Episode 67: Bucks/Suns Game 5, And The Downfall Of "Bag" Twitter

anything like that? And she's not, like we have like six I think we have six Flags in Phoenix, although I've never Okay, so you're not a roller coaster really person or love roller coasters? Just haven't been my wife, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, so those are fun. Yeah, it's kind of a scam to me because like you wait one hour for like a your best bet is like a one minute and

a half ride. So basically like we went on nine rides in nine hours, which I mean the day flies by a little bit, but nine degree whether you start questioning yourself like this right, Superman is literally thirty seconds long, but the weight is about an hour and a half. So by the by the end, you're kind of like, did I get scammed? You know? So, um, but yeah, I went through that. Yeah, I'm not a huge theme

park guy for that very reason. I like I I like to think I'm a nice guy, but I'm not a fan of being around people, which I don't like. I don't really know how that works, but that's that's kind of the way I am. Um. Anyway, but I had a basketball heavy weekend. We the men that I played in we had a double header on Sunday and then we just kind of chilled tou put some golf

on Saturday. Is pretty low key anyway. Today, we're gonna talk about Game five of the NBA Finals, um really briefly, just for about ten fifteen minutes, just kind of because I felt like it was almost a continuation of Game four in a lot of ways, with exception of the fact that Drew Holiday made more shots than he usually does, uh, and Chris Paul was a little bit better. His numbers I thought were a little better than he actually was.

But then we're gonna talk a little bit about how what what this Bucks victory means for the Lakers and their team building strategy. Um and and just whether or not it should adjust their strategy this summer as they're kind of making some moves on the periphery of their core players and the roster. And then, last but not least, I was not overly active on Twitter, although Raj was a witness to the catastrophe that was the Hoopers versus

basketball players debate that took place in Twitter spaces. I have some thoughts on that. Rog has some thoughts on that. So we're gonna get to that after we talk about the game. But let's start. Let's start with the game. Um you know, I was super wrong about this series, uh, right up until the point where I was very raw wrong, if that, if that makes sense, like I was, I picked the Sons in five. I thought they were the more skilled team. I thought they were the more talented team.

I thought it would manifest over the course of the series. Um And in a lot of ways. You know, it was close to that. You know, a couple of things go differently in Game four, they could have been up three one, and then same goes for Game five. But it's important when you're wrong, in my opinion, it's it's important to try to identify why you were wrong. And you know, one of the one of the key reasons why I think I was wrong is I've undervalued the

way that physicality will eventually win the day. And the examples that we used to kind of try to talk about how maybe shot making and skill we're taking over, where teams like Philly losing, in teams like the Lakers losing, when the reality was the Lakers lost because Anthony Davis got hurt, and the Sixers lost because outside of Joel and b didn't have anybody that could create a shot for themselves, and in their offense got really, really stagnant

at the end of those games. So I think we overthought that a little bit, and I put a lot of emphasis on how the Lakers desperately needed more shot making and how they desperately needed more shooting, and and I think the Bucks are evidence of the fact that that's kind of wrong, because when you get to this point and the physicality takes over and the refing takes on, this type of you know, these types of tendencies and uh, and it just becomes almost like this battle of attrition,

like whose body is gonna hold up the longest? You see guys like Chris Paul wearing down. You know, Devin Booker, God bless him, just keeps making shots, but you know

at some point he's gonna start missing some shots. And the thinner players on the Sun seemed to just be kind of getting run rough, shot over by these the like by these big, huge, strong the NFL player looking basketball players that play for the Bucks and and so do you think do you think maybe that that maybe we jumped the gun a little bit on some of this stuff having to do with skill and what wins in the NBA? Well, first thing, did you bet on

this last one as well? Or no? I have not bet since I law okay, okay, I was wondering, Um, I thought, Phoenix, I think this is at least this is where I was wrong. I don't know about you. I did not think Chris Paul would be taken out like this. Like I know Drew Holiday is a really defender.

I totally understand that, but like this is the stage where the you know, the people who are on that list where Chris Paul is, He's a top whatever point guard, however you feel about however you feel about his antics, all the other ship he does to try to win you have to give him his credit. He's a big time, all time point guard. This is a stage where you show up like it is what it is. I did not expect him to be played off like this, Like

there were possessions. I was writing it down. Second quarter, Chris Paul comes off the screen, Drew Holidays on his hip, takes a tough shot. Missus again comes down, takes a tough shot. Next next possession, he goes, stands in the corner for like the next three possessions, just absolutely relegated to the corner as a corner spacer. That's and Drew Holiday wins in that situation. Now it's just Devin Book. You're trying to create one on four like it's That's

the thing where I did not see coming. I did not see him just struggling like this. His line is very um, I don't say fake. But he finished nine for fifteen. He hit his last five shots, so he was basically four for ten when the game was in his real balance. Chris Paul made this run. They made

their run obviously to try to make it close. I couldn't believe that that he fouled, honest, Like, this is one of the most highest basketball i Q dudes in the league, Like he just can't file your honest in that situation, you know, and we can debate it, yeah, debated dirty player, dirty player or not. But to me, that's the change here is Chris Paul being completely taken out of this series. Devin book is hitting you know, crazy and saint shots. But that's where I was wrong

at least do you see that as well? Like, I think the physicality has gotten to him, right, I didn't think it would at this much law at this level, Like he's been really taken out. He can't do anything that Chris Paul does, even though his thirty six, but still like this, I didn't see him getting taken out like this. Yeah, So I think that, uh, Chris Paul's inability to gain an advantage against Drew Holiday, has he actually been the downfall of this series because it kind

of manifests both ways. So I think that that uh, a lot of the discourse surrounding Devin Booker and his unwillingness to pass that I'm sure you've seen seen some of something that's been floating around. I don't think that's Devin Booker's fault. I think I think it has to do with the defensive scheme of Milwaukee. They are not sending help on these isolations and pick and rolls with Drew Holiday, with Drew Holiday on on CP three and with uh PJ. Tucker on Devin Booker. The reason why

is CP three literally cannot gain an advantage. He's being an inefficient score with Drew Holiday on him, and Devin Booker is being a high volume score, like he's getting forty points, but it's taking him thirty shots. And so from that perspective, I think they're staying home on all these shooters, and as a result, they're not getting these wide open corner threes that they got against the Lakers and that they got against the Clip is that they

got against the Nuggets, that they got against everybody. They're not getting any of those, and so as a result, it's like Devin Booker just going off is basically they're only offense and until one of them can consistently draw a second defender, which I think it would require CP three because clearly Buddenholzer's like, I want Devin Booker to go off. I'd rather let him have forty and none of the other guys get shots. So if the cascading effect that you and I always talk about, you know,

gravity works both ways. You know, you your spot up shooters have a form of gravity. If they're knocking everything down, they pull guys away from your stars as they're working into the paint. But the gravity works in reverse. If your stars can consistently generate such an advantage that you have to send help, then the gravity sucks everybody in and then the shots start coming. So the only way that they can go into Milwaukee and win is if Chris Paul starts to cook Drew Holiday in a way

that starts requiring the Bucks to send help. But what sign have you seen that would make you think that that's going to happen, because again, you it's so easy to be like he's old, he's wearing down, Drew's physicality is wearing him down. But they have two days off before every game, Like like I don't think people realize that part, Like two days off before every game. He's basically going into these games unless he has an injury. He's going into these games as fresh as you're going

to be. In a playoff game like that, that's as fresh as you're going to be. He just physically now that Drew Holiday is like duned into all of his moves, he physically cannot get by him, and he physically cannot gain an advantage in the mid range, at the three point line. Anywhere he can't get he can't gain the advantage. It requires almost a defensive breakdown for for him to

be able to get a look. So I don't know, I don't I probably will put money on Milwaukee tonight because just strictly from the the pathway of the the way this the series is broken down, I don't see advantages for the Suns to gain tonight that would allow them to hang in front of twenty thousand bucks fans that smell the title. Yeah, and and I trust the honest as a leader to keep those guys focused. And I I I I if I'm a Sun's fan, I'm feeling really bleak right now. I'll give Suns fan a

little bit of hope in a bit. But like you mentioned Devin Booker, Um, it's not like his forty is Like it's not like he's open because Chris Paul's covered, you know what I mean. Like he's taking tough shots coming off the pick and roll, hitting really tough contested twos, and we we knew Phoenix was a high ball, screening

heavy team. Like their guards aren't like crazy athletic, they don't are really shifty, don't get by you, but they Like what Milwaukee has done to me is they've kept every screen and roll like a two on two right, Like it's not like a it's not five on five,

it's not a four on five situation. They kept it two on two, and that makes it um really tough, I guess for Milwaukee, like for Phoenix, Drew and Drew and Middleton took forty five shots in game In game five, I think five of them were at the rim, So like when I just look at those numbers, like those are shots you have to kind of live with. Like I feel like Drew and Milton both hit really tough, kind of contested shots. The place the game changed to me was the Sounds were up six team Devin Booker

went off the floor for five minutes. I think they changed that to a one point lead when Devin Booker came back, Like you that just can't happen, Like you work so hard to get that kind of lead, you can't give it away in five minutes and I think that's where they need to fix Chris Paul. If it's not going, you have to put Booker back in, Like this is do or die. He can't sit six s three minutes? Like do you think that's possible? Do you

think he'll get worn down by doing that? Like he played the whole second half and I thought he was fine. Like I feel like that six minute break in the first step changed the game to me, Like it it let Milwaukee come back, You're honest, gotten a rhythm, he got to the rim by that time, it was they were bulldozed over. They went up ten, and that was kind of the game. But DC does what do you think Devin Booker can go the whole forty eight or is that like something Monty can't really do with him

just because of his workload. I guess on the floor he might have to. One of the hard things is Milwaukee has done a really nice job of attacking Devon Booker to make him work, to try to wear him out. In that regard, uh zach Low had Tim leig larn Yesterday is actually a really interesting podcast. I appreciate Tim's perspective on on everything because he's kind of like one of the best, he's one of the better former player analysis that we have in the league, because like he oh,

he's awesome. But but Zack Low brought up the stat that I think and I'm I'm like, sure I have the stat right, but don't take don't take me at face value at this But anyway, uh, In forty minutes this series with Devin Booker off the floor, the Sons have been outscored by thirty seven points, which is almost a point per minute, which is outrageous. That's that's the

wheels coming off literally. So again, like I said early year, to me, this series completely swung on the fact that they never had to send any help at Chris Paul. Now they should in theory, like if if if the team, you know, if if this was a regular season matchup against a lesser version of the Son's team, you throw a bunch more help at Devin Booker because guys can't

make shots. But by strategy either letting Devin Booker go and like you said, it's not it's not your Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving forty points on twenty shots, it's forty points on thirty two shots, because almost every shot Devin Booker takes is in the midrange. He you know, this is something I can't even remember who it was, but somebody brought up as a weakness a while back. Devin Booker is actually kinda not great as an off

the dribble three point shooter. This is something that Jayson Tatum has done a really good job early in his career as he's turned a lot of like side step and and lateral step step back type of threes into his repertoire, so that even though he does take range shots, he's getting a lot of off the dribble, high quality three point shots. That's what Chris Middleton and Paul George

do super well. Um. That's now, mind you, they're a little bit taller, But that's something that Devin Booker needs to add to his game so that he can be more efficient in terms of the amount of damage that he's doing per shot attempt. Um. And and that's nitpicking because he's been unbelievable in this series, to be clear, But at the end of the day, it's it's really

that simple. If you don't have to send help at the stars, then you could stay home on all the shooters, none of the role players get going, and you're basically begging two small guys to try to beat you. And Devin Booker's relatively small compared to stars, about six five and and you know, and and that's the thing. This is something you and I talked about all the time. Like, when Janice puts his head down and goes to the rim, you are not stopping him unless you put multiple bodies

in front of him. So every single possession down the floor, Janice is generating some form of of you know, condensing of the defense, which is generating high quality shots one way or another. There were there were plays at the end of that game in game five where it doesn't

necessarily get attributed to Janice, but it should. There was one where, uh, Janice kind of just took a really hard dribble to the left, and I think it was Devin Booker or might have been CP three whoever was guarding Drew Holiday had to take a lunch step into the lane to cut off, to cut off your honest quick swing to Drew. He closes out like it's it's a decent close out, but Drew beats him to the

baseline and he's on his hip. It's not bad defense behind the stretch of the imagination, but Drew gets all the way into the paint and kicked it out to uh to Chris Middleton, and he ended up knocking down a three. That is an advantage game play that started with Janice drawing a second defender, which then cascaded into a wide open three for Chris Middleton and in crunch

time of of a pivotal playoff game. That's the thing, and this is what this is what Lebron and a d do to do all the time that we take for granted. Like if you let Anthony Davis and Lebron play isolation all game the way they let Booker, it's forty on twenty shots because they're living at their rim,

they're absolutely destroying you. Whereas with Devin Booker, it's this like heroic, like incredibly difficult shot making, which again brings a great deal of value, but it's not the same as the physical dominance that absolutely requires you to send multiple defenders at and and that to me, has been where this series has spun. Like all playoffs against the Lakers, against the Nuggets, and against the Clippers, the Sun's got all kinds of fantastic three point shots for Crowder and

for Cam Johnson and for uh, for Michael Bridges. All those guys were just getting catch and shoot threes and they're not getting any of those. Uh. Zach Low pointed out in the pot. I think they've had thirteen corner threes total in the whole series in five games. That's awful for them. Yeah. I think he's had like almost three quarters. That came in Game two, So I think they've had like six and like four games or something.

And again that's all because they don't have to send help like and and I heard, and it was great to hear, like Zach Low and Tim Legger I think talked about it too, talked about how Aden needs to be the guy, like he needs to be able, the guy that punished inside um. And that's why I keep harpening on Aiden, because like he's the one that needs to be the inside force and he's just not. He had twenty and ten last night, Like I didn't even know that until you go back and look at the stats.

Like I think that kind of showed um he wasn't really putting his stamp on the game. Like even the twenty and ten. Didn't feel like it was dominating, Like it felt like his shots were just coming. Uh, they weren't really like putting pressure on Milwaukee to send extra help or anything like that because he played four He played five minutes, so it's like it's twenty and ten. But on a per thirty six s basis, that's like going for sixteen and seven, you know what I mean,

because he was just out there so long. Yeah, exactly. And again, he needs to be a force inside and maybe I don't know if that's on the guards. I really am not sure, but like he needs to be better than Duccans, like and they're sending help, but like and his kind of reaction time isn't as quick. And I don't blame him. He's in his third year in the NBA Finals, Like this is the most this is the top of the top basketball level, so um, and he will get better at that. But for them, they

need him in this series to be a force. I'm not sure how many free that he got six free throws I think, which again is just in forty two minutes, Like that's not enough for a team that's going small as much as they did. And also Brook Lopez has been a lot better. I feel like like he's not getting killed as he was. He's showing higher. And we talked about how Bud is like a reactionary puncher. I didn't expect them to punch back like this, Like if

they win tomorrow, that's four straight wins. Like that's that's that's gonna be tough for Phoenix to kind of sleep on. Like you go up to oh, you should be able to take one more like they should go at least seven. Um, but Milwaukee looks in total control here. Um they look ready that they went down sixteen and didn't blink. It felt like when I was watching the game, like it didn't feel like they got startled, got nervous, continued to round their stuff. Um, Chris Paul missed like four straight

shots and that was they came back. So what we'll see and get we'll see tonight, I guess. So last topic on this game before we get out of here. How does Phoenix go in and win in game six? Like what has to go right for them? To me? Chris Paul has to build on whatever he did um in game five, like he hit his last five shots. I thought they were in rhythm. I thought they were

still kind of tough shots. But it's the shots that he gets, like he has to hit those those little his little patented um crossover, dribble, mid range pull up, those little step back he has to get in any kind of rhythm to give Devin Booker some kind of, uh, take pressure off him. And now I thought Zachlem made a good point. Is I don't know who made this point.

I don't remember Zachala or not. But Chris Paul is getting picked up like full court, coming up the court and then trying to run offense like he's dead by the third quarter, like they got to have other people try to bring it up campaign Devin Booker maybe brings the ball up. He doesn't get as ball pressured in the back court. Something you talk about all the time. Having Shrewder bring the ball up saves Lebron's legs. It's it's a it's wasted energy to face ball pressure for

no particular reason exactly. Chris Paul gets turned. They call it getting turned right. He gets turned like three or four times before he gets to the court, and then the shot clocks like at fifteen seconds. Then he calls up eight and it comes at the screen. Drew is on his hip, so it's not like he's getting very much separation comes off. Aidan's not open, Lopez still stays with him, and then it's like Chris Paul trying to creator gives it the den Bookers for some hero shot

and that's where the shots are going. Um Bridges and crowded aren't getting looks. So it's basically them too, taking fifty percent of the shots from the mid range. That's not a winning recipe to me, even if Booker is hitting them at the rate he's hitting at. So that's when they needed to go. What do you think? What does Peelings have to do to win this game? Six? Real quickly? Did you did you play on small in

high school at all? I did. I played at this little small school in l A. But I played for like the first two years and then I got transferred to another school, so I didn't. Did you ever have to do the Turner man drill? You know what I'm

talking about? Many? Yeah? Yeah, So where you like, yeah? Yeah, of course where you started the officers baseline and then they dribble left and they dribble riding you stay with ye It's the most common drill and basketball every single level, the high school teams, my my college teams, every single team that I played on did this drill. And uh, it's like they call it turner man five times in the length of the floor. You have to try to

turn your man defensively five times. And regardless of whether you're the ball handler or the defensive player, that drill is completely exhausting. Like I always viewed it's I always viewed it as a conditioning drill as much as it was a ball handling drill mixed with a you know, defensive principles kind of a kind of drill. And you're right,

like it just it just wears you down. And you know, again, there's a huge difference between like, uh, forty minutes playing one way and forty minutes playing you know, a different, less intense way. Like I'm gonna go play pick up this afternoon and I'm probably gonna walk up the floor a lot of the possessions and I might play for an hour and a half and it's gonna be super

light and easy. But like if I was playing twenty five minutes in a high level competitive game where I have much more responsibilities, I'm gonna be completely beaten, exhausted. It's it is crazy how much of a difference that

kind of thing, uh, that kind of thing makes. But anyway, as far as getting a win down in down in Milwaukee, I think it starts and ends with avoiding the first punch if you can somehow whether that first we're gonna win the title tonight punch that comes in front of that home crowd, and then just hang in there long enough to where crunch time offense becomes an issue for Milwaukee, because all year long the Sons were an extremely good clutch team and the Bucks had their issues and crunch time.

One of the things that's been kind of a revelation in this series is how great Chris Middleton has been at the end of these games. He's always been a gifted closer in terms of his ability to create his own shot, but in this particular postseason, he's been more consistent. It used to be he was an inconsistent type of cloth during these games. He's made gigantic shots in this playoff run, including the shot the little turnaround around the free throw line that beat the Brooklyn Nets literally in

overtime of Game seven. This guy in Game four and in game five, made big shot after big shot. You just if if he you know, returns to the mean a little bit, so to speak, and Janice is forced to make some of those decisions, you might be able to steal this game. And again, if you steal this game, historically game seven at home, the home team usually wins.

It's like the percentages in the high seventies, if I if I remember correctly, So to me, it's about keeping it close to where your advantage can take effect, which is in crunch time. As far as how to keep it close, it's extremely smart and uh um disciplined defense. Milwaukee has struggled to score in the half court. They've scored well in transition. In the half court, it's been

very physical, it's been very rudimentary. So if you have your principles intact, and you're and you're positioning yourself between them and the rim, you'll force them to make shots and they might go on a cold stretch. And then from there in the half court. Offensively for the Suns,

you gotta get something out of Chris Paul. If all that goes the if those things, if those boxes are checked, which is very doable, then it's just about a few shots here there at the end of the game, and you might be able to steal this one and send it back to send it back to Phoenix. Did you have anything else on this game for uh? Yeah, well, I guess like my only thing was, like, I feel like they overreact a little bit to Holiday, Um and Midleton once they hit a few jump shots. I thought

they really kind of closed out hard. I thought, you can't react to that. You can't take away that and Middleton and you're honest at the rim, like you you can't do all three and their shooters, Like you have to pick something. And I'm going to live with Holiday and Middleton trying to hit shots off the dribble through the whole game, hopefully that you know, it goes to the advantage. But that's that's the only thing I guess

would say. But Chris Paul asked to be better man, Like I expected more from one of my favorite point guards. I'm seeing him get dragged through this whole time. Um, But yeah, it's it's tough watching him kind of struggle. He does some weird stuff, but I feel like he's one of the legends, and uh, I thought he would get his ring this year, but he hasn't hasn't come to part so we'll see. He hasn't been the first

guy to face a big road game six. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that this could be his moment, this could be his his shining moment. But it's he's gotta go, He's gotta go do it. And for the record, I think a lot of the Chris Paul like Chris Paul is objectively unlikable because of all the stuff that he does. Is something you and I have talked about a lot, But I do think some of the criticism

sent his way has gone a little too far. I mean, at the end of the day, he has a six foot tall point guard and expecting him to go out and do what Steph Curry does or Kyrie Irving does is just not necessarily fair. Those guys, Kyrie Irving six two, step Is six three, they're both more athletic. It's it's just it's just difficult, m um. Anyway, Let's let's move on to the to the Lakers aspect of this. So you and I spoke after Game six against the Suns

when I got back from vacation. We talked about the missing shot making on the on the on the Lakers, the we we just watched Phoenix, it was like, man, McHale Bridges would put the ball on the floor and get to the fifteen foot line and he would elevate knockdown a shot. And you're like, man, who's doing that

on the Lakers? Like, who's the guy who can attack close out in a more complicated way than just shooting an open three or ripping through all the way to the basket and make a you know, make those kind of secondary and tertiary you know, counters when they when they attacked close out and there was just nobody on the roster that could do that. Well, the truth of the matter is as Milwaukee's kind of that same type

of team. Like I mean, Chris Middleton is a streaky jump shooter who doesn't really try to get into the lane much at all. I mean Drew Holiday, I have to, you know, eat my words a little bit because I said that he's pretty much average at everything. One of the revelations Withdrew Holiday in this series is he's actually a much better passer than I think we give him credit for his ability to create open shots for his

teammates has been actually pretty amazing. But what Milwaukee is doing, for the most part, outside of Chris Middleton's more complicated jump shooting, is they're just putting their head down and going to the rim because they're the bigger, stronger team.

It's almost like it's almost like that that like a perimeter shack type of mentality where it's just like drive right, if they cut you off, skin back left and keep going, and if they cut you off their skin back right, keep like they're just putting their head down and they're getting to the rim. And so from that standpoint, you know, the Lakers are incredibly well equipped to play that style of basketball. And I think at the end of the day, like we forget that the Lakers kind of man handled

the Suns in Games two and Game three. It looks kind of like these Milwaukee wins over over over the Suns, and so I think maybe that doesn't mean that the Lakers shouldn't look for some sort of additional playmaker someone allah C. J. McCollum is the guy I've got my eyes on. However, you know, if if they can't get anybody, I don't think it's it's time yet to just pretend like this is, you know, a team that needs to be drastically changed because they have a better version in

my opinion of this Milwaukee formula. You know, I think, I you probably this probably isn't the summer to say it, but I think Lebron is a better version of the Honest, a guy that if you you have to send help to the rim or he's just gonna bowl you to the basket every time except where he's gonna make all these correct passes all over the place, and he can

beat you as a jump shooter off the dribble. And then you've got uh, Anthony Davis, who's arguably as physically dominant as the Honest, or was capable of being as physically dominant as the Honest. So I think, like I think, at the end of the day, this series has been a lesson that there may one day be a time when skill and shot making can take over the NBA, but I don't think it's yet, and and right now it still appears to favor the more physically dominant team,

the one that can thrive in this rock fight environment. Yeah, it's always like a Yang and Yang, right, It's always like working back and forth Like if you go too much in one way, then you're susceptible to being attacked in the other way. So that's kind of how I see it, man. Like just watching Phoenix, like they swept the Denver Nuggets even though you know they were out with some people. Um they beat what Portland? And did

they play port And who did they play? They played? Uh, they played Denver and US and it was what they play in the West. The Clippers yere up up to all on the Clippers, but yeah, we forget man, Like the Lakers were up to one shooting from three and most of these games beating with the physicality, and you're seeing a lot of similar stuff, like their players are wearing down. I thought Drake Cowder was Jake Crowder was

starting to get more down in the Lakers series as well. Um, but yeah, and when you have Lebron and a d that's kind of your baseline level and they're going to create open shots. Uh man, they would kill this small lineup. Like I just think about what they did in Houston last year. We forget man. People picked the Rock a lot of smart basketball people, Zach Low included. You know, I love Zach Low. One of my favorite analysts. He picked the Houston Rockers to be the Lakers because that

style was killing. That was a new style. James Harden, Russell Westbrook, small ball. Um, they had what p J Tucker at the five, which is kind of funny with set p J. Tucker doing what he's doing now, but very similar. They ran very similar offense, spread out James

Harden and the honest role a little bit. He's not you honest obviously, but just in terms of the heliocentricism and um, yeah, then the Lakers obviously said, okay, we're gonna do eighty at the five, and I dare you to switch every action and they did end up with Robert Covington. Um with the other guy. They have the guy that kicked out the Bubble Daniel house, you know, ending up on a D and it was just laughable.

A D got whatever he wanted. And then we forget against Portland, who they had to start Hassan Whiteside and nurkersh together just to match up with the side. So it's just funny. Look at that, like, that's where I think I would kind of build on the season. It's tough to kind of gauge I think there's things to improve and all that, but yeah, physical physicality still wins

the day. If you can have both, that's the whole point, right, you don't have to choose a d and Lebron are also skilled like these aren't like seven footers with no you know, handle or who can't you know, dribble or catch the ball or any kind of stuff like that. These are highly skilled, also physical players that use both. Lebron uses physicality to also supplement the skill, which I think is um is best of both worlds, and we're seeing is just tear through them and I just can't

imagine what a healthy Lebron would have done. He obviously was not himself in that Phoenix series, so um, but yeah, I agree with you. I think there's something to build up. Yeah, and you know that versatility is key because the story

of this series is Milwaukee physically dominating them. But at the end of the day, at the end of these games, it's a lot of surgical stuff from Chris Middleton, a lot of you know, really high level shot making over contests, you know, off the dribble, uh like tough shot making

from Chris Middleton. And so that's where the verse atility is key, and that's why you know, uh, like, even even when you watch those those uh Lakers wins over the Suns, like there was in Game two, it was like, uh, it was Lebron taking and making really tough off the dribble jump shots in the late third quarter, quarter in early fourth quarter that kind of put them over the top, you know, and and you know, in their championship run

it was like, we're physically dominating you. But there was a lot of really high level shot making from Lebron and Anthony Davis, and so having a guy like c J McCollum in the mix, just to add even more high level shot making to that Laker roster while also having the ability to physically dominate teams is definitely intriguing. I think I think that that's the kind of move

that they need to try to make. But yeah, at the end of the day, your your core identity needs to be something that has proven to work in this late round playoff type of environment, and that means you need to be able to physically dominate every edition. You can't have uh too many, you can't have more than basically maybe one finn player on the perimeter. Everybody like you can probably get away with a Schroder, but you can't get away with like a Schroder and a campaign

type of guard like that. Those Chris Paul campaign lineups are getting destroyed in this Buck series. Um and then and then you need to have guys that in the half court when things really slow down that can generate quality shots in that type of physical uh environment. And so the Lakers have that core identity that that that's in their core, that's who they are. They've been that

for two years. And so as long as they keep that and make little moves on the property periphery to add a little bit of versatility here or there, I think they're I think they're on the right path. Have a question for you because like we talked all year about the Lakers kind of defensive guards, right, they have really good defensive guard play shrewder Case. He is really

good at lock and trailing chasing guys. Alex Caruso, I think I don't know if you would agree as our best probably perimeter defender has the size and kind of speed. I'm more biased in this. I don't ask you, like can Caruso do of what Drew Holiday is kind of doing here, Like, is he at that kind of time? I don't. It probably doesn't have the talent of True Holiday or the physicality, but like, do you think he

can kind of assume a little of that? Because when I watched Drew like defend like this, it reminds me of watching Crusoe. But like I'm more biased, I watched a hundred more Laker games any of the team. Do you kind of see that or is that like or is Cruso kind of another tier of defender of True Holiday in terms of chasing like a guy like Chris Paul and making him work for everything. I think Crusoe

is is near that level. Um. Now, the reason why I wouldn't say he's at that level is mainly has to do with out of respect to Drew Holiday, the fact that Drew Holiday does it for forty minutes a night every night for the last bit basically a decade um, whereas Crusoe has been doing it in a limited role. He's playing usually you know, between minutes a night and doesn't have the same amount of defensive responsibility. Blah blah blah.

But I think Caruso is an absolute wrecking ball defensively, and I think he does it in a similar way to Drew Holiday. He does it at the guard position, as a big, strong player in an environment where physicality is allowed. He just bumps people off their spots and he's really good with his hands. He's good at not fouling. It's all the extra effort stuff, never quits on a play, all that stuff. I think. I think that in that role,

that's what you're getting. And for the record, this was something uh Pete from Laker Film Room brought up in a podcast I think it was yesterday, Uh, when he was talking about how like sometimes the Lakers would just come out with lineups where it was you know, lebron A, d Andre, Drummond, Kuzma and Caruso and you're like, you're you're you're going seven ft seven ft six nine six nine six five or six six or whatever, and everybody's strong and Drew Drew Drew Holiday kind of is that

for Milwaukee. He's the the ability to have like a small guy on the floor, but at the same time one that doesn't sacrifice your physical identity as a team. And that's what Crusoe is. And you know, like you and I said all year, when push comes to shove for the Lakers. You can talk about Drummond and whether or not he helps to play him. You can talk about Kuzma, you can talk about, you know, uh which

guards to play. But at the end of the day, it's like when when it when the chips were down, it was always going to be Lebron, a D, you know, Caruso, k CP and either Kuzma or Wesley Matthews, depending on

who had to go in that night. At the end of the day, they were gonna go with just a really basic, uh defense heavy lineup and have all the shot creation go through through Lebron and a D. And so you know, at the end of the day, like like that, all this other stuff doesn't matter as much as long as your core group can get the job done. That's what's happening with with Milwaukee is no matter how crazy it gets, you fall down by sixteen points in the first quarter of of of a Crazy Him in Phoenix.

It's like when we go to Janice and Chris Middleton and p J. Tucker and Pat Conaton and Drew Holiday, they can't score on us and we're physically bullying them on the other end, and so it's just it's at the end of the day, it's like, who's your guys, you know what I mean. And Crusoe, regardless of whether or not he's on the same level of Drew Holiday, I know that I can count on Crusoe to be that guy with that group and be near as impactful on the defensive end, which is all you really need

him to be in that lineup. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And that's what I was wondering. I think Lakers kind of simulate what Milwaukee was doing here in terms of chasing guys over. It just reminds me of their defense, Like I remember when they had a Crusoe on Dame for the whole first round pretty much and kind of forced Dame to kind of handle a bunch of physicality for

the whole round. Obviously they sent help when they're supposed to do and all that, but just that's what's reminding me of watching Drew just absolutely take Chris Paul out on Chris Paul is not Dame, he's not the age or the scoring throw anymore, but just watching him absolutely

eliminate him. Um, Jevin Booker is getting free as well, but just on the switches with Drew it's it's cool to watch a defensive masterclass like this, Like I feel like that should be louder than the Chris Paul is choking, Like that's a very easy kind of narrative put out there, but just looking at the basketball of it, it's cool to watch you guys step up like this. And this

is not the first time Drew all they has done this. Um, he did this to Damian Lillard and when he was in New Orleans as well, Like this is he has a reputation for this um and CJ. Mccollumn as well to a lesser and extet, So like, I feel like

that should be louder. This is one of the best maybe defensive guards that we've seen, instead of just ever yeah, instead of just saying Chris Paul chokes, Like that's a that I mean, I guess you can say that, but that's not really the story to me that's happening on the court. At least. The story is Drew Holiday is making a hell for him to get any separation for a six one to six to guards. So I just want to ask you that because I think it's interesting.

The Lake just kind of build off that Crusoe is a free agent, which makes this even more kind of fascinating here to to see. Yeah, like Tim Likely said, Drew Holidays built like a um, built like an NFL strong safety is what he said. And you know, in Crusoe is two, which is crazy because like I'm I'm I'm six six and I way about two thirty, so

I'm pretty strong for a guy my size. But like you look at a picture of Alex Crusoe with his shirt off, and you're like, there's another level to this, Like like Alex Cruzo probably doesn't weigh quite as much as me because I have a bunch of weight in my legs, but like he's so physically strong and powerful in his upper body that you can tell, like when he there's like little bits of contact that you can get away within basketball because the refs don't like to

blow their whistle all the time. That's kind of like a policy. They do their jobs, but they would prefer to not be heavily involved in the game. So like these little little forearm chucks here, little hands here, that kind of stuff is allowed. Well, when you're as strong as Alex Crusoe is, or if you're built like an NFL strong safety, the way that Drew Holiday is those little bumps in little chucks completely throw you off balance and and all of a sudden, like you know, taking

a little turnaround jump shot. Instead of you elevating and getting a good clean look at the rim, now you're like jumping almost at a forty five degree angle because you're off balance. And when you're getting into the lane and you're trying to finish strong at the rim, now you're fading away from the basket and throwing some crazy hook shot up because Crusoe or Drew just kind of bumped you a little bit and the ref didn't call it that. That kind of stuff is all part of

that advantage. And you know, and and for for the record, with the way the game is officiated, when you get into these late rounds, it kind of turns into this you know, mono imano physical matchup, like who's who's bigger,

who's stronger, who's faster kind of deal. And you know, and the Warriors are always pointed to is the skill team that that got over the top of I guess like we always forget they were a top They were top three defense almost every season there in the first three years that they that they were in the finals, and it was like Andrea guadala Is every bit is is physically imposing, as as as the best big wings in the league, and Draymond Green was Draymond Green did

a lot of that to Kevin Love. Like Kevin Love would post up and he'd turned and face and he do a little jab step, you do a little like back down dribble, and Draymond would just a little shove, a little push here, and he'd be way off balance and next thing you know, it's like, oh, like I can't even get a shot off against this guy, you know what I mean. So the Warriors were a very physically imposing team. Then you threw Kevin Durant into the mix. Is this like seven foot freak who when he was

trying on defense was like Anthony Davis. Like that kind of thing that have made them very physically imposing. They just also had the high end shot making that came from Steph Curry and Clay Thompson and Kevin Durant made them so tough to beat. Um. All right, let's move on to this this bad Twitter thing. So, as Roger and I were talking before the show, uh, him and I, I I basically sat that one out because I was pretty annoyed by it and I just didn't want to

be a part of it. Roger listened to the the Space a little the Spaces a little bit and heard some of this stuff. But this has been this has been an extremely uh popular topic over basically the last like a couple of years, because there was the big thing with uh, you know, Lebron and his weird pullback three point shot and how people talked about how like this was his go to move and he's killing the

league with this move because he has no bag. And then it was the Janice stuff and the Janna's first James Harden stuff, and then it was like, oh, who's on the mount Rushmore of scores? Can we can we include Lebron James on the Mount Rushmore of scores when he doesn't have all these polished moves like some of these other guys. And and then it you know, climaxed with this whole thing with Janice in the finals, which led to uh, perhaps the most ridiculous uh graphic I've

ever seen in my life. And uh, like you said earlier, we're not gonna dunk on on Phillips here. That's not the point. We want to have an interesting conversation surrounding this. But the premise was that guys like John stock then and Clay Thompson and Janis Antenna Coompo and Tim Duncan or basketball players but not Hooper's uh, which fundamentally doesn't make any sense because I would argue that Clay Thompson and Tim Duncan in particular are two and John Sockton

are are They're just incredibly skilled basketball players. Um, they just didn't do things the way that you know, other players different archetypes did it. So I guess before before we get too much further into it, let me just ask you this, like what was your reaction when you saw that graphic? And and what's your kind of macro

worldview on the whole skill versus impact type of discussion. Yeah, it's tough because like, obviously I didn't play super high level basketball, but anyone who's got into any played, I don't care where you played, high school, middle school. Like if you play in open runs in twenty four, like, you'll meet people who are like trying to, you know, be professional basketball players in whatever level. Like I remember I would play and run at twenty four is a

guy trying to play who's trying to make the G League. Um, he was trying to make the G League roster, and he absolutely would kill in those runs like destroy us, And I'm like, man, this is the level of dudes like in the like, if go watch G League games and watch dudes play like these dudes, it's so hard to even make that level. And I think just once you like the the argument is one of the guys was making if he was Tony was like, once you

become an All Star, you're automatically a hooper. And for me, the levels like once you make the NBA, like like like I don't believe you can really make the NBA without having some sort of love of hoop. I mean there are very rare exceptions. Um, Like people use Andrew Wiggins as an example of a guy who might not really love basketball the way he does. But I mean that's also I don't know Andrew Wiggins, so I don't

know if he does or doesn't. But like that's my biggest picture with that, Like saying Tim Duncan doesn't love basketball, it's such a doesn't I'm sorry, isn't a hooper It's just such a weird thing to say Tim Duncan is the best power forward, Like they even said Tim dunk is the best power for whatever. But he's not a hooper. Well that that that that doesn't really make sense to me. So let me ask you a question. Does ask a question that was asked in that thing? And um, it

really threw me, It really drew me off. Do you think John Stockton would be able to score in the Drew League? Absolutely, there's there's no question. Um. You know, I think that, Uh, I think that aesthetics end up being the driving force behind most of this stuff. People gravitate towards specific types of basketball players, you know what

I mean? And um that that's kind of the funny part about about me being a Lebron fan, like my my my fanhood of Lebron has a lot more to do with him getting me interested in basketball, despite the fact that my family didn't really expose me to basketball, um, more than it has to do with me being a fan of the type of game that he has, you know. Like for me personally, I've always been a score like I I play a lot more like a Devin Booker type of player than I do like a Lebron. I'm

not a great passer. It's actually a weakness in my game. I don't see the floor as well as as really good passers do. Uh in in in the local hoops scene here, So like when I played with the men's league, I try to find a guy who can be a more traditional playmaker because it kind of compliments my skill set more. And you know, uh, the reality is is

like you've talked to five random guys. You know, two of them are going to gravitate towards the Kobe archetype of basketball player, and three of them are going to gravitate towards the Lebron archetype of basketball player. People are just fans of different styles. I do think that people highly underestimate how skilled these guys are. Like you guys, probably you guys probably see me post a lot of

basketball videos on on on Twitter. I post those basketball videos because I'm addicted to the game and because I'm I know I'm entering this phase. I turned thirty this year where I've got like five years here where I can have like a five year stretch where I'm at my absolute peak as a basketball player. And I really want to enjoy it, and I really want to maximize it, and I really want to have fun with it. But

let me make one thing perfectly clear. I am nowhere year good enough to play in the NBA, not even remotely close. That's how good those guys are. You see me take every conceivable turnaround jump shot. You see me take every conceivable step back jump shot. I have all the dribble moves, I have all the stuff that you would qualify as a bag and I am nowhere near even remotely qualified to play in the n b A. If you put me on the Lakers roster, I would get man handled in their practices. I am not. I

am not even remotely close to that level. Well, you have to understand is like these guys, even the ones you don't think of as someone who's particularly skilled, they they shrink their games down to fit into a role in the NBA. And that is the key difference there, you know, like like like if you Clay Thompson plays a fundamentally sound, shrunken version of his game to fit within a championship concept alongside one of the ten best

basketball players ever. Clay Thompson takes most the on balanced jump shots with a really quick release and then he adds a little bit of stuff off the move. But that's about it. If you went and played pick up with Clay Thompson, he'd be doing seven dribble step back threes to his right, seven dribble step back threes to his left. He'd be doing stuff out of the post. He'd be doing stuff everywhere. He's capable of all of that. He shrinks his game to fit within the championship concept.

Same thing goes with Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is the epitome of a player who has embraced the fact that a simplified version of his game would lead to championships. He didn't need to do the Kevin Garnett crazy fadeaways, he didn't need to do the Anthony Davis multiple dribbles between his legs feeding into each shot. He simplified it down to a handful of moves, a little face up banker,

little hook shots here, drop steps there. He incredibly simplified his game and made it based on power and fundamentals, and nobody could nobody, nobody could mess with him as

a result of that. And so I think a lot of times people view simplifying the game as a weakness, you know, like like uh uh, going with rudimentary, more dependable, fundamental skills as a weakness, when in reality, it is a player making a conscious decision to simplify his game to try to impact winning within within his team concept.

There are players out there, guys like Kyrie Irving, you know, guys like Devin Booker, where their physical tools aren't really what they need to be to have a rudimentary basic approach to the game. They have to use smoke in mirrors, they have to use misdirection, they have to use change of pace and counters on top of counters on top of counters to get to their spots because otherwise they wouldn't be able to get shots off. That that's by necessity,

that's completely different. But at the end of the day, every single player, their impact on winning is a combination of their physical tools, their skill set, and their basketball i Q. And if you're strong and two of those areas in week and one, regardless of what it is, you'll be fine. But you've got to be strong in other areas to compensate. If you don't have great physical tools,

you better be incredibly smart and incredibly skilled. If you don't have a great basketball i Q, you better have great physical tools, and you better be able to put the ball in the basket because you're gonna become a weaponized score in your offense, and and and so on and so. For Lebron is more like a really great physical tools and really great i Q kind of guy.

And he's somewhat weak in the in the skill set area, but he has enough there and he's so good in the other two areas that he's maybe the best basketball player ever. But at the end of the day, you

have to have some combination of those things. And it would be a complete this last thing, I'll say this, it would be a complete waste of your honest's time to go into this summer and be like, I am going to try to replicate everything that Devin Booker did in that NBA Finals, because it would take him years to develop that skill set, and it would be he doesn't need to get as much separation as Devin Booker. Devin Booker needs to get so much separation to get

that shot up. Your honest would be better off taking almost a Tim duncan ESQ approach, working on a handful of really rudimentary uh post moves, midpost moves that he will be able to get off without much separation. That can be really dependable moves for him. And getting caught up in the aesthetics of things just means you don't have your priorities straight and you sure you sure as hell shouldn't be trying to impress the Rashad phillips Is of the world. That's not that that's not gonna help

you win basketball games. You need to figure out how you can win within your team concept. Yeah, and I feel like I don't even want to use names like Tim Duncan Clay Thompson, like that's to me should be obvious. You throw Tim Duncan anywhere in the world, he's gonna dominate. You throw Clay Thompson anywhere in the world, you can dominant.

But you can even go at the lesser dudes. Like I think there is a conversation that we have there are players who can't translate that street kind of game to the NBA, right, We've we've seen that a lot where players really struggle or even if they do translate, they're not the star that they were because, like if you look in the G League, there's a lot of guys who average in college or whatever, and they can't translate that into a role because in the league, you

already have thirty points scores, right, Alex Cruso talks about this a lot um. A lot of guys don't know the role they're applying for. Like they go into the G League and think they're gonna be the score went in. To be honest, every team has a score ready to be looking for guys to do other things, as Cruso if he wants, he can go at any pickup game in the world and go drop thirty five forty because he's Alex Caruso is playing the damn NBA. Those guys

can do that. Like that's where I'm like, that's where it's so tough for me. I think that Tim Duncan stuff is obvious, Clay Thompson stuff is obvious. Those guys obviously are lesser in the role. These uses are all stars in the best world in the world, best league in the world. But you go to any guy Quinn Cook, you would dominate like this Hooper basketball kind of conversation.

I think it's true there are players who can translate it, but I think once you have a long NBA career, like Lou Williams is a guy that people think about a lot. Didn't really have to change this game that much, but he's still like you throw Williams and Lou Williams is both a basketball player and hooper to me because he can do both. Like he's obviously had a fifteen year career. You don't get a fifteen year career. You can't play basketball. But he's a guy that used Jamal

Crawford as well. Um a guy who's had a fifteen year career as a sixth man. You think coaches are going to play a dude that can't that doesn't know basketball for who's one multiple six man in the Year awards. That that's where it just doesn't compute for me. These guys are amazing. Go go to Envy a NBA game and go watch the fifteenth man shoot. He's not gonna miss, like he doesn't do does not miss when you watch

him in warm up. So it's just it's funny. When I see the conversation, I think, I think you're right. We don't get these dudes enough credit for just how good they are. There in the one percent of the one percent of the one percent of what they do. And um, yeah, that that's kind of where I'm at with this conversation. Yeah, it was like, let's use John Stockton as an example, you know, in the New League. This was one of the things that got brought up.

You know. Yeah, Uh, my guess is that John Stockton could face up with some defender in the rear league and do some variation of step backs off the dribble shots and make a decent percentage of him off the dribble. But one of the big reasons why he didn't do much of that in the NBA is because in the NBA, going against NBA guard defenders, guys like Gary Payton, he wasn't really able to get those types of shots off, and so he turned his he used screens to get

an advantage, you know what I mean. And for the record, there's pride doesn't amount to anything on the scoreboard. Okay, if I'm if I'm in a matchup with a guy like there's a guy here in town, his name is Brian, who is one of the best perimeter defenders that I've ever played against. And I see him every once in a while, and when he comes up against me. I have two options. I can either, out of pride, try to score on the guy, which you know, I can usually get to my spot and get to some kind

of jump shots. Some days I make them, some days I don't. But at the end of the day, why if I'm trying to win the game, why am I trying to isolate Brian. Why don't I get a screen involved and try to get either working in some sort of screen and roll action or get a different defender on me. Because all I really care about is winning, So why don't I get an advantage somewhere else on

the floor. John Stockton would probably go up to the Drew League and think, Okay, I'm going to get into screen and roll with this this random super athletic center that's on my team that I can throw lobs too, and I'm gonna get my defender on my backside instead of playing him in isolation, and I'm gonna either shoot floaters or layups at the rim, or throw passes to the big man or if they rotate out to shooters.

Like his approach to the game is is built around this idea that he has a specific skill set and he can make that impact basketball games in this specific way, and that specific way is going to be different than the way Kyrie Irving would use his skill set to impact the game. And and and that preference there turned into this like basketball players versus hoopers thing, which is so stupid to me and insulting honestly to what those

guys do. And so the real question is is it's like with that spectrum that we talked about with basketball i Q skill set and phizic goal tools, that's how you really identify these players, is you know, like I would say that Janice, even like when we're ranking players at the end of the season, you're gonna have players who who kind of gravitate to his play style, who

think he's the best player in the league. You know, me, I tend to prioritize, you know, that playmaking, basketball i Q shot making a little bit more than other people do. So I'm gonna gravitate problem. I'm probably gonna put him forth behind Steph Katie and Lebron because I think those guys and what they provide in the other areas of the game is a little bit more impactful. But we

can argue that all day long. You know what your preferences if you value physical dominance, or if you value shot making, or if you value skill, but none of those is inherently or proven to be better than the other. They're all in uh. Samuis Fondiere from Warriors Twitter always talks about this. Like every star, it just comes down

to their supporting cast. Like if you gave Kevin Durant the perfect list of of of co of of role players that matches skill set perfectly, but I put Lebron with a mismatched skill set of role players that doesn't really compliment him super well, Katie's team might win even if there's no other stars on either team, and vice versa. Of I give Lebron a boatload of shooters who can defend, and he's just driving and kicking and driving to the

basket all day long. But Kevin Durant is playing with a group of players that doesn't necessarily match his skill set. Lebron is gonna win that matchup. At the at the end of the day, you know your individual skill set, and whether or not you win usually has a lot more to do with what's around you than with what you're doing. And I think I think this last couple of years has been such a great example of that because we've seen Kevin Durant lose to Janice, and I

think Kevin Durant was a better player. We saw Lebron beat Steph in the playing game, and Lebron wasn't even very good in that game. Steph was out of this world. But the Lakers were more physically imposing and and dialed in defensive team who eventually wore them down and and made some big shots late and they won. Like basketball, we have to get away from this mono imano aspect of basketball because we've come too far in that direction.

You know, we we kind of a back and forth, and we've gone too far into over analyzing what one guy does when we're watching these games, and it's so obviously dependent on the five man unit and how they compliment each other and how they compliment their star. Because there's a version of this series where Devin Booker looks like the best player because everything compliments him. Maybe he makes another big shot in Game four and they win

the series in five. You might have guys sitting here going, Devin Booker is better than you, Honese, you know what I mean? Like that, that's that's kind of the way this discourse goes. And so I I just get frustrated with it because I don't think. I don't think from Hooper's to like ra Stoan Phillips is a basketball player, that dude he was that that I retweeted this morning

that he's talking to dude's a basketball player. Those two guys should have more respect for what these guys do to build their skill set to fit within a championship concept. And it is so deeply disrespectful for them to to undercut that or to overly simplify that, to overly simplify Clay Thompson into a role player when he's a role player by design and he could go to your favorite team and drop twenty seven to night if he wanted to,

you know what I mean. And I just think I hope that we can delineate between the uh that kind of type of discourse and real basketball discourse. No for sure, And again, like dunking on that is like that the rim is lowered so low that like I feel like it's very easy to to dunk on. But like my only issue was because Kendrick Perkins kind of brought this up. Who I think it's a lot more ship than he should.

I think he's good on TV and everything, but like he was talking about his kind of thing of Hooper versus basketball player, was Hooper was a guy who loves to hoop, right, So brought up Kevin Durant, brought up JR. Smith, Um, brought up Jamal Crawford. These guys that go whop in these summer league runs and stuff like that all summer.

And to me, just because like you don't have like a dribble pull up, or if you're not on TV all the time, doesn't mean you don't love to go hoop, Like I feel like most of these Obviously there's levels. I don't think everyone loves it the same. But I think when you reach the NBA, like you have to have some sort of love for the game at least

because the competition is too high. Like love for the game is a baseline, Like that's a starting point, Like you can't even get to where you were even use an example where like a role player gets too without some kind of love because of the work that it takes. Right, it's a lot of hard work to get to even become a role player in the NBA. Become a three and D wing. The amount of shots you have to take per day, the amount of whatever you have to

do to become a role player. That work is so much that, like, I feel like your love for the game has to be at some kind of baseline level. Like for me, I don't hear dribble pull up shots. I know my role. When I play a pickup game, I like to stay in the corner. I like to take catch and shoot. I play defense. I know my role. Doesn't mean I don't love to who but I love to go play runs. Just because I can't hear dribble pull up doesn't mean that I don't love like the game. Like,

and that's where I know. They kept saying that hooper versus basketball player isn't you know, there's nothing wrong with either, But like calling Lebron a basketball player and not a hooper just has a negative connotation to it. It just has a yeah, so it's very exactly, but like they

kept saying, there's nothing wrong with either. But it's just that's Lebron freaking James, Like, how is he not he's playing basketball at thirty six with all the money in the world, does not need to play could could stop playing tomorrow when I have money for a hundreds of generations, How could that man not love to play basketball? Like that's the That's the part to me which is just so strange about the conversation where it's like that that

doesn't make any sense. Like I think there's a legitimate conversation between guys who play a really fundamental role and guys who kill it at the runs and guys who can't translate that to the NBA. I think that's a conversation, like how do we get guys who averaged forty in the Drew League to get into the NBA and make play a role into it. That's a real condo to have.

This is just I don't know what to do with this conversation, Like this is putting Clay Compson Lebron James, separating them saying they couldn't do what these dudes who are hoopers do is is just false to me. Yeah, agree, And I loved what you said about how people's love of the game can manifest in different ways. I feel

the same way about competitiveness. Like people always try to draw this line between Lebron and Kobe and MJ as a competitor, and just because it looks different, like Lebron and m J and Kobe are kind of assholes who are like super mean, muggy, they and and and you know, demonstrative with their with their seeming hatred towards the competition, whereas Lebron is more boisterous and and jovial and happy

and and and positive looking. But at the same time, it's like Lebron is freakishly competitive, like he's every bit as competitive as those guys, you know how, like you said, you know, because he's wanted so much like competitive people have people that are that competitive. It's it requires that to achieve a level of success in the NBA and the same and the same goes for for the love

of the game. Like you know, uh, I happened to be the type of guy that, like, I love basketball in a way to where I no, no pickup run is beneath me. Like all I've played in pick up games with all NBA players before at the University of Arizona, where I've got you know, seven or eight NBA players in the in the on the court, and I play a certain way and and I'm excited and I'm energetic in that environment. But then I'll go to you know, on a randy Like last night, I went to an

l A Fitness. I haven't gone to an l A Fitness in in months, and I just popped into an l A Fitness and I was playing against you know, like Mike Dickerson was there, he played in the NBA. But most of the guys there were like dudes who were lifting weights, who walked into the gym and and can barely dribble with their up But I had a lot of fun because I love the game in a way to where that runs not beneath me, like I love I love playing regardless of the setting. And but

then you have guys that come out of Tussan. There's a handful of guys Attitusson that have played professionally overseaser in the NBA. And and you know, there's a guy named Bryce Cotton who has played in the played in

the NBA. He has been a multiple time m v P of the NBL out in Australia, And like, I never see that guy around and he and he lives here in the offseason because when he comes home, like he just doesn't like playing pick up, so I'll like, he will just go do individual workouts, and I'll see him maybe once every two or three years at a pick up run. But he's not He doesn't really show up much. And and it's not because he doesn't love the game. It's just because that's the way that he

chooses to approach the game. He he loves to work individually. He views pick up as beneath him for whatever reason, and and that's the way that he prefers to approach the game. And and everyone is is different. Some people love Some people love basketball but don't like watching the NBA. Some people like I love basketball, I don't like watching college hoops because college hoops is so the level of skill versus the level of defense and athleticism is out

of balance. And so everyone is so athletic and so dialed in defensively, but the shot king isn't there. So the games are just boring to me. There's not enough shot making, there's not enough ability to create open shots for teammates. It's kind of jankie to me. So I will watch college shops, but I'm I'm not a huge fan of watching college hoopes. It doesn't mean I don't love basketball. And so yeah, I agree with you. It just it just bothers me everyone, everyone. You know. Uh,

this last thing I'll say about it. Pete in his podcast about two weeks ago, he did one where he talked about his his rise in NBA media and how he got to where he was, and same thing for Mike Trudell and and one of the things yeah, awesome show.

And one of the things that Pete said was like, you know, I I think it's so important are up and coming people who are trying to succeed in this business two make sure that their individual relationship with basketball is exposed in the show, because it's that your genuine love for basketball, You're genuine relationship with basketball will reflect with more passion then if you had an artificial approach or you were trying to pretend to be something you're not.

You know, That's why I think it's so important for you and I as we do this, not to try to become what someone else does. But I'm going to talk about basketball the way I like to talk about basketball, and you're going to do the same, and that will naturally manifest in in a more entertaining product because we're gonna give a shit about what we're saying. And it's not going to be a skip bayless artificial approach to things.

It's going to be genuine. And I think I think that it's important to acknowledge that we can all have a different approach in that regard and that it doesn't mean we don't love the game exactly. And I think that's the thing that like I wish more people like because I get d MS as well, and people ask me, you know, like how do you grow on you know,

Twitter or whatever, how do you get a base? And I always say, like, you first have to first enjoy what you're like putting out your contact that you put out you should at least enjoy it, um, And then uh go with like be natural with this, shouldn't be for shouldn't be something that you're trying to create out things like you're not trying to be fake. UM. Do stuff that you enjoy and people will naturally gravitate UM to that. And I think one thing that people are

uncomfortable with is disagreeing. And I think it's okay we can disagree um as long as you have a stance behind it that you can support. And I have a stance behind it that I can support. We can disagree, like you could see it like, Okay, the game went this way. I actual say the game went that way if our reasonings, that's fine. I think that's the part

that people have trouble with this, like disagreeing. Ian would disagree, and then it's okay, like it's fine, it's basketball, it's not you know, when we disagree, we don't have to then move to personal attacks, which I see a lot on the timeline. It's very weird. Two people will be talking about basketball and all of a sudden it becomes personal, like this is basketball. It's supposed to be fun. I think we lose that sometimes it's supposed to be enjoyable.

That's the whole point of this, Um, This is all supposed to be an enjoyable thing. So I think that's that's important. I think you're right. We both go into it with our own kind of views, and that's the whole point of this. We all have our own relationship with the game. However, we got to it, UM, and we're passionate about it. And I think that shows UM and all the people on Twitter mostly are have a passion towards it in some way. No matter how they

got there. And I think that's something to remember. But yeah, I agree with that, And no matter what you say, someone's going to disagree, you know, like like when you and I do our postseason podcast where we do you know, player rankings and things along those lines, Like you know, you and I are going to put a great deal of thought into it, and we're gonna come up with lists that we believe in, and no matter what someone's gonna think it's insane, Like I'm not gonna put you

honest number one, even if he drops forty seven points tonight and wins the game, I'm not gonna put him number one because I just don't think he's the best basketball player in the world. Um, that doesn't mean I disrespect him. I think he's in the top tier of stars. I've been incredibly impressed by what he's done in this playoff run. Like I think he's put a discernible gap between him and someone like James Harden, which is was

something that was more of a debate last year. You know, I I but when I when when that comes out, there will be there will likely be somebody in our mention saying means stuff, you know, that's just the natural progression of things, and it's unfortunate because it would be ridiculous if all of us just carried the same opinion on this kind of stuff, you know, Like the group that I always have run ins with his Golden State Warriors Twitter, they are awful to me, like awful, awful,

awful to me, And it's hilarious because I'm I think Steph is one of the ten best players ever. I think he has been no lower than the third best player in the league for the last seven years. Um, I'll probably rank him second or third this year despite missing the playoffs, and in general, I think he's one of my favorite players. I love his leadership style, I love Clay Thompson. I value with Draymond Green does I'm

Tucson on local, so Steve Kerr is one of my favorites. Like, I am a Warriors fan in a lot of ways, and they're awful, awful, awful to me because I don't put stuff above Lebron And it's just it's just such a ridiculous, uh like phenomenon on basketball Twitter. Yeah, for sure, I'm blocked by like half of Clippers Twitter for some reason. Not a lot of Celtics fans as well. It's fine that I've never interacted with and that's just how it goes, and that's that's okay. But um, yeah, I've try to

limit the amount of like quote tweet dunks. Like when I first started, I used to do that a lot, and now I try to at least limit that a little bit to China, not um try to get on people that way. But yeah, that's just how it goes. That's how Twitter is, um, and that's just how we we conversate now. I guess yeah. I I have been trying hard to cut back on that too. And then I and then I tweeted that thing the other day about RCLE and I was like afterwards, I was like,

why do I even do this anymore? Like, come on, Jayson, grow up? You turned dirty this year. Uh. Anyway, Uh, that's all we gotta think for today, unless you have anything that you want to add. Alright, thank you, thank you guys so much for tuning in and listening with us. I'm gonna release the podcast version here shortly. Um, that episode sixty five that was missing, I tracked it down. You have to search for it individually for whatever reason.

But if you just search stated the Lakers episode sixty five, it will pop up. Um. We will be back either tomorrow morning or or Thursday morning, depending and probably Thursday is my guest. UM. But thank you guys as usual for your support. Rojs. I hope you have a good day and I will see you in a couple of days. Thanks. Everyone appreciate it.