From SimpliSafe to Matter: We’re re-visiting Aaron

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to the home Mrs. and podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: My name's Phil. [SPEAKER_02]: Join me as usual. [SPEAKER_02]: I've got Rihum. [SPEAKER_02]: Tatering Night. [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, get Harry.

[SPEAKER_02]: very good thank you and all the way back from episode 32 of our podcast we have Aaron how you doing Aaron nice to see you guys little little wiser but here we are once again great to be with you that's it that's what I like it well this podcast is sponsored by home Mrs. and Cloud by Nabukasa for a small monthly fee you'll unlock powerful features like secure effortless access to your system from anyway your choice of voice assistance off-site backups

[SPEAKER_02]: It also supports the development of Home Assistant, SP Home, and other Open Home Foundation projects. [SPEAKER_02]: Click the link in the description to learn more. [SPEAKER_02]: We'd also like to give a shout out to our Patreon members, including our executive producers, Benny and Rob. [SPEAKER_02]: You can help support the show and get early access to episodes, all in an app free feed. [SPEAKER_02]: To support the show, check out Home Assistant.fm, and click Patreon in the menu.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you can't do that, we'd appreciate a like, comment, or writing wherever you're listening or watching us today. [SPEAKER_02]: It really helps us out. [SPEAKER_02]: Aaron, thank you so much for joining us today. [SPEAKER_02]: Once again, as I said, it was actually 32 we last had you on, which was the release of home assistant 0.70 and it was in August 2018. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been a little bit of a minute. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, thanks.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you too, I always see you around on GitHub, like you are telling me if I'm wrong, but I'm from my opinion, you're very much so active in the home assistant, project, plugging away. [SPEAKER_02]: I think last time we had you on, you had done a rain machine, it's a grocery factor. [SPEAKER_02]: I think you've done some other integration work as well. [SPEAKER_02]: Can you catch something? [SPEAKER_02]: Are you still developing on-home?

[SPEAKER_02]: What do you... [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what are the components you're touching at the moment? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's interesting, really since we last talked about it, you know, it felt like at the time, I was just kind of really starting to get my feet wet, not only as a home assistant developer, but as a user, you know, we were in our first home.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was the, um, [SPEAKER_01]: the spot where we were able to kind of put our first, you know, compendium of automation gear in place. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Rain Machine was sort of the first kind of for a into developing, you know, for the project.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, just by an interesting way of remembrance, and at the time, one of my big drivers at getting involved with the project was, you know, I was at a point in my career where, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't a software-developer anymore as managing software developers, which has its own joys, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: But of course, I think to be a good leader, you had to kind of make sure your team was the one that could own the product and you couldn't be the one diving into code anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, as much as I love that, I just felt like, man, this itch is missing. [SPEAKER_01]: And I need to scratch it and homelessness to provide it, that's really great opportunity to [SPEAKER_01]: participate in a really, you know, prolific project, keep my skills sharpen and whatnot.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, kind of going from rain machine, it probably the big ones that I think about, you know, I took over ownership of the simply safe integration, the security system that, you know, DIYers love to a degree, we can dive into all the nitty gritty details there, but simply save us probably the primary one that I still am pretty heavily involved in. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, ambient weather station. [SPEAKER_01]: I did a tile integration back in the day.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those little blue tooth track. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I still use those to love those. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: There was, it was definitely a point where I was ravenous. [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about man. [SPEAKER_01]: What are the devices I can add to home assistant? [SPEAKER_01]: And I was almost pleased when I found ones that didn't have an existing integration because it provided me an opportunity.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, um, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're in lies, I think the challenge of open source development is many of us would say You can have seasons of prolific output and you can have seasons of thinking oh my goodness All this is kind of resting on my back But you know, I'm still incredibly proud of just even getting to be associated with this project You know, as time's gone on here's many other friends and members of our family have become homocystic users

[SPEAKER_01]: To me, it just gets still remains, I think, one of the best ways when somebody who's non-technical asks, what has open source software? [SPEAKER_01]: What does that really mean? [SPEAKER_01]: Without delving into dev speak, I can say, look at this project, look at these people, look at what they've created and the impact that's having around the world. [SPEAKER_01]: I've yet to come across a project quite like that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's a great point.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's multifaceted, right? [SPEAKER_04]: And it's funny, because we always talk about this on the podcast, but you're actually doing it, which is it's still, you know, whether it's you're upscaling yourself to learn a new skill or in your case, Aaron, it's more of keeping yourself continuing to stay sharp, right? [SPEAKER_04]: And in an aspect of your life, say you're not really doing anywhere, or aspect of your career, you're not really doing anywhere in terms of coding.

[SPEAKER_04]: right and moving in more into a leadership role kind of thing so that's yeah that is pretty awesome and yet a community is just amazing and that's a great way to point out and describe like oh yeah here like you can you can do this thing like look at this right what's uh here's what's cool about it so [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been such a pleasure to kind of watch and watch the community continue to build a system that is is so robust.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually interesting that we're talking now, you know, I've actually, since, you know, we all last connected it, I've had a pretty kind of abrupt change in my career where I have returned to being a startup founder on a CTO, but that means I'm in the weeds and coding all day every day on our business.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's been this interesting transition for me, and we also happen to have a one-year-old man, what an interesting decision that was to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have to raise a one-year-old and have

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you why, yeah, but you're going to learn a lot about myself through that process. [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, what's so interesting to kind of think about what home assistant is to me now, but previously when I got involved, I was the quintessential endless tinkerer. [SPEAKER_01]: It was equal parts, keeping my skill sharp, equal parts hobby, equal parts kind of lifestyle in many ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, right, now in this season of life, with these two things, you know, work, [SPEAKER_01]: kind of demands the majority of my day energy, my family is where I want to place my outside of that energy. [SPEAKER_01]: And I've started to have those moments of homelessness or otherwise, oh my gosh, like my brain is slipping off of things that I used to understand intrinsically. [SPEAKER_01]: And what's really special about homelessness in this season is, it has evolved with me.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's an alternate reality in which I made this change and this carefully crafted system that I had helped put together and bolt together just crumbled because I was no longer able to devote my full energy to it. [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll dive into this. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure what I have found is far from that, not only is it maintaining its utility and it's such a critical component of our life.

[SPEAKER_01]: My point in my own life right now is such that I kind of need to be told exactly what the next thing I'm doing is. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so focused on the work or the raising a child or whatever, you know, my brain is very focused on just the next step. [SPEAKER_01]: Home assistant is really starting to help me do that. [SPEAKER_01]: It's shifted from being the Tinkerers landscape into, okay, you're working. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what you need to focus on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you haven't, you've been sitting at your desk for a while. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what you need to do now. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're about to put your sun down. [SPEAKER_01]: You forgot to start the dishwasher. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just interesting how, like a good friend in some ways, it has evolved with me. [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't demand that I remain who I was in order to participate, which is kind of cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think, would you say that that's also because the product or the project itself has matured in that it's more stable now as opposed to, you know, back in the zero release days. [SPEAKER_02]: In that, you know, it doesn't, you're not having so much breaking changes, you know, you're not waking up to a rebooted instance that's reset itself. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just there. [SPEAKER_02]: It's stable.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, and I, you know, all the credit to the team I know, you know, Frank has taken over kind of the grand engineering efforts. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, unbelievable kudos to everybody for exactly that fill it. [SPEAKER_01]: They, you know, there was a point in time. [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when we, when I first got engaged with homocyst and then, and this is not any shade towards the project, but it was a tinkerers landscape. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a disaster.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: You guys remember that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the big, the big moment of realization for me was actually fairly recently. [SPEAKER_01]: my right in time for us to have our first child, my mother and mom moved in about five six minutes away from us into a nice new home. [SPEAKER_01]: And it took a while, but one of our Christmas gifts to her was let's get you hooked up with some home automation and we've got the platform for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Setting up, you know, we got her the home assistant green, you know, gone or the days of a raspberry pie or some vm, I'm hosting some. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And I had a reaction, guys, when we set that up, I had this sort of duality of incredible just awe, and also frustration, like this is too simple to set this up now. [SPEAKER_01]: What am I supposed to do? [SPEAKER_01]: What is going to go wrong?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was one of my first old man home assistant moments of maybe, like, you don't get it back in my day. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, but I just remember setting her up in New East, she has Z-Wave and we've got also simply safe and all this stuff in there. [SPEAKER_01]: And her house is up and running with not just the connections, but meaningful automations that we put together in like 30 minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, there's a part of my brain back and like, well, you know, at about week seven, I think we had, you know, pieces and parts of this. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you're absolutely right, Phil, the dedication, [SPEAKER_01]: in the longevity.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now that I'm back in full-time professional software development, I am re-connecting with that strange duality of having passion for your craft, but also having to have pretty consistent energy to stick with something over a long haul. [SPEAKER_01]: But people involved in this project have stuck with it for the long haul.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, in the latest release notes, you know, obviously there's so much to talk about in there, but a Frank mentioned something where, you know, you're seeing here what is the results of a two year effort, I can't recall an open source project that wasn't sponsored by some big corporate entity where people collectively decided they were going to spend two years working to work something.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the tier point fell that the longevity, but also the dedication to that longevity, there's an alternate reality, which homelessness didn't turn out that way and holy moly has it turned out that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is crazy and I think like Kudos to everyone at home, it's just right like they're just a whole team of people, departments and everything working on this whole ecosystem now and because they're all on mission, like they can take two years to develop a an idea and refine it and test it out and then put it into practice. [SPEAKER_02]: You just mentioned there that you set up your mother-in-law with home citizen green.

[SPEAKER_02]: When we last spoke, you were using a Raspberry Pi 3, and I think one of your claims was that you've never had an SD card failure. [SPEAKER_02]: What are you running homemisson on tonight? [SPEAKER_02]: Did you ever get an SD card failure? [SPEAKER_01]: I avoided it and that's not anything I did. [SPEAKER_01]: I just I made a bold claim and I never got bit by it. [SPEAKER_01]: So that all worked out. [SPEAKER_01]: It's lucky.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we, you know, kind of it's interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: So since we last talked and COVID happened and the world went home and there was a point in time where certainly being an executive at it, you know, software executive, but also have a lot of time on my hands like a tinker even more than I was tinkering for.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I went down the road of [SPEAKER_01]: And it's still running now that a little kind of IBM think station running Prox Marks will always be end and stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh nice. [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool. [SPEAKER_01]: There is a little part of my brain now that's like, oh my goodness, if this thing breaks, like what am I going to do? [SPEAKER_01]: It's such an interesting philosophical argument, but that's not an option for it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've never tested my backups, Roya, and which is better than one. [SPEAKER_01]: That's presumer and good, Jay. [SPEAKER_01]: Eradam. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean, you know, it's so interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: That used to be a such an incredible point of pride that I run a homocyst in the VM. [SPEAKER_01]: I've got all these peripherals connected through proxmox, and I'm running all sorts of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now, you know, setting up my mother-law with the green and before they decided to retire it, you know, back, I think when we talked, I was just setting up my parents with the home assistant on a Raspberry Pi. [SPEAKER_01]: We graduated them to a yellow. [SPEAKER_01]: There is a part of me. [SPEAKER_01]: I love, you know, and I love how sharpened my capabilities were on my own home set up. [SPEAKER_01]: The part of me is a little jealous of me.

[SPEAKER_01]: You guys just plug in this hub and it's good to go. [SPEAKER_01]: There is a delightful like I'm craving simplicity in my life right now and it's just interesting how the sides of my brain are warring with each other. [SPEAKER_01]: The technologist who believes you can do anything and then the one who looks at how far this has come and of course the the jealousy is a bit tongue and cheek.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just it's such a cool example of how this project [SPEAKER_01]: And not just the project itself, let's call out that when we talked last now because it didn't exist and the open home foundation didn't exist and what what brilliant thinking that this this ought to outlive all of us, you know, in a bigger sense. [SPEAKER_01]: And but there was a point in time where I remember.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we were very focused on developers and we were developers and we were developer use cases, and I remember the articles being written by, you know, ours technica is he has cool platform, but you got to be pretty tech savvy, and this is not, you know, for typical people, and that was always a little bit of a black mark, and now I, you know, my, you could put this in front of somebody who's quote unquote non-technical, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who couldn't get up and running in some meaningful way, and

[SPEAKER_01]: So, but to your question, Phil, there's a part of me that goes, oh God, uh, I hope my beloved little setup continues to run here, but if not, I'll tell you what. [SPEAKER_01]: There may as long as this kind of season of my life continues, you may be, you may see me procuring a pre-built out pretty quickly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, and I get the ability to, I have a home screen as just like a, I think it runs my matter server, only because like, home screen has the home, this isn't OS, but my main instance that runs my house is just a repurposed old desktop PC that runs Docker.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I don't have add-ons, I don't have the whole, or I miss an always experienced, and when I go to that green, like, you know, oh, I can just download that add-on, or I can just download that, and now it's running, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't have to worry about Doc commands and compose files. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and being that guy that moved from, you know, the Docker setup, all that stuff to, to, I mean, I'm running mine on my yellow right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: But, [SPEAKER_04]: It is that that home assistant OS experience is pretty delightful, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Like, and and don't be wrong, I still have ton of Docker stuff I run in home. [SPEAKER_04]: I've got prospects running. [SPEAKER_04]: I've got whatever I've got a cluster of stuff. [SPEAKER_04]: But. [SPEAKER_04]: This is one where I'm just like, you know what, I need a little more availability on it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want whatever I'm playing with to break this or any of that kind of stuff. [SPEAKER_04]: So here it is. [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm dedicated a little appliance. [SPEAKER_04]: I'll make the exception and have a, again, and a separate hub essentially for that, right? [SPEAKER_04]: And then with the advent of being able to say, hey, here's my remote BLE stuff using [SPEAKER_04]: Z-way of antenna here. [SPEAKER_04]: That's now remote, right? [SPEAKER_04]: It works great, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Because it's in a server economy. [SPEAKER_01]: It looks excellent on your rack, like you're racked behind you. [SPEAKER_01]: There are what a nice piece of art that antenna is. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's right. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's funny, because I actually kind of like it there, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I [SPEAKER_00]: You're suddenly the reverse whistleblower that you never intended to do. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: So that didn't end.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fascinating thing though, the question when we last talked, this organization was not producing a hardware, not like, and a beloved developers like, okay, I've run, we've known a lot of developers. [SPEAKER_01]: I know people who produce hardware cool, super neat projects. [SPEAKER_01]: They are not looking terribly great. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not something you can mom for a mother's day.

[SPEAKER_01]: how cool we've got hubs, we've got voices systems, you've got antennas and there's the same attention to the craft that the core experience has.

[SPEAKER_01]: My goodness, this is just I wonder and I really hope that anybody engages with this project and this organization understands you are witnessing something that is like this maybe a once in a generation collective effort here that isn't owned by some [SPEAKER_01]: and that the attention to detail that care for the craft and then it's it's available to people around the world. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were talking before we started here, you know, how we contend to be a narrow plan is using Wi-Fi and complain how slow it is for getting that we're using Wi-Fi and a narrow plan. [SPEAKER_01]: What a special thing that this organization doesn't just make wonderful software. [SPEAKER_01]: It's made an experience in an ecosystem to say nothing of all the partnerships that they've got going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, what just, you know, short amount of time five, five years or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: It's been here for a little bit more. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not a long time for that level of progress. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that I agree. [SPEAKER_04]: I can't stop it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, last time we spoke, so you had the Raspberry Pi 3, back then, I think abdomen was a big thing, and you might have been using, I think it was no red as well, I haven't heard of abdomen like in my circles for quite some time, are you still using abdomen, I haven't, you know, before, it was after we talked, but kind of before maybe pandemic timeframe, I remember I was still using abdomen and it wasn't, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know,

[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't necessarily because I needed to, I was a Python developer, and so I just liked the idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, skip ahead to where I'm at my life now, and if I'm on the road somewhere in my wife and son, trying to get ready for bedtime and automations are breaking out, I don't want to be like, wire guarding in somewhere to edit Python stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: I know it's still an active project, because I think it's a way for those that might be familiar is that you can run like a Python script instead of, you know, home is nimble automations or automations on the UI.

[SPEAKER_02]: look app that would power you to write, you know, and you could do things like classes and hierarchy and all that. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to probably develop myself, but I'm imagining, you know, it's much more of a program as tool to develop automations around the home with. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, and it, you know, one of the powers of it is it has, you know, another project that was just recalling Pi script is another one that's still very active, similar kind of concept.

[SPEAKER_01]: And of course it has elements of a traditional program in language that, you know, the homocystent UI editor, which is beautiful and so functional, may struggle to communicate like being able to do complex branches in a way that's not just straight if else or loops that kind of take different forms

[SPEAKER_01]: What is so interesting though, and I'm sure we'll talk about this plenty, the age that we're in of Generative AI and LLM is being sort of this black box that you can shove input into and get output from. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really curious, you know, and I love that Damon is a project of Pyscript as a project There will always be developers who want that kind of control.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that we're there yet, but I'm curious about a world in which [SPEAKER_01]: There are more and more kind of language model back to integrations with the NOMA system. [SPEAKER_01]: And the typical user is just shoving input into them and getting output. [SPEAKER_01]: And as long as that input and output is kind of structured, how you would expect, it's doing all the complex logic that it used to have a programming language to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am curious about that tonight. [SPEAKER_01]: I've got some 2018 app damings on the rise. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm using, I could have never expected that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I'm imagining a world of like right now we have helpers in home misses and right like you know Importantly in simple selects Maybe there's a new class of helper like isn't an AI helper right like and it's just got a focus thing Right, maybe you've got an AI helper to count the number of objects in a picture right and all and it's input is a picture and What you want it to count and it returns a number [SPEAKER_02]: like absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think about kind of the, you know, one of the, we talked about this I think previous previously, the one of my favorite sensors and always has been is that is the Bayesian binary sensor of them. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can't, yeah, I can't track this thing, but if I can sort of into it things around it, then I can make a statistical estimation whether something is true or false.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness, for my own work and you know, LMs can, with the properly structured data do that to the, to the, to the end degree, I'm interested to see more of those kind of moments of, you know, what, there's not just a kind of a algorithm somewhere that is doing things like present simulation, there is an LM that's chewing on

[SPEAKER_01]: Reams and Reams of database data to understand specifically when you are at home, we're not home And there's just a new kind of intelligence there that of course, you know, don't solve every problem But it is a tool in the toolbox that last time we talked I sure didn't see coming. [SPEAKER_01]: Not at all.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the things that I'm really enjoying lately, kind of, you know, this isn't gender-to-be-I specifically, but it's just indicative of maybe where I'm at in my journey. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I used to be, I used to be, so my career, I was a back-end engineer. [SPEAKER_01]: I was never a front-end. [SPEAKER_01]: I my front-end engineering ended like when Jake Weary was a thing in JavaScript.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so far behind, I'll never catch up. [SPEAKER_01]: And part of my challenge always was it's kind of like a person who can't play an instrument, but they've got a little ear from music and they can just sort of scratch what's going on with the music, but they're never going to be a musician.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of that way. [SPEAKER_01]: In this particular sense here in that way, I've kind of started to realize about the front and I was obsessed with building. [SPEAKER_01]: The perfect dashboard, it's got to look right, it's got to have the right stuff, it's got to be aesthetically pleasing, driving myself insane.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a ton of utility out of kind of the default home dashboard now that kind of surfaces your areas to you and it also surfaces to you looking at mine right now. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's my simply safe. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple of lights. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a little input boolean. [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to run our robot vacuum when we turn on good night mode. [SPEAKER_01]: What is interesting about this isn't the same as large language models.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm seeing here is something that is surfacing itself to me at a time when it seems to think I might need that particular function. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll tell you what, that's clicking with my mentality right now. [SPEAKER_01]: If I need to just figure out the next step I'm taking in my day-to-day, I'll thank God I didn't have to go look up it in some dashboard somewhere. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I agree with you.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I've said this a thousand times to I hate the process of I don't hate the process of I do hate the process of building dashboards when I'm done a dashboard and it looks beautiful and all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm very satisfied and then that satisfaction and so like the next day after I forget that I've just spent all this time doing this and whatever and then I'm like, well, crap, I just wasted, but [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, you let up the greatest in this thing and write it and someone's got, you know, the next best thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I think like, oh, yeah, I want to do it that way. [SPEAKER_04]: And it looks so good. [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: And then you're like, oh my god, this is so much better. [SPEAKER_04]: Why did I do that? [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, gone [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why, you know, one thing I've always loved about the project and I feel like it has continued. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm certain certainly, you know, using this is it never married itself to any one particular input modality.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, your UI was it at the beginning, but it didn't stay that way for long and it sort of became [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you want to build dashboards and that's your thing, knock yourself out. [SPEAKER_01]: You want to use a dashboard, we built for you great. [SPEAKER_01]: You want to make voice assistance, your thing, and you implement it, and you want to talk to your home. [SPEAKER_01]: Love it. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is a big one for me lately.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want to just let the automations run and let the system receive in the background, totally fine. [SPEAKER_01]: Especially as I think about so many different corporate software products that we've all used before, you know, it's rare to see, hey, pick the modality that makes sense to you. [SPEAKER_01]: It's usually it's we're going to pick the modality. [SPEAKER_01]: We think you're going to want to. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to shove it down your throat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful to just see how orthogonal the home assistant has been and how everything was designed in such a way so that it was modular. [SPEAKER_01]: It was it was peaceful and you could decide what you wanted to leave behind in a moment. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's, there's also one of those things where it's like, if it's built for everyone, it's built for no one, but in this case it more or less it built for everyone, right, that's right, that's not so good.

[SPEAKER_04]: Again, I will say that it is still. [SPEAKER_04]: complex, but to what you said earlier, you could probably pick it up and figure it out and not that long of a time. [SPEAKER_04]: I think there's some value there, but I think it can be a lot. [SPEAKER_04]: easier to at the same time with that said, right? [SPEAKER_04]: But like, kind of like you look at the home kid experience and that kind of stuff. [SPEAKER_04]: But then, you know, there's pros and cons with all those, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, certainly, you're absolutely right. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, there's always going to be those of us who you unbox the home kid experience and look how elegant it is and it just works as long as you purchase the correct devices, of course. [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, how many times have we, you know, been in a particular situation?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're technically savvy people, but even people who aren't necessarily, and, you know, I don't particularly like how you're telling me to use this, I would love to do this, all you can't do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I think we've yet to run into something short of an integration in homocyst and just not actively providing the functionality, which God bless the development community. [SPEAKER_01]: It's certainly the core team, the Nabikasa team, they are our anchor. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of the reams and reams and reams of people like myself who have just kind of chipped in their time.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is a rare moment that you want to do something with homocyst and you can't get there. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, well, whether it's absolutely complicated or whatever, but man, what a special thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, again, to our point here, one of the things I'm enjoying in this season, I used to kind of look at the forums and look at Reddit and [SPEAKER_01]: to your point right and I would kind of be like, oh man, you made a killer dashboard and well, look at that great automation like that. [SPEAKER_01]: I need to come up with something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you what right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am sponging people's ideas left and right because I just don't have to get brain power to come up with it myself. [SPEAKER_01]: There again, let's promote the community. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you everybody for making this what it is. [SPEAKER_04]: 100% 100% right and the community is a great way of doing that. [SPEAKER_04]: And again, the forums read it all of those sources, [SPEAKER_04]: has a lot of good ideas on their and stuff too, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Or sometimes people just be like, hey, look at what I did. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just like, that's cool. [SPEAKER_04]: I want to do that, how'd you do that, right? [SPEAKER_04]: And people are pretty usually pretty willing to share. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess underpinned in all this is, you know, in a world with a lot of its own challenges, what a neat, what a neat platform that not only produces tactile meaning, but it also produces, you know, we're talking to each other because of this project. [SPEAKER_01]: People are shared and stuff because of this project. [SPEAKER_01]: People are employed because of this project.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's an element of humanity at play here too, which gets lost, I think, again, in a lot of, oh, cool, I saw this thing on [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've talked about that forever, but I just feel like, man, what, in a short amount of time, this project went from really powerful kind of tinkerers thing to a force set up that a movement in a way and did it elegantly, which is not easy to do. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm still going, like it's not going down. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So you mentioned before, so we've mentioned a couple of times now. [SPEAKER_02]: You've got seasons in your life, and you've changed your season now, and you're now a father, and you've got a whole new career projection. [SPEAKER_02]: Have you had to, how stable has homelessness been through those seasons? [SPEAKER_02]: Have you had to tear it down and do a whole new automation? [SPEAKER_02]: Have you started from scratch?

[SPEAKER_02]: Or have you had like a sort of base amount of automation that have stayed with you and used in built on top of and described others away? [SPEAKER_02]: Good question. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm always a little, uh, hearing, uh, for lack of a word, NVS. [SPEAKER_01]: I would love, there's a part of me who loved to tear it down and start from scratch, just to see what I would do differently this time around.

[SPEAKER_01]: But interestingly enough, this is also a season in which the idea of tearing down and starting from scratch isn't incredibly stressful. [SPEAKER_01]: So for better words, it's been sort of a continuation of what we've run for many years. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, what I would say is, uh, I've noticed, just kind of jim, I know it's done. [SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed automations that we built long before this current season that have suddenly new utility that I didn't expect.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and then we've had automations where it's like, man, this has really changed, you know, this element of life. [SPEAKER_01]: I got to, we got to fill the gap here in order to do something and, [SPEAKER_01]: But both of those have had their kind of moments as an example, you know, one of the kind of automations we had earlier on that I built because I thought it was an interesting idea. [SPEAKER_01]: We never really used it all that much.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got one of the original kind of Xiaomi robot vacuums. [SPEAKER_01]: This sucker is all dented and scuffed, but he's running great.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: there was a point in time where I was just pleased as punch that we get to integrate that into home assistant and at one point i kind of started thinking about well you know pretty long pre-lm predictive intelligence stuff could we think about you know when should we run this vacuum automatically and the original jame is not terribly sad you can basically start it and stop it and so i kind of started to think well what are the times in which

[SPEAKER_01]: it might be nice to run a vacuum and my thinking was it's nice to run it when it's not a burden some in our path kind of thing so maybe that's when we go to bed maybe that's when we leave home I was all you know from the earliest stages I flopped a lot between scenes and scripts for the idea of states the home should be in

[SPEAKER_01]: But what we carry, you know, some we've used forever, you know, depart home is generally when we drive away from our house, it does various things, walk home versus drive home does different things, good night does different things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the vacuum I started to think, well why don't I just tie this to like, you know, if I flip on an input bully and when I say good night to our, you know, a lady of choice, a boy's lady of choice, it'll start the vacuum is [SPEAKER_01]: cool idea at the time, but in practice, just never really made sense. [SPEAKER_01]: It was always something we were forgetting to do, you know, whole host of reasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you what though now, with our little one running around, we have dirty floors. [SPEAKER_01]: We need to run our vacuum pretty regularly. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's become this really kind of interesting opportunity now to build automation that I extend that automation around. [SPEAKER_01]: OK, if I notice throughout the day the floor is dirty, I can talk to my voice assistant. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a two stage automation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Stage one is just, hey, we need to run the vacuum tonight. [SPEAKER_01]: And all that does is it just turned that input [SPEAKER_01]: And then good night is that that is driven into our brains when we are done for the good night arms this arms a security system locks the doors all that stuff, but now the house kind of responds with this little thing and but the sort of magic revelation there was.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm flying around with me these my wife's liner on these you know when our sons with us were trying to manage him and just being able to kind of turn and tell our voices isn't Hey, we need to run the vacuum tonight That is a God send in a way that I've never anticipated back when I thought oh, this would be a novel way to play with our vacuum [SPEAKER_01]: So, to your question, the evolution, there's been a lot of those kind of micro tweaks, you know, that things have shown up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mentioned the dishwasher, because we used to run our dishwasher like once every couple days, well with our sun, we run it every day or get a lot of dirty dishes. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: as happens when you, as you guys know this, we had an unexpected surprise of our dishwasher of 10 years finally jumped out and so we need to get a new one and of course they're all connected now. [SPEAKER_01]: We use the Bosch home connect.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I learned though to my detriment was if you set up, you know, we try to schedule our dishwasher to run out of kind of peak hours so we don't get charged huge rates by our utility provider. [SPEAKER_01]: But if you set up your schedule, [SPEAKER_01]: And then, whoops, you go, I forget to put this spoon in there and I open it and close it again and we're good to go, right? [SPEAKER_01]: No, you just killed your schedule.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize that initially, and it sounds silly, but man, when I'm coming down and I got a ton of meetings ahead of me, we're trying to get my son over to the daycare, not having a dishwasher done, and now I got to deal with that through the day that represents meaningful stress. [SPEAKER_01]: And so here again, a nice little multi-stage automation where I'm going to trust that we're going to run the dishwasher every night.

[SPEAKER_01]: When I, the one time during the day that I kind of open it and close it that flips an input Boolean says, OK, for that day, you've loaded this dishwasher at least once.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now we've tied it to good night with the kind of mobile alert so that when I run good night, if I've forgotten to reset the schedule, and I can tell is because the integration [SPEAKER_01]: I get a little priority notification, and my phone beeps at me, regardless of what mode it's in, and I can go, oh, that's right. [SPEAKER_01]: I need to remember to adjust our dishwasher schedule.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm really kind of leaning a lot on these simple automations to be my backstop. [SPEAKER_01]: So, that I don't have to remember these things as mesh. [SPEAKER_02]: How do you go with, I'm gonna go back to the vacuum cleaner for it's like toys being left around the house like that is the one thing that I just I haven't been able to get That's not all left to automate them, but it's just a robot vacuum trap, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: There'll be a hair tie left out or a ribbon somewhere and it's just it just destroys the [SPEAKER_01]: I have time. [SPEAKER_01]: What's your name? [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Phil. [SPEAKER_01]: I would drop everything. [SPEAKER_01]: You need like CCTV and your house scanning for things on the phone. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know what? [SPEAKER_01]: This is silly. [SPEAKER_01]: What? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't say good night until we clean up the, like, clean up things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Not in the ten that. [SPEAKER_01]: It just sort of worked out that way. [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, there's a great example though, I think of gosh, our, our minds is. [SPEAKER_01]: How do you? [SPEAKER_01]: How do we automate everything?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's something, you know, some of it I'm kind of learning is that there's always going to be automation that augments human behavior, there will be some automations that completely do everything for us, and I'm trying to get in the routine of like, okay, we do the dishes, we clean up the play area, we, you know, roughly put stuff away and then good night. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when we sort of agree we're going to start all these activities, kind of low brow.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what we're going to start all these activities, kind of low brow. [SPEAKER_02]: But that's what we're going to do. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Not in the fifth and then it's good habits to get into, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Then the house is tidy and you know, you've told the house what's going on and what you wanted to do for the day. [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I mentioned, you know, that's one side of kind of extending on amations that we always have. [SPEAKER_01]: There have been some net news things, right? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: And a buckletown to go build this one of the big ones for us. [SPEAKER_01]: We're really fortunate. [SPEAKER_01]: alternating Fridays, his grandma's watch him. [SPEAKER_01]: So one week it's my mom, one week it's his it's my mother-in-law back at school.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that's really important is, I want it to be able to do two things when our moms are over and this, by the way, coalesced into, well, anytime somebody's over, [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, I wanted to automatically have kind of a guest mode kick-on in our guest mode. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just disabling certain automations like the one that locks up our house if we're not there. [SPEAKER_01]: That's something I don't want triggering if we give guest mode down.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I started okay thinking about well, of course I can manually do that, but that's no fun. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay, I could set up like, you know, roughly, I know what their schedules are. [SPEAKER_01]: I could make corresponding animations. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that evolved into, well, what if we made a Google calendar and we put their schedules? [SPEAKER_02]: Because like, yeah, calendar, yeah, that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what this has evolved into now is this interesting combination of the calendar. [SPEAKER_01]: doing two things, enabling guest mode, and also enabling this slightly complex guest entry system wherein our moms who have iPhones, they can use the iOS shortcuts app we've given them a shortcut, and it has the ability to talk to various of our scenes, walk home, drive home, good night, all that kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, a lot we can talk about in there, but what's cool [SPEAKER_01]: security guide my brain, you know, trust our moms entirely. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like the idea of shortcuts just being out in the wild that could unlock our house at any point.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we've done here is we've got a really great system that kind of understands, okay, it's mom's scheduled time, that calendar kicks on, that turns on an input Boolean, and [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it does some stuff in the background to effectively say, if I get a shortcut from an ID number that looks like this and, you know, we've tied those together, then I'm going to go ahead and run the action good night, open up, you know, lock the house, whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's been just a really cool kind of realization of here again. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want to I want to make their lives easier. [SPEAKER_01]: One lives for any guests to be easier. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a season of life where a lot of times I've been caught on a wears of, oh my god, they're coming tomorrow and not set up for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now because I can kind of schedule it ahead of time on our calendars. [SPEAKER_01]: For them, or if we have family coming in to town, I just put that on our calendar and then it kicks on the ability for this shortcut to work to control various things in the house without having to onboard them into the full home assistant experience. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm pretty pleased with that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: nice is there are you are you doing any like because you said they're on the iphone ecosystem are you doing a home key or anything like that with not yet um and primarily you know the oldest devices in our house um are the z-wave locks that we got 10 years ago when they built the house I would love to upgrade them the kind of stickler and we can't quite bring myself to do it yet until they die um but you know there there is an interesting kind of notion there of man

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I'm talking about family members of varying levels of technical capabilities, it sure would be nice if they could just kind of come up and scan something and be ready to roll. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we'll see where we go from there. [SPEAKER_04]: That's awesome. [SPEAKER_04]: It's, I've recently found, so I just changed job certain new job, whatever. [SPEAKER_04]: And when you company, I guess they're locks all, they use some HID system.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know exactly what, but there's an app for it now and it ties into, I guess, some form of home key or work key, I guess. [SPEAKER_04]: And I've been using my Apple watch and my phone to open the doors. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, this is life-chache. [SPEAKER_04]: And I know, I know I'm like so behind. [SPEAKER_04]: If you be somebody who hosts a podcast on home automation and stuff like this, so first off, I've done it was literally like Monday.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, oh, wow, this is really cool. [SPEAKER_00]: Right, and you're not behind. [SPEAKER_00]: You're the every man, right? [SPEAKER_04]: This is life, right? [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to try and push your kid. [SPEAKER_04]: But what did I try? [SPEAKER_04]: I was a host, I'm relatable. [SPEAKER_04]: Let's do that. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not in some ivory tower that you can't understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I love that idea of more and more, what if you could, I keep tinkering with this idea, I'm going to see what my mental space expands to get there. [SPEAKER_01]: But with Home Assistant is the backbone, I am really weaving away from dashboards and manual controls and things, and I'm just thinking, [SPEAKER_01]: If I can talk, or I can use something I'm wearing, or something could just happen intelligently because that's what I wanted it to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would be the ultimate. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's funny, back when we talked 2018, you know, even before then when I first got involved with the project, I remember [SPEAKER_01]: I remember that V1 of the home assistant website in Paulus had written kind of a manifesto about his vision of the smart home, and I remember there was a lot of that in there. [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of kind of his own reflections on the difference between home control and home automation.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm lost sight of it for many years because I was just loving being in the weeds with building integrations and all of stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: But man, I'll tell you just what you're talking about. [SPEAKER_01]: Where I'm out right now, I mean, where we're all at as life evolves, just being able to talk at something, use something that's on your body or something that just works the way it should.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's such a delightful simplicity, and I'm not saying it destroys the [SPEAKER_01]: the tinkering that may be some people really enjoyed to do. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's cool to see that his original vision was there and I do think it's evolving that way to have more of these input modalities that don't require you to know what button to press at what time and where to find it and [SPEAKER_01]: Again, God bless, God bless home assistant.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to build 15 dashboards, have fun, go wild. [SPEAKER_01]: But for many of us who, for whom that is just a little bit of an overwhelming proposition right now, I just love the idea of the system working the way you want it to. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the dream, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Have you changed the way you decide on what to automate? [SPEAKER_02]: For example, do you still build something because it's possible?

[SPEAKER_02]: Or are you now taking more measure the protein out? [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I could automate this, but I won't because it might cause x, y. [SPEAKER_01]: What am I doing this? [SPEAKER_01]: That is the question of the moment. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it passed my mind. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I have a good number of ESP home devices around the house, which by the way, let's say nothing about how that project is evolved.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like goodness, uh, that the shared number of, you know, consumer electronic components and stuff that have become available. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is, is a whole podcast under itself. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but I got one in particular. [SPEAKER_01]: It's my garage controller.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this was from the season of Aaron just, [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna tinker because I can and this thing was kind of the the we most D1 mini board and it connected to a huge array I mean huge it can handle enough pins from maybe four or five sensors, but it had I had like ultrasonic distance sensors on top of our car So I could detect a bar car is running the garage I had of course the read sensors so I could detect if the doors open their clothes are opening or closing super yep

[SPEAKER_01]: There is a part of knock on wood, please. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm terrified that that thing is going to blow up at some point and get into the house through the garage or closing the garage is like 101 and I'm a little terrified that like I'm going to in my neighborhood, I'm going to become the home automation, I can't close this garage.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I'm kind of using my parents and my mother and I'm using them to kind of experiment with some more bespoke solutions, number one because I don't want them to [SPEAKER_01]: I want to have them deal with like ESP home devices all over the place, that terrifies me a little bit, but also it's there for a little experimentation just to see if something in mind blows up, what am I going to revert to?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, from my mother-in-law, we're experiencing with that little rat-go board, I forget the guy who made it, but the kind of plug-and-play up-and-grange board. [SPEAKER_02]: The Ratjadia. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Rage against a garage door. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. [SPEAKER_02]: I just saw, as we're recording this, Paul has put on LinkedIn, there was a New York Times article all featuring the creative of the RAPJDO.

[SPEAKER_02]: Go in there, come on. [SPEAKER_02]: It's awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I know. [SPEAKER_02]: I know. [SPEAKER_01]: I know. [SPEAKER_01]: I know. [SPEAKER_02]: I know. [SPEAKER_02]: I know. [SPEAKER_02]: It's fantastic. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to speak for a positive, and many of us have an internal rage vendetta against a certain organization that makes garage doors and kind of cover access prematurely.

[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, the loud projects like this to unfold. [SPEAKER_01]: So, to you add to your question, Phil, there's a lot of those where I'm thinking, well, would it be smarter for me to get a little my cute Chamberlain home kit thing like my folks have and it doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the thing I built, but it's sure is reliable and it's sure a lot easier and then maybe put like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you need to replace it, you can just buy a replacement and it's like it in. [SPEAKER_01]: That's it. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think Phil is a key point. [SPEAKER_01]: The thought right now of if [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think the majority of what we're doing here is fairly runs well, but it okay, so my garage controller or, you know, even my server that I'm running a home assistant view on, if that blows up, it just means that's time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have to dedicate to solving fixing vice-olution. [SPEAKER_01]: There's value in that. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm already thinking about it, you know, my son is one, but as he grows, like I'm excited to kind of have him engage with me in all this. [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also an element too where it's like, man, we're both my wife and I work in hard jobs, we're trying to raise him, be together as a family.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't want to dock hours and hours in my time into fixing something that should just work.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a good question and I'm glad you're bringing it up because I think I'm kind of hovering on the edge of kind of putting some stuff out there, testing some stuff, thinking about some stuff, kind of hoping that nothing changes [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I do think, you know, ESP home is there is a great example of, you know, it being a builder's platform, people, you know, putting together their components, 3D printing and closures, and that is not a bad thing in the slightest.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it should be. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that the world is looking for grandma to pick up random bespoke, you know, sensors that she could build.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it should be. [SPEAKER_01]: I met a phasin in my life at the moment, a season in my life where, you know, I'm not going to ever kick back to where we were before home assistant buying cloud products that are going to get shut down, that's frustrating. [SPEAKER_01]: But the number of things I'm building from scratch is definitely reduced and part of that's time, but part of it's also an inclination candidly.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's, it's funny, you were talking earlier about how much home citizens that created like people's full-time jobs and they got all this stuff. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, behold, same thing, there's full of companies that are built around them, right? [SPEAKER_04]: So you look, you look at Apollo Automation Ray, who we've had on the podcast before, like all their stuff is awesome. [SPEAKER_04]: Lewis said everything smart, home, same thing, awesome, all these behind-base.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right, and that's two of like a ton, right? [SPEAKER_01]: That's worth pointing out, right, and I say it's a builders platform, but also it became this incredible opportunity for other entrepreneurs out there to know you know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: I can bridge the gap between a builder platform and what every like so that's a that is well worth highlighting that this Holy Ghost system We're talking about it enabled a bunch of entrepreneurs to bring a vision to life, which is really cool [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Searching gears a little bit, you mentioned you, you know, when we first had you on your podcast, on the podcast, that was, you know, in your first house, so on and so forth.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, say, let's say you've, you've moved, what was that? [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it is, it is a story when you just thought, okay, because I scratch all of that, because I was definitely going to ask you. [SPEAKER_04]: Moving related questions. [SPEAKER_04]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: I have thought by thought though, if I can pretend I know where you're going, I did have, I did it up that thought recently, like, man, if I had to.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we live in Denver and Colorado, which is one of those cities where it's booming.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which is great except everything's hyper expensive not great and I have that thought of like oh my gosh If I move somewhere and I had to like put I'm a Z wave guy and I have a you know I want C waves which is where I'm gonna spend like hundreds and thousands of dollars just like outfitting a new house on Z wave stuff so it's interesting how we love our home You know it doesn't feel like it's enclosing a same way But there is no element of I maybe what we all feel which is I've put a lot of work into all this and

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, explaining all that or replicating all that, um, it's a, there's a, you know, the, the switching cost ideas is definitely very high there. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's, we love our house anyway, but there is an element of like me and it's nice that all this just works and I don't have to cut and my work day right now with I got 55 Z way switches to install. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you go about that using like smart provisioning like scanning QR codes to? [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say here again, um, one of the things that's been so fun to work on with my my mother last home is I'm a big, I'm a big fan of this juice brand. [SPEAKER_01]: I just like their products. [SPEAKER_01]: I like the cost of the products that I think they're high quality.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you know, they're part of the worst with home assistant program now. [SPEAKER_01]: So they're pushing out firmware days [SPEAKER_01]: Her house, you know, I had the luxury of knowing that brand well and kind of suggesting, okay, here's what I think you need in terms of dimmers and other stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just go straight Zeus all the way in. [SPEAKER_01]: The smart provisioning there, it was that was one of those moments fill of kind of feeling.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm frustrated how easy this is. [SPEAKER_01]: These people don't have any clue how difficult this used to be. [SPEAKER_01]: I think about back to the first Z-wave pre-S1 devices where just getting the thing to wake up and respond to the controller and I'm blanking on the name of the project now before Z-wave J.S. [SPEAKER_01]: came on the scene before it was included as part of the home assistant kind of global project.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was said where there was a way just to MKTT, which I think was. [SPEAKER_02]: That's wrong. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: There was like a plus app.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does that ring a bell? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god. [SPEAKER_01]: What I remember about it was driven by one guy, incredible developer who just speak briefly part of his leaving of the open source community was he was just hammered all the time with this isn't working and this product stinks. [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on? [SPEAKER_01]: And he's got burnt down on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I remember way back in the day, it was one guy, and he had this, you had to run it. [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't have add-ons at the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: You had to run this thing separately somehow, and it was the C++ app in the way, the way that you did, you like, V and C to into it so you could click around and do things, and I remember like we got a thermostat that was the way, but we didn't have a manifest for it, and we had to like write that manually, and [SPEAKER_01]: So, anyway, I think about that and then going to like, yeah, I'm scanning QR codes, I touched the switch three times and there it is and it works perfectly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which, but you know what, as we've talked about, it had that had to be the result if this was ever going to become what it's become. [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of this like snake eating itself. [SPEAKER_01]: If homocyst and became what it became because the effort was put into it to become what it became and it couldn't have gone any other way. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and that is a real pleasure. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah, okay, ZWJS is another just outstanding project.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you've my old devices are working perfectly. [SPEAKER_01]: I never worry about anything. [SPEAKER_01]: And that I credit to that team, um, but man, what, you know, unloading these zoos products and we put them in the wall and we scan a QR code and literally, you know, in an afternoon, all these, you know, dozens of switches are live and reporting and functional and.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her house is such that I think it was right as that beautiful Z-Wave antenna was released and I was like, do I need to buy one? [SPEAKER_01]: Not one. [SPEAKER_01]: We were fortunate because she's got so many wired switches, the mesh handles itself well enough. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But it was another one of those moments of like, dang, this has come a long way. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a neat reflective moment of the efforts of hundreds of people to get there.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, you just mentioned Zeus, so this is a perfect option because if you need to upgrade your smartphone, you really can't go past Zeus.

[SPEAKER_02]: Zeus have just updated their brand new Z-wave long-range Siren and Chime that at the Z-SC 50-800LR, you can trigger audio and visual LED alarms based on smart sensors or other conditions, and the audio speaker plays your own files, personalised automation, or there's a selection of a pre-loaded library. [SPEAKER_02]: Zeus are an official works with home assistant partner, helping network cast up by providing long-range devices for testing the home assistant connect ZWA2 radio.

[SPEAKER_02]: Zeus offer an affordable range of affordable and évited devices, including water leak sensors, water valve controllers, smart plugs, and sing controllers. [SPEAKER_02]: There's N78 High Power really, it allows you to control and monitor high-load appliances up to 40 amps, which is perfect for pool pumps, air compressors, and other high-power outlets. [SPEAKER_02]: For the best prices on all zoos products, head over to the smartesthouse.com.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the smartesthouse.com. [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I'm like great endorsement for getting to do a lot of what I'm glad this got great company and you know Just an interesting thing to think about it You know, talking about integrations and I've built over time Ray machine is one of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Guardian is another that was a water valve controller Both great pieces of hardware Since that point I you know in terms of Guardian I think that company is no longer I'm fortunate that the API was all local so nothing theoretical way but okay [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't know necessarily Rayne Machines position right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know there was a point in time where they were really going to start charging for remote access and I just gave the indication that maybe they weren't doing terribly well. [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting now to your earlier question, Phil, something where to change. [SPEAKER_01]: I look at an organization like Zeus and I look at, okay, if Rayne Machines really dies on me here, could I not get kind of a simple little 10 gauge relay from Zeus and make that my sprinkler controller?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, guarding it might think dies at some point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the z-way of water. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just so cool to watch But there is we always wanted there to be more focus on open hardware that wasn't tied to clouds and things like that and I'll speak personally there was a point in time where I really wondered that we got z-way.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got z-be, but it feels very tinkerer-y [SPEAKER_01]: And here we are, the voice of home assistant, the community, kind of raging against the cloud, but is it really going to make a difference? [SPEAKER_01]: So cool to see organizations that are not, not only trying the way, but they're doubling down on these local devices. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they're having a lot of success.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's just, it warms my heart, because that part of the vision was always something we wanted and I worried, you know, which way were the winds going to take us? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I think like a lot of companies chase this like whole cloud locked in app for so you're either it's cheap to run or, you know, they feel as though, oh, we've got all this, you know, all these users using our app and, you know, we can market that they'll be a selling point for us.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then, you know, a few years down the track, there was actually a costless money to maintain this cloud. [SPEAKER_02]: It has outages, we've got frustrated customers, there's a lot of, you know, support that we have to do. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's just kill the cloud, but then they kill, you know, half of the product features that the customers originally signed up for. [SPEAKER_04]: But some of them also just don't care, though it's a bandit.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, a bandit is a thing, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know we watch the news all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the thing in our house, so we're watching currently, my wife as many spouses and partners are is wonderfully taller into my home automation. [SPEAKER_01]: But I think over years has come to really feel the benefits of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things we're talking about, and I feel for the people of these organizations, we're watching the news stories that talk about, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, mass layoffs looming in the Alexa division of the home division, you know, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So, pressure on anybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: But thank goodness, a certain organization that we happen to love is talking about voice assistance and doing really powerful things there because there may come a moment in time where we need to shift on mass because we're forced to.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I [SPEAKER_01]: grateful for the zoos in the homeless system, you know, communities and others who are willing to say, this isn't just a good idea to have locally controllable stuff where we're going to we're going to put our foot in the ground and we're really going to, you know, do our part to help that become a reality. [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, somewhat related question. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we've talked a lot about Z-Wave and you clearly use Z-Wave a ton.

[SPEAKER_04]: How about that matter? [SPEAKER_04]: I know, again, emerging standard, that kind of thing. [SPEAKER_04]: What are your thoughts on that? [SPEAKER_04]: And I know matter 1.5, I think it is, just got released, which includes cameras and stuff like that. [SPEAKER_04]: What are your thoughts? [SPEAKER_04]: Where's your head out with that? [SPEAKER_04]: Is there value? [SPEAKER_04]: Is there not?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting, Ryan, and that the consumer in me can very easily get into this position of so many standards and like, well, I got Z-wave over here. [SPEAKER_01]: I got madder driven thing over here. [SPEAKER_01]: I've got still some Z-beast. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, what am I going to do here? [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also the developer part of my brain that just celebrates the fact that homocystint, it doesn't matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: It just surfaces these things. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a camera or it's a switch and it just works. [SPEAKER_01]: So I will admit there's parts of my brain that war there. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what's interesting for our home for a sophisticated is we are we have always struggled to bring cameras into home assistant. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's for no other reason than way, way back in the day we owned some arlo was Belkin the people behind our arlo. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were god bless and they were [SPEAKER_01]: the integration never worked terribly well. [SPEAKER_01]: We have U.C. [SPEAKER_01]: cameras now, which are, they're wonderful, they work really well, but they don't expose any sort of API that developers can talk to. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't know what it is. [SPEAKER_01]: I always kind of jellously looked at the people that had like ubiquity protect systems and they had these really robust camera setups.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what do I think about when I think about a new protocol in general, matter or otherwise,

[SPEAKER_01]: I, the dangerous for me to get locked that well, is this going to make me replace everything do I need to start ripping things out which is is fun but when you're in the season of life I'm in that's probably not safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I tend to think about it in the realm of is this going to unlock some sort of new capability that I was struggling to implement previously and you mention cameras that's one that's one that [SPEAKER_01]: I would like to, you know, be able to do OCR on things or, you know, kind of optical recognition and various subjects and do stuff with that information.

[SPEAKER_01]: I got to find a way to get a device and the home assistant that I can, you know, reasonably operate and utilize. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's one area where, yeah, you know, matter. [SPEAKER_01]: Matter evolving to broader standards that weren't just kind of tactical realizes, switches and sensors and stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm cautiously optimistic that the people who have put the specification of the protocol together are going to keep it nice and tight. [SPEAKER_01]: any one of us in technology, right? [SPEAKER_01]: There's always the talk about look, our protocols that's expanded for all these new things and what we behind the scenes know is that becomes harder and harder and harder to do well. [SPEAKER_01]: And so my thoughts are awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: I love the evolution of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope it doesn't balloon in the sort of this blob that people don't know what to do with. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: And that's my fear as well. [SPEAKER_04]: We've already seen companies out there that take, hey, great. [SPEAKER_04]: We've got this open standard. [SPEAKER_04]: But if you run it on our software, then you also get this extra thing. [SPEAKER_04]: Or yeah, it only works on matter with, [SPEAKER_04]: on Apple or whatever, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like, okay, so, and I've always said this, right, open standard, and we've opened the interpretation, right? [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, that's exactly my fear too, right, with, with, we are matter, good go is, you can do all of these things, you don't have to do all of these things, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas, sometimes the way I think is a lot more, [SPEAKER_04]: strictly enforced, which is like, hey, it has to be secure. [SPEAKER_04]: That's not an option, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, well, New York, New Jersey was my sister's right with this, whatever standards, and it has to have these facets. [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, if you don't have the sensor, you don't expose the sensor. [SPEAKER_04]: That's fine, but there's a minimum set of stuff that it has to adhere to, which, [SPEAKER_04]: I really like Inzyway, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, absolutely, and there's a comfort there, you know, and there's a sense too that, you know, anybody who's kind of built product for a living knows that when you integrate with things, if that thing doesn't work,

[SPEAKER_01]: You may have some subset of your users to intelligent enough for, that's not the right word, maybe savvy enough for aware enough to know, it's the thing, it's not the platform that's surfacing the thing, but you know what, to the typical user, if you know a device isn't working in home assistant, a typical user, there's a danger of that user go, a home assistant, it's it's it's problem. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust this and enough time goes on there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I, look, I don't think homelessness is in any danger of that, but we've seen enough products that integrate with other things, and when the thing doesn't work, it's the upstream component that really takes the punch on the chin, and that's my continued elbow for homosystems growth and evolution.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess recognition by the users, maybe if I can just take a moment and speak on behalf of all, people who develop for this platform, it is very difficult to have this number of integrations, work the way they do consistently and reliably and with each other. [SPEAKER_01]: There is untold hours and hours of work going into maintaining that. [SPEAKER_01]: I know, and I've seen in the community, there are people that are frustrated with different integrations that are working.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know right now that I play people frustrated with some of my integrations, I just don't have quite the time that I had in previous seasons to maintain certain elements.

[SPEAKER_01]: But part of that is, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, the power of this program also, I just hope there's always an honest reckoning with the fact that so much of what makes it powerful is built by people who've for the sweat off their brow decided they want to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: For it to continue, as long as home assistant is going to have a solid foundation that's made up of so much community effort.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, naturally, the community's got to pass that on to the next community and the next community and one thing that I think is traditionally been dangerous with open source. [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen this in my own world. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I come into a season where I've got a particular project. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry that feature your requests. [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't have any capacity right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am totally open to reviewing a pull request from you though. [SPEAKER_01]: and then silence. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't blame individuals. [SPEAKER_01]: I look, not everybody's a software developer. [SPEAKER_01]: Not everybody has an inclination. [SPEAKER_01]: They've got their own lives. [SPEAKER_01]: They're just trying to have things work.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for such a foundation to not have maybe continuity in the way that other foundations would, it does represent a little bit of a risk. [SPEAKER_01]: Every developer is seeing that meme floating around where here's this huge artifice of all modern infrastructure. [SPEAKER_01]: And then here's some guy in Nebraska holding up a really critical component.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's elements of this project that exist because individuals brought them into existence and for it's ongoing health. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, I think that the Nabukasa folks do a wonderful job at the ensuring that the core experience is so extendable, it's so understandable people can get involved.

[SPEAKER_01]: there's going to come a day where we're going to be, you know, we're going to pass this on to the next generation of people who want to build for this project and that's something that I hope the open home foundation and others involved here can really shepherd more and more people to be involved with the development of it so that it continues to be robust and healthy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's interesting because we are going to be seeing, you know, like typically, I'm just looking at our stats and you're the stats sort of, you know, where home assistant is running it's in homes where people own the home or, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: We want them to come in and be welcomed in the community, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, eventually they're going to have their own life stages, their life seasons, and we want to be able to let them come in and continue enhancing home assistant. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: It's critical. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that any one of us have the answer. [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is part of the open source challenge writ large. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what what history is shown is that Not, I'm not speaking homocysteine.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're maybe more bespoke specific projects. [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody does it for a while and then Life changes and it stagnates and then somebody comes along and forks it and changes it. [SPEAKER_01]: There will always be people who are interested to keep it moving forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just, this is such a special project, and it's such a special group of people, and the vehicles, again, I credit policy and his team for, for building the foundation and really kind of understanding this has to persist beyond anyone individual or corporate interest. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's going to come a point where we are going to, we will age and we're going to hit retirement and who knows what's going to happen as life progresses on decades from now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that I've got an answer to it, but I really hope there is some thought around what is the next generation of home assistant community developers, partnerships. [SPEAKER_01]: The only way that anything like this works is if the garden is [SPEAKER_01]: That would, that would just be such a cool moment, too, to think about, this project has already done something that so many open source projects failed to do in terms of persisting and growing and thriving.

[SPEAKER_01]: What if, what if somehow it could also be the model by which all other projects you're showing, Dang, that's how that thing persists 50 years, 100 years, or what have you. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Grand thing, but why not? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Now, while we're getting on a grand thing, I want to ask a one final question, if you could give your 2018 self one piece of advice about designing a maintainable smart home, what would it be?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I would have told that 2018 era and to think about home automation and the implementation of it in kind of two buckets. [SPEAKER_01]: Bucket one would have been just the things I want to try. [SPEAKER_01]: I have no clue if they provide value. [SPEAKER_01]: I have no sort of awareness of what utility they're gonna provide. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know if I want to tell anybody about them. [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to watch them evolve.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then the other bucket would have been like now these are the things like I didn't build these really nearly I didn't just have a wild hair and create 50 of them I watched in our home these three things happen and I know what automation fix those three things and that is now in the bucket of we have validated that. [SPEAKER_01]: I think my 2018 self very focused on my big team at work is running our product.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really trying to scratch my own itch isn't so I got boundless energy [SPEAKER_01]: I think my 2018 self was putting everything in that ladder bucket and I was, hey, honey, I got like 55 new automations and here's all this stuff that's happening and they're chaining together in weird ways and nothing happened, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: My house didn't blow up, but I think I wonder, I should say, if I could tell my 2018 self that, I think I would have, it would have, [SPEAKER_01]: released some of the pressure for me to have all these incredible automations doing incredible things and I could have segmented my brain a bit more into these are things I'm tinkering with and I'm okay if they never work out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm okay if I come up with some automation that sounds cool to me and nobody in my family gets it because that's in my tinker bucket and it's more of a mental exercise more than anything but um that's sort of where I feel now you know the [SPEAKER_01]: did we ever think about blowing up and starting from scratch?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, we never had, but the one thing I did do when the whole labeling and categorization functionality was added, I took the time to go through label things and categorize areas. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: I used that up to I wiped out probably 40 automations. [SPEAKER_01]: I took our way, took us down to 120 down to 55. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I couldn't tell ya. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't seem to be missing anything. [SPEAKER_01]: We blew away now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I could be right here at this point in my life right two inches in front of my face.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not seeing it, but I'm I'm a bit more of a believer that I destroyed things that were just there to be tinkered with and [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, I put a lot of pressure on myself to come up with the, the end all be all of automations for our life when I'm wondering if I should have segmented myself a bit more and here's my bucket just to tinker and have fun with and if it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's sort of like, he's your bread and butter.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is the staple stuff that will make your life easier. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, doesn't matter what season of life you're in, like, this is, you're walking to a room and a lot of chains on, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Like that there's an automation that would, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes this is the other stuff, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, oh, maybe you want to, or make your grocery list, or maybe you want to, you know, want to make the music playing this time, or maybe that's, maybe not necessary, it's fun, but it's not necessary, all right?

[SPEAKER_04]: That's right. [SPEAKER_04]: And also if it breaks, it's not super disruptive. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, bingo. [SPEAKER_01]: I can feel that, you know, I'm on the road traveling. [SPEAKER_01]: And I mentioned this earlier, if bedtime is racked because the security system is doing some funny, and I'm on the work like that, so you're right right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's, [SPEAKER_01]: There's an element too of, you know, and maybe I'm telling myself, I'm really grateful I have prox, macaroni, because I could just spin up a VM and try things. [SPEAKER_01]: But there is something we would do this in IT, right? [SPEAKER_01]: We would not go into production systems and just tinker with stuff just for fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you know what, I... [SPEAKER_01]: If I talked to 2018er and I think I tell him, you're not going to know this now because what you're working with is a builders platform. [SPEAKER_01]: It's designed to be tinkered with and what it is evolved to now as you can still tinker with it endlessly. [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a maturity and an elegance to it that you will find the value into your point.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you segregate here, the things that are rock solid, we know they're going to work. [SPEAKER_01]: And then here are the things that you're just playing with. [SPEAKER_01]: And whether you find value or not, there's fun in the playing. [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. [SPEAKER_02]: Aaron, thank you so much for coming back and talking to us. [SPEAKER_02]: This has been fantastic. [SPEAKER_02]: Always good to see how people's journey has evolved.

[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for the work on home. [SPEAKER_02]: This isn't your continuing to do. [SPEAKER_02]: I always enjoy seeing a name pop up on my GitHub feed. [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for that. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you guys. [SPEAKER_01]: Really great to be with you again. [SPEAKER_01]: To just be a part of this project with you in our own ways. [SPEAKER_01]: What an honor it is. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm great to be with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: if you want to share your home system journey or come on as a guest, reach out to us at feedback at haspodcast.io, that's HASSpodcast.io [SPEAKER_03]: For links to topics we discussed today, check out our show notes on haspodcast.io.