A Violent Yet Flammable World (w/ Kristaps Andrejsons & Daniele Bolelli)

no matter what my podcast schedule is. So in light of the recent assassination of political pundit Charlie Kirk and growing discussion about the rise of political violence, I thought it would be necessary to have a bit of a breakdown of what political violence is, what its deeper meaning is, and what maybe Americans, my fellow Americans, don't fully appreciate about it, and there really isn't anything good about political violence. I think that's kind of a spoiler alert for this

conversation that you're about to hear. But I don't think it could have been made clearer by anybody other than two of my best pals in the podcasting world, that is Christops and Threeson's of the Eastern Border Podcast and Danielleblelly of History on Fire, both of whom have talked

about this. Danielle very recently. He couldn't have timed his most recent episode of History on Fire better, but also Chris stops in a lot of his you know, coverage of the war in Ukraine and everything giving him particular insight too, political violence in a lot of ways too. So anyway, I'm showing everything that normally comes before these episodes because I want to get this out as soon

as possible. I really appreciate everybody who supports the show and Patreon sub stack everywhere, so please consider going there to support this show. History Impossible dot subsec dot com and Patreon dot com slash history Impossible. If you like what's done over here. Now I'll shut up, I will get us going and please enjoy. As dark as this topic is, this conversation I had with Daniellebalelli and Kristeps and reasons.

you know, don't have to get into now. Because I want to talk to Chris tops about Russian Christianity sometime in the near future, because that seems really like a good rabbit hole go run. Yeah, I know, I already just I just did it doing.

sort of overall context of what is going on. I have a couple of quotes I want to read to you guys, and then I'll just let you respond to those, and you know, just you know, give your perspectives on everything that's happened with particularly with the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which I believe has been I don't know, almost a week. I actually can't I don't even and yeah it's been over a week now, it's been about a week. But anyway, I want to give you get your guys immediate reactions,

but also give you a couple of quotes. And the first one comes from, of all people, our friend Leon Trotsky. And I just got done reading his book Revolution Betrayed, and actually it was for school, and there was a line in it that just struck me that I just want to read out loud. Here. Individual terror is a weapon of impatient or despairing individuals, belonging most frequently to

the younger generation. But as was the case in Czaras times, political murders are unmistakable symptoms of a stormy atmosphere and foretell the beginning of an open political crisis. So that's heavy, obviously, And yeah, I think we want to like put a pin in that one. And then I want to read this summary that was written by the writer Catherine Brodsky on her sub stack Random Minds that I think just really helps give us a bigger context of what's been

going on. So what she wrote was the following President Trump's ear was grazed by a bullet as he narrowly escaped with his life at a rally. He was targeted again soon after. United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was assassinated, but Luigi Mangioni arrested for his murder. A gunman killed two Embassy of Israel's staff members who were leaving a Young Diplomat reception at the Jewish Museum in Washington, DC. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's mansion was broken into and set

on fire. Tesla vehicles have been torched, and bullets as well as molotov cocktails were aimed at the company's showrooms. Two Minnesota state lawmakers were shot in their homes. Side note, that happened the day before I went back to Minnesota this past summer, so that was interesting. Continuing in March, a fire was set to the entryway of the New Mexico Republican Party headquarters. BD Pellots and gunshots were fired at the front door and window of the Democratic National

Committee office in Arizona on three separate occasions. Last fall, Anti Pelosi's husband Paul, was bludgeoned with a hammer in his home. His attacker admitted he had planned to hold the speaker hostage to quote end government corruption unquote. Individuals, including some extremist groups, stormed the US capital protest to

twenty twenty presidential election results. Eric Komer, an executive at Dominion Voting Systems, was forced into hiding after his home address was published and a million dollar bounty was put on his head. And now the successful assassination of political commentator Charlie Kirk. And then what he sort of concludes is this is not just a list of isolated incidents.

And I am inclined to agree with that. And she didn't even include everything that I would have included on that list, which included the was about three months of rioting in twenty twenty, which I think was political but also had to do with COVID, so it's a little more complicated. But then you had other more explicitly political events like the attempted an aborted assassination of Supreme Court

Justice Brett Kavanaugh, and a number of other things. So I think the picture is pretty clear, especially when you think about that quote from Trotsky and what Catherine said at the end there, which is these are not isolated incidents. We're living in a time of it seems to be political violence in the United States at a level that we just have not seen, at least in my lifetime. And yeah, I mean, I actually don't even think it was in you know, your lifetime, Danielle, and you're the

elderly man here. So but yeah, we we have a very serious time in this country, and I think that getting your guys' perspective is really important. But I do want to let you respond to everything I just gave you there, because that was a lot.

rely on you. You know, this is the point where, especially here in the Baltics, we feel threatened every day and then you know, you look at the United States to be sort of to take on this role of actually you know, making things in order to as a we used to look at you as a beacon of hope in a way of stability that you guys got it made and everything. And now now when I when I read my news and it's like, oh, lookie, we're living in a dangerous deditory. And then I switch over

to foty news and I'm like, again, something weird happening. Yeah, it doesn't. It's really it's really lowers at least here, it lowers the the idea of it really lowers the image of the United States in a way in the sense that over here, a lot of people here, not not just here laughing, but in Europe in general since

over here. And also but the person who if something happens in the United States, I'm the one that gets all the questions because I'm weirdly enough, they know, not many people have have ways to speak with American people, and they're asking me, what's what's going on? Because people are just genuinely scared. And this is because of what's happening across, you know, on the other side of the planet.

And the more this happens, the less we feel like the less we feel like this this whole global system is working because you know, EU is very good at expressing deep concern and as much as you know, as much as people might might not like it, you guys are the ones who kick in the door and get stuff done right and right now it seems that you can't really get stuff done instead of your own place. So we're looking with with a lot of distress going on.

We don't like people here, don't understand the intricacies of of your internal politics and why it's happening. But everyone here at least has the sense that what I want to give you this Dutipian perspective of today, the fact that something's broken in there. Like you you you, it seems it feels like you've got you've always had at

least over here. Whenever the United States have had some issues, it has always been this idea that, oh, you have institutions, you have institutions, do you know what you know was going on?

know what you're doing. You like you're going to selve this self through the power of institutions, through the power off here democracy, all this, all this stuff, and right now that that's feeling is imrolling here and it doesn't And and to be to be honest, well that's that's what that gives me personally all as well, and a lot of people around in my idea, a lot of dreads, because you know, we've used to, we've actually used to the United States being the way that you portray yourselves

as in your pr segments. So that's how I want to want to put it.

who are born here are multiple generations back Americans tend to take for granted a lot of the time. Every immigrant I've ever met is always far more positive on the American project and the American future and everything I think than people who actually live here. But I'm want to let you respond to all that too.

of shit. You know, that's the trade, that's part of the deal I was. You know, Italy was atrocios for a lot of reasons.

You have Ruby Ridge, then you have Waco, then you have the Oklahoma City bombing, and I actually forgot the first World Trade Center bombing. I mean, these things were I'm very intense.

the Cymbinese Liberation Army. And then you go back even further, you have you know, the eighteen seventies to the nineteen hundred's with all the you know, bombings and assassinations that happened. Then I think we had am I getting this right? I think we fact, we had like two assassinations of presidents and multiple attempts during that time. And then if you really want to get heavy, we had the Civil

War and everything led up to that. So political violence is kind of a normal thing in a US history, but in that like I said, it doesn't feel different. But with this particular time, with the Charlie Kirk assassination, it does feel like a lot of people believe and I can't help but feel it myself to a certain

degree that a different line has been crossed. But I guess I don't want to overstate things, so I just have to ask, from your guys' perspective, to what extent do you think that or maybe even just feel that we in the United States, and maybe even in the Western world more broadly, are in a new era of political violence. Christops, you and I talked about this a fair bit, and I think for you it's obvious that you know, it's you know, things have escalated a lot,

especially in your neck of the woods. But I'm trying to think about this more broadly, so I'm going to let you guys sort of ruminate on that a bit, like what to a new era?

But anyway, I want to let you guys sort of get I want to get your perspective on what you think about this potentially new era of political violence or maybe an idea that it's not a new era, maybe it's just more of the same. I just want to get your guys' perspective on that.

But I feel like this isn't this isn't much so much of a new era as of people to people have just you know, remembering the good old, good old, forgotten things from the past, so to speak, in the sense that if previously, previously, we previously we had a lot of political violence all over the place in Europe, in everywhere basically, and currently what we're seeing now is just well, there there were a bunch of good times where people were not solving their problems with such political violence.

But right now, you know, we've we've been through a lot of stress stressed, stressful period of events COVID and everything, and now well the memories are just coming back and people are just remembering how this is going. For example, like we also didn't have a lot of that stuff happening here but recently, because it's a diversity. If you remember the revolution of nineteen oh five that happened in Russia, well the bloodiest parts of that happened here in Latvia.

And after that, for example, you got Peter the Painted in London doing shootings there, almost shot Winston Churchill. By the way. Interestingly enough, another person that was important for this fact was Edward Leitzkalnen, the guy who built Coral Castle in Florida. He was also a part of those things.

He shot a baron that he emigrated there. It's just that political violence to such a scale in the United States, I feel well, it's always happened in the waves, and I think we're you know, the very cliche statement that history does not repeat itself, but it's sometimes rhymes. Well right now when in the rhymey period, I just I feel like it it's because the violence hasn't gone anywhere.

It's always been there, just under the hood and just you know, brewing up and now with all the stresses happening, well the people people, you know, when people start to feel very desperate about their lives and everything, and then they see this is some sort of solution, as I presume, that's how I feel about it, certainly.

the years of Lead affair BIX. I want people to listen to your episode, but I want to give people an idea of what we're talking about, because, as you said, a lot of people in the US know about that. But anyway, as you.

I mean in many ways, and again i'll give you the one minute version. A lot of the problem is at the end of World War two, people think that's the end of fascism. It's not. The chairman of the Italian Communist Party commits an atrocious compromise with fascism where essentially they do an amnesty for any war or any crime committed during the war, both by partisans and fascists.

This will allow the fascists not only to just go back to their own lives, but also to infiltrate the state, in the police forces, in the army, in secret services, with politicians and so on. So this leads to the FED by the late sixties. They don't like the direction where society is going. They see it going progressively more

toward what they consider leftist positions. So some people start this campaign of terror, planting bombs, doing all sort of in the screminate terror activities to create a climate of fear throughout Italy with the hope that then the population in a panic will turn to some fascist strong men to take over and bring fascism back. Now that's not

going to work. However, the climate of tension that they are trying to push will continue for a long time, will lead to the exact opposite reaction, which will be leftist groups start harming themselves and some of them take for arm struggle type of attitude. Now the main difference between groups like the Red Brigades and the fascist terrorists now they're all terrorists. Let's be clear. Red brigades tend to be more targeted assassination. So a politician, a judge,

a journalist or whatever, not that that's good. Obviously, it's not, but it is a little different from planting a bomb in the middle of a train station killing a hundred people, you know, So that was the But regardless of Io Spini, there was a ton of violence, you know, whether targeted or not, the violence was pretty insane.

I'm sure the right was too. In many ways, there was you know, the right was somebody with some mildly socially conservative views and it was a fascist terrorist bombing train station. Not the same thing, clearly, but they were all labeled as the right, much as the left was the Red Brigades and some students or workers protesting for slightly better conditions, you know, not the same.

I remember like when I was a child, finding motorcycle helmet and the giant ranch in the house and there I was like, hey, you guys, don't ride motorcycles, and my dad was like, hey, politics, you know, because it's like, because if you are active in politics, if you went to any kind of demonstration, you probably went with a motorcycle helmet, because either the police or the fascist will try to crack your skulls, and you had your own tolls to beat them up. That was just how it was.

That was part of the deal. And then the violence, as I mentioned, it got so insane that I mean, in Milan, like close to where I live, like a bank blew up in nineteen sixty nine, killing seventeen people. In Bologna, the train station blew up the day, within twenty four hours from the time when my mom took a train from Bologna to Milan. The very next day

the train station blew up, killing eighty eight people. I mean, it was just And then eventually the years of lead come to an end in the mid eighties, when everybody realized nobody's gonna get what they want. The fascists are not gonna get, the return to a fascist dictatorship, the Red Brigades are gonna go, are not gonna get a communist revolution is just everybody's tired. Nothing has been accomplished

other than killing a zillion people. And oddly enough, what it leads to though, is the fact that really, I mean, of course is good when they stop killing each other, and not just each other but also random civilians. But also it's not in the sense that it coincided with a period of tremendous disillusionment and cynicism. So what I remember, like, whereas my childhood was spent with the years of Lead,

right after was just arrowing everywhere. People just strang out on the street, laying on the Florida you would have to kind of crawl over to get to somebody's house. And that was and that was part of it too. So you know, that sounds a.

because you know, obviously want to talk. Yeah we can talk about it, but yeah, in the case of like what's going on now, I mean, again, we don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I mean I'll just ask bluntly, Danielle, how similar are things now to the years of lead or are we not quite there yet? In the United States? Would you say, I.

the blood of their fellow citizens. I think that's being something about where we're at a society. And I granted, most of these people are talkers, and thankfully, thankfully there are people who just cheat and don't do it. But among you know, five million people who talk that way, all you need is twenty thousand to act on it, and that.

they only had about six hundred active members. You don't need that many people to cause extreme I mean Timothy McVeigh, he technically had one accomplice with I think was Terry Nichols, but he killed how many hundred people including a day care full of children? Just one guy?

And this lecture cycle is what is political philosophy. And here he writes about how the teal Titians happens, how everything becomes politicized and then it turns political violence. From that comes to some sort of revolution or a lauious leader. He literally really describes this process. And right now this is the first time. You know, when I was reading this back then, back when I was in college, I thought, oh wow, this this reminds me. This sort of reminds

me how things are going in the United States. Well, now I'm one and more convinced that death this, this this person was very right. If you if you can find some of his works in English, I would highly recommend he must be translated. He's he used to read lectures in Saint Petersburg, and he writes, he writes about the you know, he writes to the very specific tone,

but post history and everything as well. He sort of mocks this idea, but he basically in this book here describes this whole process on how everything starts when as in his example, which is one of my favorites, is when even buying the correct brand of sausage becomes politics. Then even while then that is the first step on all of the when everything is politics, then of course even the most extreme things also become politics. In this

case violence, This is how you normalize it. It's is the in the in this theory, which I personally agree with, you sort of you get to this violence by basically making everything political, because then if everything is political, then

of course people have more radical, radical opinions. And if this radicalization goes reaches its its natural point there, then of course why then of course it just gets into violence datatudy, because what else are you going to do if if if you can get yelled at and and like like he says here buying a sausage, well here in the start he wrote in the nineties, and so

it posts of it. If even that becomes political, if where you go and eat becomes political, then you feel like you're you're struggling to with even the most basic ideas. Then then violence also becomes a political norm because politics seeps into your everyday life and in your everyday struggles, especially if you're a young adult in your twenties. Well, how do you solve most of your problems, do you? Well? Young male Young males are prone to well not not.

They're not very very much known for being the most most people who solve most of their issues by just talking it out, you know, and so so in a way, it's in a way I see what's happening there, and especially with what Danielli said here, which is why I asked my friend just to bring this book from from my bookshelf. The fact that yes, it's it's tragic, and it's it's you shouldn't see it as something abnormal. In fact, this is a very normal, very rational result of what's

been going on in the United States politics. It's not it's it didn't PLoP out of nowhere. It is there for a reason. It was something that seems to me like you've been marching towards too, like you this this is this is just the natural end product of things. If that's because this is this is how like I'm sorry for maybe being sort of a rush here. But

what else did you guys expect? I mean, this is another example that he uses here, by the way, which is which is gonna which Danielle is gonna like he compares this to the video, like to the vide early times when when Roman Republic became empire like Gragai brothers and all that stuff. That's also their violence becomes normalized.

probably the biggest achievement in astronomy probably ever. And then the story was about the guy who headed the team wearing a shirt that had cartoon babes on it, like hot babes on his shirt, and that became the story. And I was thinking, and it was that people are getting mad at him for having a sexist shirt or something. Well, and what I'm saying is that, like it was one of those moments where I was like, wait a minute,

what are we doing here? We just did something incredible, Like this team of people did something incredible, and all people want to talk about is the shirt the guy

wore to announce the accomplishment. It just anyway, My point being is that, as you said, Chris Stops, this has been going on for a while and it's kind of the natural culmination of all that of making everything political and whatnot, there is a missing ingredient that I wanted to bring up though that I think you both can comment on, which is the role of the state in all of this, Because I talked about the corrupt Italian

police throwing people out of windows. I mean, that's a part of the story of the years of lead that Danielle talks about in this show. We don't have to necessarily get into the details of that because people should go listen to the episode and it has a lot of really it has weirdness in it, but it's pretty

obvious what happened. But my point is is that the role of the state plays and their efforts to put down politically violent individuals and groups especially there can be problems when targeting individuals, obviously, like getting the wrong person, but the real problems, at least as I'm seeing it, and I think we're already seeing this with this classification of Antifa as a terrorist group when they're not even

a group. They're a decentralized network I guess, of people with sympathies that might not even do anything except share memes. I mean, it just it. I don't know how you would define Antifa as a group, just that.

and valid. Is a sort of problem solution there. I think, I think that would be a point because this is literally one of these arguments which we recently had with with students about pro forward and against death penalty. And this is the EU's point that statistics data shows that if the government says that it's okay to kill someone, then if the government doesn't, then you know, you are more likely to have that normalized. As a little tiny thing here from.

as you're saying, Chris stops. And then if you start doing that where people are getting killed or hurt or arrested unjustly simply because they have an association, however tangential to a group or to a person or whatever, that's just going to incentivize people to become more violent as an active self defense, especially in a country like the

United States that really prides itself on self defense. Uh So, I guess I just wanted to get your guys' thoughts on that, like the role of the state basically in all this, and to what extent can the state do anything to put a lid on the violence without allowing authoritarian concept creep to kick in, which is already kicking in the United States. I'm not disputing that, but I'm just saying, I guess possible.

and they were politicians tied to them. So there was one segment of the state more or less actively participating in the terrors in order to take over the rest of the state. So it wasn't like the state was this neutral arbiter of what was going on. And honestly, I think, and again you know, I grew up with that stuff. So for me, I've always tried to stay as clear as humanly possible from conspiracy theory thinking, because of often it becomes like a lazy excuse not to

look at evidence correctly. However, especially now as I'm looking at the way things I'm developing, my conspiracy brain is kicking into high gear. And there's more or less nothing that I'm seeing in the news that I'm not going, Wait,

that doesn't make sense. Who's benefiting from this, Whether we're talking about the Kirk assassination, whether we talk about the Trump shooting, whether we talk about a lot of things now, I don't know, of course I'm not I don't know that those are but there's a lot of things that don't seem to adapt. And I think think is because I grew up with this, with the fact that it was normal for the state set up false flag all the time, for the state to be involved in like

the dirtiest possible things. And by the way, the state, not just the Italian state, because the CIA was very much behind a lot of what was going on in Italy at the time. So to me, I'm like, it's almost a given that what we are seeing on TV is not real, that there's something that's going on underneath the surface. Now what that is, I don't know. And also the ear is the part that gets tricky people who fall into the conspiracy theory rabbit all they start

thinking everything is conspiracy. It's like, no, that's the part that's messy about it, that it's a mix of things, because you're gonna get the crazy, stupid guy who does something that's perfect for one segment of the political spectrum, and he was not planted at all, and he acted independently.

And then there's the one who's actually tied. And so sometimes you can, you know, because where stupid and devil meets, it's not always easy to say what is planned evil and what is just random guy stupid.

far longer than COVID. I mean, it goes back way further than that, and that has that's a whole other conversation. The point being is that the incentive to trust institutional claims is at an all time low, clearly, and I think that when that happens, it invites conspiratorial thinking and makes conspiracy seem a little more reasonable for a lot of people. So I don't blame people for going down that path. I I do always think that there is while it's important to always ask who benefits, there is

something called the qui bono fallacy. I mean, it's sometimes like when some as you said, Danielle, somebody benefits, well, benefiting is opportunistic in a lot of cases. But yeah, to that, to that point, yeah, I think that the the role of the state in cracking down or the role of the state in collaborating, that's another I didn't make that clear because as you said, Danielly, that that was a bit a major thing, and you just introduced

the other aspect of foreign medaling. I didn't even want that's a whole other.

the non state energies. You always think about these, you knows groups and everything which also are there, but I mean Google and what they show around also play a big role, which is how I explain a lot of things here to a bunch of people. You know, Well, recently I have I've had to explain why, you know what a lot of media we people from the Baltics in general and Eastern we get to call racists a lot.

But then I have to explain, well, look, I have a grandma, like random grandma who lives in the countryside and whose only information about black people comes from comes from gangs, thrip videos in Hollywood movies. What what? What do you think her her view on life is and that that is a thing that really impacts people thinking, because you know, if they don't see this in everyday life. So how we've I I dread to sound like an old man, but yeah, you know, it's sort of sort

of sort of makes sense. And I recently watched that recently spoke with with Robert you know, the man that that was on my episode with you History Impossible, and he said that he pulled he pulled out of phrase. I think he saw it online somewhere. But basically Fox News has done with the older generation, what they were, what they what they had thought the video games would do to us. Basically, yeah, it's.

instead of blaming. You know, there is no one simple This is not a simple problem. But not there is no simple solutions. Simple solutions is what brings kind of amatic leaders to power, and then you know this stuff happens.

to solutions. Now, one thing earlier, when we're talking about anything from the Gray Brothers forward, Yeah, there is a human universal aspect which is when as society is consistently they're refusing to find solutions because they go against the power structure and people who hold the reins of power, or because the solutions are massy. I mean, right now,

it's no wonder that people are desperate. We're facing so many different crises and no one has a foggust idea of how to deal with it, from environmental issues to ais going to change radically our entire life and economy, to you know, you can go down the lead and there are probably thirty issues that are insedly difficult. So it's so much easier to just find escapegoat and rather than thinking the life sucks because we can figure out

how to deal with major challenges. It's all because of the dirty communist or the gay or the Conservatives or something. If only those guys were in tears, we could have a great life. And it's like, yeah, that's just scapegoating one oh one because you are feel powerless, you don't know what the hell to do about it. Your life is falling into pieces. So I mean the fact that, like right now, the rate of Americans who don't have a single friend has grown fivefold in the span of

like not even twenty years. Wait what, yeah, this is a yeah twenty years. There was a statistic that said about three percent of American men reported having zero friends in twenty twenty one, so it's already a few years back, and the percentages hi are now. In twenty twenty one,

it was fifteen percent having zero friends. Now those are the people who say they have zero friends, not even the ones who say, oh, I have one or two friends, but we hardly ever see each other, which is a Loneliness is an epidemic right now in the Western world, especially US, and it's just so of course, half of the country's one product and of people have issues because we deal with a society that's falling two pieces at the most basic level, at the people being alone with

a screen all day kind of level, and those are things that there are no easy quick just do this type of solution, because it's our whole society has been built to lead into this place.

and family. I always thought that, like, well, if it's family there's probably other dynamics going on, and that's why you're cutting family off, and that you just found an excuse.

That's usually what happens. But when it comes to friends splitting apart because of political differences, I just don't I don't buy that as like a reasonable reason to not talk to people, obviously up until a point, because if you have a friend who's a Holocaust denier, that's really all they're going to be talking about, and that's not fun to be around. If you have a friend who's a flat earther, that's I mean, that's really what it is.

Is that if if the friend becomes a conspiracy theorist, that usually is the reason why you don't want to hang out with them, is because they don't have much else to talk about. But but yeah, like that, that that element of self isolation, I think is that is a major contributor to this loneliness as well as obviously, uh you know, technological aspects of it. I mean, I don't know if numbers have changed over the years, but online dating always struck me as a very strange thing.

And now granted I'm biased because I you know, my partner of almost sixteen years and I met in real life. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't have used online dating had I been single a couple of years later when it really started to take off. But it just it strikes me as like very odd when you put like, what when you digitize romance or digitize friendship?

we're too lazy, that we don't work hard enough. Yeah we have vacations, Yeah we take that stuff that people make people have memes about, you know, Oh no, those French people, they're just you know, as an example that are used often that they just won't work in August and they won't pick up your calls after six pm. You know what, that's that's actually a good thing. That's

a very that is how you should be get. That's the time which you literally dedicate to spell with your friends and family, which is well, as we can all see, extremely actually important because oh well I actually didn't know about this slowliness, but I thought it was like something happening related to Q one on and insults of that stuff. But I mean, it is, it is, but it's just like it It made me feel very kind of kind of scared in this sense. But you know, it sounds

it sounds silly. But but again, another number that is often thrown is about the level of life in general. And you again, I can't speak about all of it, but yeah, we make less and salary, but then again we have like reasonable health care. We we spend we also have to spend less and then we you know, we really really value the time that we spend with our families and having hobbies important and people you know, all over like my my area, there's a hunting club, there's

a there's a fishing club. People like in my little village. There's even the line dancing club opening up soon. I don't know why, but people really seem to enjoy this stuff. And I was gonna say it doesn't.

But and I mean that more proverbially in the sense that I think people need to find more things to connect with to to really give them meaning. Because I think the deepest problem with political violence in the United States, at least lately actually has more to do with nihilism than with any political valence. Like, yes, this guy who, Tyler Robinson, I shouldn't I don't want to say his name,

but I don't want to be vague. Tyler Robinson. He is from all the pieces of evidence out there, codes left, quote unquote as far as political valence goes, but I don't think that really matters. We as far as I know, we don't even know political valence with the guy who tried to take a shot at Trump. And there's obviously left and right motivations that go on with some of these acts of violence that have been going on over the years, but that doesn't really matter as much as

I think a lack of meaning. And there's a quote that I want to read to you guys, and then it's the last quote I'll read, I swear. And I actually shared this on Facebook, so you guys might have seen it, but it's from who I like to jokingly call my favorite Marxist. Freddy Debor wrote about this in a really really powerful essay talking about political violence right now, But it just really struck me, and I want to get your guys' thoughts on this more broadly, but here's

what he wrote. This is in fact my overarching argument that where we are trained to see public violence as the outcome of ideology, those anarchist assassinations nine to eleven Oklahoma City andras Brevik Yukio Mishima in the twenty first century, a certain potent strain of political violence is not the put of ideology, but rather an attempt to will ideology into being through violence itself, to create meaning in a

culture steeped and digital meaninglessness by the most destructive means available. The twenty first century school shooter, for example, does not murder children in an effort to pursue some teleological purpose. The twenty first century school shooter exists in a state of deep purposelessness, and at some level and to some degree,

seeks to will meaning into being through their actions. This is part of why so many of them engage in acts of abstruse symbolism to wrap their politically incoherent violence in layers of iconography. They are engaged in cargo cult meaning making, the pursuit of a pseudo religion. The tail wags the dog. Acts we have grown to see as expressions of meaning are in fact childish attempts to will

meaning into being through violence. So yeah, I think that that says it all, and I am inclined to agree with that being really the core motivation for what does I think we seem to agree that there is a rise in political violence right now. It's kind of hard to disagree about it. But I think that that is like the core motive that we're dealing with here, and maybe that's always been the core motive of political violence,

but I don't get that sense necessarily. I think that a lot of the time there's an objective, it usually does have like ideological valence that's very deliberate, especially when it's something you know that leads to a revolution. But in this particular case, it doesn't feel like revolutionary violence is taking place right now. It feels like nihilistic violence, destructive violence. So I'll let you guys respond to all that.

It ties into what we've been talking about, so I'll just let us go here.

is going. Highly that I commended that that is basically a fantasy book series about what would happen if Catholic Church would be objectively true, like objectively true in every aspect except you know, in case Catholicism is a very much polly like a polytheistic thing. But if you do magic once you are determined to go. It's a long study, very good book, but very depressing. The stuff that I like here, but in general all this is well the

meaning stuff. Yeah, I mean, do you guys know I was very lucky and I got like for super super cheap, me and my wife. We just got a house next to the Russian border, twenty twenty kilometers from Russian border

twenty two kilometers. It's a very good deal like then, And a lot of people here like they don't they don't really understand why do I want to move to this middle of nowhere extreme Deeplathyan countryside right but there, you know, I start every morning by just taking a round the walking around my house and checking on all the animals. I have a bunch of a bunch of like I have wizards and deer and and all sorts of these little creatures. They leave their things and there

over there. It doesn't feel like civilization has pushed out all the animals over there. It feels like my house like has wooden walls, and right now the sap is coming out of them because they're like very fresh, So it feels like the house is alive. And those little things give me, give me the meaning thing. And I thought, you know, people were looking at me as if, as if as I was a weirdo. But I understand that, you know, that gives me peace, and that gives me

some meaning. I have to have a house to take care of. And when you look at this house, well for me it's a physical house now, but for everyone we have to have this mental house in order as well. That's what philosophy does. It's it's an introspection little thing. It's not about you being angry at someone. It's about

getting your own headspace and order. And in a lot of cases, for example, I hear I would have to blame people like Andrew Tage and other people who claim that they're giving this meaning to new people, and they dare to use the philosophy that I like a lot of Stoicism and the proper Sooicism of Seneca and Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus and the real one. And then they sort of give these easy answers and they give this stuff like this search for a meeting has been corrupted

in a way. They are a lot of people are being told to search for a meeting in the wrong ways. And when someone like me, for example, when I did this thing with the house in the middle of nowhere, but this was a really good price though, but it's fought away. You know, people were confused about why would I do this. I'm far away from all the civilization everything. But that is this is this is this societal what's become the norm. Here is the fact that you must

round this rat race. You must like that really said, sit in this cubicle. You must have no friends, you will owe nothing and love it right. That is stupid, and and again give away your friends stuff. This search for meeting is very mentioned, a very deep thing, and I feel like people in their flanning is like my friend Robert here he also spoke about this, that the younger generation have much larger issues with this than we do,

and that we should. I don't know. This is why we're again, we're doing a YouTube channel with Robert to maybe inject some actual meaning into these into twenty year old to twenty year olds because I don't feel as I don't feel as old to be completely separate from this. But the search for meaning, you know, when when you leave I understood, I understood with this. How is the fact that you won't be able to find any meaning in the things that you can buy from what the

corporations can give you. You have to find meaning yourself. And that's a lot of work that's not fast food, that's cooking your meal on your own, that takes effort, and we don't like effort these days. This is this is it's really it really means, you know, it's doing hard work, but when no one pays you and you

can't take a vacation either. It's a process, not something that you're given And I feel like all these and I mentioned mega corporations, the whole impact that mega corporations and this, this this over the top consumers culture has given us is the fact that right now we see this, we have learned to see this as some sort of a failure in life if you don't do this rat race.

But I think I think we would have to admit that maybe we've gone wrong somewhere and maybe, you know, maybe taking a longer vacation, spending your time and you know, touching the grass is something that really needs to be done. And this it was very cliche. This sounds very stupid, except if I wouldn't be going through my own stress

with this exact method, that wouldn't help. Hey, I wouldn't be here talking to you guys because I was really stressed out from all of my work and that's related to the war that had gotten into my own headspace. And now I'm being organized and I have other problems to think about, very real, actual problems. What was this, hi? They goes? Does right? Do you have to touch into the reality?

offering you courses in that respect of finding meaning. Whether it's through and Andrew Tates case pimping, I guess, I don't know, but even people who might have taken what started out as a good idea and then kind of turned it into something else, like Jordan Peterson. I mean, I'm not trying to cast shade on him necessarily, because I do know that his books, at least his first book,

has helped a lot of people. But I'm just making the point that I think when you run a business, especially via the Internet, which is all about capturing attention, what you're actually doing is acting as a parasite. Oh one thing though, when that sucks a way that that doesn't provide meaning, it just makes things worse.

And I think that's the difference from the past, And this is the difference why it's harder to get out of this right now, because the thing that there have been tremendously difficult problems to solve when people decided to solve them by scapegoating instead of addressing these impossible problems has always been around whether there is one side or the other, or the witchess or whatever, there was always something that you could blame it on to avoid looking

at the actual issues. I think the problem that we have right now is the fact that before as much as traditional media was terrible for a variety of reasons. At least there were some minimum standards that you are supposed to keep. And yeah you are shady, and yeah you push propagan and yeah or whatever, but you have to at least keep up appearances. Now where anybody can build a following online by just becoming a political pundit, and if you play the algorithms correctly, you can get

a humongous following. Now the problem is that where is the audience sculpture? Audience sculpture Unfortunately, as we understand, the way the algorithms are set up are built or anger, outrage, and just in general like fanning the flames of the political So the idea that people now hate each other online and they are there cheering for civil war is not strange. Is as crystal to put it, what did you expect? It's like a direct consequence of what it was very clearly where it was going to go. Now

it is where the problems come. See, And that's, by the way, where I think the cur assassination is a tricky one in the sense that what happens now is that so far that process has largely been all benefit and no problem for the people engaging in it. You know, be as controversial as you could possibly be, because you'll get a ton of audience, you will make a ton

of money. Great, now we realize that there are bad consequences in the sense that there are people who will flip out because they don't like some controversial message they are pushing and will because society is collapsing around them. Mental health is in the toilet, and every single decide to blow your brains out. So that's gonna you know, there's still a high incentive to push controversy and outrage

and fan in the flames. But now I think it's the first time that we go like, oh damn, there may be a price to pay that in the hands of some insane person there. People will not just talk sheet online. People will actually act on it, which is the same thing why people now are cheating for civil war and all of that.

did you expect? You offended Islam, which is kind of its offensive in its own way too, because that pretends that everybody who's a Muslim feels the same way about the Satanic verses, and that allowed uh, you know, Iyotota Kamane to dictate terms in that sense, which included putting out an international hit on salmon Rushdi and and I think that that sort of gets into something you and I have talked about, Danielle, where it's like we're kind of trapped because like, we don't want to tell people

not to say what they want to say, however controversial, publicly, because that's their right and they should exercise it in any seating of ground on that especially right now given how there is a crackdown being pushed by the state. Is essentially giving into that. But at the same time, you're not wrong that it is clear that you're then incentivizing or adding to the incentive for someone crazy who has no meaning in their life and as we know, and who's lonely, and as we know that's a very

big problem, as we've said, to take action. So it's a sort of paradox that we're stuck in, at least in the United States, because of how much value we place on free expression. So do you see that the challenge we thought we talked about a little bit. I want to let you.

rest of your life. Now, as people are online constantly, they are like, I'll start after the cirk saying I would start a day totally fine, and I open social media and I'm in a shitty mood an hour later. And this is because we are bombarded with people who are merchants or outrage, who are merchants of hate, who make their money spreading hate and fan in the flames. And we do that, not an article here and there. They do that twenty four to seven. It's a constant thing.

I take my fashion very seriously. I respected and I tried to and I have to agree with DANIELI about this, about the fact that I'm a member of a Livian journalists association and a lot of people, you know, I spoke about this with some people who comment on this ongoing Ukraine war online and I thought they also were into this whole journalism stuff, and I started talking about them about sources and everything, and I'm like, okay, we have an ethics code and we have like this and

this and this which you have to do. And then they were just uninformed about like the basic standards of what you have to do and everything, and a lot of these cases there. Of course they are bad journalists and not saying like a lot of bad people out there. However, when when I understood that, these guys stopped communicating with me after I just said that, Okay, so you want to interview me with this stuff. Okay, I have no magratitation. I need to check you through this. The heat is

op sex stuff. And they had no idea that this even existed, and they are just like super popular out there. This there's a reason why this thing, when they can seriously done properly, is important, which is why you know, I became journalist because I read Hunter S. Thompson and that's that's that's how I do this. And you know I lately I've I've taken to to the fact that, yeah,

I call him, that's only called my I deserve. I've earned to call myself Gonzo, to be honest, and I take pride in this, which is why the nearly these point is very accurate. We you, we might not like this, but the fact that the fact that you have an editor out there that balances out your thoughts and that you're not just you know what, first thing that pops

into your head. You just can't publish it instantly, that you have to go that it has to go through some some sort of some aspect of being like, okay, we can't publish this for this and this reason. This also moderates the discussion levels because social media really blew this all up. Social media made this whole thing more. You know, everyone can. This is how fake news were born.

And social media really allowed everyone with their craziest that is, to be plopped out, gain audience, and and no one fact checks them, like no one, No one does. Fact checking does not matter because you know it's out there and even if if, even if something gets blocked or or or something GE's you know, pushed out as oh, oh this was fake news. Yeah, it's gone already. It's already gone. It's out there, and no one cares.

or a computer. You had to print it out, you had to fold it up, put it in an envelope, send it to the you like, find out what the address is the paper, send it there. I mean, so many little things like that, essentially got in the way of people sort of fanning the flames. As you said, Now all they have to do is just they're reading it on their phone anyway, and then just click the share button and then say what they want to say

or whatever. And in that sense, these merchants of outrage, as you put at Danielle, they are like they're essentially outsourcing that part of their work to the reading public. And we're seeing that. We were seeing that right after the Charlie Kirk assassination of both people being gleeful about it and then sharing some terrible article in the Nation saying that he had it coming. And then you had

people saying this is the worst thing ever. If you're gleeful about it, I hope you get canceled, and sharing all the statements made by members of the Trump administration essentially threatening the same thing, or Republicans threatening the same thing, like Clay Higgins. So it just these people, but by essentially outsourcing that to the public using social media, they're able to abdicate responsibility for turning up the temperature. And that's the problem.

That is the bad guys. They spend twenty four to seven arguing now they are the ultimate evil, and then when one of the deranged follower will plant a bomb or shoot somebody or something, they'll go like me, I never advocated violence. It's like, you piece of shit. You did everything other than saying go shooting. You know, this

is what people do constantly. And in that sense, there's yeah, look at the people doing that, look at the people like the and they are perfect because like the response right now to the correct thing has been exactly that has been, like, we need to destroy anyone who's not a full blown fascist and doesn't believe that we should hand the homeless for sport. It's clearly an evil gay

communists to need to be murdered. And I'm just like, this is obviously the result of these merch and of outrage, having planted, having been rewarded for years with tons of money and attention by planting seeds of hatred so that you can't have a fucking conversation anymore with somebody without

it evolving immediately and we need to shoot you. And that's the reason why Dan Carlyn is not doing common sense, whereas there's every other asshole with a political platform is pushing the most extreme scapegoat impossible because that's what the algorithms reward. The problem is, Okay, let's talk solution. What is the solution that? Never mind that you would actually need a good government to do that, and that's clearly not the case. But if you add a good government,

what do you do. You have a government that mandates that social media platform have to change their algorithms to encourage puppies and flowers and touching the grass and stuff. I mean, that's clearly not good in a sense in the government. But the current state that we have now where the where the default answer is pushing hatred and what's going to lead to increasing level of violence, Well

that's not a solution neither, clearly. So I'm not saying the government need to mandate the way algorithms work, but I'm also saying the current system is not bad. It's so beyond the bed that I'm willing to listen to pretty much any alternative At this point.

they're saying. But I'm wondering if maybe like requiring users to not have user names, maybe making it or like you have a username, but then underneath it it says what your actual name is, maybe we should just maybe everybody should be if like you, if you want to use X, or if you want to use Facebook, or if you want to use whatever, you have to doc yourself essentially, so you have to take responsibility for what you say. I don't think that's a good solution for.

the face of our laws that we have. We'd have to do a major rethinking of our our essentially our our First Amendment, which I don't think is a good idea. It just I mean, and I'm biased, obviously, but I just I also think it's a bad idea because it also doesn't really match up with the reality of people

making decisions to commit violent acts. The people who commit violence are never pushed to I mean that the research is pretty clear that people decide to be violent and then find justifications for that violence after the fact or in the in the act of doing it. But they were going to commit violence no matter what.

you don't even understand. Because when you speak to the soldiers with even motivation in Ukraine, and when they start talking about their horrific events, and when they start talking about random deaths as if it was Tuesday with complete detachment, Yeah, I can, I can see how if you're not like this is this is why they're really pushing, pushing out there for for these people in Ukraine, ternsically go and get some help because it is necessary. Otherwise it is

going to be horrible. Simply horrible. Violence leaves a arc on you, and especially real life violence, because a lot of people don't even understand what does it even mean? It is something horrible that you see and that at

the moment in time it seems like something normal. But you know, I'm sad to say, but I will never forget how a burnt body smells like it is always stuck in my head and I'm just it's just something I have to deal with, and and those things are those things that people again, which is why I do my own episodes so sometimes in a very raw matter, very brutally, because when people go into this very violent aspect people, when people treat violence like it's something that

can be joked about, right, when they treat its threats

like it's something just just normal, that sort of normalization. Really, if you're not prepared for what you're about to see, which you are about to experience, then this really opens up the floodgate because in a lot of cases, I've also seen a bunch of bunch of media people who then you know, who have thought that, oh, well, I'm just going to go into this and do war journalism is going to be fun, you know, excitement and adventure, and then they see through hotro and then then then

it's it stops being funny and entertaining really really quickly. Real violence is not entertaining. Real violence is not fun. Real violence is something that that I don't wish anyone to experience. Real love close it is it is, it is, this is this is the point where a lot of people, you know, only people who haven't seen real war and stuff.

They only they can glorify it. It is impossible to justify it anywhere or form, And and it is just something that once you, once you if once you get stuck into this, understand how disgusting that that stuff is and and that that is a really I'm sunny that I'm speaking about this, but once you say about this exposure to violence, it's not just it's not just exposure.

It just the fact that they think it's cool. And then they see the sanitized parts of this, when when war gets turned into lines on maps instead of the greedy parts. When you when you think it's cool, then then yeah, it's credible. Okay, I'm sorry for yapping gone.

exposure to violence, uh. Through research out there is that I think maybe watching unfiltered footage of violence is it's probably not it's it's definitely not the same as being next to it, but it's definitely much more extreme than you know, watching uh, you know, like a discussion about it, or people talking about it, or or or even a censored version of it. And dare I say it. I don't want to put too fine a point on and Danielle, your point is still very well taken about people ratcheting

up the temperature. But I think the footage of Charlie Kirk and his throat blown out from twelve different angles, and not to mention the thousands of people who were actually there seeing it.

you guys, but also read history. But so whenever I hear somebody with a non American accent say Americans just don't get it, it's gotten me feeling really warm inside, you know, like people just don't get it when it comes to cheering on Civil War. They don't know what

they're asking to happen. They're not they don't know what they're begging to happen, it seems, so I guess that's what I want to let you guys, you know, get into, is like, like, what would you tell Americans cheering this stuff on, Like what do they not understand?

episode on that. That's one of my hardest ones. If you go listen to that, it's very rough and brutal. But sorry for self promotion, but that's check their attitudes. Just a bunch of direct quotes. That's all. I'm sorry for just interrupting here. Just I have to really answer to my wife here. But it's a heavy subject and I have episodes on this. Give them a listen, and then if you want to civil war, well then then then you probably go go get some help.

I look fifteen years ago. I think it is. It is why because when you looking and I understand where you're coming from, and diagree, because you are coming from the idea of when they wear the campaigns against the video games, because where censorship was the answer to some social changes that some stuck up person didn't like, and so they were yelling at video games, they were yelling at music or yelling at and it's like Jesus man,

it's like that was censorship against the basic artistic expression and things like that terrible. So I understand why you would have a very sensitive spot to it. I think the difference now, though, is that fifteen years ago social media was in infancy. It was barely a thing. What I'm talking about is not just the video game or the music or the thing. I'm talking primarily about the impact of social media and the social media influencers in politics. And when it's not the song you put on, it's

not even a game you play around there. But when you are talking about something that's twenty four to seven is what people spend most of their days looking at, I think the impact is very different. And so I see whereas saying, you know, words don't cause violence in the abstract, I could agree when we're talking about yeah, maybe you know odds it makes me do it kind

of thing. Was sort of ridiculous. But when you start looking at you listen to somebody for four hours a day and this person tells you that this group of people are the devil, and every problem you've ever read is because of those people. Of course it's gonna lead to violence. It's like, it's not even if it's like it's a guarantee.

But the problem that there is a connection between violent rhetoric. I mean, you don't end up, you don't create the Holocaust without years of anti Jewish propaganda before, it just doesn't happen.

And this actually would be really interesting to study. I would love to see some more data on it, on existential language, because that's what you're talking about, the idea of you know, like, well, it's funny, we were kind of joking about this, but like people were starting to use increasingly existential language to talk about cultural things, whether it was you know, casting a black man as Snape in the Harry Potter series or getting worked up about

a shirt having hot babes on it. At the end of the day, what is going on with that with making everything political, as people say colloquially, is you're really creating existential suggestions in people's mind that something is deeply wrong. Not just maybe kind of annoying or offensive to very particular people. There's something much more serious about that, and that has to do with like grabbing attention and so on and so forth. They don't have to get into

like why existential language was getting used. It's I think it's almost certainly about attention grabbing. But yeah, maybe the use of existential language and framing, framing, that's the word

I was looking for. Maybe that has a cost to the human psyche that we just don't really appreciate that I don't appreciate I could be off on that if if I was to criticize my own position on things, it's that I don't know if there is a cost to using existential language and framing on things in speech sincerely and in a way that is compelling to other people. I don't know how one could possibly legislate their way

out of that. I don't think. I mean, as you said, Danielle, we're and you know, as I was saying, we're kind of trapped in that respect. But I think that that is an interesting angle that I I that I want to think about more so, I do wanna I'm gonna I'm gonna put a pin in that in my own head. Uh, and then consider that down the line, please do.

wins these games. Nobody wins low engagement civil war like that. You're gonna have a bunch of murders tick for that where you kill their guy, they kill their guy, you kill and absolutely nobody comes out on top. In that way. You just have a giant blood bat for a really long time. And this is not a I'm not even taking about like it's not a regular war where sure an army may eventually end up winning regardless of what

the coast may be. I'm talking about this low level murder back and forth at the neighborhood level, like militia. Nobody wins those games.

my own feelings on it a bit too. I guess I just want to let you guys, have you know the last word in what do you think needs to be understood by the people who are cheering this stuff on? Like what do they need to understand? And maybe that that they don't understand now, like what what do you how do you want to close that close that circle there.

They're only a part of that a joke. And and and the fact is that what I would say is the practical advice is which is from one of my books on journalism that I studied upon, but Russian journalists luxilitives on of and he wrote a very important thing that a true professional journalist never never offends anyone unintentionally. If you want to offense someone, make it precise and

exact right, then you know why you're doing this. But if you're callous and just casual about this, then of course people will get angry because don't be that just you know, be a person that only only offends people intentionally. Be that kind of person. Think about this. It's actually it's deeper than you think. That's a practical advice.

I do too. I want you know, hear some Tomatoes series like bring it back to a level where humans are not reduced just to one idea, and unfortunately we do that all. I mean, even if we do that all the time, look a like COVID. In COVID, there were people who were either full on like we need to nuke the unvaccinated, or there were people that if you took a COVID vaccine, you are the enemy because you allied yourself with the evil powers of the world.

It's like Jesus Christ Man, these are your neighbors who are trying to figure out what to do in a massive, stressful situation with very limited information. They may make a damn choice according to you, but who cares. That doesn't make them the enemy, you know what I mean? That may make them. Oh, I disagree with your choice.

down the temperature. There's this famous story that I absolutely love of this one African American bluesman befriended a bunch of KKK guys and somehow, through his ability to befriend these people who hate him, he was able to have a bunch of them turning their KKK membership and be done with it. So to me, that's easier said than done. But that's the game. Going on Twitter saying we need to massacre all the people who believe this. Yeah, not a good idea.