Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey Human podcast. This is episode 431, and my guest is John Hsu. John is an author of best selling children's books. He's the children's librarian for Bookalicious. He's a part time lecturer at Rutgers University and has served as the ambassador of school libraries for scholastic book fairs for almost 6 years. He's also recovered from childhood anorexia and is a champion and advocate for kids everywhere.
His novel in verse, Louder Than Hunger, is a powerful story that stands up against that voice in our head that lies to us and tells us we're not worthy to take up space. It is a groundbreaking book, and I believe it has helped people all over the planet to face their sense of worthlessness and stand up against it and shine light in dark places. I met John through our mutual friend, Molly O'Neil, and John and Molly worked together.
And I asked Molly, hey. You know a lot of really interesting writers, and I would love to be able to talk to some of them. So she connected us, and I think you're gonna enjoy this one. John's a really sweet guy. Check out heyhumanpodcast.com for links and to learn more about my guests and the show, susanruth.com to learn more about me and my other artistic endeavors. Hey Human Podcast is now on YouTube under official Susan Ruth. I'm on Patreon at susanruthism.
I'm on TikTok at susanruthism, and find my albums on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your music. Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, and thank you for listening. Be well. Be kind. Be love. Please, be love. Here we go. John Hsu, welcome to Hey Human. Thank you. I am so honored to be here. My my friend Molly O'Neil once told me about you, and said that one day we must connect and today is our day to connect.
Love Molly so much. She is the best. We actually she and I met at a conference called Story. So, She's she's amazing. Like, she's the best person to talk about stories with and she minds stories out of your heart and soul. She's so kind and so welcoming and loves, loves, loves books. Let's jump into you. Tell me about your upbringing. Where'd you grow up? And how did your family shape you? Right now, I'm in Naperville, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago.
And I grew up in a south suburb of Chicago called Tinley Park. And I was mostly raised by my grandparents though. My grandma had just retired and my mom was working full time. And so my grandma became my babysitter, but then my grandma also became my best friend. And when I was in 1st grade, we moved 30 miles away from my grandma, and
that was really, really hard for me. And Monday through Thursday, I often didn't feel as though I could breathe because I always felt like I was my best self when I was with my grandma, but I always knew on Friday when I arrived home that my grandma's red car would be in the driveway, and that I get to go to her
house for 3 days. And so I think a lot of my of who I am and and how I love stories, and why I became a teacher and a librarian and a writer, is is because of my grandmother who's who surrounded me with love and stories and authenticity. Do you think that she saw you more than anyone else saw you, or do you think it was just the idea of grandma from a kid's perspective?
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting because I I have a book that that came out in 2024 called Louder Than Hunger, and it's a fictionalized account of of my life. I changed my name from John to Jake, but when I was writing that book, grandma became one of the the the main characters. And and I explored a lot about, like, why was grandma, like, my person? And I do think it is that she was just so loving and patient and and calm. And my mom was going through a lot of mental health issues
herself. And my mom had become a mom at the age of 17, and I don't think she was quite ready to become a mom yet. And she had 2 kids by the time she was 20 years old. And so, you know, you don't I didn't understand at the time, but now as an adult, I understand, like, that's a lot that that she was that was, you know, brought into her own life and and having mental health
challenges as well. And I think at my grandma's house, there was more oxygen in the rooms than in my in the home in which I lived Monday through Thursday. That's a great way to put it. You were able to actually move around in your space and not I think for a lot of us as children, especially those of us who grew up in disordered homes that it it was hard to be seen. You didn't wanna take up too much space. So there was that weird juxtaposition of I want you to see me, but
I don't want you to see me. Because if you see me, I get hurt. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting because that's what really Louder Than Hunger is about is trying not to take up space in the world, and trying to become smaller and smaller, and and almost invisible. And and the way that Jake in the book does that is by taking away food from himself.
And for a long time, grandma's house is the place where the voice, the voice meaning that inner saboteur in your head that tells you that you're worthless and tells you that you're a miserable person and you don't deserve to be on this planet, is super loud when he's with his mom and dad, when I was with my mom and dad. But It was a little bit quieter when I was with my grandma. But eventually, even at grandma's house, the voice
is there, and the voice is loud. And in in my one safe space, is no longer safe because the voice comes with it comes with me rather. Does that voice sound like your voice or does it sound like somebody completely different? Yeah. As a in the beginning, I didn't know it was my own voice. Right? I thought it was somebody else talking to me because the voice starts off quiet and then it gets louder and louder and louder and then all of a sudden it's taking over
your entire brain. And and in my own therapy and and in the book Louder Than Hunger, Jake has this moment of wait, this is actually me. I'm the person who's sabotaging myself and I can actually talk back to that voice in my life adolescence. That voice was always a capital V. And I always tell kids now like I worked hard to turn that capital v voice into a lowercase v voice and have strategies and skills in place to
never allow it. Well, hopefully, to never allow it to become capitalized again because that's when you don't often realize it's actually you. But I think lowercase v, we often know. That's us. That's our own saboteur. That's present in all of us, I think. Well, I guess there's a few people I I have heard of a few people out there that don't have an external monologue, an internal external I call it the external monologue even though it's internal because it feels
like it's separate than myself. But that that's what's so important, I think, about doing therapy, especially therapy that focuses on our childhood when you're an adult because you do have the perspective. And the truth of the matter is we are the onion. We are the layers of all the people we have been throughout our life, and that little kid is still in there, still going. Yeah. I don't know what
that voice is. That voice is scary, and the adult us has to go back and gently love them through whatever moment they they've experienced. That's what was so interesting about writing Louder Than Hunger is that the book opens in, 1996, and I love saying it's historical fiction, which kids don't laugh at that, but certain people are like, oh, my childhood is historical fiction.
And so it opens in 1996, and in the first act, like, he's spiraling out of control because that voice is getting louder and louder and louder. And then in the second act of the book, he's hospitalized in a facility called Whispering Pines. And right away, they can diagnose him with anorexia nervosa based on the DSM at the time. But as Jake starts to refeed, he and I started to refeed, he's diagnosed, I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder, depression, and anxiety.
And once Jake starts to refeed, a lot of the story is told in flashback, where you go back to 1986, You go back to 1987. And so many of the things that I write about in the book, I had forgotten. I didn't remember that those things happened. But because the book is poetry, poetry always allows me to be more vulnerable and to tell more of the truth. And I would write these poems and then go, oh, my goodness. I I haven't thought about this in 30 years. But writing those
things down healed my adult self. I didn't realize that I was holding on to so many of those those things and that they were still affecting my present day self. And disordered eating is such a fascinating disorder because I feel like there is one one part of the psyche that says, I know this is not right. I know this is killing me. I know that it's unhealthy. But then on the other side, we are constantly bombarded by messaging that says, the thinner you are, the better you are.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a really confusing space to live in and especially to heal for you experiencing at the time again with they they've changed the language over the years, but at the time, it would have considered anorexia. Firstly, relatively rare in males. Yeah. But and I think people maybe don't necessarily people who have experienced in their lives understand this but for those who who are listening that don't know, it's really not about
the food per se. No. It's about the control, the feeling of being able to control this one thing. I can control what goes into my body or not. Yeah. Yeah. And for yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And for me and in the story for Jake, that's what it is. It feels like it's a best friend because he doesn't have any friends other than his grandma. Well, he does have a friend named Emily Dickinson, but she, of course, doesn't know that he exists. And And she could be a real downer. No. But he does. He and I did
too. Like, I used to talk to Emily Dickinson all of the time. And and so he has Emily, and he has his his grandma, and he has he loves Sondheim. He loves musicals, musicals as do I. So for me, it was it was my way of controlling, like, everything going around me that I couldn't, but I could control what was going in my body and and always, like, I'm so grateful you said, it really has nothing
to do with food. It's like manifestations of something else and you've got to figure out why are you doing this to yourself. Were your parents at this time noticing this aspect of you? Yeah. I well, my parents in the book, Jake's parents are not going through a divorce, but in my own life, they were. And so they my mom was very, you know, preoccupied, and my mom was having a midlife crisis. And, you know, I wasn't with my dad, and my grandma was going through a lot of the time as well. And so it
was really easy to hide. Just like during COVID, when kids weren't in person school, peep like guidance counselors and social workers weren't recognizing a lot of behaviors, and everybody was just trying to stay alive in the home, that it was easier to hide. And I've met with a lot of people who either on the phone, who are currently hospitalized, who are 21, 22, where their eating disorder started,
you know, in high school. And and all of them tell me it was because it was so much easier to hide during that time. I grew up in an era too where it was really prevalent. I don't know. I haven't kept up with the statistics, but I imagine it's still pretty major. It's a pretty major issue. Yeah. Well, and in males, because you mentioned males, it's it's 10%. 10 at least that's the stack that's usually used. 10% of people with eating disorders are are are men or males. Yeah. Mhmm.
And it's been, you know, a lot of boys during, experiences at middle schools will come up to me when they know nobody is around and share with me that they were hospitalized for anorexia or bulimia or disordered eating, and and and they they feel more seen. Because in my I spent 2 years in the hospital. In the book, Louder Than Hunger, Jake spends a year, and I was never with another
male that entire time. So in the 2 years in the experience of being in the hospital, were where did you begin to have this love of, obviously, if Emily Dickinson is somebody you're talking to, it sounds like you already began the process of loving reading. But how did were books coming in and being your friends while you're in the hospital? Yes. So not so much in the beginning in the hospital because for me, I wasn't
able to concentrate very much. School was becoming really challenging where it had never been challenging in my life. I always did well in school, but when you're not feeding your brain, it's hard to focus and it's hard to do work and it's hard to be present. And so once I started to repeat again story, and then music and poetry became a big part of my life. And I always tell kids that I'm living, walking proof that music and theater can save you.
And I'm known for children's literature, but but for me, the thing that is most important in my daily life is music and theater, that constantly allows me to stay well. It's good being here in Chicago or near Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not here much because I travel every week, but yes. I I do I do all my writing in New York City. You know, lots and lots of plays and musicals. So I would say, like, I I as long as I meet my writing goal for the day, I can see a
musical. So it's good. It's good encouragement. How did you convince yourself to refeed, to start eating again? What what was that stepping stone? Yeah. For me, it was eventually, I just got so tired of being sick and so tired of missing school. I'd I'd missed 2 years of school. I've been in 2 different programs. I was in a program called Linden Oaks, which was a mental health facility,
for 7 months. Then after 7 months, they essentially kicked me out because they said, like, you've you're you keep starting over the program. Like, you've been here the longest. Like, you're doing the same exercises again. There's truly nothing else we can do for you because you're not helping yourself. And you you you need to start doing what we're asking you to do. But I was very, very stubborn. And so they kicked
me out of that one. And then I went to a much more of a medical facility, where there weren't as many people with eating disorders, and I think that was the right program for me. Because as you probably know, people with eating disorders are very competitive, and they want to be the best at their disorder. And unfortunately, so many people learn from each other how to be better at their eating disorder, and they manipulate each other. And and I was very competitive, and I was very manipulative.
So for me to be in a program that didn't have as many others with eating disorders was really good for me, and and and I think that type of environment allowed me to actually start doing the work. For me, I always remember when I was in the 7th grade, I was pretty sure I had an eating disorder, and I'd go to the public library all the time. The library was my my safe space as well, just like grandma's house.
And I vividly remember finding an isolated library carol, and typing into the old, probably, Apple 2e terms like anorexia and bulimia and eating disorder, and it led me to such toxic things. It led me to so many articles about Tracy Gold. This Tracy Gold from Growing Pains is in the news a lot then. I discovered Karen Carpenter, and I discovered so many books that I would never name because those books served as how to manuals.
And I remember I I I would read a chapter, and then I would just do exactly what was in that book. And so many people like me work to report books like that and to report websites, and not as censorship, but to say these are these are materials that are are not good for for people who are vulnerable, for eating disorders. It's not good for anybody because it glorifies it glorifies the eating disorder
or disordered eating in so many ways. Well, that's kind of what I was speaking to also in the beginning of our conversation is that we live in a society that does glorify it. It's getting I grew up in the modeling world. I hit 6 foot at 14. They're not exactly encouraging you to have snacks in that world, you know? Yeah. And to your point, it does become very competitive with the other people around you, and then you're shown images and you're expected to look like these images.
Yeah. It's Yeah. It's it it's very influential. Yeah. Yeah. And with Instagram and with I mean, all social media. I mean, my book is, I said, to explain to 96 when it happened to me. I couldn't write about that. I think the experience now it's it's so different from from what I went through. There's also the language at home. I remember my mother struggled with her weight. She was overweight for a lot of my childhood.
My father had been overweight before he married my mother and then decided that he was fat and and lost a ton of weight. And in my humble opinion, I think he's had body dysmorphia ever since. He's incredibly thin. So I grew up in this house where there was the one voice, my father's voice saying, oh, that's so fattening. That's that's got so many calories. And my mother sneaking and hiding food. And those messages being so that's little kids pick up on all of that conversation.
Yeah. So interesting. I I just remembered something I haven't thought about in a long time. When I was at Linden Oaks, again, I was there so long, that I was hospitalized with somebody who was 16, and then later with that person's mother. And it was so interesting because I heard everything from the 16 year old about her mom and how her mom, she thought, really helped create her eating disorder. And then to be with the mother and to hear what the mother said about her daughter, I felt like
like I shouldn't be there. I shouldn't have been able to hear these 2 different conversations. But, yeah, that's when I truly realized at a young age that a lot of people with eating disorders, it is because of the messaging in the home and and and and how food is is seen and talked about or protected. Yeah. And we think of of disordered eating, I think a lot. And as a society as, oh, this person is starving, but there's also the other side where people are hiding by putting
weight on. I have known individuals who that's their way of staying invisible in the world is they just keep Yeah. Feeding themselves so that they would be considered quote unquote undesirable to the world at large. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I even have to liaise with people like like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's so important to get those conversations out into the zeitgeist because the it's they're weirdly there's so much stigma around it still.
There's and the stigma goes both ways. It's the both again, like, we talked about this weird badge of honor Yeah. In the community itself and then this sort of, oh, not my child or, oh, I'm I'm not hearing the messaging going on. So I'm I'm glad that we kind of got to cover that. Moving from that, tell me about when you started to get what you were feeling inside and the stories you wanted to come out. How did what was that process? Like, when did I, like, say to myself,
I'm gonna start writing stories? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I love telling this story. So, I was let me go through my my background. So I was a 3rd grade teacher for 3 years, and I loved being a 3rd grade teacher. I thought I'd always be a 3rd grade teacher. And then I became a 4th grade teacher, and I loved teaching 4th grade actually more than 3rd grade because
I looped with my students. And I had the same students for 2 years, and that was magical because on the first day, I knew everything about their reading lives and their writing lives, and they knew me, and the community had already been established, and we got busy right away. And then I went to library school to learn how to be a librarian, and I transitioned from being a classroom teacher in the school where I'd been a homeroom teacher to the school librarian.
And that was magical because you got to follow kids from kindergarten through grade 5. And I did that for 9 years, and then I left, and I became the ambassador of school libraries. And I used to travel all over the country advocating for libraries and librarians and was was speaking 200 days a year and was talking about books nonstop and other people's stories, which I is is really, really
important to me. But someone named Molly O'Neil had been seeing my presentations, and she kept saying, John, I think that you're a writer, and I think you have stories inside of you. And I kept saying, no, Molly, I don't. I'm not a writer. And I kept, like, having Molly check-in with me every few months. And then in 2017, Amy Krause Rosenthal, who is one of my favorite authors, she wrote books for adults and books for kids and did lots of social experiments in
the city of Chicago. And John, John she was John Green's mentor. And in 2017, she shared with the world that she had terminal cancer, and she'd been keeping that private for a long time. And 2 weeks after she shared that on Instagram, that she had cancer, the New York Times ran a piece that she wrote in which she was looking for a new wife for her husband before she died. I remember this. And it was real Yeah. It was really sad, and
it went viral. And there was lots of white space at the end of the piece because the story wasn't over yet. And then approximately 2 weeks later, Amy passed away, and StoryCorps had been holding on to a conversation between her then 19 year old daughter, Paris Rosenthal, and Amy. And in it, Amy Kraus Rosenthal said, make the most of your time here. And when I heard that, make the most of your time here, I, one, started sobbing. I always tell people, don't listen to
that interview when you're driving. Like, listen to it, like, in a in a private place. And when I heard that I truly wrote Molly O'Neil, and at that time she was an agent and I said, Molly, I am ready to start writing stories now, which is why the first book that I wrote called This Is the Story is dedicated to Amy Krause Rosenthal. And I wish Amy Krauss Rosenthal were still here. She had so many more stories to tell.
But she continues to inspire people, and I've shared that story on NPR, and I then got connected with her family, and her sister-in-law is a teacher, and and I send her sister-in-law copies of my books when they come out to give away. So, yeah, it's because of Amy Kress Rosenthal and because of of Molly O'Neil, who saw something in me that I didn't see in myself.
And at the time, I didn't realize that I had to write many books in order to finally write Louder Than Hunger, which was the story that, like, I think only I could tell. And that people were really surprised that I wrote because my book, This is a Story, is all about libraries and my love of story, and people know that, who know me. And my book, This is a School, is about my love of school. People know that.
But people didn't know that all of the mental health challenges that I went through, helped speak helped me become the person I am today. Yeah. I love what a beautiful story. And in my belief system, she is she does know and she is there and she has read it and she she is a part of it because she's part of all things now. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. For sure. You write, do you have a, tendency to write in a verse style?
Yeah. Like, it's it's only Molly Molly. It's like I keep talking about Molly, because Molly is always with me when I'm writing. Like, she's not physically with me, but she's there emotionally. And sometimes she's with me when I'm writing. But she said, John, you didn't realize
you were a poet. We I don't think we realized, but everything comes out of you in poet tree, and and that goes back to, I think, something I said earlier, which is that poetry allows me to be brave and allows me to be vulnerable, and and I love how you can play with the page. Louder Than Hunger, it's like 528 pages. Some editors would have gotten it down to 200 pages because they are it's it's a novel in verse, so they're they're all poems.
But I needed I needed to take up space on the page, and I needed to play with the page. And Jake and I have a had a really hard time at one time taking up space on the page. I mean, it's taking up space in the world, but not on the page. Yeah. I love playing I love playing with the page. It's a beautiful juxtaposition of a person who was trying so hard not to be seen and then now you get to be seen all over the place. Yeah.
I actually really enjoy books like that. It's what drove me to do you know the author, Sark? I do I do not. But I'm writing I'm writing it down. Very colorful. Takes up every little every little corner, every little space, you know, just no rules. It speaks to our inner child. Yeah. It really does. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about libraries for a second. I'd love to.
For me, libraries were incredibly important as not only a refuge from my home, I could walk to the library in my neighborhood which was awesome. Librarians are so helpful. When I changed schools my senior year, I spent I was so terrified. I spent the 1st 2 weeks in the library eating my lunch. Mhmm. Until the librarian came up to it makes me wanna cry. Came up to me and said, you know, you can't spend sorry. I don't know why I'm getting emotional about it.
No. No. Please. No. Do. Because that's what libraries do. Can't do. Up to me and she said, you can't spend your life in here. You have to go be you have to go be in in your life down with all the kids and stuff. Yeah. And and so I did it, and I was so scared. And it was the best thing ever. I sat down. I just sort of picked a place to sit amongst all these people that were chattering and who had grown up together. I I ended up in a school where the kids had grown ups in
2nd grade together, basically. And here I was, you know, a senior. It was I was brand new. I didn't know anyone, and they all knew each other. And I just feline, sat down in a space, and the people around me were so lovely. And in fact, one of those women is my friend to this day. Jen. Shout out, Jen. And and it's just if it weren't for that librarian seeing me and sort of pushing me out of the nest, so I I already have a soft spot for them. Yeah. Yeah. And that librarian knew that you
would be okay out there. I think in some situations, librarian would have let you stay knowing, like, this may not have been a safe space for you to leave. Right? But she knew. She could see that you're you're gonna be okay. There's gonna be people down there who are going to accept you and love you, and you'll end up knowing them all these years later still. Yeah. She knew her students better than I did because I was new, but she knew for you know, the the type of kids
in them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, yeah. I got very much so about it. I don't know. I guess it's still that little kid, you know, even though I was what, I would have been 17. That's still a kid. That is. Yeah. It's hard. It's a hard time. Yeah. For sure. Well, let's talk about your being a librarian and, let's talk about Bookalicious a little bit. Let's all of that. So Bookalicious is a is a is a startup, out of California,
in the San Francisco area. And I ended up joining Bookalicious because of the founder. Her name is Leanne Borders. And when I was in high school, 17, like you just mentioned, I would go to the library a lot, but I started to transition to actually going to bookstores more. And where I lived, you had two choices. You had Barnes and Noble, and you had Borders. And when I was in one mood, I would go to Barnes and Noble. In another
mood, I would go to Borders. And I realized now as an adult, I loved going to Borders when I was in a certain type of mood because it was more like an independent bookshop feel. It felt more indie, and there's lots of music and records, and it wasn't it was kind of more messy, I thought. Lianne Borders is of the Borders family that founded Borders. Her husband is Lewis Borders, And so I just love that she was taking a lot of the philosophy, of the borders that I loved when I
was in high school. And I do all of my speaking and school visits through Bookalicious. It's just it's a really beautiful match. Are you concerned about the state of libraries and the peril that librarians face? Yeah. Yeah. Always. I mean, it's it's hard. Books are being challenged. People are being challenged. I think that kids' lifelines are being challenged, is is what I always say to people.
It's that, like, when we ban something that could save a child, we're we're removing maybe the only lifeline in their lives. And through talking about loud when I talk about Louder Than Hunger, it's even easier and I think more powerful, to make those connections. That books truly can be the perfect prescription to let us know we're going to be
okay, that they they can save us. I mean, for for me, it was it was the musical Rent that that really saved me, but I think, like, stories e e equally, but but Rent is what I always point to. And when I do, visits with middle schoolers, I do this entire segment on Adena Minzel, and it makes my 17 year old self so happy. That's great. Because, you know, Adena Minzel was in the original Broadway cast of Rent. Rent is fantastic. The books have always been banned
historically. That is nothing new. But the ferocity with which they are being banned now is, to me, terrifying. I I cannot believe that people don't see that in the history of the world, being on the side of the people that banned books is not the right side in history. No. Not at all. No. And I think we would learn that from history. Yeah. We would be able to, yeah, make but it but I always remind people, it's
actually a small group of people. It's a small group of people who have made it, like, their full time job to report books. They often don't even live in the community. Or read the books. They don't read that's the thing. Like, you know, as a librarian, thanks as a school librarian, thankfully, I never had a book challenged. But when I would talk to kids about why I didn't have certain books in our libraries in our library,
they would be surprised of the reason. So a good example I always use with people is the Hunger Games is popular now, but when it first came out, it was very, very popular. And my students didn't understand why we didn't have Hunger Games. And I'd say to them, you can go to the public library and get it. You can go to the bookstore. I know you have a sibling at the junior high. They can check ask your sibling
to check it out for you. But then I would say to them, I have something called a selection policy. And according to all of these reviews, that book, Hunger Games, is for grades 9 and up. And I said, if your mom or your dad or your grandma were to challenge it, I would lose that challenge. And they would then understand it, but they'd be like, nobody, whatever. My parents would never do that. But I say, well, okay. But I I I am I'm going by the policy that I have, you know, and we have
to have that in place. But the first thing on the pot on the on the form is, did you read the book? And so often, the answer is no. I did not read the book. Yeah. Exactly. I think Molly would agree with both of us in in this as well is that I get frustrated though by the what age range is listed on a book because I was reading at an at an early age, much higher level. And because of that, you know, I was open to worlds Yeah. Opened up to worlds that were fantastical.
My family, really all about sci fi and fantasy and and and poetry. Those were kinda the big ones in my house. And so I got to read things that had I paid attention to the sticker Yeah. May not have picked up. And and I don't like the limitation of that, but I understand why it's there, but I just it's like, why do we have to always put this caveat on things? Like, oh, you're not you're not smart enough or you're not articulated enough to to be able to grasp this. It's like, let's give somebody a
chance. Yeah. No. I agree with that because I was let's say to my students, like, you know what makes you uncomfortable. If this is making you uncomfortable, stop reading it. But but the person sitting next to you, they they're fine with it. Right? Or kids run over and say, mister Shue, look at this word. It's in this book. And, oh my goodness, how can this word be in this book? And I say, well, then don't read it. If you but they weren't upset. They just wanted to tattle
on the book. Right. That's a great lesson in life. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you don't wanna read it, don't read it. If you don't wanna watch it, don't watch it. If you don't wanna sleep with that person, don't sleep with it. If you don't wanna have an abortion, don't have an abortion. It's so easy. Yeah. That's my philosophy. Yeah. So here's a here's a hot question. If you're reading a book and you don't like it, will you stop reading it or will you
power it through? Yes. Oh, I love that question. So I used to have this rule that I so disagree with now, which is I will read if it's a novel or if it has more than 50 pages, I will read at least 50 pages. And if I make the decision that I still am not enjoying it after 50 pages, you have permission to abandon the book. And now I'll abandon on the first sentence, the first page, in the middle of the first chapter. But I'm also a mood reader.
And so if there's a book that I've abandoned after the first page, but then everyone is talking about it, I'll give it a second chance, but I'm usually right. Yeah. I don't finish a book if I'm not into it. There's so many books that I would be into. Why waste my time? Yeah. But so many people will, though. Like, my my best friend that I actually met in the hospital, when I was hospitalized for for for disordered eating, will always finish a book even if she's miserable.
Like, stop. Life is too short. Life is too short. There are so many great books out there. Yeah. What's your opinion on Audible type books? Oh, I love I love when people read with their ears. It's real reading. I struggle though because I don't have a great attention span, and I find that my brain is going all over the place, and and then I'll have to, like, go back
a few chapters. But something that that used to help me, I no longer have a commute like I used to, but I would always listen to audio books, but I would going back and forth to school, but I'd always have the physical book on the passenger seat. And I would like move the bookmark at stoplights, and that would help me stay focused. Oh, I love that. That was a strategy. But my book Louder Than Hunger has an audiobook. Oh, it does? Okay. It's so well done. Jeff Ebner reads it.
I read the dedications and my author's note, and I didn't think I'd be able to listen to the audiobook. But I'm so grateful I did. And I had a catharsis listening to it. I sobbed. The story felt as real as it's ever felt while listening to somebody read me my story. He reads it almost like a play. It's really, really good. What was it like when you discovered you were a New York Times best selling author? How surreal was that moment?
Oh, thank you for asking that. I was in El Paso, doing a week of school visits, and, the the day that that I became a New York Times bestselling author, I'd spent the day with 6th and 7th graders, and I decided to turn off my phone all day because I'd been hoping for it. And I'd been putting it out into the universe, but I was feeling guilty for hoping for it. But it's something that I just, I felt like this was the book that I thought I had the best chance for.
And so I finally turned on my phone as I was coming out of the school, and I spotted this child who looked really lonely and really upset, and I went over to them and I chatted with them, and I ended up giving them a pen out of my pouch, and I signed the pen for them and encouraged them to write down their feelings, and had this good moment, but I was really worried about them and had thought I gotta email their their librarian once I get back to the hotel
and say, can you check-in on this student tomorrow? So anyway, as soon as I left that child is when I saw that I'd become a New York Times best selling author. So it just felt like the right moment. I just had an interaction with a child. I sat in my car and I cried. And then I decided not to tell anyone for an hour because I just wanted to carry it with me and just let it be my own private thing. I love that. Well, congratulations.
Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's such a it's a beautiful it's a beautiful acknowledgement for somebody who I think speaking with you for this short amount of time, it's clear that your passion and your love for writing and being present in the world and being there for decades, it's all there. So it's lovely to be recognized. No. It's the biggest honor. Like, I I love school visits more than anything. I feel like I'm still a school librarian
just without my own library. I get to do my favorite part about being a being a school librarian, which is connecting with kids and seeing them. And I think, really, a lot of my presentations could be called a cautionary tale, how to look for the Jakes of the world. Jake is is the main character of Louder Than
Hunger. I used to not admit it, but I I have this ability just to look out and see which kid needs a little boost and which kid needs somebody just to come over and talk with them and and see them and to see inside of their hearts. And after presentations, the librarians and teachers and principals will come and say, did somebody, like, plant that? Did
you know? Like, that kid just lost their mom or that kid is having a really hard time adjusting because they've only been here for a month and they don't know anybody. They know I don't, but I can I can see it? Yeah. I just think it's being open. But but for me, really, it it what helps me is, again, rent, is before I go into a school or before I go into a presentation, I always listen to No Day But Today, which is what Adena Minzel calls her version No Day But Today, but it's the song
Another Day in Rent. And I always say to myself, No Day But Today, no moment but right now. Just be fully present and don't worry about everything else that's going on. And and we can get back to that when you leave this school, but that's that's how I stay grounded. Yeah. I think, likely, the reason why you have that magical ability is because you learned that your own pain was worth helping. You know? You learned that you were worthwhile enough to be heard because you have to
hear yourself too as a kid. You have to decide that you're worth sticking around for. It's a Yeah. It's a tricky little line to cross. Yeah. I didn't want to. I end my presentations with the 7th 8th graders by reading aloud a poem that I wrote for adults in which there is no Jay. It's all John. As you've seen, it's hard for me, like, I go back and forth between saying myself and Jake, but we're we're all 1. And in that poem, I share with kids that when I was 14, I went on the
Oprah Winfrey Show. And a lot of them don't know who Oprah is, but I I know I I tell them in a moment as much as I can about Oprah, mostly focusing on Oprah Winfrey loves books, and she has a book club. And I told Oprah that I never wanted to get better because I didn't think I could ever get better. And a lot of kids, when I read that part, say, woah. Like, that I that I that I said that out loud, that I didn't think I would ever be able to to turn off
that voice. But for them to be able to see there is a way through, and there is a path through, and that there is a way to find joy again in your life. And I tie it then back to that it's musicals and music and theater and story. So Yeah. And whatever that sense. Yeah. It did. And whatever that but I really believe you again, you have to walk through a fire so you see other people walking through their fire. This is like everyone has a battle.
Every single human being, no matter how together they might seem, is going through something. Yeah. It's such an important message. And you have a new book coming out. I do. So I have a a book coming out. It's very different from Louder Than Hunger. Yeah. I'll I'll I know your, listeners won't be able to see it, but it's called Ruthie Rose's Big Idea. And it's about a little girl named Ruthie Rose who wakes up with this big, bright, beautiful idea. And her big, bright, beautiful idea, I didn't
know for a long time. But this little girl kept telling me she had this big, bright, beautiful idea. So I had to write the book in order to figure out what it is, and I'll spoil it and share. Her big, bright, beautiful idea is to create a poetry place within her school, which is a space for kids to come together and share their passions and interests and to connect through poetry. I love the illustrations. Oh, aren't they wonderful? Yeah. Holly Haddam is the illustrator.
They're they're so vibrant. They, like, jump off the page. Yeah. Really beautiful. How is that as a as somebody who writes books that oh, god. They're gorgeous. Who write books that have images in them? What is that kind of process in finding an illustrator like? Yeah. It's that's the, like, most exciting part of the process.
It's different for different publishing houses, different contracts, but the way that I do it with my editor is when we're done with a manuscript, we say, okay, this is the final. I go away, and I create, like, a portfolio in some ways of people's art, and I share it with her and the justification for why I think each of those artists would be good for the book. And then she does the same. And almost every time there's one person we both have picked, and then we hope that person says yes.
So, yeah, I've been I've been very lucky. All the illustrators of each book are are are magical and wonderful. Yeah. I love it. Why do you go to New York to write? Why there? Yeah. Well, it it it's really because of the Bethesda Fountain in Central Park. I learned about the Bethesda Fountain from Tony Kushner's Angels in America. Not through everything Well, I've now seen the play, on stage, but through the miniseries that had Meryl Streep and lots of other actors like,
Emma Thompson. I was just fascinated with the opening sequence that always ended with the angel's face, and then the angel turns and looks at you in this really interesting way. And I would, like, watch that on repeat. And I had never been to New York before at the time, but remember saying, one day, I'm gonna go to New York, and I'm gonna visit this statue. But I didn't know that that statue would end up being like a muse for me.
And whenever I'm stuck, I go there and I talk to that statue, and I do a lot of prewriting sitting next to the statue. The walk from where I stay in in Manhattan, I would stay at 46th in Broadway. The walk from there to Bethesda Fountain, I'm, like, clearing my brain and opening my heart, I always tell kids.
But then I spent so much time with Bethesda when I was working on Louder Than Hunger that Bethesda becomes the character in Louder Than Hunger, but I had to change the name from Bethesda to Frieden because I do not live in New York City. Weird. Like, I walk in the park here and all that, and it's lovely, and there's dogs, and it's fun and all that. But there is something maybe it's because so many riders have walked that park and their energy is there
or something. Yeah. But there is something extra about walking through Central Park as far as it eliciting this creative being of just existence. Especially in October when the leaves are changing. That that's my favorite. You're wearing a coat. I don't like it as much when it's a 100 degrees. No. It's not fun when it's hot. Right? It's very hot in California right now. It's hot. So very hot. No. The fall I mean, the fall is the best everywhere.
Yeah. I love fall. Chicago Chicago spring though is perfection. Chicago's It's become shorter and shorter, but, yeah, I do love it. Tell people how they might find you or how they can get you know, you've written a ton of books now, and you you do the touring and you talk, and you've got all this stuff going on. What's the best way for people to follow you? Yeah. So the best way is, my name, johnshu, j o h n s c h u dot com. And then that has links to all the ways to to connect.
Yeah. I'll put stuff on heyhumanpodcast.com on their links page as well. There, it's mine. I mean, I don't know who they are. It's just me. All the people in my mind will put that for you. They will do it for you. Yeah. This is such a lovely conversation. I'm Oh, thank you. Yeah. I'm really glad you're out in the world doing this work. I think it's incredibly important.
Yeah. Thank you. And you too. I love I love all I I I looked I listened to a lot of episodes, but I looked I read through every single description, which I think is like a 194. And I I love that you bring in so many different types of people, and I love that, like, I didn't know what we were gonna talk about. That's my favorite my favorite way to enter a conversation. Mine too. I jot down a couple little things that I wanna make sure I hit, but I don't have questions. I don't yeah.
For me, it's important to just be present in the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. No day but today. No day but today. Exactly. And actually, it's 423 episodes. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was way off. No. It's okay. I think that I the the iTunes one only shows you a certain amount at a time, but no. There's I've been doing it 8 years. There's a ton. That's amazing. It's a little bonkers. Yeah. So and thank you, Molly. And Yes, all. Thank you, Molly. Great. I wish you
so much success. And thank you for seeing kids because it's so necessary. Yeah. Like, I what you were saying about being 17 in the library, I I would have like, that really that really spoke to my heart that the librarian knew to to not allow you just to like a lot of times he would. You'd say no. I want this kid to stay here. They need more time to adjust. This is the safe haven right now. And then we'll take baby steps to get them out of here, but she knew she knew you'd be okay.
Yeah. And she gave me 2 weeks to wallow in my fear and and then was like, okay. That's good. Good. You'll be fine. Let's do it. Yeah. Oh, and I'm glad you worked. Yeah. But thank you. This is so much fun. Absolutely. And thank you for listening, everybody, and thank you, John. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. This is fantastic. Thank you. Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. Bye.