Episode 5: LeBron and the NBA Hierarchy with Tommy Gunn

to this. I was hoping it would be a little bit sooner, more close to the end of the finals, but um, I was very archaic in my early attempts to get this going, and I had to get some stuff on the tech end up and running before I could really, um, you know, get to any sort of offseason content. And I appreciate your patience and appreciate you taking the time. Um, I'm really excited to hear your

take on the Lebron stuff. Primarily today, we're gonna focus on what Tommy has to say as kind of a rebuttal to everything that I said about Lebron uh last week, and we'll have a little bit of a give and take there. We're going to talk about where we think the top ten list of the NBA stands as of right now, and then, last but not least, what I

want to start with. It's just really quickly, um talking about the NBA restart in December, and particularly this idea that teams and particularly teams that made deep playoff runs could consider not playing in the at the start of the season, and so I just want to touch on that really quick and then we'll get to the fun stuff. But my my initial take on it, it's really simple. There are three, like absolute facts of this case. Fact number one, for every dollar that the NBA does not make,

the players don't make fifty cents. So it's a a revenue partnership. This is not a situation where the players can leverage uh the owners out of money that wouldn't automatically leverage themselves out of money. And then facts number two. In a normal off season, for two teams that play in the finals, you basically have from June to July, July to August, August to September, September to October off,

and then you get back into training camp. And this season, every team had at least from March to April, April to May made a June, June to July off. And for fourteen teams who did not you know, fourteen minus the what did they bring five extra teams to the bubble or whatever. So for eight of the teams they didn't play at all during this entire time, and for many of them they've been off for several months since then.

So the idea that the players have played more this season than they had in previous seasons is just not true. And then the last thing is that every single game from Smith Day this year, which was a Christmas that was considered ratings that were down from previous seasons, every single game from Chris Christmas Day this year outrated every single playoff game, including the finals. So what does that mean.

That means that the NBA very much needs to get back to their regular schedule so they can stop competing with you know, elections every two years in the fall and with football every single year in the fall. That it is very clear that the better schedule for them to be on is either October to June or December to July, something that goes in that general time frame.

So the idea that I, while I sympathize with some of these teams like the Lakers and the Heat that will have to do a quick turnaround, it's not like they're facing any sort of long term wear and tear. That's more than what they would in a normal season.

They've had more time off in the last season than they normally would, so I don't really understand that angle, and the reality is that it's a no brainer for them, not only for the health of the league, but the simple fact that they will us themselves money by delaying it on that split. What's your thoughts on that situation, Tommy? So, I agree with basically everything you just laid out, and one thing I would actually add on to the tail

end of that is the Olympics. Apparently the Olympics are going to happen in or at least that's what people are saying. And I don't know if it's a huge deal to have the Superstars there, but if we want to win Olympic goal, that obviously gives us the best chance. And the Olympics are set to go off right now, earlier than normal from what I've seen, I've seen like a mid or late July timeline when they're usually I think they usually start a little bit later than that. Yeah,

it's usually late summer. Yeah, exactly, it's usually August. I want to say, So, if you just add that on top of it, we wouldn't have our starts with the Olympics if the season runs into August or September again. Um, but that being said, Chris Haines tweeted about twenty five minutes ago. Yeah, who sources substantial facts and the players and star players pushing for January eighth. Mlk DA start

free agency starting on December one. That would put teams like the Lakers and the Heat on more of a normal timeline in terms of an NBA off season, it would still be a tiny bit shorter. Um. So, like you're saying, I do sympathize with them, but they did have it was basically a four and a half month break right all the season, so in terms of they shouldn't be feeling too far behind. It was a quick push on the bubble. But if if this is I've seen the number I've seen thrown around, it's about five

million dollars worth of losses. Um. If they do start at this m Olka, they versus December. So if the plan is to bring in as much money as possible, they need to start in December. Um. Yeah, I had not seen that Chris Saine's tweet yet. That's interesting. It just dropped right at noon, so thirty minutes ago, and I guess it. I guess it's not the most shocking

thing in the world. But like to me, it's like, like, of course, you guys would rather wait till Januarry, Like like what if someone told you that you were going to take a vacation, but you could take an extra month off, Like, of course they'd like to. I guarantee you if, for whatever reason, in a normal season there was some reason to leverage it. I could see the players being like, let's start in November instead of October. Without a doubt they're the players would like that to

be the case. It's just they have, in my opinion, they have no leverage. If I'm the n b A, I'm saying, you're gonna cost yourself money in the form of this revenue splitt for for the vast majority of the teams, they're actually itching and ready to play. So we're making basically massive concessions for the sake of you know, one or two teams or two or four teams, depending

on where you know where you feel about that. But it's like, also, you're sacrificing that Christmas Day element, which has always been a huge income day for the NBA. It's just I really don't understand it. Uh, from the standpoint of you know, like, without a doubt, if you're Lebron, if you're you know, Jimmy Butler, if you're even the Nuggets or the Celtics, it sucks. I get it. It sucks.

But this is just the nature of the business. What would have been your late season and playoff run, instead of taking place from March to June, is now going to take place from July to October, and and in your off season is effectively going to be split in half. That's really all that happened. It's it's that simple, and it's such a no brainer. Yeah. And I think lastly,

the the NBA starting later doesn't do anything. At this point, fans aren't going to be back in arenas no matter when they started, unless they plan on starting in the summer, which isn't realistic. So fans are going to be back in the arenas either way. There's no point to push it back any further. If this season started, and like you're saying, have that Christmas Day game, um, and I think that it will feel more like a quote on normal NBA season if they do do that, which gives

them a better chance of getting better ratings. Yeah, and if I'm the NBA, I'm saying, fine, if you want to delay to January and now the finals ear in July instead of June, like, just do something, not even if you have any intention of actually doing that, but just to attempt to leverage the players into understanding the obvious solution here exactly. Um. But on that note, I want to get to some of this fun stuff we

have been talking about. So basically I'm gonna do a super quick rehash of what my Lebron thing was because I want I want to start with, is your kind of, you know, response to that? For lack of a better phrase, but essentially, for those of you who didn't hear it, I essentially said that before this year, Lebron had no case, in my opinion, to be the goat. I thought it was a mistake for players, for fans, and for Lebron himself to make that stand. But that I do believe

now he does have a case. I personally probably give a very slight edge to m J still at this point, but I do believe that you could have a conversation about Lebron being the best basketball player ever, and it could make enough sense to have like a real conversation around it. And I said that the two things that that case has to be built on are one his winning versatility, the fact that he's won in so many

different ways. To be clear, it's there have been six complete different roster configurations that he's either won a championship with taking to the finals, are taken to within two games of the final, two wins of the finals. And then the other big chunk of it would be his mental toughness, just the idea that while guys like Magic and Bird and Kareem and other players that were considered in that top five to seven range had seasons where they lost in the first round or the second round

of the third round. Duncan is another great example of that. Whereas you have Um and Michael Jordan's like having retirements in the middle of his career to kind of refresh mentally, Lebron just kind of always had this ability to to dig deep into approach every single season with that same you know, fervor that he did when he was winning. And I thought that those two things would be the main piece, and then the big third piece that he could add in the future that could eventually put him

definitively over the top is the longevity piece. Because Lebron and m j both won titles and finals MVPs at thirty five. But now Lebron appears to be, you know, on the precipice of potentially adding a couple more. So, my question to you, Tommy is do you agree with the gist of what I'm saying? And then finally, where would you put Lebron all time after this season if

you had a gun to your head. So I think I'm gonna agree with you, maybe a little bit more than you would expect, because so I've laid this out on Twitter multiple times, there are now I would say, four guys in NBA history to win four championships as the unquestioned best player on their team. Those guys are now Michael Jordan's, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, and now Lebron James. Because I would consider Lebron, even though eighty is amazing,

He's an incredible player. I would consider Lebron to be the best player on this lasers and I don't think it's super close. I don't I don't see how it went anywhere near as many games without Lebron. I just don't see the case for eight being the best player. He's an incredible player, but he's more towards We'll get into where he's at later in terms of lead rankings, UM, but I don't see any case for Lebron not being the best player on this team. So that puts him

an elite company. Obviously, he's now one of four guys in NBA history who has done this. In my estimation, you could probably make an argument for magic because you could say he was not the best player on the Lakers first title team, but the next four he was. But if the if we're saying unquestioned best player, then it's just those four ties. So he has put himself

an elite company. Where I don't think his GOA cases maybe as strong as you think, UM for a couple of reasons, mostly because I think a lot of it and maybe not to you, A lot of it to a lot of people is getting to eighth straighte finals. But where I would push back is well, he did have the mental toughness to make the finals every year. He also did get a certain sense of resets in

that he got to change teams halfway through that. When Jordan retired in ninety three, he had been with the same organization for nine years, and he had been with the same real group of guys for six or seven. Not really at any point in Lebron's career as he's been with the same group of guys for that long unless you count that first Cleveland stands right, yeah, exactly, and even ter turn over Hawn to turnover, especially as they were trying to find pieces to fit around him.

So my argument would be, while he didn't necessarily, you know, he did make the finals a year, which obviously is an incredible, credible feed no matter who you're facing. That the East was, I would say historically, especially towards the back half of that run. I thought the front end, especially the early Miami years, the week He's were still

pretty good. As we got towards the later Miami years and then the Cleveland years, I thought these was terrible, to be quite right with you, and he did, and he did get that little reset where he gets to choose a new group of teammates. So while he's still playing all those years, he's there is not that internal fatigue organizationally and from a chemistry standpoint of being around the same guys over and over and over and over again.

And we even saw it in the short standing Cleveland, where I mean, we know what Kyrie is at this point, but him and Lebron got sick of each other after three years. You know, if Lebron would have been with the same franchise for eight or nine as my cat,

maybe he's maybe things look a little bit tempering. So I don't think that The only reason I would disagree with that specific point is like sure like he got along extremely well with Dwayne Wade, and he's getting along extremely well with Anthony Davis and even Kevin Love, who, but for all intents and purposes, was a guy who was a little bit of a loner. That's kind of his personality. Even him and Lebron kind of figured it

out towards the end. So I think, like a lot of times the Kyrie dynamic has shed a like an unfair negative light on that relationship. But like my biggest pushback on the Lebron shuffling the deck thing is like, to me, the Lebron shuffling the deck thing is was his counter to some pretty unfortunate luck with his teammates

over the years. For instance, I've always said like if Lebron was had Anthony Davis drafted a few years after him, and he could spend his entire career with Anthony Davis, I don't think he ever leaves Cleveland to begin with. I think if Dwyane Wade stays healthy and as much of the same player as he was in two thousand eleven throughout the two thousand and twelve, thousand, thirteen, thousand

and fourteen seasons, I don't think he leaves Miami. And then if Kyrie stays and Kevin Love stays and and honestly, like I think one of the biggest reasons he went to l A was the Kevin Durant thing with the Golden State Warriors, Like I think he that coupled with the Kyrie Irving, uh, the trade kind of made him realize he needed to kind of shuffle his deck again.

But I think, like for Lebron, different than other stars that are in that top tier, he always was kind of put in a position where he could have admirably continued to fight with the same situation, but there wasn't really much of a realistic option. If you look at their goats. You've got Michael Jordan, who had Scottie Pippen for his entire prime. You've got Tim Duncan, who arguably played with the greatest organization, you know, literally potentially in

the history of modern But that was that? Was that more Duncan or was that more of the organization? We see where the organization is at now they're middling. They struggled to keep Kauaiian in with their organization and now they're barely a playoff team. There's truth to that. But Pop himself will give Tim Tim Duncan more credit for anything for the organization than he'll take and that's Pop being Pop partially. But I think there is a lot

of truth to it. Duncan was the rock of that organization. I agree. I think it takes two though that that's my point is like I think, like if Lebron was in a similar situation where he had a good front office and they were good at drafting, and they did have a cup a really key clutch moves over the course of the years that refreshed their roster, like Kauai like manor genobly stuff like that. I really do think

Lebron would have stayed. That's kind of my key with my point is like so that but would be what about Miami, Well, Miami, So Miami was towards the end. I really do think Lebron saw the writing on the wall with Dwayne Wade, like I think, so I like, there the reality. Like you know, in two thousand twelve and two thousand thirteen, d Wade retooled his game to maintain impact, especially on the defensive end of the floor and as a playmaker and as a mid range score.

But the truth of the matter is that, in my opinion, in in two thousand and twelve two thousand and thirteen, Wade wasn't top three player in the league Dayane Wade. He was more like a kind of like we see Jimmy Butler now, like that guy in that eleven to fifteen range who's extremely Although I know you disagree abou Jimmy Butler, but it was that I think I think that I think that d Wade had fallen significantly off of that point and a lot of that shine was

still on the apple, so to speak. So you know, you look at the roster and it looked like it was incredible, but there especially in those last three years, they leaned extremely heavily on Lebron and I mean Bosch. You know, the realities is that Miami team was still good at the end. I mean, there's a reason why they made the finals in two thousand fourteen. Bosch was really blossoming as a stretch five at that point. He was taking a lot more threes, making a lot more threes.

But the reality is is like Wade was, Wade was barely playing. I think he only played like fifty games that season. When he did play, he was in the teens as far as points per game goes. He was a shell of himself offensively, I think Lebron saw the writing on the wall. And my whole point to that is, like, you know, you know, like look at Kobe Bryant's career.

You know, he was happy when he was winning with Shack, and then when him and Shack you know, lost a couple of years in a row two thousand, three thousand four he was kind of burnt out with that situation. Then he found himself without Shack understand inning that it was a lot harder to win than he thought. And then he threw a hissy fit and called into a local sports radio broadcast and demanded a trade and like.

But then all of a sudden he gets pall gasol and he's happy again, and now he wants to and like and and I don't think on the Kobe stuff, but I hear you there, because I mean, look, I grew up in l A. All that stuff definitely happened, right. There was a time where he was very very unhappy with with the organization, and Lebron, to his credit, took

four things into his power. But I think that's also why, in a way you can point to why he I don't know if blames the right word, but he deserves more blame for some of the ways his career has played out, for maybe not winning quote unquote as much, even though he does have four championships in seventeen years, so it's not like he hasn't won. But he has taken more control of his career, for better or for

worse than anybody in NBA history. Um, So with that comes probably more credit, which I think he gets a lot of, but it also comes more blame. And I think that's why you pointed to this, Yes, why he is so polarizing. You know, I think I think it's like a trust issue thing, like if you, for instance, like I've been fortunate that I've been in relation. My marriage is is like you know, rock solid and we're good.

But like I've heard stories from friends of mine who have been cheated on or like things like that, Like trust issues linger, and they change the way that you approach future relationships. And like, I really do think Lebron was so scarred over by Dan Gilbert than Danny Ferry that he was like, I don't trust the front office. And then there was a big story in two thousand fourteen, uh,

the heat cut. I believe it was either they cut or traded Mike Miller for salary relief, and Lebron, like before the Finals, was deeply offended because he was like, why aren't you guys willing to spend the extra money to to give us this depth that we need now Mike Miller wouldn't have made a difference. But my point is is, like I think that starting in Cleveland, Lebron

kind of formed trust issues with the front office. And I really do think that his entire career is shaped by a simple premise that he's like, I've got to do this myself. Now I agree with what My big point that I agree with you on is, like I do think you'll hear a lot of Lebron fans try to portray that as a like, as a positive to Lebron, like as a oh, like, Lebron didn't have help, so he did all these things. My my equation, my way of rationalizing it, is more that this was his version

of having a great star teammate. While players like Magic Johnson and Kareem had each other, and while MJ had Pippen, like, Lebron had kind of a smorgaspord of of of supporting pieces because he shuffled the deck, and that to me kind of amounts to a similar type of effect to

what those players had. What I'm saying is I'm not going to penalize Lebron for it either, you know, because I do think you hear some detractors that will say that Lebron deserves criticism for shuffling the deck, when I think what that was was a guy who took his destiny into his own hands because he didn't want to have an Anthony Davis type situation where seven years go by and you made the playoffs twice. You know what

I mean, which is fair. I just think from my perspective, I would exprested that Miami organization more just because patent he's proven. I spose it wasn't as proven at the time. Now he's proven. Um, I would have trusted that organization to get it done more. I agree with you on that. I agree, I think it would have worked out. Still, I think exactly get in Miami. I mean, i mean, look look at look at how they've recovered from losing. But nobody else has done even remotely close in this one.

And it's been Cleveland both times. So it's it's tough to make to draw an Apple's Apples comparison there. Yeah, they missed the playoffs the following year, but Boss had the blood clot thing and they probably would have made it. And then they made it the next year, made it to the second round, so I and they got to a Game seven with Toronto where they would have had

a chance to play Cleveland. I agree with you. I like, I'm just saying like I think Lebron got by d Wade's decline, and I think I think he had a meeting with pat Riley, and pat Riley was like, hey, man, I got what was the left handed shooter from Duke

what's his name? Um, uh no, he might even uh he was the six ten white dude shooter from Duke Josh McRoberts, Josh McRoberts, Josh mct thinking Josh McRoberts and uh and Danny Granger, you know, yeah, and you know, like, and we're going to resign Bosh to this big max

contract blah blah blah. And I think Lebron sat there and was like, I don't know, I don't think I can do it with these guys, you know, and and and I And it's it's ironic because you could make an argument that had he stayed in Miami, he would have won in two thousand fifteen as a result of Golden State being kind of green and uh. And I think I think that they have a full roster. I'll hope you Russell, they probably do be Golden State because

they were just mentally they probably weren't there yet. And you can see that in the first three games of the finals in that two thousand Picks Finals, they probably weren't quite ready yet. They were just too young. They didn't have anybody with the experience. Um. But I mean, I think we're getting too much into the weeds on on what Lebron should have done instead of just you know, discussing and personally my fault, but discussing, yeah, discussed saying,

you know, he he had. I thought this was his most dominant playoffs and some of that was probably probably because two of his biggest competitors were out. But there was never a playoff run at any point in his career where his team looked this dominant throughout the entire run. Um. At no point did I think this Lakers team was

gonna lose to anybody. Yeah, as much as I wanted to fool myself and make make myself think that Miami had a chance to pull off three straight and come back down from three one in the finals, it wasn't gonna happen. They were The Lakers are clearly the best team from start to finish, um, And I think that does matter when you start talking about goat debates. So one of the things you point to is winning versatility,

which I done, which I do think matters absolutely. Lebron can potentially win in more constructs than m J. I'm not gonna say if he can or can't because I would say MJ had probably nine or so title contention years. He started making the Eastern Conference finals and um and if you look at his career even early in his early years, every time he lost in the playoffs, it

was either too the NBA champion or the runner up. Now, those early Bulls teams had no shot at winning titles, but as soon as Pippin became a reasonably good player, they were quote unquote a contender, and that started with Lebron. Lebron might playing a more I would say, like helio centric style where he was handling a lot of the ball handling duties. He was kind of doing everything. He was distributing and he's scoring um and then Phil comes in. He kind of influences fran goal and then they go

on kind of an unpresident run of success in modern basketball. UM. So, while Lebron might have a winning versatility argument, I would say it might not matter as much if both play is style of play is so dominant that nobody can really touch you. Right, So Lebron has one of more constructs, I would say, just because he has been on more different rosters. But even if you look at early Bowls or nineties versus labels, those rosters are a little bit different.

I would say they had more scores on the early rosters um, and that it was more kind of defensive and and um playmakers on the way to roster. They really rely on MJ for a lot of scour against layers, especially because Pippin really started to decline offensively. If you look at it, his playoff covers are horrific in the late nineties. They're like worse than the wait when at the end of that Miami run. UM. So they really really relied on ending for a lot of sparing and

it was a different game. Uh that pace was nowhere near as fast. Teams didn't choose many threes, which is why it's so tough to do er and era comparisons. UM. But point being, I think just from what we've seen, well, like I've said, Lebron might be more personal winning wise, I think the bull style play was more dominant to their era, which is the only way we can really do this right. It's impossible to insert these guys into each other's eras, so we have to look at what

they did in their era. UM for sure, I mean everybody like there is no definitive answer to any of these questions, like like even you know, uh, Michael Jordan before you know, two thousands sixteen, when when some of the crazier Lebron fans jumped on the Lebron train, Michael

Jordan was was as close to a consensus. Uh, as close to a consensus, uh, you know, goat that you'll find in any sport literally like and so from that standpoint, like, you know, even at that moment in time, it still was contextualized by people saying, you know, oh well Bill Russell had eleven titles, but he did it in an

era where there were barely any teams. And he also he also had by far the most talent on his roster, you know, and all this other stuff for you would have you know, Kareem same thing, like, oh well, Kareem. You know, his career was elongated by magic, and he won of you at the end of his career when he wasn't nearly as good as he was at the beginning.

And I'm on the team, yeah, exactly, Like you're making all of these you're making all these contextualizations and so the realities you can do that with the Lebron M j debate all day, and my my angle is is, like that's why what I think is interesting is the cases, right, because like MJ's case is, like you said, it's not it's not versatility. It's just a huge amount of the same thing. And that. But that's that's a good case.

The case being like you know, for for the better part of a decade, if this dude was on the court, you lost, like and and that was the thing. And and from that standpoint, like I agree with you, you can only be measured definitively against your era, you know, Like that that's the thing, Like we can at least look back, you know, let's say Lebron and Stepp both retired tomorrow, Like you can at least look back on the previous you know, eight nine years and be okay

in this era Lebron one. More so, like there's this evidence that I can present to you that this guy is better than this guy, Whereas like with Lebron and m J, it's entirely based on like you know, they're completely unique circumstances. And even you know, like in even just in the last thirty years, how much the game has changed, just in terms of the xs and os and in the way the flow of the game looks in a half court and in transition. So it's like

it's it's all based on these contextualizations. My thing is, like the case that a Lebron kit fan can make is if I'm picking five random dudes or four random dudes, and I'm picking ten random bench players, and I'm picking a random coach, like I can point to evidence that shows that Lebron would be more likely to win with those guys. It doesn't mean that there's bad evidence for MJ. It just means that there's less good evidence because of the fact that he won in one specific way. So

like I know that if I have, you know. But but the reality is is like if you're a GM of a team and you know MJ can win in one way, you can go out and build a roster that you know will fit with what MJ does. Well, I'm just saying like, like, while MJ's cases this like dominance in his era that is kind of repetitive, Lebron's cases like this just ridiculous versatility spanning a very large, uh period of time, you know, And those are the

differing cases. And at that point, and so much of this is subjective, Like I just you know, some people watch Lebron and don't see the impact. You know, they watch him and they go like, what is up with these funky isolations at the top of the key where he's doing these weird dribbles and shooting a pull up or oh, man, like every time he goes to the basket, he's just bowling dudes over and you know, oh, like I hate it when he passes on the last shot.

And then you have other people that watch and they're like, they're like, oh, he's strangling the pace of this game, and oh, well, that was an ugly basket, But that's an ugly basket that you can depend on in the half court of a playoff series. And you know, s he did kick out to uh Kyle Korver for a miss or to Danny Green for a miss, but he also beat the Celtics by passing out to Chris Bosh for a huge three in Game seven, and like, you know, like that, there are huge plays that are the opposite

version of that as well. And so like people either look at Lebron and MJ and they like what they see or they don't. And I think one of the reasons why I brought you on is like, I think you're one of the people like me, even though you would side with m J. I think you're one of the people like me who genuinely sees the positive, positive impact of both because like I love MJ. My very first piece of basketball memorabilia was an MJ sports illustrating poster.

Like MJ, I have the exact same body as MJ. Nowhere near as athletic, but like I structured a lot of what I do around him. MJ is as a as a basketball fan, He's one of my favorite players ever, I just grew up as a Lebron fan. That's literally the only difference, you know what I mean. And so I think, like it's impossible to have this debate with somebody who will look at Lebron and be like, yeah, he's the seventh best player in the league, you know,

like my buddy Jeremiah. Like it's like I can't have that conversation with you, because like you're coming at it with too much bias, you know what I mean. Yeah, And I definitely wasn't willing to have any type of go conversation with the problem before this year. I'm more willing to have it now, I still wouldn't, like I still mean m JA because I'm an mp A guy, and I probably will unless Lebron does some pretty incredible

things over the next couple of years. Um, but I think to kind of put a bow on it, Like I said, he's one of the four guys who has that accomplishment of best player on four championship teams. You know that is that is an incredible accomplishment matter how you slice it, right, And you know, he got lucky with it this year, but there's other years where he's gotten unlucky with ines' lucky with other things. So yeah, he definitely benefited from some things breaking his way this season.

But I don't think you could hold that against him because he definitely had some stuff not operak his way in the back exactly exactly, so it's tough to hold it against him in either fashion. Um. So oh, I mean, I don't know, I I don't really like this is gonna sound like a cop out, but I don't. I haven't done a top ten list of all time and so long. I don't know exactly where I put him. I think I had him before this year somewhere around six or seven, eight, something like that. I'd say he's

definitely top five. Now, Um, it's a short list, it's him, it's m J. For me, it's probably Bill Russell. I have Duncan in there because I love Duncan Um, and then I don't even know. I guess I probably throw Magic in there, um, But I mean that's there. I could hear the argument for Kobe Um. I would probably

be Magic for Kobe UM at five. And I, like I said, I don't really do the top ten list thing, but I think it's basically those five or six guys all time where you could rely on them for a longer period of time for winning than basically anybody else in MBIA history. Right, Kobe came any one championship early one champhip, ten years later Magic. I mean, if Magic doesn't have to retire because AIDS, he might have competed for champions for three or four more years he wanted.

There are a lot of things that could have changed the nineties because then the breaks that MJ had in the nineties essentially centered around expansion and the careers ending shortly.

Because the way that lebron Is Kauai now is the way that magic should have been to m J. Sure, but my rebuttal would be, so Lebron is gonna have a longevity part on the back end here that I don't think was afforded to guys like Mike for magic referred because the technology wasn't, the sports science wasn't as good. They care for your body wasn't when it wasn't as good. Lebron can, you know, get his body to be basically a well old machine. I can play into his forties

even if those guys. The only thing that pushed back on you there is look at how many players from Lebron strafter still in the league. That's the only way I pushed back on you, like while Lebron. I agree in principle that the league has better or more technology now, for sure, But theree reality is is Lebron's longevity is impressive,

even just within the lens of this era. Sure, so yeah, I would disagree with that, um, but I think there's also something to Lebron coming into the league when he was eighteen, and most of the guys in that draft get it right for sure. And that's why I said I can't I can't factor in counting stats or seventeen years for Labroo. Yet, like Lebron's longevity argument has to be built from this point forward. It hasn't been built

from age. It's not built from years in the league in my opinion, because it's not like so it's not like Michael Jordan wasn't playing basketball games. He wasn't playing his mini at the same age, and he's playing thirties something versus eighty something. But they were also probably running three out practices in North Carolina because it was the eighties and nobodys were probably ridiculous, exactly exactly. So I I've never viewed that. Yeah, so it's the longeverything. Has

never been based on years in the NBA. To me, that's the dumb argument. It's age. Age is what matters. That's the longevity argument. So yeah, like I said, I think he's I would probably have him top five all the time now, just because there's been an extended period to hear him obviously basically twelve thirteen years of championship contention, which is insane. Um. So yeah, I mean that's where

I would land on it. People are gonna get mad at me, They're gonna call me plunch for that, but whatever, man, like I gotta be honest with what I see on the floor, it's better to do it that way. Like, and I don't know, Like I I understand that taking crazy stances plays really well on TV and stuff like that, but to me, it's just so yeah, I don't, I don't. I'm just not interested in having that kind of debate.

And like the the debate is more interesting if it's closer, so like when people are being honest, the debate is genuinely more interesting as opposed to you know, like, oh, there's this massive chasm between the two. Okay, well now why are we even having to talk about it? You know if that's the case? Um, And then the last thing I'll say about it before we move on is just like his story is not over. He's probably gonna

go into this season, is the favorite he uh. The reality is is like if his body holds up, he's going to have an opportunity, opportunity to add more to this k Ason. And I do think at that point, like with each passing season, there will be more to talk about here. But I do think that this point, the summer between his seventeenth and eighteenth season is the first time that you can actually sit down and make

a case for him that makes some sense. And that's that's really the part that I found to be interesting. All right. On that note, I want to move on to this NBA hierarchy thing. I've called it a horse race. I view it as like, you know, a story beneath the story. At the end of the day, it's a team sport. And you know, I think for most fans, casual fans that exist on you know, on the periphery, who are monitor who are just rooting for their teams,

this cannot be super super interesting. But for people like me and for a lot of the basketball junkies out there, like I enjoy the idea of of kind of like gauging where these players are at any given moment in the NBA history. The reason why is I do think that I think a basketball more so than any other sport that I've been a part of that's a team sport, is a very in your face, mono imano type of sport.

Like like I go play pick up still to this day, and when I'm in the gym, I'm measuring as I'm trying to win team games, I'm measuring myself as an individual against the other individuals in the gym, and I really do think that other NBA players do that, and I think that that isn't you know, I think that we are foolish to pretend that doesn't exist when I

guarantee you the players think about that. I guarantee you every single player in the NBA thinks a lot about where they stand in comparison to their peers as individuals, and so that's why I find that debate to be interesting. So real quick, just to to before we get into what uh what you have is your list? I had lebron one. I put Steph Curry, to which I think you and I, um uh, you and I have similar

feelings probably in that regard will find out. And then I put Quiet three over a D because I was really disappointed in Anthony Davis's offensive repertoire being kind of shut down by Miami in the finals. I thought that he still was deeply impactful, so it's not an indictment on his impact, but I thought that a lot of the things he was able to do in the earlier

rounds were schemed out by spolstra Um. I had Kevin Durantist five, mainly because of his complete lack of dedication on the defensive end of the ball in his over reliance on isolation scoring. I had Janis six for all of the reasons you could probably guess. I had Lucas seven, James Harden eight, Yo Kitchen nine, and Dame Lillard ten. So my main, uh, I guess my first question would be what does your list look like? And then what are the things that you would push back on in

my list? Okay, do you want me to just run through my list? Yeah? Why don't you run through yours first? And then as you get to one that's not the same as mine, kind of explained why sure, So my top to her the same exact as yours, um process, and I you know, Braun clearly deserves the crowd at this point. You know his team won the championship, even though Steph was injured. Doesn't matter. The guy who was the best player on the best team in the league

most years deserves that guy. It's rare when that guy doesn't deserve the crowd. It's usually like a two thousand fourteen Spurs situation. Oh for Pistons, it's the outlier. Typically, if you're the best player on the best team, You're the best player in the league. So my top two are the same exact as yours for basically all the reasons you laid out there. I think they are offensive engines on an all time level, whereas I don't think

anybody else on this list is. Well, they may be better at specific offensive skills, right like you could point to maybe Katie and Quiet being better players or whatever, but I don't think they are the same type of offensive engine. Is either one of those guys I think Lebron had said brings such a unique um offensive creation. And we've talked about this before. They do it almost total opposite ways, um, but it's superferent but similar impacts.

It's similar impact, and they free at their teammates for open looks consistently every single night, and it's it's probably the most dependable thing in basketball that those guys teams are going to get open looks on a pretty consistent basis against against any defense, any right, exactly against any defense of any level. UM. So my top two are the exact same. I had Kevin Durant at three because the way I look at it, there are three that

we're basing this on Kevin Durant's health. For the record, I'm saying Kevin Durant is fully healthy. Yeah, this is Kevin Durant being fully healthy or well, you know, as close, which I think to his game the past couple of years has not been super athletic defendant. He has been working more out of the mid range than ever. Um, he doesn't take a ton of threes, but he's been taking you know, a good volume of him, like five

a game. I want to say, um, so, my my counter to you would be and I heard the defensive part. I don't Thinkai plays defense anymore either, and that's why I have him over Kauai. Um And I think he is a well a D has improved as a score. I think he is a far superior score to eighties. Still, I think Duran is one of the five greatest scores of all time, while a D really has no there's a chasm between a D and Kati and an offense exactly. But there's also a chasm of the defensive end for

whatever there is there is. But I think offensive impact is more important than defensive impact. We're talking top ten list because if you look at the end of the year. Every year, the guys that are left standing are the best offensive players typically and sometimes it's the best defensive guy, but it's typically just the best offensive players. Um So,

in my case for Katie would be over Kauai. His team is not in any single playoffs in his career has gone out like Hawai's team and not is not from the three one standpoint, we talked about that Clippers lass and now it's maybe the most embarrassing laws in NBA history. Um if I did this, I think the other day I ran down Oklahoma Cities laws is in

the playoffs? Um since well, basically all Kevin Durant's playoff pearans is Yeah, I would say the closest thing would be two thousand thirteen or two third team against Memphis, Right, So I'm gonna touch on that one too. So his first playoffs ever two thousand ten, they lose the Lakers in the first round. Lake was going to win the title. Two thousand eleven, they losing the conference finals to the Mavericks. The Matters go on to win the title. Two thousand twelve,

we know what happened there. The finals, they lose to Miami Durant is I want to say, twenty three or twenty four years old at that time, super young, leading a super super young team to the finals and actually played really well. Um Russ was hit or miss and Harden was absolutely awful in that series. They lose the Memphis No Russ. The starters in that series Kevin Durant,

Reggie Accent, Serge Baca, Tabos Stefalosha, and Kendrickkins. Derek Fisher was Derrek Fisher played a hundred four minutes in that series in five games, so he's averaging around thirty minutes a game. H Kevin Martin was playing like thirty minutes a game. Redgie Acson played like thirty five minutes a game. That was a god awful basketball team. And Katie did not play well well. I shouldn't even say that. He sport game from the field, so it's not like he

played awful. But that was a bad Oklahoma City team. They're starting Kendrick Purpose, who were okay players back then, but but nothing specialeen. They lose to a vengeful Spurs team who goes on and wins the title. And that series was close, a lot closer than the Miami Super It was two oh, and then they got to back up back and went to two two and the first somehow get it it out just because I think they

were so motivated to get back to the finals. Um, there was more work at play there than just you know, a one on one series between the Spurs in the Thunder, they were on a revenge tour. The Spurs work. Next year, Katie gets injured, they don't even make the playoffs without him. Team we all know what happened that both three one lead to a seventy three and nine team. Uh, seventeen and eighteen he wins the title. Nineteen he gets injured, his team doesn't win the title, partially because he's not

on the floor. This is your easily. So my point would be, I don't think at any time, maybe the season when Kwai was really really good. I think that's the only season you can really make an argument for Kauai over Katie. But even that, your Katie ends up winning finals MVP. UM. So point being, I don't think at any point and his career has quite been a better player than Kevin Durant. And my biggest thing is, I'm not sure if you can build a championship level

team around anybody besides those three guys. I think you can't around Kauai at this point, but it's for hit or missed because of the injury stuff and if his mid range game isn't going, really has nothing else to rely on. But I know for a fact I can build a championship contention level roster given average parks. I know I can do it along around Lebron. I know I can do it around Staff, and I know I can do it around Kevin Durant. I don't know if I can do it around anybody else. I really don't.

I mean, if you have a rebuttal to that way to it, but I don't know if there is one. Well, yeah, so I mostly agree with you the in the in terms of your points, I think it's important to disclose that I think after I think that there's given Lebron's defensive impact, there's a little bit of a gap between Lebron and Steph and then I And then I think there's a little bit of a gap between Steph and the next three guys. I think A, D, K, D, and Kauai are all very close in my opinion. That's

just my take on it now. So if you had k d above Anthony Davis and Kuai, I don't think that that's much of a difference in my opinion between what I said, um that said my my biggest thief with Kitty. His entire career has been like that. And

you and I talked to about this at length. But he he has the physical gifts of Anthony Davis, but has has the like similar defensive impact to like Steph Curry, because you know, and I know that sounds absolutely insane, but the biggest reason why is because Kevin Durant is he gambles a lot. He is constantly standing straight up, he gets out of position all the time. So even though he has these amazing athletic gifts and physical gifts,

he makes a lot of flash plays. Defensive point, he makes a lot of it, makes a lot of flash plays. But the possession effort besides, really in first half I'd say it wasn't there, yeah, and and like it was, Whereas like Steph Curry, who's six ft three and relatively slow, what he does amazingly well is he's always in the right place, and he's always committed to the team defensive goal and he does a great job of playing defense with his feet and with his chest as opposed to

playing defense with his hands and like. And when he does reach, it's always very timely, and it's always very like appointed and focused as opposed to just you know, like like Kevin Durant's defensive focus and effort in his career has been kind of laughably bad for a guy who's as good as he is. And I think I think he goes it goes to show you that how much we value offense, that we even see him as

high as we do. But I think my case for putting Kauai and Anthony Davis ever so slightly above Kevin Durant is the fact that even though Kauai I agree, since San Antonio has taken his foot off the gas a little bit on that side of the ball, I still think him and Anthony Davis is overall defensive impact is so much greater than that of Kevin Durance that

that that to me, would be a differentiator. Um And and for the record, that's my biggest worry about that Brooklyn Nets team is just you're looking at the elite do duos in the league. I'm looking at you know, Lebron and a d who are just they're attacking both ends of the ball. And I'm looking at you know, Tatum and Brown, and I'm looking at you know, a Kauai and Paul George, and I'm looking at all the

even Stephan Clay. It's like Stephan Clay aren't the same physical talents, but Clay is an elite defensive player and Steph tries to be. And so from those standpoints, it's hard for me to get optimistic about a Brooklyn team who's two stars are basically going to look at the rest of the roster and be like, you guys do it, you know, and I think that that that could end

up being something that could hurt them. But essentially, like the last single saying Katie and then we can move on your list, like I that, I think the top of the league right now is deeper than it's been at any point since the late nineteen eighties, basically when all the eighties stars were at the end of their prime, and when the you know MJ's of the world where

at the at the start of their prime. And right now when you're looking at that list, a list that has guys like James Harden, for me at eight and be honest at six, like a ridiculously tough list. I think you've got to differentiate yourself in some way. And you know, for Lebron and Staff, it's that elite offensive playmaking, you know, And for Lebron it's his defense, and you know, for Anthony Davis it's you know, his defense and what I thought was one of the most dominant defensive playoff

runs in league history. And joannest just one a Defensive Player of the Year, and you know, and when you get down to like Luca in Yokich, it's this unbelievable passing and playmaking ability that arguably is in the top two or three in the league in that regard. And like so you have these differentiating skills and Kevin Durant is scoring, but I think he I think he does leave a lot to be desired, desired in the other

ends of his game. And last or not least, like I really do think that Kevin Durant from a basketball i Q standpoint, is a little over reliant on isolation scoring. And like you said, and he has been there at the end with every in every season, either losing to

the eventual champion or being the champion. I think there's help permitting that's been the case every single year I and I agree with that, but I could also make an argument that part of the reason why he's come up short is the fact that he over relies on that side of his game, and like, and I think the greatest example of it would be, you know, well to two real quick ones two thousand sixteen, going you know, like shooting horrifically bad in the last few games of

the series and taking like thirty shots a game, and then two uh in two thousand nineteen him him going on like the most magnificent, like efficient scoring run we've ever seen against the Clippers, and in the first four games against Houston or anybody watching the TV's like, dear god, this guy is unbelievable. He's making everything, but the team's

not winning. And the team because they were too too against Houston, and they even let the Clippers take two off of them, and then as soon as they as soon as Kevin Durant goes down, you know, the the Warriors start playing their free flowing style with step again and then they take off. Now, my, there's some context there. You know, Portland wasn't super good but but, but they

did take two quick ones off of Houston. And I guess my point is is like when when stepan Quin won seven of eight, when stephan Quite were healthy, they won six in a row and then they dropped the game one in Toronto, They wont game to win Toronto, and then play was basing in and out of the series for the rest of it. Yeah, he sat out

Game three. Yeah, you're right, and like and that That's all I'm saying is like I think, like I think my beef with Kevin Durant would be you know, and I said this the other day on the podcast, but like he he was, you know, someone he did an interview with that guy from the Elite group Cam who's running the group, and he said, he goes, uh, you know, like what are you what are you working on this summer?

And and Kevin Durance just like just doing one on ones and it's like you can tell his view of the game is like I Am going to be the greatest one on one player of all time. And while I do think that's a huge asset to winning and why agree with you that you can be the best player in the championship team. I'm just saying that. I think there are a few guys that take over and because of his over reliance on that ability, and that's that's entirely fair. But I think he is so good

as an I score, it doesn't matter. And I think when he wants to be, he's a better distributor than both of those guys. He's a he's a been natural passer. UM. So I would just rely on a team built around his offense, given you know, a baseline of defensive effort, I would I would trust a team with his him running the offense more than either one of those guys. UM.

Like it took a lot for the Wise Raptors. It took a lot of extra playmakers for them to win that title, because I was going to do any of that. And A D eighties phenomenal, He's a phenomenal player. UM. I have nothing bad to say about the guy. UM, But I don't know if he could ever be the true number one option on a championship team. He's gonna I think you'll get to that point. I don't think he's there yet. That's what it depends. How he can

start playing out of double teams and stuff. That's gonna be a huge part of his development. We'll see how Lebron factors into that, because I think he will. Um. But point being, I mean those guys are I would have Katie closer to the step of Brontier I think than you would. But I do hear your argument, and I do see why you put in kind of that

next year. Um, So I had Katie three, I had Kauai four, which I think you had quite three, right, and then I actually had um and here's let's see, let's hear the reason for so here, here's my reasoning. Number one, the playoffs stuff in New Orleans. I mean the guy in the playoffs like two times and seven years, I believe is what is what happened. Um. And I do see the argument for a D in terms of

being a better score I guess in ISO situations. Um. And he's an incredible defender, So you can't I think when you're choosing between honest and a D, you're kind of splitting hairs defensively, even though I would like to see Janice fully unleashed on that end, which he really is an inbut system he's playing drop covers half the time, which is I mean, I know it's effective at certain situations.

But I'd love to see him play the five more and get to switch and just be like super duper, just because we've seen, like even in like the All Star Game, when he got Super into the All Star Game, it was like bananas, how distructive he was, like pushing out guys in the perimeter and just pausing chaos. So I think he could do more of that in a

better construct or better scheme. Um. But my biggest reason is I trust Johanna's more on a night tonight basis to bring the the physical and mental side of his game than I do Anthony Davis At this point, I think a DA has improved greatly in that in that area, but even the couple of stinkers he had against like my aunt or you would have like one or two

stinkers a series. And not that Joanna doesn't do that um in the playoffs, but he's also carrying a much larger um I guess load in terms of offensive and defensive responsibility. UM. I know one of the things you pointed to when you were arguing a d over Ghanes was the fact that ad was able to get his points in different ways when you know his ISO game wasn't going. My pushback on that would be he's playing

with Lebron James. You know, he's getting points. The dunker spot is getting points in like you know these easy way by being a cutter. The Milwaukee is a horrendous passing tune. Well, I think Chris Middleson is a very good player and has become almost somewhat underrated by some people and operrated by others. Like he's not a top ten player, but he's also probably not outside the top thirty or top te five. He's really good, but he's not a guy that's gonna be setting up honest on

a consistent basis. And that's what you honest needs at this point, because if you can get him a guy like that, he's gonna be insanely impactful. You're right, they're the best playmaker on the team. Might be what George Hill here bledsoe. I mean that there are so many times where I'm watching Bucks games and you honestly has a guy skilled on his back or he's like open cutting down the lane and they just flat out and miss him. You know, it's like, Okay, that's an easy

two points. That's an easy two points. That was that he probably have gotten Thoult on that cut. You know, it's and it starts to add up where he's I don't like the way that he's almost been taught to play at this point by Bud and that Buck stat. Um. So I'm relieving a lot of the blame from the

honest here and I realized that. Um. But I think my my bigger point sorts around that he's led sixty win teams basically in back to back seasons, and even though there are the playoff failures, they were two games away from making the NBA Finals last year. Um. If a couple of things go differently, they're up three oh

in that series and they're probably playing in the finals. Um. And like I said, I just trust him more on a night to night basis, I just do just from an effort Standpad, I agree with you on the mental and effort stuff. I think that Janice's motor is as good you'll find in the league. He actually reminds me of young Lebron in that regard, just that like every night, it's like it could be like in Portland on a

random Tuesday, and he's just bringing that intensity. I guess my question or my my like angle on it was, I'm evaluating them both as players who are not best player on championship team level players because I think we've gone past that on our list now. I think after I think the tea fours that I think Kauai, Katie, uh Lebron and Steph or for me, you know, Anthony Davis.

I put Kevin Durant down as well, But most of that Kevin and most of the Anthony Davis over Kevin duranthing for the record has to do with like rewarding this playoff run, you know, like understanding that, like in the proverbial horse race. You know, Anthony Davis should be able to go into next year with a certain amount of clout as a result of doing what he did. And uh and I you know, the chances are I'll watch Kevin Durand at Brooklyn, Jersey next year and immediately

remember that I'm crazy for making that decision. But regardless, as far as as far as A d and Jannice go, you know, I'm looking at them both as players who can't be the best player in the championship team. So I'm evaluating them in a different land. Do you think from the and from go ahead. Do you think Johannes would be meaningfully worse or well, okay, would the Lakers be meaningfully worse with Janice there instead of a D. So I think it completely changes their team because the

way Anthony Davis space is there. So I think I think you mentioned this earlier, but I I said this in my in my Top ten podcast. I think I think uh A d and Joannice are the two best defensive players in the league, and there's a huge gap

after them. Like I think, I think like the Goberts and the Quais of the world are not even in the same like stratosphere as Anthony Davis and honest, because Anthony Davis and Janice are the only two perimeter defender lockdown perimeter defenders who also happened to be seven feet

in the league. Like guys like embiid and and and uh and uh Gobert are are examples of really tall players who can lock down the paint, but you can scheme them out of the paint as opposed to you know, like like whereas Anthony Davis and Janice can, you could literally put them on on DJ Augustine and they to shut them down, you know, and from that standpoint, I think that uniquely qualifies them for defensive impact that all of the other four forty eight players in the league

cannot qualify for. But aside from that, and now I'm looking at them as set and best offensive players on teams. So Janice is miscast. Now I agree with you, as the best offensive player on his team, but I do think that I do think that it's telling that you know, when when your offensive isolation game gets shut down, you have to find other ways to score. So for most players,

you know it involves closing down the lane. So with the Lebron and Janice and Anthony Davis, a Kauai, whatever it is, you shut down the lane, you turn them into jump shooters, right, So so there's this huge gap between Anthony Davis and Jannie in terms of their jump shooting, which is part of the reason why in the in the finals, even though Eric Spoelster completely closed down the lane, Anthony Davis was still able to get to his twenty

six point points per game on ridiculous sufficiency, as opposed to Janice falling down to I think like twenty two, and then the previous year against Toronto like twenty three. I think that both of them can be based on the offensive glass, and I think you saw that. I think even in the Miami series, a lot of Johannice's baskets came on the offensive glass. Both of them can operate out of the dunker spot with a playmaker. Now, to your point, Johannest doesn't really have that luxury which

can really affect him in that regard. But Anthony Davis can uh shoot the ball from the perimeter extremely well. I guess the only I guess if I'm being fair, though, I would you could say the same thing about Janice's playmaking ability. While I don't think Janice is a great playmaker, I think he's pretty average. I think Anthony Davis is pretty far below average, and so I think that there's a gap that can be uh talked about there. But I think part of it is rewarding Anthony Davis for

what was a championship run. And then the other part of it is just the way that Anthony Davis. I was impressed that when the defense completely took him out of his of his post up game and basically turned him into a contested jump shooter, a spot up three point shooter. And a guy who operated out of the dunker spot that he still had a pretty damn big impact on the game from that standpoint. Um, but I agree.

I agree with you that like it kind of is similar to the Lebron MJ thing where we're kind of contextualizing and entirely different circumstances. Like Honest is now a number one, Anthony Davis is a number two a D. A D is playing with the player that accentuates and uh accentuates his strengths and kind of masks his flaws, whereas the honest is by himself. So when the team like Miami exposes his flaws, it's like glaring, you know. But I see where we're coming from on there, and

I'll allow it. So let's let's move on to the next one on your list. So that five, eight, six I had Yoka to seven? Is that where you had him? And where nine? Okay? Yeah, I I have heard seven. Um, I think he's a championship level offensive engine if you

put the right pieces around him. But because why I haven't brother done to listen some of those other guys, Because the defense as a center, it's really hard to build around a guy who can't detect the him at a fairly elite level, right if you're if you can you can hide guards defensively, you can even hide wings to a certain extent, not as much, but you can't really hide centers. Um. So if he was better defensively, if he somehow figures out that end, they're gonna be scary.

That Denver team is gonna be really scary because I think they're starting to build something there. Um. And he is a tremendous, tremendous offensive talent. I mean, I obviously wasn't old enough to watch anybody like Bill Walton play, but or or Vitus a bonus really, but those are kind of the two names that are throwing around as the greatest passing big men ever. Um, I would be shocked if yog which wasn't right there with those guys. I mean, he is a tremendous pastor. He can score

an isolation. Not as good as some of the other guys, and I think you pointed this to not as good as some of the best guys, but he can absolutely do it. Um. His numbers get better in the playoffs, his shooting percentages, his scoring. I'm not sure if it's a Cisco up or down, but he usually outperforms his reagul their season. At least through the first two playoff appearances of his career, he outperforms his regular season in the playoffs, which is huge, big margin, by a big margin.

So I mean, I could really even hear an argument for putting him as high as like five, but I would, I really just because of the chasm between the defensive end between him and a D And honest, I would have a really tough time gating that because they're both so unpactful defenders. They're they're defensive player of the year type of defenders, while Yokich is middle tier at best. Um. So I mean, obviously it's for mendas player, um, a guy that I love watching play, But yeah, I think

seventh about right for him. Who do you have at seven? So I I put Luca at seven and got part in an eight. And the big reason why I put below those guys centers around what you said before, like the difficulty around scheming for a bad defensive center and then to just like not quite as dumb and it as a as a score. And I think a lot of people would say a lot of people would say oh, well,

why did Yogis beat the Clippers and Luca didn't? And I think what I would tell you is that I really do think that the Kristaps injury hurt that Dallas team, and I think there's a really good case that that could have been a first round loss if if Kristaps was healthy. And the reality is is what I view Luca as is basically a perimeter Yogis who's a better score and who's easier to scheme around defensively. So that was the big reason why I had him up there.

And then the big and and then Harden similar thing. Harden just uh, Harden's uh this postseason Actually, as much as I could slander him for other things, he still

managed to score the ball pretty efficiently. And then James Harden has definitively turned himself into kind of like a Steph level defensive player, a guy who knows where to stand, who cannot be victimized in switches, who really his main defensive shortcomings come in the form of little quick lapses, like a random time that he doesn't get back in transition, or a random time where he gets caught falling asleep. But for the quickness to and he's strong, and he said,

you can do that. He's turned himself into an average defensive player. But like, this is another tier thing where I think, like for me, I have, uh, these three guys, Harden, Yokich and Luca all kind of in the same tiers. So I think you're splitting hairs kind of uh, differentiating

between those guys. And I'm kind of going against my own ideology here because theoretically we should reward Yokis for what was this dominant playoff run that said, like I the reason why I put Luca in James Harden above him center around that position that I've always viewed more valuable. You and I've argued about this in the past. I just I'm always gonna lean perimeter initiator in a situation like this. And then secondly, just that like the reality

is is like yokich Is you mentioned this earlier. He is a very good score who on any given night can be a dominant scoring player if you leave him in isolation and you don't send help. But but it's so clear that guys like Harden and Luca are advanced

beyond his skill level in that regard. But I do agree with you and I view, I view, particularly Luca and Yoki, is guys who could one day be guys who have that Steph Lebron type impact where it's like this supreme offensive engine, me too, me too, um, and my my pushback would be on the permitter initiative things. I think in some ways Yokich almost is a permitter initiator. He does have Jamal Murray on his team, but I mean,

Murray was obviously fremendous in the playoffs. I don't want to take anything away from him, but a lot of the time it's his decision making leads a lot to be desired. For sure, he's a great score. I think we I think we even get super duper hot for extend a periods of time. But Yokich is the primary creator from that team, and a lot of times he's having the phone going off, um the defensive blash, he's bringing it up, and teams are pressuring their point guards,

so he doesn't. That's a weird thing about Yoki. He

doesn't fit queenly into any you know one archetype. He's so unique um And I think guys like that with his skill level are so hard to game plant for because you really haven't seen anything, you know, that combination of scoring and blaymaking from a guy that big, and and because of the shifts that have occurred around the league, Like I think that's a big part of it too, is just Yokis is kind of a market inefficiency in the same way that Steph was in two thousand fifteen.

Like he's precisely, he's so ahead of ahead of his position that like right now, people don't know how to guard it. I mean, like in two thousand fifteen, like guards didn't even know to pick up Steph Curry after half court for like the first season and a half, like it seems for so puting drop coverag against roll. Yeah.

So yeah, it's like and I think Yokas just kind of taking advantage of that right now, whereas like, uh, and I think that's what ended up hurting them against the Lakers was the fact that the Lakers had someone that could physically match up it's a bad matchup for him. Oh yeah. And but like the bottom line is, like I I think that I agree with you, and I like all the things about Yokos that you like. I'm just when I'm splitting hairs between him and Harden, and Luca.

That's what I Those are the reasons why I put him above. So what do you got after Yokich at seven? I got Luca eight, and I'm Jimmy Butler at nine. So you have Hardened at ten. I got Dame it ten, So you have hearted outside of the top ten. Yeah. Yeah. And this isn't even an anti like he was thinking. This isn't like me being a Warriors fan and hating on the Houston Rockets. I just I'm to the point with Harden where it's like it's the same thing every year.

And if I'm starting a team right now and you say, do you want Damian Lillard or James Harden, I'm taking Damian Lillard. I'm sorry. If I'm starting a franchise and you're as might be, I might be on your side. That's what this is what I'm saying because and and and it's well, Hardened might be a better isolation score, and he might have better look. So I'll preface everything that I'm saying about Harden with this. He is one of the most tremendously talented offensive players I have ever

seen in my life. He's an absurdly talented offensive player, but he doesn't use his skill set in the correct way. He has become so reliant on isolation basketball, like way more than even Kevin Durand to the to the point where it's so predictable. And we talked about this when we analyze the Houston l A series. L A was

just sending a double at him. They knew he was going to pass it out of the double one stand, so as soon as he picked up the ball, they were already rotating out of the double team almost they were already they were pre rotating because they knew exactly what was coming. It makes his team, while he still got his numbers efficiently this year, it makes his team so easy to garden, so easy to guard. And a lot of that I think was the way they tried

to build around him. But I think a lot of his his statistical dominance has been been because of the way they both around him. It's particularly in the regular season. They've built around trying to have a guy who could be the most statistically dominant player in basketball. And my second point would be why I would take game over him. If we're gonna talk leadership and wanting to center your franchise around one person, This isn't even a conversation. Oh

my god, it's not. I mean, we don't even have to have the conversation. James Harden runs teammates out Damian Lillard has been playing with a guy who really is not played made to play with him and C. J McCollum. But Calum, I think could be really successful and some other um team constructs. You know, I think it could be like really good and Philly because they need a guy like that. But Dame could have Wind three or

four years ago. Hey, you need to get somebody in here who can actually defend next to me, who breaking a different type of skill set. He hasn't done that. All he does is trying to lead his team to to win, no matter what's happening. So I think you're going to get a bunch of crap for this, But totally you don't. You don't sound that crazy, be honestly exactly,

And I know it's an observed take. And like I said, I prefaced this was saying Harden is one of the most talented offensive players I've ever Well, it's I think I think your point. It's gonna feel like Harden slander. But I think half of it is just acknowledging that the NBA is so ridiculously deep right now. Absolutely, that's a huge part of it too. Um So yeah, look, man, I a couple of years ago you could have convinced me that guy was the top three player in the league.

But just seeing the way it is now, it's the same thing every year. It never changes and there's never any progress. If anything, it just gets for us. The one year that he had actual playoffs success, he had top five point part of all time at his side, you got amassed a lot of his flaws exactly. That was able to control pace for him, that was able to get his teammates efficient looks when when he couldn't because his style and play stagnated. Um yeah, I mean

it's stuff that we've talked about what's hardened before. So I said this in my top ten list. The I think that he's one of the few guys is on this list that there's a proven way to beat him. And I think that that I think that that exact point I thought I had him low at at eight. So the so I think from that standpoint, like, um, I think we're coming from the same at this from

the same page here. And you know it's funny because I as I was looking at Tears, I was comparing hard into your kitchen, Luca, And you're right, like, I think what he does, I think right, no, I And I made that case based on his his versatility, and I thought, I think Luca, I think Luca as a playmaker, and I think James Harden is a guy who can pass.

And I think there's a huge difference. And uh and but you're right, like now that I'm looking at it from the angle of Dame versus Harden, like that's like I have to think about that one and Game and to be clear, game as a case. To be clear, game has not been a great playoff performance, Like I'm gonna I'm gonna lay that out there as well. But he just had an all time statistical regular season. Um, not that Harden hasn't. But once again, I think a lot of this stuff that happened to Dame in the

playoffs situde a team construct. I just think they have not done a great job. This is a great This is a great segue because I had Dame over Jimmy Butler because I said that if Dame was in Miami that he would look, you know, like he'd be doing this, he'd be making finals runs and stuff. So my question, so this will actually be a perfect one for us to end on. And I think it's good because I've taken a lot of flak for this one, and you're kind of a good opposite perspective. Why do you have

Jimmy so high? I wanted to have him as high as seven, but I couldn't. I couldn't be honest with myself and do that. So I refresh my mind here. I know there were three things that you laid out as what you value for um being a top ten planer. It was defensive versatility, UM isolation scoring, and then uh, playmaking. I think we're the three. Yeah. It was like a leite high end playmaker, elate high end isolation scoring, and

elite high end defensive versatility. Okay, so I would say Jimmy is very good to elite and all three of those categories. He's incredibly defensive versatile. He can basically guard anything one through four. He the way he reads rotations defensively is almost Draymond Greenlight off the ball. He arrives at spots before the offensive player even knows they're gonna be there, And that's like a super super rare trade that you don't see from you see like five six

guys in the league. Maybe if that so, he's super defensively versatile. People say, oh, is isolation scoring? Is this or that number one? How many guys in the league are actually better at than him as an isolation score I know, it doesn't look pretty. Doesn't look pretty with like and I'm not making a dead comparison between two. Doesn't look pretty with Lebron a lot at the time, right,

it doesn't necessarily have to look pretty. So well, what's your well, what's your rational zation for the fact that, like, statistically speaking, he's not even in the top two, three four tiers of scorers and games. Yeah, he's a twenties pointing game guy. He's like Chris Middleton in terms of statistical production. Well, he has a super high free throw rate. You get to the free throw free throw line at

a higher rate than almost anybody in the league. And when when the and I know you said, well, the Lakers gave bad defensive meator when they left him in isolation. He had a forty point triple double without two of his best teammates on the floor, and then he had a thirty five point Game five, where Lebron was probably better in that game, but Jimmy was damn good. How many guys can say they've gone total total Lebron and NBA Finals, same position only for two games and had

the worst team and gotten wins. Well, I think I think this is where people, uh, like they're overvaluing the finals. I people, you know, I think this is where people went cross wise with me and I and I got confused, you know, as to where the pushback was coming from, because like, like, I think there's different conversations to have.

Like there's a conversation around how amazing Jimmy was in the finals, and then there's a conversation about how good is he at basketball compared to some of his peers, because like, for instance, you know, Rondo was unfreaking believable and you know in four or five of the of the playoff games, including games six of the finals, but like he was also like terrible in a bunch of

the other games. And I don't think anybody in the world would say he's a top fifteen point guard, you know, but he was the best of the arguably the best point guard in the floor in the finals. So like the thing is, like when I'm when I'm talking about this, I think people confuse me, you know, dissecting Jimmy's game with slandering his performance. His performance in the finals was unbelievable. He was he was the reason why that series win

six games. There's absolutely no other opinion you can hold. And I'm not slandering that. I'm just saying, you know. And for instance, one of the reasons why I spoke so much about the Laker defensive effort is the Lakers defense has never been a great isolation defense team. They consistently have had have put weak individual defenders on the floor. Danny Green was a weak individual defender this year. Cantabious call Bo Pope was a weak individual defender this year.

There are centers. While they did okay, like Dwight had some success against your kids, but there their centers were

not good in switches this year. Their whole scheme was built on if you got you, you would put Lebron or a d on the best player, but if for whatever reason, a screen or some sort of action got them off of the body, you would send help in double, And that was the problem that I had with it, is like, you're right, Jimmy absolutely towards Mark Keith Morris, and he absolutely torched contabious, called Pope Pope, and he absolutely towards you know, Caruso when he was too small,

and all these other things. But I I always just felt like, you know, we had all of this evidence for basically six years that Jimmy was a twenty point of game playoff guy, the twenty one point a game regular season guy, and then two games in the finals happened. And while those finals performances should be lauded for what they are, which is amazing finals performances, and Jimmy deserves

credit all of the above. If I'm projecting forward, like it's kind of like the Anthony Davis jump shooting thing, Like Anthony Davis deserves all this credit for making a ton of amazing contested jump shots in that playoff run.

But the reality is is that, like, if you're projecting for next season, he's probably he's probably not gonna be a fifty mid range guy, you know, so, and that's that's all I'm saying with Jimmy, is like Jimmy's Finals performance was unbelievable, But we have six years of evidence that he's a below average isolation scorer or you know, in that Chris Middleton tier, meaning like he's very good, but there's a lot of guys who are better than him.

So my my pushback would be, I think he's more reliable in the playoffs because she can get to the free throw line in Middleton camp for sure. And I for the record, Jimmy Butler, I'm just saying, I'm saying that, like his impact goes beyond his stats. I'm just saying that, like I don't. I think he's closer to what his averages are than thirty point triple double guy. Sure, And that's so my argument would set in the center around Jimmy being uniquely impacted. He is one of the most

scalable players in the league. I think we've seen if you need him to get thirty, he can't if you don't want to have to do it every night. But if you need him to do it, he can't. He's also a super duper underrating playmaker. He's a really good pastor um and I think his ISO game is more

reliable in the playoffs than other guys. Is that Sixers team last year took the Rappers, the eventual champion Rappers, to seven games, but then be scoring like seventeen points a game on like thirty seven percent shooting like and that a lot of that was due to Jimmy being able to go head to head with Kauai and not from a scoring standpoint, but just being impactful in so many unique ways. It's it's the same argument that I'd almost made from Draymond four or five years ago being

a top ten player. Right, The numbers are never gonna look great, you know. Some of it is dependent on team construct where you can put certain guys around him. But if those guys around him, he is so impactful that he's going to give your team like Conference Finals

four basically, right. So while I do understand not putting him there for the reasons you laid out, I think he can fit into so many different constructs and he the same amount of impactful or more impactful depending on where he is that I think he has a case for top ten. I mean, so you had you had a player on the final seven, right or was it I can't remember Jimmy yeah, nine, nine, nine, So I

guess I had him behind Luke. So before the season, he won three playoffs series, one when he was a very small role role player with the Bowls I think in two thousand and twelve or something, and then uh, and then he basically won two first round playoff series in the Eastern Conference, the terrible, terrible Eastern Conference. Other

than that, he hasn't won a playoff series. So I guess my question for you would be, you know a player at that level, you know, I would like to see And I guess that's I guess the other guys in his peer in his his peers in that tier, like like Luca and Yo Kits are also kind of

you know, lacking the volume of success. So I'm with I think that again it's splitting hairs because like for me putting him at eleven, all I'm doing is I'm putting Damon James Harden about him and you're not, you know, And it's not that I think he's been in terrible situations until basically this year, I mean, like uniquely bad situation. Chicago tried that whole three Alpha's thing with him and Wade and Rondo Um and then he was in Minister.

He took that MINNITOA the team the playoffs in Minnesota, fret that hadn't been in the playoffs in seventeen years and they haven't been sent And we know the story on Caton Wiggins. Now those guys aren't winning players. Um and then Philly, that organization is a dumpster fire most playoffs success. And then this year, you know, the he team that hadn't been hadn't really sniffed the finals in

a while, he took him there. So and and I think what he has the ability to do is say, Okay, I need just to try to get thirty on this night. I can help by scoring volume. I can try to get to the free throw line more. I can take a couple more jump shots on nights where you know band has it going. I'm gonna be the most impactful defensive player on the floor. You know a nights were go on doing more the playmate. I'm gonna be a great cutter. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that.

For most guys, I don't think are willing to do that. And I think that is super duper value valuable, and I think we actually undervalue it, the willingness to play different rules at a highly highly impactful level, and he could do all of them. The only he can't do it is super highly impact the level is shoot three pointers and and that would be my argument. He does

so many things that a really elite level. Well tell me, I think I think you have at least got me to open up my mind a little bit on a couple of things, namely that my James harden Slader may not be enough that uh, I actually see the Anthony Davis, you honest thing from a different light. And I understand your case for Kevin Duranti's highest three. Um. Uh, this

is why I wanted to have you on. I think you bring an interesting perspective and uh, I think you and I disagree on a lot of stuff, which I think is good. But at the same time, you're not an absolute pain in the ass about it, so that makes it a little bit easier. But anyway, dude, I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. That was a good a wow, an hour and a half and a half that was got back to work. Yeah, I hear you, I hear you, But thank you so much.

I'm gonna try to convert this into an audio file, so that I can put it on my podcast feed for all of you who have listened. Um, but again thanks, and then at some point in the future during this UH offseason, we'll come up with something fun else to talk about, just to kill a time, all right, brother, have a good one. Letter