Jürgen Pansy, co-founder of Nuki

[SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome to Homesses and Podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: As usual, my name is Rohan and I'm joined with my friend Phil. [SPEAKER_03]: Hey Phil. [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, how's it going? [SPEAKER_03]: Good. [SPEAKER_03]: And today we have a special guest. [SPEAKER_03]: You're getting from a new key. [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, you're getting has gone. [SPEAKER_03]: Hi. [SPEAKER_03]: This episode is usual is sponsored by Homesses and Cloud by Napa Casa.

[SPEAKER_03]: For a small monthly fee, you'll unlock powerful features like secure effortless access to your system from anywhere. [SPEAKER_03]: You choice a voice assistance, off-site backups, and more. [SPEAKER_03]: I'll configure it through the UI with no EML needed. [SPEAKER_03]: It also supports the development of Home Assistant, ESP Home, and other Open Home Foundation projects. [SPEAKER_03]: Click on the link in the description to find out more.

[SPEAKER_03]: We'd also like to give a shout out to our Patreon members, including our Executive Producer, Benny, and Rob. [SPEAKER_03]: You can also help support the show and get early access, steps, so it's all in an ad-free feed. [SPEAKER_03]: To support the show, check out homeassistant.fm and click Patreon in the menu. [SPEAKER_03]: All right, you're good.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for joining us. [SPEAKER_03]: We're just for our viewers. [SPEAKER_03]: Where are you joining us from today? [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sitting in Austria in Gratz, so in the middle of Europe. [SPEAKER_03]: That's awesome. [SPEAKER_03]: And you're from Nuki. [SPEAKER_03]: What tells what a little bit about what you do there and tell us about kind of the vision behind Nuki and how you got here today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how I go to here is a funny thing because I go to here because I hate keys. [SPEAKER_00]: Who doesn't, I mean, loves caves in, I actually know like in this year, like who loves caves at the moment. [SPEAKER_00]: I think they are slowly on their way out. [SPEAKER_00]: Like you've got cars that can now link to your phone. [SPEAKER_00]: You've got, yeah, like door locks that you know very familiar with. [SPEAKER_00]: The caves on the way out, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: All their offices are smart fobs, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but still if you are out on the street, ninety-five percent of people carry around the piece of metal in their pocket, which wraps against their smartphone that has a difference with intelligence and everything either. [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of unbelievable, and that's also how we started into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So about ten years ago, we were sitting together and actually thinking about this problem, why do we carry all those pieces of metal around?

[SPEAKER_01]: Why in large corporations, you already have any C cards or other stuff, but why for our private tours, we carry around the keys. [SPEAKER_01]: That was actually our motivation to start. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we dig into it and define the few success criteria for us that we think a product needs to have in order to get rid of it. [SPEAKER_01]: Then, as we typically are, we build the prototype.

[SPEAKER_01]: I put the prototype on my door and then said, okay, family, what's what are you doing now with this? [SPEAKER_01]: And Duelib was pretty obvious that almost immediately the key was gone and no one ever asked for a key. [SPEAKER_01]: Funny thing is, you know, our products are retrofits. [SPEAKER_01]: So basically, the outside of the door remains unchanged.

[SPEAKER_01]: You put it on the inside, onto the door, you can keep the key, which was an important feature, because my wife was the last one to jump ship. [SPEAKER_01]: But you can continue to use the key, but you can also use the phone or our app or any integration you have. [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, we'll have pretty quick skits. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, well, Kyle, cool. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need this anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: No case. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, I myself as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also, my wife converted over time because there is a simple trick. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just key for the Nuki app to turn on auto-unlock. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, whenever she comes home, the door is already open before she is at the door. [SPEAKER_01]: And that actually does the trick because it's only the key.

[SPEAKER_01]: for that, and then there is also a funny thing, which I would have never thought of, but when you leave your house, you also have to put in the key, you know, to lock it. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a very annoying thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Once you know that you can get rid of it, so we also have features in there that lock you door, either automatically or when you leave, or just the handy thing, or all our products have a button, and if you double press the button, the door just locks when you close it. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you just walk out, you know, double press and then close the door and it locks.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those are such small things that really make a big difference because, you know, everyone turning around, taking out the key, putting it in, locking, just for walking away, it's somehow, it's a useless process. [SPEAKER_01]: So you immediately feel makes your life easier.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we immediately felt with our prototypes and then we went on to Kickstarter and tried to see if other people would be willing to pay for our product as well. [SPEAKER_01]: And it became eventually in two thousand sixteen or fifteen. [SPEAKER_01]: The most successful kicks that the campaign in the German speaking area. [SPEAKER_01]: And then once we set a kickstarter, I'll kick some of the people like it. [SPEAKER_01]: There seems to be a market out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go for it. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's produce it. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's bring it to market. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's how our jury basically started. [SPEAKER_03]: That's very cool. [SPEAKER_03]: So, and now, I mean, from a new key lock perspective, that was obviously your Austria.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, there's different standards for locks and all those things. [SPEAKER_03]: So, that means you were focused on European style locks, is that correct? [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that was one specific thing, of course, that in Europe, you have to turn the key, seven hundred twenty degrees. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like on the US that pulled where you just have a one hundred twenty degrees rotation is really seven hundred twenty. [SPEAKER_01]: Which of course means it turns much longer.

[SPEAKER_01]: It needs more force because we have lots of market point logs. [SPEAKER_01]: We also have lectures that you need to redirect with the key. [SPEAKER_01]: Those are things you don't have in other markets and that makes it a little bit specific. [SPEAKER_01]: And the interesting thing is that even though you have to turn it's seven hundred twenty degrees, the patients you have in order to wait for the key to turn is the same than before that bolt.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you want to have it at the same speed because it's the same human beings. [SPEAKER_01]: So when you're waiting in front of your door, you just expect that it goes at the same speed, then it would go with that bolt. [SPEAKER_01]: And that is something that we already achieved with our old products because our products in the beginning, they took about four, five seconds for the seven hundred twenty degrees.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you would take a classic that bolt lock, it would take around ten seconds, which is just too long. [SPEAKER_01]: And now we have a new product generation and a new product generation that does a way with that that is much much faster.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does it in a second? [SPEAKER_01]: Even on European style doors. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's super fast. [SPEAKER_03]: How is that? [SPEAKER_03]: Is it just more force or faster or both, sir? [SPEAKER_03]: How do you achieve that? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first off, it's faster and it has the same forest and the old one head. [SPEAKER_01]: So essentially, of course, the gearing is a different one on the motor is stronger.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the cool thing with a new product is, is, and I've never seen something like that in the market, the lock itself is the motor. [SPEAKER_01]: So it basically is a brushless motor that is built into the lock. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like you purchase typically when you print such a product, your purchase a motor somewhere and block the motor in it and then you have some games. [SPEAKER_01]: Our product is the motor itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know if you know how a brushless motor works, so basically you have magnets and you have a rotating magnetic field. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what they think magnetic field makes the magnet follow it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's how all the motors in cars work in electric cars. [SPEAKER_01]: And we basically built the same into the lock and the lock itself, you know, the bars that turn in the lock, they are the motor. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why everything is one combined thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so the battery is, you could say the battery is part of the motor because it's in the middle of the motor. [SPEAKER_01]: The lock itself, I have it here, it's such a, you know, this round shaped thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And basically, also the mechanics go around like this here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the battery is right in it, and the PCB and everything is basically, it's just one motor, which is super, super cool, the same thing, and of course it doesn't have any wear because the brushless motors don't wear. [SPEAKER_01]: There are no brushless that can wear. [SPEAKER_00]: Then in your testing, like I'm guessing you've done a whole bunch of testing, have you been able to then theorize how many turns this lock could do?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, have you ever been able to reach a limit? [SPEAKER_01]: You know, meaning in terms of until it breaks, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like if you've been like, you know how, like, for example, an LED company can say, oh, yeah, LEDs will last twenty five years, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Even a technology hasn't been out for twenty five years. [SPEAKER_00]: Have you been able to theorize, okay, we suspect this look.

[SPEAKER_00]: The daily use would be able to last X-Matter views or X-Matter locks on locks. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, in terms of locks and analogs, we don't have a limit because it's basically the motor is the only thing that has a wear and the motor doesn't break because brushes don't break. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: The end, of course, we have, and that's also specific, because of the small size of the new product, it does have a built-in battery.

[SPEAKER_01]: and you can recharge it with a magnetic charging cable. [SPEAKER_01]: So it has kind of, I'm not allowed to name it next, make safe because that's something that is protected by works the same way. [SPEAKER_01]: So you just plug a charging cable in there and you can charge it on your door in two hours. [SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, of course there's a printing battery. [SPEAKER_01]: And the battery has somewhere.

[SPEAKER_01]: So typically such lithium batteries they last for about ten years. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's probably also where you would expect that you need to exchange the battery, which is something we can do. [SPEAKER_01]: Then again, if you think, ten years into the future. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll see how logs in ten years look like. [SPEAKER_01]: Because they might be a new standard out there, new electronics, new fancy features.

[SPEAKER_01]: So mature if in ten years you still want to have this product or you jump onto an ex-generation that's already up there. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a good point, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, smart times in general, right? [SPEAKER_00]: There's technology moving evolving. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it matters standard.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is still in a very early days, you know, who's just to know what in ten years time, if that standard is going to be there, or what it will look like, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And you may need something hard way. [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, it's one of the reasons why we also think that retro feed is a good solution. [SPEAKER_01]: Because retro feed lock, you can change. [SPEAKER_01]: If it's built directly into your door, you would have to change your full door. [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: which makes, yeah, that doing it this way makes a lot more sense. [SPEAKER_03]: And now just this new model with the shape and everything that you're saying. [SPEAKER_03]: So it looks like that will fit on American doors or North American doors rather. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it does. [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, this is even with the orbit for that bulk. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can say it does just the seven hundred twenty degrees and this is it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, it does that quite fast. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little bit below one second. [SPEAKER_01]: But the funny thing is the speed we use over here is the slowest speed setting that we offer in Europe. [SPEAKER_01]: In our Europe, we have speed settings. [SPEAKER_01]: So we call them the standard mode. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's standard mode that locks in about one and a half seconds. [SPEAKER_01]: You can run it in Chantel mode.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, during night times, it's slower. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit less loud. [SPEAKER_01]: And we also have insane speed mode. [SPEAKER_01]: And insane mode, it does the whole thing in one second in Europe. [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, because of the seven hundred twenty degrees and one hundred twenty only on that post on that post is much slower. [SPEAKER_01]: But still is the same time because this is the time that feels good.

[SPEAKER_01]: So something between zero point five and one second is what feels good. [SPEAKER_01]: If it's faster, it feels a little bit rushed. [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: How did you like when you say it feels rushed? [SPEAKER_03]: Like what do you mean? [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's like it's too fast. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if it were doing it in insane mode in the US, it locks in zero point two seconds. [SPEAKER_01]: So you're basically clicking on the button and this is it.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: That feels, it just doesn't feel okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So we made it a little bit slower. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, that's the funny thing. [SPEAKER_01]: It's also part of philosophy, it's software. [SPEAKER_01]: Software controls it, which means we can work with software updates to change that in time. [SPEAKER_01]: So if now the US customers say they want to have it faster, okay, we can make it faster with just software update.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or we can enter the speed modes like we have over in Europe. [SPEAKER_01]: Those are possibilities that we want to have, and that we actively use, because from our philosophy point of view, we see ourselves more as a software company. [SPEAKER_01]: We don't see as a hardware company. [SPEAKER_01]: The hardware is in Abla, but we are not proud because we have invented a motor that turns a key.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not, we are proud that we have a cool hardware, and that it looks cool. [SPEAKER_01]: But in reality, it's in Abla for [SPEAKER_01]: for a use case. [SPEAKER_01]: And we want to keep you the best use case. [SPEAKER_01]: And that also includes software, the software runs on the device, but also the front end to use. [SPEAKER_01]: The API is an interface with all of that. [SPEAKER_01]: And because of being a software company, we of course are seeing ourselves like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: We like to work on this software side. [SPEAKER_01]: So we want to purchase that. [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that the features that everything remains the same forever. [SPEAKER_01]: We do quarterly almost quarterly firmware updates. [SPEAKER_01]: That could be, of course, improvements and bug fixes, but could also be new features. [SPEAKER_00]: So what would you be then looking at expanding your software or tech side then to potentially other logs?

[SPEAKER_01]: That is actually a possibility that we use our tech stack and put it on top of our hardware. [SPEAKER_00]: That's not it. [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess it also goes with the whole open source movement, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yes, I have this lock, but just because it's from this brand doesn't necessarily mean I want to use their software, maybe they've got a buggy app or something or they've gone out of business, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll be cool if someone could make, you know, a firmware update available, and then I put a new key on it, and then [SPEAKER_00]: I would then have access to whatever hardware supported features, Niki has. [SPEAKER_00]: Have that going to Niki ecosystem. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's not so easy because, of course, our ecosystem is also tailored to the features of our hardware. [SPEAKER_01]: But in theory, of course, we're open to such a module currently.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have it. [SPEAKER_01]: What we have is we have some products that just trigger simple functions. [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, if you have a gate at home, [SPEAKER_01]: You can mount something from us. [SPEAKER_01]: It's called the opener to it, which just enables the relay. [SPEAKER_01]: And through the relay, of course, it brings it basically into our ecosystem. [SPEAKER_01]: You can use our APIs and all of our integrations.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you have a different hardware, but the interface is quite, I almost as stupid one, it's just shortening a contact. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that would allow you to do like you've got a garage door. [SPEAKER_00]: That has like a, that you can share what a circuit on to trigger the garage door. [SPEAKER_00]: You could then have that work into the making app. [SPEAKER_03]: So talking about the software stack.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you guys have just achieved the, you know, the coveted works with home assistant badge. [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, what? [SPEAKER_03]: What was the reason that you guys went down that road? [SPEAKER_03]: But also what was the reason you guys got green lit and validated and all of that stuff, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's so does it have to do with your... I'm assuming it's more around the software stack on your side, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And what was that whole process like? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the reasoning for doing it is because we believe that consumers, well, we know they know brands and they shouldn't have to very too much about standards. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if it's relevant for a consumer that you know is what thread is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe not knowing what matter is, but they should know actually what home assistant is because that's what they have at home and they want to know what works your home assistant. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why we like the brains more than the technical API spec names behind. [SPEAKER_01]: It's also like two, I have five, five, six, four, five, three.

[SPEAKER_01]: Many people are confused by this. [SPEAKER_01]: And then really I often get asked which Wi-Fi standard does your local. [SPEAKER_01]: But rather it's irrelevant. [SPEAKER_01]: As long as it works, you don't need to care about the number behind it's Wi-Fi works. [SPEAKER_01]: And the same is here, you know, it just works with Home Assistant. [SPEAKER_01]: That's important for us. [SPEAKER_01]: And what's also important that we have a certain quality in our products.

[SPEAKER_01]: And typically for this works with programs, you define certain quality criterias that you want to say that you think makes sense for your product. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we always proud when our products also match that because typically we should have the same expectation. [SPEAKER_01]: We all want to make the consumer happy and we want to offer something that is made for the consumer. [SPEAKER_01]: So for us going through the program was quite easy.

[SPEAKER_01]: The only, the only remark that's one we often get is why do you need our app to install it? [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason for this is that our app actually guides you through the installation process also. [SPEAKER_01]: So when we created the product one of the winning success process that we defined is that you can install it in five minutes without the need for any tools and the written installation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, when we started out, then we are already products on the market that somehow wear a motor to turn the key. [SPEAKER_01]: And we didn't invent the motor to turn the key. [SPEAKER_01]: But when you unpack them, there was a written manual with thirty pages. [SPEAKER_01]: And it started out with you need a hammer, a saw, and a screwdriver. [SPEAKER_01]: And we said, OK, now it's my home door. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a product category. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't maybe even trust yet. [SPEAKER_01]: No soul on my home door. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not how I started out with smart home. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not smart at all. [SPEAKER_01]: and also now written manual with thirty pages. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, it's a no-go. [SPEAKER_01]: For us, it was here. [SPEAKER_01]: Skinny QR code and go through an app guided process that makes all of this simple to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, if we would immediately connect our project to a third-party platform and we are not in control of this manual installation and set up process, we would leave that. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why you need to download our app. [SPEAKER_01]: The cool thing is that we do not rely on you to set up any account.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're just download the app, connect it to your log, install it, and once you are through it, you activate Meter in your case, then connect it via Meter to say Home Assistant, and then you're good to go with the Home Assistant type as well. [SPEAKER_01]: So we think it's a hurdle, it's worthwhile right now for people to let them through. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe in the future, we can get rid of it. [SPEAKER_01]: But for now, it's for sure the best way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'd like to more work on features that are in Home Assistant and help you to connect your log or control it while you use it, rather than just the one time setup. [SPEAKER_01]: Because the one that's setup is done by an administrator just once. [SPEAKER_01]: Afterwards, it's used by many people. [SPEAKER_01]: for ten years or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as long as you work on improving creatures, improving meta, bringing things in there, I think it makes more sense to work on the usage side of things, rather than just on the side of the face. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, you guys are matter over thread certified, right? [SPEAKER_03]: So that's pretty exciting. [SPEAKER_03]: What was that, like, basically get matter into the product, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And what are your thoughts on matter?

[SPEAKER_03]: Clearly, you like it, because you guys use it, but what's your, why matter, essentially, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, before, before matter are all the locks from two thousand eighteen onwards head home key and the head home key by amplitude and now we have made the wire thread and those are ready to analogies I always like to use because basically matter is home key for everyone so it's it's a pretty open standard that

[SPEAKER_01]: changes and is a vulnerable and you can also engage yourself in there which we did so some features of the lock cluster in matter are also coming from us and we brought them into the standard. [SPEAKER_01]: And on the other hand, it's a common freeing that is used by many companies and sets a certain layer. [SPEAKER_01]: And you have the strongest companies behind. [SPEAKER_01]: So you have Apple, Google, Samsung, all those big ones behind you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that helps a lot because before to be honest, [SPEAKER_01]: having home key or sorry, home key in there was quite an effort doing the same with a different style for Google and everyone that would have just blown up the firmware to integrate and it just doesn't fit on the chip. [SPEAKER_01]: Now we have one stack that is quite big and complicated because matter is quite a beast for many of the small chips. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's one common thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a cool thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And then the evolution from Bluetooth over to Fred is also one we're very happy with because Fred is IP based. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a mesh network. [SPEAKER_01]: You can easily extend it. [SPEAKER_01]: You can improve it. [SPEAKER_01]: Bluetooth is non-muffeted. [SPEAKER_01]: It's direct. [SPEAKER_01]: It's within ten centimeters of reach. [SPEAKER_01]: It has its back sides. [SPEAKER_01]: So Fred is definitely much more modern.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's also made for product like ours, which up at retrieval. [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool thing. [SPEAKER_01]: So now one of the questions was how was it to implement meta and Fred? [SPEAKER_01]: And when we started out, we started out relatively early, so there were no other meta and Fred projects on the market. [SPEAKER_01]: And initially, it was really, really, really a mess to get that into your product. [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's becoming, it's becoming much better because many of the cheap manufacturers already have their SDKs and also matter has matured. [SPEAKER_01]: So many of the bugs that were in the initial matter implementations aren't there anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, in the past, there were lots of problems with bearing and conditions that up all of that is gone. [SPEAKER_01]: And also Fred becomes more and more stable and better.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the biggest challenges for us when we implemented it is that from our philosophy, we basically want to give consumers the option. [SPEAKER_01]: So you want to give them the option which app or frontend or integration they want to use. [SPEAKER_01]: And we never wanted to build a product that just works with one. [SPEAKER_01]: So we have to say at the setup time, I use my product with Mater and this is it. [SPEAKER_01]: With our product, you can use every API in parallel.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the log on my home door, our nooky log. [SPEAKER_01]: For example, I can use the nooky app. [SPEAKER_01]: I can use the nooky keypad, which works via Bluetooth. [SPEAKER_01]: I have a door sensor from nooky, which also works via Bluetooth. [SPEAKER_01]: It is connected via a meta over thread to my Apple home. [SPEAKER_01]: I have an MQD connection running the home assistant and all of that in parallel.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the coolest thing, the log itself, it has Wi-Fi and thread building. [SPEAKER_01]: But if you note this, that through the Apple home, on what mini that I have, it gets also internet access, so it turned off Wi-Fi on the safe battery. [SPEAKER_01]: So now, last time I charged it, I think it was in November and now it's already shown.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost nine months on the single battery charge on the European tour with market point lock and it has, you know, it's integrated into three or four systems and everything runs in parallel. [SPEAKER_01]: So I have pre-choice which interface I've only used. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the closer. [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why that's the software segment that makes the magic, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not we're not saying, ah, this is a metal lock and that's why you connected to almost this is it, this is the only thing. [SPEAKER_01]: You can use all of the integrations in parallel and sorry about the way you want to have it. [SPEAKER_01]: You can have it integrated in home assistant and in all your routines. [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, you can use the auto unlock function of the Nokia. [SPEAKER_01]: There is no restriction. [SPEAKER_01]: You can use our keypad.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can use our fingerprint reader in the keypad and you can trigger automation space on which key was put on the keypad in home assistant. [SPEAKER_01]: So you can play a welcome melody for your girlfriend when she comes home while you can have a different scene based on your own finger of any places. [SPEAKER_00]: That's cool. [SPEAKER_01]: That's very neat. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was like, I remember like the old, any Bluetooth device, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: This is my, you know, consumer, the Bluetooth thing that came out is that you could only pair or you could only have one active Bluetooth connection at a time, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Now with, you know, headphones and all that's a bit different as new standards. [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, back in the day, it was you could only pair one Bluetooth device with one controller, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So as soon as you connected something to Bluetooth, that was it.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was you could control it any other way, it was that was it with Bluetooth. [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess that even my own lock right, like I've got to choose which protocol I want to use to want to use. [SPEAKER_00]: That's it. [SPEAKER_00]: There is no use both at the same time. [SPEAKER_00]: That's it. [SPEAKER_00]: That is fantastic. [SPEAKER_00]: We're able to use all of them at the same time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even the log it can run everything you can run Bluetooth, spread and wifi at the same time. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you have retro to does not provide the internet uplink, it will keep on wifi and you can run meta over threat with I don't know Apple home and you can run an empty connection into home assistant all in parallel. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's cool. [SPEAKER_01]: That's really cool. [SPEAKER_01]: That's how we think it should be.

[SPEAKER_01]: The customer should have the choice. [SPEAKER_01]: We want to give it a choice. [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you want to use, we give you the choice. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, for our own effort, we try to make it as good as possible, because there's one thing we have on the control. [SPEAKER_01]: But we also want to give you the chance that you, with Home Assistant can develop whatever, and that we have an integration there. [SPEAKER_01]: So we made an MQD API into the lock.

[SPEAKER_01]: Next to Meter and Fred, because we think that we know that we can provide more features there. [SPEAKER_01]: That Meter doesn't have yet. [SPEAKER_01]: And Home Assistant is the only platform that you can run everything. [SPEAKER_01]: So you can set it up with Meter via Fred with Home Assistant, but you can also on top put our AngularT connection into Home Assistant and do a little bit more of the fancy things that are not supported by Meter at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: How have you gone about, because obviously being a retrofit lock, there are so many different lock styles. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm sure there's just a few in your but alone. [SPEAKER_00]: You've now going into the US where you're targeting, you know, let's go over to the US now. [SPEAKER_00]: How many doors? [SPEAKER_00]: How many different types of locks do you scouring research? [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we know that this design will cover off in an X map percentage of doors.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, have you had to have a footnote? [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we want to be able to support a lot to kind of do. [SPEAKER_00]: Thirty degree turns make it customizable. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll use and need to say this is where the lock is. [SPEAKER_00]: It's where unlock is like, how is that design process? [SPEAKER_00]: How do you go through that? [SPEAKER_01]: I'll buy a look on the market and you'll see what you can cover, also what others are covering.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we found the area of this single deadbolt locks, which are quite prominent over there. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we are focusing on on those it works. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, if you also have a European style mortized lock, you would probably be able to use one of our European versions over there. [SPEAKER_01]: But the main version for the US is actually the one that fits on the single, excited deadbolt. [SPEAKER_01]: And that covers quite a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for us, it's a starting point. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we want to see if people in the US like our posts, like they do over here in Europe. [SPEAKER_01]: And once you find out that you get some grip over there and how it works, we can still expand and look at your categories. [SPEAKER_00]: Another thing that's happened, I guess it's just, you know, last few months ago, you've just launched in the US now. [SPEAKER_00]: Have you found with the tariffs?

[SPEAKER_00]: You've probably made in Europe, you've got the quality, you know, or everywhere. [SPEAKER_00]: It's made in Europe. [SPEAKER_00]: Have you found any issues now trying to launch in the US being a European brand going into the US? [SPEAKER_01]: It's mostly, for the time being, it's mostly the insecurity because we haven't paid any tariffs yet. [SPEAKER_01]: So everything we shipped there was without there. [SPEAKER_01]: But no one knows what's going to happen in a month.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the problem. [SPEAKER_01]: But then, of course, once there are tariffs, you have

[SPEAKER_01]: you have a problem to deal with in a way and you need to think whether you put this on top of your pricing or you can swallow it alone but that depends on the tariff that you have to pay when it's time and you don't know that yeah it's completely you know it might get pushed back or to where something might be different nobody knows and that's actually the biggest problem you don't want to build a business on an insecurity yeah

[SPEAKER_03]: Are you still, for the US, do you still ship from Europe? [SPEAKER_01]: We ship from Europe, Austria. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: We ship from whipping everything in Europe. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we ship from Austria. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we have to pay the dairy that is valid at the time of shipment. [SPEAKER_01]: And what it will be, we don't know, can change any time. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we push back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we hope that there is no specific dairy on government that we can just sell at the rates we want to. [SPEAKER_01]: We're playing to settle over there. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because even recently at the time of recording, like, you know, I think Apple, for iPhone to have all of a sudden, you know, stock from being interested, you know, it's changing all the time. [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess that does, yeah, it's so uncertain at the moment.

[SPEAKER_00]: but good that you know it's made in Europe because generally everything like I know I had a would have been a random kickstarter smart luck too when I was renting that took ages to come out and it was you know it's made in China cloud-based I think there's a Wi-Fi module but you know didn't integrate well so yeah it's called it it's not there's more options right choose wrong yes so we have we built our hardware here in Europe

[SPEAKER_01]: We have our servers here in Europe and everything is GDPR compliant and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: Plus, we also have, we have the strong belief that in data that you do not have to hand over to anyone, it can also not get lost. [SPEAKER_01]: So we try to collect as little data as needed from you. [SPEAKER_01]: We try to have as little in a cloud as needed and it should also be in your hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you can use our logs weblet of [SPEAKER_01]: In this case, nothing is in the gap. [SPEAKER_01]: Because when you set up the log a pair of keys, it's locally created. [SPEAKER_01]: It's stored in your app, it's stored in the log and it's used to encrypt the communication. [SPEAKER_01]: Then it's end-to-end encrypted. [SPEAKER_01]: We also offer remote access. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you connect the log to Wi-Fi, it uses remote access through our servers.

[SPEAKER_01]: But everything is end-to-end encrypted with the keys that have been created before. [SPEAKER_01]: So we cannot read anything on Cloudside, which means, again, it's [SPEAKER_01]: it's low creep basically. [SPEAKER_01]: It uses the gout as a bridge because you have firewalls and not and whatever stuff behind. [SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't encrypt. [SPEAKER_01]: So we have no information on server side what's going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are just passing along which is providing infrastructure. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, we also offer cloud APIs or web service or integrations into Airbnb and stuff like that. [SPEAKER_01]: For these, of course, we need more on our cloud site. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't know on those things, then something is in our cloud. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's under your control. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to. [SPEAKER_01]: You can.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same way if you just lose it locally in the Nuke app and integrate it into home assistant, it doesn't need an internet connection for that to look. [SPEAKER_01]: It would like to have one because it would like to download forever updates and stuff like that. [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, you don't need. [SPEAKER_01]: You can also isolate it if you want to. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you don't ever want to do the updates or anything, you don't, you don't ever have to.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's no fear of [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you guys pushing down and update to brick a lock or something like that, right? [SPEAKER_03]: That's the other side of it too, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Because again, we see we always use Logitech as as an example, right where they push down firmware to say, okay, well, no more and then brick, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Or on the counter side, not offer firmware. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: We, we, which also here, we give the option.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have automatic firmware update. [SPEAKER_01]: If the local is an internet connection, you can turn it off, then it's under your control. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: I really like the the whole privacy aspect that you guys have taken beyond it because there's no reason You need to know what time I'm opening my locker on like locking or unlocking or the fact that I forget to lock my door at Every day or whatever right whatever those habits might be there's no There's no reason to know and or sell or whatever Yeah, it's also from a security point of view, you know if there are no keys on our servers they cannot get so so you know

[SPEAKER_01]: that makes the system, of course, the certain degree is secure, plus it's also in terms of privacy. [SPEAKER_01]: If we don't have your account, we don't need your email and your name. [SPEAKER_01]: Why? [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have that. [SPEAKER_01]: You can, of course, sign up for Nuke Club, and you can receive some emails and promos whatever, but you don't have to. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want, you can just use it locally.

[SPEAKER_01]: The log wants to have a name, because you want to see in the app how it is named. [SPEAKER_01]: The log also wants to have a username for a user that can write down the individual who you are, but those things stay locally. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't move into the cloud. [SPEAKER_01]: They are not somewhere in our servers. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the philosophy behind. [SPEAKER_01]: You can, but you don't have to. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be back with your gun in a sec.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're looking to upgrade your smart home, you can't go past Zeus. [SPEAKER_00]: As that wave long range to your home assistant set up with a Zeus ZST, thirty-nine USB radio. [SPEAKER_00]: Their advanced technology operates in dual network mode, combining a reliable mesh system with ultra-fast direct device to hub connectivity.

[SPEAKER_00]: and with said way of long-range support, you can get coverage up to thirteen hundred feet or four hundred meters, both indoors and outdoors. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's extremely secure with unique DSK QR code scanning, which you can now do directly within home assistant. [SPEAKER_00]: is that webJS integration in home assistant enables seamless compatibility with a range of brands or working together through your secure, private, and standardised off-cloud protocol.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's just the start. [SPEAKER_00]: Zeus offers a range of affordable and innovative devices, including water leak sensors, water valve controllers, smart plugs, scene controllers, and even color paddles. [SPEAKER_00]: The color paddles for their scene controllers, dimmers, and switches allow the smart devices to blend as cleanlessly into your home. [SPEAKER_00]: For the best products on all Zeus products, head over to thesmartesthouse.com.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's thesmartesthouse.com. [SPEAKER_00]: Switching gears a little bit now was a lock your first foray into a smart home, like was the lock in an eye. [SPEAKER_00]: The first device you've put on and got, okay, now I can do some other things in the home or had you already been in, you know, to home automation and smart home for all that. [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, before we as a company started with logs and I started in the beginning with a head case.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to get around the key. [SPEAKER_01]: Before that, we, well, I personally had my private experiences with smart home, of course. [SPEAKER_01]: but from a professional point of view, no, because we've never made hardware before.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've been a software company before. [SPEAKER_01]: I personally have been in charge of one of the largest websites or even the largest website in Austria around two thousand. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a website that was popular for sending text messages from the internet to mobile phones. [SPEAKER_01]: And it also became eventually the biggest social network in Austria at the time. [SPEAKER_01]: So that was the time of my space.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we had also very nice space like [SPEAKER_01]: network, but where that's what we are coming from. [SPEAKER_01]: We're coming from direct to consumer from running large websites and stuff like that. [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't have experience with hardware at the time, and that was a very interesting journey to learn hardware and how it works. [SPEAKER_01]: But we knew for this use case, we need hardware as an enabling. [SPEAKER_03]: So what did that look like?

[SPEAKER_03]: What was that process for you? [SPEAKER_03]: you and the team to kind of re-tool yourselves to become hardware people on top of software people. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you are clever, you try to partner with someone who already knows how hard it works and that's what we did. [SPEAKER_01]: So we searched for a shareholder in the company that could also bring in some of this knowledge.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when we decide the first smart lock we try to use external companies, [SPEAKER_01]: And then we internalized more and more of that know how. [SPEAKER_01]: But we are still working with external companies for some aspects. [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, the design of our products.

[SPEAKER_01]: It comes from a company that also the Bill Gates Foundation works with. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a Vienna-based design studio and we work with them since the beginning because we also believe that what you put on your door also needs to look cool because it's your door. [SPEAKER_01]: You walk by it and pass it every day and it also needs to fit and you need to like it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why we put a lot of emphasis on the design side of the things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's how we do it. [SPEAKER_01]: We try to work with partners, what we don't have to know how, with good ones. [SPEAKER_01]: And internalized the core knowledge that we need on stage database. [SPEAKER_03]: That's going, and I like that you guys went to a design firm. [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen things designed by proper engineers, and not every time, but let's say nine out of ten times, they end up really ugly, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because engineers designed for engineering purposes, and they're like, yeah, this works. [SPEAKER_03]: You're cares how good it looks, right? [SPEAKER_03]: But no, that truly does look really nice. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm glad you guys had the forethought to say, hey, let's actually work with

[SPEAKER_03]: someone who's primary focus is designed now when when that happens and this this this this whole thing is completely this this part's completely foreign to me right when you work with a design firm and and do all that today like give you something completely unrealistic where you're like okay well I can't fit my hardware into there and and and you iterate on that or is it kind of more I assume is collaborative but at the same time is it more like

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, hey, I have all of this stuff, and here you go, you guys figure out design. [SPEAKER_03]: How does that look? [SPEAKER_03]: What does that feel like? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a funny combination, because typically we know what we know the use case. [SPEAKER_01]: We know how the consumer wants to interact with our device. [SPEAKER_01]: So say, we design, I don't know, a lock. [SPEAKER_01]: We know that there needs to be a button.

[SPEAKER_01]: So some things are fixed, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And with these two things that are fixed, we typically start very early into the design process. [SPEAKER_01]: So before we do any drawings of our products, we already started with the same process. [SPEAKER_01]: So it comes in very, really. [SPEAKER_01]: And then they typically come with quite radical ideas, which are not doable. [SPEAKER_01]: We always start with something that is not possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And most of the time it's about size. [SPEAKER_01]: We try to be minimally small, probably include things that are too expensive. [SPEAKER_01]: and then you need to work for it. [SPEAKER_01]: So is this doable or is it not? [SPEAKER_01]: How much space do we need in order to feed all the antennas and the PSP in there? [SPEAKER_01]: How many batteries is something we typically already have to find upfront? [SPEAKER_01]: Because that defines a lot of the size constraints.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in types of shape and form, we are relatively open. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you run through this process and it's really, it's really so interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: By the time you get to learn a little bit of your tricks, and it makes such a big difference if you have, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's take the keep it here. [SPEAKER_01]: When you take this, there is a small gap here. [SPEAKER_01]: And then what does this small thing do?

[SPEAKER_01]: There are sometimes things where such a small thing makes the whole product look completely different. [SPEAKER_01]: Or if you look at our at the lock here, [SPEAKER_01]: Now on from there is a small radius on it. [SPEAKER_01]: Here you can see. [SPEAKER_01]: This radius makes the whole product appear completely different. [SPEAKER_01]: It looks much smaller than it would look if we were at the other way round.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's so funny because there are tricks you can do that have an influence. [SPEAKER_01]: Or for example, there is this black ring right here.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is stainless steel here, then the knob you can turn and then there is black ring. [SPEAKER_01]: If you would make this also stainless steel, it would look much different. [SPEAKER_01]: And those are small things that we talk all the time, and not to be neat, a small thing here, or something to air, or a little bit of a radius there. [SPEAKER_01]: And that makes a lot of difference. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's so funny when you work through the process.

[SPEAKER_01]: That small things make a huge difference in our eyes. [SPEAKER_01]: So at one millimeter here, and it looks like boom, boom, this is much too big. [SPEAKER_01]: Remove one millimeter, and it's cool. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, the devil is in detail. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like optical illusion. [SPEAKER_00]: And you're trying to trick people into... Yes, exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the funny thing is that most of these illusions work the same for everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you show it to people, everyone has the same feeling. [SPEAKER_01]: That this object now, the proportions of this object do not fit. [SPEAKER_01]: Then you change one millimeter here and suddenly for everyone it fits. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: How is the work? [SPEAKER_01]: It's just one millimeter difference. [SPEAKER_01]: How?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's how it works. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the interesting thing, proving the design process. [SPEAKER_01]: That's really cool. [SPEAKER_00]: That's fascinating. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: To think that, you know, there's just these two edges or little things you can cut out and try and just subtly. [SPEAKER_00]: And it makes you as just that that big difference.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you also know, you know, that's the interesting thing because where you have to design it, you know, that if you would need to add one millimeter here. [SPEAKER_01]: because you don't fit your PCP over the screen, whatever into it, then actually the shape breaks. [SPEAKER_01]: So you know what are the important elements that you need to focus on to get right in order for it to look cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's almost been the fascinating thing out of this design process for me because you never know where those boundaries are. [SPEAKER_01]: For every object or every product you design, they are different. [SPEAKER_01]: But everyone feels the same. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the cool thing. [SPEAKER_01]: That's also when you produce something that looks cool and when people see this object, everyone says, it looks modern, cool, reduced. [SPEAKER_01]: That's funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, because most people have the same sentiment. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, even before we started recording when you quickly showed us the the the new key lock. [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, Oh, that actually looks pretty pretty small because what an I've rented about just a few tests, but my my door has like the windows too close to the lock, right? [SPEAKER_03]: So that means that I can only fit very certain frames sizes within the lock.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the first thing I thought was like, Oh, that might actually fit. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my door, which is kind of cool, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Which I can't say for a lot of different things now. [SPEAKER_03]: Again, is that an optical illusion out of no, but no. [SPEAKER_03]: It looks like it's genuinely small, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Which is nice. [SPEAKER_00]: So you're going to have working with homes with programs.

[SPEAKER_00]: Made you start using homes to get a little one and go down the homes to wrap up a little. [SPEAKER_00]: You mean for myself? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my smart home, as I said, I started already out before Nuki was there. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was also before home assistant was there. [SPEAKER_01]: Because I always, you know, I always followed the evolution of the different platforms. [SPEAKER_01]: And home assistant definitely was the rising star.

[SPEAKER_01]: Over the last ten years, out of all the platforms that were there in, say, ten years ago, it made definitely the biggest step of all the platforms that are kind of open source, Linux based, allow you to play around.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I always hated that I have not started out with homocy's, the first place. [SPEAKER_01]: Because yeah, you know that the stupid thing is when you have your smart home set up to a certain degree, it's always a hurdle to move over. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and for sure. [SPEAKER_01]: I have some for my own home. [SPEAKER_01]: I have something lost of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That I adhered and one of those philosophies is that I want to make automation and because they are named automation, they should run automatically. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: So I tried to make my smart home help me automatically without. [SPEAKER_01]: So my smart home is not just an interface. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't replace my light switches with intelligent light switches.

[SPEAKER_01]: If the light switch just turns on and off the light, because for that I don't need intelligence. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: I have replaced light switches in some rooms, so wholeways, with just duplicate movement sensors. [SPEAKER_01]: Because when you work for the room, it turns on the light after two minutes, it's off. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need more intelligence for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need fancy blue, yellow, whatever lights in my hallway. [SPEAKER_01]: It's always the same. [SPEAKER_01]: It just needs to turn on and turn off again, automatic. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what it does. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need even smart home system for that. [SPEAKER_01]: It could be any stupid movement sensor that turns it on for two minutes. [SPEAKER_01]: So, good to go with this, go with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And many of the donations I have built are based on these principles, so they don't really have a user interface. [SPEAKER_01]: You are the user interface with your presence, basically. [SPEAKER_01]: But the ultimate is something on top. [SPEAKER_01]: And then for those things, it's hard to switch platforms because it don't have an additional gain. [SPEAKER_01]: If it works already right now, what do I get from a new platform? [SPEAKER_00]: And that also has a hundred percent sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and one of the most interesting things of home assistant is that well has a very broad range of things to integrate. [SPEAKER_01]: You can integrate almost everything, but you also get the locking side of it. [SPEAKER_01]: So you have put the graphs and all of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: stupidly for my system I already had set up a graphana render all of that so I already have all the graphs which means I would need to rebuild the graphs again so yes that's why I'm always hesitant to shoot a really move-over it would be it's a lot of effort because all the automations you need to reprogram and built on your platform and at the very end I end up based case with the same thing so that's why I didn't move yeah

[SPEAKER_01]: Then one thing I did is I tried to use, because one aspect of homicides involved the front end, so you can use it just as a universal front end for everything. [SPEAKER_01]: I tried that first, because most of the people in my home are iOS users, so I tried to use Apple Home for it, so I used Home Bridge and basically brought through Home Bridge my smart home into Apple Home, basically. [SPEAKER_01]: Then I gave my family the front end and found out that they don't use it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you said, like, present is enough. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: If everything is set up to work automatically and you have presence, and you have switches here and there for some automations, you don't need it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it didn't use it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it basically died off. [SPEAKER_01]: So even when homebridge stopped working for whatever reason, no one complained. [SPEAKER_01]: So I said, okay, why do we maintain this?

[SPEAKER_01]: So also they front and aspect isn't there and that's the main reason why I haven't switched the home assistant myself. [SPEAKER_01]: I set it up several times. [SPEAKER_01]: I also have an instance running and my lock is connected to it. [SPEAKER_01]: But actually I don't do anything with it because I would need to move over all the automation and everything and that was just too much. [SPEAKER_00]: And for what benefit, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like because no one's going to notice the lights are still going to turn on when you walk into a room. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess the climate's going to be controlled at the same way. [SPEAKER_00]: Like you're absolutely right, but if presence enough, like if you don't use, if you're not using it as an interface, [SPEAKER_00]: There is little benefit to moving.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would feel the same like I do use home assistant, but even if something the business was to come out like what would be the benefit in moving I'd have to move all those automations over. [SPEAKER_00]: No one else in the home except for me uses the interface. [SPEAKER_00]: And even then it's just to control things that aren't automated. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I totally get that. [SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of things, you can do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also noticed the Thomas assistant went a lot this direction of energy. [SPEAKER_01]: I actually say that there's been that has been my first four ray. [SPEAKER_01]: So I haven't I didn't build my house. [SPEAKER_01]: I purchased it. [SPEAKER_01]: So I can only retrofit. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, first thing I did was put solar panels on the roof. [SPEAKER_01]: So that you put a battery in the cello, so you have your own power.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can use, of course, when you have too much power, you try to charge your car, you switch on some blocks here and there, that I don't know the bump of the pool is connected to the solar window is enough energy, you run the bump, if it's raining, you run the bump less, or no bit all, and those automations. [SPEAKER_01]: They are all set up, no one uses them, but they're very useful, because actually they just work. [SPEAKER_01]: They make yourself money on the energy bill.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are good for the environment, because I use my own energy and not the one that comes out of the grid. [SPEAKER_01]: It just feels good when things run on your own. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's been the philosophy. [SPEAKER_01]: And in terms of user interface as much as we can do with presence, the better it is. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a fan of that. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's for my private home, but it's also for Nuke. [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think the ideal, what's the ideal dolog?

[SPEAKER_01]: The ideal dolog actually unlocks when you want to walk through. [SPEAKER_01]: It automatically recognizes it's you. [SPEAKER_01]: It says, okay, I know you didn't, you're insecure, he can go through. [SPEAKER_01]: I just disappear. [SPEAKER_01]: The ideal door is like a door on StarDrag. [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: It knows when you want to walk through, it disappears and closes after you. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the ideal door.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the direction I want to drive new key. [SPEAKER_01]: We should offer you the ability to have the ideal door. [SPEAKER_01]: Then how close are we? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, for some things it would take some time. [SPEAKER_01]: because we cannot make the door disappear, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You still have no idea. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, handle and open and look. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe in the future, we can make it disappear. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's maybe enough future. [SPEAKER_01]: This is this is a way currently. [SPEAKER_01]: We can just retrofit on existing one. [SPEAKER_01]: Then, of course, for presence, we sometimes need helpers. [SPEAKER_01]: So we need to take our phones as saying, okay, it has presence. [SPEAKER_01]: We can use our fingers. [SPEAKER_01]: So we have some biometrics.

[SPEAKER_01]: We might also see face at the other things coming up, but I believe strongly in that ideally it just works and you don't need to think and you don't need any tools for it to work.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the ideal door, it just unlocks and locks and you don't have to think about it. [SPEAKER_01]: The door is literally getting out of your way. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, and it's an important thing is you don't have to think. [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't have to think about caring case. [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't have to think about locking it. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm long. [SPEAKER_01]: It should just work. [SPEAKER_01]: Just do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you shouldn't know that it even exists, right? [SPEAKER_03]: I think that the lock exists. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the ideal scenario. [SPEAKER_01]: When you drive away from home, you shouldn't think about whether I lock the door or not. [SPEAKER_01]: It should just, out of your breath. [SPEAKER_01]: It's always locked when I go. [SPEAKER_01]: So I have trusting to the system. [SPEAKER_01]: It works. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to fake.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not there yet, but that's the journey that fascinates me and that's why I'm still doing this after being used because I would have never thought we can spend eight years on just locking your own doors. [SPEAKER_03]: Now that's fair. [SPEAKER_03]: And one of some of the things that we saw, we were feeling I were at CS.

[SPEAKER_03]: in in January this year and and some of the things that we saw there were people with locks that had like if not like five six eight different ways of opening them right there's there's number pads there's facial there's finger print there's I don't even know what's great on prints. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah so like. [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think are in your opinion? [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think are effective and ineffective ways of locking and unlocking your door?

[SPEAKER_03]: Both from a practicality perspective, but also from a security perspective. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's always, I would always start from the use case. [SPEAKER_01]: And the use case is that I want to go through my door or unlock my door as if what less is possible. [SPEAKER_01]: So that starts already with the device. [SPEAKER_01]: If it's the device I carry with me, and if it has a way already right now to detect its me, I should be able to use it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, in France, typically it is from it has Bluetooth, NFC, Archivite, and whatever stuff built in, we should make use of this. [SPEAKER_01]: That was very easy in the old days, because in the old days, they just had Bluetooth and Apple and Google in all of them, they opened up Bluetooth pretty wide. [SPEAKER_01]: So you could do everything with Bluetooth. [SPEAKER_01]: Once they discovered that there is money behind, they started to lock it down.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, and you see, it's locked down, archer-wide, when it's locked down, everything is locked down, which is a pity, because we carry stuff around that we just can't use. [SPEAKER_01]: So now those things are opening up and they are creating some, maybe, as they can access it. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's mainly the NFC and an ultra-bitant portion that is bundled into earlier and that's coming. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's an interesting thing because it's using a technology I carry around.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say the same is for biometrics, you carry them around. [SPEAKER_01]: But the usefulness is defined by [SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, the security, but also what do I have to do in front of the door? [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine you would have watched the season in front of the door with whom you speak. [SPEAKER_01]: Is there something people liked? [SPEAKER_01]: I guess no. [SPEAKER_01]: Because when you stand in the hallway and start to speak with your door, it's too slow.

[SPEAKER_01]: As soon as I start to say the sentence, I'm ready to slow.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it needs to fulfill the promise that you can effortlessly walk through. [SPEAKER_01]: If it takes five seconds for adenticating you lost, [SPEAKER_01]: If it takes five seconds to raise your hand and wave somewhere around, forget it. [SPEAKER_01]: If face detection is nice, but if face detection takes five seconds, the deck is too slow. [SPEAKER_01]: So those things need to fit together in order to serve the use case.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what worked pretty well in the past is fingerprint because it's quite cheap, it works in battery driven devices, it's relatively quick.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think face at the also has a good future and everything that isn't devices that we already carry around. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think if you have an, if you carry a watch and watch as I have see, it should just naturally be an option for use for you to use NFC because you have it already with you. [SPEAKER_01]: Why not?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Then of course, if, if this thing is on your door and you need to feed the around to get the watch there, it's not handy. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe for some use, it's lost because it's just too complicated to get there. [SPEAKER_03]: Or if you're holding bags of groceries and stuff like that heavy things, it's hard to tap on the... Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: So those are things that are going to hinder the use case.

[SPEAKER_01]: Same as if you're carrying a cap in winter all the time and the face that it doesn't work because of the cap or the glasses, it's the lost case. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I also believe is there will be different options, also different options on use cases, but you need to pick it up in a way so that consumers understand what it is. [SPEAKER_01]: There are some companies out there that try to offer you as many possible options in just one product.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Most certainly you have a trade-off. [SPEAKER_01]: It's either too complex to set up or it doesn't work properly or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm more a fan of half the things in there that matter most and make them good rather than trying to have everything in there and creating a mess that nobody understands. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and that's what I found with a couple of the devices that we saw. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like it's almost too much in there, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, there's so many ways of utilizing this thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's, I don't know, it's almost overwhelming, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Even even for person setting it up.

[SPEAKER_03]: for me to like we talked about the protocols right that's fine because again I can set it up one way or the other and then and then I don't have to think about the rest but here it's like okay if I turn on every single feature great then what is it that I'm going to use to because this again the protocol is one time set up and it's done I don't care if it uses Wi-Fi matter whatever after that point

[SPEAKER_03]: But what I'm interacting with the device and I have a decision to make of which one of these six different ways to do what one to open it, every time I open it, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: That's a bit of a... [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you don't need that many options. [SPEAKER_01]: So for our blog, for example, it's very easy. [SPEAKER_01]: If you have the Nuke app and you turn on Auto Unlock, it will typically auto unlock before you are ready to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: If that doesn't work for whatever reason and you use the fingerprint as a failover, you're super happy and everything is done.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you have your phone with you, it will automatically unlock if the phone isn't there, you just put the finger there and you're good to go. [SPEAKER_01]: That's very, you know, you don't need much more than that. [SPEAKER_01]: for many consumers, that's already enough. [SPEAKER_01]: So why have free, maybe, and different options that sales confused people? [SPEAKER_01]: When this is a very good combination, you work with. [SPEAKER_03]: I agree. [SPEAKER_03]: I agree.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you have your fail-safe there and you have your, like, and you have, I mean, like, what you show it to keep at, too. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And then when you have it far back. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And the same is when you walk away and you want to look, either you double press on the device or you press the back key here and then it locks into you. [SPEAKER_01]: So you basically close the door, press the back key and you walk off and this is it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that makes sense. [SPEAKER_03]: It's, that's like, even my current door lock, it's, it's, I actually hate it, but there's, it's good in the sense that I can, same thing, I, I close the door, I press a lock button and I just will leave, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's, uh, it's a keypad one, right? [SPEAKER_03]: The one built in, whatever, but it's, I don't know, it's simple enough, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And it's, even when my wife comes in, whatever she loves using, I'd love if it had a proximity feature, right, where it's like, I walk up to it and it unlocks or whatever. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you win some release. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Why make things complex when there is also an easy way. [SPEAKER_01]: That's it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's it. [SPEAKER_03]: Perfect. [SPEAKER_03]: You're good. [SPEAKER_03]: Where can where can people find you? [SPEAKER_03]: Where can people find Nuki? [SPEAKER_03]: We'd love to make sure our listeners connect with you guys. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Nuki.io. [SPEAKER_01]: So our website just go on it. [SPEAKER_01]: Look at the products.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're [SPEAKER_01]: We're available in many Europe, of course, but also in the US. [SPEAKER_01]: And in some other countries, we have integrations. [SPEAKER_01]: So you can also find that somewhere on the homosystem forums. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can search around if you're interested for other people who have integrated tokens. [SPEAKER_01]: You can also contribute there. [SPEAKER_01]: We have a developer forum where you can search for stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can also ask for changes. [SPEAKER_01]: You can bring in feature requests. [SPEAKER_01]: So you can actively try to participate if you want to. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can also sign up to beta program, or download beta firmware there, actively contribute with your setup to making a new computer. [SPEAKER_01]: We are happy to have that in the end, of course. [SPEAKER_01]: We like everyone to share positive experiences with all of our product. [SPEAKER_01]: If it is happy with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because in the end, what I'm motivated in is helping other people to get rid of those crazy keys that we all carry around.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the more people know that such products exist, the better it is. [SPEAKER_01]: Because honestly, many people out there still don't know that smart looks exist. [SPEAKER_01]: And that they're so easy to watch. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that many people think you have to, you have to study something in order to mount a smart look. [SPEAKER_01]: No, you don't have to. [SPEAKER_01]: You can just get one. [SPEAKER_01]: You can retrofit it. [SPEAKER_01]: You can use our app.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can lay the wrong heaven home. [SPEAKER_01]: A smart home where you integrate. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need one. [SPEAKER_01]: It's simple. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really simple thing. [SPEAKER_03]: That's awesome. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you're getting anything else to add anything. [SPEAKER_03]: Anything you want to you want to finish with. [SPEAKER_03]: Beyond there. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe congrats over to you at Home Assistant.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Home Assistant really essentially, already before it evolved as a rising star from all of the different initiatives that I've followed during the last ten years. [SPEAKER_01]: And it still does for us. [SPEAKER_01]: It's always been very nice to work with you guys. [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever we had a new feature in Meta or wherever it first showed up in Home Assistant, [SPEAKER_01]: When we wanted to have a frontend implementation, the way done, we think it makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: We worked together with you on it, you built it. [SPEAKER_01]: And we were able to show others actually how you have done it. [SPEAKER_01]: So you are a role model. [SPEAKER_01]: continue with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's very helpful and it's very important that we have such initiative that there are not just the big ones who are building smart homes that you are there, that you are opening an open platform that can also work locally but remotely and make smart homes easier for consumers. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's very important to have this. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a whole bit up together. [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone rises, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we always hope each other rises up. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, yeah, where the climate's and project is done really well. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, great. [SPEAKER_03]: Perfect. [SPEAKER_03]: You're again, thank you so much for joining us today. [SPEAKER_03]: This has actually been really insightful for me, at least. [SPEAKER_03]: I learned a lot about the process and everything too. [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: And cheers. [SPEAKER_03]: Hope is the as soon.

[SPEAKER_03]: I pleasure. [SPEAKER_01]: Have a nice day. [SPEAKER_03]: Like what? [SPEAKER_00]: want to share your home's isn't journey or come on as a guest. [SPEAKER_00]: Reach out to us at feedback at haspodcast.io. [SPEAKER_00]: That's HAS podcast.io. [SPEAKER_02]: The home assistant podcast is hosted by Phil Hawthorne and myself, Rohan Keremandi. [SPEAKER_02]: For links to topics we discussed today, check out our show notes on haspodcast.io.