Hey, humans. How's it going? Thank you so much for thing. I really appreciate it. Thank you for subscribing to hey on itunes. It helps to get the numbers up and story out. Thank you for telling your friends about hey, human and because they tell their friends, and it is exponential. And if there's anything on any of these shows that you would like to talk to me about, please email me My email is Susan at hey human podcast dot com.
If you know some interesting people that you think would be good for this go, let me know. If you listen to a podcast, and you have questions for a previous guest, let me know. Some of these, I guess I've had... I have more questions for. So definitely gonna have some people coming back. Oh, and also, if you're in the Maryland area, September tenth and eleventh. I'm gonna be performing
music. I'm a singer song as well, performing music at Chat Bud Winery, and and that is in Chesapeake City, Maryland. I'll be performing with in a round. That's what we saw writers call it in around with Megan Lin and Paul Jenkins and Sam Brooke. So it's gonna be a really great weekend of new sick and wine, what a combo. This particular episode is with Karen Lynch. She is a retired police officer, San Francisco police officer, and she was 1 of the first female officers in San Francisco.
So that's a very cool thing. She wrote a memoir, which I devoured. It's really good. It's called good cop, bad daughter. And, gosh. I mean, I let the interviews fee for itself, but she's a delightful woman, and I really enjoyed speaking with her Alright. Karen Lynch. Hey, Human podcast. Hello? Hi. Can you see me? Let's see Front camera. Okay. Let's see. Okay. I see you and then okay. There's the. There should be a button that says camera? Is it too dark?
I'm part of in the corner of my kitchen and there realize that it's a little darker than I thought it would be. No. You look great. Can you see me now? Where you are. Yay. Okay. Good. Hi. Okay. Fine How are you? I'm well. How are you? Good. It's good to meet you. It's good to meet you? Yeah. I'm gonna let's see here. I'm the my microphone. I've got I've got 2 computers running at the same time. So all very exciting technology. But I'm only recording the audio. Not that.
So I'm just paying attention the levels to see where I am for things like the gain and the volume. Say to say a little something just I can see if I can. A little something. There you go. Gee. I look better on radio. It's totally y'all. Throw y'all. Okay. That should help. Cool. I'll you the fit. Right? I don't I don't know that much about you, but you're a musician. I was performing some writer.
And and, dabble in writing poetry and books and things, but nothing nothing concrete yet, and then painter. My painter or too. Right. Cool. And a podcast apparently. Wow was that pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So when I guess, we just get started really, welcome Karen. Thank you for being on a human. I really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. I, your book, right here, good cop, bad daughter. I loved it. I really did. I I
blew through it. I read it so quickly because I I saw myself, my childhood and a lot of things. I had it... I'm I'm sorry. No. That's what it is. I had some similar experiences. Nobody ever tried to set me on fire, but there were a couple other Hairy moments. So... Yeah. There's so I always talk to you about... It's it's your... First of all, you're 1 of the very first female cups in America. Correct? Well, I was 1 of the first generation. I was not actually the 1 of the first
in San Francisco. They first started hiring women in 19 77 at came in at 19 81. Okay But at that time, they were still quite that we were were not, and you know, there were very a few of us There were maybe a hundred at this time. So other people that paved the road for me. But by the time I got there, we were still not really wanted and I had to deal with a lot of that a lot of just amazing, I think to try to scare us that of doing the
job. Yeah. So that it was still kind of a sense that it it was kind of in our hands to prove because that when and could do the job because the popular belief was that we were too coward and too weak to emotional, all of these sort of stereotypes about women. And so we felt kind of a, a weight on our shoulders to prove that women could do this so that the doors would be open, but kept her. It would just take a minute of a man giving birth to realize that a woman is the a thousand times jog.
Well, it true. You know, in some ways, I think, maybe we fear pain a little less. I don't know. I mean, I think after you've given birth it does kind of, make you feel like I yeah, I can take it. Yeah. Yeah. So... Okay. Let's I guess start from the beginning. It's the it's always the best place to start. You were born in San Francisco. Yes. That came from the East Coast and they... They wanted to be writers, which is kind of ironic because They didn't have much success with
that. They both did write and they had some, but some poetry readings and staff during the beat. Each and. And they had bit word here by that whole beat Jack Kara. Sure. Or curling getty scene. Out. So I'm really happy. The 1 thing that I will never ever regret, but they moved out here and I was born here because it's such a great place to be. What was it like growing up in that in the height of the height Ash time frame.
Well, I had just such an citing childhood because, after my parents got divorced, my my mother hooked up with the man, I call my step father it's really just the live boyfriend who eventually saved me in the book gym. Yeah. And he when she met me me had a a bookstore, and they just at the beginning of sort of the whole hippie stage, they started, right into making buttons, button titles. That, became really popular and they were served by the cutting edge of the whole button and
bumper her sticker scene. And so the bookstore kind of dissolved and they opened the head heads shop that had posters and all the beautiful film posters in the Avalon and all of things that are now artwork that I sure wish Can. Oh, man. Yeah. But they would... It was fun, You know, they would sit around drinking 1 with other people in the store, other customers and friends and and they would shout out different ideas for button titles. Like, you know? I
mean, obviously, the... You know, what if they gave war nobody came? Those those kind of things, but to your your mom and jim and those couple friends, they invented these iconic sayings. Let's take a second to acknowledge that. That is incredible of it. Yeah. A lot of them they did. I mean, not that particular 1 I that 1 was 1 that they it but just I don't know where who invented that 1. But, it's silly went. Like, my mother would come up with stuff, like, go intercourse ice self or
oh, gosh. There's so many, Some of them, some moment but it was so fun. Just... You know, it was really creative and fun and and people, like, at some high school students would would come and hang out there, and it was really cool to see the beginning of that.
And and my my step father would deliver buttons and posters to the stores on hate, and we would bring them down and bring them in and I got to be, like, his little helper and I just remember walking down Eighth Street and people trying to sell us at to, you know, window pain, all that kind of stuff be advertising. I think it might have been before it was the illegal to use L lsd. Is nobody really knew what it was yet. Yeah. Timothy Lee had shouted from the rooftops at that point yet.
We should have kept a quiet at. No. No, actually, I think Ellis lsd was not the best thing the way the way people were taking it any way it's. You know. I mean, I'm sure it's it it could be really good if it was refined, but I think this... They were selling on the street have a lot of Other stuff? Other stuff in Yeah. I I spent AAA year in high school, every of every other weekend, my friends and I would go to the beach or whatever, and we would take acid and just have a ball.
Oh. Well you must've have had the good step. I think so Probably. Yeah. It was a great time. Miss thank you for sure. Oh, yeah. So I... I'm trying to think of the best way to approach this conversation, the book is great. That you wrote a memoir and about your childhood and growing up in your decision to join the police force when you're when your mom was considered them basically nazis. And I believe is what she referred to the police as First, this book, it read, like, a great fiction book.
That's a compliment. I mean, here's your life is playing out like this the craziest truth is stranger than fiction. Right? This crazy. I I couldn't put it down honestly. It would make a great movie if you ever think about doing that. But, actually trying to make it into a television and theories right now. So... Oh, that's great. My fingers crossed that it will all work out. Oh, I'll cross my fingers too. That would be amazing. Because I look for good cop, bad daughter, the series.
Yes. I mean, it's... It'd be a great series. For sure, like, could just picture the pluck child that is, you know. Yeah. So great. They're lot of different. Yeah. Angle you could do what it. Starts they're a lot of... Yeah. My life was so strange. I think that's why I I always felt compelled to write a more memoir. I wanted people to know. After I read Janet Walls book, the glass castle. Mh. I felt... That was in my thirties, I think. And I felt like, oh, my god.
I wish there had been books like this when I was a teenager because when you're going through it and you're watching the brady bunch or whatever and you think everybody else in America has this normal life when normal whatever that is. And you have this, you know, horrible thing and who... How were you supposed to navigate it. I just thought, you know, we need more books like this. We need books about people surviving bizarre and crappy childhood heads to sort of, like, just to
to give encouragement to other people. Yeah. We're right. To to young people almost. To talk about what what we're talking about because I read the book. So I know your story, everyone listening, although they'll read the little, you know, description when they listen to the podcast, talk about sort of the general aspect of of your life. Well, my mother was bipolar. And so the first step the first real
chapter after the pro log begins. I was committed to a mental hospital went before I was born because she was... I was in Ut, with her at Ag State Hospital. And, of course, I don't remember that. I would be very freaky if I do. I have a very good memory which is strange I can remember so much from my childhood did back to about Age 2. I think because it was so vivid and traumatic and all of that so many changing scenes.
And part of her mental illness was she would take me she loved to travel and she would take around the world, but she didn't like to fly. She was a flying. So we took trains and ships. But the problem was whenever she get to a place within a few weeks, months or
well, however long. She would have some sort of breakdown and end up either, abandoning me somewhere, and I would be, you know, wandering around loss did h 5 in Japan, or or in England, I ended up in a children's home for some time for a couple of months, I think. And so... And she would end up in these various site awards around the... Well, England was really. The only 1 outside the country, but ended up in Cy words quite frequently in California.
And so that was kind of, I I say the book is about how my mother trained me to be a police officer because in a lot of ways, learning how to deal with her had to calm her down when she was crazy, how to talk to her really sort of did give me a good idea of how to talk to people who are in altered states and and just to be very calm and things like that and, you know, not argue with them or or confront them things like that.
And in a in a unconscious way, I think and I didn't really realize this until I finish the book. And that's 1 of the interesting things about writing them memoir is you get a really sort of a more interesting look at your own life and all of the things that I tied together. And at some point, I realized that unconsciously, I had wanted to arm myself to protect myself from this woman who had tried to kill me who had done all these traumatic things to me. But the book isn't,
like, oh, my god. My mother was so horrible. She did all these horrible things to me. And that that it wasn't really, you know, the message I wanted to convey. I wanted to convey that, you know, she was a complex character. She did many. Wonderful things for me too. She taught me a left of books and and brought me to some really interesting places that I'm really glad I got to see and live in, and they were beautiful and interesting. Met so many people. But at the same time, you know, it it was
very difficult call. You have mentioned in the book about how your mother's eye color would change And every time when use... You mentioned I 3 times. And when you describe it, I I had no does that happen in mental illness that people I cut... Or is that something that was just a a metaphor or... No. It was real, and I don't know. I don't know that many more bipolar people well enough to know, you know, I would encounter them in the street at worked, but I wouldn't know what their eye color had
been before. But with my mother, it was absolutely true. It was not a metaphor for. She had very deep vivid blue eyes and when she would become when she'd go to a manic state, I would see her eye color lightning. Ai would become lighter and lighter till it the point where was almost like a white, gray, you know, It was not... It was very strange. And that even before they start saying, you know, as a child, I knew intuitively that whatever was going on in her brain was biochemical.
There was no doubt about it because I could see the chemical street of body changing. Right Mean, that to me that was the evidence. So... And and they knew that. I mean, they... At that time, the treatment was with them, which she refused to take, because it required blood tests that required, she... She was never, willing to do that and plus the Manic state. It's really exciting. It's like being on speed or something, I think. And I mean,
I don't know. I... I've never been manic per s. But I don't think when people are are in the Manic state they want to end. I think it feels good to them. It's just that it creates disaster for their lives and the people around those. Sure. Sure. So, like, when she tried to set you on fire, was that a manic phase or a depressed phase? That was her her manic phase was, when she would do those kind of things. The depressive phase, she would just day in, bed, smoked tons of cigarettes and.
She was pretty, into very into history, and my very much an intellectual. She she read everything in sight, and she could talk about all sorts of subjects jackson, things like that never been to call, but, just self educated and and red and red and red. And she did... She would spend years like that, like, a year or 2 in bed. I mean, not just in bed. She did get up to do stuff, but just spent hours waiting and reading and reading.
But when she went manic, that was when all bets were off, and it felt very scary as a child because it was, like she could do anything, and I couldn't even imagine the stuff she was gonna come up with. You know? And, So, yeah, the episode with the fire thing. I don't know what her intention was, but but, yeah. She brought me to a church and then set my hair on while lighting
candles. And you know, and that was just bizarre, and I think at some point she became convinced, usually should become convinced I was possessed by demons or something like that. And, you know, that her job was to wipe me out. Is very interesting the link between highly intelligent people and that wave of insanity that... Yeah. It it is very interesting. I I read a lot of about it because those coarse thing, You know?
I've always been afraid this is gonna happen to me or to my kids or something. So I have right about that end. And it does seem like there... There's a link obviously between creativity and and be this. And nutty. Yeah. And, and then if you can really find a good bent bet for your creative and a way to express yourself in other
ways. Sometimes it seems like that may, like, stop people from having breakdowns and having to be manic in some other, you know, art is a really good way to to focus your manic ness. Absolutely. Did your mom read the book? No. My mother? I didn't even know where my mother was when the book came out because she had I kind of had periodically, I would take, like, a break from her and just sort of, like, let disappeared, and she had been in manic phase and
was just out of control. And so I hadn't talked to her in about 5 years. And when the book came up out, the publisher asked me to track her down just to, you know, see if she would sue us because I wrote about her or just, you know, what she might do. And so I did have to find her and it was a little trickier I had to go to the social security office and give them her social security number, and then
they forwarded a letter. And she was in a skilled nursing facility, And she's still there, and she's pretty much in the state of dementia I'd say at this point. So I could probably read her the whole story and I doubt she'd recognize recognized that this was about her. Does she recognized you at this point? Because I know I've toward the end. She she she knew you were, but in the end of the book, when you went to see her. Yeah. She did... She knew who I was during that visit. And then
excuse me. I did go back a couple of times with my with my son with her grandson who's 21 now. And with my husband. And by the last time, she said she didn't know who I was. And and then she... I said I'm Karen and your daughter and she said, oh, yes. I remember Karen and the girl, but, she was killed by her squad in the police department. So... Yeah. So currently, she in her mind, my squad had shot me for some reason. Well, that's interesting. Yeah. You a, pretty, yeah. Pretty dramatic way
to go. Yeah. Wow. So used spoke about the that sort of stuff is genetic, I know that for me, when I when I was hitting my early twenties, I started getting very concerned if I got depressed or anything like that I thought, oh, god, And My am I... If I got my mother's issues. And That's your my brother by Mueller. Manic depressive and Did, and, you know. Yeah. Fun stuff. Yeah. But stuff And I think They're not
well medicated back then. Now. She's well medicated and we're, you know, we're fine, But, yeah. Yeah. I fine enough. Yeah. Bipolar It's just the old fashioned term for it. I think, or or bipolar is now. The the normal temperature term for manic depression. Okay. That's what they called her back so I know. Okay. So then yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She would have fits of of depression that kept her in bed. And if there were things that
you would said about how she would... Your mom would behave for certain events that I found very familiar. You know, you were... Like, when you would be going to an event, and she would she would make you super upset and Okay. All that very familiar. Yeah. You could pretty much predict that if there was a big event coming up, like a graduation or a wedding or, you know, fast 70. We we had to... Something like that. She would... She could create the manic episodes in her own body
by drinking. So sometimes she would... Some sometimes she need to really drink to set it off. But if if she was upset enough, she would just start drinking for maybe 2 days heavily, and then by the third day, her eyes have changed, and she was in a full blown manic episode, and she didn't drink anymore. She just would be
flying high on natural chemicals. I don't even know what exactly kind of diet that she had because no doctor precise that goofy doctor on the ship when when she was thrown in the brake that time. He was the only 1 who gave me a diagnosis, and he believed she was manic depressive with overt tons of paranoid schizophrenia ass. So when she was in the brake, this doctor, I... She disappeared on the ship for a long time, and I know I knew that she was getting ready to have a manic
episode because of the eye color thing. And I went back to our cabin and, at some point, this doctor the ship knocked on the cabin door and told me that my mother was in the brake, which... Old are were you? At that point. I think I was I'm trying to remember Was either 12 or almost 13. And yeah. And I would remember thinking, oh, my god, the b. I didn't ago that this was a cruise ship. It's like, what is this a pirate ship. There's a break. I don't even... I didn't even know they had
those things but Yeah. And so that was an adventure that, you know, was very distressing because they pretty much just let me stay in cabin and go about normal cruise ship business. And you're a child, that's the difference. I mean, it's an in this day and age. If that were to happen. They would I mean, I'm sure some sort of child protective service would be brought in from somewhere to. Absolutely. It was such a different time. I mean, it was only the sixties and seventies.
But and it... Which doesn't seem like ancient times, but so many things were so different there. It was some, you know, children, like, especially on the English ships. You could drink nobody would stop you if you were you know, you could walk to the bar, and that's the way it wasn't an England too. And and I I tell people things that would happen on the cruise ships because she were taking on these ships a lot, and nobody can believe it, Like, the the women.
I've talked to people who work on ships. Now and I say said 1 woman. Do they still do burial at sea, and she looked at me like I was insane, but I remember seeing many burial at sea when we were crossing the Atlantic, and that was just normal. People actually who love the ocean and they would just travel on ships all the time, and their dream was to be buried and sea. So... Yeah. And now that's, like, are you kidding me Ecological, I don't think they're down with that anymore. No.
I lost your video. I can't see you now. Oh, let me see. Oh, Hurry am. Okay. So, you mentioned a second ago about how, you know, we're... That you have friends who are working change the the voice of, of, mental illness. And I I too... I I find that, of course, it's... I about this all the time on my various podcast that it's certainly We we we don't help people that need help and, you know, growing up in that situation, you have to be the parent.
But you also you see the humanity behind the crazy, You you know. I mean, deep down, you love your mother. That's... Yeah. It's very apparent throughout the throughout the story. And I'm glad that up the Absolutely. Absolutely. All. You know, I definitely did not want it to be... As I said before a victim story like, oh poor me. I I know that whatever happened to my mother had be a much worse than what
happened to me. At some point, I think, I I know she grew up with a mother who told her She didn't want her. And that had have been hugely. I got traumatic for, I think. Did she ever acknowledged that she had mental your mother ever not she had mental illness? I think she knew she was but, you know, she wasn't really normal whatever that is, But she would describe it as her a breakdowns. She never really said, oh, yes. I need, you know, I need medication or whatever she hated the medications
they would put her on. So she pretty much refused to take anything. At 1 point she was on thor, and that's heavy oh, it's very happy and, I wrote it and as david about trying to o d on her thor, which is not part of the book, but it's in shades of blue, which is a book about depression. And and trying to bring out stories about people who survived suicide attempts, and things like that. Mh. And when when I took thor,
it took a while for. I they they... I finally told on cell so they made me throw up and get it out of my system, but there was enough still in my system that, I got a sense of why she hated that medication. Yeah. How old are you when you did that? I was 04:18. Okay. So do you kind of it had enough? And... Yeah. And, you know, she was on the
verge of another manic episode. She was... I could see the beginning of it, I was... I just reached a point where it's, like, I cannot survive another 1 of manic episodes. And and she head at that point tried to strangle me and it was just a... You know, there was just... It was things were escalating. The drama was escalating. The violence was escalating. And the thing with my life was I really had nowhere else to go. Yeah. I was completely dependent on her.
She had... I like, Isolated I herself from her family who had all been on the east Coast, and I never really met any of them except once when she could at me as a small child. And, so I didn't really have anybody to go to except my my friend's families, and I was too embarrassed, most the time to really let them know how bad things that got. And so, because I was so dependent on her, I just... I couldn't think of any way out. I knew I was 14 I I couldn't
make it out there by my myself. I had a horrible, horribly intense sense that I need did to take care of her. Mh Like this demand in her either that was part of it too. God. What a childhood so intense. Yeah. You know, it was intense and... But, you know, I know people have had much worse. Mine was bizarre just, you know, so many dramatic episodes. But, the thing that I'm really grateful for is that that I had no younger siblings.
She did have a few portions when I was when I was a child, and I think, oh, my god, if she'd had those babies, I would never have been able to get away from her. Because I would have felt so responsible to try to save them, because that's kinda how I roll, you know, it becomes that I become a cop because, she really trained me. She needs to be a enough. That was it, which she wanted it. She wanted me to rescue her and take care of her. And so I realized I could never do that. Nobody
can say her. No. Right. Did you did you have to go not have to? I mean, I I went 3 years of therapy you go through therapy after? Yeah. Oh, yes. I I chose to, go through probably 6 years therapy Yeah. And goodness. You know, so much of therapy is who your therapist is. Oh. God. Yes. And I was fortunate to get an excellent therapist, and she helped me a great deal. But, you know, obviously, I'm not... I didn't get it waste. Got free. I have had a great life. I have a great family. Now
I've been married for 27 years. I have 3 children who are all wonderful. Yeah. And... But I've had my share of Ptsd, and and in my my third... I guess my thirties. Yeah. I discovered. I, you know, I started having panic attacks, not at work, but I would kinda, like, find a a place to have having a attack and then, you know, that wasn't at work. I managed to always function really well at work. And And so it's it's still there, you know, it's it's like you always have... You always
carry that baggage with you. Oh, for sure. It's always there. I'm absolutely everybody got something. So... Yeah. It doesn't mean that your story isn't, you know, uniquely yours and as intense as somebody who maybe that we always try and make something better or worse on someone else's life, but it's horrible to be in it. You know, every everyone's horror story is their horror story. So yeah. Yeah
And... Yeah. I definitely honor your horror story, and know that it had... I know I'd had some good times too for sure, But and, obviously, it created an environment where you were able to probably be a really excellent place officer. Well, thank you. I hope I was. You know, I... There are things I I did that I wish in retrospect I get done differently, but that's a book for another day. Yeah. Well, we all have gotten in our lives I things. For sure. Talk Okay. So
talk about this. Now you... I love the story of you looking out the the part in the book where you're looking out the window and you see yourself driving? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That was such AII kind of downplayed the spiritual aspect of that because I didn't want people to think to complete when he to have you're written the book and a lot of people really put off by anything that seems spiritual or whatever. Well, I was love to hear the loo 2 version because I'm I'm
a loo chance. So... Good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to be rewrite the buckets of Loo to. I'm pretty good it's scary. But, I was... I... At the time, I was just... I had just graduated from Uc Berkeley because I had been planning to be a which was really what my mother wanted me to be, and that was what
she thought she was training me for. And I was, serving when while I was in college I was under underage, but nobody knew that And I worked in the bar as the cocktail Waitress and on my day off by was at Vas
in North Beach, which is... Ironically where my parents met, but I had never been in the bar before and for some reason, my, best friend and I were just wandering around North Beach and we decided to go into Ba, and we were upstairs and we ordered irish coffee and we were looking out onto to this avenue, and I saw this black and white police card driving up Columbus.
And this woman was driving the car, and then she had a male partner, and her hair was down, and it was long and dark and maybe, like my areas. And I looked at her and I thought I was looking at myself, and I turned to my friend, and I said, look, I'm driving this car. And she looked at just to see the tail end of the car, and I turned her and I said, I I think I'm supposed to be a cop, which totally bizarre because it was the first time that thought had ever crossed my mind.
They were just beginning to recruit women as I said 19 77. Mh. We're the first ones. I had never even thought women could be police. And police are in my story at a lot, which aisle because police in my life were the ones who came to rescue me from her. Yeah. Like So I police as people who help you and save you, and and I wanna be a helper and a saver. And so when I look at the the window, I saw this It was, like, I didn't even
know women could beat cops. And I had... I think Charlie Angels had like, the first show where, you know, we had, like, police women and these old shows. But those were mostly, like, they were not really, like, uniformed officers who were out there. Charlie Angels at the beginning, at the show, they would show a Jack smith in her police performance San Francisco at the shooting range. And I had seen that and I thought, wow. Can women do that. But that was as far as
the thought went. When they when I saw this woman driving this car and thought it was myself. All of a sudden, it was like a possibility. I had never even considered at it. And from that moment on, it was like, I knew this is what my destiny went. I was supposed to do this. So it was very strange. It's incredible I love that little week from God saying, hey.
Yeah. And and the funny thing was this woman when I finally figured out who she was that she wasn't actually and, you know, I imagined, hallucinations of myself, ask flashback or something about. When once I realized that, it was it was so funny because within a few months, I met her. I met actual woman and she became my mentor. Mh. Yeah. I was really bummed out in the book when she... Because she was the 1 that that at the party, and then she stepped down, and I was so bummed that she stepped
down. I have to tell you, again, I'm gonna keep b this book because I laughed. I cried. I held my breath. It was is really a good book. Here. Really. To hear it good. I wanted it to be. And I read a lot. I'm a v reader, and so, you know, it's up against many, many books, and it it definitely held its own. Very excellent. Yeah. So and what... I mean, I've... It made me wanna, you know, know more about this story, So... Which is always good especially for
Show. Right? That's what creates more seasons. Yeah. If I would... You know, that's the thing I'm opening bring the Tv show will happen because if there were so many characters I wanted to develop more, like, people from the Academy, like, Doughnut and just all of them. You know, there were just so many people that were so interesting. Sure. I write a whole book about each of them. So, you know, so we'll see what happens but. You know. Yeah. You spoke about the 1
during the riots, and you you ran... You were... You got separated from your a group from your troop, and, and came upon that bar where is it weren't Is that right? No. Which was the officer that was running around hitting people with the baton? Oh, yeah. And I thought, well, that I mean, here's a thing. It's there's 2 there's people that wanna help people in the world there's people that wanna hurt people in the world and people who have you know, AAA complex of I'm a bully and I'm a
horrible for, you know, whatever I wanna... And I wanna put my power on you, and the people are like, I wanna help you and I wanna lift you up. And, of course, media now is is at a fever pitch where we know everything happening in real time, and there's all these stories about, I know, police officers being violent towards citizens. But it bugs me all the... There's not report every day about all the goodness that
police officers do. You know, I was coming over from a concert last night standing on the corner had a lovely conversation with the police officer who was out there riding his ass off in full Regalia on the street corner, making sure that drunk dumb people don't get hit by cars, you know, when they cross the street. Well, thank you for talking. Him, because that that really makes our day when, you know, if you can just treat
us like humans. But, yeah. You know, if I would say the vast majority they're something like, 800000 employees in the United States, which is incredible when you think about that number. I would say the vast majority, probably, you know, 750000 of week are really good people we are want to help people and and they were drawn to the job because they wanted to help their community, make a difference for tech people, things like that.
But, you know, if if you have, we been it's, you know, 1 percent or 2 percent of those people are running around, and they shouldn't be in the job. They're the ones who are gonna get the attention. They're the ones who are... You know, we're seeing the same dozen videos over and over and over. But I try to remind people that there's something like 65000000 interactions between police and civilians every day every
year, Every you're in America. Yeah. And very few of them end up in some sort of tragic mistake or or horrible decision by the cop or things like that. Very very few of them. And it's gotta be... I mean, speak to that too. It's gonna be terrifying. I think for some reason, we, as a society, we look at police to to police us to, you know, make sure things are functioning re Ryan and the bad guy, you know, is is taken away. It's the bad guy and the good guys protected.
But it what a terrifying job? I mean my god, You you're risking your life. Every single day. You don't know what you're walking into? Someone could snap. It could be a
mentally ill person. It could be, you know, a guy who's got a gun on his wife, and you have to go in and somehow talk a guy down or or whatever it is or, you know, a little kids being abused by his mother and you have that care care balance of if you go in there, that could get be worse later in the day because you showed up, you know, like, all this crazy stuff I don't know. I don't know how police officers maintain that all. I don't know how you can
go into every single day. I mean, I'm sure the good stuff hopefully outweighs the bad stuff. But. You know. Yeah. I think it's I'm more dangerous. I mean, they say there's 300000000 guns in America, and there's something like 25000 and gun deaths a year. And we're the ones... The cops are the ones who were going to all those calls. Most people in their normal lives do not run into too many murders or things like
that. We're the ones who getting sent to the parts of town that, a lot of people in their wanna go to where people are killing each other and wanting to kill police so wanting to, you know, and I'm not justifying any of, Of course. Things we've seen that are wrong, and those cuffs who are making those horrible choices need to be taken out of the job and sitting first. But but, yes, I think there is a lot of... You're dealing with people now who have a lot of Ptsd cups on the street.
They've been shot at multiple times. And yet still, the vast majority of cops retired without ever shooting their gun in the line of duty. Yeah. We that, I wish those statistics 6 hit the newspapers every day. Yeah. They make it seem as if well, and not and part of it also the public cease, television shows where cops are constantly shooting it out. Mh. Yeah while, you know,
those things happen every day in America. They don't happen to every cup, every day, and they don't happen, you know, multiple times to the same cotton, usually. Are a few sections, but the vast majority of us never get shot and never end up shooting our guns at anybody. Did you ever shoot your gun? I did not. I do not have to shoot line of duty was very fortunate. And a lot of that was luck.
And you know, the thing is we see these horrible videos, but we don't see that cops are confronted with armed suspects every day. And don't use excessive force quite frequently are able to to ab evade it without shooting anybody. And yet, the assumption it as well. Yeah. They didn't shoot him because he was white or they didn't shoot this person. Or They shot this person because he was wet. And it's not the case. So it's very much a case of, of, different cops just
react differently. And it's not... It's a lot to do with the the fear factor. You know, I think that we're not seeing the whole picture. We don't know. She was this up shot at with his partner killed a year ago, you know, we don't know the whole story. Of course with me is brain, you know. Do police officers get Pt ptsd d evaluations every year? No. They don't. And and, you know, I I don't think departments really
have the resources to do that. And that's the the bummer of this whole thing is that so much of this is about training. You know, people if you you react the way that you train and and small departments just don't have the funds and many of the big departments don't have the funds to really put you through the repetition just training of, okay, responding to a gun call. How
are you gonna do this? Okay. This is now we're adding this and, you know, different stimulation kind of things that really help people prepare. And and every department has some training. I'm not saying there's no training, but the amount of training that you need to make the right choice, most of the time is is phenomenal. Of course. Yeah. And it should be a yearly thing, I think. But, you know, I I think about that too.
Maybe if we bought 1 last bomb for the military, and took that 10000000 dollars and put it into our, you know, our protect and serve fund That might be a good idea. Well, yeah. If it's a very complex problem. And of course, the whole open carry second amendment thing is creating a huge thing, and and I do think there's going to be a change. I think the younger generation at some point is not gonna tolerate the number of guns we have, and I'm not saying nobody should have a gun in
America. I'm not... I'm not advocating that everybody's why obviously taken away, but certainly, there is no reason why people should have Arc 15 and... Right. All kind of stuff. It's getting ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. The... Your your neighborhood shouldn't be a Dmz. No. Shouldn't be. And I don't really know how... I I don't understand how cops can be expected to differentiate between the so called good guys with the guns and the bad guys with the
guns. I mean, we just saw that sixth situation in Dallas where where the cops 5 cops were killed and during the course of that, there was a man who somewhat fit the description of the guy who was shooting wearing Camouflage and carrying an Ar 15. But and they... And the media actually posted him
as being the suspect. I know. Yeah. And he wasn't the suspect, and so I don't know how you can really have a society where people are running around in camouflage with an A ar 15 as civilians, and we're to assume that they are not
gonna cause us harm. Yeah. It was that that whole thing was such was just so sad that the fact, first of all, the the shooters like I'm gonna take out the man, the white man or whether are the white place officers, but I believe that 3 of the 5 were were police officers of color. And if not more, And, you know, you probably took out some really great guys, buddy. Yeah. I, you know, I think... I don't remember. I think they were mostly light, but, you know, in any in case, yeah, They were decent
people. They were good guys who were out there trying to do the right thing and Right. And so he's basically doing the opposite of whatever it was his chris in mind was trying to accomplish. And, yeah. It is... It's insane. And is. Yeah. Violence does not... It just... Oh, macy's so great. I probably is crazy.
Okay. So let's get back to to your story and so we've got on that little tangent, but it's the fascinating tangent so you see yourself in the car driving on the street, and you think this is for me. Now, first of all, let's just acknowledge that that's brave as hell considering your a female in the era that you were and where women were not police officers really. Like you said, there was maybe a hundred. And
I mean, that has been so scary. And to know that your mom is gonna freak out and you were, you know Look, yeah. My biggest fear was my mother's reaction. Yeah. Because It never occurred to me that I would get killed or that it was that dangerous. I was pretty a pretty strong feminist then. And that was really the era where women were trying to break into all of the things they told us we couldn't do. Right. The fire department, and just every day there was, like, some new
thing. There was some movie shu they're on was in I think about the coal miners, you know, where she, like, broke to working and the Coal mines, which My I got to me that's way more terrifying than movies. Yeah. I don't know why anyone would want to be a cool miner. That sounds like a horrible job, but... Yeah. I being in undergrad I'm slightly clog before but Too. Yeah. I wouldn't like that at all. So... Yeah. So it was sort of I had it shipped
on my shoulder. I was, like, 20, you know, you have to be, like, 21 and stupid to sign up. Think that you're... You know, you'll never be killed or you'll hang You're gonna live to be a hundred or whatever I was thinking. And so I didn't really occur to me, And and I kept hearing things like, there were so many, articles in the newspaper about the new women cups and the public being pulled and saying, oh, women are too weak into emotional and too coward.
And so it would kinda, like, pushed me, you know, me off It's like, how dare you say that, Theater. I'm gonna approve a week day, you know? And and so I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder. And, I don't... And so that might have been what partially what was pushing me. And then Dublin, talk about Dublin. Once you got in and you started doing the basic train or what do you call? Not basic training? That's military, But what do you call it for you guys?
Is it still basic training? That place academy. Yeah. The police academy. So basic of training is military. So police Academy. You go into Police Academy. And this Dublin character, oh, like, gosh. Yeah. It was essentially deaf lynn was a a sort of a a mirror of my mother. So, you know, he was, like, this sort of bull. He was a bully, and I was used dealing with the bully because my mother could be quite a bully. Yeah. And so, yeah. He was
my nemesis in the Police Academy. He really was determined to to get the women out, and he did not like the fact that women were... The the city was forced to hire women by a consent to created by a a big legal action that happened a couple of here in this in mid seventies. And a lot of the older men really resisted at. They just did not want the women in the department, and he was 1
of them. So he was getting ready to retire, and, I think our cost was his class and he was, like, determined to get rid of the women. Yeah. I was really bummed when your friend bagged out at the last minute too. Yeah. That was a bummer, and you know, that it was the right choice
for her. I thought it really interesting that when you did the way in once you were a police off sir, And you you had to get the way in with Dublin, and he didn't really acknowledge you as in as if he didn't even know what it was you. Yeah. So that was dope... I mean, that was the thing you trying to use at the end to try to fire me saying, I was, like, 3 pounds over the wait limit, which was... Absurd because Yeah. Even if I had been, Doughnut was, like, 40 hundred
pounds. I don't know. He was, like, so far over the wait limit, and yet, he wasn't even being called in to be weighed. And here he had made this huge thing about the weight limit, and I really... I was so close that there was no way he could fire me for that. And yet, you know, here, I just I never had been really overweight. I was, like, strong, but, you know, it wasn't, like, bad or anything. Sure. At this time I... I got in... We have to go for... We had to go for away and, like, every
6 months. So, like, 6 months into my job. I went for the physical fitness assessment, and and he waved me and he just wrote my... I lost 10 pounds. I thought he would oh, good job. No. You know, something that had been so major and obsessive for him was really nothing to him. I was nothing to him. Think it's a really good lesson in life in general that, you know, the people who are our bullies, you know, we could be anyone. And we take it personally because it's it's it's an
attack against us. But in reality, they're... They'll they'll pick any target. That's because I think being a bully as part of being a narcissist. Yeah. I agree. That's who we are seeing in politics. Oh, god. Yes. And and you're right. I don't think it matters. They don't care who they believe they bully everybody that they can. And they think they can't get away with. A reaction. They're looking for the reaction.
Yeah. So do you think that being a female in comparison to the male counterparts helped you be a police officer, maybe give you an empathy or an intuition, you know, the feminine intuition or, toward some of your suspects or some of your... The things that that you had to face? I I do think that I don't know if it was just me or, you know, being a woman. I think they're men who have really good intuition too. But I think that I did have a pretty good intuition, like, for when somebody was
gonna go off on me. When I when I felt, like, whatever I was doing was not calming the person down, and they were gonna just fight with us. I was pretty good at knowing when call for help before I needed it. And you know, and I didn't need to do it that often, but every now and then you could just tell that somebody was going to cause you fight, and if they were much bigger than I was, You know, usually I had a partner, but I would just, you know, I would get a car rolling.
So that kind of thing, I think helped me. I... You know, there were times where I had no intuition at all, but and and would have made a different choice. But I did feel like I... For the most part, I I did a good job everything Think. And, I don't regret the job at all. I loved it. It was really what I was meant to do. Yeah. I'm just I'm sure the Police academy although it was excellent training, I'm guessing your mother was the best training, you could have possibly received.
She totally was. Yeah. Yeah. Living with a person like that makes you psychic makes use... No know what's happening before it happens. I think so. I think it's a a really like a survival, instinct. Mh. Small, a term young age. I think when you know that you cannot trust the people who are supposed to be taking care of you. Something else kicks in, and I don't know what if it's a spiritual, you know, some people might think spirit guides,
some people might think it's just intuition. I don't know if but definitely, I felt like something was protecting me. Sure. Her a lot of my life. And in the street also is a cop. Did you... Did you worry that your children were gonna manifest any of this stuff that your mom since it is genetic and was did she inherit it from a grandparent or do you know? I I don't know she inherited, from if she did. She didn't have that. But she didn't speak that much
about her family, so I... It was hard to know. I did worry when I had kids, but I also... In 1 of my other weird spiritual moments, when I was 11 with spirit guide or this voice that it comes into my head sometimes occasionally. This isn't, like, I have voice is talking. No. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. But, on this 1 occasion, this this voice told me you're gonna have 2 sons, and So I I knew that I was part of the reason I was on this plan planet I was to have these 2 sons.
And so that made me feel like I was supposed to do it. And it it kind of laid my fears that they might end up with her illness, and I so far, they've been buying. They... I... Either 24 and 21 and I don't see any signs of my mother's or, you know, they're they're happy well adjusted kids. That's great. Is your husband was he a police officer as well? Or... Was He went lieutenant he retired as 10 and there's a
cop for 34 years. What is that like for a a police officer to meet another police officer, and I mean, I and fall in love? I mean, it's Well, I have a strange story because when I met him, I actually didn't like him that much. He was a rank above me, and he was my sort of a supervisor in my station, but not my direct supervisor.
We had several sergeant who were supervisors. But he was a new sergeant, and he came to my station and he was a little bit badge heavy, which, you know, when you first get promoted, People wanna to do a great job, so they're, like, overly zealous. Yeah. And And so he had not made a great impression on in the beginning. But, and we were both seeing other people, and I never thought about him as a possible person to date or anything.
But 1 Christmas eve, if I was coming out of the station, and I was single, and I really had nothing to do and I was kind of bummed, you know, chris with you, but I've got no to go. And I'm leaving work and all of a sudden, I see him standing on this on the sidewalk and he has this nose in this pine branch like wrapped in with cello pain thing, and he walks over to me and he hands to me. He says, Mary Chris miss Karen. And I
was, like stunned. I didn't... I I never thought of him in a romantic way before, but here he was. And and then time passed, and he didn't ask me out to kept thinking out he's gonna ask me out, and I was too shy to make conversation with him. And finally, it hurts to me. Maybe because he's my... Like, a rank above me. It was right around the Anita hill stuff, and it was just becoming sexual harassment was just coming into the national
conversation. Yeah. But maybe he's afraid that I'm going make an complaint that he harassed me. So Yeah. So I wrote my notes saying it'd be nice to get together for a a coffee or a drink sometime, and and then he did call me right away. And it turned out my fear my thought about his fears split where was exactly correct. In fact he still has that no 28 years later. Slowly. It's very cute. Yeah. And I don't know whether he keeps it out of being romantic or just in case I ever make it complaint.
That's hilarious. Love it. So talk about the Tv show real quick. You these pitch should I assume and you're not yet. Now we're in the process. There's a couple in Los Angeles who are are writing a pitch and a I pilot and then and then we're going to pitch it. So... So... Yeah. The fingers crossed get picked up by somebody I think it would be a great show. I mean, it's got all the elements for sure. And, you know, America loves police dramas. Yeah. And I don't want it to be, like, a regular,
another police procedural kind of thing. I I hope that it will be, more character based. And, you know, just these crazy people crazy characters should, you know, words. Well, it's funny. There are moments in here that are that are really funny too. Oh, Okay. And I good I. I cut I got pretty misty dia when Jim passed away. I I had a feeling it was coming just as you're set up really excellent for it, And I just went, oh, no. I don't even wanna turn the page.
And therefore. I know 1 of my lives regret, but I wasn't able to really do something big for him, you know, I... As I got older and and made my own money and, you know, were things I wanted to do to thank him me you now, like, you know, take him on a great trip or... Yeah. I feel like think. And I really like I
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like he knows. He knows you lock him, and I think he does, and I think also, I'm I'm pretty close to his kids, Barb and statement and and I I've tried to be a good big sister to them, and they've been a great free sibling to me. So I figured that's the way to pay it forward. Hey. God for Jim too. I mean, just reading that, just he took about being your angel My god. He was amazing. Yes. Yeah. He he totally did not have to take me
in. He was really risking a lot and nowadays, you might be risking being arrested just for doing that, you know, without going through legal channels. Might if you cannot not get been a place to today. I don't know where I would ended up. So yeah. Yeah. I was a little... The when that you talked about, I'm sort of jumping around course. I want people to read the book, and, hopefully, I'm dropping enough little little biscuits that they'll wanna eat it all up, that
the... When you went in, you answered the add, which would have been a kinder Obvious Craigslist. You answered it ads that you were trying your were desperate for money. Right? Eat. Right? And this guy was looking for models and, you know, I'm stupid. I'm 15 or whatever I was. And fully developed. Yeah. Berry developed. I developed at 11. So I'd always looked much older. People always assumed that was 20. Yeah. From the time I was 10 I.
And, yeah. So I answered this at this ad and ended up in a very potentially dangerous stupid situation that that pretty much only a teenager who's got nobody looking over her would have chosen to get into. But thank goodness that I got out of it alive, You know, and I got out of it without doing something stupid that I would have granted later. So... Yeah. 1 singular walk through a door changes
a person's life completely. And for some of these kids, who are on the street and homeless and they're hungry and scared and desperate that it it makes sense that they would turn to that, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it also makes sense. That in order to do it, you would have to almost become a drug addict it because such a just disgusting sting job and someone who... I mean it can be, you know, you're just... Yeah. Yeah. I totally get how how
it all evolves. And, yeah, for most young women who have no skills and, are out on the streets. Your your choices are kinda limited at, and young men too. They're on man. Absolutely, you know, on the street yeah. It's it's a tough thing. It that's a tough thing. But what's something that you kept out of the book? For for whatever reason. You said that there were some things you didn't talk about? Oh, well, you know, that the suicide attempt I left out, and I I wasn't really sure why I
was leaving it out of the time. But intuitively, I felt like this this is a survivor book, and I don't wanna get off into this tangent of this episode. I kinda left it out, and then Mh. And Amy Ferris was doing her ant pathology. Shades had a blue about all of these people who had survived suicide in the point of the book is it gets better hanging in there. I'm so glad I survived. Right. Then I was... Then I realized why I left that out. And was like, oh, because
this was coming. And so when I wrote that story and and added it to and and Amy was kind enough to add it to her and la itchy. She's great. I'm gonna talk to her on the podcast as well. She's scared. I love her post on Facebook. She's a fireball. Of it. She so it's inspiring. Yeah. I. Yeah. So, you know, for me, the the thing that was best about police work was really the Cam. I mean, I did... I was drawn to it because I I wanted family and in my
imagination. I was now gonna have 2000 brothers and sisters in blue who would have my back, and I'd have their that. And I did get a lot of that. In fact, at the end of my career, I ended up getting breast cancer and, a lot of my coworkers donated their time, their vacation time and you can you can donate sick time and vacation did whatever time you wanna donate to people who are in crisis or whatever. And I was able to be off for a really long time, and and, ultimately, I decided just not to go
back. I've retired as I was old enough to do that. But I retired before I plan to. But, anyway, they they really do show up for you when when things get bad, and, And, you know, it's dysfunctional at this dysfunctional fact family too. You have members that you don't like and people you hope you don't have to work with. But for the most part, I found my coworkers to be just really loving people who take care of each other. Yeah. Your first partner and do you stay in touch with him?
Oh, yeah. Very much so I'm I'm some of my closest friends are former partners. And, the the part... I changed every race. So I always have to think twice now. Who did I what did Like, Nora, whose real name is not Nora. Yeah. Still my 1 of my closest friends, because I had... So because there were so few women in my class, and I ended up being the only 1 in my class to get out of there. I ended up not having as many female prints department as I would have liked to had.
But I sort of acquired them since since retiring, Facebook is a wonderful thing. Yeah. Like, yeah. People that I would just know in past thing that I never got a chance to work with. I've gotten to know much better since since leaving. Yeah. What it? Yours is a truly wonderful story and it's inspiring. It really is. Thank you. Yeah. I can't wait for the Tv show. Well thank. You. So thank you for reading the book. I really appreciate. Oh, I devoured it. I read it very quickly.
I I very... I wanted it to... I wanted to know more, which I was is good considering I was gonna be interviewing you. And I'm... There's always a million questions. But Yeah. I mean, I will definitely... I'll post a link so that people can can get to the books so they too can read it. It's excellent. Yeah. And you're excellent, and thank you for your service. Right. Back at you. Thank you. It was really a pleasure talking to you. A pleasure talking you to you, and thanks
for having me on. Yeah. And please keep in touch when the show gets picked up and anyone wanna have be on and talk about the show. But that's a that's a process that sell them, you know, and, actually, before we hang up, I'd love to ask, was it hard to get somebody to to take you on as a memoir. I mean, you know, you Oh, yeah. Actually, I I started out trying to get an agent, and I sent, query letters out to all of these agents, but I I had a list of different memoir,
agents. And I... 1 of my friends well, in my friend group was Christine Bro, who I knew, had some connections in the publishing business but I didn't really know what she was doing. And I just sent her letter her saying, hey, Christine, I'm looking for an agent, and I'm not having a whole lot of left. Do you know anyone. And she replied and she's said, oh, a matter of fact I just started my own publishing business. May I read your book, and she was the 1 who decided to publish the book. So she's
justin... Yeah. I was really lucky. She and and I love her. She's a great woman and so she had just started this Andy grass, nothing, but the truth, publications then she was mostly focusing on women's stories because she felt like they weren't always getting as much exposure as some other stories. Yeah. And I are you are you getting this book out? What when did you write this? What year was it? 20 14. Oh, so it's only been out a little while.
2 years. Yeah. Yeah. So will, hopefully, it will catch on, like, wildfire and people will keep reading it. Thank you. That's very sweet of you. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. My pleasure. Yeah. And then kiwi posted, please. K. Yeah. Have a great day. Bye.