Episode 6: Warriors Offseason and Old Hoop Stories with Justin Grant

pretty good? Man? How you doing? I'm doing well. So before we get started, I wanted you to give like just a quick, little fifteen second rapid resume about where you played and what your basketball background is, and then we'll get started. Cool. Um, I played at clarent University. It's a small division to school, UM like an ours out of Pittsburgh Upper Wes np A. Played there all

four years. UM, had a decent career. UM played against some pretty high level guys over my course of my time there, and then after that shortly started playing like semi professional lubly and on the DC Maryland area and then pretty much doing that ever since. That's awesome, man. Um. Yeah, So for those of you don't know me, similar story, I played an A I A I played junior college up in Utah. Was a real late bloomer. I started

playing when I was twenty and uh. I had a couple of seasons at DUCO and then I played in the n E I A and then same thing. I played at a couple of different semi professional things, and I was supposed to go play in the league in India, had a contract and everything, and then that league folded. And then at that point my wife was like, it's

time to hang him up. So now I just do it for fun and and play on the local scene, and I'm kind of enjoying it, although I always you know, it's always hard, and I know, you know what this is like. It's always hard to not just drop everything and try to do it again. But yeah, you gotta find a way to be a grown up, you know

what I mean. Um So, today we're gonna primarily focus on on the Warriors and this offseason, which I think is gonna be one of the more pivotal off seasons in their franchise history, mainly just because the difference between them going on another run of contention here or kind of disappearing into the middle of the Western Conference is gonna entirely depend on how they put pieces around their

core three guys. And my my initial take on that is gonna entirely depend on one of my overarching basketball ideologies. Everybody's got their overarching basketball ideologies that shape most of their opinions, and one of my big ones is quite simply that really young basketball players don't know how to win. And my favorite example of this is, you know, I live in Tucson, Arizona, which is where the University of Arizona is, and they consistently, every single year have one

of the best recruiting classes in the country. They constantly get top five or five star recruits, top ten recruits in the country that come through this school. And then we lose. We lose early and often in the in the tournament, and we and the main reason for that is is there's a huge difference between projecting someone's potential and projecting their current impact on winning right now. And there are a lot of guys that have come through

this school. Aaron Gordon's a great example, a guy like Stanley Johnson who kind of struggled understanding how to contribute in a winning environment at Arizona, who then went on to have much more success in the NBA. Aaron Gordon is the best example you can think of someone like that. But the main reason for that is I think that every like young player is primarily focused on kind of themselves, and when they go to the gym and when they work on their game, they're primarily focused on what they

can do to be better individually. And then every single player kind of twists and change like kind of transitions into a phase of their career where they primarily focus on the scoreboard and what it takes to impact winning,

especially within the team construct. And some people make that change faster than others, but everybody is going to have to make that change, and almost never will you find a player that's that young that already knows how to contribute at that level and like the you know, there are a couple of examples in NBA history of young guys who have done winning early, like John Morant and

Donovan Mitchell. Dwyane Wade's even a great example, but the huge differences they were drafted into a situation where they were supposed to be the best player on their team, and more importantly, they were surrounded by veteran players who

did all of that dirty work for them. Dwyane Wade played with Alonzo Mourning and James Posey and Antoine Walker, and you know, all of these guys who were able to do all of that heavy lifting mentally for him so that they could just shoot Dwyane Wayne at a Dwyane Wade out of a cannon to be a wrecking ball and understand that all of the fine details of ning they could take care of, and exact same thing

with Donovan Mitchell. He played with some of the smartest players in the game like Ricky Rubio, Joe Ingles and Rudy Gobert and Jay Crowder, guys like that. So in my opinion, you know, when we're shaping this forward, even when you look at the players in this draft that are you know, kind of advertised as guys who can be right away type of winners like that Denny Avija, I think, is the main one that a lot of

Warriors fans bring up. Even with the guy like that, in my opinion, just an average role player, a guy like Jeff Green would impact winning more right now and over the next couple of years than he could. And the main reason for that is if you look at

Jeff Green, he's made that transition. If you look at two thousand eighteen with the Calves, he understood mentally that his peak as a winner was as a guy who ran in transition, got easy layups and dunks, knockdown open threes as as best as he could, made simple plays that it was, and defended on the other end of

the flour. And so from that standpoint, if I am a Warriors fan, I think you have to trade the pick, and I think you have to just understand that it's gonna hurt in the future potentially to see whoever this kid is end up being a better player than whoever you got, but understand that within this tight little two or three year window where you plan on contending, that whoever you got is going to bring more to the table within the scope of winning. If that makes sense, Yeah,

for sure, And I definitely agree. And I wouldn't necessarily trade the pick for like someone like a Green, but definitely like initially think, hey, like, let's see what we can we can get, maybe like trade down for a player and a pick um for someone that's that's more ready to contribute to winning, to winning right away, and you can still get a young guy that you can possibly groom that can help you farther down the line or even play spot minutes in the playoffs now and

kind of help you get to where you want to go. Yeah, and like and for sure you can do a lot better than Jeff Green with that pick. I just think that Jeff Green is a great example of the fact that that veteran player that understands in his finite role that he's gonna have on this team what they're going to be asking him to do, because they're not going

to be asking much of him. If you look at what that team already has on paper, you've got like four starters at thirty five plus minutes a night completely taken up. So you're basically looking for rim running and defense from your center position, and you're looking for backup playmaking and spot up shooting and things along those lines.

And so from that standpoint, um like, there's absolutely no way in my opinion, that you can get as much quality out of drafting, even at high as high at number as number two as you could um looking elsewhere and trying to just make the most what of what

there is. And I think your example is great. That's trading down and getting you know, some kind of mid level veteran role player and then understanding that if I pick at seventeen or twenty two, that guy has just about the same amount of chances impacting winning this season as number two, because like, do you think James Wiseman can go head to head with Anthony Davis in a

playoff series right now? And probably in in five years probably, but right now I have a feeling that that matchup is just going to be too much for him mentally to understand the little things he'd have to do to match Anthony Davis's impact. And uh So, from that standpoint, like, I think that that's where where that uh decision has to be based on. So the main guys that have been floated around for the Warriors at number two are killing and his Anthony Edwards, LaMelo Ball, this Danny Avija guy,

and then James Wiseman. And I suppose, and this is my next question for you, is if you had to pick, let's say there's no trade available or nothing that is other than a certain amount of value that Bob Meyers would be willing to accet, which one of those guys would you have if you had to pick one. Um, I'd probably say I'd take Wiseman right now, probably because like the center is probably our weakest position at the moment.

And his measurables are like, oh, they jump off the paper for you, you know what I mean, Like they just read the other day. He has like a nine six standing reach something like that. Yeah, it's like he has observed measurables. He's a freak athlete. He has a

lot of size, which were which we're lacking inside. And even though he can't necessarily match up with that guy like Anthony Davis like mentally, yet at at least he has like the physical attributes to to bank with some of the bigger centers or some of the some of the guys with size that we're going to see in the Western Conference, like a Yo kids or even like um, whether or not Dwhite comes back to the Lakers, but

somebody like a Dwight or whatever the case may be. UM, And I think, as you said, like younger guys coming in, they typically think like me, me, me, like how can I improve myself? Um, and all those other guys you name are either wings of guards, which is it's even going to be more towards that I want to develop my own game. Let's see how many points like an

average wherever these may be. Whereas Wiseman, I think a big might be easier to convince to like buy an indefensive end early on in his career rather than focus on like how many points he's scoring and stuff like that. That makes sense, That's actually a really good point, Like I think the Wiseman has the best capability of potentially

accepting that smaller role. One of my favorite things about this year's Laker team was the fact that every single one of their role players had a really small role. And when you give a limited player a very small role, it's much easier for them to, you know, excel in that role than it is when you're asking them to do a lot. And I agree, like if you draft someone like Anthony Edwards, if you draft someone like Lamella Ball, you're asking them to come in and playmate, which at

this level is arguably the toughest skill. It's arguably the hardest thing to do from a decision making standpoint, Like even when you watch young players. Now, you know, when you watch Killie and Hayes next year or Lamella Ball, you're gonna see them have two or three possessions in a row where they make a good play and then they're gonna go, you know, right off and to do something stupid, because that's just the natural thing that happens

when you're dealing with that type of young player. And then also, I think with Wiseman, you have the best capability I think of potentially flipping him at the trade deadline if you had to um to to some team out there that has, you know, like the good The best example of someone like this would be maybe a team like the Pistons who foolishly convinces themselves that, you know, we can maybe compete in the East with a healthy Blake Griffin, and then they get out there and they

start getting their ass kicked and pretty quickly there you know, seven and twenty two, and it's like, okay, it's time to rebuild. Why don't we go after Wiseman. Why don't we go after someone like that? And um that that I think Wiseman gives you the best chance of flipping

him if you need to. But like, so, let's let's talk about the Warrior's needs, because you know, if you look at the two thousand sixteen Warriors, which were arguably one of the top three or four teams ever and uh arguably I'm never gonna allow this to be say stated as act, but arguably, had they stayed healthy, they would have won the championship that year. Um, they were built on the Steph Curry offensive formula of you know, drawing attention and players kind of feeding off of the

attention he draws. And then Clay Thompson, who was without a doubt a better player now than he was in two thousand and sixteen, as long as his knee can hold up. But Clay is weirdly, you know, just Clay is just kind of a physical freak in that sense, So I think he had cans of coming back. Uh, yeah, exactly.

And then you've got Andrew Wiggins, who I don't think that much of him, and I know you don't, and I know most people don't, but it is completely reasonable to think that he could be Harrison Barnes, you know, when you look at what they were asking Harrison Barnes to do in that role. So there is a very clear like the pathway you can follow mentally to see

how this team can compete. But one of the most important things about that roster was the fact that when they downsized, they had a wing that could guard Biggs in Andrea adult yep. And then they and then they had a bench full of really really savvy veteran players in Andrew Barbosa and and Sean Livingston and all those guys.

So the key there is, like to follow that mold you need to look for because I don't know, a lot of people talk about bo Get, and Boget, in my opinion, was not as important on that team is portrayed. He only played, I think, if I'm not mistaken, like ten minutes a game towards the end of that playoff run. Uh,

he was not all that involved. It primarily to me comes down to finding a really big win so that you can downsize, and then finding just smart basketball players that can make decisions in four on threes, in three on two's, off of Steph Curry double teams. If that

makes sense. Where do you land on that? I'm right there with you, Like you said, Um, the main thing that I that I remember from those Warriors teams, like prior to Katie's arrival, I mean even with Katie's that with Katie there is that soil as the Lakers operated this year, where they just had, like you said, a bunch of many roles that people can people can feel, and they were versatile as far as like they had size that they wanted to go big and they can

go big, and they if they wanted to go small, which they did mostly because teams at that time really couldn't handle it, they went small, but they had guys that can guard. They had dream On and and Iggy and Harrison Hooping guard up. So I think right and Clay can guard up. So it's like if they really

never really gave up a size even when going down. UM, So I think that definitely should be a priority getting like bigger wings up and guard um if like Lebron goes to before or something like that, or they put eight at the five or colados um to the to the wherever the case maybe um they need to have that versatility to be able to mass teams size wise, and as well as like i Q and skill has a follow as well, because you can't just mass team with size and then you just don't have any shooting

or whatever the case may be. So I think, yeah, definitely defense and like versatilities should be their primary leg focus. Yeah, and there are a couple of players who fit that mold because like so, Andre Godalo is about strength, like that dude was just unbelievably strong for a player who played that position. Um, the other players that I thought that kind of fit potential, this potential role. One of my favorites was Wesley Matthews, and secretly I'm hoping the

Lakers get him. But Wesley Matthews, it is a player who is undersized, if I'm not mistaken, He's only like six five or six four. But Wesley Matthews is His defensive principles are based on getting super low and uh like getting up underneath guys and forcing them to shoot

over the top with his ridiculous lateral quickness. So a player like that is what would allow you because you gotta think, everything to me with the Warriors has to be framed through what their late round playoff matchups would be, which in this case is in all in all likelihood, they're gonna have to go through both the clippers of the Lakers, or at least the one who won in

that matchup. So from that standpoint, at any given moment, they're gonna be dealing with either two massive front court players and Anthony Davis and Lebron, or dealing with uh two extremely versatile wings in Paul George and and Kawhi Leonard. And a guy like Wesley Matthews is an example of a player who you could probably get with your mid level exception, who would at least make those guys shoot

over the top. Because even with Lebron, if you watch in both of their matchups this year, particularly even when they won in l A, Wesley Matthews was forcing Lebron into fadeaways and forcing him into taking shots away from the basket. The only time he ever really got to the rim on him was in pick and roll when they were using Jail McGee to like kind of like run him out of the lane and then like basically

throw blocks for Lebron in isolation. He was forcing him to shoot over the top, which is really all you can ask for from a player, especially at that at that pay level. The other guys that have been tossed around, Robert Covington, Uh, Jeff Green, there's uh the older Holiday

brother justin Hall Day, guys like that. But I don't think like I worry about guys like Robert Covington and Justin Holiday being a little too skinny because the problem is with like again, what makes that work is Draymond Green's strength in Andreago Dollar's strength and their ability to match up with the size. And so from that standpoint, I just don't see uh getting it. Like there's an obsession with wings in today's NBA, this idea that you

need to get his wings as you can get. But the reality is is I think it's more versatile size and size can be distributed in many different ways. Like I played a lot bigger than my position in college because I wait two pounds, so I was able to guard bigger players. And when you look at like even this Houston Rockets team this year this past year, everybody complained about how short they were because even their wings were short, But every single player on that team was

strong and you couldn't just back them down. And from that same point, I think that would be the big one because even with guys like Clay and Steph and Andrew Wiggins, they're little thin, and that physical wearing and that physical wear and tear would be the big thing that I would look out for with them. I definitely agree. I think another guy's name has been floated around as

they like Jake Crowder. Um he set saying like mold. Yeah, so if they if they can find a way to land a guy like him, that would be that would be huge as well. So let's let's uh, let's focus on a hypothetical scenario where the Warriors get Let's say they get They're like they're dream offseason, Okay, they they trade number two and they get a high quality center and another pick, like let's say they trade him to

who's it that as Capellas at Washington. Let's say they get like Capella and you know, an a late second or late first round pick or something like that, just a league average center. And let's say that they get Jay Crowder And let's say they get Wesley Matthews and they are structured, let's just say, comparable to the two thousand sixteen Warriors. Not quite as good, but comparable, and

they end up cruising through the season. And let's say the Lakers also add Vanilla Gallinari some quality piece with that, because I think that needs to be factored in the Lakers. I can't say for sure who they're going to get, but it is in mind they're going to be there. They're gonna get somebody. They're gonna get somebody. And so from that standpoint, what do you think a Warriors Lakers series in that hypothetical would look like? Who would you

pick and why? Um, let's say, okay, both teams have like a great off season. I'd say it's a toss up. I really don't know, because I think so much rides on UM. One. Is Lebron gonna full further time again and just be Lebron for another post season? I think that's like huge. If he is, then that obviously gives

them like a great chance. I would probably give them the slighter edge in that in that scenario, and if Anthony Davis becomes a better like playmaker out of the post from teams Dublin, because in that case, even if we do get like an average level center, they're probably gonna have to double and even if they put Draymond and they're gonna have the double amount of posts and try to take him out of the game, similar to how like um Miami was doing just like not lett

him get touches and just kind of forced the ball his hand in the post. Um. So I would definitely say it's a toss up. I would say it comes down to the Warrior's ability to get those stops. Because even if we even though we saw the Lakers defend at extremely high level throughout the post season this past season, they rotate well, they close out on shooters, they run

out of the mind. Um. But we saw all in the twenty nineteen playoffs with Toronto how well they defended, and even even then the Warriors kind of gave them some issues. We just didn't have enough guys that hit shots. UM. So I don't think offense is gonna be a problem for for a really euty team. It just comes down

to who gets the most stops. And at that point, if if we bring in a guy like if we're bringing Jay crowder and and Wesley Matthews and guys would really help on that in um, I can't really say the Lakers would be that much more dominant defensively to kind of swing it heavily in their favor. And I can't say the same thing for the wars either. UM. I guess the by the bias and me will being

like Warriors in seven or something. But but yeah, I would say i'd say to Tassa honestly, Um, And that's that's like the beauty of that's kind of that's kind of what we want to like not knowing necessarily who was going to win, Um And Yeah, that's that's where Austin that. Yeah, So I mean we're both biased, So we're both gonna be looking at this in a particular way that HUM is going to favor our particular side. My case for the Lakers being a pretty significant favorite.

There is the fact that I do believe that styles make fights and the big believer in playoff matchups in the way that they can swing series. Um, there's so many examples of it throughout NBA history. We're a better team throughout the regular season loses in the playoffs because

of the way the things the matchups work out. The best example of that is that two thousand eight or two thousand nine Calves team that lost to the Magic because they didn't have their centers were old and slow and couldn't stay with Dwight Howard and their guards were smaller and UH and Orlando brought this unique challenge to the table in the form of these really tall perimeter players in Richard Lewis and UH a Hedo Turker Glue, who were just too big for the smaller perimeter players

in UH with with Cleveland and Guard and it ended up literally swinging a series even though Lebron was far and away the best player on the floor every single game, just because that's the way that playoff series worked. And you know, I've always been worried about the Clippers for the Lakers, and I all, I do think that the Lakers would have won against the Clippers. I think it would have been really close. I think it would have gone six or seven games, and the games would have

been super competitive. And the main reasoning behind that is the idea that uh like, with these specific playing styles and roster constructions, the Clippers were built to beat the Lakers in the sense that they they had at least enough big, strong wings to force Santhony Davis to shoot over the top. They had all sorts of bodies that throw out Lebron, and the Laker defense, which was built on the Laker defense, was under size. It's one of the big things that people forget, like a very Bradley

was small. Danny Green, who was basically playing small forward for them, was pretty small for that position. He's like six six. You know, he's not a really overly large player. You know, Alex Crusoe is only like six five, and you know, Region Rondo is small and and KCP is smaller, he's only like six four. So like all of these guy eyes are are you know, undersize relatively at their position. So they had to build their defensive scheme to match

that personnel. So what they were doing was essentially having uh, every single one of those guards error on the side of chasing guys off the three point line and ball pressure getting up into people's shirts, understanding that, uh it will force them into the size and and understanding that they're there. They can make up for the weakness of their size by making people drive into their taller players that they do have on the court in the form

of Lebron Anthony Davis in their centers. And so what the Clippers brought to the table that was a challenge for that was lou Williams was so remarkably good at those little floating jump shots and little tear drops and things and that ten to fifteen foot range, and he was so good at drawing fouls on bigs and then Kawhi Leonard was so good operating out of the mid range as a score that when they got the switches

they want it. With Kauai, they were getting super high quality shots against the Laker defense at that mid range area. And then with Lou Williams when they put him in pick and roll, he was killing the Lakers centers and they only really basically forced them to put a d

at the five. And so from that standpoint, like when I look at a potential Warriors UH Lakers matchup, what would worry me for the Warriors is that the idea of doubling Steph off of pick and rolls, of double like chasing him off the three point line, forcing him to drive to the basket and make plays is kind of the whole design of their defense. It's kind of

the entire it's their entire winning formula. And so from that standpoint, like they don't necessarily have a guy that can kill the smaller Laker guards and mismatches, um, the Lakers would always be able to go small, so that the figs that Steph could attack would have to be Braun and Anthony Davis, and then you know, but I think it would basically come down to the Warrior role players, relying on guys like Andrew Wiggins and all of these future role players to be named later making a ton

of shots as the Lakers are scrambling and trapping out out of staff, out of pick and roll, and then Steph would have to just make an unbelievable amount of shots in that midrange area, like kind of like Lou Williams just head of steam coming down off of a pick and roll um or beating someone off the dribble who's overplaying the shot in him just making a huge amount of floaters and scoop shots and all that kind of stuff, And so that that I do think that

you know, you have to understand. Like I I am a Steph fan. I think he's the second best player in the league right now. I'm a huge believer in what he does offensively. I think he's a much better player than Kawhi Leonard. But I just think that this particular matchup kind of plays into the Lakers hands in the sense that that their scheme there, the way that they're constructed, is kind of a scheme that theoretically could give the Warriors some issues. If that makes sense, Oh yeah,

for sure. And I think I think it's kind of like it's similar on the on the opposite end as well, where I mean Karr has seen Lebron in the playoffs for four times. I pretty sure we've seen Anton Davis twice now. Obviously Anthony Davis is a much better player now um and Lebron and even in some ways it's even better than he was now, which is ridiculous. But but then they've always kind of like scheme to keep

them away from the basket as much as possible. Obviously, the personnel then was a little bit different than it is now, but hypothetically, if they get a similar personnel, they can kind of force them into the same type of looks they were given before. Not that they weren't having success, but a lot of times we they forced Lebron. It's a passing two guys that that are necessarily aren't

necessarily beat shooters. But like you said, you're going to force your role players to kind of hit shots, and I think is I think it kind of comes down to how well the superstars can kind of navigate those schemes and how well the role guys can kind of like step up and hit the time of shots to they that they are going to need to hit. So I mean that just mattering Stephan leron are the best in the world that at that kind of thing. That's

what would make that match up exactly. Um. And the last thing I'll say about it is like, as far as I'm concerned, one of the biggest things that people forget about the Warriors because they were such an electric offense and they and you know, Steph Curry revolutionized the game in the way that we guard perimeter players and the way that perimeter players developed their game. There's so

much focus on what the Warriors offense did. People forget that they were the best defense in the league in two thousand and fifteen, and I think the best defense in the league again in two thousands sixteen or top two both of those years for sure. And so from that standpoint, like like like that, the same thing happened

with the Lakers this year. Like there was all of this focus on Lebron and him leading the league and assists and Anthony Davis averaging you know, twenty nine points a game and all of this stuff, and it totally took the focus away from the fact that you know, when I was projecting these playoffs series, all I could think was, uh, this Laker defense is the best defense

in the league. And when it comes to that, when it comes down to a uh to Lebron controlling the pace and slowing everything down and keeping things in the half court on the defensive end, and and getting out and transition selectively when it fits. You know, their numbers and stuff there was it was just extremely difficult for everybody to score. And that was what I noticed, and that was the reason why they were winning. It had very little to do with what they did on the

offensive end of the floor. They could have been, you know, that significantly lesser offensive team in my opinion, and still won the title because of how much their defense carried

them for those stretches. And so from that standpoint, like to me projecting the Warriors as I get into next season, as I'm watching offseason move as I'm watching the first ten fifteen games of the season, the number one thing I'm gonna be watching when I'm thinking about what I can see this team achieving this year, it's gonna it's gonna all depend on the defensive end, because I know that Stephen Clay and Raymond over the course of a season will figure out the offense. I don't care who

what role players they bring in. I don't care how much Andrew Wiggins struggles. I don't care who they end up facing the playoffs. I know that they are going to be able to generate quality offense. That is that is the biggest given of the century. The number one question mark for this team will be can they get into a playoff series with the team like the Clippers, who are likely to be much better next year and a team like the Lakers who are as dialed in

defensively as you'll see from any team this decade. Can they at least get close to that level defensively to where their offensive prowess can carry them over the top. And and that'll be the thing to watch over the next Uh, what's gonna be what like two or three weeks now? With the way that shaping up, Yeah, it's crazy, but yeah that's I feel the same exact way. So it's definitely gonna come down to to feel in those

pieces and thinking defense first. When you're feeling in those pieces, I think a lot of a lot of guys are kind of attractive towards fens because they can generate some audence. So they can provide like some type of offense. And it's like at the at the end of the day, Steph and Clay are gonna, like you said, they're going to generate offense like no other duo that that we've seen,

and like even you can see in the finals. Granted, I'm pretty sure you're you will maintain the stance that the Lakers took a few games off on defense, but we saw like the stuff that Dr Robinson and Tyler Harrod was able to generate is when you can shoot that well, it's kind of you have to go out of your way to to not at least generate some type of offense at a high level. Um. So I'm

not even worried about the offense at all. It's more so about bringing defense and bring in the vegativity with the lineup that we can were able to throw out. I do think that the Warriors and the Lakers have the best chance to bring in high quality veteran players

that are discounted. Um. The main reason because like you know, if if I'm looking, if I'm looking as a veteran player, just like put yourself in these shoes, you're a player that money is no longer really a concern like, Yeah, you could go make seven or eight million somewhere else, but you'd rather, you know, be in a better situation, a dream situation, and make four or five million, for instance. If you're in that situation, I think you're looking at

two main concerns. One is winning, and then two is gonna be you know what the quality of the basketball and the locker room is going to be. Like right, so because both of these teams are in California, is a lot like coastal California, so like it's not like the location's gonna matter. You're gonna be looking at like, am I going to enjoy being in this locker room? Am I gonna be? Am I gonna around good guys?

Am I going to be in it? Because as as someone who played in college, you probably understand better than most. It's just like I do that, Like, you know, the quality of the locker room is a huge impact on the on how much fun the season is. I I played on two different junior college rosters and an an ai A roster, and in each situation, like I I

got all into the spectrum. I got an average team as far as chemistry goes I was on a team that all loved each other, and then I was on a team of juco guys that all were out for themselves and and and the coach was terrible and everything under the sun. So from that state point, like, if

you're a veteran, you're looking at those things. And so if I'm looking for winning, uh, you know, the Lakers are a great selection, and obviously the Warriors are too, But mainly that locker room piece, Like, why in the world am I going to risk a Clipper locker room that has the potential to be an absolute dumpster fire. Why in the world am I going to risk a

Philly locker room that's gonna be a dumpster fire? Why in the heck would I risk You know, Boston who is famously has a fan base that's a bunch of you know, Mount breathers. You know, like, there's a lot of different reasons why you're not going to pick the teams. But I know for a fact that the Lakers had one of the best locker room chemistry situations in the league this year. And I know for the fact that Steph Curry is one of the best leaders in the history of the NBA, and that if I'm in that

locker room, I'm gonna be happy. And so from that same point, I think that that gives them a huge advantage moving forward. And then lastly, before we move on to some of this fun stuff, the I am excited to watch Steph Curry this year because you know, I

am a big believer in what he does. And if there's one huge side effect of the Kevin duran move to Golden State, it's that it clouded a lot of the perception of his career in the sense that like if you're if you are a detractor, if you are a person that you know wants to root against Steph for whatever reason, there's all the ammunition in the world based on Kevin Durant and based on the two thousand sixteen loss, and based on the two thousand nineteen loss

to paint him in a certain light. And it's unfair because if Kevin Durant wasn't there, we'd have another three years of evidence of of what type of player he is. You know, uh as that undisputed best player on the team. And I believe that had Kevin Durant not gone there, he probably still would have won one of the last three titles or or maybe more, who knows, but I think and I think he would be perceived in a

different way. And so kind of like what Lebron had this year for the Lakers as a as a season where he quote unquote reminded everybody, you know, just how good he is, I think this is Staff's opportunity for that. And I'm really really excited to see, you know, a big, giant f U season from him to remind everybody just how good he is and what he's capable of. And uh.

And then obviously we're gonna have one of the greatest late round playoff you know, matchup between the three really really really good Western Conference teams and in the teams in the East. It's gonna be as good as as as we've seen in NBA history. But I'm just really excited to watch stuff this year. And uh, and I'm excited to see what he can bring to the table.

Oh yeah, for sure. Um, I don't know if Carr is gonna gonna fully let him off the leash, well like like Luke Walton did in the beginning of that season when when Carr wasn't there and they just kind of went on that crazy run they give me like another game or something like that. But yeah, I'm excited to um. The twenty nineteen finals was kind of like another opportunity for him to kind of just like shut

everybody up. Kind of came up short there, so I thought, I'm pretty sure it's in the back of his mind too, So I'm sure we're gonna see some some crazy stuff from them this year. And the two thousand nineteen Finals is a great example of what we're talking about in this roster construction in the sense that, like, like that team after Kevin Durant went down, because they were constructed in a top heavy way, their lack of depth is what killed them against the Raptors. And you know, I've

seen a lot of guys. Tommy has gotten a lot of crap from Warriors fans for being too hard on Step for that two thousand nineteen series in my opinion, But the reality is is that like, um, you know what ended up swinging that series when their stars went down was they were relying too much on players who didn't have any idea how to impact winning on that level, uh in specific times and even even in tiny roles.

And I think that's what ended up swinging that. Um, all right, so you are the most experienced hooper that I've had, Uh come on this podcast. I know Tommy

played a little bit in college too. But what what I'm really interested in here is the fact that you kind of grew up in a different area of the country, because you know, and I know from when I lived in Charlotte that like, the hoop culture is just completely different as you get onto different areas of the country, and the Southwest is very unique, and that it's a lot of duotes from l A and Phoenix, and and then you get in the East Coast and it's completely different.

And I've I've never been up into the New York or into up into the further northeast area. And you said you're in Pennsylvania, right, Yeah, yeah, where do you live right now? You live in New York. I'm in d C. D C. Okay, run on. Uh, here's great hoop there too. But what I wanted you to start with is, just uh tell me a little bit about Like, Um, everybody's got their list. Everybody's played in college has their list of NBA players that they've played with at various

levels and various settings. So why don't you tell me about the NBA players that you've played against in various hoop settings over the last few years. Okay, um, I'll start. I guess I started in high school. Um. It was actually my very last game in high school. We have just had like a pretty successful season, came from the playoffs, but we were good enough to to be asked to

come into like a citywide lie tournament. Um. And we got to play Sidwell Friends in the first in the first round of that tournament, who at the time had Josh Hart there, um in his season, Yeah, getting ready to go to Villanova. Um, so I messed up with him.

It was it was a pretty cool experience, Like I have, I played pretty well when I said like the twenty years something points, right, But he at a certain point just kind of flipped that like I'm going to the league switch kind of like he just kind of like ended the game on his own. Like I think we were we were close, and at what point you just like stole a passing lane pass and just kind of just like went up when Mill dunked or something like that. And at that point we were just like okay, like

he's kind of like above us. But UM, that was a cool experience. And then UM in college my senior year, we actually got a chance to play against Kentucky. UM. Really Yeah. So the story is John Parry went to Clarion and played there four years, so UM, he always

has that connection with us. UM. And when John Wall was there, they set up that exhibition game as well, and they blasted Clarion, so we got a chance to play them again and he flew us so he got us down to Kentucky, which is probably like uh four or five hour drive from from where we were pretty close to Ohio, so we just went straight through to Kentucky. UM. And we we end up playing the baron FOXX to Malik Monk Bam out the bio team UM, and they

absolutely destroyed Asleep. And I want to say they had five five in big players. I know those three for sure win UM, Isaiah Briscoe had like a short stint in the G League and U UM Winning Gabriel, who's obviously just playing for the Trail Bays in the playoffs, was also on that team. And they had a bunch of other veterans and and it was it was kind of closed for like the first two minutes. Um, it was like thirteen to ten or something like that, and

then we we just got blasted by them. And the funny thing about that game is, I don't know if it's exactly like true the story is true, but the story is that we were um pretty much presented with an option to only go man, no zone at all. We were we were preparing to go zone because obviously we couldn't match up with them athletically, so we had to give ourselves a chance, um somehow defensively. So we were preparing the whole week for the team to go zone.

Um and apparently John called parties like there's no zone here, like this is our first game interrupt for the season, the fans are expecting the show. We need you guys to go man or like pretty the deals off like that type of thing. Yeah, So our man principles are like full core press because in our in our conference, where like we were probably one of more faster teams,

we had full corp press the whole game. And we brought that to Kentucky and Darren Fox was just like eating uself, like blowing past us, like couldn't we couldn't trapping because we couldn't catch him to trapping, so Lobb City mob after mob, like and it was from there. That's so, that's so unfair that he did that to you guys in such short notice, I know, right, Like

you guys didn't know at the time. So you were in the opening huddle of the game and the coach was like, hey, listen, we're gone, man, and you're like, okay, Yeah, it was like the night before or before something like that. Yeah, gosh, we had we had a similar experience with when I was at Arizona Christian University, which was the n A

I school I played at. We this is actually a great example of my overarching ideology on age because our backcourt was a thirty year old Navy veteran because you can do your eligibility pauses when you serve, and then a thirty one year old dude um who was like an All American that year, like one of the best players in the country and uh. And then I, like, I was one of the younger guys on the team, and I was twenty two, and I had already played

in junior college few years and all that stuff. So we played the same thing like a tune up game. Was supposed to be a tune up game at a Big Sky Conference team, the Northern Arizona University and Flagstaff And so they're like a mid major Division one team and we were just an n A I A team and you know, they're they're all ready for their you know, their version of that Kentucky Opening Night ask beating, and the crowd is already and we went out we just

we just beat them. We just beat them because we were we were older, we were smarter and uh and uh from that standpoint, like we uh and we were one of the best n ai A teams in the country. We were in and out of the top five all season and like, uh, yeah, we just we just beat him. And it was crazy and I'll never forget. Like after the game, the I've read an article from the local paper and the head coach did an interview from n a U and he's like, yeah, that wasn't an upset.

They were just a better team than us, like and he was just like that, and I think he was doing it to try to like rile up his guys and try to get, you know, a little bit of motivation out of him. But yeah, it was crazy. The same thing like we were just but like I trust me, had we gone to Kentucky, we would have gotten absolutely murdered. We weren't that, but so we were really good an

ai A team. And and I think that's one of one of the greatest examples I used for people who uh, you know, played because I've seen I've seen enough of your your athleticism and watching you play that I know that you could have played Division One at least if I dropped you in a in a random Division one practice right now, you'd be able to play. You know, I know you can and I know I could too.

But like everybody has their story, and you know, for me, I did to start playing, so I was twenty and you know there's a two there's a five year clock. So after my two years in junior college were up, no Division one would would touch me for one season. You know, I had Division one coaches that because I was All conference my last year in junior college, and I have coaches call the the the my program and

be like, what's the deal with this guy? And they'd have to be like these one year of eligibility and they would all like just immediately drop contact. And I actually actually got to the point where I told the coach to stop telling me about it because it was like depressing for me to like because like everything I was playing in Utah's like every school in Utah offered me are called the school, and every single time I was just like, look, just I don't want to hear

it anymore. This is depressing exactly. The point is is like, you know, we played small school basketball, and the truth of the matter is is like you know, uh, small school basketball is really really really competitive, and the players are really really good. And the truth is I can take a lot of D ones and drop them into Kentucky for opening night against here and Fox and they would get rolled. And and that's that's just the way

that basketball works. Yeah, a lot of people just kind of have this misconception that like if you're not the one, then you're not good or something like that. There's a lot of D one players that aren't good and how to D two in a N A A and like even D three players that can they can play with those D ones for whatever reason, they just aren't there. Um they got I think really starts to show itself. Um when you get like high high major like those guys.

And even then, like you said, at age can be the difference that that can that can make those guys lose, like when it comes to Timantum or whatever case may be, And it's not. It's not until like later on in life where they've become like NBA players and superstar and stuff like that, would they really kind of just like take away from from like the other guys. But the gap between these divisions and these different conferences in schools

is not as big as people make it seem. Yeah. Agree, and uh actually so this old segue into my next story. So I've played, I wrote down the list of NBA players that I played against. Obviously, in Tucson, the vast majority of NBA players that come through here go to the uv um to the on the top of my mind, I can't remember a Tucson local and made it to

the NBA. The best player locally um that people might recognize that went to high school here and came through here would be guys like either Bryce Cotton who played in the n Yeah, that's try. Bryce Cotton played the NBA. Okay, so you remember Bryce Cotton. He was a little guard. He played for the Spurs. He played for the Jazz and now he's the m v P of the A D of the league in the NBL in Australia. Like that, I've definitely heard. So he just won the MVP of

the NBL in Australia. I think he's one of two years in a row. But he went to he went to local high school here in Tucson. He played for a handful of NBA teams briefly, and now he's like the best player in that league over there. So he just makes more money. So that's why he doesn't come back. And then like uh, Terrelso going to play at the University of Maryland, Lefty score was like over two points a game in the a SEC. Then he's played in

a bunch of different leagues overseas. Uh, he's actually the guy who hosts the private run here in Tucson that I play and all the time now. But so those are the only like local guys, but through from the U of A. Uh, most of you guys know Alonso Treer. I played with him a bunch. Ronde Hollis, Jefferson, T J McConnell, Nick Johnson, Kittymowen, Justice Winslow, actually Justice Winslow. I'll tell you guys that was a different story. Aaron Gordon,

Derrick Williams, Solomon Hill, and Raley Alkins. There are a couple of guys like, uh, um, what's the big White due to place for the bulls LORI marking in, he for whatever reason, never was around when I was playing, Like he was here while I was here, but I just never ran into him for whatever reason. But those are the guys that I remember seeing. And then the last one is Stanley Johnson, which leads me to this story.

So and it's a great example of just the like I was talking about, like the winning and the way that changes as you get older. So Stanley Johnson was you know, six ft five you know something pounds just britt super super good athlete. Um, but in high school he was bigger and stronger than everybody. And so, uh, I had been out of college for about a year and I was still in pretty good shape, like as close to top shape as I as I had been.

And I was about twenty five years old, and uh, you know, just like kind of peaking somewhat so to speak, as a basketball player. And most importantly, I waited as much as Stanley Johnson did, so he came to UH. So him and t J McConnell and could Em Allen ended up coming to UH to the rec center at the uv A to play with just a bunch of you know, regular kids, and I happened to be there

on the court when they came. And of course, like this is the important disclaimer where you have to understand that, like Stanley Johnson was probably you know, in mess around about when he came into the to the gym. But uh, I'm not wired that way. I'm the kind of guy that, like, even in a random pickup game to this day and

I'm twenty nine, I just take it super seriously. I've just always been wired in that way that I just hate losing so much that I'm just wired in a way when I'm playing that I take it super seriously. So I started going at Stanley Johnson early in the game, and uh it became clear that he needed to take it more seriously. And I started playing like five feet

off of him because he couldn't shoot. And then when he would try to drive into me and bullying me, he couldn't bullying me because I was as strong as it. Because at that age as an eighteen year old kid, he was against other eighteen year old kids. He was a grown man, but against grown men, he was just

another guy, you know. And uh, and then I also ended up like just kind of focusing on all those little things to win, like breaking open when he would turn away from me, or cutting back door and all these like little things that would help win games. And we ended up winning. And I remember, uh, like literally the rest of that year when I would run into Stanley, he'd always like take it super super seriously when you

play against me. And I tell that story just because like Stanley Johnson is a is five hundred times the basketball player that I am, especially now, and even in that particular season, and that at that point in his life,

he was probably a lot better than me. But the point is is that, like you know, when you're a grown man and you've been playing for a long time and you understand how to win, and you're grown into your body, like it's just if you put an eighteen year old kid in that environment, he's at a disadvantage. And that standpoint, like that's a that's another great example of how like like you, they're like Doug Christie used to take it to Lebron or Lebron's two thousand three.

You know in two it's just really really difficult for for teenagers to compete against grown men at that level. But yeah, so that's my favorite. That's my favorite story of an NBA player that I've like gone head to head with and had a bunch of success. Um, I've played against a bunch of guys where that hasn't been the case. But do you do you have any other stories along those lines that you can share. I don't know about any necessary stories like that, but I guess

I'll go through my list. Um, and middle school actually matched up with Jeremy Grant. Oh really okay, Yeah, it was like middle school championships today. He played for Holy Trinity I believe that's the name of the school. They were in Maryland and my school to DC, and we just kind of like played for the area. We ended up winning, which is, uh, it's pretty cool. So we played Jeff played Jeremy, but obviously played against Josh Harden

high school. Um, I played against Marcus Derrickson, who with the Georgetown he was he was like in out of the G League I think recently. Obviously the Kentucky guys play against Tim Fraser. I gotta, I gotta, I guess I got a story for Malcolm Brogden. I played against Malcolm Brogden in like a local proram league, the recently league. They hold it at Georgetown UM, and he was just like completely in control of the game the entire time, Like it was really nothing. He just I don't think

he scored. Yeah, he's just like so strong and like he was just nobody can move him off the spot where he wanted to go. He got there. Is just he just controlled the game and it was over pretty quickly. Um. Yeah, that's off the top of my head. That's all I got right now. Yeah. So, uh, the last story that I'll share because a lot of these guys so like, uh, Stanley was in the open gym just at the rec center. I'm messing around Alonso tree Er. I only ran into

him messing around at the rec center. Uh. He just I was blown away that he ended up being such a good NBA player because he I he would he I thought that he like I thought at the University of Arizona that he was a little sporadic from a basketball act standpoint, and then whenever I'd see him in person, I always thought he was too small, like he just wasn't that impressive of an athlete. And I he proved me way wrong because he went to the league and

ended up being like a legitimate backup scorer off the bench. Uh, Stanley Johnson was only at the rec center. Uh. Let's see Derrick Williams. I ran into when I was eighteen years old at a random like a random city league game, Like I don't know how the hell at it because he was at school at the time. I don't know why he was there, but he absolutely destroyed all of us. Um. Solomon Hill was at a random open gym that I went to that was at McHale Center, which is where

they actually play their games. But um, I got invited to so my buddy. So I went to a local high school here in Tucson, and there was a guy named uh Matt Cortcheck who was a big man who played at our school. Sixten just your stereotypical like uh, I think, like, uh, what's his name? He played for the Thunder with Kevin Durant forever. Um the big white dude Nicholson just like that type of dude, just big

six ten, hard playing, hard type of guy. So he he played junior college here in Arizona, and then he ended up getting UH signed by Arizona and he never got to play really because he was trapped behind Aaron Gordon and UH and Brandon Ashley and all of those guys that came through the UV so he just all NBA players, So he just didn't get that, didn't get

to play much. But unfortunately, through his connection, because him and I were really good friends, he was in my wedding like he would invite me to all of their private open gym runs, and so they have. Richard Jefferson donated a ton of money back to the u B years ago and they built this place called the Richard Jefferson Center. It's just this unbelievable practice facility. So one day over the summer, I happened to be back in town between my two seasons, and Uh, literally he invites

me to this open run and I walked in. I'm just expecting it to be like a handful of guys that were on the team and then you know, maybe guys from around town, and Uh, for whatever reason, happened to be at the same time that Justice Winslow was

on his visit. So at this point, So at this point, Justice Winslow and Stanley Johnson were both the two recruits that Arizona was fighting over, and uh uh, Justice Winslow had an offer from Duke, and Arizona wanted Justice Winslow over Stanley, but they ended up taking Stanley when Duke. When Duke signed Justice Winslow, but Justice Winslow was on his visit, so Sean Miller wanted all the guys there

for this open run. M So next thing you know, I end up in this game where literally like it's uh t. J McConnell was there, Aaron Gordon was there, Um Kid em Allen was there, Nick Johnson was there, and Justice Winslow was there, and then there were I'm blanking on some of the other names, but there was some dude who was recently the player of the year in the Big Ten Conference, and like a bunch of these like huge names just happened to be in the

area and it proceeded to be like the most ridiculous string of pickup games that I've ever played in my

entire life. Like it was like I was rarely involved, like I did end up catching a lob from t J McConnell, and I just did my job like spot up shooting and defending and stuff like I wasn't about to go solo dolo and when I'm on the court, as you know, but like like just one play, like I'm trailing Nick Johnson on defense and Nick Johnson's running the length of the floor and I like kind of run with him and jump with him to keep him off of the to keep him from taking a layup,

and he just throws a drop off pass and I like quick turnaround and Aaron Gordon's just literally flying down the way and just put both the third one handed dunk like like thank god, I got out of the way kind of thing, and just uh like literally And a lot of those guys hadn't played in the NBA. Yeah, Like Nick Johnson hadn't made it to the league yet. T J McConnell hadn't made it to the league yet. I had no idea how good Justice Winslow would be

or any of those guys. But like it's funny looking back at that now, because like at the time, I had no idea that I was playing with like six dudes who would be in the NBA in a couple

of years, you know. But it's fun It's funny that you randomly just will find yourselves in situations like that without even really being ready for Like now, like who the hell would think that you'd go to that game one day and then Malcolm Brocken the whole time, you know, but you just randomly suiting up and I'm not gonna

carry today. Like the hardest thing you'll find is like that I've noticed is like, um, you'll get super highths and you'll be on adrenaline and you'll be playing your ass off, and and there's always that phase at the beginning where the other dude doesn't really know your style, he doesn't know how you play. He's definitely not your effort.

That you can kind of gain a little bit of an edge, and then all of a sudden, like they realize that you think that you're getting a little bit of an edge, and it clicks their compreditive instinct and then they start dialing it up and they then you can't do anything with them, you know, And like that, like even with Stanley Johnson at the end of the year, because I ran into him at the beginning of the year, at the end of the year, after his full season,

when he really went through Arizona strength and conditioning program, and he was even bigger and even stronger, Like there's nothing I could do with him physically at that point. Like it's just it's just unbelievable that the level of athletes that those guys are and just in the skill to go with it, you know, it's ridiculous, which is crazy because I actually thought Stanley would be a better

NBA player. I really don't know why I happened. Before I let you go, I want to ask you a question, Okay, So, um, I've asked everybody that I've had on since the end of the season, where where do you have Lebron all time after this season? And why? Okay, I have been second currently, I'm fairly certain that are that are ranking of him is is very similar. Um. I don't think anyone else is like other than Jordan's being like slightly above him. I don't think anyone else has claimed for

second at this point anymore. It's just like those two and in the field. UM, I'd say, um, just the dominance that he's shown, like since from the beginning of his career, so now, especially once he started like living in the finals for like a decade straight, it's just kind of like unparalleled, you know what I mean, Like it's only the only person that can that can make a claim to to Lebron's career is MG at this point. Maybe, UM, I guess like Kareem, you could feel Kareem in there

just because he's he's wracked up some money acculades. Um. But like if you look at it from my career standpoint, obviously he's probably gonna finish at worst the second, all the time leading the score. Um, I think he's gonna get first. Um, he's gonna be up there and all the time rebounds. Sis. It was like pretty much everything playoffs and regular season, which is which is also crazy. Um, he has the championships, he has the m v p s, he has all NBA's All Defense, All Stars, all that stuff.

So you look at his resume and how many awards he has and all that stuff he has to be there, and then you just look at him as a player and then it's just like how many players can you legit say is a better basketball player than Lebron. It's like not really anyone other than maybe Michael, you know what I mean. So I was like, he's definitely second at least for me. Yeah, I'm with you. I don't think I don't think there's a coherent case for anybody to be above him other than m J. I do

still give an edge to MJ. I think, like with everybody, like with Kareem, you can point to the fact that you know, when he was winning at the end of his career, he was in like not just a supporting role, but like like he was the third best player on

the team there at the end. And when you look at uh like Magic, other guys that you would consider up in that top five similar circum stances where they're their actual period of dominance where they were the best player in the league for that stretch of time was

much shorter. And you know, with with Lebron, like I think his opportunity is from this year forward in the sense that you know, up to age thirty five, both Lebron and MJ just had this decade long, you know, stretch where they were either the best player in the league or you know, our argument for the best player

in the league. And I think that um where Lebron can really separate himself is to be that guy who's thirty seven or thirty six and still somehow better than everybody, because that's where you would have to start pointing to, just to the longevity of his dominance. But I'm with you. I think like I think like the argument for any other player over him at number two has kind of disappeared after the season. It just doesn't really make any sense to me. But I wanted to get I wanted

to get your feel for it. Um, just because I'm gonna ask everybody that I bring on. But hey, justin I really appreciate you taking the time. We've been going for about an hour. I really appreciate you taking the time to make this work. I actually, uh enjoy following your fitness related stuff. I tried part of your push workout yesterday as part of my chest day. Be the one with the five by five by five with the triangles and then the uprights and stuff. Uh, keep sharing

stuff like that. I really like that stuff. We'll do. We'll do. Yeah, sure, I appreciate you having me on man. Uh if you if you want to check over the Instagram, I have like a lot more like in this way to stuff. It's like at performance prowess. Um. So yeah, for sure, if you if you want to over there, and I'll follow you on Instagram and uh and let's like, like I said, I had no idea you were interested

in doing this kind of thing. So let's get let's get back together and do something like this as we get closer to the season. Oh for sure, the problem. All right, man, I have a good rest of your day. You too.