Hoops Tonight x Nerd Sesh - Top 10 in NBA: LeBron ageless, Curry & Warriors back? Luka vs. Giannis

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If all of you guys had an incredible weekend, well we last week finished our top twenty five players in the NBA rankings list, like we do every single year, all new criteria, still the same amount of upset people, and I thought it'd be fun to try to pash it all out with Logan and Carson, the guys from Nerd, SESSH guys the area of the list where I faced

the most debate. There's obviously a good amount of debate around the tail end of the list, Like I didn't even have Paul Georgie in my top twenty five this year. There's just so many good players, Like I actually had a preliminary list that was like forty six forty seven players long that I all thought had like at least reasonable cases to be considered top twenty five players in the league, but not too much debate. There a little bit of stuff like, oh, where do you put Jaw

that's kind of weird. Where do you put Victor wembin Yama because he's got all this potential, Like how do you factor all this kind of stuff in? But to me, that stuff pales in comparison in terms of interest to the top part of the list. And so for me, the eleven guys that I picked for my Superstar Tier my main thought process here is basically, these are guys that if they're the best player on your team, you

have a solid chance to build a championship team around them. So, for instance, the guys immediately behind them for me, guys like Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, even at this point in his career, there's such a big injury factor that there's just such a big kind of like there's a blind spot in terms of whether or not you're actually going

to get that type of production out of them. So this is to me where the cutoff is at eleven guys, And the eleven guys in the particular order I put him in were Jokic, Luca, Jannis Sga, Anthony Edwards, Anthony Davis, Jason Tatum, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and Joel Embiid. So what I want to start before we actually kind of work through this list, is there anybody that you guys had that you think deserves to be included in this tier that I left out with you, Carson.

pull up shooter. Still a really high impact defender. But when you're talking about four straight seasons that he hasn't finished, like even at the point where you can put him on the court, and he's not one hundred percent, like he can't be out there at all, I just don't think when you're talking about intrusting a full year of your franchise that you can have him as a top ten guy.

should already make this list. The reason I say this now before you you know, before I'm struck down here by my fellow basketball geniuses, he's in one of the worst basketball situations in the NBA, Like, his roster is just not up to par, and I do think that Wemby is a step down from like being the number one de facto option in comparison to all the other guys that we've mentioned. He's not perfect, He's in no

means a finished product right now. But in this hypothetical scenario that we're doing, you know, it's a league wide redraft.

The league is restarting, and so the way I see it, there's a lot of guys I think that have different and better arguments considering the fact that they're going to have different rosters around them, and I think Wemby would be the beneficiary, a really big beneficiary of having just a more competitive roster where the league is more balanced in the way that we're doing this thought exercise, So just with his defensive tools, how great of a defensive

playmaker he already is, how much better he could potentially get next season? Do you guys think it's crazy that I'm considering him for this list that I think he has a legit case to be in the top ten here.

terms of actually seeing him play. Like there's something so unique about the NBA playoffs in terms of like going from matchup to matchup, like, like, to me, Anthony Edwards is such a great example of this, where Anthony Edwards like put up a monster statistical postseason, and even over the final half of the postseason, like the second half of the Denver series through the tail end of the Dallas series, like he still was putting up crazy statistical

performance relative to most of his peers around the league, and most people think he sucked like that. That's how crazy the NBA playoffs are. It's so physical, it's so intense, the game planning is so good that like it's just really really hard to play well in that setting. And when I think about Victor, I just think it's if someone told me, like we're gonna all just hands down agree he's top five in the league at the end of the season. Of course I believe you, but it's

just so risky and so theoretical. He was just a really tough player for me to rank in general, And for instance, the reason why I put Bam over him, is I still think like for a playoff series or a playoff run this year, BAM's just experience and his ability to play in physicality and like what he can do playing with others is a five out big I just kind of view him as to say, for bet, the Kuhi bit is super interesting because like he's twenty

eight eight and five on sixty three percent tru shooting as a playoff player with the Clippers. That's an absurd efficient, amazing production. It's just to Carson's point, like, in addition to not being able to finish a playoff series in the last four years, there has even been examples, particularly last year when they lost to Phoenix, I should say the year before this past year when they lost to Phoenix, and then the year that they made it to the

conference finals. In both of those cases, they got to April with healthy Kawhi, like did our job got him there? And he looked fucking awesome to start the playoffs, and in both of those cases he inevitably broke down, and so there just wasn't really a case there. The only other guy there was two other guys that I saw get mentioned as potential dudes. To be included in this list.

A lot of guys brought up Jalen Brunson and a lot of guys brought up Devin Booker, And again, I think both of those guys are awesome, and I do think they could be the best player on a championship team if they are surrounded by overwhelming talent, like I think, if you plug those dudes on the Boston Celtics, I

think they're still championship legitimate, top tier championship contenders. But I just think in terms of the physical imposition on the game and their half court shot creation ability, they're still just on a tier below the guys that are in that top tier. So it sounds like, for the most part, we agree. Let's move on to the actual list. Can we all agree Jokic's one? Does anybody even want to try to argue otherwise? Logan, you got it in you, you got an adversarial take, No.

for the spot is Luca. I think that those two are clearly a level above the third best guy. But in terms of Luca, I think it's harder to craft defensive role for him than it is for joks. Jokic just has a typical high drop coverage big or low drop coverage big. His ability to defensive rebound, He's gotten so active with his hands, He's a good defensive communicator. Did not have a good defensive playoff run by his standards, but Luca's was somehow way worse. So like I find

it a little bit easier to build around him. And then the two things for me with Jokic that were differentiators were one, I think I can run more styles of offense with him. I think his ability to just kind of flow from side to side as a five out big I can plug so many different types of

other ball handlers around him. The ability to put a forward next to him that can't shoot is a huge Like I was thinking about this the other day, like could you even imagine plugging Aaron Gordon in on the MAVs and how clunky that would be with their four out spacing and having Lively and Gafford rolling to the rim with the guy that you just don't have to guard in the corner, and the issues that that that that that could present, Like they just they like that

that is a unique trait that Jokics brings to the table. I just think I think in general that I just have a much more straightforward but at the same time diverse path to success with Jokic as my folkrim.

I think that with Jokic you are getting consistently a shot quality that we've arguably never seen in the history of the sport. Right he gets himself a sixty five percent shot at will because that is what he shoots on paint touch shots. He's too big, he's too skilled, his footwork is too good, his fakes are too effective for anybody to actually stop him in single coverage out of the post. And then he's also the best passer alive.

And I think you hit on a key point with the multifacet impact in with the stylistic versatility, like Luca has stretches where he is relying heavily on the pull up jumper, the step back threes, and he is really inefficient and he's actually taking your offense out of rhythm. And of course that is way way outweighed by the good in totality. But with Jokic, there is such a floor and he's always going to be extremely impactful as

a screener, as an offensive rebounder. He's gonna make quicker decisions, have quicker, more efficient touches, and I do think he's a higher impact defensive player as you say Luca was really catastrophically bad in the finals, and I don't think that he is that bad of a defender. I didn't think he was that bad of a defender in the

regular season. And there are some people who will say, well, it's harder to build a good defense around a mediocre defensive center, which you would say Jokich is a pretty average defensive center than it is even a bad perimeter defender like Luca. And while I can kind of understand that perspective because center is the most important position, I

don't think it's true. If you look at the twenty twenty three Nuggets and the level that they defended at and Jokic was legitimately defending at I would say a slightly above average level in that run because of his hands, as I c his elite, elite.

with Luca that you get that's super advantageous. And that's the thing, Like he's like basically any half court static action, he's gonna get you one point one points, like he's gonna hit like which is awesome. On the massive volume that he's doing. He did something crazy, like I want to say, over two thousand pick and rolls, ISOs and post ups including passes over, which is just an absurd number. Like his volume and shot creation just doesn't even resemble

what you see elsewhere in the league. But for the record, there's just that you get to the postseason and those further shots away from the basket, the field goal percentage starts to dip. Like he shot thirty two percent on

step back threes in that playoff run. In the NBA Finals, specifically, he shot twenty four percent on step back three on three point shots in general, So like, again, that's becoming an issue in terms of that small sample when we get there, he can't make it, which is eerily similar to the conversations we used to have about James Harden or like he would just have these crazy step back jump shooting seasons and then he would get to the postseason and they wouldn't go in at the same rate,

and it would become an issue. And one of the stats I saw that I thought was super fascinating. There's

this stat on Synergy. It's called score percentage. I'm sure you've seen it, Carson, but like the one of the things that score percent and quantifies as just the sheer percentage of your possessions that you end up leading to points, right, And specifically, Jokic's scored percentage on a shot creation is above all of his peers around the league because of the fact that like there's there may not be the

because he takes somebody hooks and floaters. There may not be the same you know, massive sample size efficiency that you might get from a guy like Luca because he's taking so many threes, but he's just getting these incredibly like consistent baskets. There's the poor shooting nights are few and far between, and so I think it's it's a pretty clear case logan. I have Luca too. I'm assuming

that we're all in the same page there. Do you think that there's any case for Yannis at three to be above Lucas I actually.

reason that Luca was so banged up last year. It's hard sustaining that kind of you know, load on your shoulders every single night, and Yokic's playstyle leans himself into you know, not taking that kind of beat up.

end of last year in the playoffs. But when the jumper is falling, I think that he is and the reason is that he's completely unstoppable out of the post, and that is simply the most efficient offense anybody can create for themselves. And in the playoffs he rants his volume up. He's a thirty point per game playoff scorer in the last four years, and he does that with

better efficiency than anybody else with remotely comparable volumes. So I do think Jason, you mentioned the volume that Luca has offensively and it's still a little bit greater than Jokic's. But Jokic's volume ratchets up as a scorer in the playoffs, and we know raw volume generally isn't the best way to be a ceiling razor offensively. You probably have to decrease your usage a bit to have more off ball value, to play a more conducive, free flowing style of offense.

That's the last thing I wanted to say. Mute my mic on all Yoki matters from now on. I'm done for the.

the Kawhi Leonards of the world. If he's off your list, if Embiat is off your list, if you're concerned about Kevin Durant getting up in an age honest on tetchakunpo oh, Jimmy Butler as well, Jannis is slowly kind of creeping into that territory, right He's played in three playoff games the past two seasons, and I understand that being a component for him being lower on this list for some people.

But when it comes to the Luca Yannis dynamic, you don't have to gimmick up your defense around Jannis, you know, you don't have to Like Luka, you don't have to just put him on the corner and hope that Luca pays attention.

Carson Jokic I think consistently has a higher floor. But because of Luca's volume and that three point shot, he's a little bit more prone to the scoring explosions. I mean, the guy dropped you know what, seventy last year on the Hawks. Like, I just don't think Jokic is ever going to impose himself the way that Luca does in that respect, where he can have those kind of explosions.

You probably never want to go to him in late game moments, right. He needs that high level guard that can compliment him in crunch time. But I think he's more impactful on the two way side, and I think in a lot of ways he's gotten a little bit more. He's gotten a little underrated after these two seasons. But I understand with his flaws and with his injury history, if you're cooling a little bit on Giannis at this point in his career.

a real problem in last year's postseason. I mean, especially in that Minnesota series, like he kept popping open to the top of the key and he just literally couldn't make a shot. Think about how big of a deal in the twenty twenty three playoff run it was that he could just drive closeouts, Like how often he'd be like beating Bam or beating Ad with just a pump fake from the top of the key because the dude

was shooting forty five percent from three. And yet at the same time, after all of that, after he declined as a jump shooter, after he had a worse defensive postseason than he's had in a few years, still had him at number one. And then it's like Luca kind of like in a weird way, And I feel bad saying this because, like I mean, he made it to the finals. He had easily the biggest moment of the postseason with that game winner over Rudy Gobert. In general

at a bunch of big moments over the court. He had a bunch of big moments over the course of that postseason run. But it's like all I can see is like there's a couple things that stuck in my head, Like he consistently kind of struggled at the end of games. That go Bear shot was a big shot, but he shot poorly in clutch time. In that entire postseason run. He tailed off at the end of games. He looked like he was getting tired. He looked like he was

struggling to get separation. The Celtics series, We've talked a lot about the defensive end of the ball, but like his jump shot fell apart at the tail end of that series when they went to Dallas, he couldn't make a jump shot, and it like from three point land

in particular, it was like really really struggling. And then Jannis, it's like that I actually thought he deserved more consideration for MVP last year, and then he goes and misses the postseason again, and he's played two and a half postseason games in the last twenty seven months, and so it's weird because all three of them kind of have these different you know, kind of like down marks for different reasons, but I kind of have them all landing in that same kind of hierarchy that I had. The

conversation is simple. Luca's benefit to me, he's very similar to Yokic in the sense that he's very physically imposing, very difficult to match up with, Like him just ripping through Jada McDaniel's like tissue paper is actually crazy. It reminds me of the previous year when Jokic ripped through ad and then like rip through those guys like like, it doesn't make sense what Luca does to extremely gifted

perimeter defenders because of his size advantages. It's just simply because he's not quite as as amenable to playing with others and because he's just not quite as consistent on a possession by possession basis with the variability, I have

to put him a level behind. But that said, like, to me, the gap between what I can do with Luca on offense and then cover for him on defense versus if I was building from scratch with Giannis, especially within the context of this type of format, it's just a little bit too wide of a gap for me. Like if I draft Luca from there, I theoretically could just take extremely high level role players the rest of

the way and have a good chance to win. If I take Yannis, I gotta find a high level ball handler, like a really high level ball handler. And theoretically, in a snake draft, like if I drafted third and I took Giannis, I might not get the player until player of what fifty six fifty seven, right, So, like I have, there are some limitations in terms of building around Yannis from the standpoint of like he's this absolute wrecking ball

of production. I do think he's one of the top tier defensive players in the league in a high leverage situation like a postseason series. His ability to be in two places at once on defense is like cheating. It's

like crazy. He is such a valuable weapon, but there's just like we're he's gonna turn thirty this year and he still doesn't have a left shoulder hook, Like, he doesn't have a shot that he can go to over a defender that goes in more than forty forty two percent of the time, and and that's an issue, Carson, did you have Luca over yon Us.

enough of a concern. Luca is very available, and even though he was dealing with some nagging injuries in this playoff run, he was still out there. He was able to play, whereas Jannis we're talking about again two and a half playoff game in the last two seasons. I do think that they're very close. The reason that I give Jannis the edge is I think Luca is just flawed enough as an offensive engine, even though he is great.

I think he's one of the top fifteen, maybe about the tenth best offensive players that we've ever seen, But compared to Jokic, there is a gap in terms of how conducive the play style is to scaling with other really good players. Again, when it comes to ceiling raising off ball, Luca has improved a bit, but there's still lots of room for improvement there, and there is a volatility that doesn't exist with a Jokic. And I'm only saying that. I know that I said I wouldn't mention

Yokic again, so I cheated. But the point is the difference between the two of them, because they are the two best offensive engines in basketball. But why I do view Jokic in a bit of his own tier, and I think that Jannis in a vacuum is actually slightly better than Luca. Luca had bad series in these playoffs.

He was pretty bad against the Clippers. He was bad in the finals, and especially with this older version of Luca, who in a lot of ways I think is the best that he's been because he has grown as a pull up shooter, but also who simply doesn't get to the rim at nearly the same rate that he did when he was younger, Like he is just more prone to all Right, I'm shooting twenty percent from three in this series, and I'm gonna take ten pull up step back threes in a game, and like that can be

a tough watch. Again, that is not good for team offense, and he doesn't have the same pats out of it. Of all, Right, well, I'm just gonna be super effective as a screener. I'm gonna get a quick touch at the elbow and spot a cutter, all these things that like a Jokic could do. Again, I cheated there, But I also think that Giannis is a little underrated right now.

And Jason, what you say about having to pair him with a high level ballhandler if you want to win the title, Well, I think yes, that's absolutely ideal because of his limitations as a half court shot creator in crunch time, which is something that I've been critical of for his entire career. It's the reason that, honestly, I was skeptical when people in wanted to proclaim Giannis as the best player in the league. Yes, that's ideal, but also like look at twenty twenty one. He didn't have

that Middleton played well on that run. Drew Holliday was wildly inconsistent. Middleton, although he did play well, was still inconsistent. Yiannis was just such an overwhelming force, and he was so dominant defensively as well, where I do think he's taken a bit of a step back now with a few more years of tread on his tires, that he

was able to will you there. And when you talk about the great regular season forces that we've seen as well, like when it does come down to just carrying the group around you to fifty five sixty wins, like nobody has been better at that than Jannis over the last seven years. I mean, that's what he's done for the Bucks year in year out. So I think that we tend to hyper fixate on his one flaw, which is that he is not a skilled shot maker, that he is not a skilled half court creator, and I want

to be clear that is a meaningful flaw. I don't want to dismiss that. At the same time, we've seen him dominate in spite of that in twenty twenty one in the playoffs, in twenty twenty two in the playoffs without Middleton on the floor, when he was incredible, and the last time he was there was ugly because even though he dropped thirty eight and twenty on the heat in that final game, which I think we can sort of gloss over, he was playing a dominant basketball game.

Then he melted down in the clutch. He couldn't make free throws, he couldn't overpower Bam physically, and it was a really, really ugly way to go out. I do think Bam is like the worst matchup in the league for him because he moves so well, because he's so strong, Like you can use the term Yannis stopper, but like Bam is is the one most problematic matchup for him

in basketball. I still think at the end of the day, you're getting a guy who walks into thirty twelve six and a half on sixty five percent through shooting, has improved as a playmaker, and is a top twenty defender in basketball. It's very, very very few teams have an answer for and because he does have such overwhelming physical imposition and the playmaking is so good now and the defense is so good now, I think the baseline there

is higher than Luca. So, although it feels like I'm making a Yanni's case, I do have Luca number two, but it's really because of health.

that because a couple of things. First of all, like Chris and Drew, there's more to that identity of that team in the sense that like that was very much a defensive minded team that mucked things up, and it was kind of like, as long as one of Drew or Chris has it going tonight, we have a really good chance of winning this particular game. But then there's also this part and I hate doing this because I hate trying to undercut champions, and they are bonavide NBA champions.

That title. There's no asterisk in my book there. Giannis is a legitimate finals MVP. All that stuff that said, I thought that was the weakest champion in the last five six years. I think that that twenty twenty one Bucks team was that, Like it's so funny how there's a focus on the bubble as being the weird season.

But the truth is is like everybody played normal basketball till March, and then when they went to the bubble, there were zero positive tests, So like everyone that was there played like it was like a static basketball environment. The twenty twenty one season was weird. It was short. We had like remember all those like would be like, oh, half the bulls are sick, they're all out this week, and it's like we've got this weird roster of a

bunch of journeymen playing today. Like that was a weird season, and like all the teams that made it to the conference finals in the previous year all got hurt if you remember correctly, Like it was just kind of a weird year. So like I'm not trying to undercut that or I'm just saying like they haven't been able to

replicate that since. And like last year it was like, oh, let's bring in a high level ball handler in terms of Dame instead of Drew, and then they promptly ended up having a whole bunch of other issues that were opened up by virtue of the fact that Drew was gone. And so the point is is, like I do think it's just a little bit tougher to build around Yiannis.

You guys, I'll make good cases. I know we could talk about this forever, but I'm gonna move on just for the sake of keeping the show moving right now. I have Carson at Jokis, Luka Yannis, and I have Logan at Jokis, Jiannis Luca. Do you both have SGA at four? Let's start with you, love.

the rim. Like when we're just talking about inside the arc scorers manufacturing shots everywhere on the floor from inside the arc, SGA's up there for you might be the best. Jokic is definitely up there. Luca's in that conversation. But SDA, if you have them above, you know, above those guys, he's not lagging far behind and so top tier offensive engine, great two way value. But I don't think he's as

prone to having these scoring explosions. Is like Luca, Like I think in I worry about him going across the finish line, and you know, when you need those big time like scoring explosions. SGA's will give you thirty every night. He's damn he's damn good for it, thirty six and six. But that's one of his flaws. And then, uh, I think in comparison to to Jannis, he just couldn't have the pronounced defensive impact. But Sga is one of the

most consistent guys in basketball. And when you're talking about that malleability, Jason right in terms of roster construction. In this thought exercise, I think Sga is one of the most malleable guys. Like Giannis gives you such a high floor, such a high baseline, a great guard gives you that great ceiling. To me, SGA is one of those great guards that gives you that great ceiling. And I think you could put a lot of guys around him that

compliment him. He's gonna take the scoring load every night, he's gonna give you thirty, he's gonna play make it a pretty high level, and he's gonna play really great defense. So I don't think I could have anybody else in this number four spot. I don't think I hear an argument for anybody else to crack this top four. I think they're solidified for me.

think he's a very clear for Really. The only limitation is that he's not an elite playmaker at this stage. I think he's an above average play but you see like there are stretches in the series where he's just not processing things quickly enough. I actually thought that in the Dallas series he was underrated as a playmaker, and I thought that although that offense was a bit stagnant overall, he was pretty consistently getting the ball to the second side.

He was making skip passes, and it was just shooting and a lack of ball moving around him that really

let him down. And in that environment with these congested paints, right when you are basically constantly seeing a big and helping position because they're just willing to roam off of whatever shooter was in the weakside corner, like Shay is still scoring with great efficiency in that environment, just because as a one on one shot creator, he's the most consistent dude that we have in the league isolation pick

and roll. He's the leading restricted area scorer among all guards, and he is the best mid range shot maker at the guard spot that we have in basketball. Threatens the drive, stops on a dime, as Logan mentions, has ridiculous body control numerous counters. He's just incredible. I also think there was so much weird SGA discourse to come out of the Dallas series. On the defensive side of the ball. There were also people who thought that like it was

his fault that Derek Jones Junior and PJ. Washington were knocking down wide open corner threes as if when you blitz a pick and roll ball handler, you don't need the lowman to slide over and tag the roller, like Esgay's doing his job, and he did it reasonably well. Like those were the shots the thunder wanted to concede, and dudes who are generally not good at those shots were good at those shots. So I do think Sga

is an above average defender. That he's not as good as the stocks totals would suggest, but I think he's an above average defender who does have some versatility on that side. Not the most versatile offensive player in terms of like off ball value playing with another real on ball star, but I don't care. He's so damn good at what he does that I think he's stamped in this spot. There's just such consistent offensive brilliance.

He's he's kind of a little bit of a catch and hold kind of guy, and so I'll be really curious to see how he develops in that regard, Like, I think he's closer to Luca than he is to Jokic in terms of offensive engines that have like real ball in player movement kind of baked into their game, which I think leads to like, I think that I think that helio centric style and and ball handlers that like can't play off the ball, I think they do lead to a little bit of a diminishing return there.

Like just simple example with Luca, Like one of the reasons why you can get away with sticking Porzingis or Horford on PJ. Washington or Derek Jones Junior and just having them camp in the paint and ignore those dudes on above the break jump shots. One of the reasons they can get away with that is because PJ. Washington and Derek Jones Junior aren't involved in action. They aren't like they aren't like coming out of a dribble handoff in the corner, like because that's the thing that's how

you'd attack. It's like, Okay, PJ. Washington is not hitting above the break threes, so that means that our center can park his ass into paint and help everywhere. Right, Well, what if you actually made Porzingis or Orford run through a few dribble handoffs, Like that's where you could start to get some real Not to mention PJ. Washington and Derek Jones, Derek Jones Jr. Are athletes, and there are athletes that can get downhill and try to make plays.

But like that's the thing, is, like, that's just not the way Dallas plays. It's not the way Dallas plays like And so what's so interesting is one simple defensive adjustment literally crippled Dallas's offense because Luca only can play one way and and and that to me at this point in his career, and that to me is and for the record, it's not just Luca's fault. Part of it is the way Dallas has empowered him. And there hasn't been enough focus organizationally on playing a different style.

And you could tell, I mean even that Mark Cuban interview the other day, and it's like, oh, Klay Thompson, like he's not gonna have to like run off the screens like it did in Golden State. We're gonna spoon feed him wide open threes in the corner, which one isn't how basketball works, and two that doesn't actually sound like something that'll help you the way that you think

it will. Like it's an organizational philosophy that is very much set around We're gonna have Luca create everything and spoon feed everybody everything, and there's a diminishing return there. I'll be curious to see. I'll be curious to see how Shae develops in that regard, because he's gonna have no choice because this Thunder roster is so good and Jalen Williams is that level of player where he's gonna have games where it's like he's the one who has

it going. That said, I was, I agree with you, Carson. I thought it was bizarre how as Jay was covered after that playoff run. I thought for his first playoff run as the guy with like real expectations, I thought he did pretty damn good. He was this close, this close to the conference finals, this close. He actually out executed Luca down the stretch of that game. He just made one defensive mistake. He found PJ. Washington in the corner.

Shaye was insane at the end of that game. Remember that step back three he hit right at the top of the key that kind of like took the edge off He had that driving dish to check Homegrin for the dunk. He had a pull up shooting stretch earlier in that game where he got crazy hot and hit a bunch of fifteen footers in a row. He was this close to sending that game two Game seven in Oklahoma City, where Oklahoma Oklahoma City would have been favored.

I actually thought he played Luca more or less evenly in that series. The one thing that is a little bit tricky there is I thought Luca had a much tougher defensive matchup, Like Lou dort is the best guy to guard Luca in the league because he's a fire hydrant that Luca can't bully, and Lucas spent half the series complaining at the refs and limping around because Lou was kind of playing super physical on him and putting

that level of like hurt and pain on him. But like Shay did play extremely well and I am a big believer in him in the long run. And like the other thing, like oh he missed some reeds. Every damn player in the league missus reeds except for Jokis Luca Lebron. Like if it's not the top tier passers, it's like those guys are up here and then there's a chasm and then everyone else. Like it's such a natural like transcendent of ability that you can't like teach

or train. It's like you either have it or you don't. That like, yeah, you get better at making reads, and Shay will miss fewer reads as he gets older. But like like with exception of those top tier playmakers, he's never gonna get to that level. Like, Shay's not going to be an eleven assist the game, guys, it's just

not in his in his game. So number five is where I started to get into a bunch of arguments with people, and the way I see it, everyone below this tier, everyone below Shae has like gaping holes that that are like harder to deal with. And so in my opinion, like I had him beat at eleven and Ant at five, you could swap those and defend it. Like if you said, guys, I have an at eleven, I'd be like, that makes sense to me. I have him beat at five. That makes sense to me, even

though I had the opposite. My case for Ant was very simple. Essentially, he's the most available star in the league right now. You can book him for seventy nine seventy eight. You know he's gonna play damn near every game the entire season. I believe that his production from the postseason was a legitimate leap, So I expect ant to average twenty eight six and six on sixty percent trough shooting this year. I think that that's something that I would be surprised if he didn't reach. At this point,

I think the jump shooting is real. I think all of that is real. And then as far as this postseason production goes, I actually think way too much focus was put on Ant struggling, which, by the way, he did, but not enough was put on the fact that, like that Minnesota roster is really limited offensively, Like the roster

is really limited offensively. They were limited offensively all year because they've got defensive specialists, guys like Rudy Gobert, guys like Nikhil Alexander Walker, guys like Kyle Anderson, guys like Jaden McDaniels. These are defensive specialists that are playing massive minutes for them, and the benefit is they're this big, bully, physical team. But they of course you can put two on the ball and pick and roll against Ant and those guys aren't going to be able to consistently score

off of it. Now, that's not to say Ant doesn't have a lot of room for improvement. Specifically the first two games of the Western Conference Finals at that he was way too passive in just getting rid of the basketball and not looking to attack in different ways like in transition or in just straight one on one to

avoid that second defender. But the reality is is, like I think, in terms of regular season production, he's in the very top tier of guys that I would expect to carry a team for an entire season this year. And as far as postseason production goes, you really can't do much better than the postseason he just had for a guy at twenty two, and I think he learned a lot of lessons he's coming off the Team USA experience.

So each of you, I want you to start by telling me why you think you're I'm wrong for picking Ant, and then who you would have at number five instead will start with you, Carson.

And I still think that there is meaningful room for improvement with him. I mean, I thought in the first series and a half of the playoffs, but before he fell against Denver, really I thought that he was outstanding. Part of that was that the pull up shooting was just ludicrously good early, especially against Phoenix. I mean, he was barbecuing them with the mid range game. He was

barbecuing them with the pull up threes. And I think that we do have to acknowledge that, like he's not quite that level of pull up shooter like we see over his first three postseason appearance is like a ten percent leap in effective field goal percentage as a pull up shooter, which even if you think like okay, because he is such an imposing downhill threat because of his strength, right his ability to just bounce off of guys and get to those mid range looks like that makes him

a better postseason shooter. I would agree with that. I just don't know that it's that sort of like that's where I am still hesitant with the sample size. Even though it's a bigger sample size now, it's still just twenty seven games, and there can be a lot of noise in numbers when you don't have a sample much larger than that with something very specific like your pull

up shooting. But I am really high on it because of his strength, because of his athleticism, because he has been a good pull up shooter when it matters, because he is generally a plus defender. I think he's a really really good on ball defender who just has some lapses in focus off ball, and he can clean up on that. The reason that I couldn't have him all the way up at five, though, is what we saw in terms of his decision making and playmaking in the

Dallas series. I'm with you, it's a tough offensive situation, right. He doesn't trust Rudy Gobert off the roll, he doesn't want to hit him, and there's a lack of consistent shot making around him, and he's playing with two bigs and he's playing against a really good defense with awesome rim protection. All of that is true, all of that is fair. At the same time, he was tentative. He was not willing to at least pressure the rim at

the necessary level. Like, even if you're facing a great rim protector, right and it's a congested paint, there are more good outcomes than bad just for getting to the rim. If you're Anthony Edwards, right, you make a kick out pass, you find an open teammate, you draw a foul, and yeah, maybe you get blocked, maybe you don't finish the lay up. But also he's like one of the best contested finishers in the paint in basketball. So I want to see him lean into his greatest strength more, which is that

freakish downhill pressure that he can apply. And again, I just think when it comes to diagnosing the defense making those skip passes, there's room for growth. I thought that he was okay, but compared to somebody who I actually have higher than him, like a Jason Tatum, I do

think that Tatum is a more mature playmaker. I do think that Tatum brings a more consistently elite impact in the non scoring areas of the game, rebounding, defense, it's close because Ant is a more reliable number one score and if you want to favor that, I mean I have been on that very side of the issue arguing that for Ant. Like you say, Jason, it's so close

with a lot of these guys. But I think Tatum's just reached the point where, like he's so great at everything, but the consistent pull up shooting where he was really bad in these playoffs, that when that shot bounces back, which is going to to some extent no matter what you think, like, that's just a more complete, refined superstar impacting winning in every way than the very young aunt who we have at this point.

is going inevitably. I think he's going to be in this top four one day. I think he's probably going to be in the top three one day. I think he's going to be an elite pull up jump shooter. The reason I have him down at number seven, though, is I just don't know if I can trust Ant's shoulder the load of an entire side of the basketball just yet. Because of those limitations. I think he's a good defender and you can build a great defense around him. I think he's a good playmaker at this point.

He was running ball screens, typically with guards, where he would draw a second defender and then throw a shovel pass over to Derek White standing wide open at the top of the key as the defenders closing out at his other opposite shoulder, and Derek White would rip through, finish the advantage and go from there. Or Tatum would get a weaker defender on a swim to someone like Jason Tatum, beat him off the dribble, make that first driving kick pass. You don't think Anthony Edwards could do that.

You realize Anthony Edwards was bringing a second defender to the screen every single time against Dallas. The problem was as a team they couldn't confront it, and again, like he was, it is being painted as like a choke job of a series. He had thirty nine assists and seventeen turnovers in five games against a defense that was entirely geared to solving him down. Now, for the record, I actually agree that if I had to start a playoff series two marrow, I would still give a slight

edge to Jason Tatum. But as I discussed in my list, this is a theoretical situation where my playoff run is starting in April. I've got another seven months worth of reps that ANT is going to get. I've got another I've got a lot more experience that I'm building around

ANT over that particular time. The point that I was trying to make is that like literally, at this point, like Jason Tatum in a situation that, like, guys, let me just paint it for you very simply, if we just took Anthony Edwards and swapped him for Jason Tatum, Just think for a minute, what would the offense look like in Boston? Like, what would it look like? Do you think ANT would struggle to generate shots for that team?

or four in MVP voting. I think he's gonna play seventy five plus games. I think he's going to be one of the best playoff players in the league next year, even though there are some limitations there. And I agree there are certainly some limitations there. I think ant Is, I'm with you, guys. I think he's really scratching the

surface of his potential. But I think a lot of the way we discuss Tatum, like he does have he is an incredibly versatile basketball player, I want to be clear about that, but like his weakness is top end ability, Like he does not have an elite first step. He is not an elite shooter. And when you are playing in situations where the talent around you is not as good as it is elsewhere in the league. That is where your top end talent is what allows you to

transcend the circumstances around you. And like I, let's just put it. Let's just let's take this for example, if you ask Jason Tatum to run the Minnesota offense this year. This year, they were what eighteenth in offensive rating or were they seventeenth something like that. They I'm pulling it up real quick. They the Minnesota Timberwolves this year were seventeenth in offense. If Jason Tatum was the primary offensive engine for that team, are they a top ten offense suddenly?

starting a team from scratch. Jason Tatum is the most versatile player in basketball, and that's where I couldn't agree with you more. He doesn't have an A plus trait. He is B plus at everything, though, and that does create a malleability where he can be effectively your point guard offensively in the NBA Finals, and he can be your center defensively. And I still don't think he gets enough credit because everybody looks at Jalen Brown and the job that he did on Ball on Luca, which was

super impressive. But Tatum's ability to be the primary matchup for the centers, to hang with them on the glass, to not get attacked in terms of post mismatches, and then to legitimately switch one through five like that shut down so much of the desperation that other defenses had to go to right blitzing and creating four on threes and getting these easy lobs off the role. Like I think Tatum was the most important defensive player in that series, and that's just a weapon and an impact he has

that Aunt doesn't at this stage. So long term, I think Ant's gonna be better than Tatum. Like, I feel weird. I feel so weird about how everything's gotten with Tatum because I feel like there were so many people last year who wanted him to be in the MVP conversation, and I was like, he's just not at that level as an individual player. But then after the playoffs, I mean, there are so many people who take it much too far and say he's not top ten and are just

solely focused on the scoring. And my take on that is it's always been an inconsistency of his it's always been frustrating. The three of us have harped many many times on his reliance on the pull up three and the volatility there, Like we can't pretend that that's never gonna happen again, that that like was just some miraculous misfortune in this postseason, but it was the worst possible

version of it. And when I think about a Tatum who shoots thirty eight percent from over a playoff run, which is totally possible, Like that's just the most complete player in basketball. Definitely not the best, not top three, not even top five, because I don't think Tatum is a top five player in basketball in a vacuum when healthy. I just think he and Ant are the two most available stars and Jokic, so I really like them to carry me through a regular season and just consistently be

out there on the court. But he's very complete, and he's extremely versatile, and at this stage, I do think that maturity makes a difference. An It's twenty three, so I cannot whatsoever discount the possibility that Ant takes a slightly bigger lead than I'm expecting, and that could be the difference between him being five and seven this year. And I do think he has a higher ceiling than Tatum,

and I think he'll eventually be better than Tatum. It's just at this point I do trust Tatum more in terms of all around impact.

no one on one matchup where he struggled. Absolutely, There's really no one that can guard him, and that to me is that top end skill. I for the record, as I'm building a roster around ant, I would be hyper focused on finding a versatile defensive forward to play at the four that can do a lot of the stuff Tatum does. And I am such a huge believer

in everything that he did. I agree with you, Like, even though Jalen Brown won the MVP, so to speak, I actually still think Tatum was their most useful and most important player over the course of that playoff run. He just isn't playing very well right now, which is a whole other issue, which I think he's gonna be fine. But that was definitely the biggest debate in my list was where we have Ant So number six I had

Anthony Davis. The main reasoning there is, like Anthony Davis at the best postseason or post up season of his career, He's taken a significant leap as an individual shot creator in a way that he had in the past. Like you can dump the ball to the post to Anthony Davis and it's actually good offense now in a way

that it wasn't in earlier phases of his career. I'm a huge fan of him as a five out fulcrum, like just in general, it's like a guy who screens and rolls into space and is in functions as a score. I actually think other than Jokic, he can't do much better than him. He was another guy who shot over fifty percent on floaters and hooks. He didn't shoot over sixty percent like Jokic's crazy ass, but he shot extremely well on floaters and hooks. That was a big leap

forward for him this year. I thought he was incredibly impressive in the first round series. I thought he played Jokic to his standstill. Though I thought he was incredible in that series, I thought he was going right out of my account. I logged the possessions earlier. There were nine possessions where he like straight up went at Jokic one on one, and he scored on him seven of the nine times. By the tail end of the series, Denver was like straight up double teaming him on the catch,

switching Aaron Gordon on him, overloading the paint. They were doing all kinds of stuff like that. I think Anthony Davis is a very useful offensive foundation, and I think he's one of the very best defensive foundations in the league. He's been very available over the course of the last year and a half. I think he's a player that scales up in the postseason. I think he's incredibly versatile

to build around. I can run four out offense. You could plug him with Luca and he'd be the most devastating roleman in the league as a like a spamming high ball screen kind of guy. But you could also put him in Golden State and he could run five out offense. You could put him in Sacramento, you could put him in you can put him with any type

of guard, any type of wing. Hell, he's playing with Lebron James as a forward where they're switching all these actions and he's still having a bunch of success as a post player. I just am super high on Anthony Davis. I think he's been playing at an incredibly high level in the calendar year, going from the tail end of the regular season, that first round series against Denver, and then he was one of the five most impactful players on Team USA this year. I'm really high on Anthony Davis.

I'm gonna kick it to you first, Logan, because I know you're really high on Anthony Davis. So tell us where specifically you had him ranked and why you feel.

and use that physical kind of game. But he's also got a little finesse right shooting turnarounds over his shoulder, the hooks, and the other aspects of the post game that he's added to his bag, and so I think he's a good offensive floor piece, and then defensively, he's the best defender on the planet and he's going to make me an elite defense. The reason the Lakers have been a good regular season team is because of Anthony Davis.

And when we're talking about it in this sort of context, the malleability of my roster, Anthony Davis compliments anybody that I get him, right, I compare an elite defender and shooter alongside Anthony Davis. I can get a guard and he's going to set screens and be a great compliment for him there on the role. But he gives me the highest defensive baseline of anybody in the league. And

you talk about that series against the Nuggets. I was really high on Anthony Davis coming into the postseason, coming into last year, right, he was a top ten guy to me. That series that we saw against Denver, and admittedly Jokic did not play a good defense series, Anthony Davis kind of bullied him offensively, that is, and it was a weaker matchup, but I was really impressed, and that offensive difference is why I'm fine with him being

five right two years ago, three years ago. Those offensive limitations may have put him lower on this list, but I'm confident in him as an offensive player, and it's that ability to anchor the glass, it's.

a little bit. In this version of Anthony Davis is a little craftier, he's a little smarter. You know, it's a grown man. I know what I'm getting. He's a real sure thing. And so that's why Ad is five for me.

And it's great that he was fully healthy this year all the way through the postseason even but I still think that like that's an advantage that an ant that a Tatum have that I just know that I can pencil them in for seventy five to eighty games, and I cannot possibly do that for Anthony Davis. However, I do think he and Lebron are very very close. For me,

I went back and forth between the two of them. Ultimately, I think I would rather take Lebron for that one game do or die format because of how he can just completely control a game offensively and impose himself physically and just create great shot after great shot for himself and others. But I do think Ad is the most important regular season player because of what he brings as a defensive anchor. As you mentioned, Logan, I think he's

the best defender on the planet. I think that he is the most complete defensive big when you consider the ability to guard in space, to play multiple different coverages, to be an elite rint protector, having great hands right when it comes to getting in passing lanes, affecting pocket passes, and he's a dominant, dominant rebounder of the basketball at this stage of his career. All of that makes him

like the perfect one. B. The other reason, on top of his health, that I couldn't quite have him in the top five is I do just think there is still a different level of complete offensive dominance from most of the dudes in that range, or with Tatum at least,

there's a different level of offensive versatility. Like eighty at this point is a damn good scorer of the basketball, but of course he's more limited as a playmaker than any somebody else who we're going to talk about in the top ten, and he just like can't carry that sort of usage, carry that sort of load where he is like elevating a team offense in the same way, he is very much meant to be the play finisher. And you mentioned Jason, He's improved as a self creator.

He's a really good post player, his touch has been phenomenal, But like fundamentally he is built to be the interior finisher in my opinion, alongside a great pick and roll ball handler, a great perimeter offensive player, and so basically to be a number two offensively, just a great number two. That's the reason, along with his health, that I have him a couple spots lower than you guys. I just think there are certain dudes who can carry heavier loads. Everybody on the list offensively.

he like he woke up. But it's like those two games he fell out, fell down two zero, and both of those games were winnable. Those are both games that were close, and it's like, that's that's catastrophic. Ad. I agree with you. He's just doesn't quite have that like real offensive engine type of capability. We talked about Tatum

and now he doesn't have an eight plus skill. They all have those issues, and so that to me is where like you could really kind of you could like Devil's advocate your way into anybody on this list being anywhere, like like just by by hyper focusing on that. Like Ad should be eleven because he's not as high level an offensive player like Joel, and Bid should be number

five because he's won an MVP. You know, like you could go back and forth on any of these guys, and but the case you make, I think makes a lot of sense that it's wish there's a certain amount of wishful thinking with AD's availability. He's been very available for a season and a half. Is that a blip or is that a trend? That's what we're gonna find out right, Like you can uh definitely poke holes there. But for me, yeah, I just the other things too.

For Ad, why I had him up there. He's one of my favorite rock fight players in the NBA, Like when you find yourself in like a real just shitthole of an ugly playoff game, like he's just a dude you want on your team because he's gonna get offensive rebound put backs. He's gonna be banging and playing in the physicality and doing well. Like he's just the kind of guy I like having in those settings. Number seven,

I had Jason Tatum. We're not gonna spend too much time on him here, just because we've talked about him quite a bit. But yeah, again, Carson, I thought you did a wonderful job breaking down his defensive versatility. He in all likelihood, is the most versatile defensive forward that's not a center. I think, I think you'd rather have a guy like Bam or Ad playing those kinds of roles,

but it's just unrealistic because they're centers. But like among the non centers, he's our most versatile defensive player in the NBA. I even I even include Giannis as like a center type of archetype in a lot of ways. So like, I agree with you in that sense. I thought I thought that, like his offensive role was very small and simple, but I also thought he executed it well, Like, yeah, just get that initial advantage and we'll play driving kick.

That's a very easy role. There are a lot of players in the league that would kill to have that role, but that's the role Tatum has and he did it extremely well. Who did I have? So hold on really quick, I have Carson. You had Tatum at five? Who did you have at se second?

And I do think that there are very very legitimate qualms with his postseason performance that doesn't just come down to dumb luck, like there are things that have consistently failed him. The reason I have him at the most obvious red flag and reason to have him lower than this or to have him off your list is health. I mean, he is the most injury prone player on this list, more so than ad, more so than anybody

else who you would have on this list. Here, though, I am going with a little bit of optimism when I think about the ceiling that is presented by any of these players, like the gap between Embiid and everybody outside of my top four in this list, Jokic, Jannis, Luke, Sga like, it's just massive. I think that when Luke, when Embiid is playing at his best, when he's healthy and available over the course of a season postseason, which to be fair, he's never been healthy over the course

of an entire season. But if you get that one run, if you strike that gold, I just think the gap in the ceiling justifies me having him above an ant who I don't think is that level of a dominant force. Yet, like when Embide is on the floor, he's just a

one of a kind monster. Like this is a dude who legitimately can give you thirty three to thirty five points a night on a lead efficiency, who was unstoppable facing up, who's two hundred and eighty plus pounds, and yet handles the ball very effectively, obviously going to eat up free throws and then defensively, I have my issues

with him. I think sometimes he gets overrated there because of his limitations in space, because of his lack of quickness moving up and down the floor in transition, but as a pure improtector, he's one of the best that we have in basketball, So there's just a ceiling of taking away the rim and being completely unguardable as a scorer offensively. That makes him obviously one of the absolute best regular season playoff performers. The reasons that it hasn't

translated in the same way to the playoffs. His jump shot has consistently failed him, and this year was improvement in that respect. Like we saw him actually have some really good jump shooting performances against the Knicks. It was still inconsistent, but like the couple years before that, he's averaging zero point six points per jump shot in the playoffs, which is just awful and way, way, way worse than

what we've seen from him in the regular season. His playmaking, also, where he's going to see way more double teams in

the playoffs, has consistently been an issue every year. I'm pretty sure before this season he had a negative assist to turnover ratio, and yeah, he demands a huge amount of defensive attention, but he was not able to consistently create a high shot quality for his teammates as much as he should considering how many double teams he's drawing, because he didn't always make the reads turn the ball

over too much. I also think him wearing down physically is a factor here, because even though he's been on the floor in these recent postseasons, rarely has he been one hundred percent. And I don't think that's a cop out. I mean, this year was the most hurt that he's been with the meniscus, and it was the best he's played, So I do think that that's a bright spot overall, even though it was still a flawed performance. But like if you're an NB defender, there's always been something that

you could point at. Right, he broke his face, he's sick his knee this year, and so you have to factor that in. But I think that there is a level of dominance that he can reach that is just different from everybody else who I have below him on my list. So I have him at six because of that. If I'm just thinking you are my number one, I need you to carry me to a title. I need you to carry me to fifty five wins in the regular season, and be it has a capability to do

that that the people below him can't. But I also understand if because of health, because of playoff stuff, because of lack of stylistic versatility, you have him off your list because all of those things have come back to bite him.

some point. Like he has that potential in a way that no one else on this list does. I had him down at eleven for the simple fact that he is a down mark in all three of my primary criteria. Is he a reliable regular season performer in the sense like is he gonna play seventy five plus games and give you consistent production every single night?

to guard in space. And then on the opposite end of the floor, guys like we just saw him look like a fish out of water playing alongside other players in ball and player movement, like literally look like he doesn't know what to do. And so those three reasons for me were the main reasons I put him at the bottom of this list. But to be clear, I don't see much gap between five and eleven. That was

just my rationale for putting him at eleven. Logan, I have, so I have eighty at five for you, who do you have at number six?

or I mean beepods. Like, I think Steph has such a hard job, and in this redraft, I can pick whoever the hell I want around him. I'm just going to give him more options offensively. I'm gonna get another secondary superstar alongside him that can help alleviate some of this pressure off of him. And I think at certain positions I can pick and choose athletic, defensive minded guys.

They're gonna make up for his limitations defensively. So I do think that Steph has lost a little bit of a step in terms of athleticism, in terms of rim pressure, right, I think you'd be a fool to not highlight those things. But again, Steph can stress the defense the way nobody in NBA.

put the pieces around him. And so the real issue, the real tough decision I had to make here, was between Steph and Lebron, And the component for me between that matchup was who do I trust more in the regular season to give me their all to play up to one hundred percent if this is a one game format. I'm gonna be honest with you, guys, I think I might take Lebron over anybody that includes maybe not Jokic,

but bronte Down, Settle Down, cow, Lebron. Lebron's one of the top three guys that I'm taking in a single game format, but when we include the regular season component of it, that's where I have a harder time ranking Lebron. And so that's why I gave Steph the nod over him.

But I just think he's got a really tough burden on his shoulders in Golden State, and in a hypothetical redraft situation, I think I could be able a really, really competitive team and a better team than the Warriors to put around him around stuff.

five percent from three. That's that's not like a little bit of a that's not superstar production anymore. And then he was pretty bad in the Winter the Winner Go Home game, and then he was pretty bad in the

Team USA up until the final two games. And even then, like I was like frustrated watching the Serbia game because like he was hitting all these shots at the start of the Serbia game, but like at the same time losing shooters on the other end, not doing his job and giving up points, and like there's a certain amount

of like athletic physical decline. But then there's this like other side of me that is such a believer in all the intangible things that Steph does, like like just something simple, like just him running around is an offensive engine in a way that it isn't for other teams. And like even with Team USA, like even when he wasn't shooting well, he was still creating all of these openings and these opportunities for people. And like, I think he's one of the best leaders in the league. Logan,

I agree with you. Like I think Lebron, there's like a certain amount of like will he try hard tonight, whereas with Steph, like I at least think he's gonna try, Like he just has a more consistent nightly effort kind of regimen in the regular season. It's kind of like part of his identity. He's one of the most well conditioned stars in the league. But it's just tough because, like there's been a legitimate defensive decline, Like he's gone from being a guy who's slightly above average on defense

to probably more on the below average side. He's just isn't as athletic as he used to be. That as far as everyone talks about the roster, and I agree, like he has easily the worst roster of these eleven guys. That goes without saying, But in twenty twenty one, he had an even worse roster than this, and he would, like know Klay Thompson, that was the Kelly Ubra year, that was the Camp Basemore year. Like that was a funky ass roster and and he was torching everybody because

he still had that unbelievable superstar high end. So like, I have this part of me, like and I truly believe this for the record, I believe that there's a good amount of slump going on there that he's going to bounce back from. And I actually I actually believe that Steph's going to have a big bounce back season. I think the Warriors will kind of rejoin the middle of the pack in the West, and Steph will kind

of re enter some of those conversations. But that is wishful thinking at this point that is not based on actual basketball that is taking place. Like that, we are on a large sample now of Steph not looking like Steph with exception of really small bursts, and so that with that being the case, Like for instance, it's like Lebron and KD both of them just simply have better cases to be above Steph at this point. They just do.

They're both substantially better two way players whenever they need to leverage their athletic gifts, and they both have been playing better offense for a long time now. So my wishful thinking isn't enough to justify like kind of taking emotion out of it and trying to look at what's actually taking place. So, Carson, where are you at with Steph? Where do you have him? Right?

is always going to be phenomenal. But when you talk about the way that Steph stresses a defense in a way that we've never seen before, like that is still leading the Warriors offense to produce at a level that does not make any human sense. With him on the floor, they were an eighty second percentile offense this year, Like, how is that possible? With Clay chucking up the worst

shots you've seen in your lifetime? Wiggins just off again for an entire year and often two complete, non shooting, unskilled scoring bigs on the floor an eighty second percentile offense, Like I do think that's where we have to give him at least some grace, some benefit of the doubt for the situation, and give him credit for what he has managed to salvage for making them a good offense in a competitive basketball team when there's just no reason

that should be the case. Still also one of the most efficient scoring guards this year, Like you mentioned his slump, Jason, in spite of that, he was still sixty two percent true shooting on the season. So for all those reasons, I still think he belongs on the list. I think people who are talking about the falloff of Steph need to settle down, understand the context, understand his one of

one impact. Like if you want to compare him to Brunson, I'm sorry, man, I just don't think that's like a real, real conversation yet. And I do think it's worth remembering. Last time it felt like Steph had regressed was in the twenty twenty two regular season, and then he had maybe the best playoff front of his career, and then he had another phenomenal regular season and a really impressive

postseason overall in twenty twenty three. So although I do think he's clearly taking a step back, I mean, Jason, you're talking about twenty twenty one Steph. That's not the Steph Curry that we're seeing, right, He's very clearly not that player. Nor is he twenty twenty two, nor do I think he's twenty twenty three. But people who think the sky is falling that he's not a top ten player,

I think are taking it too far. But we're talking about a lot of elite, elite players around him who do have different levels of two way impact who do have just completely different levels of physical imposition, And Steph has taken a bit of a step back defensively. He has taken a step back athletically. I mean he never gets to the rim any more. Seven percent of his shots were inside of three feet this year, Like you compare that to peak Steph even you know, five years ago,

like that number was in the low twenties. And so that, although he is the best pull up shooter we've ever seen, does take away an element of his scoring game, not a major one, but a slight one in terms of both production and efficiency. And it wasn't his best playmaking season. So I have Steph down at ten. I do think that when I compare him to an ad like the

two way impact just surpasses him. When I compare him to a Lebron, I do trust Lebron to very consistently get what he wants more because he still has such athletic advantages and so many ways to score and create for others. But Steph is still one hell of an offensive engine, and he still deserves a spot here.

what we know he's capable of. That slump in twenty twenty two is something that I was calling attention to at the time, and that's one of the big reasons why I do believe he's going to bounce back this year. It just was weird because, like to your point, during that twenty three game span from February twenty third on when he was in his slump, the Warriors only had a one to fourteen offensive rating with Steph on the floor.

So like during this, like the reality is all the running around has a certain amount of value, but you need Steph to hit shots. He needs to hit shots, He needs to punish teams. There needs to be another level of production there that he hasn't been able to

get to. But like I think part like I would love to just see him get another chance because he is not set up for success at this point in time, and so I'm hopeful that Golden State gives him a little bit more firepower so we could at least maybe see whether or not this is something that he still has in there. So, Carson, who did you have a number eight? You have ad at number eight, Okay, So

my number eight was Lebron. I think Lebron is playing if you strictly look at basketball played in this calendar year twenty twenty four, I don't think anybody has played better basketball than Lebron other than Luca and Jokic. I think that his playoff series was magnificent in a way that is like actually kind of overlooked, Like this is what like the two games where Jamal Murray hit the game winners, Lebron was awesome in both of those games

in clutch time, like Lebron. If you would have said, hey, it's gonna be a crunch time game and Lebron's gonna hit these shots, You're like, oh, Lakers are winning this game. The problem was is Denver scored on every single possession down the stretch, and a big part of that is they are playing three average to be defensive players at

all times. Because of their roster construct. They have Austin Reeves, who has no business guarding the opposing team's best perimeter star guarding the other team's best perimeter star, right, like Michael Porter Junior was absolutely cutting up Ruey Hatcha Murra in screen actions because he just wasn't paying attention and getting lost off the ball. Now really had a bunch of other tough responsibility to spend a bunch of time

on Jokich. It was a tough series, but like those guys were overmatched, and like, honestly I thought Lebron was playing like true top tier superstar basketball in that first round series, and a couple of Jamal Murray buckets in a Denver offense that was unstoppable at the end of the game ended up being something that they couldn't overcome. But Lebron was playing at an insanely high level in

the postseason run. He played at an insanely high level to end the regular season, and then in with Tim Usa like just another wonderful example of just his overall versatility and like everything that makes Lebron a Swiss army knife. And so again, I don't I think he's gonna play you know, sixty five to seventy five games this year. I think he's gonna play hard and maybe half of them,

maybe half of them. So I think in terms of regular season production, in terms of overall two way impact, he's probably close to the bottom of this list of eleven. But in any high leverage moment, I still should take Lebron over just about anybody in the world other than those guys at this at the very top. So I have him at number eight, did you guys, Why don't you guys, let's start with you. Logan, tell me where you guys had Lebron right.

year old Lebron Man. That doesn't make any sense. Like the fact that you're talking about the Denver series. The fact that he can go to basically a post up against everybody and it's one of the most efficient play types in all the basketball the fact that you have to send a second defender or he's getting that shot off.

players at the top of this list are. But he wouldn't be number two for me in a single game format, but I do think that he would probably be in my five spot. I still believe very very deeply in the consistent offensive brilliance of Lebron. He's a top three

transition scorer in basketball. He's an absolute freight train. He's a genius playmaker, and he just had the best jump shooting season of his career, which I think was huge to him having such a great postseason, such a brilliant regular season offensively, like when he's a forty percent three point shooter, when he's that effective a spot up player, I mean, there's just not anything approaching a hole in his game. Offensively, he's probably the most versatile offensive player

in basketball. And when he wants to be still an above average defender, still very good hands, still very smart, good defensive rebounder, an above average lowman. I wouldn't call him a good defender in totality because there's so many instances in which the effort and the focus just isn't there. But again, if we're talking about one game.

you know what I mean. So, like that's the how do you qualify that?

incredible longevity. We've never seen somebody playing at the level where you say, yeah, in a high stakes scenario, like they would be one of the first five dudes or even first ten dudes that I would take off the board at forty years old. It's it's unthinkable.

in the Denver series and somehow lost both games. And like, what's crazy too, is like he was doing like he was hitting like tough, contested mid range pull up, like he was hitting like superstar shots too, Like he looked like playing like at that top tier, superstar level. It just wasn't enough with that particular team. And I think, you know so much talk about the Lakers that that's one of the most common takes that I get, is like, oh, if Lebron's at eight and AD's at six, how did

they you know, how are they a playing team? And it's like, well, they've had that three and ten stretch, which obviously kind of nuked their regular season, but also the Lakers were I thought the Lakers were good last year. I mean they literally had seventeen wins against teams in the top ten in point differential that tied the Celtics for the most in the league. Like, I thought they did as good a job against Denver as you can

do in a loss as you can do. Yeah, you know, that was a couple of Jamal Murray shots away from being a much longer and more of a coin flip type of series.

ten players like they just are. Watch how Lebron dominates the game offensively and impacts of defensively when it matters. Watch eighty as again the best defensive player on the planet in a brilliant offensive player. The efficiency, the physical imposition from both of them, like they do their job, they play at an extremely high level. The team around them

just isn't what it needs to be. And also they've played the Denver Nuggets the last two years in the playoffs and that's a really tough draw.

can count on. He's like a real player. And by the way that he's doing what he's doing offensively while shouldering the lead point of attack defensive role, which is something he has no business fucker're doing and he's doing it, and like, if you watch it, it's like, oh, we all have known d Loo is a bad playoff performer forever. Well, guess what he bageled in the must Wing game back in Los Angeles when they needed it right like that,

that's to be expected. That's the d Angela Russell experience. And then one of the biggest matchup swings of that series was Michael Porter Junior outplayed Ruy to such a dramatic extent it was impossible to overcome. Like I actually thought because Jamal Murray was so bad. I actually other than the two shots I actually thought, Lebron and Ad

outplayed Yokitchen Murray. Now, I would say it was closer to even just because those two Murray shots, Like, say what you want about Jamal, those two shots he hit were just unbelievable shots. But Lebron and Ad did their part to make that series a real series, and the other guys got their ass kick because guess what, the other guys are better. If you told me going into that series, who do you like? Do you like KCP Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Junior or Austin Reeves, D'Angelo, Russell,

Ruycha Mura. Who you take it, Nuggets. I mean, it's not rocket it's not rockets here, it's it's not rocket science. But anyway, let's tie this thing off. So I had Uh, I had KD at nine. My reasoning for having Kad over Steph is when Steph is actually playing like Steph. I'm a big believer in Steph's overall offensive impact, and I would have him over. It's just the theoretical element

element I was discussing. KD has been playing much better basketball as of late, and that to me just kind of makes him a little bit of a safer bet heading into this particular season. As I talked about I had Steph at ten and Joel at eleven, Carson, I'm assuming you had who did you have at ten? Step That's right, Steph, And then you had at eleven Kevin Durant correct so, and then I want to come back to Kevin rand at eleven really quick before we're done, Logan, who did you have a ten?

But I can't leave him with my injury concerns. With KD, with Kawhi, with Jimmy. I think Embiid can shoulder a number one load better than those guys, while I have injury concerns about all of them. And so I know Embiid would frustrate me if I drafted him, but I would be comfortable just crossing my fingers and hoping that he can play sixty games for me and we can win, you know, ninety percent of those games.

but also be like it's ugly to watch sometimes. Yeah, like the heliocentric go stand in the corner, will set a high ball screen and then repeat, rinse, repeat, and every single possession involves maybe three passes at tops, sometimes even one or two. Like that. It is not necessarily esthetically appealing. It is not necessarily the most fun basketball to play. No, you know what I mean. I do think that that's worth bringing up. And I think that's

part of the story with embeat as well. So our last bit before we get out of move on, Yeah, go ahead, because sure, I do think.

He wasn't good down the stretch of games. The playmaking was better, and that is one reason that I'm encouraged with EMBID, but still, I mean, over four turnovers a game, some really rough stretches in that respect, and he's hurt. We look at all of that, and still he gives you thirty three ten and six on, fifty nine percent for shooting, and is plus fifty eight on off. His team was fifty eight points per hunder possessions better with

him on the floor. Like I do think there is just a level of ability with him that is so absurd that even when we can talk about all his flaws and his regression and all of those things are real, and there are people who try to pretend that they're not, and those people are not telling the truth like he is not. He has never been the playoff performer that he is regular season he hasn't really been that close. But this year was progress, and again like that production

is overwhelming. There are very very few players who could approach that. And we still agree that he can play much better, that there's area that he can clean up on that. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to be at least marginally better in and he was coming off a tornamentiscus. That's all I'm gonna say.

him versus the seven through ten tier. That's where I would just bank on his ability that puts him in the conversation with the top four for other people and in the regular season.

Why do you have Katie at eleven? You both have Katie at eleven, so give you a reason.

looks really good. I thought that he was really guarded pretty effectively. I mean, he just had some incredible over the top shot making the light you can't take away. But I mean Gobert was switching on to him really effectively.

He wasn't creating for others and he is in a much much better offensive situation than Steph and I don't think his two way impact is enough to offset that, even though I do think that he's an above average defenders, So it's just the playmaking impact not being quite comparable. And he's obviously still an amazing scorer. But when people want to say he's the best score on the planet, I can't quite agree with that because he's not the same athlete that he was even a few years ago.

And I think we have seen that. I mean, I think to the Nugget series, right, Aaron Gordon guarded him really well. Of course, the Celtics series in Brooklyn was his low point. I think he's clearly bounced back. He's played much better since then. But like those really big athletic wings who can stay in front of him, be physical with him, just give him more trouble than anybody could for prime KD.

tear injuries that have been issues. Like it's been kind of like like it's been a little bit fluky, and then last year he avoided those like flukey injuries and suddenly he plays seventy when he plays seventy five games or something like that. The one thing that's been weird with KD for me is like he's always been kind of known as one of the best one on one players in the league, and I still think he is.

I thought that the Stephan Lebron both deferring to him in that big possession against Serbia just as like, and then him just hitting that nasty left or right crossover into the jumper. Like he still can't do much better, but in the large sample, he did not have a

good one on one season last year. When he was coming off of screens, he was so deadly, And a big part of that is because such a gifted passer can see over the top in a way that a lot of playmakers can't, Like what that's been one of the coolest things to see develop about Kd's game since his achilles ruptured has been like pretty much starting in Brooklyn, like him identifying like, Oh, all I have to do is call for a ball screen, They're probably gonna show

high and I'm gonna get a four on three on most of these possessions. And he's consistently been one of the best pick and role players in the league as a result of that kind of development in his game. But ironically, like his post up and ISO game has been on the decline in large part because he's just like you said, Carson, Like he teams can put a really big forward on him now and at least force

him to take contested jump shots. Does not get to the rim at this point in his career at all whatsoever, really so, But at the same time, he's really picky, so he's very efficient when he does get there, it's just as rare for him to go, So all that stuff is legitimate. The reason why I had him over Embiid is like, I still think he's a pretty damn safe foundational piece for a franchise in the sense that, like he's super easy to plug and play into any

offensive system. He can use him in a bunch of different ways defensively, Like he's an excellent switch defender, he's an excellent lowman, he's an excellent defensive rebounder. Like he's got all of these different traits that he brings to the table there. So like, if I'm building a basketball team from scratch, I still can't do a whole lot better than Kevin Durant. But I but I had him at I had him at ten, or excuse me at nine, with Steph at ten, and then Embiid at number eleven.

But I appreciate you guys taking the time to come humor me with this, with this format. I know, it's like it's so funny, these player rankings lists. There's no way to do them without causing loopholes and everything is kind of unrealistic. Like I talk about this all the time on the show, like, oh, in a vacuum, Like game starts tomorrow, that's great. That's never how you win the trophy though, Like that's not like you don't get to you don't get to play one game tomorrow win

the trophy. Okay, playoff series that starts tomorrow, Well that's not how you do it either. Playoff run that starts tomorrow, Well, that's not how you do it either. Like you the way you get the Larry O. B starts in October and it and it's a grind and and you've got to be playing the best basketball at the right time. You've got to there's a leadership element keeping your team

engaged throughout the regular season. And like, there's so many different elements to it, and it's complicated, and I tried to kind of set that up as the criteria this year, and you guys brought a lot of solid points and arguments really quickly. Before we get out of here, why don't you guys tell us what you're working on over at nerd Set.

look up nerd Session. We've got all that, and we've also got some historical NBA content, some video essays that we put out with film as well on YouTube.

we'll be going doing the Bragging Rights list. So I'm just gonna hit like the top like four or five guys in the league truly based on what they accomplished last year. Kind of just an opportunity to pay some respects to those guys for what they accomplished. Then we have something on a Friday, I believe surrounding the GM survey. And then starting next week we are getting into season previews.

We're gonna start breaking down teams little by little. We'll do that power ranking style like we did last year. As always, we appreciate you guys for supporting the show. Thanks for coming to hang out, don't forget to support the Nerd Sash guys, and we'll see you guys on Wednesday the volume What's Up guys. As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting OOPS tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review.

As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.