The Community Organizer: Dr. Joel C. Hunter - Part I

He's the former senior pastor at Northland church in Longwood, Florida, and was a member former member of the president of Barack Obama's advisory council on faith based and neighborhood partnerships. Dr. Hunter. Welcome. Dr. Joel Hunter: Thank you. It's good to be with you.

And for that, I want to thank you for all the people that you know, and all the people that you don't know. So I hope today's conversation will be a part of your legacy, helping people. Dr. Joel Hunter: Well, thank you, Marshall. I hope so, too. Um, and the subject that you all are discussing today is one that, Marshall and I know personally, um, and of course, Steve, um, with your son, you know, the grief, uh, as well. Um, and so we're all in this together.

Let me change my mind on the whole Dr. Hunter thing, call me Joel. We can't, we can't, we can't be, we can't be talking about it, this personal and using the titles. Okay? Let's just go with first name, and, um, and thanks for inviting me on this is, uh, this has been a long part of my life. My earliest remembrances, um, are that I lost my dad when I was four years old. Um, and I still remember my aunt picked me up and held me over the coffin and I'm four years old.

And, um, and, but you had to know her. She was, she was a little bit crazy, um, but really neat person. And she said, Joel, I want you to do something. I want you to touch him. And I thought, oh my goodness, first of all, don't drop me, cause I'm going to be in that coffin. And secondly, what do you mean? And so I did, I touched him and of course, It was just cold. The corpse was cold. And she said, she said, you know, I had you do that because I want you to know he's not in there.

Um, he's with God now. And, um, this is his body and we're, we're grateful, um, that, um, that he, um, And I can't remember exactly what she said, but we're, we're happy for him. Um, and, and so as I, as I worked through that as a four year old, I mean, theres not a lot of work for a four year old accept that my dad isn't hear anymore. Um, but yeah, my earliest remembrances of grief, we're kind of. I miss him. I'm worried about my mom.

Um, I don't know how we're going to make it because we weren't rich to begin with. Um, ,but I'm okay for my dad because my aunt explained that the essence of life isn't contained in a physical body. And, and so, for me at the beginning, grief was a mixed bag. Um, it didn't take away any of the personal pain, um, or the fear about, okay, how do you go on and live life without somebody you always thought you'd have.

Um, but yet in the midst of that, there was a sense of, you know, There's more to this than what's right in front of me. Uh, and I'm, and I am glad for him, um, because it must be great there. Um, and, and so, and then as growing up, when I was growing up, somebody told me, I didn't know where I got this, but somebody told me that when people die, they become a star in the sky. Well, of course, you know I was, what, I was four years old, so, so I thought, well, okay.

And so I'd go to bed and I'd look out my window and I'd pick out a star. And I just talked to my dad. You know, that's how I went to sleep every night and just talking to my dad. Um, and so again, um, it was, it was part of my grieving process to somehow identify the, the, the essence of, of life that never dies and to have that as a part of my ongoing life. Um, and so, um, in, in the more recent, um, hurt and tragedies of my life, uh, that part really never went away.

Because it's been a part of my life as long as I can remember. And so I think that helped. Joel, let me ask you this because I really appreciate you talking about your life because I look at my life. My parents lost two children, two brothers, um, I didn't know either one of them. One was older than me, one was younger than me, they both lived about two or three years old and they passed away. And my mother to the day she passed away still grieved for my two brothers that I didn't know.

And I just knew growing up that the loss of a child was a different, special type of grief. And all of our listeners know we got three fathers here that have experienced that. And with my passing of my son, Matt and my passing of my mother, two days later, I unfortunately he had to deal with double grief and I'll, I'll tell you, I've said this many times, my mother was the greatest mother anybody could ever have, like, she was the quintessential Jewish mother.

She worried about me my entire life. She was a Bellevue nurse in New York city. So before the coronavirus came into the world, I was told to wash my hands my entire life, that's nothing new. My mother told me to wash my hands a hundred times a day, even when I was in my sixties. So this is nothing new for me. So my, my mother prepared me very well for this pandemic, but, but I wasn't prepared obviously for grieving the loss of my son and my mother within two days.

And I'll tell you that Matt's passing was July 22nd, 2018. So it's a little over two years now, and I still haven't grieved my mother. I don't have enough room to do that. I hope I will, but I don't. And if you could open up, because I know that you also dealt with double grief, am I correct? You lost your granddaughter and your son. If you could comment on that, I'd be very interested in your, in your thoughts on that. Dr. Joel Hunter: Well, um, yeah, gosh.

Um, well, I, I lost my granddaughter first. She was five years old. Um, we just had gotten home from a family vacation, all of the grandkids, all of the, um, and, uh, Um, and I got a call the next day. She had fallen on, on the, on the, uh, on our vacation. We did they get any of it. Uh, but they took her to the hospital and there was a, uh, a lemon sized tumor inside her head. Um, and we were so rocked back because there wasn't really any warning.

Um, and so the first, interestingly enough, the first call I got, and I don't know, you still don't know how, he found out about it, but president Obama called me, um, and he said, Joel, this is Barack. I just found out what in the, what can I do? What can Michelle and I, Michelle and I are praying, what can I do? I said, I, and I just burst into tears. You know? Um, I said, there's, there's nothing.

Um, they say, um, that, that can be done, uh, because they had, they have analyzed the um, stage four glioblastoma. It was, it was inoperable. Well, it wasn't inoperable it just was the aggressive type. And, um, and so I just, I had spent so much time. Uh, trying to pastor him and that he re kind of reversed the role and he said, now, wait a minute. I want you to know you're not alone in this. God's with you in this, don't lose your faith. You know?

And, and so it was just, it was a helpful call. Just after that I called a friend of mine, um, Francis Collins, who was the head of the Human Genome project. By the time this happened, he was ahead of the NIH, the largest uh, scientific research, um, organization in the world. Um, and, and I said, Francis, what can we do? What, what, what the best? I just, the best science. And he, and he said, Joel, I'm so sorry. He said, there's no protocols for this she's five years old.

There's there's nothing that I can tell you that's gonna, um, have, um, a significant chance of helping the situation. And so I went from, okay, is there any medical help? Um, um, is there any hope? And I still remember the day the doctor came in and told, um, my son and his wife and my wife and I were in that room as well. Um, that this is terminal and we did do an operation. The tumor came right back and she was dead and within 10 weeks. But, but the point of this is, is that.

I had available for me all the help there is um, and they had no answers. Um, and, and, and it, it helped me to understand that you can't manage everything you can't, sometimes there's just no help. There's no answers. Um, uh, because as a president of the United States and the head of NIH can't help um, and the, the terrific doctor at Arnold Palmer can't help, you know, then, then it's, it's it's pretty well, and of course we prayed. We asked God for a miracle. Of course we would.

Um, God's asked us to do that. Just ask me, you know, um, but sometimes His answer is no. Um, and so we went through that process, um, and, and, um, Isaac, who was my son who was more like me than any of my three sons, he was the preacher. Um, He took this so hard. He took Ava's death so hard. Um, and the rest of us were grieved as well.

But, but you know, we got all of these messages and you, you know, this, Steve, Steve, and you know, this, uh, Marshall people come in and they tell you how much they meant then how, how they were, we're reminded of the value of prayer and the value of family and the value of, you know, and so they, and so we thought, well, even at five years old, uh, she accomplished a mission. Um, and sometimes you have a five-year mission, and sometimes your mission is long, but she accomplished the mission.

So we, we could live with that. Um, and as you know, you're, you're, you're constantly reminded of her, uh, reminded of them in little ways. And, um, and, and slowly it becomes from a moment of pain to a moment of ,man I'm glad I knew her, you know, man, I'm glad she was a part of my life. Um, but then Isaac, um, I come from a long line of alcoholics. Um, and so I, I just have never, we've never had it in the house, we know, you know, um, we, we've kind of got this addictive personality.

Anyhow, I don't do anything halfway. You know, if I'm, if I'm in, I'm in, you know, if I'm not, I'm not, um, But Isaac, uh, had become, um, an alcoholic and we didn't know it. And, and because it was really high functioning alcoholic. And then there came a point where everything just broke apart at once. Um, and, and, and, and being one of the premier pastors in Central Florida, um, he not me, he was, he was so ashamed. And of course that drives you right back into your addiction.

The shame um, and so, um, uh, he went, you know, um, from, yeah, I think I can do this, I can, I can come back. He resigned his church, um, and, and struggled, um, a, had a series of bad decisions. Um, and, uh, but he, he was on what I think it was about a three day bender, um, and you know how alcoho is a depressant and when you're depressed, you just think my life's always going to be like this. There's no hope I might as well do the right thing for my kids and get them insurance money. Uh.

I might as well relieve the world of the burden that I am . And so, um, he took his life. And that was a very different dynamic for me. Um, um, because with a five year old you can't, it's not something that you say, well, is there something I did? Is this something I could have said? Is there something, some difference I could have made, uh, with a five year old with a brain tumor there's not a lot of, but when somebody takes their own life, there is a natural questioning, you know?

I wonder if I could have made a difference and, um, but Becky and I, and this was another thing that was very apparent. Um, my son and his wife eventually got a divorce because, um, something like death of a child's death will either drive you together or drive you apart. And they had two different ways of grieving. Um, and, and, and, and she of course wanted him to grieve in her way. And so there was this kind of wedge. Um, um, Becky and I were kind of the opposite.

We, we, we had a way of grieving, but it was, we'll talk to each other if we need to um, but we'll encourage each other and work together, um, to honor the one who passed. And so it drove us together. Um, and so. Um, as we, as we worked our way through this, and it's been, um, years now, um, um, as we worked our way through this, um, we found ourselves, uh, with two main sources of hope. One is, um, our faith has meant everything to us. The fact that we really believe God loves us.

We really believe God loves everybody. We really believe God doesn't lose anything. We really believe God isn't surprised by anything. We really believe that, um, all things work together for good. Somehow, even when we can't see, um, we, we believe together that somehow in God's plan, um, that was a good plan for, um, the future that Isaac would have had. Um, you know, part of what we thought is, what if he would have gotten into a car drunk and killed a child?

Yeah. It, he couldn't possibly have lived with that. And, and he was getting in cars drunk. And so, and so we, maybe this is just mental acrobatics trying to make things better, but we, we really believe, um, that, that, um, somehow in God's larger plan that we will understand someday that, um, This was part of God's goodness. Because we believe in a goodness we can't see, um, and not dependent on our feelings. But as your original question was, did two of them coming in a row have an impact?

And the answer is absolutely. There's, you know Life is full of really hard things. But when there's something that, um, emotional trauma or emotionally traumatizing, um, is almost like, it's like when you go into shock, you can't feel because you couldn't take it If you could. It's it's, it's like multiple, um, losses of people that you loved. I think you're right. Marshall.

I think your body knows I can take one of those, uh, one of those at a time, but I can't take both of them at the same time. Because, because I wouldn't be able to function. So anyhow, I think, I think that that very much is the case. Well, it's interesting what you said, cause I can really relate to it. Let me just tell you that we were at the funeral home, picking out Matt's headstone when I got the call, my mother passed away. And, my mother and my father and Matt were all hilarious.

And I looked to, Debbie and I said, if this wasn't our life and so serious, this would be a black comedy that my mother, my son, and my father would, would laugh at because it's just so ridiculous. So we literally went from hearing my mother passed to seeing Matt's plot, which was next to my father and gonna be next to my mother. And then it hit that we're literally looking at the plot where our thirty-two-year old son is going to be laid to rest.

And I looked at Debbie and I said, we've got three choices here. The first choice is this can be too much. We could just say we're tennis players, so we could say game set, match. And I said, that is an option that I don't think is a viable one, but I'm throwing all the three options out. The second option is to what I call, be of the living dead. I've known of loved ones that have sustained loss in their life and never gotten over it.

And the third was to live our lives as a tribute to Matt to be the most productive, functioning, kind and compassionate people, we can be for the time we have on this earth as a tribute to our son. And I'll tell you that I, I, you know, as a lawyer I would do, I always do research and obviously know very well, your wonderful reputation, but I saw the wonderful things people said about Isaac and it's something that I think what you did is what I did.

I think you have to do it because again, we're all here for a short time. Whether it was my parents that lived into their nineties or my son that lived to age 32, It's all finite. And I think that for me, the bigger picture is I always try to teach my two boys lessons.

And then the height of irony is that Matt ended up teaching me the biggest lesson in his passing, that we're here and make the most of the time, because I have been inundated with Matt's stories from people that have known him after he passed telling me how he positively effected his life, that I probably never would have heard. And that to me it speaks volumes that he knew his time was finite and he was going to make the most of it. And I think that's what I learned. And it's sure.

Sounds like you've learned also. Dr. Joel Hunter: Absolutely, absolutely. The natural order of thing, when you lose a kid, um, and Steve knows what we're talking about here, natural order of things is, your kids carry on your work. You know, um, but when you lose a kid, do you feel responsibility to kind of carry on their, work, their life and, and do something that would honor them. And so, uh, Becky and I now go to the church that Isaac planted.

Um, and, and the two remaining, he planted with two friends, um, both of whom we watched grow up in our living room. But to be a part of that church, and to continue what he started, um, is just a part of how we live our life now. In order to, um, kind of fulfill, um, just a small part of, of what his dreams would have been.

Dr. Joel Hunter: Yeah. Well, first of all, it's, it's important to know that most people when they, when they ask why, um, it's, it's, it's just, a cry of pain. It's a cry of, I feel lost. I, I, I just want something stable, something to, um, and so most of the time, um, I don't, I wouldn't even hazard a guess. I mean, I can play around in my mind with my, with reasons for, for my, um, um, um, relatives passing, I couldn't possibly pretend to give them a reason for theirs.

So, the answer is always, I have no idea. But I do believe because scripture says, um, someday we will know fully, even as we have been fully known. I do believe that someday when God lets us in on the full picture of how life, uh, unfolded, um, that everything will be contained and it will make more sense than we ever could have imagined. I think just like everything else, we, we only have a partial understanding just has had again and now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

Um, and, and so my answer is always, uh, I can't pretend to have the mind of God. I can't pretend to even comprehend why things happen as they do. It's way too complex, way too mysterious for me. All I can say, um, is that we have a God who created us and who loves us more than we can possibly know. And who loved the one we lost more than we can possibly know. And, and, and, and so I, I, all I can do is place my hope in that. And that's because I, I, let me say one more thing.

When people say why too many terms, religious people and Christians are the worst at this. You know, cook up some sort of a religious platitude that just makes you want to punch him in the face. You know, like God wanted a flower for His garden or something like that. God, look, God can make the flowers on His own. You know He doesn't need my kid. So. So we've got to resist trying to answer people, why? Because we don't know! I'm guilty of that as well. I was, I do think that way sometimes.

So, I do want to say that after Jordan died, we were completely lost. Uh Jordan's our only son. House went from busy, busy, noisy, noisy to silent, and we, um, We sought out some counseling, which it's hard to tell if it was helping and Shelly actually called Ruth your secretary and ask if we could get in. We had no idea if you would accept us to come in to see you. And she called on a Thursday and you got us in on Monday before you were flying to DC.

I can't thank you enough for that, but she asked you one question. The first question, the hard question, which I've had a couple others ask me, how would you, how would you counsel them when they ask is my son's death punishment for our sins? I remember asking, I remember you, you answering and it was like, it, it completely changed my view on things. Dr. Joel Hunter: Well, let me give you the Christian answer and I'll give you the general understanding of God answer as well.

The Christian answer is, um, absolutely not. Christ on the cross, bore the punishment for all of our sins. So we don't get punished for our sins. That's already taken care of. But even, even, or in addition to that, if you're not a Christian. Um, if you believe in a creator, God, um, this could be, and we could take off on a whole comedy routine here. Okay. Who gets the ax today? Because, and for what, you know? Who's going to compare here, you know, and who gets, you know?

What's sin gets what punishment and all of that. I mean, there's a general, you know, karma thing and, and, and, you know, you report your so yeah, but punishments, no. There's just there's we don't belong to a shallow vindictive God, that would take what we would deserve out on somebody else. Out on a whole bunch of somebody else's . Because somehow we messed up. And show me, show me a day when we don't mess up. I mean, gee whizz there'd be nobody left if that was the price.

So, no, it's not, but, what you speak to is a very real dynamic because all of us grew up with guilt. And we have parents that reinforced that, unfortunately, you know, now look what you've done. And, and so we begin to think that everything is our fault. But life is, is much too complex for that. And so we've got to let ourselves off the hook. Because there's no way we can manage the universe and revolving around us so that if we mess up, everybody else gets it. That just doesn't happen.

And I, I will tell you even at Matt's funeral I laughed a lot because we were telling funny Matt stories and to this day when Debbie, my wife and my other son, David, talk about Matt, we laugh a lot. And one thing that you brought up about the why was as a, such a world, famous clergymen, it was very, it really resonated with me what you said, because I remember what my mother said about my grandfather.

Like my, I grew up in Buffalo, New York ,and from the time I was born to the time I was four years old, I lived right across the street from my grandparents, my father's parents lived right across the street, which wasn't great for my mother to say the least having her in-laws right across the street. But I liked it because I got, every day, my mother walked across the street and I got to know my grandfather very well. He was a, uh, Jewish immigrant came from Austria.

Adler means Eagle in German, so it's an Austrian name. And he was an interesting guy. And after I became an adult, I asked my mother how she dealt with the loss of her two children. And she told me a story that after her second son died, she talked to my grandfather, my father's father and what he said when she asked the why question, he said, well, this is a tragedy. You've lost two children. There's no two ways about it. It's tragic.

But it would be no less of a tragedy if it happened to the next door neighbor. And what makes you think that you're exempt from tragedy? Because you're not. And that, when she first said it, she said she was very taken aback. And then as she got older, she realized it really helped her understand. And after losing Matt, it really resonated with me because, you know, I'm a big sports fan and I go over statistics and analyze football. I'm a big Buffalo bills fan.

And I was looking at averages and I always thought, well, my parents lost two children. Statistically, the odds of that ever happening to our family would be so minuscule, that'd be off the radar screen and nothing have, I never have to worry about. Obviously that theory didn't hold and looking at what my grandfather said when I first heard it, I thought it was sort of Spartan and coarse for her, for somebody to say that. But now I realize it actually was very helpful.

It was helpful to my mother and helpful to me after losing Matt, which I never really thought about that beforehand. So I, you know, hearing somebody like you in such honesty saying, you know, I can't give you a definitive answer on the why question. Is wonderful, cause it made me laugh, which I'll always thank you for making me laugh. I love laughing. But, also it gives me sort of more insight into my grandfather.

Again, this was a Austrian immigrant, not well-schooled in a technical sense, but he sorta had smarts about life. And here we are so many years later talking about him. That's something really resonates with me. So I was it. I just, you, what you think about that? Dr. Joel Hunter: I love that. And your and your grandfather very wise, man, that's a, that's really a great point, uh, and puts things in perspective.

But let's talk about humor just for a second, because, and how important it is, especially for people who are going through rough times. I mean, humor is kind of our way of saying, you're not gonna win this one. You know, you're not going to take me down. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna take my life out of, um, circulation, uh, because I'm hurting. And it's very important to hang around people that make you laugh.

It's very important to remember the funny times that you, that you had with those that you, that you, um, that you lost. Because Becky and I, um, Isaac was one of these, just walk across the street and your shirt, tails out of your pants. You don't, you don't know how it got out, you know? And when he was a kid. I don't care. You could, you could knot triple knot his shoes, they'd always just come loose! You know? So, after he passed, you know, Becky and I love to walk together.

Um, and so we were walking around Cranes Roost and, uh, and her shoelace had come undone and she'd go Isaac, you know, and like, like he untied my shoes. Like I can't, I can't keep. And, and so there was all, it's always so important, um, to honor somebody by not, um, taking yourself out of the enjoyment of life. Joy, you know, scripture says grief lasts for the night, but joy comes in the morning.

It's okay to grieve, but, it's the natural order of things that the grief would not subtract your joy forever. And to be able to laugh at their old jokes. And I was just over, uh, we were Becky and I were just over at, his older brothers house last night and, uh, um, and she was putting something away in the refrigerator and, uh, and he said, I'm glad to see you covered that. Now if Isaac would have been here, he'd have just stuck it in there without a cover, gone, and been all dried up.

You know, and we would've laughed because he never, you know, he was just messy. He was just messy. And, and so anyhow, that, that humor is super important. Some people think that if they, if they're laughing, uh, there's somehow sacreligious or it's dishonoring, its just the opposite. It's life-giving. It really is. You know, I, it's funny, you mentioned that about Isaac.

I think Isaac and Matt were kindred spirits, because we, I never knew about Velcro shoes until Matt, could I, to this, I don't even know if he ever learned how to tie his shoelaces. I mean, it's just, it's just they were always flopping, so I know about Velcro well before anybody else did, because we just knew with Matt it was part of the deal. But, it's all these little things that you think about that I think make the journey of grief in some ways, a lesson that we all have to learn.

You know, I'll, I'll, I'll say this, like talk to Steve many, many times. You know, Steve and I met through Grief Share, and we've obviously bonded because we've both lost sons. And now we have the three of us who here who've lost sons and it's. Some ways looking at it, but for the grief that we all had, we wouldn't be laughing today. And I think Jordan and Isaac and Matt want us all to laugh because I think all of them were funny.

Dr. Joel Hunter: Yeah. And I think they're all smiling saying, keep it up, guys. Keep on laughing. Dr. Joel Hunter: Yeah. Amen to that. You're right.

It's, so it's like, we're looking from the underneath of the quilt and you have no idea what it looks like on top until we get there. And then he reveals everything. So from this, this side, it looks messy, it looks unkept. It doesn't feel right. Sometimes you question many things. I struggle with the why question until I realized why not us? Somebody said, to us, why not you? I, I did not have an answer for that.

But, I have noticed as we've moved further down the road, how many things and how many doors He's opened for us, that I know is not the way the world works. And every time we question whether we're on the right path or we're doing the right thing, he'd open another door and business does not work that way. I, we, we both been exposed to it and we're looking at each other, like this is not normal. Have you seen many things since the loss of your granddaughter and your son?

Cause it's changed your path and what you were going to work on? Dr. Joel Hunter: Absolutely. I, yeah, and I, uh, Becky and I often say, Um, we live in surreal life, you know, it's kinda, it's kinda like Forrest Gump. You know, the movie where he, you know, he just shows up in history and he's looking around, you know, this little guy never would have gotten there on his own you know, that's how I feel my life is. I never would've gotten there on my own.

And, and, um, so I do think that there's this plan um, that is way beyond, uh, what we can imagine and everything that we, um, we tend to dismiss as circumstantial or luck or, or whatever. I, I, I don't wanna, I don't want to get spooky about this cause, cause this can get into superstition, um, and we're not superstitious.

But yet if you don't think that you have had some divine intervention in your life, some door opening, somebody saying something at just the right moment where you knew that was a message from God for you. Then you're probably not paying attention. And, and so Becky and I have, uh, again, had this incredible life and it's continued. Mmm Mmm. Some of it directly proportional to, um, our grief because it's, it's helped us empathize in ways that we never would have.

It's opened our hearts in ways we, we never had the ability to open them before. There's, there's, there's a, there's a, there's a way that your heart opens because it's been forcibly broken. You would never break it that way yourself, but it's, it's it wasn't you. And then God, uses that for somebody else's benefit. And, and many other people's benefit and, and, you know, you never would have been that good of a servant or that good of a helper without that event.

So, so absolutely there's a purpose in all of this and we will see the fullness of it and we will wonder. We'll stand in awe at how not only detailed was the plan for our life, but deeply personal was the plan for our life. It's, uh, I I'm, I'm looking forward to it. Wow, Marshall, that was a really uplifting message that we got from Dr. Hunter. I think this is a great place to, uh, to end the part one of our interview with him today.

And I'm just, I'm really taken aback by some of his comments and how much he was willing to share with us. What, what part did you think was, was so impactful to you?

Nobody ever sees the loss of a child as something that's going to happen to them until it does. And I knew that for the only path we could follow was to make the rest of our days on this earth, a tribute, to Matt, to continue all the good work that he could no longer do because he wasn't here.

And Lord knows Dr. Hunter as done amazing things throughout his entire life, but in particular, after the passing of his granddaughter and his son that has been such a wonderful tribute to them that's absolutely amazed me. And it's something that I will want to emulate for the rest of my life. Absolutely.

And he didn't know us from anybody else, but he took the time and effort. I can't wait for everybody to hear part two. So, next week, we're going to have some, uh, extra items included in part two. You're not going to want to miss it. You're going to make sure you come back the next Thursday to listen to part two of our interview with Dr. Hunter. We actually get into some discussions around #COVID19. Get into some discussions around Black Lives Matter.

His work, with the civil rights movement back in the early years for him. And, uh, we just want to say thank you for joining us for this episode and please tune in for part two.