Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey Human podcast. This is episode 433, and my guest is Lynn Yip. Lynn and I met through my friend, Jake. She and I met in real time last summer, and I immediately loved her. She's really cool, very smart, very fun. She's Malaysian Chinese and has lived all over the world. She currently resides in Paris. She's a polyglot, and she works in the sustainability side of marketing with makers and artists.
Really fascinating woman. Love her to death. Really happy that she said yes when I asked her to be on the show. In other news, check out heyhumanpodcast.com for links and to learn more about my guests and the show. Hey Human Podcast is on YouTube under official Susan Ruth. I'm on patreon at susanruthism. My TikTok and Instagram is also susanruthism.
Check out susanruth.com to learn more about me and my other artistic endeavors, and find my albums on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your music. Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, and thank you for listening. Be well, be kind, be loved. Here we go. Lynn Yip, welcome to Hey Human. Thank you, Susan. It's lovely to see you.
Lovely to see you too. I'm I'm glad we had this chance because I know you're only visiting for a short while, and I met you through my dear friend, Jake, and you are his honey bunny love love, and I adore Jake. Of course, I adore you, and I've gotten to know you a little bit while you've been here. Not obviously, we haven't had a whole lot of time together, but a little bit. And I thought, you know what? As long as you're in town, might as well get you on the show. I love that.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm it's an honor to be here. I love the show. I love the idea of it. I love the, the philosophy of it. And, you know, I feel like if we lived the way the show is, it's it would, you know, it just makes life more beautiful. Thank you. That's a big compliment. I appreciate that. Well, let's jump in. Tell me where you grew up, what shaped you as a person? I grew up in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia. And, what shaped me as a person? Well, that's a big question.
It was interesting because Malaysia is a country that is we have a lot of different cultures that we grew up with and everybody has their place, an allocated place in the country, and it's not always comfortable, but it is somewhat peaceful at the same time. What do you mean by allocated place? So Malaysia is made of 3 different ethnicities
and so 3 different main cultures. I mean, there's more than 3, but the main cultures are the Malays who are what they consider in the country, the people of the land, and then the Chinese who are considered immigrants and because we are, and the Indians from South India mostly, and, who are also considered immigrants. So it's a real, it's a really at the same time, great mix of cultures that are very well integrated into one another.
Also, we feel our difference a lot because, like, in the social political sense, and somehow everyone just accepts their position. Like the Malays have privilege. This is a widely known thing and, because we are considered to be outsiders. But then we have known this for a long time and we've kind of like lived with it. They have, you know, it upsets people to a certain point of feeling like you're not being a part of where you're from.
And, but at the same time, you find it, you find your home in your own way. It means something to you in your own way. You interact with it in your own way. You know, you make your own relationship with it. There's a big, filmmaker, one of the biggest filmmakers in Malaysia. I can't, you know, I'm just can't remember her name now. There are not many, actually. It's been like many, many years.
And, and she said she was, she was brilliant, and she made a lot of movies about the culture, about this topic, you know, and she's fantastic. And she was a trans woman. And that was very, very a big deal in Malaysia. And she said being, being anything other than Malay in, in Malaysia is like being in love with someone who's not in love with you. Oh, wow. That's powerful. Yeah. It is. And we live that way. And Is it a caste systems sort of, or is it hierarchical?
Like, you can't get a certain job? Or is it more the vibe? The the vibe is actually pretty good. Like, people individually with neighbors, with, you know, community, the vibe is great. It's a, but in terms of policies and like certain laws, like you can't start a business, if you don't start one with a Malay person or when they build a building like the choice, like, for an apartment building, for instance, like the choice places are, you know, for, first of all, for the Malay then.
I feel like I haven't lived in Malaysia for many years for almost 20 years. And so, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of things that are changing, which is great, you know? And, but what the beauty of Malaysia is that we learn to live peacefully with all of that, because on a neighborly level, on a relational level, on a friendship level, we know that this is not a personal thing, you know, and we want to keep that peace. We want to see each other, you know, as a person and individually. I
think a lot of people do. I grew up in a home with the Malays on the one side and the Indian neighbors on the other. And we shared everything. Like our cultures, we celebrated all of each other's holidays. We never returned a Tupperware empty. We, you know, things like that. And so that was how I grew up. And I grew up with a wonderful house, like, a woman who took care of us, like, you know, a home and children. And I grew up with her and she was my first friend. And
I, you know, and that was wonderful. And I learned to cook with her. I learned to play with her. And that was a big part of our culture. So going over the Himalayas? She's Chinese. Chinese. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And she had 10 children, and she was our housekeeper and our nanny, and she lived with us. And she had 10 children. I didn't know that growing up. And she spent 5 days or 6 days a week with us. And well, she had 10 children to feed, you know, and she didn't bring them up
because she was bringing me up. And that was, and that was the life that she had. And that's an extraordinary life, isn't it? Did you meet her children? Yeah. I met her daughter a couple of years ago. About about 8 years ago. I met her daughter after, because I lost contact with her for many years. And I told my father one day, I said, you have to find her because she's getting older. And and I want to see her before, before,
you know, it's too late. And because she had a falling out with my mother, when I was like 13 or something. And so I was not allowed to see her for many years, and I said, I have to find her. And so he found her, and I met her daughter for the first time, and that's how I knew she had 10 children. Her daughter had bought a house. So she grew up and, you know, she had a good life. And she bought her house next to herself. So she lived next to her daughter with a 3 legged dog. And it was lovely.
And I went to see them and her daughter said to me, oh, you know, like, she was so kind and, and so wonderful. And throughout the course of the conversation, I realized that, that she had 10 children and her daughter had grown up without her mother because her mother had brought me up. And she was so generous and so kind. There was not a single ounce of resentment or anything like that, you know. And she treated me as if I was
family. She was like, oh, you know, of course, like, I would I mean, I can't wrap my head around that. So was your family a family of means then? So that was sort of the way that works? No. It's a very middle class thing in Malaysia to have that, actually. It's in I guess it's we were comfortable, I guess, maybe upper middle class. You know, you never really understand, wealth or the lack of it when you're a child.
I guess now when I think about it, I think about the stuff that my mom had as a woman and I was like, well, I can't afford that. I was like, maybe, maybe we were doing alright, you know. The Malaysian culture, does it allow for marriage between Malaysians and Chinese or Malaysians and Indians? Or is that a no no? Yeah, the Malay, yeah, Malays can marry anybody, as long asMalays do not have freedom of religion, of faith. So they have to be Muslim. Malaysia is a Muslim country, but only for
the Malays. So they don't have a choice but to be Muslim. And so if you were to marry into a traditional Malay family, you have to convert. And if you don't convert, I don't think they actually give you the marriage license. I don't think you're allowed to. Some people, they fall in love and they leave the country. And they so they can be or some people just convert because, you know, like they say, if you don't believe, then, you know, like, baptism is just some water in your head.
Sure. You know? And so it doesn't really matter. And a lot of people do that. They just do it so that they can be accepted by society, accepted by the family, tend to be together. When rules exist like this in a country, do you find that the young people are bucking against it? Or do you think in that part of the world, they just go along to get along? I think a lot of people go along to get along. And they not just that, I think some people really integrate it.
They really embrace it and they find their they find purpose and meaning in it in order to survive. They don't live it as a lack of freedom. They live it as duty and honor and values as well, you know? And there are some who just can't stand it and they leave or they're against it, or they make their own lives and they go against that, you know, they stand up for what they believe and they choose a more difficult life. I have a friend
who did that. And it's not between a Malay and anybody else, it's between the Chinese and Indian, because there's also that there's a lot of racism, you know, for to call it what it is. And as well, there's a lot of othering and, an intolerance of difference and class, like, consciousness, I guess, divides. And I have a friend who came from a very, very wealthy family and she fell in love with a kind of rock star musician, Indian guy that she just loves, and and
she just gave it all up. And she moved to Australia. To be with him? I'm gonna do this. Yeah. She's I don't care if you you're okay with it or not. I'm I love this man, and I'm gonna and that's why it's gonna you know? That's really interesting. The overall culture is a particular thing that has subculture within it. And then within those subcultures, there's also very strict ideology and decision making that is not autonomous.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There, you know, where I come from, the, the whole idea of community and the other, the next person, the person in front of you and around around you is a big deal. We do that is a good thing and a not so good thing. You know, it can, it can create really a really good life because you, humans, I feel, are very community based, you know, animals. And, we need, it takes a village. And, you know, we do, we seek family and community, and that's very strong where I come from.
But there are also there's also a lot of intolerance and rules in community that communities are often afraid of difference, afraid of nonconformity. Were you raised as a Chinese person? Were you raised Buddhist? Or what was your faith growing up? I was I was Protestant. My parents were very religious. Oh, wow. Okay. That throws me for a loop. Okay. Yeah. But within, yeah, but within the family, within my family, like extended family, because extended family is a
big thing. Like they have say, and we used to spend our weekends, at, on Saturdays, it would be at my grandparents' house on my mother's side. And on Sunday, Sunday dinner at the grandparents' house on my father's side, because that's the prime day. It's like eat, drink, man, woman. I think that story, that movie was about the girls going home to have dinner with their father, right? Every Sunday or something. And it's a, it really is
a thing. And so the extended family was Buddhist, but also culturally Buddhist and by Buddhist by some sort of traditional practice. It's not really, and it's not the Buddhism that you see in yoga studios here, you know, it's, it's very much based on ancestral worship, the idea of prosperity. There was not, I never heard a lot of Buddhist philosophy come out of those things. We had altars at home and food that was offered to the ancestors on the altars and that kind of Buddhism.
And my parents became very, very stout Protestants. I think because they were, they got into the church because of Sunday School, because Sunday School is essentially, now that I've grown up and realized it, free childcare over the weekends. Right? Makes sense. Yeah. And so, so they got into it and they found a lot of meaning in it. And that was, that was how I was brought up. It was it was not my my favorite experience. Well, I was just gonna ask you about
that. So how does one growing up in a place where identity sounds pretty important all around. How does one develop one's sense of self? Oh, interesting. You don't. It's not I know it sounds a little crazy, but it's not, that's not the first thing on the menu, you know, because it's all about community and duty and being a good something to somebody. That's, I hope I'm not, as I'm saying this, I hope I'm not making a caricature, you know, in my, you know, for in
my head, in my own head. But that's somehow I feel that, that the sense of self is not the first thing on the agenda. The, you know, it's about, it's about being a good person, a good daughter, a good son, a good wife or a good husband, and then a good parent, a good worker, a good homemaker. That's, the identity is based on roles. I learned very late in life to develop a sense of self.
And, but everybody has it naturally, obviously. And you live with that existential loneliness of, you know, kind of wandering the desert of that, you know, and then like coming upon things that define you as like, as if you're blind and you're in a room and you're trying to figure out what the environment is by kind of like feeling around in the dark. And that's what it felt like trying to find myself, a sense of self anyway.
When do you think your first moment was then of discovering who you are? Wow. It was so late. I think it was super recent. It was maybe, you know, it was after it was after my divorce. That was about maybe 7 years ago now. And that was, that was a huge thing. It was a huge moment in my life that kind of, it was like a, what do you say? Like in French we say, you know, like a tearing of something. And I guess it's a cleaving,
right? A cleaving from a certain idea and, you know, that, and that was a moment where I was alone in France, and I was in a country that is very much about the self, right? And I was cleaving from the role of, of wife and the idea of being a woman that I had before. And then that was when I began to, have, and I had no family near me. I was struggling with my job because I had a business and I closed it at the same time. It was all going down
at the same time. So, so you're sitting there and you're like, it's like a tabula rasa, you know, like you, you, you don't have all the anchors that, that kind of, you know, the, all the landmarks that you would use to, to navigate this life that you thought, you know, you wanted to live. And so I had to sit there and go, wow, what is this? And who am I? And what does it mean to be me? That must have been scary, but exciting at the same time. Oh, yeah. It was terrifying.
It was the first time I felt fear actually, like really visceral fear in my life. And it was also a time of like financial difficulty, you know, on a very important level. And I was like, wow, when you don't know how you're going to pay rent, and I never had that problem, you know? And you don't know if someone's going to rent you an apartment, you don't know, you know, and you're really in a culture that's very different
than yours. And that was And at the same time, like you don't know if you've made the biggest mistake of your life, you don't know if you can trust yourself, that was the first time I felt fear in my life. I'm actually usually too stupid to be afraid. You are not stupid. You can either be really brave or really dumb. Sometimes I feel like I've done things that appear brave, but it's really because I didn't understand the danger I was going into.
That is brave, isn't it? To to jump into something again, this is what has been said over and over again for millennia is that bravery is not the absence of fear. Bravery is being afraid and doing it anyway. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like I did a lot of things in the absence of fear. No. Did you get married at a young age? No. I got married at, I think, 30 31, I think, if I remember correctly. Those years seem like such a blur to me. They're so clear
and so unclear at the same time. It's as if it's been put in a shelf in my mind that is, you know, it's there, but it's like hard to get to, you know? Do you have siblings? I do. I have a sister. She's in Hong Kong. She's 3 years older than me. Are expectations for youngest daughter different than eldest daughter in your culture? Yes. Yes. I actually, I actually grew up with no expectations on me because everything was put on my sister. To her
detriment, really, it's been, it's really unfair. And I, you know, I wish I could have taken that away from her. But, you know, it is also something very odd to have people expect nothing of you. That, that, that also shaped a big part of who I am. Yeah. And I gotta say, like, I don't think it's said enough, how expectations can really hurt somebody, but the lack of it can also do this, do that, You know? You learn expectations to a certain, point is a vote of confidence.
It's to say, I look at you and I believe that you can do this. To a healthy point, parental expectations can be a way for the parent to want to self actualize through somebody else, through their children. It could be an image thing that's very much, present in Asian culture. And it also can be a way of, like, living vicariously through their their kids, all the things that they couldn't do. That is kind of unfair and difficult.
But a good amount of expectation to say, you know, I see who you are and, yeah, you know, and I think that you can get here because I have a little bit more, I can see you from the outside. That that can be good. Yeah. I think that might in fact be a universal parental thing, that vicaria, perhaps. Mhmm. I think we see that a lot here as well. We can't we we can't help it, I think. People can't help it. Yeah. Do you have children? No. No. Okay. I didn't think so, but I couldn't quite remember.
Yeah. Yeah. What brought you to France? Was that the marriage or was that a leap of faith or both? It was it was the marriage. It was I was living in New York when right before we got married. And then I'm I was gonna stay in New York actually. And, and then we decided to get married and I moved to France. Is it hard to be a global citizen given the state and nature of the world at large these days with all the restrictions and the concerns and the the xenophobia.
I'm just gonna throw that word out there. Yeah. Yes. Yes and no. You get used to it. With age, it gets a little heavier because you have a hankering for home, you know, with, with time, over time. I feel like life is a journey home And that, that idea becomes stronger and stronger inside of you as time goes by, inside of me at least. And home is not a place, but we can confuse it for a place, know, because we're looking for it in, in many different places,
in many different ways. Right? So a sense of belonging, a sense of not feeling like we're, we're a foreigner, you know, that can be difficult sometimes. In France, it is difficult for me in Paris because I have an accent when I speak that is very, you know, obvious. So, and also France is still a little bit behind in the, you look, you know, because of your skin color, and then you have an accent and immediately you're a foreigner and it's, and they can't not talk, not point it out to you.
And I think it's very kind of normal, you know, it's natural. I think human beings are naturally that way, but it can get tiring because you do want to just blend in and fit in and belong. And, you know, after so many years. I lived in New York for two and a half years and I'd never felt that. Nobody ever, you know, they nobody ever made me feel like I was a foreigner. And I loved that. I loved it. Like, it didn't matter what accent I had or or how I grew up or what I looked like. You know?
I love that about America, actually. I think there's a big melting pot here and there are, you know, for most days as a foreigner, I didn't feel that, that difference. I did, like in certain instances, in a very pronounced way. But it was exceptional, you know? Like, yeah. It was Yeah. Exception to the yeah. To the world. Exceptional. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Not in the exceptional, like, exceptional. An exception to the world. Yeah. Same thing. No. I mean, you're right both ways.
That's really interesting. I think it is frustrating that humans don't tend to see human first. They find whatever difference and or similarity they can connect to. Yes. Yes. And what's ironic about that, of course, is the one thing we all have in common is that we're human. But that's not what we do. Right? Our ego or whatever it is that's leading us by the nose decides to Yeah. Pick out the other stuff first. I have a feeling that that's about safety, you know?
It's that we feel safer, in more in the immediate, in the immediate. We feel safer with people who look like us, who resemble us. We feel like that's, what's the safest, that's the safest, you know? It depends how we've grown up as well. It depends what people have told us. You know, I feel like, a lot of I have I was just telling Jake the other day, I have a friend who's a kindergarten teacher and she's Canadian Chinese and she teaches in France. And it was Chinese New Year, the
Lunar New Year. And she wrote in Chinese on the board, in Mandarin on the board. And then, and she taught them how to say happy Chinese New Year in Mandarin. And they were so excited because the kids, I think they were like, what, 4 or something? And they were like, how do you know how to do this? And she said, well, I'm Chinese. And they were like, what do you mean? Like, what are you how are you Chinese? You know, and because they couldn't they didn't look at
her face. They didn't look at her skin color, her features. It didn't make, you know? And I was like, isn't that incredible? You have to be taught these differences. I love those videos of the little best friend kids, and they'll be side by side, you know, one black child, one white child. They're they're sitting, and the interviewer says, how are you different? And the first thing they say is, oh, he likes bananas,
and I don't like bananas. Or it'll be a kid in a wheelchair and a kid that is, not in a wheelchair, and they'll say, how are you the same? How are you different? And it's never about the thing that you would think it would be about. Because to your point, they don't see things in that context. Yeah. Yeah. And we forget that we learned this. We do. You know, and to what a shame that we learned this. What a shame that it was put into us.
It does break my heart. Right? And such a waste of time because there's so much time in life to, actually to to to experience its beauty and that and to experience connection. And we take time away from that connection when when we are taught these things, you know, it it we have so many missed opportunities, and that's just so that's such a tragedy somehow. It is a tragedy, and it's to ourselves as well, the things that we compare and contrast. And I know I do it, where I think, oh, why am
I not good at this? Or why why can't I do this? Whatever it is, we do it to ourselves too. And that creates a separation. And I would go back again to childhood where somebody has to teach you to have fear and self loathing and doubts, as you said, limitations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because kids are fearless in general. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're all like, like intrepid and, intrepid and fearless and we don't know better than, you know, we just go,
go into it. Like, I, I think about, starting a business And when I started my business, I did a lot of things that a lot of people wouldn't have done, because they were taught not to. And I did it because I didn't know that we couldn't, and we shouldn't, or something. And some of those things worked out really well. And some of those things didn't work out. But, you know, I wouldn't have done the things that worked well if I was, if I list people who told me, well, you know, you don't do that.
And isn't that, I mean, it's good to be, to not know everything. Yeah. Right? Like, we strive to know everything because we feel safer. I am very much like that. I really I try not to be, you know, that's one of the things that I'm working on. Like, it's this false sense of control, right? Like, we try to control the situation, so that we can try to control an outcome, so that we can be safe and we can prevent pain.
And, yeah, I'm learning more and more that pain is, can be a guide and a gift, and it is the point it can be that point beyond our imagination that takes us to the place that we didn't know we could go. Yeah. It's scary though. Oh, absolutely. It is tricky to override those things. And again, fear takes forms all sorts of ways. Right? Hate, doubt, self abuse, obsession. Yeah. Overwork, overrunning, over exercising, overeating, under eating.
I mean, there's just so many things that it can look like. Yeah. Self abnegation. Is that a word? Is that I I my vocabulary is a little mixed up from the How do you speak? How many languages do you speak? 4. Yeah. I think you're doing fine. It becomes like a like one of those alphabet soups sometimes, you know, and it's like some words that work really well in certain language, and then it doesn't, like, when it becomes I'm speaking, like, a little bit of
Franglish now. It's like, I didn't realize that it would happen to me until until I met Jake. And this is the most English I've spoken for a couple of years, and I was like, wow, my English has gotten really weird. But, yeah, you know, we deny ourselves things, that's what I wanna say, like, you know, Yeah. Because of fear. Sure. I'm curious. I love asking this question of people that speak many languages. What language do you dream in? And does
it does it change around? Or is it constantly the same language? I think I dream in English. Yeah. I have a very strong relationship with English. Because I, I, I was because reading kind of saved me when I was a kid. And so it was my first you know, it's that first experience of reading a book and feeling like you would never be alone in the world because you have a book.
And, or you've read something that you've always felt, you know, but you couldn't put your words to, and suddenly the whole world felt safer. Yeah. So that, I had that feeling very much when I was a child from reading English books. And so and then I was writing, a bit, and I have a very kind of relationship with writing too. So that was I think that's why, because the language so important to me. It was always English. Yeah.
It's interesting. The universal language of dreams. It is a curious thing. What do you do for a living? Well, I'm about to start a new job next week. So I've been in the past 5 years, I've been basically like a brand manager for a for a company, a leather goods company. I've done a bunch of different things. And, but right now, so I'm about to to go work for a woman who's, who has, who's a, who has a grocer, like a grocery store, like in, in Paris and, and she's had it for 20 years and now she
wants to develop it. And so we're going to, so I'm her what she calls her Swiss army knife, like her right hand person. So we're gonna develop the business together. I'm going to assist her in that, and we're coming up with a line of food, like pantry food, like dry goods, that is sourced in in the purest places in the world. And so it's beyond organic. It's also how where it's grown and how it's grown and by who, you know, by whom? It's grown and Yeah.
Yeah, by whom it's grown. And we're doing a little tea bar and the coffee shop and like, you know, in Saint Germain des Prays in Paris. And that's gonna be really exciting. It's totally new thing for me, but I I love I'm a big foodie. You know, I I love food. I love feeding people. I love You're a good cook. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. I I I try. I love it. I just love I know I love shopping for food. I love markets. I love, it's a big part of my culture. Malaysian
culture is about food. It's about love is shown through feeding people. And, you know, the question is, have you eaten, you know, all the time, all throughout the day? And we, and we, we talk about dinner during lunch and, you know, and lunch during breakfast. And it's such a huge
part of my culture. And the older I get, the more I'm in, I'm becoming that, you know, that like in my culture, like the auntie who, who feeds people, you know, packs stuff for you in Tupperwares, you know, that, that woman that I'm becoming that woman. Oh my God. That's great. But, yeah. So I love that. I love this new job where I can
just fully obsess. I've been reading like Ruth Reichl and and Nigel Slater, like, all through summer and As a person who, for lunch, had a scoop of almond butter, a bunch of, Persian cucumbers and rice wine, and a bite of, sorry, no. I have, like, 7 snap peas. So I need somebody like this in my life. Oh, I wish if I lived here, you would be fed all the time. Guys. You have a Jake diet. He has the same, like, the scoop of peanut butter or almond butter, you know?
Same and then, like, whatever you want. Jake's I teased Jake horrendously when the first time I went to his apartment. I opened the I'm sure he told you this. I opened the refrigerator. I was like, Jake, I'm bad, but this is horrendous. It was just a, like, hot sauce, a ketchup, and some of those takeout packets of soy sauce. I was like, what are you eating, dude? Yeah. I know. I thought I wanted to think of grapes. Like, what are you eating, dude? Yeah. I know. I was like, what is this?
And his fridge is so big. I have, like, a tiny fridge. I'm like, we need to swap bridges. We need to swap kitchens. My fridge is tiny too. Do you have a sense of spirituality as a person who grew up surrounded by so many different cultures and religions? Yes. I, I don't, I have a very, I have, I think an unshakable awareness of the God shaped void. You know, I, I'm not religious. I have a very fraught relationship with religion because of how it went down in my family.
I take issue with the lack of, tolerance and inclusion and fear mongering, you know? And I know that not everybody in that religion is that way. And I think I've seen how my father has found peace and purpose and meaning in his religion that I don't like very much, but I, I, you know, I accept it for that and I appreciate it for that. But, for myself, yeah, I feel that. I feel the void.
I feel, I feel a sense of the divine that is, you know, that is in, I don't know, in people and in nature and in the moments of, that you can have between humans, between humans and animals, between humans and the environment. I guess that's my spirituality. Though we were just joking that if Rick Rubin started a cult, I would join it. Yeah. He's a deep philosopher for sure. Yeah. He watched a lot of his videos where he's pontificating
about the nature of the universe. This is an interesting person. Yes. Wonderful. Yeah. Really interesting. And he I feel like he's really calibrated, you know, in the best way, his listening and his observation and his speaking, it's he almost just he listens and hears and understands, yeah, with with the the kind of attention that that we should always strive to have, I think, and and speaks also with that. And there's something really magical, like really precious about that. I agree.
Yeah. It's a the art, the true art of listening, I think is a duality that is both everything matters, nothing matters, and I'm not important in this moment, but I am you as well. Yeah. Which is like a weird combo, right? If you're if you're speaking, I'm not important, but I also have the ability to see myself in you. Therefore, there's this communion happening, but also a sense of I don't matter in in your your your the one voicing that part of me
right now. I don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm explaining it or not. It totally it makes sense, and I can see it in your podcast. I can see that you do that in your podcast. And I think there is also I see you also doing, being that person, you know, seeing because that's also a good listener, to listen and try to understand from the perspective and the context of that person. And then that's when you it takes you outside of yourself, and you and that's real curiosity too.
Yeah. How, you know Thank you. Not to take that compliment too. You're so nice to me. We didn't mention the name of the store that the grocery store. It's called Hedoni. Hedoni, like, h e with an accent, d o n I e. But I, but I guess it has, a tie to, like, he he hedonist. That's where my brain went. But Yeah. Yeah. That's that's where my brain goes. I I hope it's not wrong. But because I've never asked her actually, the owner why, you know, but that's what
I imagined it's about pleasure. Maybe, you know, the French have a wonderful one of the things I love about living in France is this whole idea of the savoir vivre, the knowing how to live and the art of living. And part of the art of living is to make space and time for pleasure and to make time, and to allow time, for, you know, to do things with time. And that's really liberating and really nice and kind of, you know, it nourishes you.
But I still, I come from a culture where that is just like not done, you know, so I, if I, I've been on holiday, this is three and a half weeks, right? And I had to go out and do something for work today because my brain was going a little bit, like, I was getting, like, baby brain, you know, like, it was just kinda getting a bit soggy in my head. And, and also I start feeling a little anxiety. It's, you know, not very good at being hedonistic.
But I'm glad you had that break. It's nice to have a break like that before you go into a new job or a new career. It's good Oh, yeah. To to Like a reset. Yeah. Yeah. It's a definite reset. And Jake is such a lovely human. What a great person to do that around. Yes. Yes. He's a wonderful person to do that around. And and, yeah, just to and he knows how to he's he works really hard and Work really hard. He has a fantastic work ethic.
But he also he's also so much fun, you know, and I'm not like, I'm not saying this in a self deprecating way, but I'm not good at having fun. Like, I'm not like a let loose person. Like, I don't know, I'm very uncool. Like, I'm not like, you know, I don't dance, and I don't know how to be like, over top with things, and, and, you know, kind of like, let go and like be excessive. I am not, I'm very like kind of model child type, you know, it's just from my childhood, and Jake is
so much fun. And I love that about him. You know. It reminds you that, you know, you can have fun and you can break some rules and you can, you know, do this or do that or, you know, that's nice. Yeah. That's a good balance. I'd love I I know we're running out of time. I would love for you to tell the story of how you 2 met because it's so rom com to me. That was, okay. So so I was, I met him the first time in Paris. I was working in in the shop that I was working in my shop.
And I was not supposed to be there on that day, actually, because that was not my day. On a Saturday I had, you know, and so I was in there because my colleague was off on trip and in walks Jake and, and Jeff, who he was working with then. And Jeff was insisting that he should buy a bone cover for his phone because he has no protection on his phone and it's a leather goods shop. And so he was like, you get a leather one because, you know, it's better. And so he's like, okay.
And he asked me if I have one and I had one and he said it, he tried it on and it was fine. And he was like, you know what? I'm not going to use this. I'll never use this. You know? And I said, well, if you're not going to use it, then you shouldn't buy it. And so we talk a little bit, you know, because, yeah, just like that, you know? And then they lead. Did you have a spark that initially, did you think, wow, this You know what? That
is cute. I no. I thought he was really cool, you know, but I didn't I know because I was working. And I, you know, I, I work in, in that leather goods store. It's the, it's very, it's a very male centered store, you know? So there's a lot of men who come in, come through that store. And when you're a woman who works in a shop like that, and in, France, you know, where the culture is different, it's very, you kind of have your, your, your guard up. And I always had that, because I wanted
to be, you know, I want credibility. I want to want to be taken seriously and to have the boundaries. So no, not really. And, but I just thought, you know, he's like a cool guy, you know, really nice. And two and a half weeks later, or 3 weeks later, I went to London to see Trevor Noah. This, he had a standup, like event there, like show. And then I went to a store because I was with a friend and she wanted to buy a hunting jacket. And I went to this store on Notting Hills, Notting Hill.
It's on Portobello Road, actually. Yep, it's called 2 8 4, or 282. Wonderful store. And, and my friend's like trying on all these codes, and in walks Jake and Jer. And I was like, wait a minute. And Jake's, you know, his hair was, down to his, like, just to show, like shoulder, like the top of his shoulder or his chin or something. White blonde hair. Yeah. White blonde hair. And so I was in the back of the store and he walks in and so, you know, where the light
is. And so he's walking and then he's got like, there's this guy with that halo of hair and, and behind him is Jeff, who's, you know, dressed in he has a very particular style. Right? And so I look at them and I was like, wow, okay. And and I and I say to I I think I I say in generally to the both of them, I was like, I'm, I saw you guys in, in Paris 3 weeks ago or two and a half weeks ago. And, and they look at me and I go, you're, you're the phone case girl.
And so we, you know, we were in the store for a long time because my friend was trying on clothes and I was just pottering around. And so I thought Jake and I would talk and then we're like, oh, you know, and he said, do you wanna, have lunch or, and, and Jeff was like, you should have lunch with Jake because, because I have a meeting and he's alone. And, and so Jake had lunch with me and my friend.
And after the lunch, my friend said to him to me, and she said, if that guy asks you out, or like, if that guy shows interest in you, and you don't respond, I will be really mad at you. Because I was on my 1 year dating ban. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I was like, I'm on a dating ban. I was like, no, I'm on my 1 year dating ban. And I was like, he's not going to get in touch. He lives in Los Angeles. And he got in touch, and and we were just chatting, and that's how it started.
Yeah. Well, from this end, when he came back, he was very excited about having met you, and it was really cute to see. Yeah. No one is really he's a really sweet person. But the chances of that interaction happening twice is so astronomical. I know, isn't it? I mean, I was like, don't read too much into it. You know, I was I was very careful and I'm like, I know it's really it's really tempting. It's very kind of like Nancy Meyers thing, you know? And but I'm like, don't read into it,
Like, just be careful. Don't give it too much importance. And Meanwhile, the ancestors are, like, listen, bitch. Yeah. You're like, listen. Like, what do we have to do around here? You know? I'm like, no, it's fine. You know, like, do we have to, like, strike you with lightning? But it's it's, you know, and and there are moments where I regret not, you know, that, do you see how I'm not fun? Like, this is it. This is how this is how I'm not fun,
you know? You're fun. I've I've been around who you are fun. But it's nice to believe in a bit of magic, you know, and to to feel that. How did you allow yourself to have that when you when you weren't necessarily that kind of person? What made even to come here and and hang out for 3 weeks. And, I mean, I know he went there and hung out for a little while, but still it takes a lot of courage. Yeah. I think it's the same situation where
I didn't really weigh it. It's that I know now how rare it is to meet a really good person that, you know, like you can, like, obviously I'm attracted to Jake and obviously he's a very attractive person. And, but beyond that, you know, I think he's a really good person. And I'm beginning, you know, to realize that in life, you don't meet that many people, that you can say, that's a good person.
You can say, I'm really attracted to this person, and I'm in like, you know, I'm infatuated with this person or something, you know, and that can happen a lot. But a good person that you meet and you connect with, that's really rare. And, you know, and I think it's worth exploring. And that's what it was, you know? He's got that good combination of, gentleness, but feel like if the shit went down, he would be the 1st to jump in and kick everyone's ass. I don't know
why he has that vibe. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He totally does. And that's kinda hot. Yeah. It is. Yeah. But yeah, he totally has that. He's got that, yeah, he's so, he's so sweet. And, but at the same time, he has something like, really badass behind it, you know, that he's not, you know, afraid to pull out, you know, if needed. Yeah. And he's got like the really wholesome guy thing, but at the same time, kind of like the bad boy thing as well, you know? And that was very unexpected. And I was like,
Wow. That's kinda cool. Well, it's all very exciting. And I think it's a good lesson, you know, hearing your story, especially, I think, from the woman's point of view because that that is a risk because you risk safety. Besides emotional safety, you risk physical safety to jump into something. And Absolutely. So it is a reminder that there are good connections to be made. Yes. Yes. There it is. And, you know, you risk, you know, anything to do with
love is a risk. Sure. I think, or like the and, you know, all the peripheral parts of it. And, yeah, and I'm I think I was willing to take that risk because I value that, you know? But trust me, it's not something that I it doesn't feel safe. It doesn't. It doesn't feel easy at all, you know, to do things like that. Like, but you've got to, I feel like you've got to do it. Do it anyway. That's bravery. Yeah. Right there. It's one of those things you're going to regret in life if you don't do it,
you know? Yeah. Those are the major things you regret, you know? And I really believe that we do regret the things we don't do more than the things that we do. And when, when, you know, this happens, like you meet somebody twice in 2 different countries in a span of 3 weeks and you cannot, you know, do something. But it's also that Jake was very, he was very charming as well. Like he's a great communicator. He's really funny. And that helps, you know? It makes you forget
all the danger. But we had a moment where, where, you know, like, I think his mother was concerned that I could, you know, that he could go to Paris, and I could be a murder a murderer too. That's true. Right? Like Yeah. He could be in danger too, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. We don't think about that, but that could happen. Yeah. Well, if you Jury is still out, either one of you could be a serial killer. We're just gonna wait and see. I know. Right? Maybe we're a
plot twist. If you're both a serial killer. That's the plot twist. Yes. Exactly. And we'll see if it's a serial surprise. Right? That would be a great, Romeo and Juliet story without the families. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Tell people how they might find you on adventures or you know, I don't are you on social media? I can't remember. I am, but I just it's just because I had a store before the home decoration store and I had my Instagram for that store, but I'm not on social media in
general. I don't post anything because, you know, I don't post anything about my life. You leave tomorrow to go back. What are you gonna do to celebrate your last day? Oh, what are we doing? We're going to Musso in France tonight. Yummy? Yeah. And yeah. And we're celebrating Jake's movie release. Yay. And we're because Terra Firma comes out to to not today. It came out today on streaming. So so we're we're going to do that. And
yeah, so that'll be a dinner tonight. We went to Canter's the other day over there. Oh, I love Canter's. Yeah. Oh, I love it. It was so good. That was the best pastrami sandwich I've ever had. And sweet potato sandwiches. Yeah. Isn't it the best? And we were seated in a booth that, next to a framed copy of Ruth Reichl's review. And I felt like I was going to temple, you know, and that was like the altar I was praying at. I love it. Fantastic. It was great. It's been a wonderful trip,
and I was I'm glad. Something. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad you've had a good experience. I'd I would have no doubt that Jake would show you an amazing 3 weeks. So I'm glad you've had that. It's been yeah. It's been really amazing. Yeah. I've I've I've seen a lot of the city, like yeah. He's been driving a lot. Like, I've been, you know, like, the city is so big. That's how you know somebody from LA really likes you is that they're willing to drive you to all those places because you know
Yeah. That means a lot. I know. I know that that I I see that. I was, like, wow. That really means a lot. And I love LA, I love LA is a real melting pot. And I always think that you can tell if it's a real melting pot, by the authenticity of the different types of food in different communities. You know, I had Thai food here that was better than in Thailand. And, you know, it was so good. It was super authentic. And I'm like, I love that that community,
was able to preserve and share that. And, and I think that says something about, about the city, you know. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, come back soon and then I need to come to France Cause I've never been, I've been to Portugal airport. I've never actually gone to experience France at all. You must come. You'll stay with me. Okay. But in my tiny little place, but you must come. The tiny place is part of the experience. You blew my mind when you told me about the squatting thing. Can we talk about
that really quick? I'm I'm just so flabbergasted by this. Oh, yeah. If if you, if somebody breaks into your apartment and lives there for more than I think 48 or 72 hours and that apartment and, you know, you can't kick them out. That's a, that's a thing it's, but it's not that common. And, as it's not that common in Paris, but I actually saw a documentary on it. And that was mind blowing. That was like in
France, right? Like in actual houses where many people moved in and cut electricity, and put generators in, and no, that's the tenant is very well protected in France, as workers are very well protected as opposed to employers. So, yeah. And, oh, and if somebody, if somebody stops paying rent, I think in winter, you can't kick them out or something. There's like, there are laws like that. It's it's wild. Yeah. It is wild. Well, anyway, thank you so much for
talking with me today. I really appreciate it, especially knowing this is your last day for you to take the time. I really I think that's great. Well, thank you for having me. It's such, it's such an honor and a a great pleasure. It's been such a cool conversation. I love talking about these things with you. Yeah. And, yeah, I I love I love your questions. And, yeah, I wish we could hang. I know. Nay, I'll come to France or you come back and we'll figure we'll meet
up somewhere else. Yeah. You're such a wonderful person to talk to. Thanks. I love that. I love your humanity. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate that. It's Thank you. We need more of that in life. That's that's that's what makes it special. Well, right back at you. I think that you, like myself, are a human of the world. And the more we're out there, the the more likely there's more of us and we it kinda spreads like wildfire as we remind people that it's it's not as difficult as it seems.
Yeah. It isn't. Because we have each other. And we always find our you know, we find each other. Yeah. Yeah. We really do. I think everybody does. They find new people. I agree. And that's going home, you know? Yes. Absolutely. It's like Gilda, the weak, the good witch says to Dorothy, you had it all along. You had the ability to be home all along because it was never outside of herself. Right? It's always in us. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for listening, everybody. Bye. Bye, love. Bye. Bye. See you.
Great. Review and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. Bye.