Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio.
Morning glory and evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means it's the last broadcast hour of the week. Welcome to the Hillsdale Dialogue. I'm joined by Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale can be found@hillsdale.edu. All of our prior dialogues@hughforhillsdale.com. Doctor Hillsdale movie did pretty well. I was very pleased to hear that.
Yeah, it's rolling it. Uh, it's pretty good. I think it, uh, yeah, it, uh, I was thrilled when I watched it, you know? I mean it, but I didn't watch it until about 3 or 4 days before it came out. And, uh, it captures two things that I think are most important. How hard it was and how they were reduced to risking their lives for matters of principle. And they didn't know how I was going to come out. And, uh, so it's, it's lovely.
When we come back to talk before the fourth about the founding, we'll talk more about that. But your premiere was at the Detroit Central Station, which I don't think was a go zone when I was in law school in Michigan in the 80s. What's it like now?
Well, they apparently they spent $2 billion. It's a glorious old central city railway station. And it was a ruin, a complete ruin. And they spent a lot of money on it and they restored it to pristine glory. It's just a lovely place. And, uh, so we're one of the first big events in it. There was a story about the restoration. You know, there's some pride in Detroit. Detroit has been a great city, and there's some comeback going on in Detroit right now. But there's a in
the porte cochere entryway. On one side of it, there was a great gold clock and it was missing. And so the people restored it, advertised for it. And a man came forward who was born in the neighborhood and still lived in it. And he had always loved that clock, and he had rescued it and put it in his garage. And it was in there for 30 years, and they advertised for it to come back. He brought it back. So it's really great. It's a great story. A lot of things like that there.
One last question about the Premier. Tom Selleck narrates the Hillsdale movie on the founding, which may or may not still be in theaters. I'm not sure. But the the fact is that two.
More nights, the fifth and the eighth, to the fifth and 8th of June.
Fifth and 8th of June. Great. That is terrific. And so but was Cilic at the opening.
He was. Yeah. And and um he's a he I just you know I know him a little bit. And uh, he is a marvelous man. He's an excellent human being. You know, he's world famous and he's not ruined by that at all. Uh, he's a listener to your show. He wants you to talk about the fact that he did a really great movie about Eisenhower, and that you should mention it when you mention this new one. Oh, I will, uh, I will.
And you just did.
A quick little thing, and his movie is very good. I have a quick little story about him. You know, it's got to be 35 years ago, our youngest child was a babe in arms. And we went to an event where Tom Selleck was, and we ended up having a drink with him. And then he drove us back to our hotel in his limo, and we talked for an hour and a half. He didn't remember it, but
I remember it distinctly. And what my wife remembers is that as we were leaving, we had dropped our Alice's blankie and he saw it and rescued it and gave it to us. And so I was able to tell the story that while this event was going on at the Michigan Central Station, our Alice was having her first child. Oh.
Oh. That is connecting a big circle of light there. But it's good that he rescued the blankie. That's, uh, that's Magnum P.I. work right there. So that's it?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Tom Selleck. I will watch the movie because I think you'd make a good Ike. I'm not. I don't know how Brendan Fraser did in the new pressure movie, but I will watch it. Let's move then on, and we'll come back and remind people about the Hillsdale film on, uh, the week after as well. And hopefully it will come back because people want to see it again. Dwayne really
loved it. I want your thoughts on what is exactly going on between the United States and Iran, Israel and Hezbollah, UAE, Kuwait. Last Tuesday night, Iran attacked again. We're taping on Wednesday for playing on Friday. We don't know what's going to happen, but this does not look like a cease fire to me. Does it look like a cease fire to you?
No. It's easier to talk about the broad strategic implications of all this than what's going on right now, because we don't know, and we don't know how this particular thing is going to come out. There are two arguments that I am attracted to. One of them is supportive of Trump's general strategy, and one is critical in one way of how we're going about it in Iraq. Iran, sorry, the supportive one says that what Trump is interested in
is restraining our enemies. He doesn't think he can eliminate them. He doesn't think he can turn them into democracy and friends. He wants to punish their behavior that harms us. And Venezuela is an episode in that. And Midnight Hammer, the earlier strike on Iran is an episode of that. And this is an episode of that. And it's, uh, you know, been, you know, Greenland. We have more access to Greenland than we have and China had, and China has less. And
he's talking about Cuba. And so that's a strategy that looks to America's interest and is forward looking and doesn't want us surrounded and cut off. And China gets huge amount of its oil from Venezuela and Iran, and that's in jeopardy for them. Now. Both are, uh, so that's one thing. And that looks to me like that's if that's what he's thinking, that's sound thinking. We have to think like that. The negative thing is a comparison of our strategy and tactics in Iran in this war and Israel's.
And the claim is that they're better at strategic interdiction. That is to say, go hurt them in their fundamentals as fast as you can. And we. And the claim of this article, and I don't really know for sure, but the claim of this article is that we need to do that harder. We need to take them down in their key elements of power. And that air power can do that. You know, air power has been growing in importance since the Second World War that we're talking
about in in our Churchill studies. And so there's that. And I'm attracted to that argument. I don't know that I know that Trump is failing in that regard or succeeding in that regard, but I'm attracted to it because in one way, time is very much on our side and in another way, not at all. Uh, we've got an election coming. This is going to affect that. It will affect it. How much? Nobody knows. The election will probably be close. Whichever way. Whoever controls the Congress after
it's over. But we know you like there's a very powerful impulse to get it done. And if you're a free country. Fighting wars, when you get all geared up, you can fight them really well, but you can't fight them forever or continuously. So my thoughts are mostly long, and I read the news every morning trying to peer into the future and see what's coming.
Now the blockade makes sense.
I'll add something.
Go ahead.
I think the decisive difference between this and the previous Middle East wars we've been in is that we're not proceeding on the principles of liberal imperialism. Correct. That is to say, we're not we're not saying that we can't be safe until they become democratic, because it's not really in our power to make that happen or anybody's power outside them if they have the power. So that that I salute very much and, uh, keep my fingers crossed.
And as I am always saying, I don't know how the war is going to come out, I just know I'm on our side.
Well, I am agreed with that. But I like the blockade. And, and we have had success with blockades in Cuba, with breaking them vis a vis Berlin. We know about blockades from England and French wars of long ago. Do you. We had a minute to the break. Do you like the idea of the blockade as opposed to the active combat operations?
I think that was very innovative. And, uh. And see, I don't, uh. Yeah, and I, and I do think it's, you know, long term. Very good. Apparently, I checked this morning. There's a trickle of ships coming through the right straits. A few of them, uh, of the few a preponderance are friends of Iran, China and such. Um, but we're, you know, we're, we, we've shut them down and it hurts them and how fast it hurts them and how much it hurts them. It's, you know, that's to be
revealed because I don't know. And I don't think, you know, it's very possible. Like, I think, uh, the Secretary of war is very capable and did a good job, uh, going to talk in Singapore about America's strategic interest and how we'll pursue them. And he's not looking for domination of Asia. He's looking for a balance of power.
And that was a good speech. We'll be right back with doctor on the Singapore Security Conference, which is a big deal if you missed it. Obviously Doctor Oren Denton. Stay tuned. I'll be right back. Welcome back America. The Hillsdale dialogue is underway. I'm Hugh Hewitt. My guest is Doctor Larry Arnn. We're doing a look at some of the events of the week this week, as I occasionally do with doctor on all things Hillsdale, including all their
online courses are collected@hillsdale.edu. You can sign up there for Imprimis as well, the free monthly speech digest that comes from Hillsdale and all of our dialogues on all sorts of subjects dating back ten years, are collected at hue for hillsdale.com. Doctor Aaron, I was trying to remember, and I can't remember whether or not you and I were introduced by our late friend Tom Fuentes in 1978 or 1989. It was one or the other and it was at the Coco's at the intersection of El Toro. But the
point doesn't really matter about which year. It's just that we've known each other from California for a long time, and we both have very strong opinions on California. I lived there from 1989 to 2016. You had gone to run Hillsdale before that, but you lived there a long time and concern yourself about it. So we both kind of root for the state, and we kind of want Pete Wilson back. And what do you make of the
fact that Steve Hilton? We won't know for sure for a while, but looks like he made the run off. And Spencer Pratt looks like we won't know for a while. Made the run off in LA.
Well, isn't that something? You know, I mean, um, uh, there's a lot to be said for plain talk. And, uh, especially Spencer Pratt. He's, uh, so plain that he's almost Trumpian. Trumpian in his candor. And, uh, he has arrested the country, and, you know, who is that guy, anyway? Somebody's house burned down, and he's articulate. And, uh, I was asked by my friend, uh, Tunku, who writes for the Wall Street Journal. He said he was going to interview him. I haven't seen the interview yet.
He said, what should I ask him? And I said, I don't know what to ask him. He's just going to talk. I said, but find out if he knows anything. Well, since then he's been in a couple of debates and he's learned a lot. He's been impressive. Right? So and you know, the situation is terrible, right? And it's in California. Uh, he describes the Spencer Pratt describes a Los Angeles. Like, you know, I, I went to Southern California from Arkansas to go to graduate school in 1974, and it looked
like a big old Disneyland to me. And it was pretty and it was clean for the most part. There were pockets that were not so, but most of it was the freeways worked, you know, and, and it was competently, relatively speaking, managed. And it's decay now all over the place. Right. It's and it's visible and, and it's not just you're showing the houses that burn down, right? They didn't have water in the reservoirs to fight the fires. And that's
just incompetence and ideology that caused that to happen. So if there's a rebellion underway there about that, God bless them. You know.
Uh, what I, what I raise is the reality check. They were around when we were there, which was the service, the, the public sector unions. But the California Teachers Association was big, but it was joined by the prison guards by the tribes. And now they are joined at the hip with the Service Employees International Union, and they basically run the state. And they do not run it in the interest of
the people of California. It would take quite a remarkable uprising of voters to say, enough with the homelessness and the drugs. That's what's driving Pratt. Hilton is driven by a lot of things, like in the Central Valley. They've they've hated Democrats forever, But along the coast, if you can get into one of the coastal enclaves, you're kind of removed from it, but no longer. Now, the chaos that is California has invaded, uh, Marina Del Rey and
Newport Beach and, and San Diego. And so as a result, I think that it's possible one or both of them, if they get through the counting process, which is suspect in my mind, because it takes ten ballots will be counted if they arrive within seven days of the close of voting on Election Day. That's a bad thing. And therefore there's much mischief to be done or thought is being done. Are you an optimist after Tuesday night?
And I mean, my mental weather remains relatively consistent. I think we're in a great battle for the soul of our country, and it's going to go on for quite a while, and ultimately we're going to win it. But I don't wake up in the morning thinking today is the day.
Uh, so in California, it would require breaking these deeply embedded political institutions that are funded by public employees. That is, to me, the greatest impediment. And I'll be seeing Pete Wilson in in July. And Pete Wilson knew how to be a governor. If Hilton gets through to being the governor and needs to use his powers, do you think he will do that? California Constitution gives the governor great power. I mean, an enormous amount of power to act as governor.
Yeah. See, the reason for optimism is, you know, one of the things you look around in your country is there's plenty of things to worry about, but this is still a vigorous country, right? It's productive. There's a lot of entrepreneurship. There's a lot of fight left in it. And and, you know, you look at Europe and see
that we enjoy some advantages here. And so and now think about the administrative state and its control of everything and the vast, complicated system it has formed that's so expensive and consumes, you know, more than half the economy if you include the entitlement programs and the regulatory costs. Well, public choice theory, that economic principle, right. In the end, the subsidies of the few in California are very heavy, and the cost on the many is great. And, you know,
a lot of people are leaving. That's one reason the elections run the way they do. A lot of people who are independent, people who raise families and have jobs and do businesses have left California, but the remaining ones are still in a large majority who have no real interest in this mess. And so in potential, there's an electoral revolution possible.
All right. We will hope that much. Stay tuned. America. I'll be right back with more of the Hillsdale dialogue. I hope that much, but I'm not at all certain that that much is going to happen. They're cheating. Not cheating. Shouldn't say cheating. The red shift meaning towards the blue is underway right now. Welcome back America, I'm Hugh Hewitt. Turning now with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College, to a broader electoral map. The Democrats have nominated some
interesting people. A congressman who was a character witness for the blind sheik in the first World Trade Center bombing tower in Michigan. A couple of DSA congressional candidates in Pennsylvania. It appears that Graham Plattner, the very troubled man in Maine, will be the Democratic nominee in Maine. Up in Maine, although the governor, Janet Mills, remains on the ballot, they could still. He could still drop out. I mean, he could.
We'll see. And then Mr. El-Sayed in Michigan, which is the home of Hillsdale College and about whom I expect Doctor Aaron will know more than me. And then Peggy Flanagan in Minnesota appears to be leading in that. These are all radicals, doctor. These are not your mother and father's Democrats or my grandfather who was a Roosevelt Democrat. Democrat, FDR, you know, firemen during the depression. These are different. And do you think they have staying power?
Well, if they do, the country is finished. I mean, they're so you can look at it in three ways. First of all, that kind of politics, in my opinion, cannot be sustained nationally or the or the nation cannot be sustained. So I guess I'll say two ways. The other way is there's always been a few extremists present in American politics, a few. Right. We've had a Communist Party in America forever. We still haven't. We've had Socialist Party in America. You know, the labor leader, Eugene Debs,
you know, all that has been around. And it's a big country and there's a lot of people in it. And so there's support in pockets for people like that. So that's not going to go away. Is it? You know, the extremes are growing in America. I have the sense and I think it has something to do with social media. Uh, the fact that, uh, you can just reach a lot of people now and then we get respect if we
get our numbers up on YouTube or something. And that's very different from the quality or truth of the arguments that you're making. So that exaggerates some of this stuff on both the left and the right and worse on the left, I think, but on both.
I also heard Karl Rove, who is a very, very brilliant man on Tuesday night, articulate that one of the worst things to happen to American politics is the rise of a consulting class that will rake in 30 to 40% of dollars given over the internet, and that therefore, they they tend to want to nominate radicals because radicals attract the ten and the $15 contributions with which they buy second and third homes. I think there's a lot to that. What do you think?
Well, you know, sure. There's, um got to move them. You know, I've taken up, uh, woodworking a little bit and. Oh no, I've actually cut my finger.
I was going to ask. Let's see your fingers.
So I'm a real I'm a real live woodworker now. And, uh, you know, it's not that I'm good, but I bled on the wood. That's a badge of honor. Anyway, if you watch what I. What I watch on YouTube is almost exclusively woodworking stuff, but you can just see how it's laid out. First of all, people who are good on woodworking on YouTube tend to be very decent people. You learn about them. If you watch them, they tell you how to do things, you know, and they tend
to be really decent people. Uh, there's a guy named the Wood Whisperer. I like him a lot. He's very serious, man. And, uh, anyway, there's also crazies and on the headlines on YouTube to get you to watch. They. There's always words like game over and everything is. This is the end or everything is different now. The best of them are not so extreme, but some of them are. And then they have all
these little tricks. If you stay to the end, you know, they started out saying, because YouTube apparently tracks all that stuff. Oh yeah. And they get rewarded. And so there's, it's, uh, it's, you know, it's a, you know, rhetoric has always been interested, just read Aristotle in keeping the attention of the audience. But the techniques here are quick and they lend themselves in many cases to extremes. And, uh, so that's sort of how you do it, right? And, uh, so that's bad.
And that will produce the kind of woodworking. Maybe we should run a whisperer.
Here's a tip.
We'll run the wood whisperer.
Table saws are very dangerous. Uh, cut me and and and apparently, every minute somebody cut with his table saw. Uh, but so be careful if you do it. But it's fun, and I I'm not going to show you.
But in the next segment.
Kevin and my wife approves.
We'll take a break. You can grab that. Don't go anywhere, America. The Hillsdale Dialogue and the Wood Whisperer 2.0 continues right after this. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with the president of Hillsdale College. And now he'll be teaching woodworking 101 to the freshmen. I think, uh, you know, both of my brothers took that up. Doctor, I am not going to do that. I like my fingers. I don't want to cut them. And most of my friends would
tell me it's too dangerous. Have you got any exhibits of your work there handy that you can show us?
No, not that I can show you, but they're right here. I mean, well, let's say this in a in a future episode, I will show you my cabinets that I built and.
You built cabinets.
And, uh, they're not quite finished yet, but, um, uh, but one, one bank of them is and my wife walked in and see, like when you start, when you start this crazy thing. And by the way, we're teaching carpentry course, I'm not going to teach it, but, uh, next term at Hillsdale, we're going to start shop class at Hillsdale College. But, uh, and there's huge interest in students with it. But when you start woodworking, you build things for your shop because that's how you learn how
to do it. And also it doesn't annoy the people in your family who have tastes like my wife in that case. And so then eventually, if you get semi good, you can invade the house. And in my case, the part, the part of the house that is more or less my domain is this study where I'm sitting right now, and the rest of it is a big industrial place. This is a nice house, but college stuff happens here and my wife runs it and her stuff is all
over the place. Right? So now I've encroached into the study, and then we'll see if I get good enough to go out into the public areas.
It's the harmony of your woodworking. You've got to get off the beach, Larry. You got to get off the beach.
Right?
Let me move to the last segment for this next segment, the redistricting wars. I've had lots of conversations over the last few weeks with many senior and not so senior people, and I think it'll all work out. It doesn't bother me. There's nothing unconstitutional with drawing lines to win partisan races. In fact, in the earlier Republic, they would redraw the lines every time a different party took control of the state.
So redistricting does not bother me. But the court ruled finally, conclusively. You may not use race to award benefits or inflict penalties in the course of redistricting. It's that simple. That's the decision. I am not bothered by this, but I thought I would ask you, a student of political theory as well as American politics, whether rampant redistricting bothers you?
Well, uh, yes and no. What's important is, uh, it's in the 63rd Federalist now. It's in the 51st Federalist. Madison says that the government has to, uh, represent the great body of the people. And so if we got an oligarchy, I mean, we talked about California earlier, uh, that they they got the election system cooked and, and it can't move with public opinion. That's very bad. Right. And right now we're in a divided country and elections are narrow and the Congress is narrow, which is one sign.
It's a gross big general sign that it's not completely out of hand. The second thing I'll say about it is it is hallowed. It's called gerrymandering. Elbridge Gerry, that's how he said his name. Massachusetts politician. Correct. Delegate to the Constitutional Convention. Agreed to sign it only after the Bill of rights was introduced. Important man. He did it first in 1812 in Massachusetts. And he drew this district and it looked like a salamander. And so they renamed
it a Gerry or gerrymander. And it's been going on in America ever since then. And and it could become an evil that would present prevent representation and you know, it. I read that it's carried so far to its farthest extreme in the blue states, but there's no statewide official or member of Congress from the Republican Party in Massachusetts. Correct. I think that's true. And, and so it's, uh, so yeah, it's, it, uh, and then there are these attempts to neutralize it, right?
To make it nonpartisan and that those ones, what they, what I've always suspected there was a great guy who's an expert on this and sort of made his life around it. Alan Hislop was his name in Claremont, and he favored either a rules based system where you start up in one corner of the state, and all the districts have to be continuous and contiguous and compact, and you just draw across the state and see what you get.
And the other is nonpartisan commissions, the nonpartisan commission way, way. It's very difficult to actually achieve that because it's partisan effort. Right? And so one of their techniques is to prevent is to pick judges to be on the commission and like they're all nonpartisan or to pick academics to be on the commissions, like they're all nonpartisan. So it's A and C, you don't you know, I think one abiding idea I have is that I'm against a overall centralized nationalized system.
In other words, spread it around and let the political system move with movements of public opinion. And that's harder now because we have to remember, if you're in 1812 or any time up until 1930, the government is consuming and regulating no more than 12% of the gross domestic product. And now it's more than half. And so the stakes are enormous now. See, and that's why so much effort and energy is poured into it. And why the party that that increases partisan strife.
Well, it does increase, but the great sort of red people moving to red states and blue people moving to blue states has been ongoing and does not show to me to be any signs of decelerating. Michigan remains one of the genuine swing states. Has it tilted one way or the other decisively? And then we'll go to a break. One minute Larry.
It's still a swing state. We don't know how you know. There's some good candidates for statewide office this year, and we don't know how that's going to go. But they're competitive. Yeah. It's and, you know, one of my friends who's the gloomiest friend and you know, he's a very good guy. He's very experienced in politics. And he said, Donald Trump brings 5 million votes into electoral politics and he's not on the ballot ever again. And so he that's sort
of a dispositive fact for him. I choose not to know.
I choose not to know as well. I'll be right back with Doctor Ryan for the final segment of this week's Hillsdale dialogue. Stay tuned. Welcome back America. I wanted to finish today's Hillsdale dialogue by talking about Revolutionary America, which is the documentary that's in theaters again on June 5th. And I think on June 8th. You said doctor answer. That will be tonight and and on Tuesday night. And give us just a minute on why people ought to
go and see this movie, Revolutionary America. It's a fathom event. So you got to find the theater, which it is showing, but it's across the United States.
Uh, well, it's probably the best representation of revolutionary America ever made on film. And, you know, I, you know, I made it indirectly. Uh, people working for me made it and I'm in it. But I mean that for this reason, it shows two things about it. First of all, it encapsulates the history from 1763 until the passage of the Constitution beautifully in two hours. And its pace is awesome. And, uh, that's one thing. The second thing is you can't miss
the sense because it's told in chronological order. You can't miss the sense that they thought they were going to be killed, let alone fail. And they were driven to it, and they just had adopted some principles, and they couldn't put up with the claim by the parliament and the king that we may govern you without being elected by you in all cases whatsoever. Right. That's just despotism, right? Never mind. What they did is mild compared to 20th
century despotism, which is unfair. 21st century, which is, you know, totalitarian. The principle is there, isn't it? We can tax you and we can regulate your trade, and we can put our troops in your houses and we can arrest you and put you on a ship taking months to get to England, to be tried, not before a jury of your peers and our delegate, our designate, the governor's general. They can interfere with the legislature and the operation of
the courts. So that's complete, right? That's what. And they were. And then how are we going to fight these guys? One of the points that I personally make in the film is there is no American who had ever moved a large body of troops under his command from one place to another, let alone deployed them in a battle. And the British were good at that, right? They were very experienced and very capable. Right. And then they had complete domination of the seas for most of the revolution.
And so it looked hopeless. There's a great quote in it. One guy in and I remember which, who was a heavy man, said to a skinny man who was a delegate, who signed both signed the declaration. I had the advantage of you. When we are home. I will go quickly. You may dangle for hours. That's on the morning they went and signed the document.
Anyway. Well, that is revolutionary America. It is in theaters tonight, near you. Go and find out where it is on on Fathom Events and again, I believe on Tuesday night. And we'll be back with the Hillsdale Dialogues next week. Doctor thank you doctor Larry Arnn.
Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to hillsdale.edu.