Greetings and salutations. My name is Justin Lohr. And I'm Liam O'Donnell. And you are listening to episode 157 of Howl. Business. Business. Yeah. That was a werewolf howling? In case you guys missed that, because we are talking about two werewolf movies. We are talking about 1981's Wolfen and 2014's Late Phase. I think one of these movies is considered not a real wherewithal. But I will say I read the book.
And in the book, because I finished it today, they do use the term werewolf, even if it's only because they don't know what to call these fucking things. So that's just. Let's get one thing straight about this book and where it comes from. Sure. Uh... We'll get there. We'll save it for when we dive into the meat and potatoes of this movie. I mean, I generally know what you're going to say, but I will say...
I enjoyed the book. I did. That's not why I got it. He's a fantastic writer. Yeah. Like, have you read communion? It's fucking amazing. No, I've never. It's amazing. Yeah. But we'll get there. So, yeah, we're talking werewolf. But before we go any further, we would like to take just a moment, just one fucking tiny moment to thank the people who bring this show to you. First, let me thank you, our patrons, over on patreon.com backslash cinepunks. Now.
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But you guys over at Patreon.com, you help us out. So if you would like to help support this podcast and about a dozen other things, projects. people that go on in this podcast network, you can head to patreon.com backslash CinePunks and smash that subscribe button. Any little amount helps. We'd also like to thank our... The Magwitch to our pit. Yes. Over at Lehigh Valley Apparel Creation.
The Lehigh Valley's premier... printing company for anything you can imagine if you need a poster for your event if you need basketball jerseys to promote your hardcore band that is so ignorant you forget your fucking name when you play the demo if you need that stupid thing printed Please, please, please, please go to Chris Reject and bother him.
Like go to Instagram and message them directly. He really likes when people do that. He hates that. So. I know it makes me so happy whenever he posts screenshots because like I understand how annoying it is but I'm like oh you you had like an iota of like you were just angry for a minute and for a while that makes me so happy so if you want Amazing quality printed products at the cost of the worst human being who has ever existed, his mental and emotional well-being.
you can head to www.xlvacx.com. That's www.xlvacx.com. Liam, who else do we have to thank? We want to thank our friend Aaron over at EssexCoffeeRoasters.com. Aaron roasts. your beans that you order when you order them so that they are as fresh as possible. He's got a wide variety of single origins and blends. He also has quality teas and merch over there.
By teas, I mean tea you drink, but he also has quality teas as well. Head over to EssexCoffeeRoasters.com. On your way out, put in the code CINEPUNK, C-A-N-E-P-O-N-X. 10%. Aaron Dahlbeck, the host who can boast the most roast in coffee. I like that. Also, of course, we want to thank our buddy Sharky for making So it's sound good. Mechanical shark media.com and, uh, check out my, uh, my little, my little t-shirt project I do with my buddy haunt love, Justin, Justin haunt love over at.
www.roughcutfanclub.com. We're also on Instagram and other places, though I will say we update. You can just go to the website, dude. Do you guys have any cool drops coming up? Well, right now we've got a Cronenberg triple going, but we're hoping to have a lot more. Interesting. All right, now comes the time in the podcast where... due to my failing health, the fact that I'm blind, and I'm haunted by memories of atrocities I committed in wartime. My son, Liam...
He has me, he takes me to a retirement community at the edge of this swamp. And I have my dog with me, my faithful German shepherd. This creature breaks in and murders my dog in front of me. And I'm thankful I can't see, but all my other senses, Murdochly, have become sharpened, so I experience it.
four times as horrible as if I would if I could just see it. So when Liam comes to find me, my son Liam, when he comes to find me and my dead dog, as he goes, what happened here? I look at him and I say, Liam, what have you done involving horror? Well, Justin, as usual, I don't really have as much to talk about as I would like. That's just life, man. But I got a couple of things. Let's return to something that we can just call Liam's Anime Corner. Okay.
I started watching and then fiendishly ran through the first season. of a little show called Kaiju No. 8. Have you ever heard of this? I have not, but I like the sound of it. So... This feels horror adjacent, but I consider kaiju movies horror. So the show kind of works. And it's basically where you live in a world where there are kaiju. And of course, you know, kind of going along with the tradition of the movie.
Japan gets hit harder than anywhere else. And so they also have the most advanced kind of anti-kai. And we're introduced to a character who, to give you an idea of where this show is going, Justin, our main character's first name is Cuff. I like where this is going His name is Kafka Does it do what I think it does? Well, basically... He works as a kaiju removal expert. He helps get rid of the body. But he does that because he has failed many, many times to join the Strike Force.
But his childhood friend, who he promised they would join together and become great kaiju fighters together, she's like the head of their area. She's like one of the most famous kaiju fighters in the fight. world and he just cleans up corpses because he sucks and he can't pass. Okay. And he meets a young guy who joined the kaiju cleanup as a way to learn more about kaiju because he's going to join the force. And he tells...
Kafka, that they've extended the age limit. The age limit's now 32. So Kafka is not yet too old. He can try. And the night after they're attacked, while they're trying to clean up a giant kaiju, they're attacked by some smaller kaiju. And he helped save this guy, not heroically, but not very effectively, let's say. You know, he definitely is clearly not afraid, but it's not like he's a super fighter. He's still such a...
He is in the hospital, this dude, and he says, you know what? I think I'm going to join. I'm going to try again and join the force. And then suddenly there's a little flying kaiju, which, by the way, at this point, no one knows they can come that small, that literally flies into his mouth. And bada bing, bada boom, he turns into a humanoid kite.
That's exactly where I was hoping this was going. Uh-huh. And him and his friend, because his friend sort of, he doesn't watch it happen, but he knows it's him. He is freaked out, but he knows. that this is Kafka, like he can tell. So they just escape because they're like, if the forces find you, you're not gonna be able to argue about this. Like the kaiju are so hated and most of them have no intelligence, right?
So they're not going to be like, oh, this Kaiju is talking. He must be like a cool dude. Right. So he escapes and he's the first Kaiju to have ever escaped. So they give him a number, even though he didn't cause a ton of damage. and they are determined to find kaiju number eight. But my man's made a promise. He's not going to give up on it. So while they're trying to find this fucking thing, he joins the anti-kaiju forces, or rather, he joins the group of cadets trying to pass the test.
Meanwhile, you discover, and this is just episode two of like a, I don't know, 10 episode arc. that there are other intelligent humanoid kaiju that no one knew existed. So my man is even more fucked up because even if he reveals that, wait, I'm different, I can talk. They discover other talking kaiju before they figure out that he is kaiju number eight. So, like, there's no way for him to, like, sneak around the plot point. He is both joining the force and can turn into a fucking kaiju.
And I love it. I will say, despite there being lots of gore and definitely very scary moments because... Things get pretty intense with some of these kaiju. It's also very funny, so that might be off-putting for some people, especially considering this related to horror. It's very much a show that tries to cut the tension. with humor and I think some folks might
I fucking loved it. I love this guy. He's a real loser. I fucking love it. He's smarter than other people in the sense of he really understands kaiju, but he also just doesn't have much common sense. You know what I mean? So like he's helpful for what he's doing, but he's like he's he's older and he hasn't been working out and he doesn't have much education and he's really struggling to keep up. And to me, it's just totally charming. I love.
Did I love it enough that I'm going to do the move I've been doing and find the manga and start reading the manga? Maybe. I might. I haven't decided. But I'm pretty happy with the show, so I don't think I have to. Yeah. I also, I think I said this last time, but in case I didn't mention.
I listened to the audiobook of The Longest Walk. Did we talk about this already? The Longest Walk. I'm not sure. Yeah, the Bachman book. Oh, you mean The Long Walk. The Long Walk. Sorry, sorry, sorry. The Long Walk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I listened to the audiobook. I hadn't read it in a long time. It's fantastic. It's great. It's so depressing, but I still love it. And I also listened to the audiobook of a book called The Sapling Cage. which is by Margaret Killjoy.
Okay. Is that her last name? You know, Margaret who does the, yeah, she's on behind the bastards a lot. Yeah. And she does cool people who do cool stuff. Podcast. Yeah. She's an author for people who don't know, and she does a lot of sci-fi and fantasy stuff. The Sapling Cage, I think, is meant to be a fantasy book. but it is a book focused on witches that has a lot of blood and scary stuff.
So I think it kind of straddles that line between fantasy and horror. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I just I fucking loved it, man. I was I went in a little skeptical, not because I don't love Margaret. Her appearances on Behind the Masters, but also her podcast, I really enjoy. And I've read some of her short stories, so I knew I kind of liked her style. A fantasy book about witches could be hit or miss, right? Yes. And her portrayal is so good and so compelling.
I don't know. I just loved it. I really loved the book. And then as far as like watching anything, I haven't watched a ton. I will say if people listen to my other show, Cinema Schmorkage. You will find an episode where me and Doug talk about the latest Cronenberg film, The Shroud.
Yeah, so I don't think it has an American release yet, which we didn't realize. So we watched it via a thing and then realized later, oh, no, people are going to hear us talk about this, but the movie's not even really out yet. Bummer. Bummer. Didn't mean to make that happen. But I liked it a lot. I will say... I think it'll be an adjustment for some people. It's not...
Not that it's not Cronenberg. It's very Cronenberg. But it's not like the kind of thing that people are looking for right now from him, which tends to be either body horror or something that's more like of a drama. You know what I mean? Yeah. This is definitely like... Honestly, it's like a spooky crime film in a way, but it's one that is uninterested in clarifying things for you and whose subject is...
the subject of horror, if that makes sense. There's a whole revolving around death, but a lot of the action has to do with politics and revenge and espionage. And it's really an effort to... The movie really is uninterested in helping you. Right. And I love a movie that's like, I don't, I'm not going to help you understand this narrative. There's a lot of shit going on and you're going to be confused, but the movie still works and that's just what it is.
Anyway, I liked it a good deal. I don't know if our episode talking about it is out yet. Doug might be waiting for the movie to come out. But if you listen to Cinema Smurfs Board, you can let me know if it's out already or when it comes out. And then this isn't really horror, but it's sort of adjacent. I saw Mickey 17. How was that? I liked it a lot. I know you're sort of... skeptical of... Lukewarm. Let's say lukewarm. Well, I mean, have you enjoyed any of Bong Joon-ho's movies?
I haven't been blown away by anything. Let's just put it that way. Okay. Well, I like it a lot. I get that. I think it's hard for people because it's very comedic. And if people haven't seen the host, like a lot of people have only seen Snowpiercer and Parasite and that's it. And then they don't. know anything else so then it's like um the comedic tone of this i think has hit people kind of weird but if you've seen okja or you've seen the host or
Oh, there's another way to head. Those are all kind of sprawling kind of comedic movies that also have like action and stuff going on. That's what this is. It's over the top. It's ridiculous. I liked it better than Okja, but significantly less than The Hoth. But that's easy because I love the host.
I think I prefer Parasite, Memories of Murder, that vibe from him. But I do enjoy his comedic stuff. And for all of the parts that are very funny in the movie, there's also a lot of like... gore and action and blood and stuff you know there's the other things you want from a uh sci-fi you know space movie with clones being stuff like that's that's still there it's just the tone is more comedic i think than some people expected so it's gotten kind of
But, you know, like I said, if people are into the host, I think it kind of works at that level, in my opinion. Cool. I can fuck with that. That's it. That's all I got, though. I have not done anything involving horror recently. Nothing at all? Nothing at all. Like, I mean, I guess, does severance count as far? You know what? It could, actually. I saw an interesting... I haven't watched it yet, but I saw an interesting video essay about...
One of the themes of severance being the horror of being black at work. Yes, that's fitting. That's why, even though in a way he's a villain, Milkshake is kind of... Everybody on the internet calls him Milkshake. Milkshake is still kind of compelling. He's still kind of a compelling character because even as you watch him try to do this stuff and try to fulfill this role, you also see him get dehumanized by this fucking corporation and you see his anger at it and it's like...
I keep wanting him to make a hero turn. I don't think he's going to, but I keep wanting him to just because I'm like, bro, they are fucking with you. Like, why do you put up with this, man? But anyway, yeah, Severance is kind of horror. It's more sci-fi than horror, I think, but it has a horror tone to it, I think. Yeah, I don't know. Like what you were saying is like pretty spot on about the kind of.
dilemma of that character when it comes to fulfillment of their duties at work and the way that the higher-ups view him. Also, just the bland, monotonous horror of office workers. that show, I had to take a, I had to take a break because it was like giving me like severe anxiety. Yeah. It is a version of hell. Like just this nonstop continuous. stream of consciousness with no breaks, no sleep, the same thing day in, day out.
Haven't really done anything. Wow. We're we're slacking on the horror stuff here, but that's I mean, to be fair, I'm fairly certain I'm in the midst of a midlife crisis. So I think I get a pass. But. I understand. Yeah. I'll be better soon. So we're going to take a quick break and we come back. We're going to talk about 1981's crime horror, in quotation marks, werewolf film.
Albert Finney and Gregory Hines' vehicle, The Wolfen. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Wolfen. Based on the novel, The Wolfen. We'll be right back. Orion Pictures presents Wolfen. in the rubble of your cities. The invisible terror. Chris. You scared me. They can sense the rhythm of your blood. Hear clouds pass overhead. Where you are blind. A force so deadly. They are. Somewhere in the world, every other day, a corporate executive is assassinated. Team her up with Wilson. Is that a trace?
Not a speck of metal. Nothing softer could have ripped and ravaged like this. Is it an animal? Well, it ain't human. How many people disappear without a trace? Something out there might be eating people. What do you think it was? You were being lo- By what? The carnivore. You got yourself some kind of meat-eater. What is it? It's wolves. They're only animals. They might be gods. In their eyes. Wolfen. And we are back to talk about 1981's Wolfen.
Per Wikipedia, the film follows a city cop who has been assigned to uncover what is behind a mysterious series of vicious murders. Originally, it was believed that the murders are animal attacks until the cop discovers an indigenous legend about wolves. Now, to be fair, originally they're thought to be terrorists, actually. Leftist terrorists, yeah. So...
Yes. This is the first time I've seen this movie somehow. Oh, have you never seen this before? I had never seen this before. Oh, I can't wait to hear what you thought of it. What stood out to me immediately was that this film is very, very... Very heavy on my people's sin. Like, just so much wise Native American stuff. I know, I know. Now, that being said, this is a film from 1981. It is based on a novel from 1978, so I think it gets a pass.
Well, to be fair, the novel does not have one moment of Native American. That's because Whitley Streber is a fucking American hero. I don't know if I would say that, but it's a different, it's just a different angle. And we can get into that in more detail later. But the Native American stuff is the fault of the movie. But I think...
The reason they do it is less just the most obvious, which is we need a magical native to explain this shit. It's that they can tie a magical native to the other theme of the movie. which is leftist terrorist organizations. Which is cool. The movie manages to smush together politics. and magic into a story that originally has neither politics nor magic. Those are not in the book at all. Yeah, but I kind of like the fact that the end result is like...
What if there were werewolves that wounded me? That's kind of cool. I agree. I agree. So we've talked about this before on this podcast. And if you follow my writing online at all, you know that one of my. kind of hard rules about a werewolf movie is that a werewolf movie lives and dies on its werewolf. Now, that being said, there are a few exceptions. Namely, An American War of London, which has one of my least favorite War of Designs in it. This movie...
What I liked most about this movie is that it kind of got around the design. Question, we'll say. Sure. By having, at times, just random, savage, naked men. Sure. And then actual wolves, which I thought kind of fit in with the whole like indigenous, fantastical kind of like Manitou elements of it. Uh, you know, they're just, they're just people that turn into wolves, not like anthropomorphic, like, but they're not people that turn it.
Yeah, they're, yeah, they're whatever. They just are. It's the connection to werewolves is a little less obvious in the movie, but it's the same thing in the movie as the book, which is there are no werewolves. What there is is a master race of super smart wolves that hunt us. The assumption of both the book and the movie being...
Those are much more scary than normal wolves. Although in the movie, our buddy Tom Noonan... makes the wolves sound scary too so if these are super wolves that's scary because wolves are so scary in the book they're like no wolves are nice what are we talking about here like the whole entire point is that everything we think about wolves and werewolves these things are what have been hunting us actual wolves are just slightly bigger dogs who are afraid of
And they have no interest in fucking with us whatsoever. And they're also not magic, unfortunately. Right. Well, again, in the book, no magic. It's literally just it's harder in the book. So so to help you guys understand. The movie really does go its own way. So it's not a fair comparison. But the one thing that is true because they talked about it during production is they couldn't recreate the wolfen from the book because the wolfen in the book look more like hyenas.
And that's awesome. The theory in the book is that these are fucked up monster things. And that's where the legend of werewolves comes from, is these things are what made people think werewolves are real. The other thing the book does that the movie tries to do, and we'll get into that in a little bit, but can't do as well, you get the wolf in perspective.
You get to hear what they're thinking and learn they're not monsters. They're just really good predators. And their preferred prey is people because, you know, we're big and they like hunting us. They're not mean. In fact, they're kind of afraid of us.
If only in the sense of individual humans, even large groups of humans they're not afraid of, but the idea that they would get found out and people would come after them, that's fucking terrifying. They're just smart enough that they have legends as a society. but they can't make anything. They have articulated paws, but they're not big enough to make technology. And they can talk to each other using a series of grunts and body movements, but they don't have language.
And so it's like they're basically as advanced as you can be without opposable thumbs. So they're kind of like if mankind had evolved from the canine as opposed from the monkey. Sort of. The comparison in the book is imagine if chimpanzees were big enough to hunt.
That's fucking terrifying. And I wish you hadn't said it. Also, also, also, you know, they are big enough to hunt us because there are several documented cases of fucking chimpanzees killing people for smart. Right. But these things are big enough to hunt us. I don't like this. I don't like this at all. Well, that's why the book's scary. But they're not magic in the book. In the book, it's just they're very good hunters. They've studied us for millennia. They know everything about us.
And they just hide. And what you learn eventually is, you know, it's not moral, but they actually mostly kill the old and the weak just because they really feel like, well, you shouldn't kill young ones because they've got a lot of life.
Find the people who are near death. Oh, God. They won't mind. And you just eat them. Now, of course, they do mind. But they're wolves. They don't know what we fucking think. You know, they're just like, the old ones are basically dead anyway. Just get them. And so. Anyways, I don't want to get into the book all that much more than that, but just to say what the movie does is, okay, we can't have...
Wolf monsters. We don't have the budget for that kind of special effects. We'll just use timber wolves, right? We'll just use actual wolves on set. And we can't show them just be really good hunters. We'll make them magical because, you know, the movie ends with my man on the basically the top floor of a fucking giant skyscraper and the wolf show. That's got to be magic. Now, they do this in the book, but the book's really clear. They just climb. They're really good climbers.
They fucking climb up the building. They jump balcony to balcony of an apartment building until they get to the top. It's fucked up, but it's not magic. In the movie, they're like, we can't show fucking Timberwolves Clive in a building. No one's going to believe that. So they make them basically magic. I think it works, man. And it's a way to. justify what is a really unjustifiable trope of
magic native people. But I got to say, the way the natives are portrayed here is just that they know more than us. In the end, they're not really magic at all. They're as afraid of these things as we are. They just know something that we don't fucking know.
Yeah. And, and even then when they tell, they do this whole info drop and then they go, but don't listen to us. It's just stupid native stuff. Like it's all a joke, right? Like you shouldn't believe any of this. And I'm just like, fuck, it's so cynical. Like, even though the movie still does the crime of like. not actually hiring indigenous people to be in the movie. Like there's some, but all the, you know, Edward James almost is definitely not indigenous. So like.
It's very much like it fucks up in a lot of ways, but it doesn't fuck up as bad as it could. Absolutely not. And it really makes a point of saying, like, the thing about the politics of it all is the characters of the movie are not. into these various leftist groups that they think. So to get back to the beginning of the movie, in the very beginning of the movie, sort of the inciting incident is that unlike what we kind of can assume these Wolfen are doing usually, they kill a rich...
And their bodyguard. And they kill these rich people and they leave them out there. And we don't really find out why till later in the movie. And it's a really pivotal scene. Now, I will say, Albert Finney is this detective. There's a lot of things I don't think he was catching. But one of the things is like... Anyone who knows anything about movies.
The first time you see that development in the rich guy's office, you know that's why the wolf had killed him. Like, you just know that. But Finney doesn't know because he doesn't even know it's wolves yet. You know, he thinks it's terrible. Right. So he sees the development. He just kind of shrugs it off. And it's like. No, that's what's going on here. You're about to take away their habits.
And they're in the movie smart enough to be like, well, fuck this guy. Like, we're just going to take him out. It's kind of awesome. Yeah. It's really a movie in a way about gentrification, you know, as much as it's about. The same way the book is, the environment, our custodianship of the environment. In the movie, it's a lot more like they really show you South Bronx, which, Justin, if you want to be... Oh my God. I was going to say, I was going to talk.
read okay you know what I'm about to say no I was just going to talk about the way the fucking Bronx looks in this movie okay if you want to be depressed that's depressing if you want to be depressed about the passage of Read comments on either Letterboxd or IMDb of people seeing this movie who don't know the history of New York. Oh, Jesus. Why did they film this in a bombed out city? Why didn't they just film it in New York?
Motherfucker, they show you the street. You can look up where it was. That's what it looked like then. It looked like a fucking war zone. In fact, I was like looking at what it looks like today because like in the production, you can see where they shot it at. Yep. Because I was like fascinated by the way this movie – like this movie looks amazing.
Like it looks like a fucking dream. It's like, like, have you ever, when I say like a dream, I mean, it's like, you know, it's like, um, I used to dream a lot about the Asbury Park convention. But it wasn't really the Asbury Park. Like I'd go there and see like a band play and it would be like 20 times bigger than what it was in real life. Like that's how this movie feels. I've had a lot of nightmares about my high school.
Yes, exactly. The nightmare always breaks when I realize this building is nothing like why is this building so large and gothic? That's nothing what my high school is like. This movie feels honestly like they filmed it in the fucking, like, remnants of... uh, Dresden. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, and if people are confused by that, if you are younger and you're confused by that, you haven't seen movies from this time.
That's how politicians at the time described it. You know, 1981, 1980 was when Reagan visited New York and saw the South Bronx and literally said, it looks like London or Dresden or someplace else where that's been. And he's not wrong. Like this is what was going on at the time. And I think it really adds to this feeling of desperation, but also this feeling of like.
There's something in the shadows that you're not seeing. I listened a little bit to an episode of the projection booth where they talked about this movie. And one of the guests said something that I really think is really interesting. There's a moment where. What's the name of the actor who's the medical examiner? That's Gregory Hines. This is his first major film. No shit. I think so. I think he had smaller roles, but this is like his first like big.
And he at one point says something about when, remember, one of the best parts of the movie is they drop the rich lady's head. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he says something about, you know, during the French Revolution, they cut off. And you could pick them up and like show them their body. Show them their body. The head was alive long enough to show them their body. And this guy, the guest on the projection, we said, that's in a way kind of what the movie's about. That in a sense.
Our culture, our society is that head. We've already been cut off. Our body's already dead. We just haven't learned it yet. We just don't know it yet. It's interesting. And it's so interesting because the book is not that. The book is... we've been sharing space with these things forever we just didn't know now that we know what will we do and honestly it kind of ends in a way that's like also they know we know now so we might also get it's the fear the whole time from these things
once we get found out, then that's going to be dangerous. But the way the book ends, it's kind of like, well, or it's going to be dangerous for humans because now there's no reason not to for them to just go crazy on us. So it's like, you know, who knows who knows where it's going to go, which is whatever the movie. All of this dead New York, all of this New York falling apart, it really feels like...
And the only people who know we lost something, know that something is wrong, know that there is a rot at the heart of America. are the other people who are discarded, right? Like are the other folks who have been broken. And the movie, for a movie that I actually think doesn't have consistent...
politics per se, like it's kind of all over the place. They talk a lot about colonialism. They're not afraid to say colonialism. They're not afraid to say all manner of like leftist ideas at this 1981 horror movie that are not in the book. It's not like, oh, we had to put that stuff in there because of the book.
They just put it in the movie. It's crazy shit. No, I mean, it's a movie that's pretty on the nose about, like... I guess you could say almost like this like Hobbesian natural state of people living these just like feral creatures that look like people. No, they don't look like people. They're just wolves. Okay. This is the same mistake that they, so on the projection booth, they were saying when they were kids. And I got to say.
I'm being mean to Justin right now I thought the same thing when I was a kid Yeah. The Native Americans are not the Wolfen. They don't turn into the Wolfen. Edward James always just acts like that to fuck with the cop. It's a very good performance. Oh, see, that went completely over my fucking head. No, all that is happening is the natives know that there is this race of super wolves that have lived here forever.
And again, the only difference is that in the book, they were also in Europe. But in the movie, no, no, no, this is an American thing. That's why the indigenous folks know about it and we don't. And they've been here forever. They're basically gods. And they're kind of magic. And I do think because the movie is kind of pieced together weird and... It really had a troubled production. At a certain point, the assistant director was brought on to be the main director.
The original cut from the first director was four hours long. And so there was a lot of issues on set. So the movie is a bit... messy, but it's also beautiful. It has a lot of stuff going on initially, you know, all this stuff that we were talking, we're talking about with all this terrorism. There's a whole like angle where the rich people have their own security force. That's more advanced than the police.
And they start basically going after all these leftist terrorist groups that they think might be responsible for this assassination, quote unquote. A lot of that stuff was cut out of the movie. and then was put back in. And there are some parts of the movie that have been cut out that aren't even in the Blu-ray because of rights issues.
There's a bar scene. I don't think we even see him in the Blu-ray, so I don't know what version you saw, where Tom Waits is the bartender. Did you see Tom Waits in this movie? No. I rented this on Fandango. Tom Waits, in the original cut of this movie, and especially in the apparently European television cut of this movie... Tom Waits is a bartender and they're playing a Tom Waits song in the bar while he's the bartender. Of course.
And according to the, I've met this dude many times, but our friend over, I think it's Matt, over at the projection booth, because he's been on Cinema Smorgasbord a few times. He said that he's read the script. It's in the script. Like in the script, it has the Tom Waits.
So it's like, did he know when he wrote that song in that he was going to get Tom Waits to be the bartender? I don't fucking know, but it's in the script. That's crazy. That's crazy stuff. Anyways, all that is to say, the movie's kind of chopped up. So I think when you watch it, if you're confused... Are the Native Americans the wolfen or are the wolfen separate from Native Americans?
You're not wrong to be confused. I was confused when I was a kid. On this viewing, I said, well, these are not, no, the Native Americans are not. And then I listened to that projection booth and they all three of these folks said the first time I watched it.
I thought this was a werewolf movie. They just turned into wolves instead of like wolf creatures. And it's only recently that I'm like, Oh no, they're not related at all. They're different. There's no relationship there. I mean, either way, it's this theme of, of. of the other lurking in the shadows. Oh, 100%. Yes. In the fucking destitute ruins of what used to be great.
Well, and that's the magic, the whole magic. It doesn't quite fit the magic native trope in that these Native Americans are not actually trying to save. They are actually uninterested in helping them with their fate. They're just like, yeah, they're scary wolves or they're not. Maybe they don't exist. I don't know. See you later, cop.
Like it's like very, it's very hostile towards Albert Finney with good reason, by the way, this man is a monster and it's very funny to know that Albert Finney's performance. is not that different than the character in the book. Like, I really feel like he nails it. But I also think... In the movie, he gets the, you know, fuck the. psychologist lady and it's so unbelievable like there's no moment for you to go yeah she loves him that makes sense
Yeah, they're falling for each other. It's just, hey, this old man that gets to have sex with this random psychologist lady. And the character's name in the movie is the character's name for the name of the character who's the partner of the cop in the book. but it's a totally different, not totally different, but a very different. So I just was like funny, like watching the movie and being like,
Oh man, Albert Finney, really? Like, is this what we're doing? But he really does have that like, I'm a cranky cop. And that kind of works for the movie, right? It absolutely works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, I could have done with more of him and Gregory Hines just kind of hanging out, honestly. That would have been cool. But it's still like I love Gregory. Also, there's a little bit of a joke that I didn't pick up on the first time I watched it, but someone...
You know, the wolf in are not werewolves, so they're not affected by. However, they do kill Gregory Hines after he moons Albert Finch. after he reveals the Black Moon.
And it's like, is that a coincidence? Or did they want to do it that way to be like, well, they kind of come out when he... moons him it's like I didn't even think about that but I'm like fuck if that was a coincidence and they didn't think about that ahead of time I'd be surprised because I think there's a lot of like interesting shit in this movie that I think Yeah. You know what's crazy is like, I'm reading the synopsis of the novel and...
We've kind of been dancing around this, but this is based on the novel The Wolfen by Whitley Strieber. And Whitley Strieber is known mostly for the fact... He wrote a book called Communion that is about his alleged non-fictional visitations by non-human intelligences, quote-unquote. He was abducted by aliens. And I'm reading what's crazy is like I'm reading the synopsis of the novel and this came out before like years before communion did. But I'm intrigued by the theme he has of.
of their being amongst humanity an inhuman sort of like presence that just lives amongst us. And what's crazy is even though, you know, you had said like a lot of the more like leftist environmental stuff isn't in the book. Whitley Strieber is a renowned... He is very, very, very... Environmentalism. I mean, it's a terrible movie, but like... No, no, no. I think there is a theme of environmentalism in the book, but it's not presented in such a political way. It's just a general feeling of...
we don't understand the planet and we think we do. It's kind of, yeah, that's, that, that's kind of his whole thing. Yeah. And there's a real feeling of like, we use technology because we don't know how to like smell. Like also one of the, yeah. Yeah. Like the Wolf and it's like, really, they just have really good sense. That's more amazing than their huge, scary bodies. The scary bodies are scary.
But the fact is they can smell anything forever. And the cops, when they realize how good the smell of your average wolf is, the cops who believe these things are real are like. Well, how could we fucking hide? There's nowhere we could go. They're going to find us anywhere. It's really like the fear becomes not that they're magic.
It's that they're just really good at being hunters, which is terrifying in and of itself. Yeah. But in the movie, they're definitely magical. They definitely disappear out the window. They like magically show up on the top window and it works. I'm not criticizing the movie at all for that. And when I was a kid, I didn't, the first time I saw this, I didn't understand a lot of it. Like a lot of it kind of.
click with me. But even though they were wolves instead of wolf men, when they just show up on that top floor growling and starling out of nowhere, like magically being on the top floor, that fucked me up. I was scared of that shit. Yo, I'm gonna say this. I am a renowned dog lover. There's a good chance I'm going to die because I approached the wrong animal thinking, oh, no, it can't hurt me. If not friend, why friendship?
The wolves in this movie, even though there were no effects. Yo, wolves are fucking scary. Yeah. When they're doing like threat displays, that is nightmare. That was so upsetting when they're like, they're like in the, especially when they're like an office building. There was just something that was so like, what's the word I'm looking for? It was very like.
anachronistic where it's like this like savage beast in this like pinnacle of civilization just being like I will fucking kill you and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it also how the fuck did I get up here I mean, it's funny because the book really undersells wolves being dangerous. I think it's fair to say our fear of wolves has been overstated. But the idea that they're not scary at all is very weird. And he really hits that in the book in a way that I don't think is fair.
And then the irony then of them using actual wolves on set, which, by the way, means they had snipers on set trained on those wolves in case the wolves decided to make fiction reality. That's the rule, man. You can't have those wild, dangerous animals on set without a gun trainer. That's fucked up. It's so fucked up. That's very fucked up. But that's like, that's what it was. And so like the irony of like.
The book that this is based on suggests that wolves are fine, but on this set, we got a gun ready to go because I don't want them to kill Albert Finney on set. And there was no problem. They were fine, actually. But it's just part of the safety requisite at the time. I think rules have definitely changed as of now. Yeah, there is something terrifying about them. And I think that...
The other thing the movie does, so in the, like I said, in the book, you get some of their thoughts. You get some idea of like what they're. The movie doesn't feel comfortable doing that, and I'm glad it doesn't try. What it does give us, though, is what I think, and you can tell me what you think of this, I think is like... One of, obviously... the most obvious inspiration for Predator vision in the Predator. Absolutely. His jaws or, you know, those are like the progenitors.
But literally in this movie, the color changes and the sound, the sound effect in this movie for Wolfen Vision is so similar to Predator Vision that it's like, fuck, man, they definitely were thinking about this movie. And in the context of the movie, it works because you realize like... this is not what a dog would see, right? Like what we're being shown right now, it's not that these are just big dogs.
This is fucked what's happening right now. This is a scary thing and they're everywhere and they're watching us and it's scary. And I love that. I think it's really good. The other part being it's more of a big deal in the book, but it does happen in the movie. They make a baby noise. Yeah, they lure people in with like the sound, which again, if you know me, if you've talked to me for more than 10 minutes. There is a book in my library. I believe it's called Disembodied Voices.
that is about the reoccurring phenomenon where people will hear. A lot of times it's a mother hearing the voice of a child. where there'll be like, like an example would be like, a lot of the time this happens like out in like the country, where it'll be like, a woman will be in her backyard, and she'll clearly hear her child calling for her in the woods. And she'll be like, eh.
Something about this doesn't seem right. And then the kid will walk out the back door and it's like, well, what was that in the woods? Like what was doing that? A lot of kids, there was a TikTok trend a few years ago where there was kids doing the fake skinwalker where they would have, that's not my mom out there and the bush is calling for me. They do that in this movie with the sound of a baby crying and it is fucking chill.
I don't know if it's just me, but there is something about an inhuman intelligence kind of pretending to be a person to lure us to our demise. That is like straight up night. Yeah, I love that they worked that in because it's definitely there in the book too. And it really makes them upsetting. But I do think like... Back to what we were saying before about the, you know, what are the Wolfen and what is their relationship to?
in the movie, I think part of the reason we think they must be related is the performances. I don't think it's a good idea to cast Edward James. not who he is however my man kills it it's it's it's what it's a really strong performance and it's not just him either but he's the like one of the main focuses and what we do see at a certain point is he uses one of those
That's called a bull roarer. Yeah, he uses that at one point. It almost feels at times in the movie like he's calling the wolf in fourth. You know what I mean? That's how the movie opens up, right? Yeah, he's the first person we see. Yeah, it's him on the... spinning that thing and you know there is a sense in which I think there's a comparison being made between these eternal creatures
and the dangers that we're afraid of. Like immediately, like it's pretty clear that this is some sort of animal attack. But because of the world that we live in, they're like, well, must be terrorists. Let's start bringing in all the terrorists and start yelling at them. Like they just start yelling at leftists. Like that's the immediate response of the security agency. And I just think there's something interesting about that, especially because.
That theme of looking, I think, is still there. We see this security agency using all this technology that in 1981 probably felt fucking space. Yeah. Trying to analyze these people and audio and video and whatever. And meanwhile, they can't see what the Wolfen can see. Right. The Wolfen are always watching. And it's like that relationship. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The ways that we're compensating for our limitations with technology I think is a real theme in the movie and it really comes across. something about that then in the context of this 80s granted you do see other parts of the city it's not all south bronx but some of the scarier moments are in the south bronx and you're just like And it's nice there now. As you said, it's not the same thing.
It's some intense stuff. But there's something about that environment that speaks to something primal and a question about... predators, right? These rich folks who got killed by this wolfen. also predators they want to move into this place that people have been forced out of and turn it into a rich place to for them to make money yes right and the wolfen they stopped that not
Granted, not for a moral reason. They're not morally offended. They're like, hey, you're taking away our hunting ground. But still, there is something about it that feels primal. And in that way, you know... You can't say the Wolfen are some sort of like political hero.
They eat the weak and the people on the margins and, you know, drug addicts and homeless folks. Like, you can't be like the wolf and are good. Like, that's not what's going on here. But there is a sense in which... there are forces within the movie, there are forces that are so primal that our arrogance means we're fucking with things we don't understand.
And I think that is powerful, even if we're not like, and the wolf and our heroes for the working class. It's like, no, that's not what's going on here. But they are willing to go after powerful people because they just are trying to protect. their place, where they are. It's almost like a predators versus predators, you know, relationship. Yeah, I could, yeah.
Anyways, I like this movie a lot. I think it's really beautiful, like shot wise. And I think it's fun and it's not perfect. I definitely think there are some. Silly stuff with Albert Finney and whatever, but considering how fucked up the production was, the fact that so many themes still stick in the movie, we still get...
the action stuff. We still get all the politics. We still get the weird tension. There's even a moment where the security team talks about just like a firefight they had in downtown Manhattan to get these fucking terrorists. They just are like, we'll tell the press about it later.
What the fuck is even like, there's so much stuff going on. I just love it. I just love, I love a lot about this movie and it's a movie. The first time I saw it when I was a kid, I fucking hated it. Fake werewolf movie. It's a fake werewolf movie. And now I'm like, no, that's not what it is, man. It's a whole other thing. And in a way, it's still a werewolf movie because it suggests...
We are afraid of werewolves because of these things. These things have really put the fear in us more than just wolves. Yeah. It's crazy. This movie is like, this is like one of those movies that is like, would you say this has like a cult following? Yeah, I think it's a movie that did not land. I mean, this came out right around Howling, right? And American Werewolf in London. It just couldn't compete with those, right? But I think over time, people fucking love it. They love...
so much about it. It's such an interesting mixture of themes and visuals and there's a lot of specific gore in it. I think it has its fans. It's also one last thing I want to bring up is how like this, you know, we had mentioned earlier how this is based on a novel by Whitley Schreiber who also wrote, he also wrote the book that The Hunger is based on. Oh, okay. And I just – there's something that is – I don't know, kind of like tickles me about how this, uh...
This guy wrote two of the most unconventional, he wrote work. Two of the most unconventional films about two classic horror movie monsters are based on books by a guy who is mostly known for claiming that aliens stuck things in his wiener yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is – there's just something that's like – I don't know. That is – it's not synchronicity that's striking me because I don't believe in that. But –
I don't know. There's just something that I really appreciate the fucking oddness of it all. Yeah. So yeah. I love The Hunger too. So there you go. Yeah. Great movie. We're going to take a quick break and we come back. We're going to talk about 2014's horror drama film, Late Phases, also known as... I can't see you, but you smell beautiful. Did you just move next? Hi! Mom, didn't think you'd still be awake. What the hell is that? What is the boy? Dolores! Dolores! Close!
None of the neighbors saw any sign of this assailant. It's just an animal attack. This has happened before. Attacks like these happen all the time. Please stay in your house, keep the doors closed until we sort this out, okay? Seems like such a nice place to live People don't come to places like this to live They come here to die Can you make silver bullets? Yeah Can you do silver shotgun shells?
And we are back to talk about 2014's hard drama film, not directed by Larry Fessiden, which I thought until I saw this movie. I rewatched this movie for this episode. Now, uh... When this movie first came out like 10 or 11 years ago, I loved this movie. And I still really enjoy this film. I think the performances are great. I think that the wear of design is... unorthodox and creepy in a way that few werewolf movies are but it hasn't aged it hasn't aged I forgot that there's like a long, like...
I don't know. It just kind of plods along at times. Okay. And it wasn't as like streamlined as I remember it. Because I remember when this movie first came out, I was like, holy fuck, this is like Home Alone and Die Hard meets like fucking dog. Sure. And I don't know. This time around, I wasn't as fucking jazzed. Is this the first time you rewatched it since you saw it? I've seen this movie twice now.
Okay. I still think it's pretty good. Yeah, I still like it. I think it does suffer. I think when you first see it. there are enough surprises that you're not hit by some of the weaker aspects of the development of sort of like the community he's in. Because really, we only get to know Ambrose. We get to know the priest a little bit. And then there's another character who we see a little bit.
A lot of the other people, they're just sketches. They don't really exist in a way that is that compelling. But the first time you watch it... holds its cards kind of close to the chest. So there's both. you're watching Ambrose kind of figure out what's going on, but there's also the mystery of where it's going. I think on second viewing, without some of that mystery, you realize like...
It does take its time a little bit. I don't know. I still liked it. I think maybe a little more than you did on my second viewing, but I also was less in love with it on my first viewing. So maybe I just didn't have the disappointment aspect. Well, let me. So... Okay.
I still think this, like, I still think that, is it pronounced Nick Dimitri? I fucking love that dude. That dude, like, everything I've seen that guy in has been, like, incredible. And obviously, you know, this is a movie in which... you know, spoiler alert, the movie is kicked off by the dog dying. It's very sad. And like, I was still with, I think it kind of lost me. I remember when I first saw this movie, part of the charm of it was this blind elderly man being like,
A fucking werewolf killed my fucking dog. And like there's the scene where he's ordering the silver bullets and he's like, yeah, I want 20 silver bullets. And it's like, is he warning like in case the person is like around them, like just letting him know he's coming for him. And there's something that's like so charming and like. gripping about this guy who's had everything taken away from him. And he's just like, I'm going to kill the thing that killed my dog. Like I respect that. But once.
Once, I don't want to say the novelty, but once that shine is gone... My god like this there's so many scenes where it's like what's his face? Tom Noonan again in this movie. We did a Tom Noonan double feature. Tom Noonan and Lance Guest just like talking. And I'm like, what the fuck? I don't remember this movie being this fucking like. dull I guess I don't know I don't know that I would say dull but I will say that a lot of the movie rests
at times on Lance Guest and how compelling you find him. And on second viewing, I thought, I don't know, man, the last Starfighter. Excuse me, you mean that's fucking, that's Michael Brody we're talking about. Oh, that's right. But he's in The Last Starfighter. He is, yeah. Who's he in The Last Starfighter? I forget the guy's name. Yeah, whatever. It doesn't matter. This dude just isn't doing it for me. Again, not in a terrible way. I don't think he's bad.
But I think his performance is a little bit more... surfacy, you know, and that could be the script. I don't want to put that on him, but he's not that compelling the same way as like the church ladies. Not very compelling. It's even his son. Like I like Ethan Embry.
All he is is mad at his dad or concerned about his dad. Like there's just not much there for him to do. And he's a fan. Ethan Embry's fucking fantastic. It really is. I really do think it's just like the source material. Like the script is just like. I don't know if it's like the director didn't know how to deal with, I guess, like transitory scenes where there aren't like werewolf fight scenes. Because, again, I cannot emphasize enough how much this movie delivers on werewolf.
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fantastic. But like all the scenes where there's like... It's like we have Nick Dimitri and you're like, OK, that dude is a fully formed character. Yep. He's there. He's in it. Great. And any scene where Ethan Embry is like, hey, dad, ever since mom died, it's like I. That's not doing it for me. You're just bringing it. You're adding unnecessary weight to this movie.
Well, and it's, you know, there's a good section of the movie. We're spoiling it here a little bit. Just, you know, sorry, guys. We're spoiling it, but it's just a fact.
For a section of the movie, for you to buy into Tom Noonan as a red herring, you're supposed to be like... got to be tom noonan he's been a werewolf in every other movie he's been in sure sure sure um but uh but honestly it's almost like tom noonan is the other subtle character in the movie so immediately i'm like well it's not him It just isn't him. And that really leaves, if you haven't seen this before, you're going to think, well, it's either the church ladies or it's the crazy.
And bada bing, bada boom, it's the crazy guy. And so when so much of it is laying on the surprise of that, it just doesn't go. And really the only part it starts to pick up then towards the end, get a little more exciting is. His whole plan of, well, I'll just bite a bunch of other people in the neighborhood, in the old folks area or whatever the fuck this is. And then I'll have a whole team of werewolves. Only then once the action starts.
A lot of these werewolves are not very helpful. They just kind of get shot and die. My man kind of cuts through them pretty fucking quickly. So it's kind of like, which don't get me wrong, I get that. Like, that's cool that he does that. But like, also... It kind of makes some of the action earlier in the movie feel a little bit like a waste of time. And anyways, we're being kind of negative, and I don't want to be too negative. I think when it comes to...
Film Fest level werewolf movie that a lot of people have not heard of. It's still pretty strong. I still think it's pretty strong. And I think first viewing, it really pays off. But I just I think you're right that like. It doesn't hold up, you know, no matter how many times you watch an American world. It holds up, you know, even the howling it's, it's, it's, there's no part where you're like, well, I know what's going to happen.
This movie, it's just a little less interesting when you can see what's going to happen. I think, I will say, I do think this movie is one of the better werewolf movies released in the last like 25 years or so. Obviously, it's not Dog Soldiers, which is the greatest werewolf movie. But, yeah, a lot of it, a lot of the films... drive rests upon like who killed his dog and then it's like oh shit and then once you find out you're like well okay now i just want to see those people dead
Those wolves dead. And it just feels like everything else is just once we get to know, once that guy, once the gentleman realizes their number is up. the werewolf realizes their number is up. You're just waiting for the final showdown. And it's a shame because... I feel like we're repeating ourselves or I'm repeating myself. And that this is a good movie, but it's just...
I don't know. It just feels like, you know, once you know what's going to happen, you're just waiting for the really cool thing to happen and everything else. By and large, it's just like filler until that happens. Well, it's not clear that everything pays off, right? Like, I don't know. When you're watching it, you kind of think whatever's going on with this giant cross headstone.
It's going to be fucking sick. Yeah. This is going to be so cool. It's not that cool. It kind of doesn't really go anywhere. And a lot feels that way. And it makes sort of the ending feels a little. anticlimactic in a way. I just feel like as much as I like this character, Ambrose, and I do think he makes a very... like badass stand at the end, the movie thematically, you know, it doesn't go like, okay, cool. So then he dies and he killed a bunch of werewolves.
OK, what it just feels like there's more there's more emotional things going on. Again, if we want the movie to just be, hey, this blind vet is just going to murder a bunch. Cool, but I think the movie suggests more depth than it delivers. And because it's so cool, you're less likely to notice that on first viewing.
But eventually you kind of realize like, well, I don't know why add all this extra layer, extra nuance and layers if it's never going to pay off. It's never going to become anything. We're just going to like have him die. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. It's just a little unsatisfying. And I think it's unfair a little bit because we did pair it with a movie that I think is generally mixed.
for what it is. I think this movie, it's hard. It's a lower budget. Well, it was not directed by Fessenden. It is a glass-eye picks movie, so you know it. And it does really good work with what it has, but I just think the script is a little weak and that comes across in the way the movie plays out in the end. It feels almost like the story itself is kind of... Yeah. I don't know. I...
Like I did a piece on werewolf design and I, you know, years ago for this, Justin, and this movie got like, it's not one of my favorite werewolf movies, but I like the design is. There's something that's unsettling enough about it where I think that design kind of carries the movie a lot too. That makes it a lot more enjoyable.
But I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to not recommend it. Like, I would definitely say, oh, if you like werewolf movies, you're going to like this movie. But it's just not as, like, hard-hitting as it was the first. I think that's fair. It's a fair and balanced critique.
Yeah. I mean, it also suffers from like having Lance Guest in it. All I can think about is the little girl from Jaws of Revenge who passed away. And that bums me out like every time I see him in a movie because he was one of her pallbearers at her funeral. Yeah. Okay. That's nothing to do with anything. It's just a thing in my fucking head that is there. I met Lance Guess. He's a very nice guy. I'm sure he's great. I think, side note, his transformation scene is also...
It's interesting because it's very intense, but there's a couple of shots where it's like, I would have taken another go at that, guys. I don't know. You could see the zippers a lot. That being said, again, this is a glass-eye production. Yeah, it's not like they had all the money in the world. And for what it is, they do good work with what they have. Absolutely. Even though the execution isn't perfect.
The creature design, it really is unlike anything I've seen. You know what I was thinking of, what it reminded me of? Have you ever seen The Giver? Yes. Oh my God. Yes. Yeah. So there's like the female zone, zone, zone annoyed, zone annoyed, whatever. There's the female monster. It kind of reminded me of that where it's like, okay, that's definitely like Wolf E.
But it's, like, there's something that's, like, other, like, there's something, like, alien about it almost. Like, I don't mean alien as in, like, gray alien. I mean, like, alien as, like... It's other and it's like unknown. Like what that's. Yeah. Like, um, which I appreciate. Like I, I really enjoyed like an unorthodox square off design and this movie definitely delivers them. If not. In that way, too, it makes me think of Wolf and Only in the sense of a lot.
You know, do we call them werewolves because we don't know what the fuck else to call it? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that thing doesn't look like a wolf. It is a monster and it did used to be a human. So it's a werewolf. But like. what wolf looks like that well maybe it doesn't have to look like a wolf you know what i mean like maybe that's just what we called it because we didn't know what the fuck it was
Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of ties in with the idea of like going back to the wolf and where like, I mean, this thing, it appears during the full moon. That's undeniable. Yeah. But like, what if this thing is just the inspiration for what we think of as a werewolf? And like, we just saw it and we're like, that might be a wolf. Sure, it's a wolf. And that's where the legend came from. Like, I'm willing enough, I'm willing to go along with that.
I feel that. Yeah. But again, if you're a person for whom a dog dying in a movie is going to take you out of it, maybe skip this movie. I agree, although I will say this director has a lot of faith in the killing power of a German shepherd. I'll also say this is one of the few movies where I think the dog dying is an essential part of the plot and isn't just done for shock value. 100%. 100%. And it works. It also explains this character's...
It explains a lot about the character in a way that actually makes sense. Yeah. But this dog holds its own against a werewolf for a long time. Of all the dog dying scenes, I'm like, well. It's a pretty tough dog. Pretty tough dog. He fucks that. He gives it. He doesn't quite. He's not like what's his face from Bad Moon, where it literally ends with the dog like dropping the fucking hammer on the werewolf. Right. But.
I appreciate that about this movie, that it delivered an emotional blow that didn't feel cheap and it didn't feel like underhanded. Unlike, oh, I don't know, most movies were a dog. Those wolfing kill some dogs and it is with much disrespect. I don't like that. Why are they going to kill dogs? Because they're police dogs and the police are trying to find them and they're not trying to find them. They're trying to find something.
And the wolfen are just like, dogs? Oh, yeah, we got this. And then they fuck up the dogs real bad. I don't like that. I mean. Well, that was our 40th thousandth werewolf episode. Yeah. Because we do love us a good werewolf movie. It's true. And wait, you're. Remind me, you're skeptical of werewolf movies, correct? Yeah, because I think that oftentimes they're bad because we can't make the way.
cool and then when we do make them look cool the rest of the movie is stupid so like bad moon would be an example of that where bad moon as a movie isn't great but And the CGI transformation is the worst thing that's ever been in a movie. Once the werewolf exists, that's a badass werewolf. That is a fucking killer werewolf. But that movie really, they're like, werewolf looks cool. Everything else is just window dressing. And it's like.
I don't know about that. I would also argue, even though the CGI looks bad now, I don't particularly like the Underworld movies. I like the design of the werewolves in it, but I do think those movies are kind of like stupid as well. Especially the... I forget his fucking name. Like the alpha werewolf. He's just big fucking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that creature design with the entirely white eyes is fucking chilling. And since we're on the subject of like big budget, you know.
fantastical werewolf movies in the last 20 or so years, I think the werewolf design from Van Helsing is pretty cool. Again, not a great movie, but... No, terrible movie, but cool werewolf. I'm just saying, it's like... We had this conversation. I think it was on Cinepunks, actually. We did with Josh, yeah. And, you know, Josh was like, obviously, werewolf movies are awesome.
And I'm like, other way around, my man, because I just think it's so much easier to do a good vampire movie, which is not to say that vampire movies are always good. There's lots of bad. But it's so much easier to do a compelling vampire movie than it is a compelling vampire movie. That being said, when we do win, when we get a American Wolf in London howling, you know, dog soldiers, wolfen.
You can win with this plot idea, but again, Wolfen had to throw in fucking Native American terrorists to make it work. You know, like, are you willing to go the extra mile if your werewolf design isn't that compelling? You know, are you willing to do all kinds of other shit to make the movie work?
that's what you're going to have to do, you know? And it's just so rare to be like, this movie's good and the werewolves look cool. It's just very, very rare. So it is what it is. Yeah. Well, that's the episode. Thank you for listening. Be sure to head to patreon.com backslash CinePunks to see how you can support this podcast and the others on the CinePunks network.
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