A Comfort In Times Of Trouble: Pastor Harvey Carpenter

She was vibrant, she was upbeat, she was, uh, she was a go getter, she was, uh, uh, she was a brilliant lady, really a principal at a school for mentally and physically handicapped children. And, uh, became nationally known, uh, because of the programming and the work that she did there. The parents loved her because she was done doing such good work for their children, and she just gave her life to that.

And, um, I think perhaps that's where I get some of my empathy for other people is through a, my mother as well. And, but she struggled for four years and then, um, then she passed and the whole family was gathered around her bedside when she did pass away. And that was, uh, that was good for us to be there, to be able to say goodbye and to spend those last moments with her. Uh, I don't know that it makes the grieving any easier, but it certainly makes the regret less.

And so we spent that time with her there and she passed. She was a compassionate soul and. Uh, really, really do miss her. The grief that followed of course was, was challenging. There were difficult days. There were, uh, periods of time when you felt a little emotionally overwhelmed, and maybe even somewhat disconnected from myself or even from life. But, uh, I didn't, I don't think I grieved deeply, uh, over time. It, about six years later, when God called me into another role at the church.

That's I think I started doing a lot of funerals that I really started connect dealing with the grief that I had over my mother. And so, um, So that's, that's God's role for me right now. Interestingly enough, my mother was one of six children. She came from a rather large family, from a poor family, really. And so her oldest sister was the last to pass just a number of years ago.

She, uh, and she called me before she passed and she told me she was with hospice and she said, Harvey, I want to, they'll let you know that the time is coming for me and, um, I'm going to be seeing your mother soon and wow, what a, what a revelation that was, it's not the kind of call you expect to receive. And she said to me, is there anything you'd like for me to tell your mother when I see her and I'm like, wow, now that's that now that's a unique conversation to have with someone isn't it?

So I thought it through and I said, yeah, you see my mother in the next few weeks or in a month or so tell her that I'm doing well, and that she'd be proud of me. So then my aunt did pass and I expected that they had a conversation and that bring me, that brought me some joy, gave me some hope, knowing that, that I had a way of being able to share that moment, that message my love with my mother all those years later. So yeah. So that's kind of my journey of grief.

Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it was a very strange feeling, but yeah, it was kinda like that. Absolutely.

I wouldn't say that I did that, but at the same time, I wouldn't say that I grieved, well. My mother was the first person close to me to pass away. So, I didn't understand grief then, I didn't, I didn't know how to grieve and I didn't realize the importance of grieving. And now I do. Grieving is an important part of our emotional health.

And until we learn to grieve well, until we give ourselves to the process, uh, I think it can be very challenging and difficult following them death of a loved one.

And so it was a number of years later after I began to understand and interact with a lot of people who are going through loss and experiencing sorrow and mourning and increase to a deep degree that I reconnected with the grief that I, um, that I should have pursued a little bit more with my mother and it gave me a new insight and helped me to understand the value of grief.

And so I think it's, it's a privilege for me then to be able to, to pour into the lives of people and who are hurting and help them grieve in ways that are productive and useful and ultimately healing.

And so I did it obviously attend her funeral with my family and it was at the church where I was serving at the time. And, um, it was, uh, it was well attended of course, she was well loved and I don't ever regret that I didn't speak at her funeral. Some people have asked me that in the past, you know, do you wish you had, had, had spoken and. I don't, uh, I really, uh, was able to grieve rather than think about what I was going to say or be at work, so to speak.

I was able to just grieve and that was important for me and my family at that time. So, yeah, yeah.

And I always remember that as a, as her service being the first gathering of people in the church building here and that, uh, it brings me joy to know that they came to honor her life as well. Yeah.

It's not like you, you know, growing up, you say, I want to be a guy who does funerals for everybody because it's a, it's a heavy role and it's dealing with a lot of grief, but some doors have opened up and opportunities presented themselves and, um, Funeral directors kept calling. And I kept saying yes. And so after 12 years, the number of funerals is, has increased over 1500 and it gives me a unique perspective on grief doesn't it?

And it certainly has put me in a, in a role to, to be able to help a lot of families along the way. And it's a role that I, uh, I've cherished and in many ways reminds me of my mother, who her role was to be compassionate to people and to help people. And I suppose I inherited some of that from her as well. I find great joy and helping people through difficult times. And so, uh, God's honored me with that and I get to do that for a living.

And I'm going to tell you, I've done an as I've mentioned, a lot of funerals and that's one of the services that really sticks out in my mind. For a number of reasons, not the least of which is the, uh, the friendship that developed, uh, with you and Shelley following that. Um, that's been a great joy in my life and I thank you for that. I wish it had come about in a different way. I think we both would agree on that, but it's, it's been a joy.

But the other thing that really causes me to remember Jordan service was the fact that, um, it might've been the first time I was asked to read sort of, uh, uh, uh, uh, eulogy, that was written by the person themselves. Uh, remember Jordan had an assignment in school where the teacher asked them to, to write about themselves and he did. So we read that at service and wow. That was impactful.

And the thing that really stands out to me too, was this teacher who actually had made that assignment was there at the service. And, uh, nobody could have described Jordan's life better than he did himself. And what a, what a, what a great, uh, opportunity that was to just let people hear Jordan's own words. So that really stands out to me, but there's a lot of other funerals that stand out as well.

I recall, uh, one young gal who passed on unexpectedly on Thanksgiving day number of years ago, and her parents did something very unique. Um, the funeral was here at the church. It was a large gathering of people. And people grieve in different ways. You know, a lot of young people were here because she was young and it was a tragic accident. And, um, her parents, uh, chose a light gray colored casket.

And then they asked people to take permanent markers in various colors, bright colors, red and green and blue things that you could see, that stand out, and with the casket closed, uh, all of her friends and many others as well. Family members, friends of friends came down and they wrote messages. They expressed their love. They expreseds their grief. They were able to, to put into words actually on her casket, you know how they felt about her. And some of them wrote prayers.

Um, some of them wrote scriptures, uh, various things. And I can just, in my mind, I can see that casket just completely covered with those writings of those people. And it was, what a unique way to let people express their grief and their love for someone to, to, to write a message and in permanent ink on the place where that person will, will, will remain for a long time. And I thought that was unique. That really stands out in my mind as a funeral I'll never forget.

But, there are others as well. I remember a, a young father whose wife passed of Mersa infection and it was unexpected and quick and the entire service, I don't think anybody expected this, but he stayed at the casket hunched over weeping and sobbing for the entire service. And, um, what an impact that was for everybody who attended.

And I remember at the end of the service, just when you thought maybe he was ready to get up and move on, he took out his cell phone and he played the song that had meant so much to the two of them. And he just, uh, he played the whole song and he, and everybody just sat there and cried and wept, and it was, it was just a very heavy moment of grief when you just see a man sobbing. And, um, you know, what do you say at a time like that?

You don't, you don't say anything, you just grieve and sob with them. That's all you can do. So those are a couple of the services that just really stick out in my mind, but I'm sure there are many more as well.

He told me when he had too, save somebody's life by going literally into their brain and cutting out a malignant brain tumor, you almost had a, have a detached objectivity because his job was to go in and save this person's life, the best he could by doing the surgery that was needed.

With you with so many funerals, you must have some way to be objective and a little bit detached, because doing as many funerals as you did, if you got personally involved in every single one, it must've been a huge burden on you. Am I correct? I mean, that must be a very tough balancing act for you to do, to be, you're obviously a kind compassionate, wonderful person and a great pastor. But also you are there to do a job. And so let me ask you, how do you do that?

How do you keep the compassion and humanity that's needed when somebody is grieving to help them. But also to keep the objectivity, cause you are there to do a job that needs to be done.

And there's a balance, as you mentioned, that has to be struck there by me and walk a fine line between being detached and thinking of this is just a role that I, I've been called to, versus really ministering to folks. And so, you know, I try to really minister to folks to the extent that I can. Fortunately for me, uh, most of the folks that I'm called to serve, um, I don't, I don't know personally. Some I do, but the vast majority are people that I've never met. And it's good.

And I relished the opportunity to serve them. And it's, it's good that they're reaching out, you know, to, to a pastor for help at a time like this. They certainly, uh, sense the need for, that's why they're calling and why they feel like, uh, you know, that want a pastor there. So there's a ministry to be, um, be had there and that's, that's wonderful.

But people will ask me, is it easier for you to do a service, a officiate, a, a memorial or a funeral service for someone, you know, or someone you don't know? And the honest answer is it's easier from an emotional perspective for someone I don't know. Because there's not as much emotional attachment. If I know the person, somebody may be from the church where I serve or a family member or somebody in the community that I know a long time friend perhaps it's much more challenging.

Because there's that emotional component and you want to make sure that you know, that, uh, that you don't get too emotionally involved while you're trying to conduct a service. And so, um, it's, it's, it's much more challenging that way, but yeah, there's a balance that has to be struck. I won't say it's easy and I have found myself, I'll be honest with you on a couple of occasions with people. I don't know, sitting in a service and the story is told and I get emotional.

I think that's just part of the territory and it may be that comes with a compassionate heart to some degree. But I think the other part of the answer to your question, and I think this is the real answer is, God has given me a capacity to be able to do this beyond my normal talent or skill would normally, you know, be. I think this is really a gift that God's given me.

And, and so perhaps I'm able to bear a little more than most people and it's something that, uh, you know, he's put up on my heart to do. And, um, and I keep getting, um, uh, people referred to me. And so it tells me that, you know, there there's an opportunity here to touch lives and that's really what I want to do. So if that means there's a little bit of, uh, uh, emotional, uh, baggage or fatigue that goes with it, so be it, that's what I'm called to do.

So, yeah, it's not an easy thing really.

I want to hear their words. I want to hear them talk about that loved one. It not only helps me, but I think it helps them as well as they begin to, uh, process the grief that, uh, is, is, is there. And, and ironically, people want to talk about their loved ones.

That's that's the big misnomer that people have is I don't want to bring up a loved one because it's going to cause some pain in the person's life and that's really, that's really, it, may cause some pain, but it's pain that they want to feel because that's what grief is. It's, it's a painfulness that is, is sweet in some ways, because it's a memory of something that you deeply, deeply love. And want to keep with you forever. So you want to talk about that.

They want to, they want to highlight, you know, their loved one and what they accomplished and what their passions were and you know, how they conducted their life. And what the legacy that has been left is all about. And so I typically try to get people to talk initially about their loved one. And then we save the details for later.

But one of the things that I think is important for people to know is where I'm coming from as a pastor and what my perspective is and what I want to accomplish, what I think I, we all want to really accomplish, uh, with, with the service. Whether it's a funeral or memorial service, whether it's a chapel service or a grave site service, whatever the case may be. I tell folks, listen, one of the things that we I'd like for us to do is honor your loved one at the service.

So, what that means is we want to take an opportunity to share those, those wonderful memories, those positive memories. We want to tell stories of love and joy. We want to talk about the past that they had in life. We want to honor your loved one. That's what we're here to do is to, is to honor them, to have those, those memories that make us, you know, just smile. And then I say to them, but the second thing we'd like to do is comfort, the loved ones.

So people are coming and they're looking for a word of comfort. People need to know that there's comfort, that exists, that can, that can help them, and that can sooth them and that can, you know, bring healing and hope to a broken heart. And so I tell them that we want to, uh, we wanna, we want to provide some comfort. For me, that comfort usually comes through the sharing of scripture because I believe one of the things that God does best as he comforts us.

And so, you know, I'll share or passage that, that just talks about the comfort of God and the presence of God and the goodness of God, like Psalm 46 says God is our refuge and our strength, a very present help in times of trouble. That's a powerful reminder that in the midst of your sorrow and grief and your pain and your mourning that God is present. And not only is he present, but he cares. And so that's a comforting thing for people to be reminded of.

I suppose, the most comforting of passage of all is Psalm 23. You know, the Lord is my shepherd and he talks about how he walks with us through the valleys of grief and pain. And he's there in the midst of us. When it says there, I walk through the Valley, I'm always reminded it doesn't say I run through the Valley. We walk because we know God is with us and he's walking beside us every step of the way. And it's always good to know that he's there. So the goal is to bring comfort.

And then finally, I want to point people in right direction. People are looking for hope. People are realized life is fragile. And it can be short and, um, they're looking for hope. And so we want to point people in the right direction. We want to talk about what's important in life. Family is important, of course, friends are important and faith is important. In the end that's really all that matters. Family, friends, and faith. That's all you have.

And so I talk about the importance of, uh, giving people, uh, you know, hope and pointing them in the right direction and making that, which is a priority in your life, your priority, living in such a way that you bring honor and glory to your loved one. That's the best legacy you can live. Live your life in a way that they would be appreciative of it.

So, those are the three things I really try to tell families when I talk to them initially, you know, talk about their loved one, get them to share that story with me, and then we talk a little bit about the service and how that's going to flow and what's important to them. And do they want to include music? Do they want to have scripture? Do they want prayers? Do they, who do they want to give the eulogy? Um, do they have other family members who want to say some things?

So, all of that has to be set up and then, um, then we do the service. So that's how it usually happens.

And it's really a wonderful thing to see people rallying around you when you most need people. My question to you is sort of twofold. Um, again, I'd been to many funerals of Jewish friends. I've been to many funerals of Christian friends. And I've noticed a lot of similarities between a Jewish and a Christian funeral service. I see the same thing with family and friends railing around, which is great.

So my question is twofold is do you see any distinction between Judaism and Christianity with that, but also, as we're taping this, I guess that's all as we're doing this on the computer digitally, somebody might be listening to this 50 years from now we're doing this in 2020, during the middle of a worldwide COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic, where for centuries, the way that the Jewish and Christian religions have been dealing with grief is to get people together. Get people, hogging, get people.

As far, the antithesis of social distancing is a sitting shivah situation or a funeral situation. So my question is now again, how does the Christian religion, if similar similarities or differences with the Jewish religion, but also how are you dealing with the fact that everything we're being told to keep us safe now with the COVID-19 Corona virus is at odds with what people have done for thousands of years, helping loved ones go through grief. So it's a twofold question.

And I often use even for a Christian family the old covenant, the Hebrew scriptures, and there's so many good texts there that remind us of God's presence and God's comfort in God's goodness. And I mean, I'm just reminded of Psalm 34, you know, the Lord is near to the broken hearted. He saves those who are crushed in spirit. And I tell folks, yeah, may feel overwhelmed today. You may feel as though you're crushed by your emotions, but the promises that God is with you and that he saves.

And of course, if it's a family that puts their hope in Christ as a Christian family, I would say that the resurrection of Jesus is what gives us hope today. And, and so, uh, but there are so many common teachings and common language that can be used between a Jewish or Christian, uh, service that you know, that they're in many ways, very similar. Very similar. And in terms of practice, uh, again, I mean, you can go all the way back to the scriptures.

Jesus was a Jew. I mean, you see him attending funerals and, you know, at the funeral of Lazarus, you know, he was mourning with the mourners there. He, he went to express his love and concern and be with Mary and Martha Lazarus's funeral. And those were Lazarus's sisters. And it says there, the shortest verse in the scriptures is that Jesus wept, his compassion was overflowing.

And so, you know, when we think about, uh, uh, grieving, we think about, I mean, there's a common denominator in grief, no matter what your religion. Whether you're Jewish or Christian or Buddhist or whatever it might be. I mean, weeping and gnashing of teeth and doing the kinds of things that express grief physically. It's a commonality between them all.

If you go back a little further into ancient times, and I'm not sure whether or not this is still a practice in Judaism, but I mean, people used to grieve outwardly and physically. I mean, they would, they would rip their clothes. They would put ashes on their head. They would, they would isolate them themselves for a certain amount of time. There would be a period of mourning. You don't see that as much today. And in our Western culture at least. Mourning doesn't unfold in that way.

Grief doesn't seem to take that path. It's, it's almost, almost always seems like it's back to business as usual, you know, after a service and people don't take time to grieve, like they used to. So I think that's one of the, one of the beauties of the Jewish religion as I see it. If you look back into the old Testament, there were some practices there that I think we would all be better served by if we were to adopt them and grieve in those ways.

I really do, but I, cause I think there's a lot of wisdom and value in that. And that's why you can read the Psalms and it's just full of passages about God's presence and overcoming difficult times, whatever they may be. As far as today's uh situation with COVID, I've done a number of services where we've had to have social distancing, and I'm gonna tell you it's an odd thing.

Where people can't get together and naturally they want to be close to one another and they want to be a, you know, hugging and weeping and wiping away the tears. And when that's not, uh, you know, almost comes second nature to folks, uh, but when that's, when you're prevented from doing that, it, it seems strange. It seems, uh, out of the normal, uh, flow of how you would normally grieve.

And so I think though, there will come a time where we get through that, people go right back to, to grieving and, and, and, and being close. I think families may, uh, may ignore some of the social distancing simply because their family. You know, they feel much more comfortable around one another, but when you start bringing strangers or extended family or guests into the mix.

Yeah, it does make for a unique environment, especially now that we're all practicing social distancing and wearing masks and things like that. It's very different. So how it has an effect on grief? I don't know. Probably doesn't have a very good effect on grief, because I think one of the things that helps people have hope for the future is knowing that they're loved and cared for and that almost always takes personal human touch. And so we're lacking some of that right now.

The social distancing that's happening and the isolation that's happening is contributing to, I think, more emotional and relational dysfunction right now through COVID. So, hopefully we'll come to a time when this whole period is over soon. Thats, that's our prayer, at least for sure.

And the support groups, uh, that I'm familiar with, there's one called Grief Share that we have at our church, and we recommend people, uh, who looking for help through their grief, join that group. And, um, we've been doing it for a number of years, have a great leaders and many people have gone through it. And most expressed to me and to others that is very helpful. And it's, it's a it's, uh, it's designed to be discussion oriented.

Uh, people come together, they share their stories, they share their grief. They remind one another that they can get through this and they can cope even in the midst of the pain. And so, uh, I'll often recommend that when people follow up with me. Sometimes if they're asking specifically for a therapist or a counselor, we have partners that we work with at church that we can recommend and sometimes we do that as well.

Yeah. Yep. And that sometimes people will just ask, you know, about the church and how to get more involved, and there's an enlightening that happens to them at the death of a loved one, where they start thinking about eternity. They start thinking about their own passing and the importance so of life, and they want to make some changes. And so that sometimes that's a discussion that takes place and, um, you know, that's uh, and I think that's a good thing.

That's, again, goes back to what I said before about pointing people in the right direction. Um, just helping remind, just helping remind people that there's more beyond this life. And when you begin to grasp that there's more than what we just see day to day. Um, it, it starts to open up some things in some people's minds. I'll give you an illustration. There's a, a monument in Spain. That's a monument to Christopher Columbus. And it's well known.

You can, you can look it up it, uh, and at the bottom of the monument, it says no plus ultra, which means no more beyond. Meaning that this is all there is, there's no more beyond this is it. But what Columbus discovered was that in fact there is more beyond, he was an Explorer, as you know. And so at the base of this monument is, um, is a lion. And the lion is reaching out with its paw and it's striking away the word no. So now the monument reads more beyond.

And what a great reminder that sometimes we have blinders on that this is all there is this world that we live in. Cause it's all we see. But as great explorers have revealed, there's, there's much more out of sight than there is just around us. And there's more beyond this life. And I try to give people hope that what you see and experience every day. That's just a small, tiny part of the reality that actually exists.

And I think it gives them hope, not only for themselves, but even for their loved one that's passed on. And, um, so yeah. Yeah,

But we also know the lifes for the living and we have to do everything we can to live our lives as a tribute, to our lossed loved ones. And part of that is to have hope for the future. To have hope, to try to help people. So obviously what you're doing is incredibly important because you are giving people hope literally through grief at their time of need.

So, you know, I've known you personally as a very wonderful, caring person, but hearing you talk professionally as a pastor, it's obviously you're very good at what you do and you're helping a lot of people that are going through grief. And Lord knows we are in a time in history where there be an enormous amount of grief. Why? Because we're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic. So I think doing what you're doing is literally something that could be saving so many people.

It's a wonderful thing to hear.

Uh, just realizing that, um, you know, life can get better, even though there's going to continue to be pain and we'll have to cope with, uh, sadness and heartbreak. Uh, but we can still be productive. We can still move forward. We can still impact those around us. We can still make a difference. And I think, I think what gives people hope in the midst of all the sorrow and sadness is knowing that they're loved. I think that's important. People need to realize that they're loved.

And, um, loved by their family, loved by their friends, you know, loved by God. Uh, love is so important. People need to remember that even when you feel that you're not loved, actually you are, and people need to accept that. And I think that gives people hope. The other thing is. As we mentioned before, hope comes from realizing that there's more beyond just this life.

I mean, and, and when we begin to let that sink in, um, it opens up windows of opportunity for, for not only this life, but we've start thinking about the life to come. And so that I think gives people a lot of hope. And then I think another thing that gives people hope is understanding that God is ultimately in control. There's so little in this life that we can actually control, that, that God is ultimately in control.

And when we're willing to give up, you know, control to him and trust in him and realize, uh, he's good that, that brings us some hope. You know, I think that brings hope. And I'm just reminded, you know, there's a scripture in the new Testament that says in God's presence, this is Revelation chapter 21, that in God's presence, there's no more pain or sorrow or heartbreak or sin that says all things have been made brand new.

And isn't that the hope that we really ultimately look for is that God's going to kind of remake this world and that there's something better coming? You know, Jesus says I've gone and prepared a place for you so that, you know, I can I'll come and get you and take you to be with me. We look forward to God making things right in our deep, in our souls. That's what we want to happen. And that gives us hope, believing that it will.

It doesn't make grief any easier, but it does give us hope to keep going on. So yeah, those are some, some of my thoughts about hope right there.

So we want to know why, because we want to believe in our hearts that there's, there must be a good reason that God allowed this to happen. So we want to know why? But the reality is, and we find this from the book of job out of the old Testament, is that. That question is an unanswerable question for us. We're never going to understand or know the question, the answer to the question why. God doesn't reveal that to us.

I mean, we wish that he would, of course I would love to know, you know, why certain people have passed on, you know, before their time, but that's the kind of information it seems that's only reserved for God. And maybe there are good reasons that we don't understand as to why. But the fact of the matter is we just don't have the answers and to speculate is maybe not a good thing. Speculation tends to go the wrong way.

And so, uh, people often ask that question, Steven, and, uh, of course I refuse to answer the question because I don't know the answer and I encourage them not to, I encourage them not to seek the answer to that question because that that'll that'll drive you mad over time. As, as the answer continues to change, as you, uh, as you grow in your grief and as you learn to cope with the new reality, that answer will tend to change.

And so now you're questioning yourself and you're questioning the answer or you're ultimately questioning God. I mean, it, it doesn't lead to a good place. I think the best thing to do instead of ask why is just trust and hope that. Put hope in that God is good and that ultimately he will work everything out and that's really, all you can do is just trust in him. That's, that's, that's my answer to, you know, people who ask the question why,

And that's, that is, that's kind of the ironic thing about pain, is that pain as much as we dislike is very useful. I mean, without pain, there would be all kinds of problems in life. Pain is a, is a marker that teaches us things. And let's, let's not kid ourselves, grief is painful. Mourning is painful. Deep sorrow hurts like nobody's business, but, that doesn't mean that God can't take our pain and transform it into a powerful force in not only our lives, but in the lives of other people.

He's, he's good at transforming things. And, um, when we cooperate with that transformation, good things can come of it, just like this podcast and then many other endeavors that we could probably mention as well.

You can be a very intelligent person, but not be empathetic, caring, emotionally open. And obviously you are, so this was a pleasure and a privilege to talk to you today, seeing the whole pie instead of just a piece.

So in fact, no matter where you are in the world, if you wanted to join in on Monday nights, um, you could certainly do that and you just go to the journey, Christian Church website, and, um, can you register there and we'd love to have you as a part of our Grief Share group. Well, thank you for sharing that with us. And that's all I have for today on the questions. I think you more than covered what I had, Marshall?