Hoops Tonight - Top 25 Players of Last 25 Years: How Nikola Jokic reversed an NBA trend

Finals MVP Nikola Jokis. We also have a couple of mail bag questions we're gonna be hitting off the top. You guys are the joke before we get started. Subscribe to the Volumes YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason lt so you guys don't miss any show announcements. And for whatever reason you miss one of these videos and you can't get back over to YouTube to finish, don't forget you can find them wherever you get your podcasts.

Under Hoops tonight. Also, we're doing mail bag questions over the next couple of weeks, So any questions about absolutely anything drop in the YouTube comments and we'll be hitting them at the top of the show before we get into each player on the list. Also, lastly, it may be the NBA off season, but there is no shortage

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let's talk some basketball. So we have technically three mail back questions, but two of them are the same, so we're gonna hit those here. At the top. The second one actually is gonna be kind of part of the Nicola Jokic things. We're gonna get going to get into Jokic pretty quickly. But our first question is from kJ the Great, how do you feel about what Noah Lyles said about the NBA World Championship thing? Has probably saw this on social media over the course of the last

couple of days. Trackstar says, basically doesn't understand why NBA teams refer to themselves as world champions. So I think this debate is incredibly dumb. Why because I don't see many people refer to NBA teams as world champions. Technically, I've seen it be done before. You'll see it sometimes on broadcasts. Right, It's definitely a saying that has been used. But it's not like Americans who win the NBA Championship are walking around being like, I'm a world champion. I'm

a world champion. No one refers to themselves like that. The vast majority of NBA players, the vast majority of NBA discourse, refers to it as the NBA Championship or winning the title, or winning the championship. You don't say, Steph is a four times I'm world champion. You say Steph is a four time champion, a four time NBA champion. So to me, it's like getting mad about a problem

that doesn't actually exist. But I do want to push back on a couple of different talking points that I've heard, because I've heard a lot of people say that the NBA is a domestic league. I don't necessarily think that's true. I mean, technically it is, but the NBA is a global sport. Three of the top five players in the NBA right now per my player rankings, are not Americans. A good portion of you guys who listen to the show are not Americans. The NBA does have a very

big global appeal. Obviously, it is a domestic league in the most literal sense of the word because that's where the franchises are located, but all of the best basketball players in the world end up there. There's a massive chasm between the NBA and the second best professional league. It functions essentially as the top professional league in the world, and it has a great global appeal. It's one of the big reasons why I'm an NBA optimist about the

future for the NBA. Even though the NFL kicks the shit out of the NBA and the television ratings every year. It's because it is appealing around the globe, and I do foresee a future for the NBA where it is much more of a global sport than it actually is. So again, like, yeah, I agree in principle with the idea that referring to them as world champions as a

domestic league is not necessarily semantically correct. I also think it's important to acknowledge the NBA for what it is, which is a global professional sports league that appeals around the globe, that draws all the best players in the world, and for a sport in basketball that is very much a global game. And so I think that people are minimizing the NBA if they just simply refer to it as a domestic league, because I don't necessarily think that's true.

All Right, we have two other mailbag questions that are very related to each other and also very related to today's player that we're ranking, Nicola Yoki. So we're gonna read the questions first and then we'll actually answer the question when we get further down the list. From Shabola, way do you the NBA has gone too far in the emphasis on skill players, for example, shooting from three as opposed to slashing, rim running and post play. And

then secondly from Rowie to don. I understand you prefer to rank perimeter players separately from centers, but it just comes down to impact on winning. If you are a GM, who are you drafting first, Kobe or Duncan, Shack or Steph which player has the greatest impact on winning? Stop copping out by wanting two different lists. Rowe from the top rope. We're gonna talk about Nicola Jokic because in the early part of that segment, I have some stuff that I think is gonna help us answer both of

those questions. So table that basically what I'm looking at there is why do I rank biggs and perimeter players separately? And is there a case to be made that the league is leaning too heavily into skill and not into size and strength and trying to physically impose your will on a basketball game. We're gonna get to that in

a little bit. To start, though, Number eight and our top twenty five players the last twenty five years are raigning finals MVP Nicola Jokics, ez Accolades Best Player on a championship team in twenty twenty three, three time first Team All NBA, five time All NBA overall, back to back regular season MVPs in twenty twenty one, in twenty twenty two, and then he won the NBA Finals MVP

in twenty twenty three, really quick. For those people who wonder why have Giannis and Jokic so high even though they're so early in their careers and guys behind them that have these longer resumes, because Jannis and Jokic both had a definitive claim to be the best player in the world at one point in time, which when I get to guys like Dirk and KG, I'm just not

sure that they ever had that type of case. Right, So, even though they have longer resumes with more sustained success, and even though they are champions, I think that Jannis and Jokic reached a higher echelon in terms of the way they were measured against their peers than those guys did. So that's why I have them as high as I do. Nikola Jokic's claim to fame, in my opinion, is he's the first center to be able to anchor a championship

team in the modern era. So one of the big reasons why I value perimeterive players over centers typically this era, and one of the reasons why I rank them differently is I fundamentally view them as different positions. I would make it akin to a quarterback versus a running back, right, And maybe that's not a perfect example, but the point is is they fundamentally operate so differently within the offense that it doesn't make sense to compare a running back

with a quarterback. The responsibilities on a basketball court that are fulfilled by a center are incredibly different than the responsibilities that are fulfilled by perimeter players. Largely, a perimeter player can bring the ball in from the back court and get to where he wants to on the floor without needing someone to feed him the basketball in a

specific spot. Nikola Jokic is actually uniquely one of the few centers in NBA history who doesn't really need to be set up in his spots in order to be effective. He can get to wherever he needs to get because he is that nimble, because he sees the floor that well, because he dribbles the ball that well. But we did have an era where big men ruled the league, and we're gonna talk about that right now. MJ was kind of like this weird perimeter player dominance in an era

ruled by centers. Like if you look at the nineties, it's like Patrick ew and Karl Malone, Hu Kimolajouan, David Robinson to Kemy Matumbo. Into the early two thousands, Tim Duncan, Shack, Kevin Garnett, derk Nonvinski. These big guys ruled the league

during those eras. As a matter of fact, we had a championship team anchored by a power forwarder center in nineteen ninety four with a Kimo LaJuan, nineteen ninety five with the Kima Ladjuan, nineteen ninety nine with Tim Duncan, two thousand with Shaq, two thousand and two with Shack, two thousand and three with Duncan, two thousand and five with Duncan, two thousand and seven with Duncan, in two

thousand and eight with Kevin Garnett. In a fifteen year span, the team that hoisted the trophy was anchored by the best player being a big man ten times in fifteen years. So in that era, the center was the most valuable archetype of player, and you saw that in the results. But then the league changed. The league got smaller, the

league got faster. There's a lot more pace to the game, there's a lot more spacing the floor and having to cover a lot of ground, and as a result, slower plotting players started to have a lot less success in the NBA, and you saw that in that following era after that two thousand and nine best player on the Champions team Kobe twenty ten, Kobe twenty eleven, Dirk, there's your outlier, twenty twelve, Lebron, twenty thirteen, Lebron, twenty fourteen Duncan,

But again he wasn't really a superstar player at that point.

Tony Parker and Kawhi leond are equally or were similarly important to that team twenty fifteen, Steph Curry, twenty sixteen, Lebron, James twenty seventeen, KD twenty eighteen, KD twenty nineteen, Kawhi twenty twenty, Lebron, twenty twenty one, Yannis, who I consider to be a perimeter player in twenty twenty two, Steph Right, So we had a fourteen year span or only twice did we see a big man anchor a championship team, and the dark Noviski team in twenty eleven was anchored

by Tyson Chandler as an athletic center who fits more of a modern center role mold right, and dark Novitski effectively was just an isolation scorer on that team, a post up score. He was a tip of a spear, and then in twenty fourteen dunk In. The gap between him and the other players on his team was remarkably small. So we didn't have for a fourteen year span, we didn't have a single physically dominant big man lead a team to a championship. And you guys know how I

evaluate the game of basketball. I'd responded to new information right, and so like you guys, notice I had last year in my player rankings, I had Jokic at seven and mb to eight. That's why, because I was looking at modern NBA history, a decade and a half sample where

big guys just didn't win. They just didn't. The perimeter players won, and the league had shifted through pace and through spacing, drive and kick, tons of movement required by the players on the floor had shifted towards perimeter players and having a guy who could initiate your offense from a perimeter at a higher level than all of his peers was actually the best way to go about winning championships.

I do fundamentally see those two archetypes as different, and so I like, for me personally, that's why I rank them differently. Now to mister Rowie, the guy who laid down the criticism there, I agree with your larger point, which is who contributes most to winning, like it shouldn't matter what position, And you're right, and there are football teams in NFL history where the running back contributed more

to winning than their quarterback did. But in this particular era, it's extremely rare for a big man to have impact on winning the way that big men did during the decade and a half prior. But that's what makes Yok it's so interesting. He literally reversed that trend by dominating regular seasons for a few years and then proving that

a slower footed center could succeed in an NBA championship. Right, So, like as we look at NBA history, there are these partitions, there are eras as the game has changed, and so I do think that those two archetypes do matter and we have seen as the NBA has shifted different archetypes, rule different eras in this era. Right now, I tend to lean towards perimeter players. Maybe Jokic ends up being the blip. Maybe he ends up being a trend. We

don't know. Now, I would argue personally that Jokic's unique capabilities as a perimeter player are what allowed him to be the first center to reverse that trend. How did Yokic dominate this playoff run by being completely unguardable offensively? How is he completely unguardable offensively by basically being the offensive folkrum of the team in two man games, starting from the perimeter with Jamal Murray and by making plays out of the post. But in many cases he's bringing

the ball up the floor. In many cases, he's the one making most of the decisions. It's not like dumping the ball down to Tim Duncan on the block. It's fundamentally different. He operates functionally like a point guard for the team. And so I would argue it's more Nikola Jokic's ability to do both to be a perimeter player and be the center that has allowed him to break

that mold. And I do think the league is going to continue to favor perimeter players, including perimeter players like Jokic as we kind of move into the future here now to the second mail back question, the idea that you know, are we leaning too heavily on skill? The reality is is it doesn't matter whether or not you're a skilled team or a physical, physically imposing team, or some combination of the both. It's how good are you at them. We think about the the statement styles make

fights right, which essentially means like matchups matter right. But to me, I've always looked at it differently. It's not about the styles that make the fights, it's which style wins the fight. If a big strong team plays an overly skilled team, but the overly skilled team is more skilled, then the big strong team is good at being big,

then the skilled team will win. But if the big strong team is better at physically imposing their will on games, then the skilled team is capable of using their skill to impose their will on games, then the big team is going to win. And we've seen that recent NBA history.

We've got the Warriors teams from like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, twenty fifteen, they were not physically imposing team, but they won with skill, and then they defended at an extremely high level, but not in terms of physicality but just work and rotations and guys like Klay Thompson and Steph Curry committing to the defensive end and containing at the

point of attack. They weren't bullying teams. But then we go into this era where big teams kind of rule, right, Like the twenty twenty Lakers were huge, the twenty twenty one Bucks were huge, the twenty twenty three Nuggets were huge. But when you have this random team in there in twenty twenty two with the Warriors that was relatively small and killed teams with high level skill. So like, the reality is is the question is not whether or not a team is leaning into the wrong thing. It's you

should lean into what you're good at. Like, if you're a team that has a ton of size, lean into that as your archetype. If you have a team that has a lot of skill, lean into that as your archetype. And if you are an extremely skilled team, I believe you can win with skill. And if you are an extremely big, physically imposing team, I think you can win with that. So hopefully that answers that particular question. Now.

Nikole Yokic's archetype six to eleven center with seven to three wingspan, two hundred and eighty four pounds, big dude, super nimble, has some of the best footwork I've ever seen from a big man in terms of just being sharp with his pivot foot and not traveling, getting to his spots without getting bumped off of his base, outrageous

hand eye coordination. I actually think it's safe to say at this point that no big man has ever demonstrated better touch on short range push shots, floaters, and hook shots than Nikole Jokic has. He's one of two players in the NBA that I currently consider to be unguardable. There isn't a single NBA center that has demonstrated the ability to consistently make Yokic look uncomfortable in single coverage. Even guys like Rudy Gobert and Raymond Green and Anthony Davis.

They might get a block every once in a while or steal every once in a while. They might make some plays, but in a large sample size, Jokic is going to get comfortable in single coverage against those guys. So if you leave Nikol Jokic in single coverage, he's gonna score two out of three times in two man game if you stay glued up to Jokic. He's such a damn good screener that Jamal Murray's gonna come off

and get a wide open pull up jump shot. If you guard it in a traditional drop coverage, you're going to give up a pocket pass to Nikole Jokic and he's gonna make that floater two out of three times. So you have to send multiple defenders against him. In post up situations. You have to guard pick and rolls three on two, and he happens to be one of the best passers in the league with outstanding shooting on the back end to make you pay consistently. He is

fundamentally unguardable. There is no answer. You have to either choose to get killed in two on two and one on one coverage or to leave his teammates open and let him beat you from three. The only way is to try to outscore him them by punishing Jokic on

the other end for his slow footedness. Right, But the problem is is he's worked really, really hard in his career to kind of mitigate those issues, like he what are the things that I've talked about this on the show before, but like, why do I think slow footage centers struggle in the NBA? Transition pace, getting up and down the floor, guarding in space when teams space you out Right, those are the two big reasons that I had that big men struggle typically in the modern NBA.

But as we look closer at it, like Yo Kitsch is actually one of the best transition bigs in the league. The dude just sprints every time he has, every time he needs to, and he's he the fastest sprinter in the world. No, but when he sprints consistently, he's gonna mitigate most of the transition damage that you could do.

And I'd even take it a step further. Yo Kitch's transition sprinting is actually starting to cause problems for his for the people he's going against who don't run the floor, which is a lot of the bigs in the NBA. And then they've just found a way to guard with him and pick and roll. They were like, Hey, if we're gonna use you at the level of the screen, you got to active hands so that you can make things a little more difficult to pass out of, so that we can have a better chance to rotate on

the back end. Right, That's what he's done. He's worked really hard to be an active high pick and roll defender with his hands, getting hands on pocket passes, deflecting or making harder skip passes. He's turned himself into an average defensive player, which is mitigated damage done on that end, which has made it so that his offensive gifts can rise to the surface, right, and so now it's even harder than ever to try to outscore them on the

other end of the floor. Crowning achievement for Nikola Jokiz was winning the twenty twenty three NBA Championship. Averaged thirty points fourteen rebounds in tennis sists on sixty three percent tru shooting, made two threes per game on forty six percent shooting. Again, this was a perimeter player. Guys is

a perimeter player functionally operating as a center. He lit up Rudy Gobert in the first round, lit up DeAndre eight and in the second round, lit up Anthony Davis in the third round, lit up bam Adebayo in the fourth round. Legitimately, three of the top five defenders at his position, and none of them could do anything to stop him. And the Nuggets never even felt like they

were remotely were remotely in danger. Even when Phoenix got it to two to two, you just knew they were gonna get their ass kicked in five and six, and they did. He left absolutely no doubt. Not only did he clearly demonstrate that he's the best basketball player alive, he reversed too seemingly unbreakable NBA trends. One again, a fourteen year span where we did not have like a legitimate, bonafide superstar center leading a team to an NBA championship

fourteen years in a row. He broke that trend. And then it had literally been decades since a non defending champion who wasn't a top ten defense won an NBA championship, and he broke that trend as well. So not only is he the best player in the world, but he's shattering what our established norms are in the NBA. The biggest one if Nikola Jokic's career, in my opinion, is what if Jamal Murray did not tear his ACL in

the twenty twenty one season. Jokic was playing at a similar level in those two years and just didn't have the talent necessary to push teams over the top. Twenty twenty one, in particular, was a wide open year. That's a year they could have got it. Twenty twenty two they were super competitive with the Warriors, obviously, just lacked

that top end talent, especially in late game situations. It's very possible that we could be a lot further along in the Jokic further along in the Jokic train, had he had some better luck with his teammate in his acl All right, guys, that is all I have for today. We will be back tomorrow with number seven. As always. I appreciate you guys, and we will see you then. The volume