Hoops Tonight - NBA Contenders: Will Warriors stay hot? LeBron & Lakers obstacle, who stops Celtics

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of you guys are having a great week. I figured now, right before we head into our Thanksgiving break is the best time for us to touch base on contenders. And I've done a lot of power rankings. I've done a lot of game breakdowns. I've done a lot of film breakdowns. I've done a lot of arguing of various sorts. But

I have yet to reapproach my contend rankings. And so what I'd like to do is do what I've done every time we've done tender rankings over the last couple of years, which is have my good friend Sam Vessini from The Athletic on the show to break it all down. First of all, Sam, how are you doing, man? How is life down in Melbourne? No Thanksgiving right here?

some of my wife's parents' friends and everything. And yeah, we have a Thanksgiving meal every year, just on the weekend, not on Thursday. My Thursday will be a normal Thursday for me.

But I want to start on a very basic concept, which is when we did our contender rankings to start the year, I had four teams in that tier, which was Boston. I had Denver two, and then I had OKAC three, and I had New York four. You had Boston and Oklahoma City on their own tier. I've watched quite a bit of Oklahoma City this year, especially in the last week, and I'm actually starting to view Boston

as on a tier by themselves. And my case for that is not that Oklahoma City doesn't have the potential to improve, because they've underachieved a little bit offensively to this point in the season, and I know that they'll get better in time. And I'm liking their early returns on Isaiah Hartenstein, both as like a connective passer and also as a screener and all that kind of stuff.

The thing specific that has me a little hesitant with Oklahoma City, and I want you to either talk me off the led to or agree, is their decision making in the half court kind of reminds me of Boston

a few years ago. Where their talent is almost the enemy of their success sometimes and their pursuit of the best shot or a great shot is not quite where it needs to be relative to where Boston is, where you can tell they have their stretches of bad shot selection, but they're better at settling down and maintaining focus for longer. So what have been your concerns with Oklahoma City's offense and do you still consider them to be on the same tier as Boston.

you brought up, and I think they're all valid. Actually, I do Oklahoma City's defense to start the year. Like when we talked about Oklahoma City, I think I said that they were almost guaranteed to be like a top three defense, like almost no matter what they did, that's probably where they're going to be. Do you know what they were defensively before chet Holmgren got hurt and they had to start experimenting with these like Jalen Williams at

the center lineups. They were They were not just number one, they were number one by like eight points per one hundred possessions over number two. They had a ninety seven point five defensive rating in the game before chet Holmgren

got hurt. So we all expected, Hey, team that was a top five defense last year goes out, gets Alex Caruso and Isaiah Hartenstein, two of what I would argue are probably in the top fifteen to twenty defenders across the entire NBA, and adding them into your lineup, along with improvement from Cason Wallace, who is another really really good defender. You know, it was very hard to envision this team not being a super high level defense, But I think I somehow underestimated how good they might be

on defense. So that's where I would start and why I think that they are in that top tier with Boston because they still have all the line of flexibility that we talked about in the preseason. The ability to match high or match big with Christopson Al Horford, or matchup against Yokich, or the ability to go small, which they've now gotten to showcase with like even hyper super small lineups with Jalen Williams at the five let alone, just like the flexibility they having Chet at the five

brings you in terms of five out spacing. So I'm excited about that. The offensive decision making, the overall offensive flow, especially late in games, I do agree with you generally that it can get a little bit stagnant. I think that in general, Shay gilg Just Alexander and Jalen Williams are great players, great drivers of the ball. They're not

selfish players by any stretch of the imagination. I just don't know that they consistently make the super super high level reads all the time for two guys that are going to have the ball in their hands late in games. You know, It's not like Anthony Edwards level, which has been you know somehow. I don't know if he's regressed. We'll probably talk about the Wolves a little bit later, but he feels like he is certainly not taking a

step forward in regard to late game decision making. They're not that level in terms of frustrating, but I do think that they need to take that next step forward in terms of being able to consistently just make the high level reads over the last five minutes of the game when defense is really tightened up.

the Tatum Jalen Brown piece. But I in a weird way, like I think lou Dort kind of has a lot of size in his own way, Like I don't think it's a coincidence that lou Dort made Luca feel a hell of a lot more uncomfortable than Jaden McDaniels did, for instance, last year.

doesn't really have a rim protector. This is that other element of that you know, kind of elite defensive profile that we've seen over the years that said, like Chet is a rim protector that also has ground coverage, and that is the thing that makes him so terrifying, and what makes that entire unit so terrifying is like they can engage in high level defensive you know process that we've seen around the league in terms of keeping Chet at the rim, which we've already seen, Like we've seen

stuff like him communicating with guards off ball to make sure he's always the low man instead of getting pulled up.

through that bad process. And so I think, like I remember, coming into the season, I talked about how my main concerns were, like, Jalen Williams and Chad Holmgren are basically your number two, and they're very young and very inexperienced, and they're going to be asked to carry significant stretches of basketball in big moments. And so that is the

part to me that I get. I just get a little bit concerned about, is just are they grown up enough to be in a big playoff game against a really good team late and to make the right decisions they need to make. Because as we look back on Dallas, Sam, Dallas is good. I think they're firmly in that second tier of championship contending teams. But I didn't think they

were in the top tier last year. I thought they were a team that caught some favorable matchups and got out of the West, which means, okay, see basically got upset in that second round series by Dallas, and so I would argue they're further away than that series would lead you to believe. And so I'm just I'm just a little bit skeptical of that decision making process. What have you seen from Jalen Williams that makes you feel like he might be ready for that sort of thing this year?

recognizing yet. But by the way, he's shooting fifty seven forty ninety four over that run in his last ten games. So again, like Jalen Williams is one of those guys where I think you and I have been talking about him for like three years. As if there's a guy I'm betting on in the league right now that you know people, you can't give me enough stock of his Basically, there's not enough. There's not enough out there that I won't just buy it all and be happy with the results.

At a certain point. To me, he's going to be an All NBA player, and this year he is starting to take steps toward being that. At the very least so far, I think he has been one of the ten best players in the Western Conference to this point, so you see where he is going. And I still think that there are moments kind of like we discussed where late in games they do give him the ball quite a bit, and he does need to just continue to improve small decision making issues in terms of overdriving

to the basket. For some reason, and I can't quite figure out what this is, he is like the most like physical dude. He drives and slashes constantly. He is physical at the point of attack, defensive, he just does not draw fowls for whatever reason. Even in this great run where he's been unbelievable, he's still only getting three

foul shots per game. I don't know if it's a I can't put my finger on if it's if it's a footwork thing where he's kind of leaning away, if it's a thing where he just doesn't have their respective officials yet. I think that might be part of it. Honestly, I can't tell why he doesn't get calls around the basket, but he does drive into the basket pretty regularly in a way that you would expect him to eventually draw fouls.

That's really the next step for him, if he starts drawing fouls in the way that somebody like Jimmy Butler does, and he has the ability to do that because of his physical frame, like he can take contact, absorb it, and finish through contact. I don't I don't know. Man like that guy looks like he could be a top ten player in the league at some point. And if you have him an Shay, maybe.

like they were insane. That was Christop's first game, and like you could just see the impact he had immediately, Like they start, they didn't know what to do, Like they started with zoobots on him, and then they started running, like even with bench units they at Houser and Pritchard come in, Like they'll run Prichard and Hauser as ball screeners. They'll run them as the backman in stack pick and rolls. They'll do like early exit stacks. They'll do just like

late release stacks where a screener gets there. They will like run all sorts of different options in terms of trying to find you know, creative avenues in transition. If you are off even by the slightest smallest angle in transition defense, if you are overloaded to one side by one person, they will kill you because they will spread out to the three point line and they will make shots atay forty five to fifty percent clip probably in transition.

So and then on top of it, you saw the Clippers trying to adjust, they would go, Okay, we're gonna put zoobots on Drew. Holiday that didn't work because then you've got a smaller guy in KP, and KP can put as.

Oklahoma City. Look, Boston's the best team in the league. Like that's the reality of this, and their their highest level is better than anybody else's highest level. It's just whether or not they get to the playoffs clean.

things that make it difficult to interpret. For instance, the Cleveland Cavaliers have seven teen wins, but only four of them have been against teams that are currently five hundred are better, which makes them difficult to interpret. And then the Golden State Warriors are a twelve and five in the Western Conference. Do you give either of those teams a real chance to win four playoff rounds based on what you've seen from them here in the early going?

And I don't even know that they necessarily have unbelievable ways to match up with you, Like they don't have an enormous front line, right like Tray Shackson Davis is an undersized center. Kaman Looney probably isn't like totally undersized, but kun Looney just like might not be good enough anymore to like anchor a defense. So they're almost always gonna have to go small right in order to get

the most out of their lineups. And if you go small against, for instance, the Denver Nuggets, if you go small against this iteration of the Oklahoma City Thunder, I think you're gonna have problems now if because they can go big against you, and they can go Hartenstein and chat once we see chet back, and that's a whole other thing, like what is Check gonna be once he gets back. From what I understand about the hip injury, it's one of these is that it's a from what

I understand, it's just like a pain thing. It's not something that will like inflict upon his mobility, uh moving forward, or like even once he heals from it. It's just literally like when the pain stops kind of thing, and once the injury itself, the fracture heals, right.

He suffered a serious injury where he fractured that bone in his hip or whatever, uh in this game against the Golden State Warriors who were talking about and Andrew Wiggins. So don't mistake that though with a lack of toughness. Like chet Holmgren will get out there and play. He will play through the pain like if Oklahoma City allows him. It's just whether or not he's going to be able to or not. Don't don't take that, you know, one way or another in terms of his lack of pain tolerance.

On the Warriors, I just don't know that they have enough talent. It's kind of where I'm at with them. Like they have a lot of depth, They have a lot of interesting depth. That cool thing about them is that if a star comes available for whatever reason this season, they are very well positioned to be able to go get that star. If they want to extend out the Stephan Curry window. They have Jonathan kaminga who they decided not to extend, which makes him a potential trade target.

They have all of their picks moving forward, which gives them a number of potential avenues to create deals. Even somebody I think like Cam Johnson would really help them immensely just in terms of offensive flow, structure, consistent spacing. When Buddy Healed isn't on the court. Buddy Healed started the season incredibly well. Over the class six yes, six or seven games he's cooled way off and he's really hard to have out there defensively. So there are matchups

where he's gonna have it. There are gonna be nights where he has it. But what do you do when he doesn't have it? Is a big question for Golden State on offense. For me right now, I mean, where do you fall on them? Let's let's start with us the way we go to the calves here.

when their team starts to rack up wins. But like there is a there is a certain type of game that Golden State can play that shows and spits teams out in terms of the way that they pressure the ball, in terms of the way that they fly around and rotate. They have these some of the sharpest closeouts I see in the league come out of Golden State and their ability to defend the three point line while also offering

help there. It's it's a it's a principle that I believe in very strongly now, which is that the best foundational like trait that any roster can have is to have a bunch of big athletes on the perimeter that compete and I think like specifically on the perimeter, that can cover ground and that play hard. You need a good variety two of like different sizes and types, but you need that type of type of trade.

of the year. Right. I know that they've lost like three in a row and like they haven't played super super well over the course of the last week, but like, that's a team that is feisty and in large part their biggest additions this summer, we're Dyson Daniels, Zachary Rissa Chet, guys that are feisty, that are long, they can cover ground defensively. Like, those guys really really help, I think in terms of what Atlanta is looking to do with,

you know, surrounding Trey Young with talent. Right, you know, Trey Young is probably not one of those foundational superstars, but he is somebody that is an incredible offensive talent, and having those guys around him allows him just to go and be like, hey, create the offense every night, Please don't be a total sieve on defense, and you know, we trust that we'll be able to rack you know, maybe not a five hundred team, but we might get

to thirty five to forty wins. Maybe the antithesis of this is another team that I'm sure we'll talk about today, The Bucks. Right the Bucks have really struggled with that, and that's a big reason why on some level they are playing below their talent level, even though Yannis over the last I would argue two and a half three weeks, this might be the best I've ever seen Yannis play on offense. Just point blank, he has been.

before the trade line. Frankly, hopefully.

Shout out to Brooke and Giannis, by the way, those two guys have had a flashback defensive stretch here over the last couple of weeks, nothing like a nothing like a disastrous and two and eight start to kind of like to kick you in the butt a little bit and get you moving. But like, yeah, I that has become my biggest You and I have talked about this at various points over the course of the last few years, and it's manifested in different like kind of like buzzwords,

but I remember for you it was ground coverage. That was the thing that you said to me in our postseason kind of conversation last year. And for me, I've been referring to it as perimeter athleticism, but it basically

means the exact same thing. But I've viewed that as like the baseline and then the second piece of it, and I think some of the success that Dallas has had without Luca in the last couple of weeks has been a great example of this is creating space by allowing your big men to operate as screening and passing folcrums from the perimeter rather than occupying space around the rim. And this has been a Golden State staple for over a decade now. But this is something we've seen all

around the league. The Dallas when they are trying to run offense with Luke off the floor, it's a lot of Lively at the top of the key with guards screening for each other and cutting off of them. They ran like a blender possession against the Nuggets when they beat them the other night, where they had Kyrie come running off of a Derek Lively dribble hand off at the top, but it was a fake. He didn't get it. Then Quintin Grimes came flying off the dribble hand off.

He did get it. As he got it, Lively rolled, but then as he rolled he kind of dragged Jamal Murray into the payton. Nasey Marshall relocated to the top, got a little close that opportunity to be Jamal murraybou Jamal Murray, by the way, some of the worst defense I've seen ever from a player in the last couple of games from him. It's his little comment that he threw out that this was part of my video that

I recorded today that just disappeared into the ether. But Jamal Murray had a Jamal Murray had a yeah for the hoops to night listeners, I did work today. You're just not gonna see the video because it doesn't exist anymore. That we had a little mac crisis today. But anyway, Jamal Murray like went out and started talking about his teammates partying partying in Los Angeles and then was the

reason why they like got eviscerated by the Knicks. But anyway, my basketball worldview has come around to this idea that like, if you are not creating space around the rim by using your bigs further away from the rim as screening and passing folkrums, if you are not getting the ball side to side, if you do not have multiple ball handling threats on the floor, there's a ceiling to your offense,

especially when you get to the light playoff rounds. It's something that I feel very very passionately about, and like ironically it kind of the gap to Cleveland because in the same way that Golden State, to me is proof of concept of two ideas, which is that offensive organization piece I was just talking about, in that perimeter athleticism piece, the Caves to me are kind of another example of Kenny Atkinson bringing a lot of the same ideologies to

Cleveland in terms of how to play offense, how to defend as well with the switching and containing. But like staying on Golden State for a second, to put it very simply, like there right now, there's way too much like Andrew Wiggins needs to be our savior for this thing to work out, and like he's been playing really well. Like I pulled this out on my mythological show that

existed earlier today. I said that Andrew Wiggins had played four games in a row and scored twenty plus points for the first time since May of twenty twenty one in this recent stretch, and he only had eighteen in

the lost to Brooklyn last night. But like the previous four games, he's like he's been playing really, really well, and like I've been saying, like the Warriors need like specifically a front court type of player who can pretty reliably get them to twenty points a game efficiently and can create his own shot without having to rely on Steph And like, one of the things that's things that's happening is and this is where it went off the rails for them in the Brooklyn game last night, is

their bench units really struggle to score unless Buddy Heield's just making everything. And Buddy Hild, even when he was hot, was making a lot of pretty tough, tightly contested shots. And so my thing is, like there's a lot of guys who can get hot, Like Lindy Waters can get hot and make shots. He's a little bit of a movement shooter, right Like Jonathan Kamenka can go for twenty five thirty on any given night. Like Buddyhield obviously can get hot and make shots. Brandy Pozimski can get hot

and he can make shots. What they don't have is a guy who's like kind of a more consistent night to night shot creator. And what scares me for them in the big picture is like I look around the league and I'm like, Okay, Jimmy Butler makes some sense, but I don't know if he's even got the juice in the tank. Left brandon Ingram I think might be a little bit too methodical and a little bit too much of a ball stopper to make work Zach Lavine,

the salary and the concerns about his health. Is there even a player that you see as a realistic trade target that could move Golden State into that tier for you?

a team that constantly tries to contend. The only reason that he would be potentially available is if they just decide, you know what, he's a free agent. He's not resigning this, that, and the other thing, right, and they're out of it

by February. That feels unlikely to me. It's not impossible by any stretch, but like, I think they're gonna be competitive enough to where they're gonna feel like they can make a playoff run with Eric Bolstro with Jimmy Butler and give this team like one final Roadie and you know, chance at it with Jimmy and Bamcore. I don't know that it would be that expensive necessarily to go get Jimmy Butler for five months? Four months?

I would have to think about that, like in terms of is that true or not, I'll have to I would guess that it is off the top of my head, but I'm sure that that's right now. Having like I'm trying to think like, could you do could you like Melton's deal, plus like a few other kind of things. But I'd have to really kind of dive into it, and you'd probably have to involve a third team as well.

a February decision. I think if you get to February and Wiggins is more or less the same player he's been for the last couple of years, and Jimmy Butler looks like he's got some juice but the Heat are floundering in the play in again in a terrible Eastern Conference, then you call him up and you see if you can't work something out and you try to make a run at it. But like, if Wiggins goes for twenty plus and two thirds of his games for the next two months, then I think you have to kind of

approach it in a different way. But yeah, with Golden State, for me, like I think they're here. Here's where I'm at. With Golden State. I think that they are certain to finish above the play in as long as step stays healthy because of that floor that we talked so much about in terms of their perimeter, athleticism and scheme.

And so that's where I get concerned with Cleveland. I left that Celtics game way more like convinced that Boston was on another tier than so many others, Like there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out where it's like, oh, well, Darius Garland played a bad game and we were down all of our wings, and like, I want to be clear, I don't think Cleveland's fraudulent or anything like that. I think they're very clearly in that second tier of teams somewhere in there.

the right shots, lock in on defense. Boston's defense has been spotty at times this season from a commitment standpoint, but then it's been like stifled, Like they had a third quarter stretch against Minnesota the other night that was terrifying, like like like where they completely put those dudes in jail. And like I think I I a lot of the stuff that I was concerned about, like, oh, they still have entry points, like Darius Garland is an easy pathway

to get the calves in rotation. And yet you know what, they got a massive frontline, but as soon as those dudes start running around to shooters, it's not so massive on the front line anymore.

teams in the league. But when it comes down to just the strict chess match of the half court battle against a team like Boston, I just don't think that they can get there. Is there are you higher on Cleveland than I am?

somebody that can guard. He can guard one on one, he can close out onto shooters like he's not I'm not gonna sit here and tell you he's like some all defense guy or even like some incredible defender by any stretch but I think he's solid on that end in a way that to me, when I watched that game against Boston, it wasn't that they just had Garland

on the court. It was that they had Garland and Niang or Garland and Merrill or Garland, and like Ty Jerome has actually been like pretty feisty this year defensively, but he's not super fast, right, He gets by with like really good hand eye coordination. He's being able to that way, and he's six foot five, right. So it

was the fact that they had multiple entry points. If you give Struce to them, and you know, also a coor of cos vert boys guys being wide, I think it at least could potentially limit how badly they get hit when they're in rotation and when they have to fly around and try and scramble and recover. But that's just like theory for me right now, Like we haven't seen Max Struce, and I think he's the one that does it better than anybody because he allows you to

play the math game with Cleveland. He allows you to smaller if you want to, with Evan Mobley at the five, which I think is the key for them being able to match up. They did that in this game. But the problem was, and I love George Nyang as a player. I think he's been really useful this year as a shooter, as a you know, just general smart basketball player that you can have on the court. He's just not fast enough for that situation. I actually thought they made a mistake not having Jared Allen.

We're talking about all of this in theory. We're talking about all this like in practicality, you need Boston to have four games where they don't shoot well coinciding with four games where you do shoot well, and we can talk about the way that they get to these shots. We can talk about the way that you know, these things bear themselves out on the court from a matchup perspective.

From you know, Boston's entire offense is predicated upon finding mismatches. Right, They're gonna bring Peyton Pritchard up to screen and get Darius Garland on Jason Tatum. Right, They're gonna bring you know, George n Yang up to screen and get him onto Jalen Brown. That's the whole thing that they're trying to do. And then they're gonna collapse and then they're gonna shoot it out and spray it out and try and shoot threes, or they're gonna dump it to Drew Holliday and the

dunker spot. Whatever they're gonna do. They have different ways to get there, but that's ultimately their goal. Offensively, you need to have days where you shoot well and they shoot poorly. Sometimes the shots just don't go in right. Like that that can happen where that is a thing that happens. There is a luck factor to shooting on some level. I think that it is maybe not as big as the analytics people will say from time to time, but there's undeniably thing of a luck factor where the

shot goes in or it doesn't go in right. You need four days where that happens and four days where on your end you're shooting it well against a group of perimative defenders with Drew Holliday, Derek White, Jalen Brown who's a really good on ball defender, Jason Tatum, who's a really good off ball defender, Al Horford who can switch out there because Sosporzingis who's an unbelievable rim protector. You need to do that against that team. That's what

makes them such a difficult problem to solve. They beat you on the math game, they beat you on the matchups game. At the end of the day, Like, that's just an incredibly hard problem for anybody, let alone Cleveland. Cleveland would be clearly number two for me in the East. Like I don't think that I like them more than I like the Knicks by like a pretty real margin

right now. But it's just a it's you know, if we're trying to compare them in terms of championship tiers and contenders, it's I have worries about just anybody being beating Boston at this point.

of terrifying. They've basically been operating around a one thirty offensive rate for the blast like for the last couple of weeks, and I thought that the game in Denver was such a classic example of what makes them so tough to guard, which is the unique combination of like a superstar that consistently draws two to the ball, and then a bunch of dudes are who are professional off ball scores, like the like Michale Bridges has been scoring off the ball since he was catching skip passes and

pick and roll from Chris Paul, you know, four or five years ago, right like og Nanobi has turned into one of the most gifted Like It's kind of looks a little clunky sometimes, but he's such a gifted like he's such a gifted like shot creator when a dude's chasing him off the three point line. They have so many smart players in that in that four on three that inevitably comes from every single time Jalen Brunson brings the ball out the floor, that they're just impossible to guard.

The thing that's bothering me is like they literally have not played more than one or two good games of defense this entire season. Even in their wins, they're not guarding, Like they had a win streak where they won, you know, four out of five, and like they were like out of like a one to nineteen defensive rating in those four wins against like Washington and like Brooklyn and like

just some really limited teams. And I have been trying to investigate this Knicks defense problem for a while, and I'm so curious to hear your opinion on it because we haven't talked about it yet. But my initial impression is it's a combination of some effort, focus, energy stuff, like specifically some of their perimeter defenders are not having

good perimeter defensive seasons. And then two, there's a little bit of like a schematic thing with TIBs that's driving me crazy, which is like they like still are not doing a ton of switching even when it's Og and McHale and Josh in the action, They're still doing a lot of overhelping and lingering that's completely unnecessary. There's some

of it that's unavoidable. Like teams are hunting Brunson and Kat a lot, Like I want to be clear, that's how teams are looking to attack the Knicks, but its stands so much further to that because like my thing is like the effort and energy piece I think will improve in the long run, and that to me is the gap between Cleveland. Like Cleveland's practicing being a championship team. Say what you want about whether or not they actually are. They're practicing being a championship team that is a dead

serious basketball team in their daily process. Nicks not so much. That's definitely something that they can clean up there. There's no doubt that like the that Cat and Jalen Brunson are gonna get attacked a great amount over the course of the rest of the season, but there's some self inflicted damage there. And their three point defense metrics are really bad. They're giving up a ton of volume on threes, they're giving up high percentage. They're giving up a lot

of spot up opportunities. In general, they are not guarding the three point line well. And like for all to talk about cat as are improtector. Their paint defense has been pretty solid. So like, what is your takeaway on what's going wrong with the Knicks defense?

solved with Mitch coming back. A big issue for me personally is that Carl Towns is a bad drop coverage defender, and early in the season they basically played only drop coverage. Over the last like two weeks, I felt like I've seen them experiment a little bit more with like having him come out to the level a little bit higher. They will occasionally, not regularly, but like at times like

I've seen them switch. You know, it could have just been like a peel switch situation, but like it felt like kind of an early peel switch to me, Like I will hear out that they are adjusting and experimenting, and that Tibbs is trying to find different answers. It hasn't gone well, Like, let's be clear about that too, it hasn't gone super great to this point, but I do think that they have at least tried to solve the problem. A Towns is a really really bad drop

covers defender. I think that he doesn't really understand his angles, he doesn't really understand his depth. He often gets caught in no man's land where the roller will get behind him and he's not really actually contesting the guard, and the guard is able to just get to a pull up a little bit too easily or have that lob over the top of them. The second piece of it for me is you mentioned the perimeter defense. I actually think mckail bridge has been quite poor to this point defensively.

In general, I think he has not been very good this season offensively. The shot is obviously a whole other conversation, but.

get up over the top. He's a guy that has super long limbs, super long arms, but also a really high waist, so when he tries to get around screens, he has to like really open up his hips and then like open around and like get back around the screen. And I think he's getting clipped on those a little bit more often than what we've seen in the past from him, and that's an issue for them right now. If he's not an elite level perimeter defender, if he is on it. If I'm being completely honest, I think

he's been a blow average perimeter defender this season. I will hear out you know that he's been average or whatever, but I haven't really seen that personally.

it's a real problem. So the way that you phrased this. Whenever we decided, hey, what are we going to do? Are you higher or lower on these teams than you were in the preseason in terms of them contending for a title? My answer for the Knicks right now is actually lower, and in part it's because of Bridges, and I would really like to see him fix it, but

he's not playing well on either end right now. And like that deal, when that deal got done, I was literally live like doing a mock draft show with Price, my podcast partner and A we were just like stunned and befuddled when that deal happened. And then we got the price, and I was like, man, I like McHale, and I knew that the price was going to be big, and I still thought that was too much to pay for him.

in in Minnesota. It makes life a little bit easier, I think for everybody, and that could really go a long way towards solving their defense, and that could make me in the end a little bit higher on them. But given that Mitchell's injury situation seems a little bit questionable in terms of when he'll be back, what he will look like when he gets back, I am a little bit lower on them than I was in the preseason. I am.

the level of screens and contesting pull up shooters. He just has such a natural gift for at the timing and he's got such quick.

just sag him into the paint anyway. And I think that Mitch can bring back some of their offensive rebounding identity in a lot of ways too. He's just always been super super good at that. So, like with the Knicks, I think Cleveland is a clear number two right now, but I give them I wouldn't be surprised if I felt differently in two three months, if they just kind of figured some of that additional stuff out before we

get out of here. I want to spend about ten to fifteen minutes on the middle tier in the Western Conference. So this is a total shit show. Sacramento's lost four in a row. They're now the twelve seed, but like you just know that they're going to have a stretch where they win eight out of nine games, and they've been devastated by injuries, and it's been deer and Fox just playing one on five every game. Even Portland scrappy

and difficult. Like, as much as we talk trash about the Pelicans, they will get healthier at some point in the season and rip off some wins at some point. San Antonio is like it's the classic home road team, Like if there they are just a huge pain in the butt to beat in San Antonio, and that's just

something that's going to keep them afloating the standings all season. Dallas, it's been the Lucas stuff and a lot of like kind of early burying of Klay Thompson, even though it has so much more to do with the fact that his ceiling kind of depends on Luca creating advantages for him, and so I'm not super concerned about playing the big picture. But like every team as it is shoes Denver's like atrociously bad. When Yokich is off the floor, the Suns

can't do anything without Kevin Durant. The Clippers are actually like my one of my big success stories from the season. I was like, the Clippers are going to be a pain in the ass. I swear it's all these athletes. They're big in athletic called the Perimeter Memphis, same sort of thing with the home road splits. But like that, that tier in the West that is beyond Oklahoma City and Golden State is like ten teams deep, and I have no idea what to make of it. Where do

you like, where are you feeling with that group? Do you have them all still in one tier? Are there a couple of teams that are separating themselves for you? How do you feel about that tier in the West right now?

come playoff time. They have Austin Reeves, who's been like hot and cold, it feels like, to start the season. They have Dalton connect To who looks like a real hit. He's a guy that kind of elevates their starting lineup.

Like it's funny. They've moved him to the bench to bring Ruby back into the starting lineup, and I think that's a mistake because when I watch when I watch Dalton, I think he's a guy that elevates your best players, but probably isn't a guy yet that can go get his own or you know, be at his best with bench players. In the NBA, So if I was the Lakers, I would have Dalton in the starting lineup in order to maximize both his potential and the players around him. Offensively.

I get the defensive concerns, but the thing about the Lakers is that when you look at all the other teams in the West, Denver included certainly, and this is removing Oklahoma City in my opinion, you look at, oh, you know, like Sacramento, who I think just probably doesn't have enough juice in terms of star power, and Minnesota, who you know, obviously sold a lot of their assets to go get Rudy Gobert, but you know, has some new assets that they could potentially move if they wanted to.

You can look at the Clippers, who probably doesn't probably don't have enough juice. Unles Kauai is just like a superstar. Houston's interesting. Houston certainly has more trade capital than anybody in the league if they want to use it. But I think the Lakers have the most realistic stick avenues toward improving their roster that doesn't involve, like, for instance, Houston having to upend everything it does with a star trade. Right,

the Lakers can solve their issues. They have three first round picks available to go out and get like a Bruce Brown. They have a bunch of tradable contracts Ruey, Gabe, Vincent, Jared Vanderbilt, like whoever you want to bring up across the board. They have all these deals that they can move for players right within their price range. Like if they can go get Bruce Brown. To me, that's the name that I've been thinking about. That just makes an immense amount of sense. We knew that they liked him.

They tried to sign him before he signed that big balloon contract with the Indiana Pacers and then got traded to the Toronto Raptors in the Sea Yakham deal. If I remember correctly right, he is the kind of player that'd be perfect for them, like a perimeter defender who processes the game at a super high level, can guard one through four, perfect like crash bang player that would take some wearing's hair off of you know, some of their perimeter players and some of their wings, Like they

can go do that. Like Toronto is not contending this year, they would be able to go get give up a first round pick for Bruce Brown and it would be fine. And on top of it, the sneaky thing with Bruce Brown is that because his contract is so big right now, he's not going to get that much on his next contract exactly. You have the early bird rights to be able to retain him as well. I think he's actually like a really sneaky valuable player on this trade market.

That because he hasn't played much this season, if at all, if I can remember correctly, I haven't seen him play this year. At least, he's someone that he will be a very valuable trade target as long as he's healthy at some point in December January. Dorian Finney Smith is the name that makes a lot of like sense for the Lakers. I've said, like a Dorian Finney Smith, they are on sharp deal for the Lakers solves like almost all of their problems to me right now, backup center

issue solves. You know, going to get a wing who can be switchable defensively. Phinney Smith has taken like a small step back defensively, but not an enormous one. But the guys that are on the market, they have the ability to go make moves to solve their issues. Is why I like them a lot, and they're already really good. Is the thing, like the Lakers are already what eleven

and seven something like that, six, ten and six. Yeah, so they're in a really good position as it is, like Denver doesn't have the ability really to go out and improve. They've moved all their picks. They would have to give up like a Peyton Watson or a Christian Brown or a Julian Strather to go make a realistic upgrade, and that's not something they should really be in the market of doing in my opinion. You can look at

I don't know Minnesota. Minnesota could go make a realistic upgrade, but more than anything, their season is going to come down to whether or not Anthony Edwards can make decisions and consistently make plays at the end, and I don't

know if I trust that yet. They could also just like move off of the Julius Randall experiment and decide to do something totally different with that position, but that up ends their season in some way, and that would take some time to try and work through and figure out. So when I say that I really like the Lakers, I like the potential of what the Lakers can be

after February, once they eventually inevitably make their move. I think that might be the team that I it's Denver because they have the best player in the world, they have Nicola Jokic. But outside of them in the West, like, I think the Lakers are the team even honestly, I like them more than Golden State in a playoff situation. I know that might be like sacrilege to hear right now, but I would buy them more in a playoff situation. They have the star power and they have the wherewithal

to be able to go get go, do moves. Golden State does as well. Though, by the way, like that's the other thing that we, you know, have mentioned a little bit. Golden State to me is a you knowd' anthony Melton and Gary Payton in two first round pays for Cam Johnson move from being ahead of you know, all these teams potentially maybe not Denver because Denver is

still really good. But yeah, like that that middle tier, like those three teams beyond Oklahoma City, Golden se Denver Lakers, Denver Lakers, those feel like the three teams to me that not only have the star power but also have the potential to get better and separate themselves from the rest of this group.

think he's like the two way guard. I'll even say I think Stefan Castle's are more interesting prospect than Denvin to sell in my opinion at this point.

take that contract. So I completely agree with you, Like there are worlds where you could maybe try and figure out how to make something like this function, But I think they're going to really struggle to improve their roster, even though I love what they have been so far with Kevin Durant.

regular season wins drug or not this season. We've seen that year in year out over the last the last few years. Right Clippers obviously like it's it's a James Harden and Norman Palall team. It's hard to take them really seriously. I want to zero in on the Lake for a second because I have a very complicated opinion on them. But before I do that, I would say

that I think Golden State. I have Golden State above the First of all, if Golden State played the Lakers in a series tomorrow, I think Golden State would kick their ass. I as much as I as much as I like the firepower stuff with the Lakers, the mismatch on the perimeter is so dramatic between those two teams, I think it would be a disaster.

He's going to be better, in my opinion. Maybe I'm just being glass half full a little too much. You have a little smirk on your face, so maybe you feel otherwise.

the court. Like that's literally what what Jamal Murray looks like in some of these health defense possessions, like like where I'm just like, dude, this is an NBA game, Like you can't be this like like hob hobbling around, you know what I mean. But like, I think Denver is a team that I put above them, and then the other team I'd put above the Lakers still at

this point is Dallas. In Dallas I'm a little bit lower on because I do think the trade off for Derek Jones Junior did make them less athletic, But even within that context, they do have more athletes than a team like the Lakers does, so like and I do think Luca will play better in the long run. So like for me, I have the Lakers kind of sitting

as like the fifth best team in the West. Now you look like you had a thought on Dallas, because I'm about to go off on the Lakers, So why don't you give me your thoughts on Dallas real quick?

is Memphis. Like Memphis is so weird and bizarre, and we haven't seen them with like a full complement of players yet exactly. I mean, I don't know if you watched the Portland Memphis game last night and two nights ago for when this goes live, Jamran had like twenty two and eleven in twenty three minutes and was just so far and away the best player on the court that it was remarkable. And I know it's in Memphis,

whatever I can't remember for some reason. I think it was in Portland, but like I'm bad at remembering if it's home or road or not.

let alone how you executed that. Like Jokich can do this stuff, there are wings that can do this stuff as well. Like I'm not sitting here saying they're like the best two passers in the NBA. Necessarily they're probably in the top five, but like when I watch those two, I'm just like, holy shit. And Jaw is also like

the most explosive athlete in the end. He is I say, Memphis just to say that, like, if Jaw is this good, and they get Desbane and they get Jaron Jackson playing a full compliment of games, they have all of these potential options that they can mix and match with against you in certain situation and matchups. They're interesting to me. They've been playing goofy ass like Santy al Dama, Jaren Jackson, Zach Edy lineups that are like three seven footers basically,

and it's just really hard to score on them. And they still have like perimeter play because of Sancy and Jaren. So they're a weird team. But I also bring them up to say that they have their full compliment of picks to be able to move if they want to.

been starting Jalen Wells. It's interesting to me because I actually liked the Smart Bane Jaw trio last year, but then like the with Jared Jackson and Edie and then also with Santi al Dama and Jared Jackson, is a smaller, like kind of more spacing. Look, I need to just see more of them. Their team that I their team that I just don't have a really strong opinion about at this point on.

stack double drag across the board. JJ's brought in the lebron and ad as a folkrum at the top of the key for off ball guard action stuff, which has been really really intriguing, and I've liked a lot of that stuff you mentioned using.

even though he has his defensive limitations. Just like him going after a contested rebound, or him running his lane in transition, or him high pointing some sort of loose ball just looks different than it does for the other Laker guards. Which is why I kind of lean more towards the trade you presented to me on the phone the other day, which is the Dorian Phinney Smith day. Were on sharp type of move because, like I originally was in the same spot where I was like Delo's

the weak link here. You gotta go get a Bruce Brown. You gotta go get a you know, Derrek Jones junior or something like that to anchor the two, and then Ruy's your three. I am in the opposite spot now where I think this needs to be an Austin Dalton Lebron ad team and a traditional three and D guy that you can put on the other team's best perimeter player makes the most sense. That's where a Dorian Finney Smith kind of falls into that spot for me. The tricky part is is I don't like a ton of

the other options around the league. I think he's the one guy that makes a lot of sense because like I look at it and I'm like, I kind of like Zire Williams too, But I just don't think he's a starter. I don't think he shoots the ball well enough. There's I like Josh Green as a guy that they could potentially go after, but then again, he plays the same position more or less as Dalton connect which kind

of presents some issues. So like they're a little bit more limited in terms of the types of players that can go there. Like does Jeremy Grant want to come in and guard the other team's best player every game? Probably not, right, So, like there are some limitations there, But I do think Dalton at the two is the direction they need to go in the long run. My pessimism surrounding the Lakers entirely centers around the Perimmeter athleticism piece, and I just don't know if it's something they can

fix within one season. They will defend better than they have to be clear, their defense is in shambles right now for a variety of different reasons, mostly centering around transition and the offensive glass. They're actually like a decent load up half court defense, Like they're okay in the decent half court load up situations. It's rebounding, and it

is transition that is entirely perimeterive athletes. That's entirely perimeterive athletes like Lebron and ad are two of the best defensive rebounders of their generation, and they can't rebound like it is a perimeter athlete issue. And so like I'm with you in the sense that like if you told me like we were gonna be watching Oka see Los Angeles Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, I wouldn't be stunned because I do think that that stealing is in there.

Anthony Davis is playing at a top five level this year. Lebron isn't even at the level I think he will be in the long run. Like there's a lot to be excited about there. It's just like I've had I've been Sam, I've been bitching about this perimeter athleticism thing with the Lakers for two years now, and Rob just hasn't done anything. So like we're where like it's hard

for me to eve. It's like Jared Vanderbilt really interesting player, but like I haven't watched him play in a basketball game in so long that it's like, is theoretical to this point, he just.

he's the better defender on the perimeter. Like he's the guy that you can trust to go deal with like one s, twos and threes, like even with Denver right, like part of like a big part of his role was that he could play the four on offense, but

could guard perimeter players on defense. And that's kind of what I think they need, Like they need somebody that will like deal with you know, the fours and can take on tough matchups or I can like just make high level passing reads and can do different things like that.

But on offense, they want Dalton and you know, Austin to be the one and the two kind of like you said, on defense, having Bruce allows you to kind of play him at the two, the you know one, the three, whoever you have to shut down in terms of the matchup. He's just kind of a better defender, I think at this point than what Dorian Phinney Smith is. But what Phinney Smith adds that he doesn't is he's

a fine defender at this point. Is he's longer, and he is also a real shooter, which Bruce unfortunately is not at this point. So I go back and forth on it. I think I lean a little bit more toward Bruce Brown now, but like it's a tricky it's a tricky conversation for sure, and they have to make the right decision because while I talk about their flexibility, they really have like one move that they can make without like totally selling the farm, you know what I mean.

If they don't make if they decide to like go all out and you know, go get somebody, they're giving up like three first rounders or whatever, and that doesn't feel like a great plan to me either. So I like what they can do. I like their flexibility. I think they are one player away. Realistically, you can slide D'Angelo Russell to the bench, You hopefully get Jared Vanderbilt back to be able to play defense in stretches for

fifteen minutes the game. Right they can solve the backup center issue, like you can find backup centers for second round picks on the trade market. Uh, they're gonna have to find They can find answers, though, I think is why I like them, Like they can go They're not a great team right now, they're not, but they can find the answers.

that I trust Rob to get it done. So in a weird way, like if you asked me to rank contenders like I still have, I had them coming into the season, I think eight, and like, yeah, they're probably still right around there, seven or eight, right, Like I'm if I look out east, I'm looking at Boston and Cleveland clearly as a level above maybe the Knicks too.

If I look out West, it's clearly okay. See Golden State Denver in Dallas, so like they're somewhere around seven or eight, but like here'd be them vaulting up.

So I don't that, man, you might have you might have found the two teams that I'm most evenly opinionated about that's crazy.

owe you a show. So you got to let me know if you have some stuff that you want to talk about. But as always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and for supporting the show. We will be back after Thanksgiving break. I was about to say tonight after Lakers Suns, but you guys are seeing this till Wednesday, so I will see you guys after Thanksgiving break for some power rankings on Monday.