Fire & Fury Foos! An Interivew with Michael Wolff & James Truman

Media.

All right, man, listen, this is big.

Most of the people we've invited onto this show are people like I know or are in our network. I ain't never except for the Garrison Hayes joint ever cold called anybody shout out ian you know what I'm saying. The one of the executive producers that cools on, I was like, Yo, we should get the Fire and Fury fools And I was like, the Fire and Fury Fools d Michael Wolf homie that wrote the book, Like so like actual journalist guys.

So that's this show is.

I interview the host of the Fire and Fury podcast, some brilliant, brilliant dudes.

Man.

And I'm really excited about doing this because it's almost like politics is like this is like when Easy when to the White House, you feel me, Like, you know, we had Jerry Crow juice dripping all over the White House lawn.

You feel me.

Kendrick my second Lpie had real niggas on potus line, you know.

So like.

This us putting our big boy pants on and really seeing if like I mean, I'm pretty positive, but like really testing out some of our theories on just the premise of the show that like, man, you grew up in the city, you understand politics. So here's my interview with Michael Wolfe and James Truman of the Fire and Fury podcast. We're gonna be like, y'oll how fire is the fire psych But first.

It's like this bull look is like this bull look is like this Okay.

So in a burst of bravery, just the moral fortitude and conviction all that America could muster. After watching Israel continue to deny food and services to the people of Palestine, America finally grew a backbone and wrote a letter wrote a letter to Israel, gave them a good stern talking to that if they continue to block AID, then we're gonna stop giving them them sweet sweet sweet life enders that they so enjoy. I'm telling you, I told you, if you keep doing this, we're gonna stop selling you

Is what pitchment that y'all said, You ain't gonna do shyet. So there's that.

Speaking of Israel, they killed the leader of from us on accident. And now this man, his name has become a verb sinoir when you like you threw a sinoar stick at it. Basically, I'm giving everything I have for the cause to do my absolute best. That's what his name has become now that they accidentally killed him. And when I say accidentally killed him, I mean accidentally. They've been looking for this man. He been in the tunnels,

One of them? Is that a mod sneak over there? Hey is that one of the Hey those.

Guys over there, We'll send the drone in the look. I sent the drone in the look and they was like, yes, there's some ops in there. So they shot it up, just thinking it's just a couple of ops. Turns out they killed the leader. Boy, I tell you, After igniting a famine, a continuous work after setting an area back decades all accident, they killed the man, to which the rest of the world is like, okay, so are we good now? Can you can we go get back to

But can we okay? Can we?

Can we cease the firing now? Is like you captured the you sank the battleship, you captured the checkmate, Like can we what are we still doing?

Benjamin?

None?

Y'all who over there looking like Kobe Bryant, job's not doing? Job's not doing? And like what job?

So the job is exactly what we thought your job was, which is wiped them out. That's your job, because you I feel like this should be mission accomplished. Gone get your hostages, just like this seems like you got a bargainship.

But now you know, Benjamin want them to promise, promise you'll never become mummas again. Like I don't know why.

You think that's possible anyway. In the home Front, a couple of things. Turns out the legalization of marijuana, it clearly ain't had nothing to do with marijuana. It had to do with Monday. And these new super addictive hybrids are like causing psychosis apparently, And in a big old dub people like, oh it turns out its addictive. Of course, like what substance, because addiction is us, like it's us, it's not them. Anyway, it turns out marijuana could be addicted.

I love y'all vote for me.

And while I can hold two things at the same time to meet personally, I feel like Donald Trump is just a non starter. I can still say that Auntie might fumbled his bag if she don't figure out this Gaza thing.

She's like, you just it's it's just a layup.

And I wonder if she feels the same way Jade Evans feels about admitting that Donald Trump is crazy, where she's like like, come on, y'all know I can't say this, but but we don't know, Like, well, that means that I can't trust you. So she's trying to thread a needle that it to me just seems like this is an unnecessary thread. You could just I'm telling you, like the at the very least, you could have let you could have let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, because they didn't.

They gave you the whole what has bewitched you anyway?

Because everybody know you're not gonna not support is Like we know you go support Israel, but anyway, on the whole, Trumpet it all that man said I'm gonna prosecute my enemies, and turns out he absolutely meant it. My man, My man said, he putting Liz Cheney on trial, He putting the Biden family, y'all try, He putting Kamalade Harris on trial. He putting the New York Times on trial. He like, oh, y'all need to go to diddy. Anybody don't with me,

The man said what he said, and.

He doing it at Our media continues to not learn its lesson because it keeps saying in Trump's going more and more off the rails, talking about he gonna bring in the military and use the military.

Against the America, against the enemies within.

I know he said that, and he said it because he meant it, like I just are y'all.

Y'are not paying attention, are you?

Anyway? We got a few more days. I'm so excited about our elections like this.

All right, all right, all right, ladies and gentlemen.

We got two giants, two very brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant men on our show. Here. We got Michael Wolf and James Truman. What's up, fellas a man, I'm wonderful, man. I really appreciate y'all doing this. I'm just gonna jump into it because y'all's time is very valuable.

You guys like our actual jump away jump away you.

Know, so, first of all, again, thank you. We've already done intros. My people know who you are. But generally, like the premise of this show is like growing up in urban areas, you know, and you know what I mean when I say urban areas.

Let's be be very transparent what urban means.

But the premise of the show is that navigating the different sort of auspices and spaces that you had to growing up in just America, urban areas, specifically in the nineties, I have found that we're much more equipped to understand

Y'all were there.

So I say all that to say this, like jumping in specifically about about Donald Trump himself, I feel like and a lot of the people that came up with me and and for better or for worse, are like, we all know this guy. We've I met this guy, We've you know, whatever archetype of this guy is, We've

Well, I would probably say yes and no, okay, yes, because it's it's it's it's Donald Trump, and he is like, no, Actually, it's curious to hear you say you know who this person is because I actually don't know who this person is. I have never ever in in my relatively wide experience, come upon someone certainly as as success esful as he is and as absolutely off the rails as as he is. So that's completely confounding.

But sure.

But the the the the other. The other point about whether how bad it is is it's a new kind of situation in which Donald Trump makes a lot of promises and he makes a lot of threats, and it's a, to say the least, a scary world that he outlines. At the same time, he's not very interested in any of this. He's not very interested in accomplishing anything. What he's interested in is is himself and being famous and

Yeah, No, that's that's beautiful.

And I appreciate you making that distinction, because you're right, like, there's I don't know if anybody who's able to just make physics not work, like just the rules of the rules of the universe just don't apply to him. But just in the sense and like you said, like someone who's like I can listen to you talk and just be like, you sound like the most incompetent person I've ever met.

But why does this work? You know?

But I think what it is familiar is just this bully, this just completely detached, the complete detachment from what you're actually saying, but just really just liking power and is like, and I will do whatever it takes to maintain that. And I don't owe any of you guys anything. I don't have any long term friends because I've burnt them, you know, and like and those are things that again, like you know, for me, like, that's a red flag

So what's what's your view on why this this works?

I mean, there's I have I have, that's a good question, I have.

I have two thoughts on it.

One of it, I feel like is just good old fashioned racism, just the fact that like America has just never dealt with its original sin, and and a desire to see.

Things go back to a way where.

Ultimately a stratification of our society that places a particular people group on top and everyone's subordinate to that.

And I think he speaks to that. At the end of the day, there is that.

On the other hand, I do think there's a part that's what I meant by for better or for worse. I do think there's a part that's familiar to who I would say, anyone who's come from a type of struggle to.

Have sort of a like.

Without using like a profanity, but just like an f the world attitude, like you know, I'm gonna get mine, you know, and if it means taking it from you, it don't matter. I'm going to get mine and you

What I'm saying.

So I'm like, I know this guy, you know, and none of your friends trust you, nobody likes you. You really, you really don't have power. Everybody just can't wait for you to leave and take your spot. So I'm like, I know your future. That's what I mean by I'm familiar with you. But to your point to take that and become a president is absolutely mind boggling to me.

Yeah, yeah, do you think you just explained to us the thing that no one seems to understand right now, which is why Kamala is losing black and Hispanic males to Trump.

I think, man, that's man, I like how this is switching the game here.

I think I think that there's a part of that.

I think that, like, the thing that I'm explaining is not specifically a Black and Hispanic thing. I think it has more to do with the It's more socioeconomic than than ethnic. You know what I'm saying, because because I think Black and Hispanic people traditionally are very much more center right than anything because of our faith and our church backgrounds. But we're also very very transactional when it comes to politics. It's like, look, man, who's who's gonna give me what I need?

You know?

And And at the end of the day, there's also within, like to be truthful, within the Black and Hispanic community, a lot of misogyny. There's a lot of patriarchy that still sits into our world and is really hard to reckon with, you know what I mean, and really, and I think shows up in ways that like, you know, we're okay with like you know, Grandma being.

The matriarch of our family.

But at the same time Grandma looking at you and saying you need to be a man at a house, you know.

And and I.

Think that those those two things, like I think kind of a kind of play a role, you know. But I think it's it's much less like she doesn't have the bravado, and it's more like, what are you going to do for us?

You know?

And even if like you said, like Trump will make a promise, and it's like, if you sit back for a second, you could say, well, the same argument he's using for her, which is, well you had a chance, you know, And like, right right, I do have a question for y'all though, around the same thing around like this this vice president debate, which now is it feels like it might as well been during the Great Depression, you know, as long you know, But just this, I

Show your face. So so I'm curious about this.

What do you think the traction of this this these attack lines around Kamala having the power to make change now and not in acting the change that that she says she can make. While at the same time I'm watching this going, well, she's the vice president, Like that's she.

You know what I mean, Like it's how you gonna blame her, you know what I mean.

Uh So, so I just wonder if, like if her record as as the vice matters, you know.

More than you know, I mean, cious curiously, this is this vice presidential debate is one of the rare times when it actually redounded to the benefit of the top of the ticket. So, you know, I mean, again, not good news for for Harris and the Democrats. And I'm not exactly sure why. I mean, Dvance was better than Walls, but you know, not not that much better. This was

Man.

That almost feels like a sort of a byproduct of the lurching that Trump did, you know what I mean to be like, like, I think to your point, there was a time that we thought discipline was good.

You know, No, no, no, I think I think.

You should say everything that pops in your head, you know.

Yeah, no, yeahs, you know, but I think it's part of the whole ways that Trump has upended everything about politics and about political disc discourse, about political performance, about the nature of campaigning itself. I mean, this is now performance, and the performance is can I hold your attention? And can I hold your attention with doing whatever? It really doesn't matter what I do, just as long as I'm holding your attention, which he does.

To your point about being able to like answer a question better, like, I found that very interesting about Jade Vance in the sense of, you know, to use the to use the example of like my dad can beat up your dad. Well, you said it better, But that doesn't actually mean that your dad could beat up my dad. It just means you were better at making the argument. No.

Well, and that's why we've we've we've entered this whole thing that that actually the issue of competence is not an issue. What it is is the issue of communication and connection and emotional appeal.

Yeah, which which really leads me to this, to this this the j six you know Fumble even in his interview with Lulu Garcia uh Navarro on ah on the New York Times, in my opinion, it's a gotcha question. There's no way he can answer this question truly. Of did Trump lose the twenty two the election. You know, it's in the sense that, I mean, come on, guys like you, like you, he can't answer.

This question, you know, no, but it's very it's very clear what's going going on there. It's a kind of triage at this at this point, he can't he can't say that because then he would fall out with Trump. So therefore, therefore that's a non starter. He cannot he cannot tell the truth. Yeah, therefore he he you know, he has no alternative but to but to try to

I I saw that, and I flashed back to being thirteen year old, and you know, I just saw I just saw this bully steal my friend's bike. And then and then somebody walks up and goes, hey, whose bike is that?

And I'm looking at both of them, knowing.

Full well that you just I'm just that le's while I'm like, you can't be honest, like we both know you just stole this bike.

Exactly. There there is no there is no possibility. And I think everybody, I mean, that's the other thing about the about the world of Donald Trump. Everybody understands something that is every It's transparent, every everybody understands this so so so vance isn't penalized for not not dealing with, not confronting this, not telling the truth about this because everybody knows he knows the truth. He just can't say the truth.

He just can't. That is fascinating to me.

That's what I mean by like just gravity doesn't work anymore, you know, because like we all are we just like we all know that this is what's happening, Which leads me to my next question, which to me is is I land here as like one of To me, the biggest question is like, so, why in the world would anyone.

Want to work there?

And I'm curious as to like I think you guys mentioned once that like people will still like line up to work in his cabinet, you know, but like you just have to turn your body into a pretzel to be able to do it, you know. And I'm just I just again again going back to how we were raised. It's like, oh yeah, no, stay away from him, like, you can't this this is a lose lose situation, you know.

Yeah? You know, I mean all of that is is true, and and the exceptions that you outlined are true because everybody does think they are different, because everybody does think that they can they can do what no one before them has managed to do. But then there's also just the just the the risk reward thing. You know, I'm going to go in I'm going to get a job in the in the in the in the White House. Yes, I might be indicted, Yes you know I'm going to be humiliated. Yes, no one is. You know, I'm not

Yeah, I wonder if there's like a piece of some of it's just the adrenaline, you know.

And then that is true, it is it is the White House. It is like, yeah, this is gonna be exciting. I'll go along. I'll go along for the ride.

Yeah.

And to your point, is also true that if you befriend a bully in the belief that you're not gonna get bulleted by the bully, but in fact, you always end up getting bulleted by the bully because that's what the bully does.

That's what he does. Yeah.

Yeah, that's that's a good point too. Yeah, that you're just like man maybe like, yeah, at least I'd rather be the hunter instead of the hunter. You know, I can totally understand that.

And remember, remember the thing is and and and this is all part of the of the of the Trump thing. You know, it is always better to be more famous than you are. Yeah, and yes, and you know, and you go into the White House, and even if you're spit out by it. You're more famous on the other side than you are on going in.

Yeah, very true.

Yeah, yeah, sure that's good.

Short jail term is the price you pay for that?

Yes, you know, you know what.

It's a cost of business, business, the cost of business, right, you know.

Steve, Steve Steve Bannon gets out of jail. I believe. I believe next maybe maybe in two weeks. And I'm sure if you gave him the if you gave him the choice. No, Donald Trump, none of this, none of this. You can go back to twenty and sixteen and not do it and not go to jail. He would say, no, no, I'll go to jail.

Absolutely not.

I mean, all of the humiliations that Trump has met it out to him, it doesn't make any difference. He'll he'll take.

It's merely a line item on your on your P and L.

Right. Yeah.

So, I think my last few questions or two questions really are like more zooming out, kind of like a meta questions, one about your the field that you're in, and then also about just presidencies as a whole. Like I part of me feels like there has to be some sort of hubris or I don't know, lack of a better term, just malady to think that or even to desire to be a president. You know, I'm gonna look at thirty three hundred million people and go, I could be in charge, Like I could, I could do this.

You know. I.

And I wonder if in y'all's experience, if it's I'm not not not looking for no like kind of race science or like you know, gene in there that says.

I can be the guy or I can be the gal.

But have you noticed is they're a personality thing inside a world leader? Like have you noticed that they have a thing that like because I feel like that thing is like something wrong with you like that, like you know, like no part of me would feel equipped for this job, you know, or even want it, you know.

So I just wonder, like, do you see a.

Through line between people who would desire this type of position?

Yeah, I mean I think you can fairly say anybody who wants this job, there's something wrong with them, you know. I mean I think that they have emotional problems. I don't think that that's a that's far off the mark. But the other thing is not only the assumption of this kind of of this kind of power and that kind of hubris. It's people who are willing to do what you have to do to become the president.

Yeah.

I mean it's years of utter unpleasantness, certainly, and I think basically degradation, you know. I mean it's just not in not a human enterprise, and so to do that. I mean, by the time, if if you weren't already warped as a person who wanted that job, you are certainly going to be warped by the time you you you get it. I mean, it's it's ludicrous. You have to run for this for I mean, this is this is more than a two year enterprise. You know, you

Known to man at room temperature.

You know. I mean even even even Donald Trump is full of rage wrath at when you know, when when he has to has to sleep in these hotels that that they put you in. You know, what a what a crummy life?

Yeah, man, you gotta really want it. Yeah.

Wow, it seems as though this uh election it being I mean, if you believe the polls as close as it is, it feels like it's it's either of theirs to lose, you know, not, rather than it's there to win. It feels like, you know, your two, your two missteps away from from losing this. What would you say for either of them would be the thing that would push them off the ledge to to losing this?

This thing for Kamon Law, I mean's Donald It's it's a it's a good question. I'm not sure, you know, I think it is his to lose and hers to win. Okay, and and and I think that he can lose by being Donald Trump. Now, now that's confusing because that's also would be the reason that he will win. I think she has to do in some sense, it's going to be harder for her to win if she stays as Kamala Harris. She has to break she has to break

Yeah, Yeah, there's a certain which I would love to like fill in those holes too. You know, there's a certain sort of double consciousness that like ev D Voice and James Baldwin talks about, like that, eyes feel in some ways a little more empathy towards Kamala in the sense that like, at the end of the day, you're still just You're still a black woman, and you're a black woman in power, and they're just in our country.

That like.

Idea that like I can't show you too much of me, you know, just because of just the history of racism. Now that's not an excuse for her, because like I said, she running for president, Like you know what I'm saying, Like I'm not running for president, you know what I mean, So, like I can stay that guarded. But I think in her ability to ascend the hill in the way that she has without her having to say that, I feel like that that's something that like I can see that.

Yeah.

No, no, And she may have you know, I mean, she has clearly made this very fine calculation and at the end of the day, maybe she's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, cool man, Thank you so much

This is the point.

I'm like, well, I can't because the clip needs context, and then the context needs context, and then that context needs a historical context. So I just wonder, man, like, how you guys dealing with it? Man, how are you guys dealing with just an adapting adjusting? Because it's it's obviously still necessary. Long form is still absolutely necessary. But what do you guys think the future of sort of investigative journalism is?

Well, I don't know. I'm not I mean, I don't even think of myself as a journalist. I'm a writer and I'm just trying to trying to portray what I see and yeah, uh and and James went off to start restaurants and I'm the person who pulled him back into this, so uh, and I think maybe, well, you know. I mean, restaurants and journalism are kind of similar businesses like terrible, like it's terrible.

Awful, just money sucks. Yeah, got it.

I started a coffee company, so yeah you go. You could see the box of the case tray, the six pack sitting right by me, just like with no coffee in him.

Yeah.

Anyway, good, hey, listen, thanks, this was this was great. Thanks for having.

Us, man.

I really appreciate y'all taking y'all time for this man and again buyer Fury podcast. Uh with these two brilliant gentlemen weekly drops. Right yep, yeah, y'all listen to that man and thank you again.

Great, thank you, bye bye.

All right, now don't you hit stop on this pod. You better listen to these credits. I need you to finish this thing so I can get the download numbers.

Okay, so don't stop it yet, but listen.

This was recorded in East Lost Boyle Heights by your boy Propaganda. Tap in with me at prop hip hop dot com. If you're in the coldbrew coffee we got terraform Coldbrew.

You can go there dot com.

And use promo code hood get twenty percent off get yourself some coffee. This was mixed, edited, and mastered by your boy Matt Alsowski Killing the Beast Softly. Check out his website Matdowsowski dot com. I'm a spell it for you because I know M A T T O S O W s ki dot com Matdowsowski dot com. He got more music and stuff like that on it, So gonna check out The heat. Politics is a member of cool Zone Media, executive produced by Sophie Lichterman, part of