Hoops Tonight - Kevin O'Connor on how SGA broke Pacers defense + how Haliburton can succeed vs. Thunder | NBA Finals

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that are swinging this series one way or another. Kevin's been someone that I've admired for a long time from Afar. I've been lucky to come on his show a couple of times. First appearance here on Hoops Tonight. One of my favorite people cover in the game, Kevin, how are you man?

the high variance guys down the list. What has that been like for you?

where he missed. I tracked like that he missed long, short, left, right, backboard, Like I like doing that stuff. That's fun to do for me, regardless of the quality of the draft. But it is more fun when more people care about the drafts and more people care about the draft, and when there's prizes in the draft, and Cooper Flag being a prize at the top, Dylan Harper a lot of people do consider a prize. I'm not quite there with him

being some generational guard. I think he's really good. But I think next year, in twenty twenty six, is really gonna be probably the most fun draft class that I've ever covered. I've been doing draft coverge since twenty thirteen. My first Draft guide was in twenty fourteen. But like, next year, man, like there's like three or four number one pick quality guys, Cam Boozer at Duke, Darren Peterson Hansas, and then A J. D. Bonsa, a native of Brockton, Massachusetts,

where I'm also from, going to BYU. At least those three, and so like, next year, I think it's gonna be insane with all three of those guys in college basketball, all playing for big schools as well BYU big time on the rise. So I think next year it could be like the peak of my draft covers in all the years I've been doing it. But it's fun for me personally every single year.

But there's no doubt that when the people are invested, it gets to be a ton of fun. Kevin does great work covering the draft. Make sure you guys follow him on Twitter and is your draft guide out yet?

the line a little bit more. He took only twenty one shots, not thirty shots, but his teammates also shot significantly better, So I felt like he gave, okay see what they needed in game one. But I do feel like he came out in game two with a bit more pace on his end of things, on top of some of the tactical changes, you know, logo pick and rolls further out, you know, more post ups and all that.

Like I, I was okay with his Game one performance though, so I didn't really subscribe to some of the criticism of him in game one.

seventeen footer around the right elbow area, but TJ McConnell's kind of sagging in off of Chet off of the left wing, and he's sitting behind Thomas Bryant just right off of that like left handed drive, so it's like he's not there bothering the pull up shot, but he's making it so that the drive he couldn't like, couldn't like snake to pick and roll to try to get back over to his left hand or anything like that, and instead he just throws a little pitch out to

Chet Holmgren on the left wing and TJ McConnell closes out, he pump fakes, he runs past him, and he ends up hitting a three. And it felt to me like that was a little that was a pull up jump shot that both him and Jay Dub were just taking in Game one, that like kind of fifteen to seventeen on the shot clock, type of like decent shot that

we know he can make. And I remember in the moment, you know what's so interesting, Kevin, I remember in the moment watching Game one, being like, like, oh, like Shay's attacking the finals like he is. He is not letting himself, you know, shrink or feel uncomfortable. He's like, I'm gonna find a way to get comfortable out here by taking these shots that I know that I can make. And I I thought that just in general, his approach was a little bit more geared towards hunting advantages in Game

two versus hunting his shot. There were some pretty significant differences in the numbers. They had a ninety six offensive rating in the half court in Game one. They had a one to sixteen half court offensive rating in Game two. Now, obviously, as we know, part of that is just guys knocking down shots, but they also generated more. They generated twenty three unguarded catch and tchoo jump shots in Game two,

just fifteen in Game one. As a team, they threw two hundred and thirty two passes in game two compared

to two hundred and seven passes in game one. I did think he in general just kind of like let the game come to him a little bit more, which allowed him to again, this stuff is a lot in a lot of cases like super supernatural in terms of discussion, when we're talking about rhythm and flow, and it's like it's very difficult to quantify these things, and it's always going to be a certain amount of like subjectivity, and

it's up for debate. But I did think that Shay just in general, made a bit a little bit more of an effort to kind of keep the ball popping around, some quicker decisions, some of those reads earlier in the clock, taking some of those tougher mid range jump shots in later clock situations, or as a counter sprinkling in aggression, just to keep the defense honest. But like, at the same time, I did think his floor game was a

little bit better. That said, I do agree with you that there the young guys were more comfortable in this game, and that certainly helps. And a lot of the times, you know, these guys will react based on what their personality traits are, like when Shae sees his teammates struggling, he's gonna think. He's gonna think shoot the ball, right, just like when Tyree sees his teammate struggling, he's going to confront the issue by trying to pass the ball.

More So, like I guess my take is just that I thought that he kind of was more of an active participant in the team's rhythm in Game two.

shot eight of fifteen on assist opportunities. So like his teammates shot better off of his passes in game two, they shot horribly in game one, whether he was passing the ball or somebody else is passing them the ball, or they were self created shots. But to your point, like that's where I think you and I agree, is that I did feel he was just more comfortable in Game two, he was just more comfortable. Whether that was due to his approach in the game to your point,

coming out early looking for his teammates. Most of his passes in Game one came in the second, third, and fourth quarters, not as much the first quarter, setting a tone for his team looking to pass, or whether it was due to game planning as well, because okay, so he was sitting screens further out more logo logo pick and rolls where you know you have Indiana going over screens in those situations where I feel like maybe you want to go under when it's that far out, and

you have him posting up a handful of times as well, Like I feel, that's where I feel the biggest difference is that I thought in Game one there there wasn't as much variety as there was in Game two from Shay because, like I mentioned this on my podcast last night, I had Adam Adas from All NBA on it, like him and I were talking about Adam's the best, and like him and I were talking about SGA as well, and like I mentioned to him, you know, there's this

one play in the late mid or late third quarter where SGA split a pick and roll. Hartenstein was on a short roll. He found him immediately because he was you know, Sga got pressured. He split the pick and roll than Hartenstein found Cruz on a cup. But then the next play, Sga got posted up on the left block and okay, See cleared out everything for him. He drew attention, kicked it out. Okay, so he swung it around the horn and found Cruso in the right corner

four three. So it's like, I feel, okay, See put him in different spots on the floor more often, and maybe these things are all connected, where like him looking for the pass more is in part due to some game planning here with putting him in different areas of the floor versus Indiana kind of knowing what Indiana was

doing in game one. As Dagnau called it after Game one, it was a feel out game and maybe that's where Sga felt it out and he just felt overall more comfortable and the game planning was better and the teammates just made more shots.

a passer in game two. So I wanted to check the numbers, and I saw the same stuff you did in terms of like the passing numbers being the same, and my rationalization was with that was exactly what you said, which is if in game one, I think he took eleven shots in the first quarter, I actually thought Shaye made all of the kickout reads in the fourth quarter

of that game. Like Shae was fantastic in the fourth quarter of that game, getting dribble penetration through those guard guard action or hitting the guy slipping out of the action, and like the pacers were throwing sometimes two three dudes helping at the basket, and he was making the kickout passes. He did make those passes. The difference to me was

in game two he started the game that way. And I've just always been a believer that if you invest in rhythm basically early in the game, if you target these opportunities so guys feel comfortable, there's just more of an opportunity for them to be comfortable throughout the game. That said, love a good disagreement, love a good argument. I love the other stuff you hit on, Like I thought the left block post ups were like a huge

development in game two. It just it puts the ball in Shae's dominant hand, so it's really easy for him to pass out of that. And like when he gets into single coverage, he was able to draw fouls or score against nemhart And and Mathrin, but at the same time he was able to use it as just a easy vehicle with which to get the defense in rotation

the part I want to zoom in on. And I also just thought I thought you mentioned this too in your bit, the like just in general, like it felt like they were more willing to have Shay sit off ball and let other people run action, which was another part. Like there was a play in the late second quarter or late first quarter where like it's like Shae's just literally standing off ball. Why Isaiah Joe's running action with Hartenstein,

you know what I mean. Like they were just a little bit more willing to let other people get involved in the offense. And I thought that that was contagious and that it just kind of flowed down the roster as far as the pick and roll coverages go. This is where I think it gets fascinating. So whenever we're having these discussions we have to lead with saying.

some of his stuff in drop coverage. But everything at the level in this series I think has been brutal for Indiana, and the two problems I should say the three problems that they keep having is one Shae rejecting screens. So when they bring up whoever it is, whether it's Topen or Turner or Thomas Bryant, that guy's setting up to get on the side of the screen that they're expecting Shaye to go. And then when he rejects the screen,

there's nobody there four on three. Or they'll throw that hard head or switch with that guy and he'll quickly split that now they're gone four on three, Or the dude will slip out of it and he throws the pass over the top and it's four on three. So to Shay's credit, he has butchered this coverage with his ability to generate the four on threes. Do you think Indiana needs to consider pivoting to a different coverage to try to have a better chance to contain Shay?

court or zone defense against Oklahoma City. With Indiana entering this series, I believe the number was they had three total possessions of playing zone. Those are like sideline out of bounds plays when they would do that, but after makes in the third quarter for a short stretch they're playing zone. Is that why you think possibly because of the issues with regardless of whatever the type of covers are using against shape pick and rolls, that that could be the answer.

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a softer switch, you could try a deeper drop. There's all these like different things you can try to me the softer switch, the deeper drop. In particular, at the very least you're going five on four instead of four on three, meaning like as he comes off the screen, you have one of those two guys who was originally assigned to Shay at least back trying to help facilitate your plan for dealing with him. Zone is another way

to do that. The thing that scares me with zone and we did see last night both teams score against the zone in the brief situations where.

It's even like Game one. Like Game one, it's the super aggressive help on drives and they have a rough offensive night and they solve it one night later.

are standing up at the top of the key trying to rotate out of it. So, like I guess, I guess it comes down to just whether it's zone, whether it's a deeper drop functioning in a way where you keep that fourth defender in a position to help and rotate.

first round. But like, there just may not be real answers for Oklahoma City with their amount of guys who can generate offense off the dribble, because it doesn't need to just be SGA. You said it earlier. Other guys are getting opportunities to create in Game two for the thunder, But every guy on that floor can do something with the ball in their hands, or they can do something in motion, like even Caruso, he wasn't just hitting like standstill threes in game two, like some of them were

off of movement, and that's Alex Caruso. And then you have Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren who had terrible game ones. Jdubb a bit better, I thought. In game two. Chet Holmgren was awesome after a really rough start for him in Game two, he was great the rest of the game. But like every guy on that roster, even Aaron Wiggins,

can do something off the dribble. So it's like, even if you do, even if you contain SGA, there's somebody else on this Okay see team or regardless of the lineup Dagnault has out there, they can do something with the ball in their hands. Even Isaiah Hartenstein on the short roll can dribble once or twice to get to

the cup or make the smart pass. That that's what makes them really, I think, an impossible puzzle to solve, and sometimes I know it's like very like simple to say that that's where the zone I think you force them to become a three point shooting team, that their frequency of threes goes over fifty percent when you're when you play zone defense against them, you're just gambling that they have an off shooting night when you do that, because you're you're giving up open threes. You're just hoping

and praying that they have a poor shooting night. So that's what I think Minnesota and Denver, especially the Nuggets kind of gambled on doing because Okay, see he's gonna shred you either either way. But I do wonder if that's what we'll see from Indiana because everything you're you said Jason about you know, man coverages or pick and roll coverages, like there's no there's no real answer. I can't stop thunder and Shae.

pull up three point shooter to justify that. They're doing that to try to stop him from getting ahead of steam and it's just not working. And like the other problem is is you could sit back all you want, but he's just gonna go at that dude full speed and probably draw fouls or end up getting around him anyway. Like he's just a huge pain. And like the same sort of at the level coverages, Jay dub was torching too like a chet attacking off the bounce in this game did a lot of a lot more work off

the bounce. I thought he was unbelievable defensively. Last night too, I was watching the film, like his switching and like he was getting stops on Haliburton, he was getting stops on McConnell, he was getting stops on Matthin, He's getting like it was he is so so so good. It's crazy to me my guess is that what Rick Carlisle will do is going to Game three, maybe with something involving a little bit softer at the level stuff. But

I don't think he'll go to zone right away. Where I think he would go to zone is when the shit hits the fan in Indy, so like, yes, like when they find whether it's in game three or game four, they find themselves down ten twelve points, I think that's when he'll do it. And to your point, it changes

the game. It takes them away from being a dribble drive and make read type of team to more of like a processing and shooting team, which again is even though they're awesome, is not the thing that they're like most renowned for, so really really fascinating stuff on that end of the floor.

are gonna do what they want to do. But if you do play zone, that's where you can influence the types of shots that they're taking. So I think you're right though, like when shit hits the fan, if it happens in Game three or four Indiana, like Carlisle like they wants won the finals the Dallas Mavericks against the Miami heat The difference is Dallas played a ton of zone all year long and then really you know, puzzled Lebron and Wade and Bosh in the finals against that

Heatles team. But he did use it in the finals before, and like, this is a guy who's used zoned throughout his years as an NBA head coach, but not here in Indiana. So I wonder if that's a card he's uh, he's he's holding on to for the right for the right specific moment when that time comes in this series, and I'd be surprised if we don't see it in a continuous amount of time in a game at some point.

on two of seven through the first three quarters. I just don't think Anyana has any chance of winning this series. If Halliburton is taking only seven shots through the first three quarters of games, it's just they're not gonna win the series. Halliburton needs to be looking for a shot more early, or the Pacers need to design more actions to get him looks early in game speeds. He's two elite of a shooter off the catch, too elite of a shooter off the dribble, whether it's from three or

from mid range. And in this series, I looked up the shot distribution numbers this morning because like, he hasn't gotten to the rim at all. Seven percent of his shots in the series against Oklahoma City are in the restricted area, twenty two percent in every other series in the playoffs, so almost a quarter of his shots were in the restricted area up until the finals, and now

it's only seven percent. They're forcing him into more paint shots, more mid range shots, and even from three, he's not taking as many of those, so on self created chances, this is the only self created chances. So with Halliburton, if he's not getting into the basket, he's a near fifty guy on mid range jumpers. I feel like, in the same way that you said SGA took to many of those at times in Game one, Halliburt is not

taking enough of those. In my opinion, he is an elite mid range shooter, but he's all about rim in threes. To me, I think that's an area that he can exploit that he doesn't enough because he's sticking to what he does at an elite level. But sometimes I think you need to take, you know, the B minus shot and not just always look for the eight plus play because sometimes the B minus player the B play is the best thing you're going to get in a half

court possession against the thunder. So I do think he needs to be more aggressive early in games. I personally think he should be taking twenty shots a game, not fourteen to fifteen shots a game. And that's rerooted in my belief of who he can be as a scorer and who he can be as a creator despite some of the athletic limitations agains against these elite defenders he's facing every single possession.

And so I was like, Okay, like there's a reality to the fact that Tyresee is not the type of athletic scoring guard that can just consist like that can pull Kyrie Irving footwork out of his bag and like knock down these crazy shots. But what Jackson said to me at the start of the mail bag last night

really got me thinking. He was like he was like, why doesn't he just take a few more of the questionable like like to what you're saying, the B minus shots at the very least to try to maintain some more rhythm and it could free up some more of those opportunities were like, the defense is reacting to him more because he's being more aggressive. And so then I kind of approached my rewatch this morning with that same kind of ideology in mind, and He's right, Jackson's all right.

There were specifically some drop coverage looks, because what stood out to me last night is I was like, okay, yeah, the shots that he was getting in the fourth quarter were drop coverage looks like they ran a stack, pick and roll that Oklahoma City didn't switch appropriately, and he got a dunk. He shot a floater against drop, he shot a little right elbow jumper against drop. The toughest one he hit was that one coming off of the ball screen on the right wing that Jay Dubbed contested

very well and he hit like that three. But the point is is he caught a rhythm. He caught a rhythm and then he made a tough shot, which is what happens when you take shots. You catch a rhythm

and then you can start making some tough shots. And so I kind of have come back more towards the middle in the sense that, like, I don't think Tyrese can solve this series by just like putting up thirty five points a game, but he absolutely does need to be somewhat more aggressive, And to me, the example is just taking more of those drop coverage looks when they're there. So for instance, there was one where he came and actually really resulted in an illegal screen on Myles Turner.

But there was a play where he came off of a ball screen at the top of the key in like the late second quarter where he came off and Hartenstein was six or seven feet back, but he was still over and Turner was rolling, and he threw the pocket pass instead of just taking the pull up three

that was there. And my thing is like Indiana actually did quite a bit of damage on action like that in Game one on offensive rebounds, So it's like at the just put it up and Turner's crashing with the Hartenstein up not at the level but containing you on and he's probably gonna step up in contest, Turner's got a good shot in an offensive rebound there. So, like I just think in general, there's a few there are definitely more opportunities for Tyrese to look to take some

of those coverage beating shots. And at the end of the day, like you have to be an active participant in your team survival. You can't be a passive participant. And so to me, I'm kind of occupying that middle ground where I think he absolutely can be more aggressive. I just also don't think he can be you know, thirty five point per game guy.

in the NBA. But I think, like you, like you said it, like Jackson said it last night to you, sometimes I think he's gonna take some of those shots and and like maybe there's certain nights you won't have to because on a here or a Nie Smith is going crazy or or a Nemhard it's his night, like it won't always have to be that, but I think there's certain games where Halliburton needs to feel a moment

and say, okay, has to be me tonight. And the example I always bring up to me like Halliburton is so much like a younger Jokic in the sense that there was a time where Jokic would have four shots in a game, two shots in a game, and because he thought, well, I'm being selfless, I'm passing the ball to my teammates. I'm I'm not a selfish player who jacks up shots. I want to make my teammates better.

And then he learned, oh wait a minute, me being selfless is actually doing the things that my team needs me to do because I'm mis great as a player. And he learned how to be a dominant score to become a guy that's taking a kind of shots. And Halliburn is not Jokic, to be clear, Jokic is a talk about a one on one dominant, huge elite footwork,

different type of player who can do those things. But I don't think Halliburton's quite learned that lesson yet that for him to truly reach his potential and truly be the most selfless he could be for his team, sometimes that requires him taking those tough shots. Sometimes requires him being the guy who takes shots four or five possessions in a row. And I don't think he's learned that

quite yet. And maybe he'll learn it in the middle of the series, because we have seen both Indiana and both Oklahoma City, both led by a tony young guys on their team, get better throughout the postseason. Maybe Games three, four, however long this series goes, we'll see Halliburn have a night like that and things click for him, like, hey, okay, I can do these things and sometimes I have to do these things for the greater good of my team.

then they will play the pass, and your passing opportunities will not be as rewarded as they could be. Similarly, as a scorer, you've got to show a willingness to beat double teams with the pass or you're going to be shooting over double teams your entire career. And so there's a certain amount.

series thinking that Indiana had very little chance. I still view Oklahoma City as a substantial favorite, but from what I've seen in the first two games, I actually do believe that Indy has a pathway and it essentially stems around the fact that I think that they're fast enough to rush Oklahoma City's ball handlers enough, Like for instance, in the first quarter before things got ugly, I thought that Indy defended Oklahoma City well again, and it basically

stems from the fact that and I think I heard Zach Low is the first guy to call this out, and God, it's been great, Heaven Zach Beck.

rush the drive into traffic. I think Memhard and Nie Smith can do just enough of that as a team. They rotate and contest just well enough that they can play Oklahoma City into some offensive roles. And then on the other end of the floor, I think they've proven that when they don't turn the ball over and when they get the ball popping around and they kind of expand the advantage incrementally over possessions that they can score. So like I look at it as they can win this series.

at home. So I think we're gonna see a split this week. That means we're gonna at least see a Game six, and at that point in the series, who knows. Who knows what could happen, Like Indiana will host Game six, who knows. Anytime you reach a game six or a game seven, anything can happen. And the Pacers have proven

me wrong. I thought they were just like a league pass Darling during the season, like a really good regular season team, super fun, and then they just be a playoff, you know, team that gets eliminated, A good story, fun team to watch. I was wrong. I was wrong about them throughout the postseason. Here they are the NBA Finals, and I very well could be wrong about them once again in the finals. Like it's just it's possible I could be wrong about them. But I do think Okay, see,

I still I still think this team is special. I still think this team we're witnessing the beginning of a really long run for them. Whether that means dynasty, multiple championships or not, I don't know. You don't know how the complexion of the league will change, how other teams will evolve, either. But I think we're at the beginning of like a really long, sustained run of contention for the Thunder and this team is like, this team is just better straight up and one of the reasons why

Indiana is able to be here. You know, Kenny Atkinson, the Cavs head coach, said something after they got eliminated in the second round where he's like, you know, Indiana's you know, speed, athleticism and their physicality. He talked about how there's like a mental edge to that for them to have the endurance to sustain that from start to finish in games, and I don't feel like Cleveland ever matched that. New York never matched that from start to finish.

Okay See in game two, I felt like did match that, Like that speed, that relentlessness, that that toughness, like those intangible things that has set the Pacers apart basically the whole season, since the middle of December where things really

started to click for them. Okay See has those athletes, they have the depth as well, they have the stars who embrace playing that way as well, Like Sga was awesome on defense and game to the amount of steels and deflections he had, Like how active he was on switches against Siakam. I remember they tried to post him up once and I think the second quarter, and he just reached his long arms around and just like snatched

the ball out of the air. Like okay See has that ability and and in ways that New York and Cleveland don't have. And that's where I feel like the Thunder everything Kenny Atkinson said about the Pacers, I think you can also say about the Thunder particularly their defense. So that's where I still I still lean heavily for the thunder. But I'm not. I've been wrong so wrong about the Pacers. I'm not. I'm not gonna say, oh, I'm this time, I'm right. I might be wrong again.

winning that series. I h One of the things that I think is I love the point you made about like matching Indiana's like mental fortitude, because like that is one of the most remarkable things to me about watching this Pacers team is their basketball character. It is like the things they do all suck, like running that much, and like like one of the things that Indiana does that I think is really fascinating is like, even when they give up an open three, they will throw a

token close out. And what's fascinating about that to me is like they those guys know, they know that NBA players when they're that open aren't seeing the late hand that comes like after the release. But it's just part of their character. It's like, no, this is what we do. We close out. We close out every single time, and we run the floor every single time, and we pressure the ball every single time.

just athletically that Indiana couldn't match. And so it got me thinking that Indiana's only pathway is to sweep the home games, because in theory, if they won two and three or three and four, that would be a must win for Oklahoma City in Game five. So you're gonna get that same athletic leverage and then in theory of Game seven trophies on the line, same sort of thing. I am not sure that Indiana can match it when

they get to that point. Do you think that Indiana has the ability to match Oklahoma City athletically when they need to.

have an all time great postseason defense as well. You know, Halliburton hits the game winner in Game one, an epic moment, but he hasn't been great, and neither was Anthony Edwards and these are neither was nikolae okicic. So like if this continues or even worsens for him, like if it gets harder for him, because think about, like okay see, to get to this point, they save their best coverage for yok in the close out game, putting Caruso on him and swarming him. They had their best game against

Edwards in the close out game against Minnesota. They have cards that they're waiting to play that they had we haven't seen hints of yet against Tyre's Halliburn, or against Andrew Nemhard or against Passal Siakam, that they're weight and use that they haven't used it, and so they have that in the back of my mind as well when I think about how we've seen the Thunder close out teams to get to this point that we may not have seen actual actually what their best game plan is

to win some of these series. So I'll still pick the Thunder to win in six now, not five, because I think Indiana will at least take one game at home in Indiana. But you know what, maybe this is a one Sixers Lakers type of series as well, where Philly wins game one and then Lakers win the next four and it's the beginning beginning of a run for the Lakers. Maybe that's what this is, and the Thunder are gonna sweep their way after a gentleman sweep their

way to a NBA Finals championship. We'll see. I mean, do you agree there, Jason that like that's what we could see here.

that's gonna be my guest. I think there's like a there's like a Indiana first finals game and god knows how long I couldn't even tell you the last time they were in the finals, and then it was what early two thousands, right, And then you have the ball pressure element like I had an Okay see fan ask like or an Indiana fan ass last sign on playback, like how does Oklahoma City get away with all these fouls?

And it's to me, it's like so simple. It's like the team that comes out and plays with more physical force actually gets a better whistle. That's just always been the way it's been. Like if you come out and you physically kick a team's ass, like you don't get called for fouls. It's like the craziest thing. It's just how it works. And I feel like it's just and I'm okay with it too. I'm okay with the refs rewarding the more physically aggressive team. But Indiana is going

to be that team in Game three. And we know that Oklahoma City's offense is not rock solid. It it can get knocked off its foundation from time to time. So I do think Indiana will get one. But every time Oklahoma City's been in a situation where they've had to win, where they've had to get the job done, even when they're in an ugly spot, like down eight in Game four against Denver in the fourth quarter, down nine in Game five in the fourth quarter, they just

keep coming through. And I'm I'm more on your side of things. I think this is one of the special teams in NBA history, and I at this point would be really, really surprised. But I'm thankful for the Pacers because they have made this an entertaining series and I was worried that it might not be and it like I will remember this Pacers team very fondly regardless of what happens. But Kevin, you've been very generous with your time today. I sincerely appreciate you coming on the show.

Can you tell everybody where they can find your work?