A media, How could we possibly talk about any sort of election if we're not talking about the white evangelical.
We had to talk about it.
In this episode of Terrriforming, We're going to address the white evangelical.
Now.
I'm giving these qualifiers to what type of Christian we're talking about for a number of reasons. One, because you know your boy, whether you notice or not, your boy knows the Bible.
In addition to.
Being you know, a hip hop artist and poet and being formally trained in like social sciences, your boy has theological training. And the truth is like if it come to the scriptures cont to the Bible, and I mean you don't want to smoke. Your boy knows what he's talking about. Now, in a universe where gravity and the other laws of physics that rule the universe, in a world where those still apply, the advent of a Donald Trump would have been unthinkable, anathema for all my Bible nerds.
He's a Nebakanezer character again, a nero, like just a nimrod like. He's these characters that are these archetypes that are in scripture that if you twist your arm hard enough, if you twist your theology hard enough, then you could say that like he is this rod of correction, this godless rod of correction that God has sent to correct the society a man who doesn't have the moral standards and does not hold to the same things you hold that God is using to correct the wrongs of society.
Like if you twist your theology well enough, you could get there. But here's the thing about theology. Christian world is like any other fandom. And I hope that doesn't sound reductive. It's like any other fandom in the sense that there are hardliners and liberals, there are people that only have a surface on understanding. There's actual experts, quite
a diversity of thought ways that those are practice. You have your orthodoxy, which is like what we believe, and then your orthopraxy, which is what we practice, like correcting your practice. Theologically speaking, you want both of those to meet in a way that is consistent, aligned to the tenets of the faith that we say we hold to
consistently God. But yeah, i've gravity worked the way we thought it would, especially with somebody like a conservative evangelical who presents themselves as the moral compass of the world. Like how you can put a man in power who's been married three times, all his kids got different mamas, with three different mamas, and cheated on all of them, one of which is with the porn star just who
has done incredibly shady business. Like I just don't one would think that that would not fly with this group of people.
And know same people.
To consider a man who has been married once to the same woman and all his children got the same mom and daddy and there's no scandals and no infidelity, and no stories about his personal dealings has ever surfaced.
How he's the Antichry? I don't know.
Man, gravity just doesn't work the way he used to. But that's not what I'm trying to get at here. What I'm trying to get at here is there are what we call essentials and non essentials and things that we just can disagree on. But at the end of the day, you're in we're all in the same house. But then there are things that has been decided that this is a line in the sand. If you believe this thing, then you're out. That would essentially mean that
you're not a Christian because you can't. This is a do not pass go issue. The issue is the people that have decided that what those lines are are basically self appointed, Like nobody agreed that y'all would be the arbiters of what is actually sound biblic doctrine, as they would say, you self selected that. And I'm saying this from the inside of the room, not the outside. And like pretty much everything else in the world, the people.
That did that were the white boys.
The white boys decided the who have followed the church history through the Gospel going north up into Europe, rather than going south, which is where it went first, it went southeast rather than northwest.
First.
I'm talking about leaving Judea, leaving the areas of Israel and Palestine where he's from. As a as a fun aside, you know, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. You know where Bethlehem is. It's in the West Bank, It's in Palestine. So there's that, and and and the issue with these white boys is kind of like, of course, I'm using this in a remarkably broad sense because it's a very specific white boy that decided they are the arbiters of truth.
Is not all of them, Okay, So Jesus just just stay with me, just like I know every black people don't gangbang, I understand we talking about, but follow me here. As a cultural trend, the white evangelical has decided they are the keepers of the flame. Now what's even crazier is, if you want to get more into the weeds, it's really the white American Calvinists. And if you really want to get wonky, Calvinists aren't actually evangelical and they don't
even agree because you have Baptist Calvinists. But anyway, we're getting in the weeds here, just like if we were to get into like a DC and Marvel argument, we would be in the weeds in a way that would make your eyes go blurry.
But they've decided that they're the artists.
But the thing is, like, if you understand the trajectory of Christian thought, what is considered orthodox or correct has changed over time and has continued to it even changes within the Bible. People realizing that like, hey, maybe they didn't understand what they believed well enough, or culture has changed or science has changed, and like knowledge has changed. And now it's like the idea of like, well we
have better tools. Are academia is better, There's better tools, there's better ways to translate this ancient Aramaic perish the thought. But actually speaking to people from the region that would possibly tell you that they don't have to be Christian or Jewish, They could just tell you, like, yeah, that's.
Not what that worris means. My mama says it all the time.
I mean this, We now know more about context history, archaeology, anthropology. We just know more to realize that, Yeah, these dudes that are interpreting the Bible from the fifteen hundreds were reading from a Latin translation, you know what I'm saying, which was not even what it was written in in the first place. Those like realizing that, like yeah, like
they just made mistakes, and it's an honest mistake. And now that we've made this honest mistake, like you dude, we got to change the way we think about these things. Like that's happening and has continued to happen all the time. But if you've decided that you're the guys who gets to decide what is right and wrong, then everybody else is wrong. Like what prop give an example, well, six creation, seven day rest and the earth being six thousand years old.
Bible nerds now have been trying to say forever that like y'all reading this all wrong. That's not even what it says, or even what it's trying to say. You're missing the point. This isn't surveillance camera footage where you watch the world being made. No, it's not the point. It's a theological statement about purpose and order. That's what create means. But anyway, and the Bible nerds are trying to tell you it's not wings a change move.
Very slowly.
Now, having said all that, know that the white evangelical only represents eleven percent of the full Christian world. My lord, we haven't even talked about the Spanish speaking Catholic world, Like you're barely anybody. The problem is they just have the microphone. And what comes with the microphone is power,
a power that was broken at least in America. You could argue all the way back to like Phylish Slapley and the religious right and John Bursch Society and Autumn weirdos, but ultimately it's a power move to preserve a way of life that essentially upheld white supremacy. I mean, I
don't know how else to explain it. Masquerading as family values, and there have been people inside the church that have been ringing the alarm forever that you know, maybe one day I'll bring those people around, like my man Jamar Tisby or the boys show Baraka the homegirl Sandra. I always say her name wrong because she's actually Puerto Rican, but she married his wife. I always forget her her how to say her last name? Hopes the ball anyway,
she's got the thing called chasing justice. Like is people outside really trying to like correct the ship? But either way, this is the world we live in and inside of that a lot of people, including myself. Now, I didn't grow up as a white evangelical obviously, but I come from the wing of the church that has in a lot of ways been the conscious of America. Like who actually has kept forced America to come to task, stand on business and keep their promises and correct the wrongs
that they've done. And time and again it's been to black church abolitionists, civil rights movement, like as far as the church is concerned, it's been us that's been like a NAFAM now is not without its own problems, of course, but point being, there has been issues in are justice and liberation that have not been tenable, and it's been us that's been like standard, but anyway, I'm off topic.
Inside of that are truly loving humans who just happen to go to these churches and grow up in these spaces that, from all you know, are just making you a decent human being. And then there are situations that make that untenable. Sometimes it's around your sexuality. Sometimes it's around again your skin color. Sometimes it's around the treatment of others and of immigrants, and sometimes it's around politics.
And you find yourself in a situation where this spiritual belief and practice has served you well and like you truly believe you know Jesus Lord and died for your seeings like you or or something somewhere close to that. You understand that like loving God and neighbor is like still the gold that I got, like I want to be I want.
To be like Jesus.
But this context, culture, and direction has made your life made it untenable. I can't stay here, I can't in good conscious even if I'm trying to be like the Jesus I say, I profess.
That means I can't keep rocking with y'all. What do you do then?
Who are the people that still want to hold on to the tenets of their faith, but are just like, I cannot fuck with the rest of this.
I just it, just it. The math is in math, it's impossible.
Allow me to introduce you to Kevin Garcia, and I'm gonna let him tell you more about himself. All right, you up in there now. I have done an extensive intro already, great for the pod people that you will hear when this actually airs, or I could play it before you, but anyway, it's basically what I texted you already where I'm like, all right, listen, this is about to be a nightmare year as far as the public discourse. Maybe our personal lives might be amazing, yep, say.
It, but god, I'm that's what I'm gaming for, right, That's what I want.
Yes, yes, that's the goal.
But I do a show, as you know, called Hood Politics will prop where essentially the idea is these politicians, political buness, whatever it happens, whatever's happening in the world.
These people are not smarter than you. They just use another language.
Right, And I am pretty sure your experiences growing up where you grew up actually equipped you more than you think you do to understand what's going on in the way world. Right, So normally what I try to do is I try to stay ahead.
I try not to get more.
Than four episodes ahead in the can because of how fast things happen. Right this year, I'm like eight weeks ahead because so much happens, so.
Much is happening, there's so much to cover, and there's like it's all necessary.
It's all necessary. You can't skip anything.
It's like all hands on deck education so that we can like not even like like full fully education, but just like equipping people exactly. Yeah, I think this is necessary to yeah, to not totally slip into two fascism.
Absolutely.
There's Yeah, there's this like amazing silver place silvered Metals second place run happening on the Republican side, where y'all just so fighting for a consolation prize for some reason,
so wild to watch. Yeah, and you're about to lose to someone who didn't even show up, who ain't come to none of the shit and has ninety one cases and who go put it, which is why you're here, part of why you're here, and who is probably gonna put him in office is a voter block who looked at a man ten years ago, who was the husband of one wife, who had no scandals, who raised his children in ways that are moral and have a typical you know, like very typical, kept them out of the spotlight,
who have like perfect, perfect children, and chose the guy with three baby mamas who cheated on all of them, mamas with adult porn stars, paid them off, cheated on everything.
It used to be a woman, lie talk to the woman, lied about it, and.
Discriminated against black people for housing in the twentieth century, like in the in the eighties and nineties, like not even in the seventies.
But the black dudes, danti Christ got it.
So a sign of the Antichrist, and this is the tribulation any day now we are going.
To be raptured up.
Yeah, like yeah, so so so so the church folks chose that dude, right, which is a thing. While at the same time, it's wars breaking out all over the country, all over the world that we somehow are funding.
Uh there what money? That's the other thing I want to know.
That's where y'all Where are y'all fighting this one?
Yet it's like we cannot, we cannot forgive your student loan debts.
We cannot help just really build the money. I really we really need to go bomb these kids. You have to war, just.
And one of these wars are any of our business on top of that, right, So just all of this happens and here we are, and then I haven't even got to cover the just the gift that twenty twenty three ended us with of George Santos, Like, I haven't even got to get that one out.
Well, just god, if we can even touch on that crazy silly moment. Dude.
It was like, it was like, please tell me watch the z Way interview with him.
Of course I did. I was like, you like it.
I must feel I must think for for the gaze, it has to feel like he's like a he's like a Colon Powell character that we thought of for black people to where you're like, god, damn it, you get a black man in position to really affect change. You're super proud of what he is, and then you do this shit and you're just like.
But not that, like that, not like it's just like it was like this was how how did we huh? It's like it's it's really like a case of like how did it happen? Like and I look at George Santos and I'm just like, from it's one of these really interesting things if you look at it from like,
this is the problem. Politics has become entertainment, yes, absolutely, and spectacle absolutely, And so this is also part of the problem that I can look at this and you know, some gays would say, oh my god, I can iconic or like it's like as oh yeah, that's iconic gay behavior or something like that, And of course it's in jest because it's actually quite horrifying that absolutely, yeah, who lied about everything and then got removed, is still trying to stand.
Tinto's down on what he did.
He's still standing all business like and you respect it.
But it's like as as a grift, yeah, I mean, like scammer's gonna scam so like you did as far as you can, but just like you're still no Donald J. Trump, unfortunate you still JV. Yeah, man, the grift of it all. And I think the thing like I watched the Iowa caucus, so if that puts us in a timeline for anyone listening that just happened this past Tuesday and seeing how the numbers have jumped up, but like almost doubled in every category of people who were supporting him back in
twenty sixteen. Yeah, and you know, like you know, we thought like, oh yeah, like we're finally you know. I was like part of like the crew was like okay, so like not my first choice for a president, but we gotta do it. We got to do it.
Like you know.
I was also like we were like going hard for Stacy Abriams here in Georgia, and it was like the heartbreak of heartbreaks, but like we were just like this
was supposed this was supposed to be our years. Yeah, right, right right, and jokes jokes, and like I feel like even those of us who like we're all like hardcore Obama campaigners too, Like, you know, we look back on it now, we see, you know, how many bombs he dropped on different places, and we never heard about it talked about it because we just didn't know what we
didn't know. Yeah, and now it's almost just like, you know, to quote the NAP Bishop her self, trust to Hersey, we have been pambou soled.
Yes, facts and like in you know, my my partners obviously Latina and her thing was like in the Latino community, they were like we was proud, but you know, he was the deporter in chief, Like he parted more people.
He parted more people than any president before him. You know, it's just this.
He was just nice about it, you know, and that's it just sucks, man. So I wanted to every month this year bring in people actually putting good in the world. So while we're talking about all this stuff, like you feel dooms, yeah, like all the doom that and there is enough. There are people out there telling better stories, creating better narratives, even in spaces that one would think
are irredeemable. And that's where Kevin Garcia comes in. So my first I saw your merch before I saw you, and I was like, oh, hell yeah, so your merch says bad theology kills and I was like, oh shit, like this is so And why it's so brilliant to me is because the like the angry Calvinists would buy your shirt not knowing you know what I'm saying that like, because they say the same shit, the fool you know what I'm saying saying, Yeah, they would say the same thing,
you feel me. And then the you know, the rolling on the ground talking and tongue Pentecosta would buy your shirt. You know what I'm saying, not knowing you know what I'm saying, What's really going on here? And you sit in this amazing intersection. What I said in the interview was like, there are people who have felt as though there were things about their christian and I'm saying like international, not just like Western Evangelical, like Christian upbringing or base
that really still resonates with them. But staying there was untenable. Was just I can't stay in this culture. There are things like you said that the alternative is taking my own life or someone taking.
It for me.
The alternative is death death? Right, where do I go? You know what I'm saying? And I did a deep dive and I was like, this, dude's a g like who like.
I have different about this?
Yeah, Kev's different, right, So now I'm gonna let you speak for yourself.
I did all that, soh So.
I mean you've juiced up my ego in a nice way, especially because I was feeling like shit today.
So this is great.
I tell you, like, nah, you you you a terror former man. You you you build, you building a bigger world year. So keV, all right, start us off the background to what we're doing now.
Yeah, sure, in two minutes.
Helps kidding, No, no, no, I can do like the elevator pitch because you know we've all who can't exactly you've been talking on stage as long as we have.
Yes.
So, Hi, my name is Kevin Miyl Garcia pronouns they them, although like I like they he and she just like depends on how I'm looking, looking like a dude. But I also like to tell people just like if you
can lean towards them, I would prefer it. I am the author of two books, Bad Theology Kills was the first one and subtitle Undoing Toxic Belief and Reclaiming Your Spiritual Authority Brian I. I wrote that book could kind of like help with the first half of my life of asking the question like why do I believe what I do? Because I grew up in a good Christian home. My mom was the worship leader, my uncle was the pastor. I got baptized at age nine because I was I felt the Holy goes.
Because you're supposed to God's moving.
Yeah yeah, And I really do think from that moment on, I had this connection to the divine, to the christ and that was one thing I never questioned, which is very funny even after even now, as I say, like, I don't even know if I'm a Christian, but we'll get to that in a second. I realized I was
queer in high school. My dad added me to my mom, and then I was in x gay ministry with Exodus International if you wish I had, But I was in that world for like twelve years of my own volition because like they promised hope for change, and then when they shuttered their doors and said we've made a grave mistake in the most literal sense of the word, I
started questioning things. But I still kind of held onto a not a kind of I held onto a traditional belief for years, you know, fell from one pentecostal cult into like a missionary cult, and.
Like did missionary work for a while.
And then when I came out in that space, they were like, even though, like I'm not gonna lie, I go back to I have my old journals from that time. I was such a self righteous ass dude. I was zealous and I was trying to beast. I was the best Christian. Like if we're looking at the points, yes, I won, Yeah, and I was so mad because nobody else was as.
Serious as I was. I'm just like, damn, damn putting it into work, y'all.
Yeah, I got the I got the grace of the Cross, but I need less of the grace because yeah, I.
Don't need grace.
I need I need jewels in my crown, which yes, that's what I want.
Yes.
And so when I got kicked out of that world, best thing that could have happened to me, and I kind of started carving out of life for myself in Atlanta, h I was big into like I used to be somebody who was like considered myself a reformer and wanted to be somebody who actively organized within non affirming spaces to bring about affirmation. Then I realized that doesn't fucking work.
So so for y'all who there is a the vast majority these listeners have no idea what any of these terms mean. What they mean is the idea is that within the Christian within the Christian tradition, especially in the States because Europe is different. They they've had this conversation decades ago.
Yes, there is this space where there are.
Churches who have gotten to a place to where they're completely accepting of the queer community, and the term for that is affirming we are gay. Affirming like I go to a church like this, where are we are lesbian? You know, pastors and this it's queer, it's trance or whatever, right, And then there are other places that they would call gay welcoming, which is like you could be here, just don't tell nobody, like just don't doming, but not affirming. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
like don't don't welcome. And most of the time that's where the Black church is, where in general it's like we all know the choir directors gay, Like everyone knows this, you know, and we just don't talk about it, you know, you just we know those two antis are not those two ants. Yes they are not best friends. She's not bringing her her best friend, that's her boot, Like we know it, you know, you just don't talk about it.
And then there are the vast.
Majority that are like y'all going to hell, like you you can just outright rejecting, Yes, yeah, you can be here, And a lot of times it's like it's real weird because like you could be here. We think you're talented, you're gifted, you're an amazing singer just you just you just can't be talk about officially in leadership, yeah, or
you can't talk about it. It's either don't ask, don't tell, and you can fully participate, yeah, or you do tell and you limit your participation in the space for ever.
But we love you, but we love you. But we love you, but we're going to continue to do the thing that hurts you. And how a friend is called an abusive relations an abusive love.
Yeah.
So that's what you felt like was your mission for a while, because it was always missional, always very dedicated to like the institution of the church.
Yeah, and uh, you know, as I as my my person just began to expand you know, it was you know, as I read text from other faith, as I you know, started like my yogaic practices and actually leaning into yoga not just as like a floor exercise that people do and like make you look sexy after you you know, stole it from everybody else in India, but like as an actual spiritual path and a way of orienting yourself to the world.
It changed my life.
And after like as I'm going into my yoga practices, it like sent me like still like I have a weird devotion to Jesus as my teacher and my friend and my brother. Yeah, and that led me to begin showing other people how to cultivate spiritual practices for themselves. That felt good, That helped process some of the trauma that you've been carrying in your body for too long, and ask the question, Okay, so, like who is God to me now? And how am I going to connect
to that thing? Whether I call it Source or love the universe, or maybe I still call it like you know, you know, call Jesus is part of that. It doesn't
really matter to me. It matters that you connect with it, because what I'm aware of and what I truly believe is now more than ever, it is really, really important that we keep our spiritual practices because this shit is only going to get harder out here speaking of all the things we talked about before, and we need more people who are alive and awake and aware.
So that we.
Don't lose more of what we already have. It's like it's both like for a for personal liberation, but your personal liberation will help lead you to collective liberation. It's like the most delicious thing in the world and That's what I wrote about in my second book, which is called What Makes You Bloom, And it just came out last week, and I'm really proud of you.
Oh let's go. We'll drop the link in the bio, well not in the bio show notes. Yeah.
I think what resonates about your story so much to me is, you know I I the different sort of.
Like God tips shot such your talk. Sorry, yes she saw a squirrel and was I love it so real? Come here, come here girl. Good it's it shot out and now we can continue all the behind ambassaards listeners.
I I have these not the same, but I have these sort of eras of the times or traditions that I existed in within within the faith too.
There's my.
Like my family of origin, you know, Citizens Design Missionary Baptist Church. You know what I'm saying, Like with with you know, with my my my grandma on them, you know that was like this is our family church, right, And then there was extended family. And then there was the like the church my parents found. Like I come from an inner city tradition. We weren't necessarily like evangelical. We were just like y'all, don't join gangs and get people pregnant.
Like that was the extent, you know what I mean. It wasn't.
We had elements of purity culture, but we really didn't have that, you know, the sort of you know, white bread, because we weren't white people, you know what I mean. So, so we didn't have a lot of the sort of the issues that a lot of the other like American churches had, you know, we were we were very involved in civic duties, you know, working with the poor. Like you would ask anybody's grandma. Where your grandma out on Tuesday? She's at the homelessl ch you know. So we were
already in that. I'm the child of a black panther, so I have histories of you know, the civil rights movement in Malcolm X and just all this like longer richer tradition of you know, the Black Church, you know, inner City Church in a lot of ways being the moral compass of America. You know, So you have you have, I have that in my heritage, you know. But I started reading more. Like I said, my father was, he
was a street duty. He's also very intelligent. So like I was aware of Muslim traditions, I was aware of you know, African practices I was aware of. You know, I lived in a Mexican neighborhood, so I was aware of just other cultures. And I felt like for me, the next era for me was like I didn't get the academic rigor and where it was like this was very much about like liberation, but liberation only you know what I mean.
But I'm like, but I'm smart, you know.
So I thought somehow or another, I was smarter than my great grandma, like the holiest person I ever met, you know what I mean.
Like I thought I was smarter than her.
So that's where the soare into like reform theology caught me because I was like this is this is it's academic, you know, so I can prove it.
Yes, I can prove it.
So I was like I was drinking it up, but I was drinking it up with a foundation of coming from liberation, you know. So for me, I was like it was it was very easy for me to any of the other like really toxic stuff at least for my perception to just kind of wash off me because I didn't come from this, you know.
So I was like, I'm not swimming in these waters.
I have this other foundation, right, that and so, and then you become a public figure.
And then at that point, at that point, Nashville comes in the scene.
And again, I'm from California, so I didn't know nothing about nobody.
I thought people were a straight shooters. They'll tell you what they're thinking. That's what happened. That's what happened. I thought.
You know, you walk into a building in Nashville and there's a Bible verse on the wall. You're like, Oh, it's dope. You know, because I'm from Cali. So I'm like, that's crazy. Y'all got like, dang, that's cool. I got religion out here. Y'all really be you know. First first question might ask you was like where you go to church? And I'll be like, what, like, yeah, yeah, you know. So to me, I was like, damn, y'all really about it.
And then it was like and then and then the facade came down quick where I was like, oh, you motherfuckers are racist, this is it?
Yeah, And I was like that so wow. And they don't even know it.
You don't even know it, and and and the the first thing for me was just this whole like I couldn't get my brain around this, like just just this love for the Puritans and yeah, I'm like again, I'm the child of a panther. And I'm like, are y'all are we looking at the same timeline? You talking about the slave owners like we're the greatest, Like what did you talk about?
These are the don't even talk about that part. They came here for religious freedom. Okay, That's what they came to America for. That's what I learned about the Puritans. And I'm like and I'm like, also so they could keep their slaves and burn their witches. And I'm like, yes, every good American they were the like even of their time, they were the Pharisees. I'm like, even of their time, they were the bad guys. Like I don't understand why y'all loved him so like so they really said like
like no drinking, no smoke, and no sex before marriage. Also, if we even suspect you of any of these things, we're going to put you in the fucking stocks.
You're going to stocks, yes, like wild And I'm like you're talking about the Valley of Vision And I'm like, okay, so you had time, So you're telling me in a.
In a Gregorian error.
You had time to lay in a pasture and contemplate the stars, which means that no one's growing your food or someone else is growing your food, and that someone else's growing your food are my ancestors. So you're telling me that they had their theology right because they gave black people the gospel. I'm like, you're talking about you're talking about the country, the nation that had the church four hundred years before you did.
Like, is that what you're trying to tell on me right now? My mind?
So for me, I was like I kind of had the same thing. I was like, oh, maybe y'all don't know, so let me start telling you.
And then when they went and then you say and then you start telling them and they're like, well, we don't want to.
Be divisive, Yes, yes, you know.
It's that's the other thing is that it's this there's a dedication to the institution in such a way. Well because like if the church crumbles or like the not even the church, but just their institution. Because everybody is
so individual, they think that they're one thing. Is God's mission, Yes to this city and the cities of the world, you know, like city, Yeah, it's it's it's like you don't really like they don't even see themselves as part of like a greater tradition of Christianity because they think if they're they're only on a business model.
And it started and it started with Calvin. Like that's the part that bugged me out. I'm like, it starts with the Reformation, or they starts with Martin Luther. I'm like, you know that that's that's like fifteen hundred years later, Like are you are y'all serious?
Like you did?
Just like like this is the point. And also Martin Luther, while brilliant, bound by his time because that man hated Jewish people in a big wait. Nobody wants to talk about that the foundation to talk about Nobody want to talk about that.
He's us an amazing called Jews and their lies come. He wrote that book, wrote that book. Your boy Johnathan Edwards was like, who was progressive for his time, was like, you know, if the Africans and the savages and the savage and the savages, the Native Americans were, if they're human, that means they're made in the image of God, which means we should give them the Gospel.
I'm just not sure they're human. That's your boy John at the Edwards. That's your boy.
John had been in us. It's not sure yet that's your boy. That's that's your church father. So so to me, I was like, oh yeah, this the cement has settled, Like oh yeah, like we're yeah. I was like, oh, y'all okay. And the idea like which I also mentioned in the intro, which you didn't hear but you'll know now, is like we're talking about not even eleven percent of the full Christian experience. Like you're eleven percent and you've made yourself to police for the rest of it.
Anyway, Yeah, we just happened to exist.
But like, but like you, there were things about this, you know, the conquering line of Judah, you know, Christ the victor, this liberator, this, this you know Moses character that you know again for our tradition is like we look at Exodus and we're like that's it. Like, look,
you know, we're moving from slavery to freedom. You feel me, whether it's in our physical bodies or in our spiritual bodies, this narrative of again, of liberation is something that it still resonates, and a liberation that's not just that's not just internal, that's not just the personal, but it is collective and it is for the world. Like I'm like, I still I still find this a beautiful starting to me, Yes,
I still find this a beautiful story. And and then I see that story all over the world like in other faiths, in other traditions and other this.
And I'm like, hello, that's really it. Yeah.
The further I went into yogic studies, the more I found I'm just like, oh, wait, I know this story, I know this or I know this idea by another name. Yes, yes, And that just for me, like just it didn't like freak me out. It made me so excited because I'm just like that the same spirit that raised Christs from the dead, it's the same one talking to Bagua and Ninianan does, the same one talking to potentially is the same one talking to the prophet Mahin, And it's the
same one talking to et cetera, et cetera. It's the same one talking to you and your still small voice when you're really quiet and actually are listening.
H h. And and then even on top of that, and and all of those people's in traditions had to deal with the bullshit, just like we had to deal with our bullshit, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, so, but the but the story still resonates. So I think you coming back around to that and then landing on this phrase, bad theology kills hm. Can you expand that a little more to tell me what you mean by that? Yes, I mean, it's just it's very clear. I hope it is that theology kills period.
And to add more words to that, I feel like you boil it down. It's three words long. But what I mean by bad theology is that any thought about God that would lead someone inevitably to the conclusion that their life is not worth continuing for any reason is bad. And I think it's worth questioning at minimum. If your theology is causing people to kill themselves, yeah, then then you should question that. And so I started with like the question of queerness and being you know, can you
be ga and Christian? That was the question I started out with because that's what I was when I started that journey. Because the thought that homosexuality or queerness or transness was an aberration or said another way, a abomination for God. You can't know unless you've walked through it. The sheer depth of shame you feel when you realize it's just not going away, and you think that this source of all love, who you thought was on your side,
actually thinks you're disgusting. Yeah, Like you learn to be disgusted with yourself and to the point where, like you convince yourself that it would be better for me to end my sinful body than to continue on sending in the world or causing other people to sin. That's going to be my contribution. That's what I thought, And that is so sad.
I'm like, my eyes are watering right now, I just thinking about it.
That's what I thought. And those are the thoughts that nearly killed me. And then when I began to think something different. You know, a good theology, you know, like Jesus said, you're gonna know a tree by its fruits. Good trees bear good fruit. Bad trees bear bad fruit,
and they cannot bear the opposite thing. And so if the theology that says that marriage is only between one man and one woman for forever and it's you know, causing someone to kill themselves, I mean, I really think you should reconsider dude, Like and because the thing is I say this in the book, I say it all over the place.
It's just like I know dead people.
I know people who did not survive in order to tell their story. I know people from my Exodus days. So many people who just were the most faithful people in the world and just it became so dissonant within themselves and they felt so bad because we can't help but love who we love. Mary Oliver says, you just got to let the soft animal of your body love
what it loves. And we wouldn't do that because of somebody else's thought about God and what they thought God thought, rather than going in and finding what does what do what God?
What does God think about me?
Wow?
And there was a thought that finally came up as I was like working on you know, myself that really allowed me to get free in a bigger way, was like, okay, well, like I said, fuck it, even if God will not love me after this, I will love me no matter what.
And that is the thought that helped me survive and allowed me to get through because I recognize that the love that I was seeking after was not going to be found in another church or another pulpit, or in another or in a better theology, but into recognizing that I was so good, I'm so wonderful. Yeah, and when I believe something opposite to that, it does this. It causes me to cry because it's not true. Yeah, I'm
so good and so worthy. And when I remember that, when I can focus on that and just hold that in my attention, the peace passeth understanding comes upon me, and that to me is more real than anything I did in church, you know, and like it also to finally come to that record like realization allows me to know that like none of it's wasted.
Yea, oh, sorry to go off, buddy. Yeah.
When I say that theology kills, I mean that there are things that we practice that cause people to hurt themselves and if not to physically take them lives, to live a life so small that it's painful to exist. And it does not have to be this way.
I didn't even know how to, like, I don't even know how. I'm just like, dude, Yeah, That's why I'm so serious about this too, is because it's really like news to some people. Yeah, this is news to some people.
Yes, I I thought to myself again as like, obviously this is not my story.
But sure.
The way that it resonated with me was like I in a number of ways. There were things that I'm like, Okay, if I'm coming to this tradition, this theology, and you're saying, okay, there is a you know, we're going to do the depravity theology. Okay, there's a depravity in my soul. Yes, that needs to be redeemed. I can accept that. Okay, you know, sure, but I'm coming to that as myself, Like, Okay, there are there are things about me that, for example, like I mean, I come to the Cross if you
will as a black man. I don't leave the cross not black, Like I'm still a black dude, you know what I mean. I'm like, these are things that I can't that the conversion salvation doesn't erase that I'm still a black dude, Like is what I am?
You know?
And so when I would hear people speak in terms of membership in this kingdom means you have to lay everything down, and I'm like, well, put your identity in crisis to truly erase. Yeah, you think you are, And I'm like, well, what do you everything? They're like, yeah, you know, there's no Jew or Greek male or female And I'm like, but are you married to a female? Like I was she still a female? I thought you
said there was no male or female. And I'm like, do you hear, like what did you say like that verse in context for a second number one? Yeah, yeah, I'm just like, he's not talking about the obliteration. He's talking about hierarchy. He's talking about hierarchy. Yeah, there's so many things that have been just so abused that if someone like you said, if someone sat down next to you and was like, that's not what that shit says at all. The nineteen forty nine thing that like holmostsexual
wasn't wasn't even in a book until nineteen forty nine. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. And it's a bad translation. You don't know what that word says.
But you've never read it because you've only read it and badly translated English, which was translated from Latin, which is not even what I'm written in.
Yeah. Yeah, so like, yeah, it's awful. Oh my god, you read Araonaic. That is crazy. Yeah, you know, yeah, so the school is different. So so I say that to say I resonated when I thought to myself about Okay, so my own sexuality. I can when when fifth grade happened, and I'm changing names for the innocent because I don't.
Know who this is.
But when sure Kelly Johnson sparked, finally sparked the boob and I caught that, and I caught the side of it. I don't know what happened. I just something in me, something in me with bump. And I was like, hello, twelve, Hello, hell, that is called testosterone.
What you are having.
You don't have to pee, this is this is a normal, this is what happens. And I was like, this isn't and like every twelve year old boy, this is incredibly inconvenient.
This is very embarrassing.
I don't I wish this didn't happen all the time, but it did so so I'm like, I didn't. I don't know what to tell you. It's what happened. So as I sat, as I sat across from some of my closest friends, who finally as we became older, was like, oh wait, I'm gay.
It was their experience was exactly the saying. It was like, I don't know what to tell you. Bobby walked by and this happened.
I don't know It was incredibly inconvenient and very embarrassing, but triple the embarrassment that you're experiencing because it wasn't supposed to happen at all, you know.
Yeah, so I remember Robbie. Yeah, ninth grade Art Foundations class, let's go. I like, I remember I noticed him, But I was.
Like, why why do I keep looking? Why do we keep looking? Why do I keep looking?
Why do I keep And I was like, this is what they're talking about. This is attraction. I was like, shit, yeah right, yeah, it's really Yeah. It's like, well, this is bad. I can't imagine I honestly cannot put myself living in the experience you lived in and feeling that like surubstantial. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you can't turn it off. I can't turn it off, you know what I'm saying. I was thought to control it, but I can't turn it off. No one told me to, No one told
me that, not like this, like you I'm saying. So, yeah, when I started looking, don't touch. It was just like, don't look or touch or think about it or even like it. You're not allowed to like this. And I'm like, if, like, how did I wouldn't be much more convenient if I didn't.
Yeah, you know, trust me and believe, like, yeah, I think it's very funny when anybody thinks about sexuality, especially when it comes to like as a choice, Like your attractions are phenomena in some ways, there's not a there's not a gene to it, like even though like there's certain things that we can point to maybe, but there's not a definitive Yeah, this is why this is.
And also that's not even how humanity is even defined like that and that's it and that's a boring story.
Yeah, I'm just like, Gene, you're like what, I'm just like I like to think of it as like this is just one of the like most beautiful, like especially in humanity, we get to experience love and and and meaning and just you know, to again Mary Oliver, let the soft animal of our body loves amazing.
I think that's the that's God. I think that's God expressing God's Self through each and every one of us. God wanting to know what it is to be in a body and an experience like mine. God wanting to know and you know, live the world through youth. This is a very process theology kind of position. That I
taken in this mouth. But I really do think that when I stopped seeing like, oh, like you know, like you said, you lose your identity in Christ, right, and then anything that comes out that's outside of their prescription is an aperation or an abomination, and you've got to reel it back in, you know, or you realize, luve be too gay, don't be too anything besides this, Yeah, because the out that that what gets pushed out of.
That machine when you're saying is our identities in Christ. It's like, man, this identity looks more like yours. I'm like, no, it's just your culture. Like what you're saying is how I want to come out and become you. And I'm like, I'm not you, So I say you, I can never be me from being you.
Want to be.
Yeah, But then I'm going, I'm going what what really like started me down? This like evolution of being like, oh no, I'm on cabsite? Is uh you start hearing if? When when I hear anything, I go when when someone says a statement, whether it's a law, policy or whatever, my first thought is, how is this going to affect the oppressed? How do you talk to how does this affect my own aspect black people, and how has this
affect black people forever? Right? So if I hear someone talking about whatever they're talking about and it reminds me of how you talked about black people, then I'm like, oh, this is wrong. So so for me, it was like what we what?
We love? We love the trans, we love the clear queer. It's just I don't want.
Them around our children, you know, or don't make me, don't shove it down, you know, well as long as they stay over there. I was like, huh, it's interesting, So you you know what I'm saying. So you don't want your children to be friends?
Wow?
Okay, so you don't think so you think that them asking for just equal protection under the Constitution is somehow an affront to your freedoms?
I remember that? Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.
Like the thing that comes to mind right now especially is just like the fight for trans children having access to what they need when really there's like well parents writes, parents are some just like there's nothing more parents rights centric than allowing a doctor and a parent and their child to make it get with themselves.
I don't understand. I thought that's what you well.
That's what you wanted not to mention that gender affirming care. It doesn't just extends beyond trans kids. Like, yeah, children have been you know, children with vaginas and reproductive systems. Girls are starting their periods sooner and sooner because who knows the hell why, and some as early as third grade, and so in order to stop that from happening, they introduce puberty blockers until they hit you know, an appropriate weight.
Yeah, totally.
And that's not that allows them to be a child, that allows them to really be who they are rather than having to grow up more quickly. And SIS girls are a higher recipient of puberty blockers than anybody else. Women who start menopause early. My mother, for example, has been on hormone replacement therapy since she was thirty when she got menopause super early.
Wow. So I'm just.
Like, like you're thinking about like a gender firming care. It's not just about trans folks who you know, need to get surgeries, although that is part of it, but it's it's it's saving children's lives, it's saving CIS people's lives.
Yeah, And I remember how you wanted you wanted us to stay out of your personal choices and for you to not wear a mask.
I know where did when? Did? Where did that?
How about you stay out of my family's business, my business, the government out of our business. Like yeah, I thought you wanted the government out of our business. Now you want the government in our business. I'm confused anyway, Uh, I want to try to like land this plane here with landa some of some of the beauty that you're doing.
So I know you do these? You do these? Are they counseling sessions? Are they? Yeah? So what are they? Yeah?
Like tell them about the and and some if you can some like beautiful like success stories if you will.
Yeah. People reclaiming their their spirituality.
So I am what I started doing a couple of years ago. I've been calling them spiritual recovery cohorts, Okay, And it's basically what it sounds like. Do you want to recover your spirituality after you've lost it, after you've burnt your faith to the ground and like deconstructed into oblivion. Yeah, because I really again, like it's possible to feel connected to God, to love to your truest self, and you can,
like it doesn't take that much. It takes a little bit of intention and willingness and so over the you know the class I'm teaching right now that begins on March fifth, by the way, So if it's not but March fifth, come hang out with us.
It'll be out by this.
Yes, But what I teach is basically like, here's how we meditate, here's how we get quiet. And also when the thoughts come into our mind, this is how we deal with this is not deal with that. This is how we work with them when our big feelings start coming up. This is how we work with them when our inner child needs attention. This is how we love them when our body is feeling pain. This is how we help ourselves. And I don't tell people anything that
they have to believe. I tell them, don't believe anything I tell you either, question everything, test everything to see if it's true. And what I'm telling people to test them, just like if you give yourself as little as five minutes a day, you can feel so connected to yourself and your life can change in a beautiful direction. And by change, I mean you can feel better. Yeah, that's
like the baseline I keep. What I tell people is like your spiritual practice, if you just make it really simple this is about me feeling good because I tell people I don't do it because I'm holy. I do it because I'm the most stressed out motherfucker I know. And if I'm not connected to myself, to source to love, I'm going to be a bitch. And I say that in like, you know, the exact thing. I'm mean, kind
of mean to people and so like. But again when i'm but when I am connected, like you know, I can cry about how beautiful and wonderful I feel because I'm connected to that source. It's like, you know, you can strip all the esoterism out of it. You don't have to believe in quote unquote God to be a spiritual person.
You know.
Again, it's like, I don't care what you call it. You're just like I want you to be open to the possibility that maybe there is great love for you here. That's my favorite line is there is great love for you here. And what I love about the work, like I've worked with everyone from like pastors to therapists and chaplains and then everyday people who are just like trying to like figure out how to create a spiritual life
on purpose. Yeah, And what I love is like a few highlights are like people getting rid of the idea of being afraid of hell. I was like, I don't believe in hell, but I'm sure scared I'm going there. That's dead and I'm dead ass. It's like yeah, and it's like like we all laugh at it, but also it's just like, when I really think about it, I'm afraid of separation from God.
Even now.
It's like, yeah, well would you like to Yeah, it's valid, you know, like, yeah, I fel like this is the center of all creation and my being and I don't want to be separated. Yeah, And it's like, oh, like you when you realize that heaven is the realization that
you never left grace like you've always been. It's just that our awareness to Love's presence gets smucked up by everything, and so like, you know, being able to see people like move from a place of like feeling very cut off, feeling like I cannot God is unsafe, spirituality is not for me anymore, to learning how to connect with their heart again and learning and like being able to say, like, even on my worst days, I'm worthy of love and feeling good and even on my best days, I'm not
anymore holy.
I'm just more connected.
It's it's people realizing that so much of their experience is in their control and they have so much more power than they know. And it's like, what would it be like for you to connect with love every single day and to see that, like, you know, to see like queer people who have been burned by religion reclaim
a spirituality for themselves. Damn is incredible to like really like people like, sorry, the way I put it, it is just like, oh, you met you finally met the Christ because you looked in the mirror, bitch and you and you loved what you saw. Congratulations. This is salvation, dude. And it's so much more simple than we have been
led to believe. And I'm just so very passionate about individuals and you know, yeah, individuals finding this out for themselves because like, imagine what we could do with all of us. Yeah, we're no longer shit talking ourselves. We're no longer trying to acquiesce to like a white version of success or a patriarchal version of relationships or an institutional version of religion. I'm so I'm so passionate people
having a relationship with God. Yeah, and it's oh it's right here, man, And that's like being able to like teach people how to do that. It's the greatest thing I get to do with my time, the greatest thing I've ever done. And like, yeah, I hope I do it for the rest of my life.
I feel like I just had a session. Man, this.
I cannot thank you enough just for what you're putting in the world and for coming.
Into our little feed here.
Man. These like, like I said, these like just these os oases of amazing shit happening, even in spaces that sound and feel terrible, that there are people out here really making the world better.
Thank you so much.
For doing this pod and just for doing doing it, you know, like you knew right, yeah, you know he was running around the world. Yeah, he was running around the world trying to be a missionary little did you know.
You know what's funny is like so many people have been prophising, oh, you're going to be a pastor. You're just set, you're setting the seeds for when you're going to.
Be a pastor.
And I was like, I'm not going to be a pastor because in my head, I think because I'm gay and I'm eventually going to I'm allowed, not allowed to do that, And in some ways I don't think.
They were wrong, because you are. I.
When I think about the role of what a pastor should be, you know, you know from from my from what I'm doing, it's like I'm shepherding people through a specific season of their life to get them to to get them going on their own path. I have a specific I work with people for a specific time in their life, and I get them back on their path.
That's my job.
And I'm honored. Thank you for having me, Thank you for being here. I also I love your you know, I love your work. I think you are such a stational artist. I can't wait to come to a dance party in La over the summer. I miss them every time, and I'm just like, I need.
Man, you have to need to. You're gonna get you a little little little long beach.
Bull out here, you know, and from your lips to goddess ears, listen, let me tell you that they there, we got them, they there.
Let's be there for you. Yep. I'll wear my I'll wear my I'll wear my shortest shorts and my I was like man man Sheldon Shuldon thighs. You know what I mean. Man's that's the thing.
It's just like I know, like, what's the best assets on me are? And it's you gotta know what you come with.
It's the it's these two juicy lips and these two tree trunk thighs. Hallelujah, come on now, fearfully and wonderfully made.
So please give them your your at mentions.
The website all that so they could grab these books.
Yes, you can follow me across the internet at the Kevin Garcia. That's th h E Kevin Garcia. My website is the Kevin Garcia. You can get my new book called what Makes You Bloom, cultivating a practice for connecting with your defined self. Whether you know find books, it's called please try to buy from like bookshop dot org if you could. My first book is called Bad Theology Kills.
Everything's available on my website. And if you're listening to this before March fifth, the Spiritual Renaissance Cohort for Spring twenty twenty four starts March five. It's going to be a badass time. I'm also opening I have spots open for one to one coaching available. It's all the website blah blah blah, and please be sure to subscribe share Hood Politics everywhere. Please please rate us in the Apple Podcast Store and on Spotify because it seriously helps with
getting our ratings up. And you hear props say that every single week probably and do you do it? No, because you're a jerk.
But you're going to do it now because I'm guilting you because I'm a puritan. Let's go on on that note.
We'll see y'all next week.
WHOA All right, now, don't you hit stop on this pod? You better listen to these credits. I need you to finish this thing so I can get the download numbers. Okay, so don't stop it yet, but listen. This was recorded in East Lost, boil Heights by your boy Propaganda. Tap in with me at prop hip hop dot com. If you're in the Coldbrew coffee we got terraform Coldbrew. You can go there dot com and use promo code Hood
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I'm a spell it for you because I know M.
A T T O S O W s ki dot com dot com. He got more music and stuff like that on there, so gonna check out the heat. Politics is a member of cool Zone Media, Executive produced by Sophie Lichterman, part of the iHeartMedia podcast network. Your theme music and scoring is also by the one and overly mattow Sowski. Still killing the beat softly, so listen. Don't let nobody lie to you. If you understand urban living, you understand politics.
These people is not smarter than you.
We'll see y'all next week, oh Man