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dot net in West Virginia. All right, Welcome to Hoops Tonight, presented by Fan Duel here at the volume Happy Friday, everybody. We are live on AMP. Don't forget if you're watching on YouTube or listening on the podcast feed, so that AMP is the very first place that you guys can get these shows. We are going to go through five big questions, primarily focusing on the Eastern Conference at least here at the beginning with our guy Carson. Gonna get
into a bunch of good basketball stuff. You guys know the drill before you get before we get started. Subscribe to the Volumes YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason lt. So you guys don't miss any show announcements. And for whatever reason you guys miss one of these shows and you can't get back over to YouTube, don't forget. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts under
Hoops Tonight. On that note, let's talk some basketball with mister Carson. How's it going, man, It's good to see you. I am great, Jason, good to see you too, And this is the best time of the year, isn't it. Or we're getting there. You can smell the playoffs in the air, I feel, and as we get to this time of year, obviously in the East, as you mentioned, where we're gonna be focused at the start. Here there are three clear front runners, and there have been for
most of the year now Milwaukee, Boston, Philly. Who do you think is under the most pressure to win the conference win the title this year out of that group? Jason, Well, first of all, I think it's super interesting that you said that you could smell it in the air, because, like I'm straight up seeing some real playoff level intensity in a lot of these games. I think in general, the desperation is really starting to show through. We wake up this morning in the Western Conference with a four
way tie for eighth. That's gonna get shaken out here over the course of the next week or so. The Lakers have a chance to get back to five hundreds. So everyone's just scratching and clawn and it just feels like playoff basketball. I'm excited about it. So, you know, it's funny with this particular question, I immediately started to look at the teams at the top, right, I'm looking
at Boston, Milwaukee, and Philly. And the main reason why is like, there is no pressure if you don't have a real chance to win a title, that to me is silly. And even for the teams that are pretty close to the top, like Cleveland in particular, they are this is their first year with this core. They're not going to be upset as a massive underdog if they lose in the second round. You know, the same thing
goes with New York. You know, Jalen Brunson, that experiment has been a resounding success and it's not going to be the end of the world if they don't win. I think the one lower level team that might have to take a deep look in the mirror if they suffer an early exit would be Miami, just because there's some severe talent deficiencies there. But among the top teams, you know, I was really looking at just their stability
in the coming years, and Boston's payroll is completely locked up. Really, the one guy they've got to work on the summer's Grant Williams. If you look at Milwaukee, you know, Brook Lopez is going to be a free agent, but I think they're going to figure that out. Joe Ingles is going to be a free agent. My guess is he comes back. Those fits are just too natural, and I think both of those guys succeed better in Milwaukee than they would elsewhere, just because of the way their systems
are put together. Everything to me comes back to Philly and like, look, they're pretty well put together from a roster standpoint going into next season. But there's this James Harden piece and he could theoretically be an unrestricted free agent this summer. There's been intel that he might want to go back to Houston, and from what I've heard, there's it's not just like you know, a superficial reasons, there might be some real reasons for him to want
to go back there. That doesn't mean he's going to we don't know. But the reality is is like there is a lot of pressure on this particular team. I was talking with Sambassini on Tuesday, and we ranked Philly as the most talented roster out of the MVP candidates. They have a one of offensive skill. Their spot up shooting is the best in the league right now, which is a big deal next to guys like James Harden and Joel Embiid that this is undeniably the apex of
Joel Embiad's career. He's playing better basketball than he's ever played. James Harden is having an excellent season, kind of like we thought he would. And so if for whatever reason they flame out quickly, specifically under a disappointing performance from someone like James Harden in particular, I think you could see this team go in a different direction this offseason.
And so from that standpoint, there is legit pressure. I think a key thing to watch over the course of the last couple of weeks is them getting the two seed. If they get the two seed. Not only will they likely have to avoid Miami in the first round, but also it puts them in a situation where they would have home court advantage in that second round series against Boston,
which I think would be really important. What do you think, man, Well, I like that angle a lot because I think they're absolutely right if you're talking about the broader scope of where are these teams going without a doubt, there is the most uncertainty in Philly and therefore real pressure. And also if you look at it from a legacy perspective, I think that already Joel Embiad and James Harden in a vacuum are up there for the best players to never be the guy on a team to go to
the finals. Obviously Harden went there with Okac, but that was not a team that was led by him, and embat is only in year seven. But this is a guy who's back to back MVP runner up and is now going to be writing that conversation again. Darryl Morey one of the best gms to never actually go out there and win a title. Doc Rivers obviously much maligned despite all of his career success because it's been fifteen years since that title, and he's had a lot of
playoff letdowns and disappointments. So I agree with a lot of what you've said. I kind of feel like, though, in a vacuum for this year, it is Boston just because last year we looked at them, they were the best team in the league down the stretch of the regular season, they seem to be the more talented team going into the finals. They lost. They got better this year.
They improved the roster, adding your Malcolm Brogden's of the World, Derek White got significantly better, Jason Tatum got better, and they have been from the very jump this season the favorite, and now they've started to let things slip a little bit. But I do feel that there is a lot of pressure there. We have now some of the dialogue from Jaylen Brown about hey, I want to be where I'm wanted, like who knows where things will go from here? Michael
Jordan retired a wizard saying stuff like that. So although there is definitely more certainty there, it does still feel like this is a group that really wants to prove that they can win it all because last year was a great chance. This year it's gonna be tougher to do it, but they're better, and I just feel that the consistency with which they have been at the forefront of that conversation. Boston's a favorite. Boston's a favorite. There is definitely a ton of expectation to live up to
there a ton of pressure. Tatum wasn't good in the finals last year. I feel like you could argue either of those two. But I lean in a vacuum this season Boston. That's super interesting and you're kind of swaying me a little bit. Carson Um the Philly. There's undoubtedly pressure on Philly. There's the James Harden element. I didn't even think about the Doc Rivers element. That's an important part. If they flame out, you have to think that they're
going to move off with Doc Rivers. The thing that would be interesting with Boston is would you agree with me that I with my opinion that Boston, from top to bottom in terms of top end talent to different types of player, versatility to depth, that Boston has the most talent in the league. Would you agree with that? Yeah, unequivocally, but I agree, I think they're the most talented. Yeah, they're there, at least among the most talented tier of
teams in the league. So what would be really interesting is if they lost ugly, like in Round two against Philly, would you start to look at it as a situation with team construction in the lack of high level playmaking. And I mean, I mean real high level playmaking, not like, oh,
we've got not aggregate playmaking. From what Tatum can do some nights, with what Marcus Smart can do some nights, and with what Derek White can do some knights, and with what Malcolm Brogden can do some nights, I mean top tier playmaking, because if we go back through NBA history, it's like twenty twenty two, I got Steph Curry, who his combination of on ball and off ball playmaking is
I would argue top tier. I've always jokingly when I would say those top four playmakers, and I'd say Luca and Yokich and Lebron and Chris Paul, I'd always kind of throws Steph in as the honorary fifth because of his offball gravity, you know. And then I go back to twenty twenty one and Janis is a much better playmaker than Tatum Brown, and I think that was a sneaky kind of storyline of his development has been everyone looking at the shot. Really it was his passing ability
that kind of turned things around for him. You know, I go back to twenty twenty and it's Lebron freaking James. You know, twenty nineteen is a little weird, but it's Kyle Lowry and he's a better playmaker than anybody on this Boston roster. Eighteen seventeen, I've got the Warriors. Sixteen, I've got Lebron. Fifteen, I've got the Warriors fourteen, I've got that Spurs machine, thirteen twelve, I've got Lebron. You'd have to go back all the way to twenty eleven
to find a team. And even then, it's like Jason Kidd was the guy that was running that offense. And so I think there would be an interesting discussion to have if Boston flamed out early about whether or not they would need to look to flip either Jalen or Jason for a higher level playmaker, simply from the standpoint of the fact that that might be the only way they could reach that championship ceiling. This Boston team effectively is the point guard by committee type team and it's
just a question. It's just a question of whether or not you can win like that. What do you think, Well, I think it's a very interesting question. And I was skeptical of the Tatum Brown pairing for that fundamental reason. Like if you go back to two years ago when they were a five hundred team, right, and then the start of last year where they were five hundred a
quarter of the way through the season. My fundamental belief was, you have to be if you're going to be a great offense led by two wings, like in that Clippers model that we had seen work right, kawaipg both very good positional playmakers with like historically great shooting around them, And I was like, Jalen Brown is not that level of a playmaker. Tatum at that point, I was like, I'm not sure he's at that level as a playmaker. And even Kauai in PG we've talked about some of
their offensive structural issues in the past. It can still get weird. I always definitely valued that great playmaking presence. Now it's tough to sit here and say, all right, well, they just got to the finals. They were on the verge, and this year they've been up there for the best offense in the league. And they do have several good playmakers, right,
they just don't have that one leading force. And they do maintain such a defensive ende by keeping edge, by keeping that wing Tanma together and such a shot making edge. I think that what they're doing is they're trying to establish a new archetype. They're trying to show us that you can have a team that is led by two great wings who are good enough at the playmaking and you can sort of not subjugate that lead guard playmaking role but make it secondary and just get those solid
supporting pieces there. So I do think that this team is good enough. But yeah, if they fail in catastrophic fashion, and if it's because man Tatum and Brown are making bad decisions and they're struggling with the difficult shot making, I could see that being a look in the mirror kind of moment. But I honestly do feel that this Boston team is good enough. They're not my favorite this year.
I do think that Milwaukee is the best, and part of that is a faith in Jannie over Tatum thing, because I do think that Boston top to bottom has a better roster. But it's a very interesting. It's one that I've thought about for this team for years. I've I've one last follow up before we move on. Miami experience is a disappointing flame out. Boston experience is a disappointing flame out. And Brad Stevens calls up pat Riley and offers Jaylen Brown for Jimmy Butler, who says that
I think Boston says now because of age. Fundamentally, I think the Jimmy's better, But I think that you'll take your eight years of prime Jalen if you can retain him over well not maybe not eight, but you know, six or whatever versus like, who knows how many of Jimmy. Two things are changing, all right, Medicine is insane Now, guys play until they're thirty eight Lebron, But I would I would think that Boston would say no to that.
What do you think? I agree? But that would be an example of like a win now type of trade for a player that I think immediately makes them a significantly larger championship threat because Jimmy kind of addresses two specific needs the toughness piece and that shot creation piece from that like big playmaker. Again, that's just fantasy basketball that'll never happen, but it was just it was just kind of an example of what I was looking at. We can move on now. Yeah, no, that is an
interesting thought, and trust me, I love Jimmy. And by the way, I think Miami will have a disappointing play out. I don't think they're not winning a playoff series in this East. But it's interesting that you mentioned them because again we have been so focused on that tier of the top three teams. Who outside of that group of Boston, Milwaukee and Philly do you think actually has the best chance to win the East? Jason, So I think you're going to disagree with me here based on what you
just said. But I considered three different teams here, and there's a bunch of different There's a bunch of different elements that break down here, because a lot of it has to do with matchups, like a lot is going to come down to who finishes in that two three race between a Boston and Philly. But the three teams that I considered beneath that top tier in the East
that actually have a chance. I looked at the Calves, the Knicks in the heat, and so what I tried to do to try to minimize any sort of subjectivity from it, or at least minimize some of the subjectivity. Is I broke it down into some categories that I find super important for championship runs. And I looked at half court shot creation, half court play, finishing, rim protection, perimeter defense, physical strength, versatility of play style, and superstars.
And so when I looked at half court shot creation, I actually gave a slight nod to the Knicks. I have come around so much on Julius Randall and Jalen Brunson as a duo. I think they represent a super complimentary duo in the sense that Jalen Brunson is that like high pick and roll ISO guy, and then that has some of the higher level playmaking. And Julius Randall's like that big matchup attacking forward that like, when things break down, he could just bully his way to ten
feet and take a little twelve to thirteen foot fade away. Right. Even though I would argue Jimmy's the best overall player, the two of those two guys together I think make better half course shot creation, half court play finishing. I actually give it to the Heat. There's just a way better perimeter shooting team than the Knicks and the Calves. In rim protection, I went with the Calves. In perimeter defense,
I went with the Knicks. I've been super impressed with the Knicks guards as of late with physical strength, though I went to the Heat. I think they're just a little bit more stout in that front line, and they're some of their guards like guys like Max Strus and Kyle Lowry, are super broad, low center of gravity, guys that can hold up in physical confrontations, versatility of play style with Miami. They can run drop coverage, they can
run switching schemes. They're extremely smart tactically on both ends of the floor. So I put them number one there and then for superstars. Undoubtedly among that group, I would trust Jimmy Butler more than any of those other players on the other teams, and so I tallied them up. If you finish first on that list, I gave you three points. If you finished second on that list, I gave you two points, And if you finish third, I
gave you one point. In the final tally, I had seventeen for the Heat, fourteen for the Knicks, and eleven for the Cavs. So like, I actually think out of that group, based on the things that I value the most about playoff basketball, that I still think the Heat are the biggest threat to anybody, But a lot of it comes down to matchups. Like I think i'd give them a puncher's chance if Boston slipped down to three, I'd give him a puncher's chance to beat Boston, just
because there's a mental advantage there. They've beat him twice again this year. They almost beat him in the playoffs last year. But if they end up facing off with Philly, I don't like that matchup as much, just because especially with the way that they're going to have to crowd embid with their physical disadvantages, and how good Philly is shooting off the ball. Well, I think I like how you went about this. I mean it's very interesting to
have the precise calculation there. The one factor though, that I think of missing from that is that Miami is gonna have to play Boston or Philly probably in the first round, and Cleveland and New York can kind of go at each other. And bottom line, I'm not confident in any of these teams beating any of the three big dogs. Like I do think that there's a clear drop off if I were to pick one, though, I think it might be New York, and I'm tempted to
say Cleveland. I know that you're not a big Cleveland guy in the scope of contention. What I do like about them is I think they have the combination potentially of dominant interior defense and therefore dominant defense overall. Like as much as they may struggle at the point of attack, they've been the best defense in the league or top two for basically the majority of this season because they have an interior tandem like nobody else in the league.
And Mobli is an absolute monster with his versatility too and dynamic perimeter shop making. Because who do you trust more if you're talking about below that true superstar tier to carry you through a playoff series or multiple playoffs series. Then Donovan Mitchell. He's one of the most prolific playoff scorers of all time. And there's just such a dynamism
of off the dribble, shot making, attacking the rim. And then to have Darius Garland is your second guy, that to me is like a really impressive, Hey, if we can It's like they're more talented and the East was horrible at this time. But it's sort of like if you think about like an AI formula right dominant interior defense one guy, except they even have a second star
level guy in Darius Garland. The problem is they suck on the wings and their depth sucks, and I think that that just knocks them down a bit to me to where I agree with you. I really really like the star Tanem from New York right now, and who knows, right, Julius Randall has basically been defined by what level is he going to be as a jump shooter. He was all MBA because he was making his mid range pull ups, he was shooting well from deep. Then everybody decided he
sucked because he was missing those shots. And guess what, he kinda did suck last year. Then at the start of this year he was missing those shots, and then for the last six weeks or whatever, he's been blazing. And so I don't know how much I can trust that, but yeah, if he's dialed in, I love Jalen Brunson
point blank. I trust him at all times. I think that the wing combinations that they get from your Josh Hearts, your Quentin Grimes, that is better than what you're seeing from Cleveland certainly, and they're a good defensive team overall. IQ I just think they have more basketball players who I trust, and because they have that legit star Tanem too, because I do see a relatively high two way ceiling.
It's like if Brunson and Randall are both putting up their twenty eight to night, which you as kind of crazy, but they did it for a month right like we just saw it pretty much, they would be probably the scariest to me because Cleveland's depth and wing play is just too lacking. Dude, Josh Hart has been such an interesting swing piece. He's so good at so many little basketball things that he just immediately makes seems better really
quickly before you move on. Miami is seven and three in their last ten fourth and offense Jimmy Butler twenty seven, seven and six on fifty nine forty seven eighty six splits with two point one stocks. Kyle Lowry has been back, and he just brings that little bit of playmaking out of high pick and roll to get the get the shooters the shots they need in the spots. So they like that was a big part of how they beat New York was his late game playmaking the other night.
And I do worry a little bit about their closing lineup Kyle Lowry and Tyler Harrow, Jimmy and Bam that fifth guy. They've been doing a lot of Caleb Martin, but I wonder in the playoffs and the like, if that's gonna be big enough. I think they might have to go someone like Strew's who's just a little bit more stout, and so I worry about them in some specific matchups. But they're They're definitely coming on at the right time, and I do think there's a certain amount
of fear there. I do think that there's certainly some validity to that, right, Like Jimmy is the guy who you have to trust the most. I love Donovan Mitchell, but Jimmy's all around impact, Like we've seen it, right, He's gotten a team to the finals where he was incredible, and he's gotten a team to the brink of the finals again last year. And the shooting ceiling is there. They're good defensively. I have just been so dissuaded by
the persistent offensive lulls that we've seen. I mean, there's still twenty fifth and offensive raining or something like, I know that if Jimmy goes supernova, he can get them there. But just with Lowry's regression, bands had a very good season, but He's still is not an ideal like guy to lean on offensively heroes. His inconsistencies and their depth is fine, but it's not something that I love, and so because of that, I'm I'm just a little bit out on Miami.
I also just don't really enjoy watching them, and maybe there's a bit of a bias there, but like, ye, yeah, I mean every other year, Oh yeah, he certainly does not. He's got an anti Jimmy Butler agenda. The NBA season is coming down to the wire, and now is the perfect time to download fan Duel, America's number one sports book because new customers get a no sweat first bet up to one thousand dollars. That's bonus bets back if your first bet doesn't win, just download the Fandel sports
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partner of the NBA. Let's pivot out west here and talk about a team that has consistently been towards the top of the standings. But I think that a lot of people you and I both included, have had some serious questions about in terms of legitimate contention, and that is the Memphis Grizzlies. Jason, even when Jaw returns, what's their realistic title chance? I don't necessarily think that there is much of a chance there. I look at it pretty simply. Teams are going to pack the pain on
them like crazy. Without Brandon Clark, I think you're going to see a lot of Xavier Tilman and Steven Adams if you can get healthy in time in the postseason. These are the only teams in the league were set converting spot up opportunities in Memphis, Detroit, Orlando, Houston, Charlotte, in Atlanta. That's it. They are one of the worst
spacing teams in the league. And so from that standpoint, I just keep thinking so much is going to come down to John Morant and his ability to knock down for him jump shots, and he just this season, especially off the dribble, has not been very accurate. He's only shooting about thirty percent on pull up threes this year. And so I don't and I've talked to this to death. I swear I've made this same rant like three times
in the last week. So I don't want to go too much further into it, but I just don't think they have the requisite amount of offensive skill. But I did want to take this as an opportunity to present you with the question, Carson, one that I briefly floated with you over text message the other day, but I wanted to kind of dive into it a little bit deeper on the show. So I think that unquestionably right now,
Jaw is a better player than Jaren Jackson. But I also think that Jaren Jackson is unquestionably the most important player to Memphis, particularly as it pertains to their floor. And I think you see that neon off numbers. They're only about five points better when Jaw is on versus off, but they are eleven points better per one hundred possessions
when Jaren Jackson is on versus when he's off. Basically the differences is they're in extremely average team when Jaron Jackson's off the floor, and they are an elite double digit net rating team when Jaron Jackson is on the floor. And you know, it kind of reminds me a little bit of the Lebron Anthony Davis dynamic, where there's no doubt Lebron's the better player, and especially in the late rounds of the playoffs in twenty twenty, you saw that.
But take Anthony Davis off that team and they're so devoid of real front court versatility that the bottom falls out usually now to Lebron's credit because he's so damn good. He's floated that team around five hundred without a d all season. But that's Lebron James, the second greatest player of all time. Like, but that dynamic is what the
John Moray at Jaron Jackson thing reminds me of. Jah's clearly the best player, but Jaron Jackson's that guy that is so important foundationally to what they do defensively that he's the hardest for them to replace. Now, I think right now he's already one of the best defensive players in the league, and he's showing a lot of flashes offensively as a rim pressuring like rip through a physically aggressive straight line drive forward, and he's flashing some of
that perimeter shooting stuff. I think that if he can make some moderate improvements as a ball handler and was seeing the floor and can get to the point where he consistently can average about twenty five points per game efficiently with what he can do defensively, I think he's capable of being an even better player than what John morantis And that's not bad for Memphis. That's great for Memphis because if you can have two of those guys
that's excellent. Am I too high on Jared Jackson? I think if you're talking about him being up in that twenty five a game range, that's a little higher than I'm comfortable with. And I will say he is a completely different player this year and then he has been previously. Like last year, there were stretches where I would have said Jaren Jackson Junior was an offensive negative because he shot the ball very poorly. He was a playmaking zero.
But most importantly, and this was my biggest issue with him, was he was soft. Right. He was this six ten, big, quite athletic guy who could handle the ball, and he was addicted to his floaters and he wasn't good at them. Now, I think you've seen him this year be consistently more aggressive, more physical. He's getting all the way downhill more and he's making those floaters, those push shots like in the paint outside the restricted area issues better than fifty percent.
That's a pretty elite mark, and he's hitting his threes. So my questions with his ceiling are more related to how much can you entrust him with offensive responsibility when to me, he really does feel like, hey, Triple J, go attack this mismatch, right, and there's a lot of mismatches for him, but his playmaking is just not there. I mean, he's still under an assisting A is a guy who's putting up his eighteen a night, and I sometimes a lot of the times guys grow into that
skill set, right the more they handle the ball. I just don't know how much Triple J is gonna be entrusted with that because he's not a wing, right, He's a four who can get downhill because he handles the ball pretty well, and he's big and strong and athletic and he has that touch finishing. So that's one of my concerns. And then the other one is just it really is get to the rim or knock down to
three with him. I mean, he doesn't have the floater game, right, but there's no certainly no pull up jump shooting from that mid range element, which I do just think if you're talking about twenty five point per game scoring, elite
scoring like that, it does help to have. I could see him getting into twenty twenty two, and at that point there is an argument to be made because what I would say is Triple J is at that point like an ideal number two right, because he's elite defensively, and he's gonna be efficient and pretty darn productive offensively, and he's not gonna step on the toes really of your primary guy, because he's gonna get his stuff quickly.
But there is still a value that a job Morant can bring even with his at times efficiency issues and his defensive issues. Playoff career for Jaw, he's averaged twenty eight points nine assist per game, solid efficiency, but you just feel it in certain series, in certain games, it's like, man, he's the thing keeping them alive offensively because he just keeps coming at you. There's a physical imposition, there's a
playmaking that feeds off of his rim pressuring. There's a relentlessness getting to the line, which is always good, valuable, efficient offense to have, And that is like a value that a Triple J just could never reach. To me. You need your Jaw Morant, I guess is what I'm saying here. You need your perimeter driving force, and their values are just very different. Triple J could be the ideal complimentary guy. Jaw could be a not top tier top guy, but a guy who can in a specific run,
take you pretty far. I think so, I don't think you're crazy. You're saying that Triple J could be the better guy in a couple of years, but I'm not quite as high on him as you are. Well, and again, it's not one thing or the other, like ideally you have both, and I don't think I think that. Again,
I'm just saying I'm high on Jared Jackson. And to me again, like even if Jared Jackson were to supersede John Moray in total basketball value, which I actually think it's a little closer now than people are willing to admit, but even if you were to supersede him in overall basketball value, John Moraine will always represent the ceiling. The same thing goes with Lebron James. Like the truth of the matter is like they can't do anything without Anthony Davis.
He's so important to them as that foundational piece. But they are not hoisting the trophy in twenty twenty three unless Lebron James goes on another vintage playoff perimeter initiation run. Like that's just the reality this year and in the future. Nothing works unless John Morant can reach that same level offensively as a perimeter initiator. But the reality is like I've I've talked a lot with Memphis this year. Don't think they can do it this year, flat out, don't
think it's even on the table. But I am a huge believer in this core moving forward. The dynamic of that, like you called it, the Alan Iverson dynamic, but that John Morant with the outstanding interior defense, with that Dylan Brooks, the guy you could throw out the other team's best player. If you bring in the requisite amount of offensive skill to supplement those guys in the rotation, I think that
they can absolutely win an NBA championship. This is not like I actually think, excuse me, I actually think Cleveland has some significant limitations. They don't have They don't have that same level of like physical girth, you know, in terms of like just their ability to hold up in the super physicality environments. I'm actually a little higher on Memphis long even though I think Cleveland's better now and so again, it's more just to me, it's just a
point of optimism. I am super high on Jaren Jackson, and I think it puts him in a good spot moving forward. I love how you put it. That was exactly what I was trying to say Triple J can be the more valuable, better overall player. Jaw will always represent the ceiling. They will always need that offensive engine to even get in the door. But yeah, Triple J could do some special stuff. I mean, it's like you said, he's already up there for the best defensive player in
the league. And I agree with you about memphisis issues. Not a good enough half court offensive team, not skilled enough offensively. I love Desmond Baine, He's a step in the right direction. It's still not quite enough with their spot up issues. And Joe also hasn't been good enough this year when he's been out there at just point blank, his pull up jump shooting hasn't been good enough. He hasn't been efficient enough, and they need him to be great.
So let's talk now about another story that has sort of gripped the NBA. And it's not the first time that it's happened, but Mario Chalmers came out and said on a podcast as former NBA role players love to do talking about NBA greats, and said that people don't fear Lebron And we've always heard this right, people don't fear Lebron. No Chill Gill came out and said, you know, you're not scared of a guy who's going to give you twenty nine, nine and nine. I probably would be.
But why is there this narrative, Jason that players don't fear Lebron? What's your take on it? Carson? Can you give me a favor? While while I'm ranting in an infuriating fashion, can you look up for me? How many times Lebron James scored forty plus in the twenty eighteen playoffs If I remember, he was eight. So okay, I'm so glad we're finally getting around to this. This This has been irritating me for about a week, but we just haven't had an opportunity just because of how crazy the
basketball has been all the time. So here's where I'm at. I think people have and maybe it's just time. I don't know what it is, but for some reason, I think people are forgetting just how dominant Lebron James's playoff resume is. It's not the same as MJ's, but it's pretty damn dominant, certainly within this era. He has four championships.
The only players that are comparable are the Warrior's core, and they did it when they added Kevin Durant to the team and they haven't been nearly as successful without him. He has four finals MVPs. The closest is Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard with two. He has ten conference titles. The closest is the Warrior's Core with six. Here is a list of players that Lebron James has beaten four
times out of seven in a playoff series. Paul Pierce three times, Kevin Garnett three times, MVP, Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George four times, Kevin Durant, James Harden twice, Russell Westbrook twice, Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, Jason Tatum, Damian Lillard, Nicola Yokich, Jimmy Butler. He may not be the same level of dominance that MJ had in the nineties, and that certainly is a differentiating factor for me right now between those two guys. Lebron James within this era has
unquestionably been a dominant player. There is not a player that has impacted winning for as long or as frequently as Lebron James has, and it's not close. Even Steph Curry, who's the closest to him. There is a chasm between Lebron James and Steph Curry. You could take half of Lebron james career resume, and it matches what Steph has
accomplished in his career. I can absolutely guarantee you, beyond a shadow of a doubt that when a team prepares to face Lebron James in a playoff series over the last fifteen years or whatever, that there has been more than the appropriate amount of fear and fear and respect
for what he's capable of in that series. If you go into a series with the Lebron James team feeling like you have a chance to win, it's because you like some matchup somewhere else on the roster where you've got a good chance, not because you expect to outplay Lebron James. That has never ever been the case, and that's the same type of appropriate fear that existed for mj. Look. I still have Michael Jordan as my greatest of all time, and I think Lebron James needs to do more to
surpass him. But the reality is is it's getting closer and closer, and right now it is very close, and the closer it gets the more people have to go away from real basketball arguments and start relying on these completely meaningless platitudes, like random abstract concepts like fear. And this fear thing is just the latest example of that. I think I agree with a lot of what you said.
I do think there's a dynamic of this that is, it's about archetypes people when they talk about fear, they I think, favor a couple things, part of which is like the just bloodthirstiness, the deranged and obvious competitiveness that you get from a Michael Jordan or Calby Bryant. Right. I think people romanticize that it doesn't have to do with how great you are as a basketball player, when Lebron James is still absurdly competitive and is never gonna
shy away from the moment. But there is just that ROTI the romanticization of this guy is gonna come right at me, He's gonna come at my throat, He's gonna isolate, right. And I also think that there's a skill bias with all of this, where people talk about being so scared of a Jordan, of a Kobe because of difficult shot making, because of hey, I'm gonna back I'm gonna take you to the post. I'm gonna pivot six times, I'm gonna pull out a crazy spin, I'm gonna nail this shot
right in your face. And it's relentless, right, And I just think that people revere that. But oftentimes basketball is about making the right play. It's about creating your high probability looks, getting downhill for a layup, creating an open three for a teammate. And who has ever done that better in the scoring playmaker in combination than Lebron. Nobody
in my opinion. So it's not about actual basketball. You're right, because even if it is about well, he's not gonna come right at you and you know, drop forty on you, as you said it was eight times in the twenty eighteen playoffs. Well done. He is undeniably one of the greatest scores we've ever seen. And by the way, I don't know, I'd be pretty scared of a two hundred and sixty pound freight train coming at me and over
over again. You think Steph in the in the twenty eighteen finals Game one was like, ah, oh, Lebron, he's gonna dry me again. Yeah, we'll see how this goes like it's an absurd, absurd thing, and it's the same thing where like for fifteen years it's been a topic of his Lebron wrong for passing the ball to the open guy on the last possession. People have an idea of what makes a great basketball player in their mind, and I think a lot of it is because Michael
Jordan was the dream. He was perfection, and so it was like, whoever can get closest to Mike is the dream. Therefore, but it's not necessarily true, like Lebron is effectively equally great,
just in a different way. You know. It's interesting because even if we try to define this abstract concept of fear, like if you asked me to try to explain the impact that fear could have on a basketball game, the best thing that I could do to describe it is having your opponent play below their capability simply because they
lack confidence in their ability to beat you. And I have literally seen that happen dozens of times in Lebron James's career, Like I go back and I look at I literally watched Lebron James in twenty twenty after Kawhi Leonard, one of the very archetypes of players that you described as the type of person that we naturally associate with this type of fear fail to put the Denver Nuggets away. I watched Lebron James do it with what Kauhi is best at, pull up jump shooting earlier in that playoff run.
I watched him deliberately target Russell Westbrook in athleticism plays. Lebron has hardly hunted chase down blocks in the last half decade. He had like four of them against Russell Westbrook just to prove a point that like, hey, you're the most freaky athlete of your generation. I'm older than you,
and I'm still more athletic than you. You know. I go back to I go back to twenty eighteen, and I watched a Toronto Toronto Raptors team that had won what fifty nine games, that was favored to win the series, and I watched Lebron suck the life out of them in two games in Toronto on their way to the sweep. They vastly underperformed their potential because they were they simply did not believe they could beat him, even though they had a better team. That is that same type of
fear I go back to twenty fifteen. In twenty sixteen when Lebron beat the Warriors and damn near did it without Kyrie and Kevin Love, and it was mostly because both Clay Thompson and Steph Curry played well below their capability in large part because they were not confident in that setting in the same way that Lebron James was. And I can go further and further back over time, but Lebron James has absolutely had that mental impact on
his opponents. It's different, like you said, it's not the oh, He's just gonna take these ridiculously tough shots and all we can do is just pray that he misses, like it is with some of these great scores of all time. But what it is is it's a lack of confidence in the ability to beat him in basketball games. That's the same type of abstract concept, even if you don't associate it with the same visceral reaction of fear that you might have with the high with the high volume score.
And again, like there is Carson, an interesting basketball debate to have about Lebron James versus Michael Jordan. They're two completely different archetypes. Their team constructs throughout their career are so different. Like I think if Lebron James had Anthony Davis from the time that he entered the league, he'd be his Scottie Pippen and they played together for twelve years. But you know what, that's not how it worked. He didn't find a legit costar until Dwayne Wade, who immediately
broke down. And then he found Kyrie and then he broke down mentally and physically, and then he found Anthony Davis and he's breaking down physically, Like like, it's been a completely different career arc. There is an interesting conversation to have to dive into all those elements, but instead
it's like, oh, but what about the fear scale? And it just makes everybody dumber and it's completely dishonest, and it's a big part of why I don't really enjoy discussing Lebron MJ unless I'm talking with someone like you, Carson. I'm right there with you. I think that the NBA goat debate is on the verge of needing to be retired, Like it's just not fun. People don't talk about basketball, they talk about stuff like this. They talk about you know, MJ. Gambling,
they talk about Lebron's tweets. It's like it's not upon basketball conversation anymore. But it is a very interesting one. I agree with you. Last thing we're gonna touch on today, Trey Young came out and said after the Timberwolves game, which they narrowly lost, quote ref should be held more accountable and apparently implying like money, suspensions, etc. Just like us,
they shouldn't get we missed it passes. What do you think about that, Jason, Well, first of all, if there's one player in the league that I never want to hear spearheading or conversation about officiating, it's Trey Young. I Look, here's the thing. We haven't discussed a lot of Atlanta Hawks this year, in large part because they're terrible, but also because I hate, hate, hate watching that team. Even when I do like, I try to find little things that I like. Like I love de Jontay Murray's pull
up jump shooting game. It just as a basketball player and fan. It's something that I think it's super interesting. I love how he changes his release to a higher release point to help him get it off in traffic. And I find DeAndre Hunter to be a fascinating player as you're you know, classic kind of Andrew Wiggins archetype, a ripped through, simple, offensive, rim pressuring option who can
guard the other team's best player. There are things that I find that I can try to as a basketball fan watch Atlanta, but I don't watch them very much. I probably only watched them like twenty times all season because I find them. I have a visceral negative reaction to Atlanta because of Trey Young and his foul baiting, and I can't, I can't stand it. Here's the thing, there isn't There is a conversation to have about officiating,
but it's not associated with fairness. So, for instance, after the Sun's game, you have Devin Booker and Monty Williams come out and complain about officiating. That was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Because the Lakers are a team that consistently draws foul because they've got two players in particular, and Anthony Davis and Austin Reeves who are gifted at getting players out of position. There's a conversation to have
about foul grifting, which we will in a second. But the reality is, is is there an excellent foul drawing team that does not take pull up jump shots almost ever. And then the Phoenix Suns, who took forty two pull up jump shots in that game compared to just eighteen for the Lakers, because that's all they do, which is a big part of why they are twenty eight in
free throw attempts per game this season. And you're going to have that loser ass mentality to act as though officiating is the reason why you lost, when you lose the free throw battle every single game because of the type of thought the shots that you like to take. And I think a lot of times these players focus on officiating as a matter of fairness, and that to me, like I said, is a loser mentality and I'm just
not interested in having that discussion. The rests call the game consistently bad for both teams in every game that I've ever seen this year, way too much of these non basketball plays resulting in free throws. But it is indiscriminate, it is around the entire league. The versation to have is there are two there are two things that I
can't stand about officiating in the modern NBA. One is the way that it disrupts the television product simply put, it's not fun to watch the flow of the game get constantly disrupted as you see guys constantly making these unorthodox plays and stopping the flow of the game, the up and down nature of basketball, which is part of what makes it great. Like I don't know if you saw that Golden State Dallas game the other night. It was pretty back and forth, up and down there in
that fourth quarter, and it was highly entertaining. That's basketball. And so problem number one is the refs are disrupting the flow of basketball games and it is bad for the television product. And then problem number two is as a matter of personality, and some of this is just the way that that position draws people that have an authority complex. But the reality is is these guys they do not understand their role within a basketball game. The NBA exists because of the show that the players can
put on. You need the owners as a structural element to make it all work. They're the business guys. You need the media because they are what allow they are what market the players to the fans, that's important. And you need officials because they are what keep the game fair and organized. Correct. But all three of those owners of media and refs. They need to stay out of the center of focus. The players always have to be
the focus because they drive all the revenue. The only reason any of this works or makes any moment or any money is because we enjoy watching Steph Curry play basketball. And the refs so don't understand that concept, and more often than not, they push themselves to the forefront because they view themselves on equal footing to the players, and that is complete crap and until and so they have to figure out how to fix the issues with the way that the rules are interpreted to keep the flow
of back basketball games better. But they also have to find a way to filter out these dudes. And it's not all of them. I would venture to guess that at least half of them are well meaning and understand their role. But there are way too many celebrity officials in the NBA, and that, to me is a problem. They cared too much about their personal impact and fame on that stage, and it's bad for the game. It's always been that way, There's always been that dynamic, right
Joey Craft or Dick Bavetta Scott fostered out. Egos certainly can get in the way, I think that you're absolutely right on a lot of this, Like I agree that the game should be officiating differently, But I think that the biggest takeaway for me here is that people have turned so much, and I think that this has really gotten worse with the legalization of sports betting in more places, and therefore sort of the idea that we can jump to, oh my god, people have money on this. Everything is rigged.
Just the immediate blank aiming of officials for any outcome, right, the idea we saw it in the football season. Oh my god, that roughing the passer penalty in the Bengals game. How horrible. And then obviously the Super Bowl was sealed also by a call that some people felt was controversial, like and there's just a complete willful ignorance in this.
Like in that game, Trey Young took as many free throws sixteen as he did shots, and a vast majority of those are elicited from non basketball plays flailing just throwing up shots hoping he gets that little bit of contact on the hip. He is the inventor, effectively of Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna get this guy in jail out of the pick and roll. He's on my back right, he's stuck there and I'm gonna jump back into him, and that is, you know, at times, called a foul.
They've tried to change rules because of Trey Young's exploitation. So it's just completely unaware the Sun's game. You're absolutely right. They've been out shot by a dozen or more free throws in four of their last six games, and it's because they're dead last and restricted area of field goals. And the Warriors just won a title in which they were twenty six and free throw attempts because they're a
pull up jump shooting team like the Suns. The notion that you have to win the free throw battle to win the game is completely false. You win basketball games in different ways. The Suns aren't getting screwed. It's not their play style. They're not physical, and by the way, they're the fourth most foul pro team in the league.
And by the way, the Lakers, as you said, are one of the most prolific teams at drawing free throws because they're big, they're physical, and they do have those guys who can get people out of position and elicit those fouls. So it's just very frustrating me. I mean, Trey Young saying something actually makes my blood boiled, because it's like, buddy, you are the problem, like you are
the embodiment Luca insinuating that the refs are paid. It's like Lucas also in that top tier of Let me manipulate the refs, let me draw this questionable foul that is called by the books right now, but isn't good for basketball, not a basketball play. It's very frustrating, and I think that we need to have a real referendum here on. Hey guys, this isn't the two thousand and two Western Conference finals, right like, this is not well
that might you know, that might be a legitimate. It's just bad rules and an honest bad call every once in a while. But you can't threaten that with, you know, sending these guys to the gallows, Like that's that's absurd. You don't get punished for messing up honestly as a player. Beyond the result. Reps are doing their best. It's just I agree with you. There's bad rules, and Trey Young
is an exploitter of those bad rules. The whole thing is just one giant, intellectually dishonest debate because I'm so I'm so glad you said that, Like you, that's just one part of the game of basketball. I literally talked about the center of last show that after Warriors Mavericks, like there are usually at least a half dozen things that go horribly wrong in a basketball game, and sometimes
all six of them go against you. You know, like there was what was that Rockets Warriors game that won a couple of years ago when Katie was still there, when he stepped like four feet out of bound on the baseline and the reft. It seems like like that's just that to me, is overcoming adversity. It's no different than you guys in your life. Over the course of the next month, you're gonna have two or three hand grenades lobbed into your life. Like that's just the reality.
Like you're gonna be they're gonna be crawling going through your day, and you're gonna get a phone call and it's gonna be something really shitty and you're gonna have to find a way to like deal with that as you go through the rest of your day. And like this idea that it's gonna be this perfectly fair static
environment is so silly to me. I saw that Lakers stat going around the other yesterday where it was like, the Lakers have by far the biggest free throw differential in the league this year, and it's like basic research. They're the only team in the league that is great at not fouling and drawing fouls. The second best free throw differential team in the league was the Miami Heat, who is seventeenth in getting to the foul line. It's
just it just so happens that that they're one. They're that the one team that they're the one team that does both well, and people will be like, oh, but the Lakers are terrible. Why would they suddenly be good at that? It means nothing to be good at drawing fouls and to be good at def ending without fouling. You can do those things and also suck, you know how. I know that was the Lakers all year. They were a terrible defensive team, in large part because Anthony Davis
was out. They were a terrible defensive team who also didn't foul. That's possible, right, Like, it's just there's there's so many moving parts in basketball games, and it's just again, I go back to that loser mentality thing, like no one cares about your specific struggles because they've got their own struggles, Like and no one cares that you don't have DeAndre Ayton for a big game because they're big. Guy's been out for a long time. Like everyone's dealing
with diversity in this season. And for you to like just paint yourself as the victim that the refs are coming after you, that's not the type of mentality that's gonna push you over the top in a two two series against the you know, against the Clippers in the first round. If you feel like Game four was stolen from you by the refs, ask the Clippers what they'll they'll think. They'll be like Game fives on Wednesday, and we're gonna try to win, like like, no one cares.
And so it's a loser mentality. That's why I think it's important to separate that from the issue with officiating. But we've already gone too long today, So we're gonna we're gonna call it today, all right, guys. That is all we have for today. The plan as of right now, we are going I'm gonna be recording a video late tonight after all of the games that will be out bright and early on Saturday morning, and then we'll have another show on Sunday morning covering Saturday nights games, and
then we're going late on Monday night. I can't remember what specific matchup that is, but we're breaking down a game late on Monday night. So plenty of shows over the course of the rest of this weekend and going through Monday. As always, I sincerely appreciate your guys supports. Chat out to Carson for giving us the time, and we will see you tomorrow morning. The volume