This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedantam. In 2005, an audience filed into the Brava Theatre Centre in San Francisco. The house lights were on, making it easy to see a small group of men already on stage wearing orange jumpsuits and lying on small prison cuts. They were actors in the politically charged play, Guantanamo, on or bound to defend freedom.
The show told the stories of four British Muslim detainees. The narrative unfolds through the testimony of their families, attorneys and US officials, along with letters of the men wrote while being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. One of them was a guy named Ruhal Ahmed, who was from an area outside of Birmingham, and him and three of his buddies were picked up in Afghanistan and were held in Guantanamo Bay for many, many years. This is Nehfi Samid. He played
the role of Ruhal in one production of the play. What I remember from being in the show was just the the way in which his letters were quite spirited in the beginning. He would be talking about how all the Guantanamo Bay guards like him, how they get along, they call him Slim Shady, how he's working on a six pack, and then by the end his letters you could just see we're getting more and more depressed and you could just tell that this was someone who was entering into a dark and very,
very negative state. Ruhal Ahmed was accused of being an al-Qaeda recruit, an enemy of the United States. Throughout his more than two-year stint in Guantanamo, he maintained that he was innocent. He was eventually released without charges. As an actor, Nehfi's felt his job was to inhabit the prisoner's life and character. With any character that you play, you know whether they're in a central or guilty, you try not to judge them and try to just become one of them as much as possible.
It was not the last time Nehfi's would try to get into the mind of a suspected terrorist. This week on Hidden Brain, we dive into the motivations of people on the brink of extremism and those who have been radicalized. We examine what prompts people to turn to violence and explore how psychological science might pull people back from the seductive appeal of extremist ideas. After a few more years in the performing arts, Nehfi's have made left acting to pursue a career
in psychology. I always just had an interest in human psychology and what motivates us. I think that's part of the reason why I also was interested in acting to me. That's just another way of trying to understand a more embodied, more intuitive way of trying to understand human psychology. Nehfi's went on to study cognitive science, but he still craved drama and excitement and wanted to get into a field of research that would take him all over the world. So he sought out cultural
anthropologist and former guest of the show, Scott Atron. At the time, Scott was studying terrorist groups. I really wanted to work with Scott. I think he probably had some interest in working with me, but he ponded me off to another academic who was there at Oxford because that person was maybe more in a position to take on a PhD student. That person tried to pond me off to another academic at the University of Belfast. Passed the hot potato here. Exactly.
Living in Belfast and doing research on historical conflict in Northern Ireland was not what Nehfi's had imagined for himself. This was in 2013, the Arab Spring. Pro-democracy protests were spreading across the Middle East and Northern Africa. Jihadist groups, clusters of violent Islamic militias, were forming at a fast pace. In Syria, young men from around the world were gathering. They wanted to overthrow Syria's authoritarian leader, Bashar Al-Assad.
They didn't always know what they were fighting for. They weren't necessarily going always to become a Jihadist themselves. But you know, it was a sort of sense of like, this is for a lot of young Muslim youth. This was their equivalent of being able to say, this is my hero's journey is about to begin. I'm going to go and maybe I'll die, but I'm going to go fight for the plight of the Muslim people in Syria and save them from this brutal dictator.
Outside of adventure and curiosity, Nehfi's had another motivator for studying radicalized Islamic groups. His own upbringing mirrared that of many of the people Scott was studying. Nehfi's was raised Muslim by his Pakistani father and Indian mother, and he spoke many of the same languages as the Jihadist recruits. In a way, he felt like he was the perfect candidate for this kind of work. One day, he made his views known over dinner with Scott and other academics,
perhaps attached forcefully. I was a little drunk, so I've said something I probably wouldn't have said, which is just, are you kidding me? This is 2013. And I'm like, we have right now, you know, this huge foreign fighter exodus going on of people who are pretty close to my profile, who are pretty close to my age. They look like me. They speak some of the same languages that I speak, same kind of background. And they're all going from all thousands of them from all over the world,
are going to Syria to go join groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda. And you want me to go to Northern Ireland to hang out with former IRA people? Who's going to go talk to these people? Who's going to be able to relate to them? Who's going to be able to put himself in their shoes? Like an actor portraying these people eventually absorb their thinking, be able to come back and communicate it not only to you, but the policymakers and to the media so that way people can understand and relate to it
in order to eventually combat it. I said to those researchers, you're asking me to operate with one hand tied behind my back. I have more to offer than just being a scientist. I have friends who are better scientists than me. That's what you just want is an academic. I'll introduce you to other academics. You don't need me. And I could tell again, Scott sort of like the, the Khutspa that I showed in that moment. And that's when he and another person he was working with offered me a job.
The job was more of what Nefis had in mind. It involved moving to Spain to find, interview and perform brain scans on men nearly or fully entrenched in extremist Islamic groups. The research project was designed to evaluate the lengths these men would go to defend what psychologists call sacred values. Yeah, so sacred values are values that are of the utmost importance to us. They are values that you cannot engage with them or trade them off
with the material aspects of the world. I can't buy this value off you. You're going to reject any kind of economic incentive that I make. There's almost an element of purity to it. Nefis wanted to understand what was happening in the minds of people who have sacred values. But before he could do that, he had to recruit volunteers for the study. He was working in Barcelona, a city with small concentrated areas known to be breeding grounds for extremists.
Nefis had no idea how to find would be extremists, so he drew on his acting background. He decided to pretend to be an extremist himself. So one of my first ridiculous attempts was that I just went to cafes, opened up my laptop in like kind of Muslim dense areas, downloaded an ISIS video, started to watch that with the volume on full blast, thinking that maybe someone might walk behind me and be like, hey, is that the latest
drop? Let's sit down. Are you a fan? Let's sit down and have a chat. And luckily all that happened was at the manager of that cafe who was also Muslim kicked me out and threatened that, you know, I might get the cops called on me if I pull anything like this again. The YouTube videos were not a total loss. Quite a few of them were posted by a man living right outside of Barcelona. Surprisingly, when Nefis reached out and explained his research project,
the man invited him to his apartment. I get to his flat and there's already a couple guys who are there in the kind of the living space and him and I are talking. He brings me into the kitchen where he's doing some stuff there and we sit down and we start talking. And we're speaking to each other in French. And he's telling me about his ideology and his way of thinking about the ruins. Very clear to me very quickly that this guy is supporter of the sort of global jihad movement.
We're having this conversation and it's all going fine. But then he starts to get more and more animated. He asked me where I'm from and I was honest. I told him I'm American. He knew I was a researcher that I'm trying to study this way of thinking. And then he starts saying some stuff like, you know, we can't trust anybody as Muslims were persecuted everywhere we go. And then he says basically, you know, why should I even trust you? You're you're an American.
And then he says, why should I even let you out of my flat? And that's when I realize, okay, things are really turning sideways here. Now Feast decided to appeal to the young man's vanity, his desire to be an influencer. Listen, I saw your YouTube channel. No one's watching your videos. You know, you had like 68 views. You have like whatever like 200 followers or something. I am a researcher. My articles will
be published in, you know, major academic journals. I have the potential to if I can understand you, I have the potential to get your message out to a broader audience. I might hear to be your mouthpiece, but I can at least, you know, communicate what you think and your ideas to a wider audience because you can't do it on your own. You're not doing. You're not succeeding on your own. And he kind of laughed it off. He thought that was a little funny. He was like, all right, fine.
And then he then just continued on with the conversation, but I could tell there was something that's off now. It's not really the same dynamic. He leaves the kitchen. He leaves me there. And I hear him in the other room speaking to these two guys in the region. Now Feast spoke Urthu, which shares some words with the region. As he eavesdropped on the men in the next room, one word kept popping out. I hear him say this word again and again,
monothec, monothec, monothec and monothec is a word that kind of means a best trader. At worst, it means a fake Muslim. Someone who's saying he's a Muslim, but is basically not a Muslim. And I realize they're talking about me. Now Feast knew that for some Muslims with extremist views, being a fake Muslim was a sin punishable by death. Frightened for his life, he tried to figure out how to escape. He could not exit through the front door without alerting the three men in the
next room. It was at that moment. He remembered a story that Scott Atrin had told him. When he was in Indonesia, he got into a bit of trouble with some jihad he's there, and how he had to jump out of a window while while he was using the bathroom to get out of that situation. I'm glad he had that conversation with him because that is what caused me at that
moment to look out and see that there's a window in this room. There was only one problem. He couldn't just jump out the window like Scott had done because this apartment was on the second floor. Nefeast opened the window and saw there was a narrow ledge outside. Terrified by the man in the next room, he stepped out onto the ledge. I'm hanging on the ledge of the side of this building. There's an awning of like a store or something underneath me. I just momentarily balanced my foot
on the awning, but immediately the awning kind of cracks. So I fall, but I fall into the awning, which mostly broke my fall. I completely shattered the awning. Luckily I didn't hit the ground too hard, and I was able to just get basically just as soon as I got my feet on the ground, I just ran to the train station as fast as I could. And stupidly when I get to the train station, I realized
the next train is an hour and 27 minutes. Okay, this is not the right move, but luckily there was a taxi outside so I got on to the taxi and told him to go towards Barcelona. Wow, so this was your introduction to trying to find these people. This didn't disobey you at this point from saying, you know, maybe I should go back to acting? I mean, it's all acting, right? I mean, but I mean, it's like it's, it's, I mean, this, I wanted adventures, right? I wanted excitement.
I wanted to, you know, I didn't, I didn't want stunt doubles. I wanted to be my own stunt doubles. So here I was, you know, getting what I asked for. When we come back, Navi's finds it slightly more boring, but also less dangerous way to talk to extremists. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.
Navi Samhid is a cognitive scientist at King's College London. As a young doctoral student, he wanted to identify what factors push people to become violent extremists. While conducting research in Barcelona, his first few attempts to find volunteers to take part in his studies failed. But he did eventually discover a better way to connect with radicalised
Muslim men. One of the best ways was to use a fixer, someone from the area who was already trusted by the communities could speak their languages and understood their cultural norms. Navi's found a few young men who fed the bill and hired them as research assistants. One of them especially stood out. And at first I wasn't sure whether he was going to be a good research assistant or not, just because he didn't have a university degree or anything. He didn't
even have like a normal high school diploma, but turned out he was amazing. I mean, he spoke something like six languages fluently, very charismatic, full of personality, had big dreams and ambitions, wanted to be a professional athlete, wanted to be a musician, wanted to go into the arts. After meeting me, he wanted to be a researcher, just a really charismatic individual,
and he knew everyone. And so he and I together in the beginning started to go out and meet people and he would introduce me to the the right kinds of characters and then kind of just snowballs from there. You kind of get eventually more and more extremist people. They focused on recruiting volunteers from Moroccan and Pakistani immigrant communities. To Navi's surprise, many young men were excited about the possibility of having their brains scanned.
People found that interesting to be honest, you know, even when I got to the most extreme people, the most radicalized people who were openly telling me about their support for Al-Qaeda or for other groups, when they would hear that they would they became curious. They wanted to know more about what his previous neuroscience stay. Like what are your hypotheses about this? And then some of them also were a bit narcissistic too. You know, they were like, oh, my brain is very special.
You're going to discover that. Just wait until you see my brain. One guy was like, okay fine, I will participate in your study, but only under one condition. He kind of looks around, like he's about to tell me something very secretive and he goes, I want a picture of my brain just to prove to my mother that I have one. Navi's and his team conducted the first set of brain scans on a group of Moroccan men whose
families had been living in Barcelona for a few generations. These were men on the edge of radicalization, open about their willingness to fight or even die for their beliefs, but who hadn't yet committed themselves to a group like ISIS or Al-Qaeda. Navi's wanted to better understand what might prompt these men to make the leap to join extremist groups. So he set up a video game called Cyberball, a virtual soccer game. When a volunteer sat down to play,
he'd see four avatars on the screen. One of them represents them. It's their little avatar. And then there's three other avatars of three other players. They can see faces of those three players. They look like Spanish or Catalan players. They have names underneath them that are very typical stereotypical Catalan male names. And they're told that these three players are three other real people who are sitting in rooms as well. So they think they're real people. The task is simple.
You're just going to press this little button on this computer and you can pass the ball towards any of the other three players that you want to. They'll then pass the ball back to you. Unknown to the participants, the other three avatars were not real players. They were part of the experimental team. Navi's had split the volunteers into two groups. The men in the first group would play the game for a while just passing the ball back and forth with the other avatars. But for the
volunteers in the second group, things played out differently. They passed the ball to the other players. Maybe the ball gets passed to them once or twice, but then the other players basically stopped tossing the ball back to them. And the three ostensibly Spanish or Catalan players basically just are tossing the ball back and forth to each other. The Moroccan volunteer would be deliberately excluded from the game. His avatar left standing with nothing to do but watch.
Once the volunteers had played the game, they were asked to get into an FMRI machine. Just a big magnetic tube that they lay down and they slide into it. And then they look up at a screen basically. And what they're seeing is a value. These were not numerical values, but values of the volunteers had been surveyed on before. Non-secret values such as halal food should be served in hospitals, jails, and schools. Or sacred values like western military forces should be expelled from Muslim lands.
Underneath the value, they then see a scale, a 1-7 scale. And that's a fight and die scale. So for one, it says, how much are you willing to do for this value? One being, I'm not willing to do anything at all. And then seven being, I'm willing to fight and die. Previous research that nafis and other cognitive scientists had done had revealed a trend. When someone was on the edge of radicalization, an experience of social exclusion would often push
them over the edge. The results of the cyberball study mirrored this finding. Volunteers who were excluded during the virtual soccer game became more willing to fight and die for their sacred values and for non-secret values as well. And not only that, we saw that behaviorally when we retested people for their sacred non-secret values, more of the values that were previously labeled as non-secret started to get categorized as sacred when they went through the psychometric tests.
If a trivial act of exclusion in a video game could change how volunteers felt about serious issues, what might be the effect of more serious forms of exclusion in real life? What I think is going on here mixing in my qualitative observations and looking at other researches is that when people feel many of us hold multiple identities and certainly second
generation, Moroccan youth in Spain are no different. They hold multiple identities from Morocco, the Spanish, they're young, they're a bar-soft football team fan, they associate with
different political movements as well. When you feel rejected by a particular group, especially if it's the majority group, you're probably out of the different groups that you belong to, you're going to find solace in that one group that actually presents itself as your defender, as the group that is there to get your back to be your fellow gang members to protect you against that group that just rejected you. That group is now going to gain an attraction a lot more.
I mean in some ways the speaks are sort of the deproved need we all have to find acceptance. So in some ways when we don't have acceptance in one area of our lives, it's perhaps not irrational that we will seek acceptance in another area of our lives. Getting belonging is just one of those sort of very basic human needs, it's as social animals, it's where we feel safest. You know, evolutionarily if one of us, if we're as a lone animal out there in the wilderness, we're in huge danger.
Social exclusion isn't the only thing that pushes people to what extremism. Neufies and other researchers have noted that it's often a cascade of life events combined with an experience of social exclusion that leads to radicalization. He witnessed this first hand while working with that charismatic research assistant who had helped him find volunteers for the brain
imaging study. So I think he in the beginning sort of saw me as a little bit of like an older brother figure and he wanted to share all of his passions with me and all of his big goals that he had in his life and how he really wanted to become somebody. But then over the course of our field work,
he started to, I could just see kind of go into a darker and darker place. In the beginning, I could just kind of see it in his mood and his energy and a lot of it started off with issues that he was having with his father who basically just wanted him to go get a job to help support the
family, some kind of menial work and really denigrated his high-minded ambitions. Then he had a best friend who was life went into like a very negative direction and he basically lost contact with his best friends so he started to feel more alone because of that. The punches just kept coming. Next, his family found out that he had secretly been dating a Spanish woman who was in Muslim and forced them to break up. He told me that he was just walking
around Barcelona all the time until 3 a.m. in the morning sometimes, chain smoking. And he would be watching videos a lot and he couldn't sleep and he had insomnia and I could tell he was kind of getting into a depressed state. And then over time, he started talking about some political issues
and I could see that there was this bubbling sympathy for extremist groups. He would be talking about the Taliban and he would be saying how the Taliban are being bombed on Pakistani soil by the US government and how these are our people and this is we should be talking to them and then he started talking about foreign fighters going to Syria and how when foreign fighters came to Spain, they were considered heroes, went to go into Syria, they were considered traitors, probably because
they're just Muslims or this is hypocrisy. And these are showing me videos that he was watching and some of them were ISIS propaganda videos about how ISIS was opening up schools and hospitals in Syria and so this is the stuff you never see in the mainstream media. This is what these guys are actually doing on the ground and so I realized I have to intervene and I have to do something. Nefis asked his research assistant to meet in a tree line promenade in an immigrant neighborhood
of the city. He waited on a bench and waited and waited. First of all, he shows up very late, which again is not like him, but he shows up very late and I can remember seeing him from a distance walking over to me, shoulders slomped, hands in his pockets. Just kind of a shell of the of the guy that I remember, but so much charisma and he knows I want to talk to him about something related to what he's been showing me and he comes and he sits next to me in the bench,
his arms are crossed, he's not even really looking him, he's kind of looking off in the other direction and I just start telling him, you know, this is these videos you're watching, these are crazy, this is propaganda, they're just taking advantage of you, you don't even understand who these people are, these are terrorist groups, they're murderers, they're killing everyone, and they're just completely brainwashing you and taking advantage of your vulnerable state.
And what was his reaction when you said this, did he say thanks for setting me straight? I mean, he looked up to you as an older brother, did he have the reaction of basically saying you've shown
me something that I hadn't seen? He tried to play Kami, he just stared down at the ground while I was talking, he was nodding his head, listening to me, but not really looking at me, not really taking in what I was saying, and he just kind of, in a way that even I didn't quite believe at the time, just said thank you, Nifisplay, thank you, I understand, I understand what you're saying.
And then he just basically agreed that we would pick up the fieldwork again, we would do it in a few days, and he said thank you, and then he just got up and just walked away, didn't really even turn to me or anything, he just stood right up and just walked back towards where he came from. And then the research assistant broke off all contact with Nifis.
I sent him messages, I was asking him, are we going to meet up, I tried to call him, I realized the phone had been disconnected, we were following each other on social media, so I went and checked the social media profile and I saw that the user had been deleted essentially. And you know, I feared the worst, my mind goes into the direction of
that he'd go off and join a group or something or go to Syria. Nifis considered trying to track the research assistant down, but he didn't know where he lived, so he tried an alternate route. He went to one of the assistant's cousins to do some digging for him. That guy says, okay, he'll do some investigation, he didn't want to talk to me on the phone,
he said just come back one week later. So for a whole week, I'm just kind of sweating bullets, you know, metaphorically speaking, like I just don't really know what's going on happened to him. They come back and I meet with the cousin and he tells me basically that the parents
sort of found out what was going on with him. And then the parents basically said, okay, we can send you abroad to another Western country where you can get a job at a family acquaintances business, work part time, send some of that money back to us, and then you can pursue some of your grander ambitions that you have while you're there. So that way we get the money that we need and you can still pursue the things you want to pursue. And supposedly that's what he went off and did.
Ironically, the parents did what Nifis should have done. Instead of trying to convince the young man that his beliefs were wrong, they offered him an opportunity to chase his dreams. As soon as those pathways for purpose and meaning and really inclusion in terms of his life and his dreams, once those pathways opened back up to him again, he dropped his flirtation with radicalization and went off and pursued his ambitions.
When we come back, Nifis discovers more methods we can use to deter the spread of radicalization. And he said to me, because Nifis, I can't live in that world. That world gives me anxiety. The world of QAnon, even if it's wrong, it at least tells me where the bad guy is. It gives me a direction of which way to point my gun. You're listening to Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta.
Across the world, politically-fueled violence is on the rise. People from different backgrounds are joining extremist groups willing to fight and even die for their beliefs. Nifis amidst studies the psychology of extremism. In his initial research, he was able to identify how social exclusion often paves the path to radical ideologies. Which left him to wonder, is there a way to pull people from the grip of such ideologies?
So he set out on another study. This time, he gathered a group of Pakistani men living in Barcelona. Unlike the volunteers in the initial study, these men were fully radicalized. Or what Nifis calls devoted actors. Devoted actors is a term that basically just means that there are some people who sometimes think about the world in very duty-bound ways. And they're willing to commit extreme costly sacrifices
for their group or for their values. They're going to fight and die for it. They'll kill people. They'll even kill themselves if they need to. The Pakistani men he recruited for the study were devoted actors to Lashkar Itaiba, an extremist Islamic group whose main mission is to fight India and force it to turn over the disputed state of Kashmir to Pakistan. For them, we want to understand what will bring them
back from the edge of violence. Because they're already very close to it and they're already put extreme. Once again, Nifis asked the men to get into an FMRI machine. The volunteers were presented with a series of sacred and non-sacred values and then asked about their willingness to fight and die for those values. When the men were asked about sacred values, Nifis found one part of their brains appear to be deactivated.
Called the Dorsal Lateral Prefrontal Cortex, which is associated with many things, but including executive functions, deliberative cognition, self-control, emotional regulation, etc. Essentially, this is the part of the brain that makes you take a moment to stop and think. Should I do this? Why am I doing this? Simultaneously, another part of the brain, and that's the ventramedial prefrontal cortex, seem to show heightened activation.
This part of the brain is involved with emotion, reward, motivation, and fear. But when asked about non-sacred values, the researchers did not see differences between these two areas of the brain. I mean, the standard example that I usually give when I tell people about this study is, imagine you're out at a restaurant and you've had a nice dinner and the waiter comes and offers you a menu and there's some nice dessert in there. You might see a nice tiramisu or something and you go,
oh, I want that. If I were scanning your brain, there's a pretty good chance I would be seeing the ventramedial prefrontal cortex active in that moment. Oh, I want. Then you go, oh, you know, I got to go to the tunnel, lose weight. I'm going to the gym. I went to the gym yesterday. I didn't go today. Maybe I'll go tomorrow. I don't know. This is not really a good decision here. If I was scanning your brain at that moment, I might see the door salad or prefrontal cortex active.
And you'll see these two parts of the brain competing over each other. And maybe one will win out and you might say, hey, you know, I want that I want the tiramisu or I want I might not. So that's normal decision making that takes place. And when it comes to non-circuit values, it's basically the same. Even for these supporters of the Lushkriya Thieba, when it's non-circuit values, you see that normal activity of decision making going on. But you don't see it when it comes
to sacred values. It's just the eye want part of the brain that seems to be online. Nefis and his team wanted to see if it was possible to counter that I want response with more measured and thoughtful brain activity. As he'd learned with his research assistant, it usually doesn't work to try and convince someone that their beliefs are wrong. So Nefis and his colleagues took a different act. We thought to ourselves, okay, maybe what we can do is we can't change their sacred value,
but we can change what they're willing to do for their sacred values. We can change their their intentions. We can change their action propensity. Maybe we can lower their willingness to fight and die for these beliefs without changing the beliefs themselves. It's okay, that's probably a more realistic goal. How do you change someone's intentions? How do you get someone to back away from their sacred
values? Let alone say no to the turumisu. Again, it comes back to that basic human need to belong. If you want to stay belonging into a particular group, you have to follow the social norms of that group. The more you deviate from the social norms of the group, the more you're sort of othering yourself. You're hacking away at your own sense of belonging. And we normally wouldn't
want to do that. We want to follow the social norms of the social norms shift, we shift along with it oftentimes in order to maintain our sense of safety that comes with belonging. Was it possible in other words not to shift the views of the volunteers, but to shift that perception of the social norms of the groups they cared about? The researchers once again had the
men climb into the FMRI scanner. They could see each sacred and non-secret value they'd been shown in the first half of the study, along with a little green square that represented how willing they were to fight and die for each value. But that wasn't all they saw. They see in a red square what the general opinion of the Pakistani community in Barcelona was in terms of their willingness to fight and die for this particular value. And they knew that we were out there doing surveys
with lots of people, so they knew that we had access to this data. The radicalized men saw there was a large gap between their views and the views of the broader Pakistani community. Suddenly, the researchers noticed a shift in the brain imaging data. Parts of the volunteer's brains that focused on executive functioning asking, should I do this? And does this really make sense? Should increased activation. They lowered their willingness to fight and die to get closer to what the actual
general community said. And the degree to which they conformed was predicted by the degree of reactivation of the Dorsalateral Prefrontal Cortex. So in other words, really what's happening here, if you can tell a story about this research is that they are seeing that their views in some ways are more extreme than the views of people whom they consider to be their in-group. And something is happening in their brains that basically says, let me become more in line with the
views of people in my in-group. Yeah, so basically what I think is going on here is essentially, yeah, they see that this my in-group doesn't agree with my willingness to fight and die. I think that's sort of like this error detection, right? It's like, oh, I'm out of, maybe I shouldn't be so confident about my answer to this willingness to fight and die because I'm out of line. And is it, again, there's a threat, there's a danger here. These are a group of people that I want to
belong to. The story painted by this research has been demonstrated in many other settings. Princeton University psychologist Betsy Palak found that when Hutus and Tutsis in post-genocide Rwanda were led to think that most Rwandans were for reconciliation, they started to favor reconciliation themselves. We explored that research in an earlier episode of Hidden Brain titled Romeo and Juliet in Kigali. For his own part, Nefi says he has come to see the pointlessness
of trying to argue people out of their beliefs. Debates on social media or across the dinner table rarely change the minds of people with strong pre-existing views. A better approach is to focus again on building bonds with our interlocutors and then counting on those bonds to change how people think. Nefi's got to try this approach himself when he noticed a form of flatmate behaving oddly. So this was someone who I had lived with many years earlier, almost almost a decade earlier
at that point. I had known him as a young person. I was maybe eight years older than him or so, and he also looked up to me. He was a white American. He and I sort of lost touch over the years. We stayed in touch over social media. We said messages to each other. Then the pandemic hit in 2020.
I could see on social media that he was kind of posting a lot of extreme content. I noticed that he was specifically going after some people on social media, some people that we mutually knew who were Jewish or at least it seemed like he was targeting them and calling them out and saying that they're just believing whatever the cabal tells them and that they need to trust the plan and that they need to trust Q and Q has all the answers and that they're part of the problem.
The Q that Nefi's former flatmate was referring to is a person or people responsible for the group QAnon, which spreads misinformation about a variety of topics in the United States and beyond. Rather than calling out his friend online or chastising him like he had done with his research assistant, Nefi's asked his former flatmate if he'd be willing to talk. When they got on a video call, it was clear his friend was having a rough time. He didn't look like that nice
story-eyed cute little boy that I knew when he was younger. He was now a man and a man who looked like he had aged quite a bit as well and seemed like he had seen a lot of stress in his life. And the initial conversation was a bit stilted. He was a bit ideological, but at this point I had actually had so much experience talking to people with ideas that are very different than my own. I really knew how to navigate the situation, which was just to ask a lot of questions and for him
to feel like he's being heard. And he eventually revealed to me like his whole journey down the QAnon rabbit hole and even into more far-rightening ideology. And what basically ended up happening was that he had a series of sort of events that happened in his life, losing his job, relationship breaking up, family members loved ones dying, and all happened in a very short order.
And this really created a sense of being lost in his life because all the things that gave him a sense of who he was and a sense of stability were just sort of stripped away from him in a quite short order. Unemployed, lonely, and stuck at home during the pandemic, Neufesis Friend had started spending a lot of time on YouTube. It began with popular alt-right channels which led to conspiracy theory videos and eventually to QAnon.
QAnon gave him a bad guy. He gave him a bad guy that could just be responsible for all the world's problems. At the end of like a 10-hour conversation, I could tell that he understood that I didn't understand really what was motivating him. And so he's sad that he goes, okay, let me try to figure myself out with you. And he says to me, he goes, listen, my family were preppers. We had like 10 guns, 10,000 rounds of ammunition and enough food and water for us to survive the zombie apocalypse
if it came along. I'm an anxious person. I can't handle uncertainty. I need a contingency plan for everything. And he said to me, if there's no real good guys or bad guys, there's no one person who's creating all the trouble in the world, it's just kind of chaotic. You have this chaos theory. You have all these different power players all trying to do their own thing and then sort of things emerge out of that complex interaction because even if that's the way the world is,
I can't live in that world. That world gives me anxiety. The world of QAnon, even if it's wrong, it at least tells me where the bad guy is. It gives me a direction of which way to point my gun. In essence, it gives him a map to a territory. And so he can navigate that world more easily. Although this was unsettling, Nafi has just kept having open conversations with his friend. He wanted to give him a space outside the radical world of QAnon where he could feel understood,
where he could feel like he belonged. These conversations lasted hours. Nafi has gained his friend's trust, going so far as to become what psychologists call a credible messenger. Yeah. Credible messenger needs to have at least two qualities. One is a perception of benevolence that this person has my best interests to hurt, and two, that this person has authority, that they know more about the topic than I do. And I knew from his eyes he saw me as having
both of those qualities. So he respected me and he knew that I respected him as a person. And so I became a credible messenger for him where we would have these conversations where he would post something that was clearly a conspiracy ideology based thinking or what I would consider sometimes hate-to-mongering messages us versus them divisive messages sometimes with undertones of anti-semitism. But I knew that as the credible messenger in his life I could in a nice way,
in a polite way, in a respectful way engage with him about it. And say, listen, I don't think this message is quite true because look at this alternative information. And because I had brought him in and became sort of one source of inclusion for him, he was open to what I was saying. Over time, the friend became more and more willing to have Nephese challenge his extremist beliefs.
He posted less and less. He got a girlfriend who didn't support his radical ideas, and with Nephese's encouragement pursued a new line of work. Q became a thing of his past. Most people don't want to say or even admit to themselves that they believed in something that perhaps they don't agree with anymore. But they just simply walk away from it and they just move on with other things in their life. They don't want to talk about it anymore. And I would say he's kind of more in that face.
I have to say though, the model that you're suggesting here, it's such a difficult model for many people to practice, because if someone does something that we find not just wrong but deeply offensive, deeply hurtful, that angers us, it's very hard to remember that our ability to influence them comes down to there being able to trust us and therefore we should actually reach out to them and make them feel included when everything in our body is screaming to us to exclude them.
Yeah. And we have to remember, are you doing this for you or are you doing this for them? All right, because sometimes it can feel personally cathartic and feel good to get upset at them. And sometimes it's almost we don't realize that maybe we're even being a bit performative in our anger because this is what our in-group would think is the righteous way and the virtuous way to behave. And even if there's nobody else watching, we might be virtue signaling because we've
just intrinsically hold these values now. But it's not always going to be the useful and the right way to actually help navigate someone into a different pathway. If you want to transform another person's life, you have to really transform your relationship with them. I think this is the big myth of individualism as we think that we can exist independently, but we don't. We only exist in relation to other people and everyone else exists in relation
to everyone else. And so if you want to transform an individual person, in some sense, you have to transform yourself as well. You have to change the relationship and be open to the fact that not only are you going to maybe transform their way of thinking, but maybe you'll also change in terms of having more empathy for them and hopefully even more compassion for them as well. Nefisa Meef is a cognitive scientist at King's College London.
Nefisa, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarelle, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. If you enjoy our work, there's plenty more for you to listen to as a member of our podcast subscription Hidden Brain Plus. Hidden Brain Plus
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