99% we feel of body image spikes are related to something relational, whether it's, you know, a micro moment or a bigger moment. Am I going to belong at this party or feel good about you know, this date? So as we start to track these things, the sensations that we feel in our body because our nervous system is reacting to our experience both with feelings and sensations it can go so quickly from something I feel in my body to something I feel about my body.
I had one of those days when every mirror I passed felt like I was looking at the enemy, no matter what I did, no matter who told me I looked great. And let me tell you, chris is great about doing that. He's always saying you look beautiful, you look lovely. But when we don't believe it ourselves, no matter how much black we wear to slim ourselves, I saw the fat kid. I saw the fat kid and it didn't matter, right. Have you had days like that? I imagine you have. It's natural.
But I will say this those days do happen less and less, because I've learned how to build a healthy relationship with my body. And that really got me thinking about a topic that comes up often. Probably you've had these conversations too, with friends, with family. I hear it all the time. What if your body's story held a key to deeper healing? What if the way we see ourselves isn't just about mirrors and measurements, but about connection and curiosity and self-compassion? How about that?
Today we're diving into the complex world of body image. I know it might be a little unsettling, but it's important that we have these conversations how it's shaped us, how it holds us back and how we can transform that relationship with self. I couldn't ask for a better guest to explore this topic Deb Schachter. She's a therapist and she's Boston's leading clinician in body image and eating disorder recovery.
Deb, you've been helping people unpack their body story for years the struggles, the resilience and the wisdom that it holds for three decades and I love this book that you have, that you co-wrote with your dear friend Whitney and we're going to talk about Whitney too and the fact that you bring in love and humor and mindfulness and curiosity and self-compassion.
All the fact that you bring in love and humor and mindfulness and curiosity and self-compassion, all the things that you have created in this body self-approach. We're digging in. Let's go there Awesome. Where do you want to start? Let me see, I believe I was about five years old. No, oh, this isn't a session, never mind, just kidding.
Well, I actually had one thought when you were talking about, um, something like don't worry, this isn't going to be too bad or something. And we that's how we always start our workshops. We've been running workshops together for over 20 years and we always start by saying don't worry, we're not going to make you dance like a leaf, we're not going to make you stand in front of a mirror naked and name your favorite body part.
We're going to do this in a way that feels interesting and funny and creative, where people can't believe there could be something creative about this process, because it's actually turning our body image inside out and really getting to know it and really developing our relationship with our body image. So that's very different than trying to change the way you think about your body.
That's a really good way of putting it to like building the relationship. I'm constantly saying that it's not about getting rid of a feeling, it's not about disliking a part of yourself. It's really about loving all parts right, and we talk about parts work, obviously, in the work that we do, but when it really comes to all 2000 parts of our body right and that includes every year that we're on this planet there are going to be things that we like and dislike about ourselves.
But it's the same thing as having a relationship with someone else. You might not love everything about that person, but you still have a relationship with that person. So why are we not starting thinking about that way about ourselves?
Exactly, and most people don't even realize that they can have a relationship with their body image, that there is space between us and our body image. Most people just think we're one in the same right and how we feel about ourselves is how we look, and getting space in there is really what Whitney and I are all about.
I always describe it as sort of getting the jaws of life in between you and your body image and starting to create more of a dialogue, because there actually is so much information in there and, as you said, the negative body image is important as the positive body image. Learning more about why our body image is spiking is where the gold is, so we really want to get people to start to bring that curiosity so we can start to unpack what's actually in there rather than try and override it.
You've been doing this for a long time. You know I mentioned and I think I even read that you've been doing this for about 30 years, being a therapist but also focusing on this area. Can we go back to where this all started, Like, how did you decide this would be your focus? How did Whitney come into the story?
And I want to talk about Whitney too, because she's not here, but you both wrote this amazing book, had this program, but there's a story behind that and I'd love to unpack that for those tuning in.
It's actually really related to what we're talking to. So I mean, I always say I started, I became a therapist before I knew I was a therapist. When I was a young kid I was obsessed with people like Harriet Tubman and Annie Sullivan, who was Helen Keller's teacher. I just thought this idea of working on the healing modalities was just the coolest thing from the time.
I was very small, I didn't really realize what therapy was until I started therapy in my 20s, which is actually when I had an eating disorder myself. So I started therapy and then I ended up going to grad school and when I got out I really was working with all kinds of different folks. But really this both the issue obviously of eating disorders was interesting to me and there wasn't a lot that was being talked about body, about body image.
So for those first few years I was kind of winging it and figuring it out as I went. And then Whitney happened to reach out. She was newly a graduate herself and was really interested in kind of the work that I was doing. At that point I had developed a practice and was running groups and we met. She had just come off being in the Olympics herself as a rower had an eating disorder in that process herself, which makes sense. She was a lightweight and there's so much pressure around body size.
And we met and became fast friends and bonding over all kinds of things, but started talking about body image in a way that we didn't plan on, but it just happened and what we started to discover was A what it's like to be able to really be open about what's happening there without someone else, either like you said, oh you look beautiful, or that's silly, or you know but just really bringing a huge amount of curiosity and compassion to the experience.
And when we did that, we realized there's so much more that's happening that affects our body image than we have any idea, because we started to track for each other oh, when I'm in this situation, my body image is spiking and started to again. Then bring that curiosity. Whoa, that's fascinating. I just had dinner with my dad and it was really hard and I came home and all I could think about was how huge my belly felt in my jeans.
You know there's reasons that this stuff is so connected, and so the more that we can learn to decode that and understand all of the ways that these things inform one another. It's a totally different ballgame. So we started running workshops over 20 years ago.
They were small, they were in, you know, gym basements and yoga studios and ultimately we they got bigger and we um, you know, kept running them, started running them even for clinicians, and then we decided at the you know, beginning of 2019 to write a book, because we felt like the layout of the workshop really led itself to be a perfect kind of um flow for a workbook. So, even though it's a smaller book, it's not just a workbook.
It actually has exercises to really do what I'm talking about all this breaking it down and translating really giving people those tools.
I love that, so it's like a companion, if you can't attend the workshop. It's the pocket companion that you can take with you, and those are good things to look back on. You know, and have that available to you. If you can't attend the workshop, or even if you you know financials as well if you can't afford a workshop, If you can't have Deb and Whitney with you 24-7, you can have them poking in your ear saying, hey, Right.
Totally, and so much of the book is really anecdotal about clients, so that people really I mean that's so much of what I do in my practice too is the more you know we have so much shame about this topic, even though everybody's taking in the same messages, we all feel like it shouldn't bother us, which is a crazy conundrum.
So to share the stories of you know these different folks and and how compelling their story is of why they're, how their body image stepped in to try and help which is really the language we use that our body image is really more of like a hero or a heroine trying to help us manage something we don't know how else to manage. So giving those anecdotes and you're like, oh gosh, that makes so much sense.
She had this ill sibling and you know she wanted to just keep herself really together, so her parents didn't worry about her and that ended up going into its own direction. You know, those are the kinds of things that we really need to understand more and give voice to.
And the connection like everything you're saying is connection. We don't do anything alone. And I think when we hear I know, when I read books and as I'm in the process of finishing mine, I love adding the antidotes. I love reading the antidotes because it reminds us we're not alone in the battle.
A thousand percent.
Even be my own antidotes, even be your own as the authors of the book. It's like you're human, we're going through it. We're not just teaching and telling, we're also sharing as human beings, sisters, basically.
Whit and I actually, in the introduction, tell our story, kind of the one I just told, and we each had a name. This was before we knew anything about internal family systems or parts work, but we each had a name. I mean we had many names, but for each other I'm sorry for ourselves that we shared with the other.
So Whitney's was fat temp because she was after the Olympics, you know, in some basement at Harvard where she needed to be after leaving the Olympics, going through divorce, and just needed something that had a steady paycheck that she could count on. But she felt so out of shape because she had been in this epic experience. Also was temping, which didn't feel very fancy after you know a very impressive career.
And I was crazy raisin because I was 33 and dating and miserable and had just broken up with someone of many years and felt like I was going on these dates on it. It was just when internet dating was starting to be a big thing. So I felt crazy and I felt like I was shriveling up because I grew up in California and all of a sudden I have these lines on my face. So all of my worries about?
All of a sudden I'm getting too old, so so fat temp and crazy raisin we talk about with like so much love and endearment now.
Yeah, and that's the humor, right. I mean we say these silly things like in the moment it sucked with a capital S, but as we move through it and we look back on some of the things we really were upset about or were hurt about, and it doesn't take away the upset, it certainly is not demeaning or lessening someone's upsets or traumas, but when we look back on those things, I think that's where the humor is such an important part of the healing.
It's sort of the humanity the humor and the humanity Like, oh God, this poor woman, whatever her experience, is sitting on the floor sobbing over 20 pairs of jeans. It's about so much more than the jeans, right?
It also sounds like the name of a band Fat Temp and the Crazy Raisins.
Oh my God, I love that, and I know Whitney will too. That's great, I love it.
I think about that myself and I've shared this many times on HIListically Speaking, that when I was 14 years old 13, 14, around that time I actually dealt with some serious like weight issues and I know back then I didn't know why, you know the control, why am I, why am I going to that direction? But I actually went to a weight loss camp and affectionately we called it fat camp, right.
And then there was a TV show that came out, a reality show I don't know like 10, 15 years ago, called Fat Camp, and it wound up being my Fat Camp. It was my camp, it was the one where I stayed, yeah, and there were many of those back in the 80s, right, there were tons of those camps and they've grown in a way where they're more of a health and wellness facility and camp rather than just eat a piece of toast with cottage cheese and blueberries and call it a day.
So finding the humor in it is important. But as we get older, as we learn, as we have skills, as we get more in touch with ourselves, I think there's that element and you and I talked about this before of that nervous system regulation, knowing what's showing up when the body is is talking to you and are you truly listening? Right, yeah, and so can we. Can we touch on that a little bit?
Absolutely. I guess the first thing that comes to mind I'm going to bridge it a little bit, if that's okay is that one of one of our early tools is really looking at what we call a rotary. We live in Boston so we have these crazy rotaries that go round and round. So we talk about this idea that if we start, you know, we label and really get clear about what might've triggered our experience.
So if I use that example from before, you know having dinner maybe with a parent that that was really difficult. We start with that experience and we can actually help people track what their rotary looks like. So, have a big experience, have big feelings very quickly that can move into. I don't feel good about my body and these are all the things I'm going to do to fix it.
So we're really moving around the rotary and when you do that with people, they're so blown away because they all have their own unique rotaries, even though there's so much universality to that. So to bring that into what you were asking, so often what happens is when we have a relational experience I mean 99%.
We feel of eating disorder, of body image spikes are related to something relational, whether it's a micro moment or a bigger moment, am I going to belong at this party or feel good about this date? So as we start to track these things, the sensations that we feel in our body because our nervous system is reacting to our experience both with feelings and sensations it can go so quickly from something I feel in my body to something I feel about my body.
So when people often say things like I literally feel like I'm gaining weight sitting here talking to you, my fat, my fingers look bigger, my, you know butt is spreading on the chair, whatever it is, that's likely something really emotional that's getting expressed through those sensations and because we obviously all get these messages about our bodies not being right and that they need to be fixed, it becomes this really compelling way to try and manage that overwhelm of emotions and
sensations. So that's my, that's my bridge. I hope that makes sense.
Perfect, yeah, yeah, and you know, I think it's really being aware of those sensations right, because you know, in the nervous system you're having the autonomic, the somatic, the, the emotional and the cognitive side of things, right. So being aware of where it's coming from and showing up for you is important because, yeah, you can sit there and be like, oh my God, I'm so bloated, I shouldn't have had that piece of cake. It's not the cake, right? Why are we making the cake? The enemy?
Totally Well, because it gives us something to focus on and blame something going right. And something we can fix. Right, Right, I mean, I just had this conversation with somebody yesterday and we were saying what if what's happening in the body is really this information that we need to be able to do whatever we want to do next? And what if we can slow that down enough to really translate it?
So in our book, really starting to look at the words that people use, because they're really the words for the nervous system, right, so it could be buzzy, it could be tingly, it could be droopy, it could be scratchy that when you get people to start to actually describe my belly, my bloated belly feels like do, do, do, do, do.
And this is where this is one of my favorite things is starting to see how these descriptors actually relate to other contexts in their life that they may not even realize which is really cool.
Can.
I give you an example.
Yeah, please do.
Because sometimes I think examples are helpful. So I run a group for women over 40 and one of the women in the group I think you'll relate to this, I think based on your age reference, but she was talking about being 14 or whatever, 14, 15, and wanting to look a certain way in her Sassoon jeans, which just made me go you just dated us I know exactly I was like. I think I remember those.
They were related to the hair products, I don't even know, anyway, but she was talking about how she just wanted her body to look the same and I was like, well, what does that mean? So she was describing she kept going with her arms, like you know, like a column, like I want. I don't want there to be any difference, I want it to be one long line. And then I asked her what else was happening in your life at that time?
And that was right, when her mom, who was already quite mentally ill, really got dysregulated and her dad had to come in and actually remove her from the home. So if you think about the language she's kept saying, I just want my body to look the same, I just want all the lines to look the same. And I asked her so when you hear about the same versus different, and what did you want to be the same? And she thought, oh my God, like I just went through the biggest change in my life.
That was terrifying. So if we think about that language the same and change starting to get people thinking about what words they're using, and especially when it, when it does line up with these events in our lives that feel so profound, yeah, okay, so we're talking about the book as well as part of your process, and I really want to mention it because we haven't done it so much.
Show it up too. So it's body image inside out, a revolutionary approach to body image healing, with Deb Schachter and her coauthor and very dear friend, whitney Otto, who is a former Olympic athlete.
It's a softback and we've got all kinds of like exercises and things you can do, love that.
So it is kind of a workbook and a book.
Absolutely Love that you can read it either way, you can read it for content. But if you want to do the exercises and we always say, do which ones feel resonate for you we have like mad libs where you're kind of like filling in, like if my body were blah, blah, blah, then I would feel more blah, blah, blah. Now you're really dating us. Sorry, I know I am. So we've thrown out Sassoon, we've thrown out mad libs.
And then, at the end of this, we're going to have a contest to say how old are both of us Exactly? I love my Gen X self Exactly Speaking about that, you know you're. You said women over 40. So we're talking about people who are perimenopause, menopausal post. You know where are you seeing that?
as most of your, the people that are picking up this book, or I'd say no, although you know, I think that's a really important audience and we actually, in the podcasts that we've been doing, we got so many requests from particularly dietitians who work with that age group, because that is an age where our body obviously maybe change, is changing in a variety of ways that don't make sense to us, and so I think that can really lend itself to having that important conversation about again what's
happening in our life and how that affects how we see ourselves, especially when our bodies are actually changing, whatever that may be, whether it's weight and size or hot flashes or whatever it is. So, yes, yes, yes, that's a great population, but really one of my favorite things about this book is anybody can read it. We all have feeling, we all have bodies and we all have feelings about them, and we have so few places to know how to talk about them in productive ways.
So when we started, when I started to tell people about the book like I was getting my teeth cleaned by my dentist who's, you know, he's probably in his sixties and he was like, is it weird that I want to read the book? Like is that? And I was like that's awesome. And when we actually did a very early taping for our taping that's dating me to some video for for an Instagram post.
Whitney has actually has her own podcast with another Olympic athlete called Untrained, and we were using her producer and in the middle of our thing he said can I talk about? When I went to LL Bean yesterday and I had to buy the bigger shorts and they were felt like a tent but the smaller ones were too tight and it was so awesome. We were like, please, can we talk about your shorts? This is the work. So everybody wants to talk about this. They just don't know how.
That's such a good way of putting it. Everyone wants to talk about it, but they don't know how. There is no one out there that probably doesn't struggle in some capacity with their body image, even an Olympic athlete at the best form that they are.
I was just watching something the other day with somebody who was a pageant, you know, in Miss USA, and a lot of times I think we think that's the group that's going to be suffering the most, like, oh, the supermodels have to eat a carrot a day, or, you know, those who are Olympic athletes are on a very strict diet. But it's like we're human and it's not just. I don't think anymore. I think we are now well, not that yes, we're still human.
What I mean is I don't think it's only about the outside anymore. I think people are really in touch with what it means to live well, optimally, holistically, whatever the term is you want to use. People are more in alignment with that longevity. So a book like this is also tapping into that side of things. Like you have to be able to have a good image of who you are and why, and how you're showing up in this world and how you want to live well.
But if you're not in a good relationship with yourself.
You're just going to keep having that same cyclical conversation and putting yourself down exactly, exactly, and that's why we use the rotary, because we do a second rotary where we bring in our tools. We have sort of three muscles which are mindful awareness, curiosity and compassion.
Those are kind of the body image inside out muscles, and from there we really build that out so that when you get to these moments where these spikes happen, you can actually start to decode it and ultimately be more connected to yourself. And that's really Whitney's a coach, actually she's an executive coach, and so she used it, brought in the word resourcing, which I think is wonderful.
It's like if we can decode what our body image is saying, then we can start to really figure out what we actually need. So that could be anything, that could be a big fat. No, because we don't want to go to the you know, whatever it is PTA event or it might be. I need more of something, more more quiet, more stillness, more nature, more connection. So even something as simple as my arms are should be more toned or something can actually get us to. I need more boundaries.
That's just not always physical.
Yeah, it's totally not, and it's why I love, love. We talk a lot about jealousy and idealization, and if we can start to lean into some of those things and actually again, rather than you shouldn't be jealous, you're fabulous, but really think who are you jealous of and why? Then you can start to really figure out what is it about their butt or their arms or their you know thighs that that make their life the way it is. What is it about their life?
And you imagine that body gives them that you actually really want, and it's so often ease, connection, joy, and that's what we want to help people work on.
Yeah, that's great. Love that so much. And just for those, as a reminder, deb has this amazing book she's co-authored with a dear friend called Body Image Inside Out. This is a really wonderful companion to have. There you go. You're so good at the Vanna White. It's a great book to have. And do you have an audio version?
We don't, yet we're working on it. We're working on it we just got asked to have it translated in Lebanese though, which I'm so pumped about. I feel so honored. But we're working on that, and we do do workshops right.
We're most focused right now on a big workshop we're going to be doing in the early fall for clinicians and anybody who works with body image, so that could be personal trainers, uh, you know, physical therapists, teachers, doctors, um therapists, nutritionists, that kind of thing, and then we're I'm sure we'll be doing more also um in-person and virtual workshops as well.
And we'll put all of that in the podcast notes how to get in touch with you and Whitney, how to grab this book All of that will be in the notes of this podcast episode. So, and if you're touched, moved and inspired by this conversation, if this is something that resonates with you or you're like, oh, I know somebody who could really use this conversation, pay it forward, y'all, like, pay it forward, share it. Yeah, that's my little Southern.
I live down South for a while, so I have not gotten rid of the y'all. But you know, pay it forward, share it. This is a collective, it's a community effort what we're doing here on this planet. So do that. And then, you know, pick up the book. So there'll be a lot of opportunities to see how you can bring this into your life. And, you know, making one change can make a difference, one small change making one change can make a difference, one small change.
You don't have to do it all, you don't have to do the mad libs, you don't have to do any of the exercises. You can read it, you can jump around, right, it's a book, you can jump around Totally.
You can read what resonates for you. But I always say to people if you want to do one thing, which is really at the core of our work, it's just starting to notice when your body image gets louder. So it's going from I look like shit today. I hate the way I look. I'm so fill in the blank to wow. My body image is really loud today. The things I'm saying to myself are really nasty.
That's a huge jump and a real opportunity to start to practice, just starting to track your body image and really start to think of it, almost like you're tracking the weather, and start to move one step away from your body image. So that's what I always give when I give one nugget, that's the one.
That's a good one too, because negative self talk is so big. I mean, look our brains. As you know, as a therapist and being in the space as well, the brain loves to go to the negative. It is a negative Nelly. That's what keeps us alive and safe. So if we can just make one small change on how we're talking to ourselves like I hate my body, I feel fat too I'm working on making a positive change in the right direction. That in itself has the same outcome, just a different message.
Yeah, totally, and just saying, wow, it's really loud today. My body image is loud today. That is very different. Yeah, and accepting it. I love that. The, the, it's very loud today, it's just being aware and yeah, definitely.
So where would you like to see things go with this book, with the whole idea?
of what you're doing Like what's?
what's your view on how you see things going forward?
Oh, I love that, so I think our fantasy would be. I don't know if you know Dr Becky. She's a great parenting coach.
Do you?
know her at all. I do not. Oh my gosh, you got to check her out. She's amazing, she's wonderful. She just has these great nuggets that are just so accessible. So she's really taught. She's really taught the different, a different language for how you relate to your kids. Very similar, lots of curiosity. So for us it's the same thing. It's like what if, when you go to the doctor and you were to say my body image is really loud and they'd say so, what's going on in your life?
Why do you think that might be Like people starting to to share that perspective? That body image has a much greater function and that negative body image is I kind of describe it like an indicator light on our car, like you know windshield, wiper, fluid and low battery charge that it's just an indicator light that something else is happening.
So if we could have that in more settings teachers, pts you know so many people that come face to face with this and don't know how to respond so that people have more skillful ways to say that's usually a sign that something else is happening in your life. I wonder what that might be.
Maybe that's something you can work on, whether it's in your own therapy or journal or whatever, but starting to really build a practice of noticing when your body image gets louder and really trusting and believing, just like a headache, that it's trying to tell you something but there's something else that's that's bumping it up and that that's an opportunity to to lean in.
Love that Okay.
Teachers. I would love it to be more in schools. We're really trying to get it to counselors at schools, places where this stuff is popping up everywhere.
There is always room for improvement and growth, right For sure. Tree never stops growing. Why should we? So? Yeah, I love that, so is there anything else you want to share that we haven't covered, because I'm going to play a little game with you, but I want to give you an opportunity that maybe I haven't tapped on, something that you'd really like to hit.
The only other thing I guess I would say is that the biggest aha in the book was chapter five. So we chapter four is was this notion of we carry our stories in our bodies, as you were just describing our body image is the longest relationship. I'm sorry. Our body is the longest relationship we'll ever have, right? The? longest relationship we'll ever have is with our own body. So we, you know we're writing all about how it holds our story and all this like somatic stuff.
And somewhere in the middle I texted Whitney and I was like, oh my God, chapter four is going to have a baby. It's definitely another chapter coming through and it's become really the seminal workshop. Chapter. Workshop kind of focus is this idea that body image and relationships there's a huge interplay there, that that's really everything.
So really empowering people to get curious about what happens in our body image, in relationships, both historically in terms of how we were mirrored, what was reflected back to us, maybe not even related to our body image, but what we took in when we were young, about who we were, what we were capable of, what our strengths and weaknesses were, what we might be needed to be more of or less of, to stay connected, as you said, survival, and then how that can also inform, ultimately inform how we
see our bodies and how changing our bodies becomes a tempting way to stay more connected and, ultimately, to really notice. In the moment when you leave, like what you were saying, I feel like all of a sudden my stomach's so bloated when we leave, an experience where, all of a sudden, we're focused on our body. Why do I? What do I feel so full of? What am I really holding inside?
Maybe it's unexpressed anger, maybe it's hurt, you know, really starting to track the interplay between our relationships, both historically and in current day, and really notice how that affects our body image, cause that's ultimately I we really believe, that's that's where all the gold is, is in that interplay.
Love that. How difficult was it to write a book with someone else? Like, how did you divide those duties with Whitney?
Oh, it's such a great question. We both feel so unclear about how any of this happened. At this point we're both our heads are still spinning. But what was so cool, honestly, was that so much of the nature of it, the flow of it made sense, but we learned so much more about what we knew as we wrote, so we really wrote most of it together, about what we knew as we wrote, so we really wrote most of it together. I mean, there were truly, I think maybe hundreds of iterations of edits.
Whitney's husband is actually a CBT expert and author, so he was amazing. My husband is a scientist but an excellent punctuation master, so we had lots of eyes on it. But really the actual content more. I think the coolest part was that all these things came out that we didn't know existed, and how to say, how do you decode, but how do you actually break that down in an exercise. But it really was very collaborative. We did very little.
I mean we did a lot independently once it was down, but all the editing, but really we wrote it together and Whitney really brought in this beautiful piece at the end around the resourcing, I think we didn't know exactly where we'd land and it ultimately was like what do you do now that you have all this information? And those last couple chapters are really her swan song. They're beautiful and really using a lot of different tactics to get more.
How do we learn how to resonate and what resonates for our body? And, as Mary Oliver says, let the soft animal body which we always love, love what it loves. You know, how do we really let our animal body inside kind of lead us to what our truth is? So, um, anyway. So we really it was very collaborative, um, not always easy, but very collaborative in terms of really what we wanted to bring to the world.
Yeah, to work well together. It was meant to be. I love that about the soft body inside. Yeah, isn't that beautiful. Let love that about the soft body inside. Yeah, isn't that beautiful. Let the let the soft animal body of your, let the soft animal body love what it loves. I love that quote. Yeah, so like I felt that, like I'm like, yeah, like really giving it some nurturing. How often do we nurture ourselves?
Look that I mean it's that's part of the work I do is the self nurturing approach when I'm working as a havening practitioner, but it makes I'm like thinking about that so helpful when you can say oh, I feel this, so what do I need?
what needs nurturing? What?
needs. I feel so depleted.
After you know this really hard day at work where I'd have fire 10 people or something. What do I need? What do I need to take in? What do I need? Maybe it's to just release whatever.
So yeah, yeah, learning.
That is so pretty.
I love that. That's a great way to to lead into the next thing, but actually that's a good way to close this. But I still got something for you. Um, I play a little game with my guests called Brain Candy. It is a rapid fire game, meaning that I've been writing down words that Deb has been saying during this conversation. I'm going to throw one word out at you that you said. I want you to come back and say the first word that comes to mind.
A little word, sort of like free association. Yeah, exactly what it is.
It's a word association game, so I'll throw the word out. You come back, have a little brain candy fun, you ready.
Okay, I'm ready. Okay, here we go. Self-talk, self-listen, compassion, softness, resilience.
Breath. Relationship To Regulation. Relationship Two Regulation Rhythm, mindfulness, spaciousness, resourcing, listening, body Image Two words I know.
Inside out Body Self.
Multidimensional. Oh, I like that. Yeah, it definitely is. And since body self was one word.
That was what we originally called ourselves before the body image inside out. So we realized that was a verb to turn our body inside out. We were the body self. Which is this idea that it's such a multi-dimensional experience of body image that there are all these dimensions happening in there.
It's not just, you know, screen or billboard or tv I have one more that I'm gonna throw out at you.
It's two words okay, because we got to end with a little humor oh gosh okay um, crazy raisin.
Hmm, fat temp.
Like you go right, you're throwing it back to whitney yeah, crazy raisin, and also, I would say, I guess, compassion. God bless her 32 year old heart if I could tell her, you know, 25 years later she was gonna write a book yeah what would you tell yourself?
what would you tell yourself, deb? You're gonna get me to cry now, then my work here is done.
That's what I say all the time. You're going to write a book about crazy raising. You're going to write a book about how scary it is to be single at 32 and all your friends are dating and you're actually going to make it to 41 and still be single, and then you're going to meet this amazing human. So it's all going to be okay.
That checks all the T's and the I's Exactly. Oh, I love that. That's so great. Thank you so much for being here. Is there anything that you would want to share with those who are tuning in?
God, I think you covered it so beautifully. I feel so lucky. I feel like one of the challenges in this is sort of some of it can feel, you know, like you're sort of saying the same things over and over, and I feel like the way you ask questions today was just really fantastic and really got us talking about a lot of things that I don't get to talk about as much. So I really appreciate your, your lens on all of it. So I think I think we covered it.
I appreciate that I always say and people who tune into the show know that I feel like every person I have on this show is like a masterclass for me too.
You know, I don't know everything Right.
And so I sit here with amazing guests like yourself and I think, gosh, I just want to hang with her. I gotcha, I gotta get up to Boston. Yeah, totally, it's a conversation more than anything. We're human beings. We have to have these open conversations and I'm really glad you felt that way.
But you asked great questions. You really did Thank you so much.
My pleasure, pleasure having you here. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
All right, my friend, if you find that this conversation has been helpful, if you know somebody who might find it valuable, consider paying it forward, passing it along. You know, do yourself a favor, make sure that you are downloading HIListically Speaking, so that you have these episodes when you need them the most. Pay it forward, leave a rating, a review. It's always appreciated. And you know I'm going to connect you with Deb.
So I promise you that if you are interested in getting in touch with her or connecting with her, or even grabbing the book Body Image Inside Out, a book that she co-wrote with her dear friend and former Olympian, Whitney Otto, I'm going to put that all in the notes of this podcast so you don't have to search for it. You can just click the button, grab the book, get in touch with her, follow her and make that connection right, because it's all about connection.
We also talked about self-regulation during this conversation, and you know that is my jam, so I want you to check out one of my Havening Happy Hours. Come and join me live online. I do these every month. It's a chance to self-regulate and self-soothe, for self-care, with self-havening and neuroscience on your side. I welcome you and I would love to see you there, and I think the best way to close this is to mention part of that poem by Mary Oliver that Deb mentioned.
It's called Wild Geese, and I leave you with this. You don't have to be good, you don't have to walk on your knees for hundreds of miles through the desert, repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. How about that? So, on that note, know that I love you, I believe in you and I'm sending hugs, your mountains in her eyes.