Hoops Tonight - MVP Debate: Giannis, Jokic or Embiid? + NBA Finals contenders with Sam Vecenie

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you guys can get these shows. Maybe an extremely special guest today, a good friend of mine, mister Sam Vissini from the Athletic is going to be joining us to talk about the top tier of contenders in the league, the teams that we both think have real chances to win the title and then we're gonna do a little dive into the MVP discussion, the dreaded MVP discussion. You guys know the job. Before we get started, subscribe to the Volumes YouTube channels. You don't miss any more of

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Enter your email and code Hoops. That's h Oops for twenty dollars off. Download game Time Today, last minute tickets, lowest price guarantee. All right, let's talk some basketball. So I'm extremely excited to be bringing on Senior mba writer at The Athletic host of the Game Theory podcast, where I have been very blessed to appear as a guest a couple of times, someone who's one of my very favorite people in the world to talk basketball with, mister

Sam Vissini. Sam, how are you doing man? Well? Jason, that's so nice because I feel the exact same way about you, and I'm so excited to do this. Genuinely, there are very few things that I feel less excited to talk about than this MVP discourse. But doing it with you, I feel like will be less frustrating than the general discourse that we see online. So I'm excited to do it. Yeah, I undred percent agree. I'm excited

to dig into your process a little bit. I've got I've got a little bit of a system that I've been using. This will be the fourth year that I've used this system, and I'm really curious just to see

your general approach to it. And then you and I have had an interesting conversation in the past about the role of advanced metrics in these discussions too that I want to get into, but I did want to start just kind of it kind of feels like we are that the league in general is starting to kind of settle into what it's gonna look like here as we head into the postseason. You're playing teams are kind of looking like the playing teams, and your top six are

kind of looking like the top six. The only seed that I don't think is one hundred percent set is that sixth, sixth seed in the Western Conference, just because some of the uncertainty surrounding Golden State with their lack of wing depth. But what I wanted to do today is just kind of take a break and zoom out a little bit and talk a little bit about championship contenders. So I've used tears in the past where I include

teams that have like super long shot chances. But what I wanted to do is I wanted to get your opinion on a list of teams that you think have a real chance to win a title. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read you mine and if there's anybody on that list that you disagree with, I want you to tell me. And if there's anybody that's not on that list that you'd like to add, I'd

like you to make that case. So the teams that I think have a real chance to win a championship right now out east are just Milwaukee, Boston in Philly. Is there anybody in that list that you would add or remove? So are we talking like super long shots or are we talking and just like like the calves of the number one net rating in the NBA right now, like I am concerned. I don't think they are nearly on the level of the top three that you just said.

I do think that they cause real problems for Philadelphia in a potential playoffs series, because if we look at the teams that have beaten Philadelphia previously in playoffs series, is you look at the Atlanta Hawks specifically. It's the teams that can really kill you when you're playing drop coverage with Joel Embiid, and both Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell have the capability to do that. Now, do I think the Calves have a great match up against Boston

or Milwaukee. I do not, but they are number one in net rating. They have a better record than I think all but one team in the Western Conference. I at least will throw them in as a two or three percent chance. That's super interesting. So I know Calves fans feel this way. And there's really two things for me that are the earmining factor for me leaving them off that list. First of all, I do believe that

having two small guards in your backcourt. Even though I think both Mitchell and Garland have defended better than we could have anticipated this year, I do want to give them that amount of credit. But as we know, the personnel shortcomings kind of supersed how you participate schematically when you get onto that stage. So I worry a little bit about their entry points in the backcourt, and then teams are really starting to sell out on the Mitchell

Garland pick and roll, ignoring their off ball shooting. It's it's been just a Schmogese board of like, let's try Chetti Osman for a little while. Okay, well, Lamar Stevens is making some shots, Let's go with him for a

little while. And So when I really think about the way teams are going to ignore Evan Mobiley and whoever it is that gets that three spot off ball, and Karis Laverte obviously gives you a better offensive option there, but he's not the same level of defensive player as Isaac Akoro or Lamar Stevens, who they've been using as primary point of attack guys in a lot of cases. So, like, I just worry about them being the tech spook type of team that will struggle in the playoffs as teams

really exaggerate attacking their weaknesses. So is there anything that I said there that you would disagree with? No, I will say they have the number one defense in the NBA right now. I think their defense is less built toward being a great playoff team in many of the same ways that you just discussed. The guy that I can't figure out why they don't play as Dean Wade.

Dean Wade gives them that shooting and that length defensively that I think is actually what they need, but they are not playing him, and I don't know that we can consider that a real potential outcome here, and that's not anymore, I don't think. So he's not on their injury report. So like you look through like the injury report, it says Jared Allen, doesn't say no Evan Mobile or doesn't say Dean Wade right now, So who knows? But

I yeah, look, I agree with everything you're saying. It's just that they have the number one defense in the league. They have figured out a way to work around the guards. I do think their defense will be diminished in the playoffs because of those mismatch problems. I think Donovan has been very good defensively and is willingness to fight. But realistically, I think we're probably spending too much time on the

Cavs world Cavs fans. Sam believes in you guys, so that that probably means even more than anything I have to say. So take that so out West and I know this is going to ruffle some feathers in Sacramento, in Memphis. But I only have five teams, the Denver Nuggets, the Phoenix Suns, the Golden State Warriors, who I'm tempted to remove, and then the Los Angeles Lakers, and the Los Angeles Clippers. Is there any part of that list

that you would disagree with? I don't know that I would have anybody but the Suns and maybe the Nuggets and Lakers on that list. And I think the Clippers offense is unfortunately just been too stagnant. I think it's a little bit too easy to really muck them up just by playing tough man to man defense. If you have on ball defenders that can make life harder for Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. You're never going to stop them, but if you can make them five percent less efficient,

it's really really hard for their offense. The Warriors, I mean, it's just hard to know without Andrew Wiggins right now. I don't think they can win a title without Andrew Wiggins. Given what we've seen, I think I think we can say that definitively. You know, Yeah, this is not a profile of a team that has been successful in the playoffs previously, and without Andrew Wiggins, it's just going to be I think, way too difficult for them to find

the consistent offense and defense. That's what Wiggins brings. He brings them the two way play that they need on the wing that you know, Clay Thompson, as good as play is still even coming back from the multiple injuries, he's not always a two way player at this point in his career because of the injuries. So I need I think they need that on potential stopper in Wiggins. I think they need the offense that he provides as well, potentially in second units. I really think it's going to

be tough without Wiggins for the Warriors. Yeah, it's funny because with Golden State, I'm in a similar position. They can hardly contend with good teams without Andrew Wiggins and Gary Peyton. It's just they were already close to the line of minimum allowable athleticism and height on the perimeter to contend when they were healthy. Last year, they overcame that just because they were so good everywhere else. But without those two, they dip below that line to that

point of no return. The other thing, I'm glad you mentioned the Clippers piece because I viewed a weird kind of offensive approach with them too. But another thing that I've really noticed, especially in the last couple of months, is their lack of rim protection. And I know that you think of Zubak is the kind of guy who could do that at a decent level, and Plumbly's fine, but their numbers in protecting the paint have been atrocious

over the course of the last month. And everything about NBA history tells us you need an elite defensive front court to win an NBA championship, and part of me wants to go Kawai and Paul George doesn't that kind of somewhat make up for that, But they just haven't been able to protect the paint. So that's been a big reason that I've been somewhat on the fence with them. Are you would you include Memphis and Sacramento in this equation or do you agree with me that they that

they don't have a chance. I would not at this point include them Sacramento. I just think it's way too hard for them to defend. I think the teams are gonna be able to take advantage of them defensively. All due respects. I love the Kings. I love what they've done this season. I just don't see an NBA title level defense whenever they're going to be playing, for instance, potentially Phoenix, if Phoenix is full strength, I don't see how that's like not a four or five game series.

Maybe the Kings get hot, Memphis is harder, Memphis is mips. This tricky just because of the Job Morant issue that's hanging over all of this. What's does he look like when he comes back? Is he the same uber, confident, attack oriented John Morant every single game in game out. We're recording this before he has actually returned. At this point, my read is I think they have real deficiencies even with John Morant, because Jah is their lead scorer, he

is their key offensive option. He is not really a threat that teams are all that worried about beyond the three point line as they pull up threat and he is not really all that big of a threat that

teams worry about in the mid range area. If you stop him from getting to that little floater that he has, I think because of that, it's a little bit easier to drop coverage them, And I think teams that can drop are going to have an easier time with them kind of managing their offensive game plans, and then defensively, Jab is a real guy that they have to work around on that end. You know, Desmond Bane, Dylan Brooks,

those guys fight. But if you have to have Dylan Brooks out there, you're losing something offensively in terms of efficiency as well. So I as much as I love Memphis, I love the projects. I love what that front office has done to accumulate this group of talent. I think they're a year away at this point. Yeah, it's super interesting because Memphis crosses a couple of specific boxes that I value a great deal. I think their interior defense

is outrageously good. Did you see that stat from the Warriors game the other day that they held them to twenty two for forty eight shooting in the paint? There? Jaren Jackson every month that I watched him, looks one step closer to becoming, you know, the next kind of Anthony Davis level two way power forward defensive prospect that we have in this league. And I love that about them as a foundational piece as a championship contender. I think the Dylan Brooks thing and I hate that guy

because I think I think he's. I think he ever. I was out on him before he shoved the cameraman and that was kind of like the last thing. But the reality is is, like I also think he's. I think he's got a case to be considered the best perimeter defender in basketball right now. He's putting he's putting together a body count this year of stars, Like like even in that Kyrie game, I think he was eleven for twenty five. Like I think he did a number on Steph in those two games. He and look, I'm

not saying I need I need larger sample size. I need to see more versatility to put him into that equation. Like I think what Andrew Wiggins did to Luca and to Jayson Tatum in the last two rounds of the playoffs is a more impressive case, and I would need to see something better than that on a playoff stage. But like, I don't think it's a coincidence that every star that runs into Dillon Brooks this year is having like the nightmarishly bad games. It's like that that to

me is real. But outside of those two things, I think their offensive creation from the standpoint of dribble creation from the perimeter in their play finishing off ball like there, I think I think I looked it up the other day. They're a bottom five spot up team in the league by points per possession, which is ridicus. I think even Cleveland, who we talked about earlier as a team that was really ill equipped in that zone, was eighteenth, so significantly

higher up. They're less than a point for less than a point per possession on spot up situations. So I just don't think they have nearly enough offensive skill to make their defense, to make their defense weaponizable in a way that can win a championship. You and I actually, in our two shows that we've done together, we've never actually talked Lakers, So I how did that happen? I don't know, man, I don't know. But like, so here's

the thing. I if Lebron James can come back and get help, yeah, I am gonna be so tempted to pick them to come out of the West. When I think about the combination of Rock Fight winning just huge front court players and Lebron James and Anthony Day, Like, can you imagine the two of them battling with Harrison Barnes and Demonisi bonus for seven games. Like like, I think about the front court mismatches that they present. I think about the matchup versatility with the guy like Nicola Yokich.

I think about the influx of offensive skill, which is not They're not the most offensively skilled team in the world, but they've added a significant amount of it. The ability to weaponize guys like Jared Vanderbilt in high, high pressure

perimeter assignments that can that he can do. And I actually think that they've overachieved a little bit in this recent stretch because so many elements of their starting lineup don't make as much sense without Lebron, like Vanderbilts actually struggled for them quite a bit, I think in large part because without Lebron out there to kind of weaponize him as a cutter off the ball, his lack of

his inability to shoot has been a problem. But I just think when I look at the Western Conference, a healthy Lakers team I think has a higher two way ceiling than everyone else. Do you think I'm too high on them or do you feel a similar way. I don't think they have a higher two way ceiling than Phoenix. I think they're probably number two, okay. And the reason I say that, Look, they're sixteen to one right now to win the West. Like that's a crazy number to me.

I have no idea how that's a real thing this team. I'm glad you brought up the Vanderbilt piece of it, because he is a critical piece for them. He only works with Lebron is out there because if he, if Vanderbilt is out there, he is taking something off the court in terms of your creation ability and in terms of your offense. He's a great rim runner. He is

a great offensive rebounding threat. He is someone that will attack the glass and will attack you with the point of attack defensively and will rebound to be an incredible help defender across the board. He's a really valuable piece for them. I just also think that they really need him on the court because Lebron James getting a little bit older. I think he'll lock in defensively in the playoffs.

But he is someone that needs the possessions off You need someone to be able to guard the opposing player's primary or the opposing team's primary offensive weapon night in, night out. The other piece of this is what is gonna what is gonna What is the Russell gonna look like with Lebron James. I think it's gonna look really good. Assistently, I think that part of what the Angelo Russell has struggled with previously in his career is when he has to like manage that Okay, I'm the point guard. I

need to get everybody involved. I need to be the key distributor for the team versus just going out there and playing. When he's had the ability to just go out there and play like he did earlier this season with Minnesota for that month leading up to the trade where they used Kylie Anderson to initiate sets, they use Anthony Edwards to be able to initiate sets from time

to time. He was just able to go out there and play and go and it was the best stretch of his career that we've seen since he played with Brooklyn, which, oh, by the way, in Brooklyn he played with Spencer Dinwiddie, another guy that could share the load from a creativity perspective. So when I look at what de Angelo Russell is going to look like with Lebron James, who will be able to handle that distribution load in a really tangible way. I think DeAngelo is gonna be able to go out

there and play and it's gonna look really really good. Yeah. Him off ball is where I've been most impressed with him with the Lakers. He's got a lightning quick release on the catch and he doesn't have to jump very high.

There was a specific play I want to say it was against the Rafters where Austin they ran like a quick interchange with Austin Reeves coming off of a ball screen with Anthony Davis, and he made a little pitch and Ogna Nobi made an excellent close out, but Dilo just caught it and just fluidly just went right up into a shot without even getting much of a jump,

and he knocked it down. And Like, one of the big reasons why I'm enthusiastic about this particular fit is this, they do not need MVP two way Lebron Like, Yeah, like they don't. They Their pick and roll shot creation has actually been kind of excellent. I mean, I got in to a friendly discussion with Sam the other day because I was trying to tell him that I think Austin Reeves is just as good as Bogdan mcdonovitch. And then h that he had like a pretty big like, yeah,

he might be better right now. He might be, but like he, I like, they're they're weirdly deep. Um like Troy Brown Junior is an interesting kind of perimeter defensive weapon that will slot back to the bench when Lebron James comes back. And I mean, obviously the center positions a little bit of an issue. They're looking at it right now, where Lebron's gonna have to have to be their backup center in the playoffs. I don't necessarily think that's an issue. It's just a lot to ask from Lebron.

But in turn, they don't need him to run twenty pick and rolls a game and to post up twenty times a game. He can actually kind of functionally fit into this as a cog because of how many good pick and roll ball handlers they have. And I think Lebron in his career, I think a lot of times people look at him as a heliocentric guy. And don't, don't get me wrong, he can play that style. But I think Lebron's a lot more of a plug and play player than people give him credit for. I think

that he knows how to move without the basketball. He can be a guy who can screen and roll to the basket. Like there was a random game last ye where he just gave Stanley Johnson the ball and was like, here, I'll be the screen setter. You run our offense down the stretch, and it like works, and they beat Gobert and the Jazz. Like Lebron is actually sneaky, kind of

super versatile and can plug in all these holes. And when I think about the weaknesses in the team that I've watched play since the deadline, almost all of them are fixed by Lebron. A guy who can beat good perimeter defensive teams by drawing double teams in the post. Okay, that's Lebron. A guy that can help with contested rebound situations and give you basically a better option at the power forward spot in offensive situations where Vanderbilt's not working

maybe at the end of a game. That's kind of your guy. Like, I think he fits so many specific weaknesses. And again in a Western conference where no one looks great, I think that they make sense as like a threat to me, but obviously so much is up in the air, and I mean the Nuggets. I do think that it's a bit of an excuse to just blame everything on a lack of urgency, but at the same time, like

that's certainly part of it. You know, Like look, playing drop coverage right now, which is not what they will do in the playoffs, Like I can almost guarantee that, and it feels like they're doing it to keep Nicola Yokis fresh to me as much as anything, because you know, having to go out play flat play at the level of the screen every single time and then recover back

to your man it does take a toll. It takes a toll on your body on a somewhat real level, having to do it night after night, possession after possession. Drop coverage is a little bit more stationary, which I think does help Yokich. But at the end of the day, I don't know if I trust them in either defensive structure.

So that's a real problem with the Like honestly, like I would pick the Lakers if they have a healthy Lebron in a series against the Nuggets, because I think that they cause a lot of problems with their defensive ability against the Nuggets. You can throw Anthony Davis onto Nicola Yokich and then what it's Aaron Gordon on Lebron, and I think that that's just not going to go

all that well for Aaron Gordon. Because Aaron Gordon, as good as he is and as close to being an All Stars he was, I think that he's a little bit better having being able to help help Yokich whenever he's in those tough defensive matchups against Anthony Davis. He's a good on ball defender, he's a better help defender in my opinion. Yeah, looking at this Lakers roster, their best five is what a very real Austin reeves. It

seems like who looks awesome right now, looks confident. I've never seen that dude get flustered in his life is probably DeAngelo, Russell, Lebron, James Anthony Davis. And then when you have those four, you can kind of put out anyone at that point, right, You can put out Ruey If you want some like physicality and shop making, you can put out Jared Vanderbilt. If you want point of

attack and rebounding, you can put out Malik Beasley. If you want even more floor spacing to attack, right, I don't know, I think this is all some Troy Brown Junior there too, like as he's definitely got Coach Ham's trust, and he's kind of, to me like the bridge between Jared and Ruey where he's got some of that point it's point of attack capability that Jared Vanderbilt has, but has that like Troy's like Legit on the wings a pretty reliable three point shooter over the course the last

couple of months too, So I think you'll see some stuff there. Um, we're gonna move on to MVP, but it sounds to me like your lists is Bucks, Celtics, Sixers, Calves, Nuggets, Sons, Warriors, Lakers, So you're basically swapping out the Clippers for the Calves. It seems to me, is your list that's kind of it. Yeah, yeah, spread on, We're pretty close. I like that, all right, So I think we would have it ordered differently, Like I think I would have the Sons that like number

number three or four right now. But yeah, I'm terrified of the sun Sam, so I think they need to lose early. The later they get into the playoffs, the more I'm gonna be freaked out by their continuity. And I can pretty safely tell you right now that I'm probably going to pick them as my preseason title favorite next year. I'm terrified of them. I'm terrified a KD.

I think Devin Booker is just like taller, more dependable Kyrie Irving, you know, like Chris Paul is the one kind of weird piece, and we'll see how he fits in all of that. DeAndre Eaton has no choice but to buy back in just because of the stakes of it all. And then this summer they're going to be able to boost all of that perimeter defense weakness that

they have. So what I would like to do for this MVP piece is I'd like to quickly just rip off some stats, just some basic surface level stuff, but I doubt will spend too much time there, just because I think you and i'd both like to discuss it more from a basketball perspective, which is a big part of why I wanted to have this conversation with you, and I do want to hear like your reasoning in

the way that you go about this. So in games played, Yoka is in first place sixty four and bad fifty eight, yanis fifty six. But in the games that yokis played forty five and nineteen, that's a seventy percent win percentage and Bad thirty nine and nineteen. That's a sixty seven percent win percentage, forty two and fourteen a seventy five percent win percentage, points per game and Bad thirty four

Yannis thirty one, Yokas twenty five rebounds. Yannis and Yokas tied at twelve and Bead with ten assists, Yokis with ten, Yannis with six, although he's been getting a lot more assists lately. In Bad four point one efficiency, Yokis seventy percent true shooting and Bad sixty five percent true shooting, Yannis sixty percent true shooting. On off stats, the Nuggets are twenty seven points better with Yokis then without him,

and Bad ten points Yannis seven points. One wrinkle there though, the Nuggets starters have only played two additional games together compared to that Jannis lineup, but they've played one hundred and forty more minutes together, or to excuse me, that's compared to the embiad lineup. So what that tells me is they're just keep They're not staggering nearly as much. They're keeping their starters together. Yea. So like, let me also add to that, the Nuggets backup center position. This

year has been a revolving door of train wreck. I guess this is the best way to put it. And but I thought the Lakers made a huge mistake giving up Thomas Bryant. What was everybody thinking? I think the Nuggets made a huge mistake, you know, giving up three second rounders to acquire Thomas Bryant instead of getting better defensive wing help. So yeah, no, I just want to note for the record that the DeAndre Jordan Bones Highland

pick and roll defensive combination was a train wreck. Zeke Naji is not ready for this, and Thomas Bryant has not been good enough well, And Thomas Bryant's interesting. He's so hot and cold. There are days where he has it going offensively and he's great. It's just it's just

too inconsistent. So what I'd like to do, because there's a bunch of different elements we can get into, but what I'd like to start with is just what you're like, if if you were like, if you had an MVP vote you had to turn it in a week from today, what would your process look like. So my process is a little bit simpler than what I think other people's is you know, some people look at it who is the most valuable player to their team? Who is the guy bringing you know, if you took this guy off

the team, what would that look like. I kind of look at it is who is the best player in the league that I try to keep it as simple as possible. Who do I think is providing the most value to their team in the NBA. That's a different version of value than what I think other voters look at it. And I don't really have a problem with other voters looking at it in terms of like, oh, like if you take this person off the team, X, Y,

and Z happens, right. I just look at it as who is bringing the most value to a basketball court night in, night out, every single game. That is such a simplistic process I would imagine in comparison to what many other voters have. And I'm not a voter, so I shouldn't say any other voters what voters across the

league seem to have like pretzeled themselves into. It feels like when I talk to people about this, just I don't know, and like, here's the question I would ask you, do you consider the idea of the regular season and the playoffs being different, they are different beasts in terms of the way basketball's played in those moments. Are you purely someone that looks at this from a twenty twenty two twenty twenty three season that's all that matters, point blank?

Or do you consider the fact that we've seen these guys playing in the biggest moments before. This is something that matters, Like this is an input that matters in these conversations about who the best dude in the league is. So I love your approach because to me, simplicity opens the door for discretion, and to me, the game of

basketball is way too complicated. And we get into this in a little bit with the dance metrics, but it's way too complicated for any measure, for any stat for even just wins losses, Like we could talk about supporting casts, we could talk about all these different things, but at the end of the day, they are so all three of the guys that I considered here, they're in the top tier, which I'm sure you have the same top three,

which is yannest Yo Kitchen embied. All three of these guys have completely different ways that they impact basketball games like it could not be any further from each other even though they play similar positions, And so from that standpoint, I think that keeping it vague allows you to kind of approach the conversation from a bunch of different perspectives. And as far as the playoffs, like, I think you

have to factor that into a certain extent. And I understand the idea of, um, you know, it being a regular season award, and I appreciate that, and when I go over my system it will make some sense to you where I know, I know, But like, here's the thing, why do we do this, Sam, Why do we play the eighty two games? We do it as part of a journey that ends in the Larry O'Brien Trophy. You can pretend like that doesn't matter, but it does. And yes,

it is like two different seasons. Yes it's the eighty two and then we head into this two month playoff thing and the basketball gets very different. And I absolutely understand all of that, but at the end of the day, it's all the same journey from training camp to the Larry O'Brien Trophy, and so not factoring in the fact that playoff success or at least the way that your game translates to the postseason, as if that doesn't matter

at all in this discussion, I think is silly. And so the way I account for that is I have your criteria as one of three parts. So I have who's the best player in the league as one of the three parts. Then I have who is the best player on the best team. This is where we bring in team success with him this regular season. And then the third faction of this is who is most valuable to their team. That's where I'm looking at, like the way that team operates, and when you remove that player

from the equation, the way things change. And so for me like it if I were to ask you to rank those three as who is the best basketball player? How would you rank them? Ye? Honest? One, Mbat two, Yokas three. I had the exact same list, and I had to flip and beat and Yoki's just over these

last couple of months. I just the run that Embat has been on, as he's been a better basketball player than Yokis now for a little while, and there's no playoff leeway to throw Yokich to be like he deserves the benefit of the doubt, which I'm usually a big fan of, but I viewed their playoffs resumes is pretty similar. Like, I think they've each won four series if I remember correctly, so neither of them has this earth shattering playoff resume.

So to me, that's a pretty straightforward list. Who would you say is the best player on the best team in the league. I think it would be Yannis Embiid and Yokis at this point, just give him the records. Yeah, so I put Janis one Yokis too, based on that win percentage piece, Like Embiad's only one sixty seven percent of the games he's played in, and I think he actually has a better I actually think he has a

better supporting cast. Let's do that next. Actually, who do you think has the best supporting cast out of that group? If you were ranking them, I would say Embiad has the best supporting cast. You're playing with James Harden, and then you have a loaded deep team with Tobias Harris who's had a really underrated season this year. You have Tyre Smaxe who's average any points a game. I think

it's like unequivocally Joel Embiid as the best. And then I think you can parse between the Bucks and the Nuggets I would say that the Nuggets have probably had a better supporting cast around Yokich this season, just given that Chris Middleton has missed a lot of time has been coming back from injury. Now, Brook Lopez and Drew Holiday have been probably better than anybody on the Nuggets,

right I think. So, I don't know, Maybe it is Yokich at three in this conversation the more I think about it, but Yokich has the four guys around him that are absolutely terrific. I would say that Jannis has had two guys that have just been like, absolutely terrific. I'd like, if I was ranking the eight players that have started the most games with Jannis and with Yokich, I would have Drew Holiday and Brook Lopez one and two.

I would have the Nuggets guys in the next four spots, and then I would have the Bucks guys in the last two spots. How do you parse through that? I think that you can and make different determinations. That's what's so interesting, because so I had Bucks one and Sixers two. Although I agree like the Sixers offensive talent is like through the roofs? Did you know that they're they're the

best spot up team? In the league. They constantly have shake Shake Miltoner Georgis Niang on that weak side wing as just this deadly like if they if you help off that guy, it's going in. And they're like killing teams in fourth quarters loading up on those Harden and Bead actions by those kickouts to those weak side wing wing shooters. They they have a boatload of talent. One.

I actually, up until the Phoenix Suns trade, I thought that uh Maxi, Harris and Bead Harden was the most talented top four in the league up up until now you have the Chris Paul Booker at eight and Kevin Durant lineup um. But I would say it's close between those two between the Bucks and Sixers. To me, with the Bucks, it's pretty simple one of the best point of attack defenders in the league and the best ring

protector in the league. So like, the two of those guys together just kind of foundationally allow them to win a lot about I think that's why they've been a functional basketball team without Janis for most of the season.

And I have the Nuggets third. But you you said this perfectly, and I'm so glad you did because it's so underrated yes, there are players that in their starting lineup that don't necessarily have the same level of recognition around the league, but you could not construct a better lineup of players to compliment Nicola. Yokis your power forward.

Aaron Gordon is the type of player that in the vacuum is not super valuable, but what he does as a forward deck can kind of operate as a center in a lot of ways offensively in terms of what he can do in the dunker spot to quit, catch and finish around the rim as a lob threat while still being a transition threat and a guy that can occasionally knock down a shot. Contavious called well Pope, I think is literally one of the best role player two guards in the league, and I'm still sad that he's

not on the Lakers, and he's so perfect. He's so perfect with Yokis because of what he can do transition and Yoki is an outlet passer, and I think kcp's one of the best transition guards in the league as a movement shooter and a guy that can finish in transition with those long steps that he takes to the basket. Jamal Murray is slumping a little bit right now. But he is your textbook dribble handoff ball screen guard that perfectly compliments Yokich and Michael Porter Junior is arguably the

most deadly weak side shooter in the league. A last I checked, which was like a two or three weeks ago, he was averaging one point three points per spot up possession and him and like, so yeah, it's not necessarily in terms of ranking players around the league the most talented core ever, but it is a group of players

that very well compliments what Yokich does. And yes, there bench sucks, but so does Phillies and so like it's so, you know, it's one of those things where I don't look at I don't really see supporting cast as much of a factor in this equation for either of the three guys. I agree with you, I will say as well, to bring up your point about the Bucks, I think with Chris Middleton, the way he's playing, I think over his last fifteen games has averaged something like seventeen eighteen points,

six assists, five rebounds. I think he shoot being like forty eight thirty seven eighty seven or something like that. He's basically back to being pretty close. He's been a little bit more of a facilitator than what we've seen from him in the past. But he's basically back to being pretty close to what we've seen from Chris Middleton previously, and I think that that just elevates the Bucks even

further within their task conversation, they're ridiculously good. That is the best top four in the league outside of maybe Phoenix when we see them more. I think Janis Middleton, Brook Lopez, Drew Holliday, that's the best four in the league, depending on what Phoenix looks like. But Middleton has played you know what, fifteen games fully healthy this year, so I think I think the Middleton thing has been part

of why I haven't considered those four. But that's a really interesting case, especially when you factor in two way play because Tyree Saxin, James Harden or not good defensive guards. Chris Paul is not a good defensive guard anymore. He's actually become a target. Deandreton is one of my least favorite defensive centers in the league. So we're running a

little bit out of time. So I want you to I want you to make the case for who you chose FRIMVP and why I went with the honest and I think that the I think that as we've gone through this process, right, as we've explained all of the different criteria, that I think you've had me answer questions regarding who is the best player, who is the best player on the best team, who is the most valuable player, I think across the board, outside of maybe value to team,

I think it's Jannis. And I know that his efficiency numbers are not quite as good as what Nicola Yokichs are, and I guess we didn't really have time to have the metrics conversation. But if you look at what he was tasked with doing throughout the year as a shot creator, given the roster that was around him, Brook Lopez as not really a shot creator, more of a spot up three point thread at this point in his career, can offensive rebound, can do some things on the block, more

of just a spot up guy at this point. Drew Holliday inconsistent as a creator for a point guard. I think is reasonable to say there are games where he is hot and he is just very almost impossible to stop when he has the three point shot going. He takes so many tough shots. Why does he take so many difficult shots. I don't understand. Every shot for him

is like a drifting fadeaway. Yeah, it really is. So Jannis is tasked with a more difficult responsibility, I think within the ecosystem of Milwaukee's offense throughout a majority of the season. Now that Middleton is back, now that Joe Ingles is actually firing in like a fairly real way, he has really helped. They're passing their playmaking their ball

movement across the perimeter. Middleton has also really helped that, and he's also given them a bailout option as a mid rain shot creator late in the shot clock they

really needed. But for a majority of the season, Jannis did not have that, which is why the efficiency numbers are a little bit lower for him than they are for other players in this conversation, I think that when you combine the fact that Jannis is the most dominant player in the league just in terms of being able to create his own shot, going to the basket and finishing at just such an elite level he can do

it anytime, any point. He's averaging what you mentioned, thirty one points per game, something like twelve rebounds and six assists in that Ballpark. The numbers are great. On top of it, I do think he is the best defensive player of this trio. I have Joel Embiad at number two. I think Joel Embiid in Yannis are very much like almost one A and one B. For me, I think they're super close. I have Yoki at third. At this point, when we did this conversation on my show at mid season,

we also did not have Yokich at number one. We had Kevin Durant at midseason number one right man, Kevin Durant. I forgot about that. Yeah, Kevin Durant was in the midst of lead the Brooklyn Nets to like a twenty eight and twelve record or whatever it was, and it was unbelievable in those first games that he played. Was well deserving. I went with Mbiad here. I think the

fact that Phillis defense is genuinely terrific this season. He is probably the second most dominant shot creator in the league behind Jannis, and I think you could make a case that he is the most dominant scorer in the league if you really wanted to the thing with the honest is I trust Yannis as a pastor decision maker a little bit more. I like Yannis's defense a little bit better. And again, as you said, Milwaukee is the best team in the league. When Jannis and Teacupo plays,

that is it. That is it, point blank. I went with the Honest's MVP seventy five percent of their games man, so it was it was pretty basic for me. Best player in the league, I went Jannis and bok best player on the best team, I went Jannis, Yokich, Embiid who is the most valuable to their team? I went Yokich, Inmbi, Jannis, And if you kind of break those down, where place is worth three points, second is worth two, third is

worth one. I had seven points for Yannis, Yoki with six, and Embad with five, And you know, I try to stick to that criteria as best as I can. And it's funny, is I came into this process when I sat down with my coffee this morning, I was like, I expect to pick him Bead. I really did think that, Yeah, he's I've been so high on him. And and when I break it down based on the rules that I try to go by, I had Yannis one, Yokich two,

and inb three. So I think the one place we agree disagrees we flopped Yokichen Embiid, but I think all three are still incredibly close, and it is it has been a highly entertaining race, so we do have to go. Here's the thing, Sam, I really want to get into this advanced metrics conversation with you. The problem is is I know us and we'll spend twenty minutes on it.

So what we need to do is we need to We'll either we'll either do it at a later date this season or we'll hit it this offseason because it's definitely something that I want to spend some time talking about. But I am I have so much fun talking basketball with you. I'm so thankful that you took the time to come on the show today, and I look forward to talking with you again soon anytime. You are one of the people that pushes me to be better at this with how detail oriented you are, and I am

always happy to talk basketball with you. This has been terrific anytime, I'm more than happy to come on. Do you need to plug anything? Game three podcasts, Go listen to the podcast that I have. Jason was on a week ago. We talked about rising stars across the NBA guys that we think are going to be All Stars go to the Athletic as well. Yeah, just go subscribe to that. We'll be able to find my work. The volume