Part Two Pacers/Lakers Postgame Spaces

Thursday evening. I guess. This is part two of our postgame show from Pacers Lakers, starting with rog and I breaking down some stuff with Russell Westbrook and then getting back into kind of like a eulogy for Frank, just remembering, you know, all the things that he did really well while he was here, which then turned ironic when we discovered live on the show that he was at least going to be staying with the team long enough to

fly to Orlando. So that's all in this pot. As always, we appreciate you guys support, and we will see you for the postgame show on Friday night after the Magic Game. But I think this is a good transition to Russ because, you know, the one rotation decision he made tonight that I agree with was him pulling Russ. And this is something that we've talked about a lot on the show here in recent weeks, and it's a it's a basic concept. Like I shared out Russ's shot chart, the dude can't

make anything around the basket. Okay, he's shooting. I think coming into tonight he was at like fifty percent within three ft of the rim. That's a horrible number, guys, that's not a good number. I know it sounds efficient in the grand scheme of things, but to literally miss almost half of the shots that you attempt at the rim is an atrocious number. And it vastly undercuts the

positive impacts of his rim pressure. And like, what do I always say, guys, Like when you're when to be a positive perimeter basketball player, you have to be able to do You have to be a triple threat. You have to be able to shoot, you have to be able to drive, and you have to be able to make reads when teams send help your way. And the thing with Russ is he can't shoot. When he drives,

he can't finish. And when it comes to making reads against bad teams, when he's passing to areas, he can have some success, but he really struggles making reads against good teams that take away what he's good at and take away his easy reads. That's why he has all these horrible turnover games. But again, this, this is what's so bad. Rogs one of my consistent themes has been like, you know, Russ sucks against good teams, Like Russ can't score,

can't do anything to contribute against a good team. Well, he's starting to have these nights against bad teams too, and that's a really bad sign. This is the last thing I'll say, and I'll kick it over to you, Roger. There was there was a meme that became famous a couple of years ago. I think it was shortly after

his time in Houston. Do you guys remember there was like a timeline, Okay, And in the timeline, it's like it's like a calendar timeline, and at the beginning, it's like it's Russell Westbrook and it's like at the beginning, it's like this is the worst basketball player of all time. And then in the middle there's a little stretch where it's like, oh, question mark. And then there's like another stretch where it's like this is the best basketball player

of all time. And then there's the final and where it all becomes a b that that meme is now completely inaccurate because where's the stretch for he's the best basketball player of all time? Does that stretch exist? Because I see him getting worse and worse on a night to night basis, And it's just it's just the unfortunate reality of the predicament. Now I understand this is something that I've talked about a lot in recent weeks. It's going to be extremely difficult to trade Russ because nobody's

gonna want him. It is going to take a great deal of circumstances falling in the Lakers lap to break their way in order for a team to be willing to take on Russ's salary and to send back filler. But there's a reason why, Frank ben Struss, there's a reason why in the Utah Jazz game we had our best moments without Russ. There's a reason why Dwight Howard and Russ on the floor don't work with the two

of them together because that combined lack of shooting. And there's a reason why I've been pushing for this so far. It's because even if you got crap back for us, if it's crap, that can play a some kind of role on this team, not the Russ role, but rather similar role as to what Kuzma on KCP filled, Even if they do it at the rate that those guys, did this would be a better team. It's time to cut the losses. It's time to understand that this was a mistake and the team needs to move forward. Now.

It's going to be difficult. It's very possible that this can't happen this deadline. What I'm advocating for is if it's possible, it needs to be done, because there's nothing to be gained by going down with the ship that that's just a matter of pride at that point, like that's just that's just cutting off your nose despite your face. It would make way more sense to just acknowledge the reality of the situation. Russ isn't a very good basketball

player anymore. He's not going to raise your ceiling against good teams. Now, he's actively hurting you against bad teams. Just because he made a handful of threes. It's almost like the worst thing that can happen because he's gonna start shooting him even more. It's just it's it's been an absolute disaster on that front. And again, just like with Frank, it's not the only reason the Lakers are bad,

but it's one of the reasons. And everything that went out in that trade is part of that reason as well. But that's just that's where I'm at with russ Man. This is just another another that shot chart is absurd. He can't put the ball in the basket. Rodge can do it anymore. It's interesting because I've been, you know, I've been kind of charting this and and looking at

this rewatching the games and stuff. And this is the first time, obviously that Vogel has pulled Russ right, And I didn't think he would pull him in a game like I didn't even think it would happen halfway through the season. But it's been a progression of what I've been seeing. And we've been slowly and slowly we've been removing Russ from like what we do structurally right like

in terms of what we run on offense. Go watch these games, and he has just parked on the week side, he is parked in the dunker spot off the ball. We're running off offense through th ht fully through Lebron as a screener or Lebron with the ball. Avery Bradley even runs actions like we have moved Russell Westwark so much off the ball, and I think that you're even

seeing this in his stop shop selection as well. And again I think he had he had one turnover tonight, So we're getting the low turnover games, but we're sometimes we're getting even worse shots. You're seeing these one leg fadeaways because that's the only place that he's kind of a one legged fade away is the hardest basketball shot I've ever tried to learn. It is an impossible shot. Like, it's amazing that Kevin Durant is as good at it

as he is. For Russ to be taking that as that bad of a jump shooter is literally the worst case of the worst lack of self awareness I've ever seen. And so, you know, and he's taking these because, like Jason, his only time that he's getting offensive possessions is in transition, you know, where he has a little bit of an advantage against a one on one against a player that

you can physically over power. Or we're clearing aside for him to attack on right, so we're like, if he's gonna if he's on the left side, we throw everyone to the right side. It's a clear out where he can attack the rim or you know, shoot that little bank shot that that's pretty much it. We have gone away pretty much from russ screen role. He ran a field with Lebron tonight, a couple with dwife. Other than that, we've kind of gone away from Russ as the ball,

how did he shoot? And he gets it and it's a it's rogue possessions, Jason, Like, okay, so someone has the ball, we run an action through the league Monk through Lebron. The ball swings because you know, Russ's guy plays off him because that's what everything's gonna do. So when we park us in the week side, where that's kind of the toughest place to kind of hell off, right,

he's all the way in the week side. So even if you park his guy into the paint and still doesn't kind of impact the offensive action, but still so he gets the ball and then that's where he can kind of go rogue play in isolation play attack his match up there. But like he used to me, we're moving him more and more off the ball, and I think we're kind of seeing that as well. In the minutes he played twenty six minutes against Utah, twenty six minutes again tonight against uh I'm ready for God Tho.

We played Indiana twenty six minutes again tonight gets Indiana like his minutes are going down, his possessions of the basketball are going down. And I've been a proponent of it. It's just wild to watch it in real time. And it's interesting. I think this is the way to best use you know, Russell westbrook skill set. Put him um where he's attacking and already compromised defense. And that's maybe better in theory than it is an actuality when you're

watching the ball game. But it's interesting, man, we're watching this progression of how we're using Russell Westbrook, and when a d comes back, he'll be even more right subjected to uh less possessions, subjected to less offensive possessions that are surrounded by him. We're running. We've moved to non Braun and Russ liners. Remember in the off season, we're like, oh, we're gonna have one of Russ or Braun on the floor all the time. We have moved to line ups

without both of them. We are getting we would wrap and again not this. I don't want this to be a full referendum on Russ because I don't think that's what it is. But you know, we're we would rather just have Malik Monk and Taylor, Horton, Tucker, get these possessions. Get these you know, ball screen possessions. Where the floor is open, where Stanley's at the five. Let those let them run accidents. They've been good, Jason. They have been caring us for for these last few games. So I

think the Russ conundru musition interesting. But I'm still on the He's not going anywhere, you know, And I think there's ways to kind of, you know, put him still in better positions. And if I'm gonna put on the hold on, I'm gonna put you in this. Okay, Let's say Oklahoma City or some team not Oklahoma City. I don't think they have the salaries match. Let's say Orlando calls and they go, we want Russ, we want to

sell tickets. We'll give you, you know, Terence Ross and you know, some combination of salaries, and but you're gonna have to give us a first round pick whatever. So let's say a Russ trade does materialize. Would you pull the trigger? Yes? Or no? Man? That that's so tough to decide, man, And maybe like maybe that's the course

of action here. I would, you know, I think the team and who cares, you know what I think, like, I think the team would still like to see what Russ Ron and a d looked like as a collective. I also think it's just a bad look though, right You trade five players, four players, three of them super high rotation guys for Russell Westbrook over the summer, including a first round pick, and then you dump them to Orlando you know how many months later, four or five

months later for whould you say, Terrence Ross? And well, I I put the trade together a while. There's a combination of salaries. I can't remember what it is. I just don't. I just like, okay, so in those okay, so is it not a bad I'd look also to go down with the ship, like dude, you know, Rose, He's gonna shoot this poorly in the paint in the playoffs, if not worse, when defenses are really dialed in and scheming to what he likes to do. This is going

to get worse. There's not I just what have we seen this season that would lead you to believe that Russell Westbrook is going to be a successful and productive basketball player for US in a postseason series against a good basketball team. To give me one thing, is it Okay. I'll give you one thing. Playmaker. He's he's been a decent playmaker for us this season in our week schedule against mostly bad basketball teams, but in the games that

we played against good basketball teams, that hasn't translated. So again, I like, literally today in the fourth quarter, there was a play where he worked into the lane break the jump shot, ran down the floor and got absolutely dusted by Harris Laverne on the perimeter for a lamp. It's like he is actively hurting us on both ends of the floor. Yeah, it's it's it is it is again, I get okay. Like I said, that's why I bring up the Pride thing. It will look bad to trade Russ.

That will be the equivalent of Lebron and and and Rob Perlinko and Anthony Davis basically admitting, like we screwed up. Yeah, we screwed up bad. But my thing is, like, dude, like, I don't view that as a sign of weakness. I view that as a sign of strike when someone's willing to look in the mirror and be like, this didn't work. So this happened to a smaller extent, right, it wasn't to this level, but it was definitely like, oh this roster,

we buill bring it. You know. It's funny. I'll think about that team they brought in Isaiah Thomas right that, And I thought, and you know, Isaiah Thomas was supposed to be like the inside Chanles, it wasn't healthy. So it's not the same apples apples, you know, comparison, but it's interesting kind of the similarities there right there. Isaiah Thomas lebron fit wasn't what they thought it would be, and they ship half that roster out, so that could happen.

I don't think you're wrong there. I just like, that's not like I don't see how Lindo doing that deal, right, Like, I don't see any team being like, Okay, well it's

not likely, right, it's not likely. I'm just saying, like in the universe for that materialized, I am a firm believer that the Lakers would have to take that so that they would have to do and I think they have to do their due diligence to try, you know, and and and and and My thing is like like again, like I there was a point here that season about what games in We're like, you're looking at this and

you're like, Russ has been okay. Yeah, you know, like he was really bad in that stretch to start the season, and like it was, it had some really rough moments like that, you know, the okay see losses for instance, you know, but like there was that little stretch there, like ten fifteen games. We're like like this, there's this is okay, like he's not bad. But the dirty little secret there is we were playing bad teams, Raj, we

were we were we were playing bad teams. And he was also shooting abnormally well, he was shooting like thirty seven percent or something like that of wide open threes, which has since cratered until tonight at least. But like a get like like my thing, there is like outside of that little stretch where he was okay, not even really good, just like okay, like okay enough that you could look back and be like he's not the reason why they're struggling, you know. But outside of that stretch,

it's been all bad. It's been all bad. Rage. Yeah, no, you're you're not wrong there. And I think you know he's facing his mortality. I keep saying that, and the adjustment really hasn't come we're trying to make him you know this, we're trying to make Russell Westbrook not Russell Westbrook, right, Like we're turning him into this low turnover you know guard.

And when you do that, it's great, you get the no turnovers, but the domino effect is then created, right, you create this domin effect of like a guy who's you know, way more concerned about where his shot in past comes from then he's ever had to be. And no, so now you're getting these terrible shots again, these mid range pull ups. Those are the ones to me and you have to take out, like the misses at the rim what they are, if they're at the volume that

they're at, I can live with. That issue is when you confound that when you compound that with the you know, in transition dribble, contested pull up jumper or you know he had that three pointer where he got the offensive foul on I believe where he liked. I think he hit Tory Craig in the face. Like, those are the shots that we can't have, Like when a defender flies under a screen, I honestly think, like you know, his forum is okay on those when he gets a little

you know, jump stop pull up like that. That's probably where he's best. But then like the four for six from three is going to be a super anomally Obviously you're not gonna get that every night. But yeah, like it's been rough for sure. And I've always said, like this process that you want to build here and the contract is what it is. To me, I know you're ready to cut Bait and that might be and to me, I think that Bait is gonna be cut in the summer.

Uh whatever happens here unless they win a title, but I think that Bait is gonna be cut. But like, there's places we have to fit them and we're doing that now, and it's gonna look ugly, and it's looked ugly for a lot of this season, but it's the best way to put it. And and you might be right, you know, you can trade Russ for some minimum guys.

I just think that's that's such a tough decision for front obvious to make mid season because you're gonna obviously you're gonna you're gonna lose everything that you kind of did, and maybe that's the way you have to go, But man, I don't know the rest fit definitely has been ugly. I just I think when a D comes back, hopefully that kind of fits guys in the right place. But it hasn't been pretty man, and we're we're seeing the progression to moving rust more and more off ball, which

is not what we thought over the summer. The whole point of bringing Russ in was to give Lebron the more off ball actions, which he's done, but it's been with like Leek Monk and to ht h D instead of you know, instead of with Russell Western. So it's such a such an interesting kind of situation we were in right now. Yeah, so I wanted to say one thing about Russ before we can move on, and maybe maybe you and I can try to find a shred

of positivity in this somewhere. But you know, so, Pete from micro FILMERM had a really interesting uh A point that he made in the podcast today when he was referencing the predicament that Frank Vogel was put in this year, and his point was basically like, look at the first year Lebron came, it was like, let's get Paul George, and then when Paul George failed, it was like, let's bring in all these playmakers, you know, Land Stevenson and

a Jean Rondo, so on and so forth. And then when that didn't work, the the you know, they traded everything for for Anthony Davis and then their an initial goal was to get Kawhi Leonard with that, you know, because because again like this is the dirty little secret about Lebron throughout his career. You know, there's some detractors of his that like to kind of paint him as

a ballhog. But the dirty little secret about Lebron is he he wants to give the ball up, like he wants to have his you know, third slash half of the game that he's on the floor where he controls everything, but in the rest of that half, like he wants to have spot up possessions. He wants to have possessions where he can cut and do things like that. Why because that's been part of the tale of Lebron's creat

He likes to rest while he's on the court. And the only way he can feel comfortable doing that is if you can give the ball to somebody else and have them make a play. And is extend that is extended year after year, because it happened even when they traded Danny Green for Dennis Schroeder and then finally culminating with the Russell Westbrook trade. The thing that I disagree about with that particularly is with this team construct without

Russell Westbrook. Excuse me, Like, yeah, if you take Russell Westbrook out of the picture, like just for a second here as I try to paint this picture, this is not the same type of style offensively that Lebron is used to play. So traditionally, over the course of Lebron's career, guys who played off the ball were not you know, really they weren't guys who would make plays. You know.

They were more like specialists, you know, and your your Kyle Korverer's or your Shane Battiers or you know, Mike Miller's, those those types of players, and not exactly so with those types of guys, you had to have playmaking guys that can generate high quality shots for those guys. But this is why in such a book, Big Believer in Modern Basketball. This is something that we talked about a ton after that Phoenix Sun series last year. This idea of high level clothes out attacking in a five out

dribble drive and attack offense. It's kind of important for everybody to be able to do that kind of stuff, right, And so that the irony and all of this, as we saw in that Jazz game, is the Lakers actually have a lot of guys who can do that already. Like th HD can put the ball on the floor, make stuff happen. I thought he had one of his best games as a pro tonight, which there's just a

line of guys. But anyway, the but Austin reeves like he's, you know, an extremely intelligent basketball player that can put the ball on the floor and make place for people. You know, Stanley Johnston, we talked about a lot in the last pot about his basketball background and how that bred his ability to make things happen with the ball

in his hands with a live dribble. And then obviously Molique Monk is is like literally like the modern generations Microwent, you know, so like we have guys that can do that. So in this in this scheme, now with our personnel running in modern five out attack, guess what, Lebron, you don't have to have somebody at the top of the key running high pick and roll twenty five times in a row to generate quality shots for stains bill shooters.

That's not the need anymore. So I understand that coming in here in two thousand eighteen you felt the need for playmaking. I understand that. But with the direction the game is going, and with the types of players you already have on this team, with that youthful lineup that I just talked about, you don't need that anymore. And Anon and Anthony Davis is coming back, and chances are you're gonna end up upgrading th HD to somebody who's

even a little bit more polished in in mature, you know. So, Like my thing is, like the Lakers don't need Russ anymore. Why because they don't need to throw the ball to one guy in every non Lebron possession and have him

create everything. What they actually need is, hey, Lebron, like on the possessions, you want to s on the floor just starting the corner and you know, have Moleague or t HD be the guy who initially breaks down the defense and then you, yeah, you might have to do a little bit more about to do some clothes out attacking, but that's easier on your legs than doing what you have to do. And you yourself, Lebron, you don't have to do that anymore, have to be it's wide open

shots for your for your teammates anymore. You can literally do what you did against You talk set ball screens and roll to the basket while somebody else goes to work because of the anatomy of the way modern basketball has played. So that's kind of like the philosophy that I think that the Lakers need to come to terms with here, Like Russ would have made more sense if you had really traditional three and D specialists parked in the corner that did all the dirty work and just

sat there and shot threes all day long. That would have made more sense. But that's just not the construct of this team. And in theory, like man, Russ would have been a devastating five out player back in two thousand seventeen, but he's just not that guy anymore. Back in two thousand seventeen, Russ would have been an amazing fit with this team, but those days are gone and

now it's a bad fit. And so that's why I'm saying, like, like, understand, when we talk about the good team that lies here, it's a good team that is beneath the surface that doesn't really have anything to do with Russ and and that's why he needs to be viewed as, you know, somebody that needs to be gotten rid of for lack

of a better term. Yeah, and you know, the interesting part of that is, like we've the you know, Lebron a D with three and D players or even D and three players, Like that's a that's a proven formula, right, Like that's something that we've seen work already once, um even last year a little bit. Dennis Shooter is a little bit differently, but he's still you know, a defensive tycle player who doesn't command the amount of uses obviously that Russ would usually command. That's a you know, that's

a formula that's worked and has been proven. And this is the whole new experiment. And how much of this was you know, Lebron pushing for this, how much of it was you know, the front office something you know, we'll never know. But again, like I say, like maybe if you can cut Bay with Russ, I understand it. I just I don't see it happening, you know, during the season, which so I'm just trying to find ways,

I guess, to work around it. And we've we've started to do that already at a pace that I just did not expect. But Jason, we're halfway through the season and we've already, you know, cut Russ out of most of our offensive actions like that, Like that's pretty much what's happened. And I think, you know, Frank Vogel's kind of understood where he needs to put like how we need to kind of work offensively with Russ. But I don't know it's gonna be it. It's gonna be a

kind of uphill climb here. Hopefully when a D comes back we can kind of build some kind of rhythm with it, because I just don't think he's going anywhere. I don't see a trade happening. You might be right, like maybe you know, if Russ isn't playing, we could just play full three and D. But that's a lot on you know, Lebron's play, even with the other ball handlers we have, So it's a it's a tough kind

of thing to jug with here. I don't I don't know where we go though, Like this is I feel like our coach is gonna be gone tomorrow and we're gonna start brand new, Like like we're gonna start brand new. We'll see if they if they hire in house and stuff like that. But the rust stuff is tough. Man, I understand where you're at. Here, you're at the let's just jump off the ship. Um. I just think, like, this is not a ship. This is like a bed that's like clung to the floor until you know, six

until six or seven months. Like that's how like I just that's how I see it. This is a bed that's you know, changed to the ground, and we're gonna lay in this. Like I said before that you know that that's saying you made your bed, you laying it. We're gonna lay in this until you know, after the playoffs to me, and that's kind of when you can kind of make decisions on the roster. This roster has flipped three times. I would bet on it flipping again. Uh you know, maybe this deadline as well, if we

can kind of manufacture anything there. I just think Russ is going to be on the team. The focal quotes are super interesting though. Man, that's a guy who's super diplomatic went and said, uh, you know, I why do I bench for us? Because I wanted to win? That is a that's a that's a crazy quote, crazy quote from from your head coach. But I don't know. I don't have any answers there, and you might be right that movie it's time to move on. I just don't

think that time is going to be this deadline. Did you have anything else on your list you wanted to hit before we called it tonight? Man? You know, my first half notes were a lot of like, oh man, we're, you know, going small, We're starting to switch more than's. You know, there's some positive stuff we're seeing. Burn it off, burn it off, there's nothing you gotta start all over from. I guess I think we play in Orlando. Ironically, you

brought up to Orlando trade. We play Orlando next, and we'll see if we can kind of get that win. We'll see if Frank Vogel's the coach still during that time. What a chaotic What a chaotic season? Man? Oh man, it's absolutely outrageous. I am looking really quick because I wanted to double check the to see if that Stanley Johnson, th HT, Reeves, Monk and Lebron line up played any minutes tonight. So I'm checking really quick, like I think,

I think th HT deserves a shout out. Like I mentioned on Twitter, in his last six games, thirteen points on six percent for shooting. He's owing lots of defensive flashes. He was amazing against Donovan Mitchell against the Jazz. He had a lot of big defensive place tonight. He's playing himself into being a legitimate um trade asset. I still think we're at the point where, even though he's playing better, I think the Lakers are so desperate for talent that

they have to consider um, you know, using him. But it's definitely something to keep in mind. It feels like we have two separate teams, right we have this like older group and then we have this young group that comes in and plays hard, and Lebron kind of plays on both teams, which is which is really interesting. But that's what it feels like. She was awesome. Though. It looks like he's getting his field back. You know, his

drives are under a under more control. He had that drive today where he lobbed it to the League Monk. Just a lot more in control with his dribble and his actions. And uh, he's definitely you know, moving forward, moving up, maybe the you know COVID stuff, and I think he had the hand injury as well, was kind of holding him down. But his jumpers starting to be there too. I think he had two three tonight. It

was awesome. It just you know, it sucks to that he's starting to build while the team is kind of crashing down again. But you know, shout out to t H had another good night for him. All Right, guys, before we get out of here, I got I got the numbers for you. So that let me guess up. So the line that we're talking about is Reeves, Reeves, Reeves, th HD, Monk, Johnson, Lebron. Okay, I'm gonna guess. They played five minutes tonight, Bagel rog they played zero minutes.

They played zero minutes tonight. The lineup that beat the Utah Jazz and on Monday played zero minutes. Frank Vogel dug his own grave. Man, I don't know what else to tell you. That's absolutely outrageous. That is completely inexcusable. That is that is a fireable offense. I'm with you, and and then you you you know, you split that up. Carmelo Anthony thirty minutes, Avery Bradley five minutes. Just that's

that's not a winning formula. Especially when you need to switch everything kind of goes against We dove into this already, dude time, where is this all right? Guys? Well, we're uh, we probably should sleep on this. I think this entire podcast was was mostly yelling. So like I feel like I feel like Richard Sherman after knocking away the thing from Michael Crabtree. I've just way too emotional to be

doing any sort of public speaking at this point. But anyway, guys, this is gonna air on Dash Radio tomorrow morning at seven and Pacific Standard time. It will I will also piece together the Crash to Spaces and this one and put them on our podcast feed that should be live in about an hour or so. But we're blown away by the support as always. I know this is crazy and super discouraging, but there is a good team in here somewhere. They just have to actually play the players

that are good. I don't know. My guess is by the time we're talking on Friday Rise, we're gonna have Vogel out of the picture, and we're gonna be talking about We're gonna be talking about Fizzdale, and we're gonna be talking it could like and who knows, maybe Fizdale will come back on Friday and start playing DeAndre Jordan again and all just be like like literally ready to just quit um. But you know, it's it's been a

rough go. But I do, I do have a feeling that there is some sort of run in this team. It's just gonna be a matter of whether or not they ever tap into that really really quick before we before we close, and you know, if this is the I don't know if this is the elog Frank Vogo as a coach, But he's not a bad coach, right, Like he might just not be the fit for this team. But it's a great point. That doesn't mean Frank Boto

is a bad coach. It doesn't mean his philosophies are correct, doesn't mean his defensive philosophies don't have, you know, an imprint on the game with the correct lineups and stuff. But this might just not be this This just might not be the team for him. There's just a disconnect maybe between him the front office superstar whatever, between their value systems, and maybe that's just what it is. But Frank Vogo is a good coach and he's gonna, you know, be in the NBA for a very long time, even

if it's not here. So I just wanted to give that shout out. His adjustments in the playoffs I thought were excellent defensively, so so I give him a shout out. And because it was a lot of negativity towards him today and I know, I think he's a good coach that maybe just doesn't fit this team. I'm gonna save my eulogy for Friday because I don't know if I can muster up the proper list of works. I mean, you said at yourself, man like he he because of

his rigid approach. He's he's best with the team that has a talent set that fits his scheme. He was too stubborn the whole time, and he never leave like even when he wanted to lean into the approach that we were talking about. He even talked about in the pressers about how he was fighting the urge to go back. Remember that after that, I can't remember was at the Minnesota game like that that That's been the story of

Frank's time here. He's been stubborn and slow to make changes and and I think it cost him his job. And it's the unfortunate circumstance He's not the only thing to blame. There's so much more to blame, you know. But I'll say I'll say one last thing about this, and this is a This is something that my friend, our friend ven A pointed out to me in a conversation earlier today. Effort has been one of the biggest

problem them was for the Lakers this year. That goes without saying, but effort is almost always directly tied to you know, kind of like an exchange, right, Like you're exchanging work for results, Like if I'm gonna do a thing that's hard, hard to do, then I expect results

to follow. And so one of the biggest things that I think one of the things that I that I think bit of Frank Vogel in the ask this year is you know, it was hard for him to get the guys to play hard because of the fact that his schemes never really made sense with the personnel that he was playing and the personnel was failing. And I think that those things are directly tied to each other,

like it's I don't think that's a coincidence. I don't think it's a coincidence that the switchy big wing lineups that played five out basketball, played harder than the traditional drop covers lineups that were ill suited for the scheme they were running. And those lineups always seemed to be lethargic, and those lineups always seemed to underperformed to the alleged talent that they have on the floor. Those things are connected.

And I think, like again, that doesn't mean Frank step to blame for everything, but I do think that his fingers are in this pie quite a bit, and I think that I don't think that he's blameless. And I think that, you know, I think that we rudge. We we've done our part. Man like we gave we talked, We gave him so much slack. We talked so much about the good things that he brings to the table. We tried really hard to stay positive, and it just

it wasn't. It got to the point where's too much. Well, here's he's my last question for you, and we can close out on this kind. We're going a little longer. We're both guys, you know, we try to rewatch these games. And you know, Phil Frank Boggle is not a guy who came up because he had family in the NBA. He's not a guy who played in the NBA at all, right, so he has come up, was all through the film

and not saying like guys like that come up. It's just like Frank vogel story right as a guy who worked in the film room, started as a video editor, and the guy who started in the video room film and worked his way up each and every spot to become the head coach everything he got. So my question to you is like, this is the part that I struggled with, Like you watch DeAndre Jordan, you know, do the same thing through thirty million times, not give every defensively,

and yet he continued to start him. So that's like my disconnect here, like where we all watch the same tape, we all watch the same film. Where is that disconnect coming from? Because there's no way in hell to me, I don't care what you think about Frank Vogel, there's no way he's not seeing DeAndre Jordan. You know, take as I say, take the path at least resistance on every play, right, So any time that and and Frank bo was a guy his big ist supposed to be

active and in activity and all that. So that's like that's my last question to you, Like Where is that disconnect? I guess because that's where I'm like, that has been that has been my biggest like where I give Frank Vogel credit now tonight, David Bradley stuff, you know, the Carmelo Anthony stuff is just unforgivable not playing the small ball, But the DeAndre Jordan has been like was the first kind of stone to be thrown, right, the first kind of like, hey, what the hell are you doing? Why

is DeAndre Jordan's starting twenty three games? Like we've had enough data to see that this just doesn't make any sense. And now DeAndre Jordan is, you know, on the bench, riding the bench alot with camp bays Moore. But that's where, like I'm wondering that because as a film that Frank Vogel Lizzy obviously is a guy who you know, lives in the film room. What is that disconnected where like, Okay, he's seeing this yet still you know, being stubborn to

go into the same things. That's my last I guess question you there. Well, I my suspicion would be that it's primarily tied to his philosophies mixed with the fact that the Lakers have consistently wanted to keep Dwight Howard off the bench. That's been a theme ever since he signed that non guaranteed deal two years ago, just because of his attitude issues. They were under the impression that if they kept him coming off the bench, they could

kind of keep him focused on his dirty work responsibilities. Rather, if you start him, it could feed his ego and convince him that he's more important than he actually isn't get him outside of his role, you know, kind of like the guy who took that random pull up three against Denver at the start of the second half. Like, those are the kinds of things that I think wanted the Lakers, or led the Lakers to want to have Dwight come off the bench, which inherently forces you to

start DeAndre Jordan. I think it's primarily philosophy, but conspiracy theory. You know, it's possible that he's under a great deal of pressure with these decisions. Like I mean, I like

it's got it. It's a little bit of like of like a you know, a double take situation for him to bench r Us in his last game, as the Lakers said coach, like probably probably last game, I should say the that very well could be an example of of Vogel just kind of demonstrating to us that if he had it his way, he might have done things differently, but he might have been under some internal pressure. I'm not sure. I don't think that's the case. I'm just generally as a human being, I'm not much of a

conspiracy theorist. But but like that, that's certainly something that is like worth entertaining. But my guess is it's primarily tied to his philosophy. And you know, that's the thing, like like Frank's you know, Frank was a damn good coach. This is something you and I talked a lot about

over the course of the last three years. There was the famous story that I say a point out is allegedly at one point Lebron and some other Lakers actually got up and gave him a round of applause after a defensive scouting session a film session where they were going over like their defensive game plan for an opponent, like he is one of the best defensive game planners

in the league. His adjustment of putting Anthony Davis on Russell Westbrook in the Houston series completely swung that series because Russ was having some success attacking mismatches against the Laker guards in that in that Denver series, the way he was using Dwight Howard on uh on Nicola Yokich

was very successful. And then guys like like Frank Vogel's drop coverage scheam literally absolutely obliterated the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals when they actually did what he asked in Game one, in Game six, the two games that they ran it most proficiently, like, they literally absolutely demolished to the Miami Heat. So there's a reason why Frank believes in his schemes. There's a reason why he has

faith there. And here's the thing, Like, if I was a Philly fan and for whatever reason, Doc Rivers was out of the picture, I'd be sitting there like man like he'd be perfect for us. There are teams around the league where Frank's scheming fits perfect. This just isn't one of them. This needs to be this, this would

have been. This is where the Tyler thing gets kind of like iron because Tyler might not have been the right coach for the Lakers, but he damn sure is the right coach for this team with him, with with what he's done with the Clippers. With his defensive scheming and his offensive approach, he'd be perfect there. So Frank's gonna land on his feet. He's gonna get another job elsewhere. I will always be a fan of Frank and what he brings to the table. He just he was stubborn.

He was so stubborn that he dug his own grave on on this Laker team. And you know, I I've kind of oscillated back and forth in this a few times. But like when the news comes down tomorrow from Warsnowski or from whoever the hell it comes from, that Frank is fired, I'm not gonna feel sympathy for him. Because when you play fifteen minutes again into Utah Jazz with that lineup, go plus eighteen and literally win the game, and then not even attempts to use that lineup again tonight,

that is that is coaching, now practice. And at that point, you are showing me that you are too, that you're so damn stubborn that you actually look at that game and you think the winning stretch was a fluke and the losing stretch wasn't. So you default back to those things and hope for a different outcome. It's like it's like with all those advanced metrics with Avery Bradley earlier in the year, when he was like, oh, I'm aware of the advanced metrics. I'm just I believe that they'll

turn around. It's like that's his that's his philosophy. He doesn't actually care what happens on the scoreboard. He's he's more concerned with like what he thinks should happen on the scoreboard with an alleged group of players. And so he's he's so fixed on that concept that he will literally stare data in the face. He will stare a scoreboard in the face and ignore the outcome because it doesn't match with what his personal philosophies are. And I'm it's like that that that to me is that to

me is the final mail in the coffin. And it's unfortunate. Yeah, but like you know, to be just to be fair to like, his philosophy paid off, like it was rewarded. It was the right players, you know what I mean, Like it was routed with you know, just like just put like your shoe like on frame votus play right.

Like his philosophy paid off into a championship team and the front office decided to flip the rust right like like just from him, and he's like, I'm gonna change no, no no, no, Liek monk, You're going to chase over the ball streams like you know what I mean. Like that's and it's probably not the correct move, it's just what happened. And you know that's where like my sympathy

comes in with this. And again he doesn't have anthy Davis for a lot of this year, and you know, you can we've gone back and forth in terms of like the pauses and eggs and all that, but that's like where I kind of go back and forth as well, because this is the guy who's philosophy is paid off. It's not like, you know, you know, people are talking about Canada Mike D'Antoni offense win, right, you know what I mean, And Mike D'Antoni everywhere he went, he took

his offense with him. You know, James Harden turned into See Nash, turned into James Harden and turned into whoever it was in New York. Like it's just that kind of you know, was passed around because that's what you know, coaches do. They believe in what they believe in. You go twenty thirty years with the philosophy, you're going to stick with that. And Frank Vogel was, you know, rewarded with it, and then uh, the team kind of flipped around him and he had to kind of adjust to that.

And I'm not saying it's his fault. I would love to know, like, did Frank Vogel want to start Andre Dromaneszo as we did? I don't know. I don't have answers to those questions. Does he want to start DeAndre Doordan as much as we did? I don't know. Don't have to answer those questions, you know what I mean? Was he for you know, letting Crusoe walk for for what we did? Like that stuff? Like like I don't know, I don't have answers to. All I know is I

know what Frank Vogel likes to do. I know what kind of stuff he likes to run, and it doesn't fit for this team. And that's just where we are in the crossroads. But that's where my kind of sympothy comes in from, is that, like he's a guy whose philosophy is paid off and then we just stripped all of it and said start over, you know, and that

that's tough. And even though it hasn't worked out and I've been annoyed at the Lions and stuff, I just want to keep that context here because I think it's important, Um, even whoever we go forward with, Like, I think that context is import in terms of coach, star in front office and walking in unison and and that's kind of and I don't see that's what's happening right now. Well,

it's it's the perfect example, Roger. Like, it's if I picked two incredibly intelligent people just at random, there's a good chance that one of them would align more with Republican political ideals and one would aligned with democratic political I put that into that I was gonna I was gonna go that route in a second. But but my point is is, like it's possible for someone to be extremely intelligent and to be on the wrong side of something or on a different side of something someone else.

And so that's the thing with Frank. Like Frank this tonight is not an example of Frank being dumb. It's just an example of you know, I could even argue it's just him being too smart for his own good. And overthinking his own philosophies. But I was getting ready to go to bed. It is it is after midnight here in Tucson, Arizona. But we have to keep going for a few more minutes because of this news that

Franks can wait till tomorrow morning. And Chris Haynes had to put this out, you know, before they hop on the flight to Orlando. Have they even left you know whatever arena? Actually they were home tonight. What am I talking about? They were at Crypto Arena, so I don't know. They're probably hopping on a flight though, I mean either

probably tomorrow morning. But it's like, you know, the thing is, this is my initial takeaway when I saw that this is a problem with hatching your ship out in the press, which is which is one of my biggest tet peeves in general in sports when you see reported excuse me, one reporting one way or another and guys constantly trying to control the narrative one way or the other, because you know, Frank probably leaked all that stuff out with

the intention of controlling the narrative on his end, Like, hey, guys, I'm trying to coach the team and I've got this random mass failed coach, sitting on sitting into my coaches meetings, trying to tell me what to do, telling me that DeAndre George and should play more, and he's sharing that information to try to share his end of the perspective. Meanwhile, you also have probably you probably have Rob Polinka linking leaking stuff about how Lebron was advocating for the Russell

Westbrook trade. And then like there's this the immediate leak the next day from the from the Rambis and and Bus camp about how there's no plans to to to get rid of of Frank Vogel at the moment, and so so like all of this dirty laundry is getting aired out in public because of this total ship show of a season. And this is where we land now because now Frank does something, has a night and the team has a night where it's like, oh, like we

actually have to make a coaching change. But now Rambis and Bus are caught with their pants down because they just came out with the report the other day saying they're not going to do it. So it's like, like, Roger, what is the point of putting of putting Frank Vogel on that airplane tomorrow. What is the point of having him sits six rows away from Russell Westbrook after he just told the press that he didn't think he was capable of winning a game against the Indiana Pacers. Like,

what's the point of all of that? Now? Now we're entering into teenager drama here, Like this is like like like, well this is it's l a, You're going to get drama. It's just man, I feel like we've moved in so far away from the basketball and we're we've gone into

like all the stuff off of it. But it's interesting that I don't know, I don't like to me, like the report came out that uh and you know, you don't know who leaked it whatever, but that you know, they're a battle evaluating Frank on a day to day basis, that's a thurd if that's true, right, and for for for a coach, like a day to day basis for a coach, it just makes no sense to me, Like, you know, just with the variation as basketball games going again,

you can decide, you know, lineup rotations and those things and kind of uh stumble over, But I don't know like that that's those are the time kind of reports that come out when you're organizations going through some turmoil. Obviously, whenever Lebrons on the team, there's going to be an actual layer of drama and stuff. But did you see the Lebron quote tonight? Know what was it? Oh, we don't one about how the coaching staff. Yeah, Lebron's not Lebron's not allowed. Lebron is not he are But this

is the funniest thing with the Lebron stuff. He somehow has a reputation of getting coaches fired. But when you look back, it's like Paul Silists, which was so early in his career, Lebron didn't have the power to get coaches fired. And then you know David Blatt and then Luke Walton, who objectively was terrible and may or may not have been a rapist. So it's like like they're like, really, the Lebron coach fire thing doesn't actually line up with reality.

And so what's funny is like I could see Lebron just being like, I want to get as far away from this as possible, Like if they get rid of him, it wasn't my decision because I'm not allowed. I'm not about to let that get on my resume. Yeah, so I don't know, man, I don't know where they go. And you know, whatever coach comes comes in, whatever coach comes in here, obviously they can fix they can play better line up. So there's a lot of stuff this team also has to figure out internally as well. The

rust fit isn't, like I said, going anywhere. I don't care who you bring in. I don't care if you're bringing Jeremy Grant in the team, you know, over the deadline, like the rest of it has to get figured out. A d coming back has to be reintrogated, like maybe they see it how I see it, you know, Jason, that like firing Frank doesn't do much if you don't have a replacement ready, right, Like maybe they do have a replacement, right, I don't know. I just you know,

people are brought up Fisdale. Tusdale is just the easy decision, right. You know, Phil Handy is another guy zero coaching experience. I love Phil Handy, but you know, zero coaching. His brands jumping into this. So it's just fascinating. I don't know, and do you trust I don't see the Lakers going off go out and going off on some extensive coaching search either, especially in the middle of the season, it's really tough. So the perfect guy for their five attack

would be Mike D'Antoni. I'm just not sure you can bring in a coach from outside the system in the middle of the season to try to make that work. But he would be the perfect guy to optimize this roster offensively, and he would absolutely lean one thousand percent into switching everything. Maybe, but you know, Mike Cantoni's the demens of principles have been attacked. His origidness as well has been a right. Is ability to adjust in the playoffs also an issue. My point only with that is

there's no perfect option out there, right, absolutely not. There's no perfect answer. So it looks like Frank Vogel is going to survive another you know, another game at least, um they lose to Orlando, we'll be back here, I guess too. To relitigate all of it, of what we just said, I guess. But yeah, it looks like Frank Vogel's point to survive another day. I can't. I can't

believe it, man, I can't believe it. After all those quotes like like if I'm Frank, like if Frank's probably like like just pulling into his driveway at home and like getting the alert on the Chris Haine Sweet and like, oh my god, I have to go to work tomorrow. Yeah man, yeah, what can How are they? How are

they keeping me out? It's like that episode of Signed Feld where George Costanzas trying to get fired by the New York Yankees, like driving around the parking lot with the World Series trophy, just dragging around, just breaking it. That's literally what Frank did. And he's coming back just doesn't make any sense. But I, you know, I I

for his sake. I hope he's gone for his sake, because like he doesn't seem happy, he doesn't seem happy with the players trying to implement his scheme and obviously it's just not a good fit anymore. And and that's just that's just kind of where we're at. But did you have anything else you wanted to hit, buddy before we call it night? I think that's pretty much it. And you know, I just I'm not saying I disagree

with that. I just I think, you know, if Frank can stay, and he does stay, and it looks like he will, I think there's a justments that you can make. You know, tomorrow or even the next day, we'll see if they happen. But I think it's just tough man. Moving on. I've always said, you know, organizations that go through coaches on just like a regular basis, those are ones. Those are bad organizations. You know, you'll see like I don't like the Kings or something. They'll have like six

coaches in the last eight years or something like. You know, those are the kind of stuff you see from bad organ zation. So there's like a you know, there's a gray area here. But maybe it's his time. I'm not sure. I just it's tough for me to kind of just get fully on that board yet. So well, but the Lakers, like the Lakers not there either, So we're gonna go. We're gonna play this out for another game. What a

soap opera? Man? Al Right, everybody, So I think this went on long enough, then I'm probably just gonna split it into two parts, uh, since we got a couple of days to kill here, but I'll put part one before Twitter spaces crashed on us. I'll put that on our our podcast feed for two for immediately, So give it about a half hour and then I'll put the second part for Thursday was that Friday morning. But as always, guys,

we appreciate your support. If you haven't subscribed yet to the State of the Lakers podcast, you can find the link on my Twitter page. I'm pretty sure Rog has it on his Twitter page as well. But we take the recordings from every one of these spaces and we put them on there. So if you missed any part of it, obviously we got uh pretty deep into the frank stuff at the beginning. Um, But like I said, we appreciate you guys to support. We will be back

right after the final buzzer early game on Friday. I think it starts at like three o'clock your time, Roads just so a really a really early game, but we will be there. Are you heading out of town for that one? Are you gonna be here for that one? No? So I leave Saturday morning? Okay? Cool? Friday, all right, So we will see you guys after the Orlando game on Friday. Thanks, everyone, appreciate it.