Beyond the world of duality, there is an experience that I can access right now that has nothing to do with this world. So will there ever be a time when there are no wars, no conflicts? Probably not, but there can be that in my mind.
What if kind words can end an argument or diffuse an upset in a matter with somebody else? So, in this world where political strife and social unrest is really pulling people apart, the need for solutions is urgent. How do we find ways to bridge these divides or heal fractured relationships and have a better understanding in such a polarized time? I want you to brace yourself, because a plan for peace is about to surround you like a warm blanket.
For over three decades, he has been a global force for peace, guiding millions through synchronized meditations, spreading messages of unity. As a New York Times bestselling author, he has over 24 books, including the Moses Code, and he's a musician with 22 albums to his name. James Twyman, the peace troubadour. You have touched so many lives around the world, but now you are here.
You're tackling one of the greatest challenges we face today the depolarization that's fracturing families, businesses and really entire nations. And your latest book and I'm going to say it like I would say it to somebody else I don't know, maybe I love you offers more than just a call to awareness. It's really a movement to bring people together. It is such an honor to have you on HIListically Speaking. It is a gift, and thank you for being here on the show.
Well, thank you, Hilary. It's an honor for me to be able to share and to be with you and everyone on this beautiful program.
So first I want to start. Did I say the book correctly? Because to me it seemed like a statement to break that wall between somebody else when you're having the relationship, when you're having the conversation.
You said it exactly exactly as it was said originally. In fact, I'll tell you the story of how it all happened. I was talking to my younger brother on the phone. Now, as younger brothers can sometimes be, he always wants to prove himself and beat me at whatever it is we're playing, whether it's a game of basketball or an argument, and he tends to be better informed than me on a lot of things.
So we were talking and we do also tend to have different sides of the argument and I realized that he was winning. So I just said Kenny, I don't know, maybe I love you. And the argument just ended right there, and I realized in that moment that something magical had just happened when I didn't defend myself and I didn't assert myself and try and make him wrong, a space opened where we could come together rather than be pushed further apart.
And isn't that the issue that we're facing so often today In our need to be right, or what I like to call the pandemic of being right? This is, I think, the real core In enforcing this. We push each other away rather than trying to find the commonality, and three simple statements I don't know, maybe I love you can be a beginning to bringing not only a couple of people together, but the whole world.
Yeah, and I'm curious in that moment, when you had that conversation with Kenny, did you know that there was a book in what you stated? I mean, where, at that point, did it happen?
I did not. In fact, I was determined not to write a book. I'd written 23 books at that point and I was just kind of finished, not really wanting to do all the work. I figured I had said what I had wanted to say. And then what happened?
Back in September I was on a concert tour on the East Coast and I drove from Portland, oregon, all the way to the East Coast and I was up in northern New Hampshire with a friend of mine who was sponsoring an event I was doing, and that night he and his wife and I went out to dinner and I didn't realize that his wife owned a small publishing company, and so we were chatting and I said to her I don't intend to write any more books, but if I did, this is the one I would write.
And I told her about this and she said if you write that book, I will publish it, and that that the interest was enough to spark me and get me moving. I think I started writing that night along the East Coast and then back to Portland, as I talk to people about what's happening in their lives, their opinions, about what's happening in the country, in the world, and honoring and respecting other people, regardless of whether they agree with me or don't.
I could feel something begin to open and I realized that this is an important book. This is an important movement, because I realized right away that this is not just here's the book. It's not just a book to read, but it's a movement to join. And if we can get thousands or even millions of people saying I'm going to be a depolarizing agent, I'm going to focus my attention on bringing people back together, if enough of us do that, then the solution will occur naturally and on its own.
So that's what I'm hoping this book will do is begin that conversation its own.
So that's what I'm hoping this book will do is begin that conversation. And what can? Is the book kind of like a companion guide where you follow along, Because obviously the book just came out. I have not had a chance to read it, but just in knowing it and hearing about it and learning about it from what I've read about you and knowing who you are, I can imagine it's like having that companion by your side.
It is. I love to write stories and when I thought about writing this as just a strict nonfiction how-to book, it didn't excite me. But when I was driving along the East Coast and then all the way back to Oregon in my van, I started having conversations with people and I realized that it's in the interactions where the magic happens. One example would be when I was in New Jersey, where you are now.
I was visiting probably my dearest friend, someone I've known for 30 years, someone who, if you ask anyone who knows her, they will tell you that she's the holiest, most loving person they've ever known. And yet in sitting down with her, I realized that she was a MAGA enthusiast and I was shocked by that. You can probably tell just from that that I am not a MAGA enthusiast. And because I love her so much, I listened to her.
I didn't immediately jump in and say how in the world could someone as loving as you and then go on. Instead, I just held still and held respect and listened to her perspective and realized that it's not about me agreeing with her, but it's about us holding space for the other to feel respected. Something that is so simple, something that we were all taught in kindergarten and yet seems to have been thrown out the window so often today.
So, with that story and many others, there was another case where I visited a couple of friends in Maine, two very dear friends, very spiritual people and they were asking the question this is right before the election, by the way when I was writing the book. So we didn't know what was going to happen. And my friend, bill, asked how would a sage vote? If a sage or an enlightened being were to step into the voting booth, how would they vote? And that was an interesting question.
And I think the answer is they would listen in the moment. They would not have all of the preconceived ideas and judgments, they would simply hold still and listen and follow the inspiration that they receive. So all of these interactions, whether they be people who agree with me or people who didn't agree with me, but we chose to listen to one another, to respect one another. I chose to say to my friend, for example I don't know, maybe all I know is I love you.
That was enough to open up the space, because the truth is, Hilary, and I'm sure you know this, I don't know and you don't know for sure. None of us know for sure anything. We have our beliefs, we have our opinions, and that's great. But I don't know for sure what needs to happen. Maybe there's something I'm going to learn from you that can help me go deeper.
All I know for sure is that there needs to be a foundation of love present, otherwise we go nowhere and it's such a simple formula, but it really works about how that very short dialogue and statement can diffuse a situation, and I felt it even though you weren't specifically talking to me in response to something I said, and I think that's the big distinction, isn't it? It's responding rather than reacting. Right. There's really something that there's a difference there.
And, look, I would imagine those listening and tuning in or even watching on YouTube. There are people in your life that you love, that do not agree with your beliefs on certain things, who you voted for. All of these things are going to come into your life and it's learning how to be okay, not having to be understood right and not being agreed with all the time. You know yeah, it's such a simple statement.
It really is so simple.
So simple. So where do you go with that Once you say that, and what if there is conflict? Like what if it's heated and that doesn't diffuse the situation?
Well, it may not always be diffused. I know that it's up to me and not you. It's not about me teaching someone else what they should do or say or how they should think. It's about me watching my own mind, noticing when I have polarizing thoughts or when I want to make someone wrong. Even if I know they are wrong, right Still. It's about respect and opening up a space of curiosity, to be curious. Well, how did you come to that belief?
What happened in your life that led you to believe that, if I can ask questions instead of reacting once again, responding instead of reacting a dialogue happens so often. There's no dialogue, there's just. I believe this and you believe that I'm right. Right, you're wrong. We either go like this or we go like that. We we fight or we separate, but we don't get anywhere.
And and what we need today is to move in a positive direction because, as we all know, we are moving in such a negative, such a divisive direction that it's becoming very, very dangerous for many, many people. And it's up to me, even in a situation like you mentioned, where it can become very difficult. I remember when I was driving out east to go on this tour, I stopped in Minneapolis, where my father lives, and spent a few days with him.
Well, it would be hard to be more different than my father and I in almost everything that we believe or any position that we hold, and it was hard. It was really hard for me to listen to him and his beliefs and I wanted to get in there and I wanted to teach him or to change him. To get in there and I wanted to teach him or to change him. But I thought, okay, if I'm going to do this, I need to begin where it's closest.
I need to begin with my own family, and that meant just listening to my father, appreciating my father and not trying to change him. You know he sits, you know, in his chair watching a certain news channel all day long, so it's no surprise that he would be. You know, all of these ideas would be filtered through his mind, so I have to have some compassion for that. Once again, it's about me doing the work, not expecting someone else to do the work.
If I'm going to be a depolarizing agent, it has to start and end in one place, which is my own mind and my own willingness to be curious about what you think.
Do you think that goes back to feeling unsafe? Oh sure, knowing that somebody so close to you you know a parent, you know that's the closest thing to you that they're feeling something that goes back to a feeling of safety.
Yeah, I think that's true, and in any disagreement is, if we all want to be right, we all want to think that that our position is the correct position, whether it is or whether it isn't. The thing that is frustrating to me, however, is when.
Okay, so I am an Episcopal priest, as you know, and so I take literally the things that Jesus asked us to do and the way he asked us to live, and so when people call themselves a Christian and they claim that, but do the exact opposite, that's frustrating to me. Now, the first thing I have to do is to realize that there is a shadow here that I'm not looking at. How do I do the opposite? How am I not willing to live this?
I know that when I have a strong reaction to something, there's a lesson for me, a healing for me. So that's always the first place. That's where we begin is what do I have to learn here?
If I'm being frustrated by people who claim one thing and do another, how am I doing that and how can I heal that first, so that when I encounter those people, I'm not going to have a reactionary opinion, I'm going to have a compassionate way of holding them, so that maybe we can come together in ways that would have been impossible before.
Yeah, so how did that resolve with dad?
Well, I just got off the phone with him right before the interview and it's good. Yeah, yes, we do avoid certain topics. That's what we sometimes have to do, and that's just so that we can remember that it's not about our opinions. It's about the fact that we love each other, and sometimes we have to be selective about what we share or the subjects that we cross, because if we're not careful we're going to get into dicey territory, where the work gets a little bit harder.
So when I talk to my father, I just remember that I love him and he loves me, and it doesn't matter if we agree or don't agree. We just need to hold that space and let that love expand so that the differences don't mean as much as we think they do.
I think there's a point where in this modern day and time, especially the digital age, we are overwhelmed with so much information. We're watching television, we're swiping our phones, we're going to hear opinions, whether they are far to the left or the right. Nothing too drastic to either side is good. But in that moment, where do we come back to center and say to ourselves first, it's okay that I don't know, I'm not in danger, I love this person and that's what matters most, right.
Exactly, that's what matters most.
Yeah, and the other thing is, I feel, going back to the digital age, there was a time when we didn't really talk about religion and politics like we do now, almost like we're opening our diaries and just everything's just coming out and it's like us versus them. You know, how do you deal with that as someone who is somebody that people come to in the spiritual and religious world? How do you approach that?
Well, I remember, first of all, that, in this time that we find ourselves in, we all live in very small echo chambers and everything we believe is echoing back at us, for example, in our social media.
It watches us and it sees what we click on to what we like, and then it keeps feeding that very thing to us, and when that happens, it reinforces this idea that I am right about my beliefs, because everyone else is telling me I'm right because of these algorithms, and so the pandemic of being right, you know, becomes like concrete. I must be right because the people that I listen to agree with me.
But the reason all these people agree with me is because it's getting filtered through my beliefs and it's keeping out anything that's different, anything that will give me a better, more inclusive view of what's going on, and sometimes that means seeking out or listening to some of the people or, you know, whether it be online or in broadcast, to the people.
That may not always give us the exact answer that we want, maybe a different perspective and to not necessarily agree with it, but to be open. Once again, I don't know, maybe I love you, to always keep that loving heart open so that I can hear, I can be curious, I can listen rather than attack when someone disagrees with me. I mean, we have become so polarized and this is why a movement is needed today. We have become so polarized and this is why a movement is needed today.
We need people who commit themselves to saying I want to be part of this. So what I suggest? Obviously you know. I hope people read the book, because I think it does have a lot of fun stories in it and ways that we can do that.
But, more important, I invite people to go to the website, which is de-polarizecom, where we're going to have trainings, we're going to have ways of people beginning to interact together so that we can really start a movement and not just have individuals, but to have some cohesive element where people can come together and work together and achieve what may seem impossible together Peace in a level that we can't even imagine right now.
So I just want to remind folks. Father James Twyman, you are an Episcopal priest. I do want to give you a give moment to just share that. But also, if you're interested in his book, it is called I don't know, maybe I love you and also we will drop information on your website that depolarized. Is that what it is? Depolarizedcom.
D-polarizedcom.
Okay, we'll put that in the notes as well, as well as a link to the book which just came out. What is your hope for this book Like? What is the true vision you see?
Good question. Yeah, I remember back in the day there was always so much focus on getting on the list, making sure you can put bestseller behind the title and a lot of that also. There was a certain keeping up with the Joneses. You know, you know all of the other authors and you want to make sure you're in sitting at the cool table in the high school cafeteria. That's almost what it's like. Luckily, I've given up on all of that. That's all gone.
Did that happen? Did giving up on it happen after you became a New York Times bestselling author? Easy to say, when you have that.
Maybe, maybe, good point. A friend of mine yesterday sent me an email. He said remember, this is not a sprint, it's a marathon. So it's not just about how many books you sell the first week, because if you're trying to get on, say, the New York Times best seller list, it's all about what you sell in a given week. So a lot of focus goes into that.
But really starting a movement, especially like this one, it's a slow process and I am much more interested in that than I am in just a quick flash in the pan. I'll be doing many more interviews like this one. I'll hopefully be speaking to many other people about this and hopefully the book is going to begin to get some attention, because the need is so great. I think everyone agrees with this, no matter what side we're on.
We've got to find a way to come together here or we're in big trouble, because if we keep moving in that you know, opposite direction, it's like a rubber band. The tension of the rubber band is greatest right before it snaps. Now here's the thing, Hilary, maybe it needs to snap, I don't know. Maybe I don't know, maybe Maybe something has to happen that's very dramatic in order to catch our attention.
Unfortunately, this is how human beings tend to operate it's only when we have to look at something that we actually do look at something. So this is why it helps me to stay open and let go of my judgment say about what's happening politically right now. It would be easy for me to say that's wrong, that shouldn't happen, but the truth is I don't know what needs to happen. I have my opinion, you have your opinion. We have whatever compassionate response know what needs to happen.
I have my opinion, you have your opinion. We have whatever compassionate response we believe needs to happen. But maybe something new and different is in store and maybe it will be brought about through some difficult happening.
I don't know, but I'm open to that and this book I think is is hopefully going to be part of a much larger awakening, a movement where people begin talking about this more and realizing that they can have an impact, that they can help change this from the inside out I will say, when this first came into my space, I was just taken by the title, because I saw the words I don't know, which many of us know, we don't know and we always question things, but it was the I
love you that really pulled me in, because it's the desire to want to feel accepted and validated and loved, right. So hopefully that title alone, before people even know what this is about, could make that shift, you know. So a question I have for you, and thank you for sharing everything you've shared so far. You have your Namaste Village down in Mexico.
You travel around the world, you play your music, the piece Trour I love that title, by the way and there's so many different sides to who you are. But how did the faith side come into your space when to make that powerful choice to become a priest? Where did that happen, and has it always been like that?
I think it's always been like that. I was raised in a very Catholic family and I can remember being a very young boy and being an altar boy and feeling something so deep that I cannot even speak about it. There was a resonance or a frequency that was vibrating and being raised the way I was, that just meant you were supposed to be a priest. So when I was 18, right after high school, I joined the Franciscans and I thought that was my path.
But I wasn't ready so I left, continued to live a very spiritual life, but it opened up. I began to get much more into metaphysical teachings and A Course in Miracles and go into unity churches, and it really expanded my horizon. However, at the same time I always did feel a resonance with what I'll call the mother church. From a Christian perspective, that would be my Catholic upbringing, or now the Episcopalian, which is so close to the Catholic. But I've also always been very interreligious.
So that started back in 1994 when a friend of mine gave me a sheet of paper that had the peace prayers from the 12 major religions of the world on them and I picked up my guitar and just began to play what I was hearing and within one hour, I put all 12 of the prayers to music and I knew from that moment on that this would form the foundation of my life.
I started being called the peace troubadour and traveling to countries that were at war or conflict and sharing these prayers in this concert, and so that opened up a whole nother realm. And then, of course, seven years ago seven and a half years ago founding this village in Mexico, namaste Village. That has been just a truly blessed thing. We have 40 houses or apartments. They're almost always full.
It's an inter-spiritual community, so we have people who are Buddhist, jewish, hindu, you name it. We got it all, so it makes it very unique. And yet here I am now, back in Portland, and I'm focusing more on my Franciscan calling. Many Episcopalians and Anglicans don't know that there are orders like the Franciscan order within the Episcopal Church as well.
So I'm a professed member of an Episcopal Franciscan order, because Francis, 800 years ago, encountered so many of the things we're talking about here today. He lived in a very polarized time and yet his voice and his call to simply live this and not use words, as much as the vibration. In fact, my favorite quote from Francis is when he said, our only job is to teach the gospel wherever we go, but only when necessary to use words. To me, that's what this is all about.
It's also what this book is about. It's about the frequency, the willingness to enter into every interaction with curiosity and openness, and maybe, if we do that, a new renaissance will be born. When Francis was alive 800 years ago, it was the end of the dark ages. Maybe this is the end of a dark age right now. Maybe we're coming into a time of great light.
As Francis inspired then, maybe we can inspire that today, where we look back at this time, even a few years from now, and say it's amazing how things have changed and how close together we are now.
Wouldn't that be something? Wouldn't that be something and just thinking about that from a perspective of curiosity. I don't know, maybe right, it just opens the mind to just thinking, taking it the positive way, where we're conditioned to go to the negative, it's easier. We have a lazy brain. It needs to feel safe and protected. That's how it does that.
But what if we are retraining our brain to go in the direction of curiosity and an inquisitive nature and the possibility that everything's going to be okay? but let's come from a space of, of nurturing and caring and peace and love, and you know you're going to have the people out there that are like this isn't Woodstock y'all, but why not? Why can like this isn't Woodstock y'all, but why not? Why can't it be a global Woodstock?
Why can't we do that with the informed state that we have and the education and going back to the most simplistic place of just being a human being? That's right, right. I think we've lost sight of that.
Oh yeah, you know, these are such simple ideas. Once again, we learned most of a force in the middle that says nope, this is where it's happening, this is the heart, this is where we can heal. We're not going to heal by asserting our rightness, because all that does is assert someone else's wrongness and we just get pushed further and further apart else's wrongness, and we just get pushed further and further apart. So it takes a committed group of people, even if it's a small group. Who is it?
Wasn't it Margaret Mead who said never think that a small, dedicated group of people can change the world? In fact, it's the only thing that ever has. Maybe that's what we need to just even have a small group of people who say I am committed to this. Here's something that's interesting that shows how quickly this can happen. That's what we need to just even have a small group of people who say I am committed to this. Here's something that's interesting that shows how quickly this can happen.
I mentioned St Francis of Assisi, who lived 800 years ago. And Francis, all he did was he didn't try and start an order or a movement, he just said I want to live this to the highest degree possible. That became magnetic and it began attracting first men to join him. And then, when Claire decided that she was going to leave probably the wealthiest, most noble family in Assisi and join women, began to be magnetized toward her. So the first order of Franciscans are the priests and brothers.
The second order are what they call the poor Clares, the order that Claire started. But then there was the third order. Francis started an order of laypeople who wanted to be able to live this according to their own life, you know, with families and jobs, but to somehow live this in an authentic way. One of the things that they had to commit to was that they would never bear arms.
Right by the time Francis died, a quarter of all of Europe were third order Franciscans, a quarter within 20 years, maybe less. Right To the point that the feudal system which was always warring kingdom against kingdom, city against city, fell apart because they could no longer raise an army because there were so many people who had taken vows of nonviolence.
So if we can do the same, if we can all take the vows of depolarization and say I am going to be an active depolarizer, maybe the same thing can happen where. It's not that we're trying to change things. The structure just falls apart because the support, the foundation of it all, is no longer there.
Maybe that could happen in our own lifetime. Do you think world peace is possible?
that's a good question. We could talk about that a lot, but what I'll say? If we want to get metaphysical and I know that's a lot of what your show is all about the answer would be no, because this, this world, is where we work stuff out. Okay, this is where we do the work of depolarization, of unification, and we live in a dualistic world where it's this and that right, and in the world of this and that, there is always going to be conflict.
There's going to be my needs over your needs, your interest over my interest, and people trying to be powerful hold on to their power, and this will always lead to conflict. Now, is it possible that there is a shift that is so far beyond our imagination? That could happen? Yeah, the way this world is established.
now I believe that there is a world beyond this one.
So I'm a student of A Course in Miracles and there's a lesson there that says beyond this world is a world that I want. Okay, so beyond the world of separation, beyond the world of duality, there is an experience that I can access right now that has nothing to do with this world. So will there ever be a time when there are no wars, no conflicts?
Probably not, but there can be that in my mind.
In my experience, and if enough of us share that, who knows? Maybe I don't know I love you. I think I just like hearing that you're going to end everything with that you know, every time I've given a talk on this that's really what convinced me to write the book is every time I've given a talk, it sticks. People walk away and I'll overhear a conversation two days later and they'll go. Oh I don't know, maybe I love you Like wow, they're integrating it in a playful way.
Maybe that's what we need is more playfulness.
Maybe we need more playfulness. I love that you say that. What if there's more play in our lives and we go back to remembering that the child part of ourselves that could, you know, just enjoy being on the playground with other children rather than really putting all the stuff that we've learned over the years that has created a lot of unrest and disease really right, wouldn't that be nice. Wouldn't that be nice. It's possible, but it's really up to each and every one of us ourselves, right?
I don't know, maybe I love you Yep. That's why we need a movement. So, once again, I hope people will go to the website and get enlisted in this movement, because I think that if enough of us, if even that small enough of us, if even that small group of truly committed people can activate this, I think it could change the world.
Yeah, and going back to children, is this a book? I mean, can you see yourself writing a children's version of this?
You know that's an interesting idea. I've never thought of that. If the book starts to take off, I think I will and you can say you planted the idea in my head. I would love to see that happen?
I really do. I think that would be amazing. Yes, so before I let you go, if you don't mind, I'd love to play a little game with you that. I do with my guests, it's what I call brain candy Basically with my guests. It's what I call brain candy, basically word association. Okay, and these are words that you've said during this conversation. Here we go love, no disagreement oh well. Curiosity.
Yes.
Safety.
Good.
Movement.
Essential.
Peace, music, delight, deep polarized. You're good at this Namaste. Can we just end there? I like that. I like that. Maybe one, one more, but it's going to be a statement, I don't know maybe I love you. Let's do this let's do this absolutely. What a joy to have you here.
Uh, you are a light and a gift, and I would love to see everything that you want for this book and this world to happen, because I'm on it too, and I just want to say I really appreciate you, but is there something that you'd like to leave with those who are tuning in to HIListically Speaking?
Yes, be courageous and be curious. We can do this together if each one of us makes the commitment to be the change that we want to see in the world. We can't expect it to happen out here until it happens in here and in here. But it takes courage. It's going to mean stepping away from our comfort zone, but in a way that can heal, in a way that can unify. So, once again, be courageous, be curious and let's do this together.
Let's do this. Thank you, let's do this. Thank you. I don't know, maybe I love you. If you are going to put one book into your library right now, this is it. The link to grab it is in the notes of this podcast episode with James Twyman, and you can also find more on his movement at d-polarizecom. All of that is in the notes of this podcast, so take a look and get in touch and if this episode has touch, moved and inspired you in any way and I imagine it has pay it forward.
Share the love, share the movement and bring more eyes and ears to this conversation so that we can make a difference, and let me know that you're tuning in and what you think about this episode. Leave a thoughtful response. I read every single one of your kind words and I am so grateful. HIListically Speaking is edited by 2 Market Media with music by Lipbone Redding and supported by you. I'm so grateful that you join me week after week and, as James shared on this show during this conversation.
We don't have all the answers, do we, but we do have a responsibility to create the space of curiosity. I don't know, maybe I love you. And, on that note, I do love you. I'm leaving you and I'm sending hugs your way. Be well, okay, that's it. Be well, okay, that's it.