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Welcome to the first episode of the Hidden Brain podcast. I'm Shankar Vedantam. You may know me as NPR social science correspondent or the author of The Hidden Brain, a book about unconscious I love day and the world of psychology, sociology, and economics. This podcast is going to be a conversation patterns Today I'm going to tell you about a communication problem in many relationships. It's not obvious, but it's so common that as you hear about it, think of half a dozen examples
has happened in your own life. I'm also going to play a rapid fire game with a friend to tell you four ways you can become a better communicator. then i'm going to talk Michel about the importance of incorporating rituals into our busy lives. We're going to talk about human behavior in lots of different ways on this podcast. We're going to have stories, conversations, and we're also going to play lots and lots of games. Today we're going to play a music game.
I've asked a colleague on NPR's science test to join me. He's Adam Cole. Hi, Adam. Hi, Shankar. Great to be here. Adam runs a science YouTube channel called Skunk Bear. He's a musician, artist, all-around renaissance. What an intro. Adam, for today's music game, I'm going to give you a challenge. Alright. I want you to listen to all the segments in today's episode and come up with a song that stitches all of the science together.
Are you ready, Adam? I'm uncapping my pen. Alright, let's get started. First up, author Sheila Heen. Along with Douglas Stone, Sheila recently wrote a book called Thanks for the Feedback, The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well. One concept in the book focuses on something called switch track.
So switch tracking is a pattern in feedback conversations that is so common that it's instantly recognizable, which is that Someone gives you feedback and your reaction to that feedback changes the subject. That's Sheila. So a switch track is that place where the track is going along and then there is a switch and depending on which way the switch is turned the train will glide smoothly onto a second track or stay on the first track.
She uses a scene from the 2006 TV series Lucky Louie to illustrate how switch tracking works. Louie and his wife Kim are getting ready for a child-free romantic weekend and Louie has just bought Kim some red roses. So what's happening is a conversation starts. Listen, try not to take this the wrong way, okay? But if we're going to be married for the next 30 years, I need you to know that red roses are not my thing.
The first person stays on their own track, the second person actually smoothly switches to a different topic which is their own reaction to the feedback and often the feedback that they have themselves for the first person. Can I critique how you just told me that? And they just get further and further apart, right? And they don't even realize that they're going in different directions. I've told you before that I don't like red roses.
Remember? I just think that you should have thanked me for the flowers first and then said the thing about the roses. There are really two topics on the table, right? Kim's topic is you don't listen to me, and Louie's topic is you don't appreciate me. Still, it's a gift. So I guess I don't think it matters what it is. You should still thank me, right? Yeah, but you see, I don't necessarily think I should thank you for giving me something that I've specifically told you that I don't like.
That's all. And each of them is hearing the whole conversation through the lens of their own topic. So in this case, they're not even really realizing that there are two topics on the table, I think.
What I find fascinating, Sheila, is that the person who is receiving the feedback initially doesn't realize that they're switching tracks that they don't actually it's not a conscious decision to say i recognize this person is giving me feedback i'm uncomfortable with this topic i am strategically going to change the conversation to something else it's not happening at that level
It's not happening at that level at all. And what's interesting is, so for the person doing the switch tracking, you're just thinking, well, that's actually not the most important thing that we need to talk about. What we need to talk about is your problem. The person who started the conversation sometimes actually does realize that the other person is changing the topic.
And they view it as making excuses or distracting or trying to take us off on a tangent. And to the second person, it's not a tangent at all. It's the most important thing going on. So that's what the fight then becomes about. So we're both aware we're having an argument. And the real argument is about what's the most important topic here between us. What happens when both people feel that topic is so much more important than the other person's topic that neither is willing to give way?
You're sunk. But that... That dilemma in and of itself then is the topic of the conversation, which is I'm so frustrated or upset or whatever that I can't actually engage with your topic. Yeah. I think this happens so often in conversations. And one of the things you point out in your chapter, which I found really intriguing, is sometimes the switch tracking happens inside one person's head and not actually saying it aloud. Can you talk about that for a second?
Yeah, and I think that that's even more common in hierarchy when it's the person lower in the hierarchy, right? So your boss is chewing you out. And you're not saying anything out loud because you're... you know, actually smarter than that in that moment. But what you're thinking, of course, is
okay, first of all, this is not my fault. And second of all, you're even worse at this than I am. And third of all, I can't believe that you're doing this in front of everyone and you're this unprofessional, you know, and everybody, by the way, hates you, right? So you are switch tracking to about. or other topics of your feedback for him or her. But it's a silent switch track. So your boss isn't necessarily aware that you're not paying any attention at all.
Hang on. All I'm asking for here is a tiny bit of gratitude. I said thank you. No, you didn't. I was standing up with the flowers. I said thank you the first time you gave me red roses, remember? It was my birthday. I said thank you. And then I said very politely that I would prefer it in the future if you never again gave me red roses. So either you didn't listen or you don't care. Which isn't?
When you think about it hearing feedback like this from a loved one or a close colleague can be really difficult. I asked Sheila why it seems easier to receive feedback from strangers than from the people who are close to us. I think it's because it removes the tension of that wanting to be accepted and respected and loved.
I've had my husband come home and say, gosh, this new colleague has such an insightful comment. I think it's really going to change the way I teach. And he tells me what it is, and I think, uh-huh. And he says, what? And I say, nothing. He says, what? I'm like, okay, I've only been telling you that for 10 years.
Now you know this guy for 10 minutes and he's like the voice of God about what's true about you. And I think that the fact that it's coming from someone who is a stranger or an acquaintance makes it less threatening in a way that enables us to hear it sometimes. There's a sadness to that, isn't there, Sheila, which is that we actually don't listen to the people who know us the best when in fact they are the people who could help us the most.
Yeah, you know, they're the people who know us the best and love us the most, but they're also the people who want us to change the most. When I tell you things and you don't listen, it's a huge insult to me. It makes me feel like I don't matter Believe me, I totally get this you want me to listen to you, and then later remember the things that you say. Well, this has been wonderful. Sheila Heen, thank you for joining me today on The Hidden Brain. It was such a pleasure.
Sheila Heen and Douglas Stone teach negotiation at the Harvard Law School. They're also the authors of the best-selling book. Thanks for the feedback. sheila that was awesome i have to say that if you write a book about how you should be better at receiving feedback there is a real peril here which is that people are going to start giving you feedback
and expect that you're going to be good at receiving it. Has that happened to you? Oh my goodness. If you want an extra helping of criticism in your life, write a book on Holy cow. Okay, Adam Cole has been furiously taking notes so he can come up with a song about all the ideas in this podcast episode. Of course, being a typical artist,
to bring in paper, so he's writing on his own hands. You getting some ideas, Adam? I think I'm about to run out of hand space, gotta roll up my sleeves, use my arms. Alright, I'm afraid you're gonna have to take off your shirt and start writing on your biceps soon. Anyway, we'll be back in a moment for the next segment. science, rapid-fire ideas about human behavior with my friend
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I'm joined by Daniel Pink, whom we have anointed our senior stopwatch science correspondent. Hello, Dan. Hey, Shankar. Great to be here. Dan is going to be a regular on the Hidden Brain podcast. He's the author of Drive to Sell as Human and other books. And like me, he has a passion for social science research. Totally. Let's explain to the listeners how this is going to work.
Dan and I are going to share some interesting ideas from social science research, but we each get only 60 seconds to do it. Can it be done? We found a way to keep each other honest. Dan's going to give me a warning. If I bump up against my time and I'm gonna play this sound if he hits one minute Okay, as we've heard, giving and receiving feedback can be difficult. Dan and I are going to tell you four ways you can become a better listener and a better giver of advice.
Dan, your 60 seconds starts now. Well, Shankar, as you said, we're always trying to get people to pay attention. at school, in the office, at home. But there's some research showing that we have a powerful weapon at our disposal. One of, in my view, the greatest inventions in American technological history, and that is
The post-it note. The what? The post-it note. The sticky note. Randy Garner at Sam Houston State University did this amazing experiment a few years ago, and here's what he did. He was dealing with a really recalcitrant group of people, faculty members. And he wanted them to fill out a survey. And he did a study where he gave some people just the survey. He gave some people with the surveys and a cover letter saying, please fill out the survey. And he gave others.
the survey with a little post-it note handwritten saying, would you please fill out the survey? Well, in the first two groups, fewer than a half of the faculty members returned the survey, completed the survey. But when he put the post-it note on there, the personalized post-it note, Nearly 70% of people completed the survey. Wow. And I think the reason is simple. It's personal, and it's a little bit reciprocal. So if you want someone to do something,
put a post-it note. I really like that, Dan. So the next time I know when you bump up against your 60 seconds, instead of playing an ineffectual buzzer, I'm just going to hold up a post-it note. That's actually probably a pretty good idea. So I don't have a post-it note right now, but I do have a timer.
And Shankar, your one minute starts right now. All right. When someone gives you feedback, there's two ways to think about it, Dan. You can say, okay, I'll take this advice. Or you can say, why is this person telling me this? You can question the motives of the advisor. A few years ago, Max Gunther at Vanderbilt University and his colleagues, they analyzed the brains of men. They stuck them in a brain scanner and piped in the voices of their wives, giving them advice about some issue.
And he found that when the advice was in a subject where the man thought of himself as being an expert, advice from the wives activated a part of the brain that is observed when we try to guess what's happening in another person's mind. So Gunther and his colleagues are speculating that when these men received advice on a subject that was close to home,
Their reaction, their first reaction was to question the motives of their wives. So instead of evaluating the advice on its own terms, these men are asking, why is my wife giving me that kind of advice? So here's the take-home message.
Be really careful about offering advice. If you're given advice, listen to the advice instead of questioning the motives of the person who's giving it to you. That is actually great advice. Truly, truly. And because, again, when I hear something that I disagree with,
I basically want to question the motives of the person who's giving me the advice or telling me what I want to think. I do it all the time. Very, very good. I think there's a great guidance out there simply to navigate life to assume positive intent. and let people disprove that, rather than do what I do, which is assume negative, insidious intent, and wait for people to be shown to be good people. Great advice.
Completely agree with you, Dan, but that doesn't relieve you of the opportunity to actually deliver your next piece of social science research in under 60 seconds. If you're ready, your time starts now. So many decades ago, there was a famous commercial that said, if you want to get someone's attention... Now that might be true, but here's the other question
If you're going to whisper, into which ear should you whisper? Well, it turns out that two Italian cognitive scientists, Luca Tomasi and Daniele Marzoli, have analyzed this question. They went to a nightclub. And they wanted to see, in this crowded, noisy nightclub, are people talking to each other into their right ear, into their left ear? And an overwhelming number, 72%, they were favoring the right ear. Then it gets even more interesting.
They conduct an experiment in that nightclub asking people for cigarettes. Were people more likely to give a cigarette if you asked them in the right ear or if you asked them in the left ear? And lo and behold...
Big numbers. You got a cigarette if you ask people in their right ear. Now, there's a brain reason for that. Our brains are contralateral. Left hemisphere controls the right side of the body. Left hemisphere controls verbal communication. So if you want to get someone's attention, Whisper!
into their right ear. I've got to remember this. I don't know what my editor is going to think when I sidle up next to her and whisper in her ear. I suspect HR might get called in at some point. Yeah, I want you to avoid that.
Bias yourself toward the right, but more important, bias yourself toward doing your assignment here, Shankar. Your next one minute starts right now. Alright, as we know, it's hard to get people to listen to the things you have to say, but besides whispering in their right ear... Researchers have also found another technique that shows some promise. Basically, it's self-flattery.
Here's what I mean. The reason people resist threatening information is that it's painful if you can boost the person's self-esteem before he or she has given threatening information. That might make them more receptive to this kind of information. Tracy Epton at the University of Manchester and her colleagues recently analyzed 144 experiments into the effects of self-affirmation.
They find a pattern. When you ask people to reflect on some value they hold dear, when you ask them to write a short essay about their personal positive qualities, they are more likely to accept information that is threatening or unpleasant. So in other words, the next time before you tell me what I'm doing wrong, then please make sure you compliment me on my courage in the face of adversity and the kindness that I display towards soft furry animals.
Well, that's great. You are a wonderful human being, a great father, a wonderful husband, a brilliant journalist, but you blew your time by 10 seconds. I'm going to take that to heart. That was Stop What Science. I'm Shankar Vedanti. Adam! Well, you have my attention, but unfortunately I'm wearing stereo headphones.
Oh, I forgot about that. I was trying to whisper in your right ear. But I will say, that is probably the most Italian study I've ever heard of. The, you know, cigarettes and nightclub study. Yeah, I suspect that if we polled people in Italy about it, they would say Those are tax dollars well spent. Very much so. All right. When we come back. Finally add in one final step I decided to sit down with a friend at a nice tea shop and talk
of quiet rituals in our lives. But that conversation got switch-tracked by an unexpected visitor. Is that a rat? Stick around. Support for Hidden Brain comes from the United States Postal Service. Business owners and shipping managers, let me ask you something. How confident are you in your shipping process? If you're not using USP as ground advantage service, you might not be as in the know as you could be.
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and maximize game performance with enhanced overclocking. Intel Core Ultra processors for the next era of gaming. Welcome back to Hidden I'm Shankar Vedant. friend of mine, Misha. Indie mom of comedy. What's an Indie mom? I'll let Michelle explain. An Indie mom is a woman who believes that it's okay and great to be a mom. and it's awesome to be a wife, but you've got to hold on to yourself as well.
You got to have some balance in your life. And my mantra is, in order to be a good indie mom, you still have to be innovative and independent in a lot of ways. And what has helped me stay innovative is leaving a PhD program and becoming a stand-up comic. That was a very innovative idea. If anyone knows how to slow things down a little bit and to manage a very busy lifestyle, that would be Michelle. Now in addition to being the mother of three, she's also a comic.
an actress, a public speaker, and despite leaving that PhD program, Michelle is still very much interested in psychology, which is why I thought she would be the perfect friend to talk about the importance of ritual in our daily lives. I caught up with her at a delightful tea shop in Washington DC called Capital T's. Oh my god, look at these choices! Can you see all the choices? There's like, how many teas are here? So the trick is to open the jars and smell the teas. May I smell that?
Oh, so good. Like, this is a bucket of awesome. Our host Nada began to make our tea, first scooping out delicate mounds of tea into glass pots and drowning the leaves in steaming hot water. See all these little nuances that we learn from being an authentic tea house?
I would just pay to watch this, let alone drink this. I would just pay to watch. This is a culture. You know, there's a researcher at Harvard Business School called Francesca Gino, and she's done a lot of work looking at the effects that rituals have on our enjoyment of things.
that if you actually build ritual into the process of enjoying something, which is exactly what we're doing here. This is what we're doing. I suspect it's going to greatly increase our satisfaction with this cup of tea. I concur, and I'm not a scientist. What I do know for sure. is that I'm very excited in this very moment. And I think the ritual has really added to the excitement.
Because typically when you think tea, you think hot water in a tea bag typically. Isn't that what you think? That's what I do in a micro. I like the cushy chair. Would you like the cushy chair? You know, here's a cultural thing for me though. I've been raised to never allow the man to sit with his back to the door.
Really? Yes, because I was taught that if anything unforeseen were to happen, the man should be ready to protect you. So if I sit in that chair, I'm breaking culture. So there's two problems with that theory. The first thing is that we're sitting in this very peaceful tea shop where it's very unlikely anything were to happen. But the second problem and the bigger problem is if something were to happen, I am not the kind of guy who would actually be able to save you, Michelle.
Very, very unlikely. Now explain to me are you allowed to clink mugs before you're drinking? I think we can. Sublime. Sublime. Sublime is a great word. Absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much. That's a great cup of tea. Oh, mine turned out great. but i have to say it's the whole ritual of it that really i think is doing it for me because It's made me slow down. It made me watch. It made me observe as the tea was being made.
I never do those things. I never slow down. I'm always, I pop the tea into the microwave and then I'm... You don't even boil the water anymore? Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And I need the water.
For me, it's what you said earlier about the research about ritual. Because as a stand-up, you have to be very quick, you have to be on your feet, you have to be very improvisational if you're going to have any level of... success right yeah and yet I believe the reason why I have any level of success at stand-up is because I have employed so many rituals into my daily life so let me ask you a question when i leap out of bed in the morning every morning saying oh my god i'm late
Oh my God, there's six things that I have to do and I have time for only three. But if I do this every single morning, does that count as a ritual? No, that's pandemonium. I don't know what the ham sandwich that is. That sounds a bit like... Michelle tried to convince me of the benefits of slowing down. This right here... Yes. Gives me an immense amount of pleasure. This. This right here. Listen.
I can see that and I'm so happy for you. Like, I'm very happy in this very moment. I just don't end and I have the... Is that what is that walking in? ¡Gracias! What was that? Much to our surprise, a rat from the patio outside decided to join us. It stood up on its hind legs and poked its head through the doorway. OMG, Shankar, he's out there. Close the door. Do you see him? I will note that in this instance even though I said I would be unable and unequal to the situation.
Michelle did not leap up to close the door. Michelle, who turned her face to the wall and said, OMG, that was her response to the coming catastrophe. And she turned to me, the person who is not widely advertised as being the leading man. I need to close the door. You rose to the occasion. I did indeed. So maybe there's something to these traditions after all. From now on, I'm going to make sure I sit facing the door so I can always deal with incoming
After my heroic gesture, we finished our tea almost 90 minutes after entering the tea house. It was a rare pleasure to slow down, to discover the ritual of tea making and to see how much it enhanced our experience. She has to make the tea that way in order for it to turn out this way. If not, if she breaks that ritual, it's a different taste. If she microwaves it and sticks it in. Yeah, like if she does the Shankar method. The Shankar method, yes. And we won't have this.
We wouldn't have this experience. It would be much more efficient though, I would add, but we wouldn't have the experience. Efficiency doesn't always equal happiness. So people have been telling me for many years. Michelle, I want to thank you for talking with me today. This has been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure too, Michelle. Okay Adam, I'm relaxed after that cup of tea, the ritual of the tea making, but what do you think? Do you have enough material to come up with an original song?
Well, I'm not relaxed because I'm going to have to put this all together, but I'm going to go back into the old skunk bear cave and see what I can come up with. All right. Let's see what you do. See you in a minute. Through the magic of audio, Adam has gone away for several days and now has re-emerged from his skunk bear cave. How did it go, Adam? Well, it went okay.
I sort of was going off the sort of back and forth nature of this whole episode. So imagine a less talented Gershwin brother writing a a musical probably called something like all aboard with a train theme. Okay. Ginger Rogers, Fred Astaire have a little back and forth here. And you do this all by yourself? Well, I got a friend, Amanda McQueen, to help me out. So yeah, here we go. Alright, let's hear what you came up with. I think you'll find I've got... I suppose.
Adam, that was fantastic. Thank you so much. You don't exude much gratitude. I love it. Oh, thank you so much for playing our game. Well, thanks so much for having me on. Will you be back again? I definitely will. Great. Well, let's give this... Here's what I'm thinking. How about Coldplay? Let's keep thinking on it. This is our very first
There are a lot of people we have to thank. The Embry Family Foundation and specifically Lauren Embry and Diane Hose us get off the ground and so did Heather and Paul and Marsha. And enjoy. We couldn't have gotten off the ground Special thanks today to Adam Cole and Amanda McQueen. You can see more of Adam's work on Tumblr and YouTube at Skunk Bear. This episode of the Hidden Brain Podcast is produced by Cara McGurk-Allison and Maggie Penman.
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Get 15% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe at prolonlife.com slash Pandora promo. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. Products are not intended to diagnose, treat, or prevent disease. See site for details. I've never felt like this before. It's like you just get me. I feel Fuck you. That's so And it doesn't hurt that you are gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. ¡Gracias!
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