0:00:04.5 BROOM: In Cheryl Broom, CEO of Graduate Communications, the Higher Education Coffee and Conversation podcast is dedicated to exploring issues of importance to staff and faculty who work at community colleges and universities. My guest is one of the most kind, caring and dedicated higher education professionals. I've had the pleasure to know Dr. Gustavo Chamorro for years. He fled Nicaragua with his brother when he was only 14 years old, his journey took him through Central America, Mexico, and ultimately across the US border. When he arrived in the US without a dollar to his name, he worked odd jobs until he met a community college counselor whose guidance put him on a path to serve others through education. Today, Dr. Tomorrow is the Orange County Director of the Los Angeles Orange County Regional Consortium, an organization of 29 community college institutions that serves as a framework to communicate, collaborate and plan career and technical education and workforce economic development in Southern California. Dr. Tomorrow shares his incredible journey to the United States, what it was like as a non-native English speaker attending community college, and the work he does now to help colleges guide students to success. His story is a story of success and also an amazing example of the power of relationships.
0:01:30.1 BROOM: Alright, Gustavo, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have you on a podcast...
0:01:36.0 CHAMORRO: Thank you, Cheryl. And thank you for inviting me.
0:01:38.2 BROOM: You have such an incredible story, and I usually start out the podcast by asking guests to tell me about their careers at community college, and I wanted to start off our conversation by asking you to share your entire story from growing up as a young boy and how you came to the United States to where you are now.
0:02:01.3 CHAMORRO: It is kind of a long story. It actually started in Nicaragua, Central America, and that's where I was born. I lived there until before I turned 14 years old. In Nicaragua we had a communist regime. There was a war going on between the regime, they were called Sandinistas, and people who were called Contras. There was a selective service, where you were basically recruited, not based on your age, but on whether you could hold a rifle, meaning that if you were... Even if you were 10 and you could hold a rifle is then you went to the jungle to fight against the other forces at the time. After I turned 13, then our parents then decided that they were going to come after us at some point to take us and to join his war. So that's when we left. And this was my brother and I, who is a year older. Things can be ironic in our history, by this, I mean that... This war that was happening in Nicaragua was being financed by the US government. And yet, when we went to the US Embassy, because we wanted to get a visa to come to the US and not die in the war, we were denied our visas, so I remember it was a lady at the US Embassy in Managua, the capital.
0:04:06.4 CHAMORRO: And she said to us, we’re denying your visa because you're not going to the US to visit, you're going because you're fleeing the war at the time. I didn't quite understand it, but years later, then that's when... I sort of thought about it and I said, No, that was ironic, because here's the government who's financing this war, and this is the reason why so many young people are dying, and yet they don't want us to come over. If they weren't financing the war maybe... We wouldn't have this work, we wouldn't have this selective service, and yeah, we could maybe remain in poverty as a country, but we wouldn't have to die anyway, so that's what I found at ironic. So, we were denied. So, the next thing was, Well, how do we get there? What we did is we ended up flying to Mexico City because Mexico City did not require a visa at the time, and from Mexico City, then we thought that... I did have an older brother who actually was living here in California already, I thought that when we get to Mexico City, that my brother was going to send for us, but he was facing his own issues here, so he wasn't able to...
0:05:39.9 CHAMORRO: And so over time then that we turn into, I believe, three months that we had to spend in Mexico City until we were able to get a ticket to fly. Though there was only enough to buy tickets for three people, a friend of mine, myself and another person. We were the fortunate ones, but my brother had to stay behind, so we flew to TJ. When we get to TJ, it interesting because when you're coming from Central America, or I would say even South America, you have to cross more than one border. It was prevalent at the time that you had the Mexican police, Mexican equivalent of... I don't know if I investigators is the right word, but they would typically try to pray, they would try to pray on immigrants coming from other countries to exploit them or to take some money from them when we left the plane. I remember at the time, they had a staircase that connected you to the plane, and so as we started to come down the stairs, at the bottom of the stairs, there was this Mexican police officer, and he was pulling people aside to ask them questions, so they pulled aside one of my friends who was in front of me, but they let me go, they terrified my friend, but they...
0:07:30.7 CHAMORRO: I guess my friend had trained himself to speak Spanish with a Mexican accent, so I guess the question is where that the police officer had... We’re trying to see if you were indeed from Mexico and if you were not, then that's when they would try to put you somewhere and try to steal your money. They would send you back. So anyway, they let us go and we got into a vehicle to go to our hotel, and then as soon as we arrived at the hotel, actually we were walking to the hotel, the taxi left is nearby, and all of a sudden we had this vehicle that cut us off. Low and behold, it was the same officer that was at the airport actually was the officer who was in this car, so he proceeded to get us in his car and then put a gun to his lab and said, You know, you guys are not from Mexico, so you're going to give me all the money. You have it, otherwise, I'm going to send you back. And so that's... We lost any money that we had left, and this officer took, with the exception of, I think one of my friends had 5 hidden in his pocket somewhere, so that was what we had left to his name, he let us go and we went to the hotel.
0:09:05.3 CHAMORRO: Now, we don't have money at all to stay anywhere, and so we asked the hotel whether they could be... They knew someone who could get us across the border, and so the person here at the registration desk then told us that he knew someone... He called a person and then later that day, then they came to pick us up, we ended up at a house and they... Fuse were hungry because we had not eating. Probably right after midnight, then we started walking. It was a group, I want to say it was maybe about 15 people or so, we started just walking at some point, we got to an area that had mountains, and I remember going through the mountain, it was like as if the mountain was not typically... When you think about a mountain, you think about something you're in the wild, but in this case, as you were walking, you would see all types of evidence of other people who have to take in this journey, you would see water bottles, fake IDs, all kinds of evidence of people who had taken this route, and at some point then we think there was a helicopter hovering over us, and that's when they told us to hide because it was a helicopter who was trying to put the lights on people to see if they could apprehend you.
0:10:56.3 CHAMORRO: So luckily, the helicopter left, we kept walking through the night, and then at some point, I think we got to... I want to say it was a ranch, we get thirsty and we decided to drink some water, I believe that actually say this because when we stop, I want to say maybe it was no more than five minutes while we were stopped, there was a road ahead of us, and there was a border unit that just drove by at that time, so if we had not stopped, I believe they would have apprehended at least some of us, at least me, because being close to 14 at the time, I wouldn't have known any better, I wouldn't have known to run, I would just be in fear and I think I would have been taken... So, we get lucky for the second time and we continue until it was morning time, we didn't have any water, think it must have been winter time or so, because there were some puddles of water and we didn't have any water, so I decided that I want to drink from the puddle of water. That idea, I started vomiting, kept walking until we finally got to a place where there was a car waiting and then they proceeded to fit all 15 of us in this car, and the cars drove...
0:12:37.7 CHAMORRO: We ended up in South LA, they put us in a basement, and it wasn't until, I believe the next day, my brother had to come and pay the ransom money or the money that needed to be paid for me back then, if you were from Central America, then it was 500. This is 1984, but if you were from Mexico, I think you... The price was 300. That's the story. How I made it through crossing the border illegally, like many other people have done, and I believe many other people will continue to do, because this continues to be the land of opportunity, the land where people who feel persecuted or feel that their life might be in danger like me and my friends, where they feel that they can be safe. And so, from there, I went, my brother and I... Then my brother lived in a garage... In a converted garage. He worked at a fast food restaurant. He basically supported the two of us for some time, I decided at some point, after a few days, I need to do something, I need to... Obviously was too young to work, but I said I need to learn the language because I didn't know a word of English, so I asked around and I was told it was an adult school nearby where I could take some classes, some ESL classes.
0:14:25.5 CHAMORRO: And so, I decided to, when I enroll myself, and that was the first opportunity that I had to start learning while I was still waiting for my birth certificate to come from the Nicaragua. Things back then took a very long time... As you probably know, I mean, this is before the internet, right. In which things are much easier to put technology in, 1984 was still a little bit behind, but once I got my Birth Certificate, then I enrolled at a local high school where I did half of the ninth grade. I'd been from there, and this was South LA, and my brother and I ended up moving to Long Beach, and so my next school was a high school, and so I entered the 10th grade there, right around that time, then the necessity... Actually, the necessity to work was there from the beginning, but I couldn't work before because of my age, once I... I want to say I turned... I turned 16, or maybe before, because I look older in my age, so actually, I think I had to lie to... When I went to my first job at a McDonalds, I told him that I 18.
0:15:50.6 CHAMORRO: I told the person that I was 18 because I needed to work more than the allow hours for reminder, so I started working when I was in the 10th grade, and because my brother and I needed to support ourselves, I needed to work more than I began working full-time since then, so I worked the night shift from four to midnight, and from there, I would walk home, I guess back then, I have to say that maybe I'm a person who spiritually, I believe in the Lord, and so I believe the Lord kept me safe. Walking at night, at midnight. Every night on my way home. So, the next day then I would go to school and I would try to stay awake, at some point, I ended up having more than one job, if I had two jobs, and at some point I even had a river shift had another place, so I worked at a place called Tommy's famous chili burgers. And so, Sunday nights, I would work the graveyard shift, so the next day, Monday I would get off at 6 am, so I would change clothes at work, and then I would walk across the street and take the bus...
0:17:25.9 CHAMORRO: My journey through high school was not the typical one, in sense that I never had time to go to any of the functions, any football games or any of the typical functions a high schooler would go to because I was working... I didn't have time to make a lot of friends. In fact, I was more of an introvert at the time, which is hard to believe Cheryl, because now I can't stop talking. So, no friends, it was just work. Go to school. But one thing that kept me going was this thought in my mind that education was important, and so I knew that graduating from high school with something that it was a must, and this was something that my parents instilled in me. The value of education. The value of achieving a goal. And so, no matter if I was tired or if I just wanted to sleep or rest for a little bit, I knew that I needed to be at school, so fortunately, I was able to graduate from high school in 1988, and then from there, I thought... I knew that I needed to continue with my education like many...
0:19:02.3 CHAMORRO: Perhaps many others, I decided to take a little bit of a break. I think I just wanted to, for once, maybe just work and just have a little bit of more stability in the sense of having a little bit more time for me, and so I took a year off after graduating from high school, and so about a year later I decided, Okay, I'm ready, I need to go to the local community college. I didn't know how the system worked, because when I was in high school, I never met with a counselor. I don't know if I even knew that, if I ever knew that we had counselors there to help us... Even if we did maybe, I don't think I would have had the time. So, I went to the local community college at that time. What was interesting is the counselor that I spoke to, I believe that the whole time... The one thing I remember from him is that he can looking at his watch the whole time that he was speaking to me, and I don't think I was in his office more than five minutes, but I can both more confused.
0:20:21.3 CHAMORRO: And so, not knowing what I wanted to study, then I decided to take classes. Whatever looked interesting. Then I'll take that class right there. There was no road map. It was just random. So, I lasted maybe two semesters, and then I dropped out because it was just No, I couldn't find a purpose, I was working as well. And so I just decided when... Let me just work. Maybe I can make some money and maybe I can give school a chance at another point, and so I dropped out, that's when I started working as a waiter, and it was a blessing in the sense that... I guess two reasons, one is that it brought the extrovert out in me, so I had to develop that personality, because when you're working as a server, you need to talk to customers, you need to be a little more outgoing, so that helped me come out of my shell but also it gave me an opportunity to make much better money that I was making working fast food restaurants before at minimum wage. The bad thing about it was that I became good at what I was doing, and so I was making more money at the time that perhaps many other people graduating with a college degree, and the bad thing about that is that it fit this thinking that maybe you don't need to go to school.
0:22:11.0 CHAMORRO: Maybe why go to school and study and spend all those hours when you're making some good money now, and so a year, turning to two, turn into three... So, I started when I was 19, it wasn't until I was 23, 24. Remember talking to a co-worker at this restaurant where we were both servers, and he asked me, he says, Hey, so what are you going to do with your life besides this... He goes, because you don't want to do what? You don't want to be in the same place. At my age, where I am right now. He goes, look, I'm over 30, I have a family to support. There is nothing for me. So, this is all I'm going to do for the rest of my life. And he said, you’ve got to do something different. Think about it at that moment. It's almost like I had an epiphany, and I went back to that thinking of when my parents had always instilled in me about education, education is the way out. It was this comment that my co-worker made that got me thinking and truly send me back to this goal of, I need to go back to school and I need to do something with my life.
0:23:42.8 CHAMORRO: Otherwise, he's right, this is all I'm going to do. And not that there was anything wrong with doing that line of work, but I could do more, and so I decided to give the local community college a second chance, and this time the Lord had someone waiting for me, I didn't have the same counselor who he kept looking at his watch. Now, I had a counselor who is recently retired and lauded for me what I needed at that point in my life, she actually... When I went to her office and I told her what wanted to do, she did that, she basically developed the road match, he developed my schedule of classes by semester, and said to me, here is... You know what you need to do. Semester one, you're going to take this classes, semester two, and she said by the time you're done with this and you're the ready to transfer to the university. So, all I did was follow then when Lauda had built for me or had drawn for me, he did that, I kept working, he was a waiter and going to school in night, so I went to Valley, I remember...
0:25:20.0 CHAMORRO: I think I would get off from work. I would start a school at 4 and would go to school till 9 or 10 PM every night, and so I did that until... It was time for me to transfer. From there, I transferred to university summer and were a major in business, and from there, then I kept going with education that I got my MBA soon after, and then after many years of working and various fields than one day in talking to prior Chancellor and the Orange County Community College system. Then he planted this idea or asked me this question about perhaps getting a doctorate, and that's something that I had thought about. I think he planted the seed and then the timing was just right, because the local university, just started or had recently started offering doctorate programs in education, and so here, I decided to give it a try and thanks to the Lord, again, I was able to go in and go in, finish... Met my journey in education, I hope finished with that last degree. Kind of a long story. Cheryl, my journey coming from Nicaragua at 14, going through the border, finding the opportunity here in the US for an education, but also for me to start a new life here.
0:27:11.6 BROOM: Thank you for sharing the story because it is just absolutely incredible what you have gone through and where your life has taken you, and I know for people listening, we see in community colleges, students like you that have come from amazingly diverse and humble backgrounds that have had to overcome so many obstacles, it's just such an honor to talk to someone like you that has not only overcome so much in your life, that has gone on to dedicate yourself to serving students like you and other students who want to build better lives for themselves. So I think your story is so inspirational and so amazing, and I think a lot of people listening will agree, in fact, I think everybody listening will agree, it's amazing, and I think that hearing it made me really reflect on how important personal connections are from your family and your brothers, to random people you met along the way to the counselor at your local community college who helped guide you, and how important those one-on-one connections are to students who need guidance and need help. And now in your current position, that's something that you are doing is creating connections and creating connections with businesses and industry.
0:28:41.7 BROOM: And students and preparing students for careers in so many ways. How have you seen this work change in the last couple of years, where do you think that people who work in the system can make the most impact and building these local connections...
0:28:58.1 CHAMORRO: Things have changed, I think in... In our system, the value of... I think the value of education is there... I think as a society, we value education, however, one of the issues that I see is that we don't put as much value on the importance of career education or career technical education. And by that I mean, well, it's important to get many of our students to a four-year university, the reality is that not all of our students, they necessarily want or need to get for your degree, because we have many students perhaps in situations similar to mine, where as soon as they graduate from high school, or even when they're in high school, they need to work for them. Working a job, it's not a choice, but it's a necessity because by you need to bring food to the table by working to provide for yourself, to your family. So, one thing that I definitely encourage is for our educational system to provide options, provide students with different roadmaps that can accommodate according to where they are in their life, for example, for the student who wants to... Who like to do things and soon and who maybe has had an aptitude to work on, let's say, now welding or automotive or even technology, even advanced manufacturing.
0:31:01.4 CHAMORRO: So for that student, maybe the route might be to go to the local community college and get a certificate or get an associate's degree, and then go to work and get some experience, and later on, if that student decides to continue their education... And I think, by all means, they can continue. So that's one pathway. Another pathway may be for that student who has known all along that he or she wants to go to for our university, and maybe those students, some of them may decide to come to the local community college and do their first two years, and then transfer to a university, or some of them may decide from high school that are going to go direct to a university. What I'm advocating is that we give this message, I think, to our young students, to let them know that success can be defined in different ways, so success can be that you come to a community college and you get an associate degree or a certificate, or success can be that you go to university, but it's by giving you the info, I think you, that student can make a better informed choice about where you want to go rather than do what I describe sometimes. Sometimes we may promote things, there's only one way to go to college, which is we tell students, Hey, this... If you don't go to a university, if you don't get a college degree, then you’re a failure, and I think that's farther from the truth, you really... Success can be defined in different ways. For our students.
0:32:56.5 BROOM: We were chatting via email about something that you feel really passionate about, and it was interesting because you had sent me some notes and I had responded, I don't know if you had a chance to read my response, but I've been working on a series of articles, it's part of a book that I'm working on to helping prepare students for careers, and one of the things that I discovered in my research is that even if you're a college graduate, if you start off your career under-employed, you have a higher likelihood of remaining under-employed 10 years out, and that's especially true for women, women and people of color are under-employed after college or can't find careers in their field of study, then they're substantially less likely to grow their incomes and advance in their careers. So that can be one of the most challenging things that our college students are up against is just finding a career after they graduate, and I know that's something that you've really been dedicated to in the last couple of years, is trying to get students into careers where they have a pathway to advancement. Getting them started on the right foot, and I was hoping that you could share some of some of the things that you've been doing in the system to help students as they enter the workplace.
0:34:25.5 CHAMORRO: I believe... We have a big issue, not just now, but we have had an issue for a very long time with having students who graduate with a college degree and they cannot find employment into their field of study. This actually happened to me when I got my Bachelors, because I was under the impression... So when I was going to the university and through the community college, and then I was working as a waiter. So I couldn't do anything else because I was working full-time and then going to school full-time, so there wasn't time to do any other type of work experience. So what ended up happening was that I graduated, I got a Bachelor's Degree in Business, but I didn't have any other experience other than working in restaurants, that I think was one of the issues, but the other issue was that for me, personally, in my mind, I was under the impression that if you got a college degree, then you would automatically have all these employers wanting you to work for them, or that if you submitted applications, then your phone would be ringing constantly because of all these employers competing again for you, but I soon realized that because I didn't have any experience that was related to the job, then I wasn't...
0:36:03.5 CHAMORRO: I would submit applications after application, I wouldn't get a call, the few jobs that I get a call from where jobs that didn't require a college degree, I believe the two... The two that I actually got to work for sales. And so, what I did for myself is I decided, Well, I need more education, and so that's what got me to go into my master's, and it wasn't until I was halfway through the master's program that an opportunity came up to do an internship for a local city and it was a full-time internship, and so it gave me the opportunity... Or actually, I have to make a big decision at the time because I have to... In my server job, I was working, I was working full-time, I was making good money with tips, but I also had benefits, especially health benefits, because at the time I had... My two older sons, I think there were probably maybe three and one at the time, and so I needed health insurance, and so when this opportunity came up for this internship that was full-time, but offer no benefits, I had to make a position as to know...
0:37:27.9 CHAMORRO: Do I take it or not? And fortunately, I decided to take it and I pray that my sons didn't get sick during the whole year of the internship that was supposed to last... Well, that internship, I open the doors for me because it gave me the opportunity to work, I guess, in an office environment, for a lack of a better word, and it was working in a human resources department. And from there, I think I was able to apply my work ethic and just this thinking about showing your employer where you're capable of... That led me to other opportunities, so before the internship actually was supposed to expire, then I got an opportunity to work within the same organization, but now in a full-time position, and then from there, that led me to different opportunities until I landed in education, which is the field that I'm in right now, so going back to your question here is, I believe that it's extremely important for our students to get work experience, and something that it's closely related to the field that they're studying before they graduate, because number one, it gives them that experience, but it also helps them to build those relationships because as they say is who you know and who knows you, when you're already...
0:39:18.7 CHAMORRO: When you're working for an organization and you're someone who is a go-getter and people see that you have ambition, you're someone who wants to excel and who always give 100%, then whenever there's an opportunity in that organization for someone, they're probably going to think about you, so one thing that I highly recommend to our students, I get that level of experience, whether it is an unpaid internship or a paid internship, or even just an opportunity to learn on the job... I take it. So, what we're doing in Orange County right now is we have started through one of our regional projects, which is led by North Orange County Continuing Education, we have a work-based learning project where we're trying to provide students with an opportunity to get those skills to get that before... One of the things that we have done is we are offering something called Future Built Fridays, where we bring in speakers every Friday that can provide our students with some of those tools that they need, to build their network and build those relationships. And number two, how to be successful when you get that opportunity for the job interview, because many of us may know...
0:41:00.4 CHAMORRO: Let's say we went through, we know our material in a particular field very well, but if we're not able to explain it, if that's not able to come out during the interview, that knowledge... And then we're probably not going to get that job. So, in Future Built Fridays and some of our sessions address that, how can you be successful during that interview? What are the things that you could say? How could you answer some of those tough questions? So I'll end by saying that I think the more that we help our students, not just... I think as a system, we do an excellent job of providing instruction and preparing our students academically, but I believe we need to help them with what comes next once they graduate. The goal is for them to get a job that provides livable wages, a job where that can help them move up in the future, and a job that can help them... Provide for their families and for them to build a better future. So anything that we can do to help our students then after actually, I should say before they find is anything that we can do to provide that level of job and skills to succeed.
0:42:33.5 CHAMORRO: I think the more, the better service that we're going to be providing for them...
0:42:37.6 BROOM: It's so true when I taught in the community college system, I would tell my students the best advice that I could give them is to get an internship, get experience and make connections. And in fact, even today, during this pandemic, my seventh grader has been going to all of his teacher's office hours and has discovered that making a personal connection with his teacher can dramatically impact his grade, so it's all about connecting, learning, giving people the opportunity to see what your best and getting out there and getting experience, so I applaud you. I see all of your posts on LinkedIn for your Future Built Fridays, and I think that it's such an important thing to offer to students are these skills... These opportunities for connections, the soft skill practice that so many people need, whether it be interviewing or public speaking, that is so important beyond just growing the knowledge base, it's so important to be prepared and have experience before you enter the workforce.
0:43:54.2 CHAMORRO: It definitely is. It's interesting that you... But that's exactly what I tell my daughters. I have fourth in a sixth grader, and I tell them, I said, you’ve got to talk to your teachers because I said, Don't be afraid to ask questions if you don't understand something, because if you don't ask, there might be... Two things that they might be thinking. So, I said When you go and you actually go to your teacher and you ask it shows that you're interested, it shows that you want to learn, so if we apply that to, I guess, more mature students in community colleges, then it's the same when it comes to... In building those relationships, I mean it's about... You’ve got to get out there and you get a bit... Build that network to talk to people talk to... If there's a job fair on your campus, then you want to be able to eat, go and talk to that recruiter and maybe that opportunity, the one that they have at the moment, may not necessarily be the one for you, but because you made a good impression, maybe later and you hand that out a card or gave out your email or your phone number, maybe the recruiter will call you what...
0:45:37.9 CHAMORRO: Another opportunity opens up. I guess, to your point, I think it's really important from early on to even later in our professional career to continue developing those relationships.
0:45:52.7 BROOM: Well, and as we wind down our conversation, speaking of relationships, you are a very active contributor on LinkedIn, so I want to encourage anyone listening to follow you Gustavo because you post a lot of great happenings, especially for California Community Colleges, and I always look forward to seeing what you're up to on LinkedIn, hopefully you're open to more connections...
0:46:20.4 CHAMORRO: Yeah, any time. It's interesting because it's LinkedIn, I have to say, it has been very effective. For me, it's a platform to get the word out about the work that we're doing, and also... But it phase excellent in developing new relationships, developing... And this is how I've met... Actually, some of the people I work with now on different projects, they were actually met them either through LinkedIn or through other forms of a networking, so definitely, I would highly encourage any of the... Anyone listening to actually use LinkedIn.
0:47:08.1 BROOM: I know you and I are very active on there and I love it, I love seeing what everyone's doing professionally and keeping track of everything that's going on that way, so anyone listening to Gustavo, friend him on LinkedIn, you're going to get a lot more amazing tips and tricks and find out what's going on, especially in Southern California. You warned me that you were going to talk a lot and you did not disappoint, but you have such an amazing story and have made so many wonderful contributions to community colleges and to students, and I'm so happy that you were able to join me and share your story. With the audience on this podcast, so thank you for your time.
0:47:57.4 CHAMORRO: Thank you, Cheryl, thank you for the opportunity and most definitely, whenever you need me to come on board and you do a one, definitely come in.
0:48:12.4 BROOM: Awesome, I love it. And with that, we are going to wrap up this episode. Thank you for listening to Higher Education Coffee and Conversation. If you like the podcast, please leave me a five-star rating and to discover more great higher education-related content, make sure to visit us at graduate communications dot com. And with that, I'm going to say thank you for listening, thank you for the hard work you do for students each and every day. Bye.