the run for a vicious crime he committed in the state of Utah and and as you know as many you know sociopathic killers do [SPEAKER_03]: is kind of a crime of expedience. [SPEAKER_03]: He needs the truck, and he's willing to kill for it, and that's what he did. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, getting him to open up. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, admittedly, this was a man who was ready to talk. [SPEAKER_03]: He had been already publishing his story on in a sub-stack journal.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think our timing was just very fortuitous. [SPEAKER_03]: He says, on to Ghana, religious conversion in prison. [SPEAKER_03]: As enabled him to see the era of his ways [SPEAKER_03]: And now he's interested in publicly coming clean. [SPEAKER_03]: and we gave him, you know, an opportunity to do that. [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't, I think, exactly what he expected, you know, when we walk in that room, we know everything that is noable about the killer and the crime.
[SPEAKER_03]: And more often than not, we break the killer over the coals to get them to come clean. [SPEAKER_03]: He's kind of on one end of the spectrum in terms of allowing us into his head. [SPEAKER_03]: But we've had many who deny their crimes. [SPEAKER_03]: Or, and we've had some that deny aspects of their crime.
[SPEAKER_03]: It seems to be very important to some of these people to soften the severity of their actions, even if they can appear to be slightly less culpable, [SPEAKER_03]: they seem interested in doing that. [SPEAKER_03]: But we've now figured out a method for engaging them. [SPEAKER_03]: The hardest part is the clock. [SPEAKER_03]: We're very often on a stopwatch. [SPEAKER_03]: And we get exactly minutes to do the interview.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in that time, we have to sort of break through the spin or the defenses that the killer comes in with. [SPEAKER_03]: positioning themselves for the next appeal or whatever their agenda may be and and then get them to recount the crime which many of them are not eager to do and then we take them to task that's generally our our our approach to these interviews and.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so far, you know, I have to say we've been able to advance the story, the public's knowledge of many of these cases, we've had, we've had now two confessions, first time confessions on camera, and, and, you know, even when the, when, when it's not quite as dramatic as a, as a new confession. [SPEAKER_03]: we're able to more often than not contribute more information, more knowledge about these these crimes in cases than was previously known.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's really what this exercise is about for us. [SPEAKER_03]: It's an exercise in journalism and what we're out to do is understand these crimes [SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe better equipped to fight this ton of problem. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I actually, you know, you do what we want to see every day in the courtroom, right? [SPEAKER_00]: We are watching court TV.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have another podcast called The Alternate where I recount, you know, court TV in, you know, 30 minutes of an eight hour a day. [SPEAKER_00]: And the whole time you're sitting there watching a tour trial and I'm sure everybody, even the jury are like, please, the defendant get up there and tell us what the heck you were thinking. [SPEAKER_00]: The parents want to know. [SPEAKER_00]: The family wants to know, why did you do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are episodes where you actually, even if, you know, I was watching one and she didn't. [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't want to say that she was involved in the stabbing of her girlfriend's mother. [SPEAKER_00]: She wanted to say she was in the kitchen, whether or not she was or not, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: we don't know, but I still think that you got more information that the public or even the family didn't know at the time because you're hearing it from the people that actually do it in your right. [SPEAKER_00]: The more we can learn from these individuals, the more we can protect ourselves, the more we can have laws to protect people against these people.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just the awareness, [SPEAKER_03]: No, that's right, and you know, for better or for worse, you know, some of the answers are going to have to come from the perpetrators themselves and you know, we we don't take joy in engaging with them, but we do think there is a duty. [SPEAKER_03]: to our profession, to journalism, to sort of, you know, boldly confront them and see what we can learn in the encounter and, you know, so far it's, you know, it's the shows doing well.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's well-watched people seem interested. [SPEAKER_03]: different from, you know, most of the crowded field of true crime and, and so yeah, we're, we've got a lot of momentum going into this third season where people will see, you know, will come face to face with, with people who've done things that are hard to fathom and we're very hard to sort of get inside their head and and better understand. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, both the mindset and motivations behind these crimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me with, you know, Adam, Adam Williams is case when he says that he has found Christ. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you? [SPEAKER_00]: Are you sitting there and believing him or and maybe not just him, but in general, I'm sure a lot of these guys want to say, you know, they have been changed or they are not the person that they used to be and I and I've heard that over and over. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you believe that to be so or is it sometimes you believe it and sometimes you don't.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm, you know, I go in skeptical about everything that comes out of there, their mouths, Tabitha, you know, how it is, you know, journalists or professional skeptics. [SPEAKER_03]: So, so I really can't take anything [SPEAKER_03]: you know on face value. [SPEAKER_03]: And as you say, you know, lots of felons find Jesus in jail. [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost a, it's almost a, it's almost a trope now in, in, in, in crime. [SPEAKER_03]: In, in his case, it's, it's, it's very interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we can use it as a window into his mentality, whether or not we believe it. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, whether or not he's, you know, genuine about it, you know, we ask the question is, is this more an act of convenience than conversion? [SPEAKER_03]: And, and the burden is his to sort of, you know, prove that, that he's, you know, true to his words.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think, you know, we've had, we've had, so we've interviewed several killers who claim to have seen the light. [SPEAKER_03]: And, and, you know, whether or not it's true, whether or not we believe it, I think we can use it as a window into their mentality. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't just interview men killers. [SPEAKER_00]: You almost interview as many women killers, as you do men killers. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: How is that different?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting, you know, we have such an incredible diversity of killers in our docate at this point. [SPEAKER_03]: So far, I've done 16 of these interviews, 10 of them have aired, another five will air in this coming season, which starts on October 25th. [SPEAKER_03]: And they're sort of all over the map. [SPEAKER_03]: So Cindy White, she's 67 years old. [SPEAKER_03]: She's the longest serving female in May in the state of Indiana.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her one and only crime was committed 50 years ago when she was 18 years old. [SPEAKER_03]: And she set fire to the home of her client, [SPEAKER_03]: set fire to the Christmas tree and it burned down the house killed four children and their parents. [SPEAKER_03]: She's been sitting in jail for 50 years for the first 10 years of her incarceration. [SPEAKER_03]: She's still denied the crime. [SPEAKER_03]: And then in 1986 she suddenly admitted to the crime.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so by the time we get to her, she has lived in prison longer than most Americans have been alive. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's hard to compare her, for example, to the young woman that you referenced in that Texas case where she and her teenage lover murdered one of their mothers. [SPEAKER_00]: Mary Ann. [SPEAKER_00]: I think her name was Mary and the mom. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: The mother. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another Texas case that folks in your part of the and the country will rule the hall. [SPEAKER_03]: But I'd have to count, but we have done almost as many female killers as male killers. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the statistics say that there are different reasons why, you know, female killers kill as opposed to, as opposed to men.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, what we've found in our very, you know, sort of limited sample is, you know, there are, [SPEAKER_03]: There are crimes committed in the heat of the moment, in the heat of passion, but there are more calculating crimes and conspiracies where, you know, crimes of opportunity for, for example, [SPEAKER_03]: We've done some of those. [SPEAKER_03]: This coming season, you'll see an interview with Rachel Wade.
[SPEAKER_03]: Your view is will certainly remember this case from Florida where a teenage love triangle played out tragically and a 19-year-old girl stabbed in the heart and killed. [SPEAKER_03]: her 18-year-old romantic rival with two had been feuding from months over a, over a boy, and she has for 16 years claimed that it was done in self-defense, even though there's a lot of evidence to the contrary, and for the first time in our knowledge, she changes her tune in our interview.
[SPEAKER_03]: under my questioning, so there will be, in this coming season, two female killers, very very different cases, but all super, super interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: I think you're, I think you're listening, we'll, we'll, we'll we enjoy this season. [SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think so. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me ask you, there's a lot of Texas crime that you cover and that's my neck of the woods, so that kind of gives you a lot of bit of a hippie gb's.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always say, you know, the crime is in Texas and Florida, but I'm thinking now that maybe it's just Texas prison is more open to having people talk to the prisoners. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm hoping. [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly right, the states have their own unique set of rules for these interviews. [SPEAKER_03]: Some states don't allow them at all. [SPEAKER_03]: And then some states allow limited amount of it, time limited interviews, like in Florida, we know we're going to get it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly 60 minutes. [SPEAKER_03]: Texas is one of the states that has strong laws and rules enabling inmates to speak and the press to conduct interviews. [SPEAKER_03]: So our docket is heavily weighted towards states like Texas, Florida. [SPEAKER_03]: We've been to Indiana, New York, Alaska. [SPEAKER_03]: we may be in Ohio soon, but no, you're sure you're in sync to exactly right.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is just about where we can access maximum security prisons and the highest security in the high security category of prisoners. [SPEAKER_00]: And what is, I'm sure you get asked this often, but is there one person in particular that you, like, that you loved interviewing the most? [SPEAKER_00]: I guess, it's like you got the most out of it, you thought, you know, this is why we came here. [SPEAKER_00]: This is, you know, this is it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I like for every one of the people I sit down with. [SPEAKER_03]: I know it's a great question, as a journalist, there's no greater challenge than doing interviews like this when you're on the clock and I've struggled to deliver these interviews to our [SPEAKER_03]: You know, mainly because of the time limitations. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like, you know, when the police bring a suspect in, they can talk them for four hours, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, forensic psychiatrists can talk for hours and hours. [SPEAKER_03]: We have to like really be strategic and precise. [SPEAKER_03]: I guess, you know, it's hard to pick out one. [SPEAKER_03]: Adam Williams is the one who I felt like we succeeded in getting, you know, most into his head into his mindset. [SPEAKER_03]: That was really a function of his allowing us to get in there. [SPEAKER_03]: He was, as I said, and like it was really seemed ready to talk about this stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: On the other, on the other end of the spectrum, is Brian Steven Smith, serial killer in Alaska. [SPEAKER_03]: He emigrated from South Africa and started hunting native women in Alaska, filming his crimes just despicable, despicable crimes.
[SPEAKER_03]: He denies the crimes, even though you can hear his voice on the video tapes and, you know, there's, you know, [SPEAKER_03]: his guilt is virtually certain, but so for him we had to take a different tact and try and sort of, you know, almost disembodied him. [SPEAKER_03]: So I said, okay, so the police say you're the man in the video, you're saying you're not, you say you're not.
[SPEAKER_03]: You watched the video and court, tell me what you saw in that video and in that he starts basically describing the killer. [SPEAKER_03]: and attributing to the killer various motives and ideas and eventually connects the dots and he figures out what we're doing. [SPEAKER_03]: We're getting him to talk about himself. [SPEAKER_03]: And so each one of these is very different, very unique.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I always kick myself after, even if it goes well, and I always kick myself after, because you think about things, you should have asked. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, or why did I see this? [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we had one black out killer. [SPEAKER_03]: Can't have remember anything of his crimes. [SPEAKER_03]: Can't even remember confessing to the crimes a month later. [SPEAKER_03]: What do you do with that, you know, as an interview? [SPEAKER_00]: Bird one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Whoa, you're like hitting a brick wall. [SPEAKER_03]: And actually that's how we came up with this device of disembodied and getting them to talk in the third person about the killer. [SPEAKER_03]: That's one way to you know to defeat the stone wall. [SPEAKER_03]: But but you know we've had we've had a teenage teenage kid who killed both his parents.
[SPEAKER_03]: you know of this himself completely open book bear there it is so let's Tyler Hadley yeah he he killed his parents because he wanted to have a party is that the guy that did that he'll do his parents with a hammer and then had a party [SPEAKER_03]: and already didn't, and you know, and so now he's a 30 year old man looking back trying to, you know, figure out what his teenage brain was doing. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's just, it's dark, but it's fascinating stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and it's the thing that I think, you know, we can really do to serve the true crime audience now as to his to. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, sort of courageously go into, you know, down the rabbit hole with, with people who have done things that will make your skin crawl and see what value we can extract from that exercise. [SPEAKER_00]: And David, do sleep well at night after each other's ex-interview?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I start the conversation with these killers like, you know, two weeks before [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, we have a very methodical approach to preparation, it takes over a hundred hours. [SPEAKER_03]: We read every piece of trial, testimony. [SPEAKER_03]: We look at every crime scene photo, the police walkthroughs, read through the sentencing hearing, every victim impact statement.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we go beyond the court record to find, you know, how fun it what else we can learn about the killer's backstory. [SPEAKER_03]: Other crimes, you know, stuff that's often precluded from evidence in the court of law, but it's completely appropriate in the court of public opinion. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I say by the time I walk in there, I really know, you know, I really know everything. [SPEAKER_03]: That's noable.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, one thing they all have in common is as diverse as they are. [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of the kinds of crimes they've committed and who they are, is an inability to read the room. [SPEAKER_03]: I think two a person, they have not been prepared for us to know so much, and very often, you know, how it is, they're sitting in prison for years and years and years, telling themselves an alternate version of the story.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, sometimes so much so that they believe it and and many of these cases have, you know, didn't even go to trial. [SPEAKER_03]: So it's the first time they're talking about it. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's the first time that somebody comes in and lays out the facts for them. [SPEAKER_03]: And, and, you know, if they have any any sense left, have any humanity left. [SPEAKER_03]: And we've had this happen several times.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, twice in the last couple of seasons, where they're almost like, huh, well, you're right. [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't think about it like that, but actually I deserve more time. [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's, that success, you know, when we can sort of get so far inside their head that we can kind of turn a light bulb on, [SPEAKER_03]: and get them to see their actions in clearer focus. [SPEAKER_03]: That to me spells success. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is success.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: I think, I mean, I have watched not every episode yet, but I have watched a lot of them. [SPEAKER_00]: And I cannot wait to watch this season. [SPEAKER_00]: I think you have a lot of people coming up. [SPEAKER_00]: Your bread, your buddy, he sent me over kind of just a little bit of each of the people that are that are coming [SPEAKER_00]: a couple of these cases, you know, right around the same week, so that my listeners can then hear from us.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, well, I think that will do that. [SPEAKER_03]: 360 degree perspective on this is because of the way that, you know, you, you know, very thoroughly go through. [SPEAKER_03]: the crime story and then they'll get a chance to, as you say, hear it from the horse's mouth. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: And we're there to take your listeners inside the Supermax prison and face to face with these people. [SPEAKER_03]: And then they can decide if they're believable or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I did get enough job of penetrating their defenses, so you do a really, you do do a really good job because you are your soft spoken. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think you have this demeanor where.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're trusting people like trust you and then when it comes to the hard questions, you ask them the hard questions, but in a way where it doesn't feel like you're attacking them and I think that's where you get them to kind of disengage into their internal defenses and start talking more. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, no, I think you're a beautiful job. [SPEAKER_03]: If hit the nail on the head, you do have to sort of, as outrageous and offensive as their conduct is in these cases.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, as journalists, we have to be disciplined enough to set aside our personal feelings and focus on the job, which is getting inside their head and getting the truth out. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a lot easier to do if you're not judging them, at least outwardly. [SPEAKER_03]: given you know, and that is the way to give them license to give them the space.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then there does come a time where you kind of also have to, you know, put the screws to them and, you know, and that's not, that's not to make them feel bad. [SPEAKER_03]: It's to confront them with, with the evidence and hold them to account. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you do well. [SPEAKER_00]: You do it well. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, thank you so much to have with that side grace come.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so where can everybody find you, how can they, you know, follow you on social, watch, watch you and watch everyone of these episodes. [SPEAKER_00]: I will also talk about it on my episodes that I do so that I can direct them. [SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Alden, my listeners, to you that week that I do the case, but help then, what can they follow? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one of the best things to do is to watch court TV, follow court TV on social, particularly court TV's YouTube channel.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because all of our episodes wind up on the court TV YouTube channel, looking all be watched for free. [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, if you want to, you know, if you want to binge the first couple of seasons to prepare for October 25th you can go to either the court court TV website or the court TV YouTube channel and watch away. [SPEAKER_03]: That's for me right now. [SPEAKER_00]: YouTube is the easiest for me, but that's where that's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the first episode of this new season, the Adam Williams episode is actually a special two-hour extended episode. [SPEAKER_03]: So it gives you a sense of how much we felt came out of that. [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, super excited and eager to hear what your listeners think about it. [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, October 25th, do not miss it. [SPEAKER_00]: Adam Williams is first.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think up next will be Rachel Wade who you also spoke about and November 1st, Julius Mullins on November 8th and then Amber, Alfred on November 15th. [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's more after that. [SPEAKER_00]: So. [SPEAKER_00]: You guys head to court TV. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I love court TV so much. [SPEAKER_00]: All of you already know that and now you're going to meet David and you are just going to love him.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been doing great things, David, and I hope we stay connected, and I see you again really soon. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much, Tabitha. [SPEAKER_03]: I really appreciate it. [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's definitely. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that is a wrap and let's all go watch on Saturday. [SPEAKER_00]: October 25th is when it comes out Court TV and let's get to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, if you have not rated and reviewed my podcast, I would love you to do so. [SPEAKER_00]: You can do it on Spotify, you can do it on Apple, or wherever you listen, and if you want to put a little comment, that would be very nice, and if you don't have anything nice to say, then please just keep it to yourself to be very honest with you, sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: And are we ready for Halloween? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my goodness, you guys, I'm trying to decide what to wear.
[SPEAKER_00]: if you watch me on YouTube because you always know that I do a dress up for Halloween episode and it's coming out on Monday. [SPEAKER_00]: So get ready for that. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you catch me on Thursday, Patreon, bonus episodes, then I will see you tomorrow. [SPEAKER_00]: Clink, clink.