Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast. This is episode 372, and I had a conversation with Jennifer Howard Hammer. Jennifer is a retired peace officer with over 20 years experience. She started as a reserve deputy sheriff and went on to be a correctional counselor at the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.
She received a bronze star from the California State Prison in Sacramento, and the Medal of Valor from the C D C R. She retired in 2021 from that world, and these days she specializes in event planning, floral design and photography services. Uh, she's a really lovely woman. We had such a great conversation, and she came from a very intense childhood as many of us have. And her story is really inspirational. I'm excited for y'all to hear it. Check out. Hey, human podcast for links.
And to learn more about my guests and the show, check out Susan ruth.com to learn more about me and my other artistic endeavors, follow Susan Ruth is and hey, human podcast on social media. Find my albums on Spotify, apple Music, Amazon music, or wherever you get your music. Also, check out my Relationships in Sex show with sexologist and healthcare practitioner, Mara Edelman on YouTube. Under Are We There yet?
Podcast show rate review, and subscribe to, Hey, human Podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. And thank you for listening. Be well, be safe, take care of each other. And, uh, here we go. Jennifer Howard Hammer, welcome to Hey, human. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to dig in. I met you when I was doing work for another show, and just by virtue of chatting with you, I thought this woman is fascinating. Oh, thank you. You have. Lived a very interesting life. I'd. Love to dig in.
Yes. It's been, it's been a very, uh, interesting long journey. Lots of ups, lots of downs, but lots of perseverance as well. Well, let's. Dig in. Where are you from originally? I'm from Chico, California. It's about half my life there. Uh, the other half here in northern California, Sacramento area for a short period of time. I lived in, uh, Phoenix, Arizona. Uh, not necessarily my happiest moments, but it was, um, a journey. We came back and thank goodness we did.
And it's kind of like I started my life in Chico, went down Sacramento, Phoenix, came back to Sacramento and finished it back up in, in, uh, Chico for my younger years. And all of my adult life has been here in the Roseville, Sacramento area. What took you traveling all over like that? Um, so I was a child. My mother had six kids by six different gentlemen, or not so gentlemen.
So my older brother was put up for adoption. And my mom was very young, um, when she had, uh, my brother, and still 19 when she had me. And so I think, uh, she was just in a situation where she didn't necessarily have all of the life skills that she needed to and definitely didn't have the resources.
And I ended up becoming a part of the foster system. Um, I was very blessed because of that foster system I was with my family and, and, and very blessed that I wasn't part of the foster system that a lot of children are part of these days. So does that mean that you were fostered with your siblings? No, I was, um, actually my mom left me on my aunt's, uh, doorstep before she moved to, uh, Phoenix.
And when I say on her doorstep, that is literally on her doorstep, I was five or six and she took my little brother and moved to Arizona and started her life there. My aunt took care of me. And then my, um, I moved to my grandma and grandpa. Uh, they took care of me, and then I went back to my grandmother. She took care of me and my grandma thought it was time that I go back with my mom, which was literally the worst thing that could have ever happened.
Uh, went back with her, moved me out of the state. So I was away from all my family and support, um, basically the people that I, I knew all my life and then went to Arizona. Um, life was not exactly fun. Very, very hard. Um, and then when I was, uh, 16, there was an intervention, which is another interesting story. We can get into that whenever you want. And then, um, came,
awarded the court an intervention with your mother. So it was, um, I was living with my mom at the time, the entire, every time I was with my mom, I was either physically or sexually abused the entire time. And, um, finally at, uh, 1516, um, I had had enough of the, uh, physical and sexual abuse, um, from, and it was always her, either her boyfriends or husbands or their friends or whoever. I had finally had enough and, uh, tried to call my aunt.
Uh, 'cause I was very, very abusive situation, actually. Um, my little brothers, um, were getting beat on quite a bit with, uh, the bell. And as long as I was there, I would always step in. So that meant I got it twice as bad. I was nailed in my room. They nailed the door shut and windows shut. The cops finally came after I was able to break out, I was trying to get to a door and my mother put her arm into try to grab my hair. And I ended up, um, shutting the door on her and it caused damage.
So while I was at school that day, she, uh, called the cops at the urging of my stepfather. And then they lied, pressed charges, and said that I held her arm and broke it and be on her. But I was the one with on, with all the bruises. I was the one with the handcuffs that they didn't have keys for. A sheriff had to actually call a different deputy to come out to unlock, unlock my handcuffs. I begged him to take me with, with him.
And back then they didn't intervene like they do now, unfortunately, next day, uh, the sheriff's come to the school and I'm thinking, yay, finally I am gonna get some sort of protection. And they arrested me 16 and took me to juvenile hall and said that, uh, all of this occurred. It was a lie. And so while I was very, um, frightened, very naive, I was a very naive child. I didn't understand, I was scared to death. Uh,
but I was in the juvenile hall. And when, um, they had my court date, they basically said, well, we'll, we'll go ahead and release you, uh, but you have to follow all these rules. And I said, um, no, no, I'll stay, I'll stay here till I'm 18, if that's okay, because 'cause I'd rather stay here than never go back there with them. And at that point, someone finally listened, someone finally heard my words, they were able to get ahold of my aunt, uh, who was like my mom.
She was always my solid and my grandparents. And they came and, uh, the judge awarded them custody of me. And I was blessed enough to stay with them until I finally graduated high school. I stayed with my aunt for about a year, and then maybe not quite a year, and then I moved back with my grandma and grandpa because, um, they had the most stable environment. And then I went back home to kids that I, you know, finally went to school with when I was in second and third grade.
So I was able to finally graduate. Were people hearing your cries for help all along, or did they just tell you to sort of listen to your mother and as they did at one point in time when people, as you said, didn't listen to kids the way they do now? Right. So, um, my Aunt Judy, uh, and my grandparents, they knew something was wrong. Um, just from behavior. I thought I was acting normal. But, uh, it's kind of interesting now. I, um, I pick up on, on behavior with all humans.
I am, I'm very avid human watcher. I pay attention to details. And so I'm able to pick that kind of stuff out now very quick when there's something not quite right, whether it's a child or an adult, but they knew something wasn't right. And they, um, they did try to get me some counseling, but back then I was afraid, you know, you, you as a child, you feel like it's your fault, or like you're hiding a big secret, and you don't want something bad to happen to someone that you love.
And so with that fear that I had, um, I would go to counseling and I would, I would absolutely lie. Um, oh, everything's fine. We're good. And she was a great counselor, and she, she didn't push, but she would talk to me and let me know that she knew something was up. You know, it didn't get very far, but I did at least feel comfortable with her. Later in my life, when I lived with my grandparents, part of the,
the court orders were to get me counseling. And, and I remember my grandma, you know, saying like, we've tried to get her counseling, um, counseling isn't gonna help her. She's not gonna open up. And so they said, well, just, you know, keep trying. So my grandma made a, an appointment with someone, and I remember her last name, but I remember her name was Rita, counselor Rita. And, and Chico, she was kind of a hippie, kind of earthy.
She said to me, Jennifer, do you think everybody does this? Because they are, they have an ulterior motive. Why do you think they're doing this? Why do you think they're bringing you to counseling? And I said, because they think something's wrong with me. And she says, no, they don't think something's wrong with you. They think you've been through something traumatic that is affecting you. And I was like, oh, wow. I never really had somebody explain it to me like that.
And at 16, I was older, I could, you know, I could reason a little bit more, but I also, at 16, I was pissed off. I was really, really angry because I was tired of feeling like the punching bag, I guess. I, I started being used, used up, I felt used up kind of, she said, um, I would really like it if you could open up to me and if you could, I think that we can help you get from this where you're at right now. We can go and we can work through some of the things that are deep down
inside that are ailing you. And she said, will you just try? And I was like, okay, at this point, what's it gonna hurt? And I finally submitted to that day, being honest about my life, my past. I, I just tried to say, okay, this is not my fault. I didn't have a choice in this. And I think as kids get older, you feel like you did have a choice because you were older, but you don't, because you live with the fear. You live with the fear of somebody finding out you live with the fear of,
of people judging you. Um, my mom knew, and she denied it all the time, um, up until the day she died. And I finally was able to tell her that it was okay, mom, I love you and I know that, you know, you probably choose not to remember because it was so painful. I mean, think about it as a mom to knowingly do some of the things that you partake, partook in, and to know what people were doing to your child and or children, and to the fear that she must have also had. But regardless,
you chose to have children. It's your job to protect us. And you chose not to do that. And I just told her, I was like, I love you. You're my mom. I don't necessarily like what has happened. I'm whom I am today because of what I went through. But I love you and I forgive you, even if you're never gonna give me what I, what I thought I needed. I just want you to know I love you and I forgive you. And I was so thankful because I was able to do that about a week before she
tragically died. Um, unexpectedly. But yeah. So anyhow, this counselor was able to get me to do what's called interactive in role play therapy. And it's something I'd never done before. And it was so, it was kind weird. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, but it, it worked. Is that, that the one where you pretend the chair is your parent? Is it that one? Yeah. Or, um, it can be the chair is your parent, or, um, at this point where she would say, okay, I'm, I'm him.
What do you wanna say to me? How did that make you feel? Like? And so I was able to do that. But before we started that, she also said, you know, there's stages. You know, in order for anybody to get help, you have to admit that there was a problem. It's the first step in anything, drug, alcohol, abuse, any kind of traumatic moment. If you don't admit that it happens or you don't admit that there is a problem, you can't fix what you don't acknowledge. Mm-hmm. .
And so she said, you know, that's the first part. And then she says, and then once you you do that, then you're gonna get really, really pissed off. Oh. And I did, like, I, I did not realize how much anger, like sheer anger that I was carrying. And then she said, you're gonna be really sad. And I remember sobbing,
like, where I couldn't breathe. And then she says, you're gonna take a breath and we're gonna talk about it, and then we're gonna give you tools, and then you're gonna accept it, and then you're gonna move on. And for the first time in my life, I've made a promise to myself that I would always talk freely and openly about anything that happened. I just always had to be very careful with whom I spoke at. Because some of the things that had happened specifically were pretty tragic and
could be very offensive. Offensive in the sense that some people don't want to know that kind of trauma. They don't wanna visualize. So if you tell them, well, this and this specific act and this, and this is how this happened, they're just like, oh my God, oh my gosh. Like, I can't, like no more. And it's kinda like even within the prison system, which I also work, sometimes the public and people just aren't prepared for that kind of reality.
Unfortunately, though, that's how things get perpetuated, right? We don't talk about it no matter how heinous it is. We have to have those conversations in order to facilitate and end to that kind of trauma and abuse. Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100%. I don't, I I remember as a young child, um, my grandfather saying, you know, if you're not honest, then what, what do you have to give somebody who knows nothing about you other than your
word? And so, I have always tried to be as honest as I can be in my adult life. My, my son, I've told a couple white lies too. 'cause that's what we do as parents. And he calls me out and he's like, you're lying. And I'm like, well, yes, I guess technically I am, but the reason I'm doing this is because of this. It's not because I'm trying to deceive you. It's more like, I don't wanna let you down in a hard way. And he is like, okay, mom,
but you know, it's still, and I'm like, okay, I get it. I, I try to be as, as open and honest about any and everything that I possibly can because I, I think it's important. I think it's not my problem if I'm honest with somebody and they can't handle that honesty. I come across sometimes as being harsh and I'm not. I'm, I'm not. I, I, I, at least that's not ever really my intention. If I trust me, if I wanna be harsh to somebody, you're never gonna have a doubt about it.
You're gonna know my intention. . I feel that children who have suffered abuse have a particular kind of stoicism. How did you find a path to forgiveness for your mom? 'Cause the burden that I was carrying, realizing as we get older, that you can't change anybody no matter how much you love them, no matter how many roads you give them, no matter how much support or opportunity you provide for somebody, you can't make them do anything. The one thing that I wanted from my mom
was affirmation. And I told her I am, I said, mom, the only thing I really want is for you to say it. I know Jenny, I should have, I should have done more. And I didn't. And I'm sorry. And what I got was, well, I just didn't know. And, you know, I can't change it now. And okay, if you want me to say I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And it's like, no, I want you to say you're sorry because you're sorry. I want you to admit where you failed
me. I want you to see what I went through as a child that you were supposed to protect and still know that I love you. And I've tried, I've tried to have that relationship and build it. Um, it's, it's always been a strained relationship with my mom, but it never meant I didn't love her. It never meant that I didn't want more for her. But again, I can't want more than she does. That must've been complicated when she passed away. And what's her first name? I, I like to say that. Virginia.
Virginia. Mm-hmm. . So when Virginia passed, it's been a year. Oh, so not very long. Mm-hmm. April was one year. I imagine having complicated relationship with my own mother. I imagine having them gone and knowing that that's it. You, you won't get that apology or that understanding or even really hearing what forgiveness means, you know? 'cause they have to forgive themselves as well. Exactly. You would hope. I mean, that's, that's the hope at least.
How did you handle her death knowing that all those things weren't going to come to pass? Or did it matter anymore because you had met yourself in that space and, and parent parented yourself, for lack of a better word, I guess. I always had told myself, and I told my little brothers and my, um, my little sister. I always would say, I've taken care of Aunt Judy until her dying breath. Uh, she died from terminal cancer. I've taken on that financial burden.
I have tried to include everybody as much as I, I possibly could. I took car of Aunt Judy, who I considered to be my mom, and I said, you guys let me know what you need from me. But when mom passes, that's, that's she's your responsibility. And I said, you know, I'll send flowers. I'll be there for whatever you need. Because I felt like I was just going to emotionally detach. And ironically, God works in mysterious ways. And, and thank God he does.
It was by chance that I, um, I'd been off and on in contact with my mom, uh, through text. And I just felt like, you know, she was getting older and kind of not necessarily playing with a full deck, but I mean that, you know, if it happens as, as people age, just wanting to talk to her and just let her know, like, Hey, we moving forward, we, I you need to, you need to meet your, your youngest grandson. 'cause you've never met him. Um, you've only been around park two or three times.
I don't wanna deprive you of that as an old lady. And so, um, one night we were just talking and I don't know, I just felt compelled to tell her all the things I needed to, to say to her. And we bawled. Like I cried for hours. We were on the phone for probably close to two hours, hour and 45 minutes there about. And it, and, and I felt the relief that I got to say what I, I felt like I needed to say. And then if she passed, um, I was good.
I was gonna be fine. When I got the call at 1230, that mom was in, uh, the emergency and, uh, that she was hemorrhaging and they couldn't stop the bleeding. And it wasn't looking good that they were doing c p r on her. I remember just, uh, like inside, um, I don't know if you wanna call it, like controlled chaos, where I kind of just was like, oh my God, really? Is this going on? And then, um, about 15 minutes later, my little brother called me and said, well, or sis she's, she's gone. I was in,
my bathroom was 11 ish, close to 12. I fell to the floor. I sobbed uncontrollably. I puked, I cried some more. And then I put my clothes on and said, all right, now I need to go there and be there for my, my little brothers and sister. And I need to make sure that they treat my mom with dignity and respect and that everything is done the proper way.
I didn't think I was gonna be that emotional and, uh, still to this day, um, with how, um, my little sister, who was kinda like my mom's best friend, and I'm glad my little sister never had to deal with any of the stuff that we ever did, ever. My little brother dealt with some of it. My, uh, middle little brother who is dead now. Um, he is, he, he was a, a tortured soul. And then my older brother is bipolar schizophrenic with
multiple personality. Like, he, uh, lives on the streets now. You know, it's, it's, it, it was, it was a whole gamut of things that I didn't think I was gonna deal with My little sister and I don't really get along real well. And she's been a very entitled child. It's interesting to think about how each one of us in a family, in a way have a different parent, even if it's the same parent. Right.
We're parented differently and they behave differently upon us. They, they're, you're, they're like, we have a one relationship. Like my big brother has a totally different relationship with my mom. Right, right. Yeah. And it's, and it's, you know, I love my little sister. I, I was 18 when she was born. I was so excited. I, I was so excited to finally have a little sister. I love her to death. I love all of my siblings. I care about them all deeply.
So I have two brothers that are still alive. Well, I should say three because, um, I, my older brother that was put up for adoption, I've reconnected with him. We haven't met in person, but we talk, um, you know, through Facebook and, and what have you. That's interesting too. Right? Isn't it crazy. What the life, what life he had. He had a, an amazing life. Yeah. Yeah. He said he was very blessed. He had a, a great life. His parents, um,
were always good and kind to him. And he had a great upbringing. And, um, he was, you know, he was super compassionate. Like, I'm sorry that, you know, it was so hard for you, you know, you guys. And I said, don't be sorry. I'm like, you know, I'm thankful that you never had to experience that. Yeah. So. Your brother that passed away, what's his name? Bj. So BJ who passed away, he, I assume had a lot of the same things to endure that you and perhaps the eldest brother of yours.
The, so the eldest. Yeah. So the eldest didn't really, um, he was kind of the golden child, the, the oldest younger brother. So my little brother right underneath me, he was kind of the golden child. He was also pretty entitled. His dad came back into his life. My littlest brother, who I kind of raised off and on, who now that he is, it's kind of an estranged relationship right now. But I think he also has some mental health, um, things that he's,
he's working through. Um, 'cause he is had several concussions from riding rodeo and, and what have you. But, uh, yeah, my, my middle, um, little brother, bj, he had a really rough life. He, him and I, he had, I think he had a, a probably a worse life than, or upbringing than I did because he was there and his dad wasn't, um, involved. And my littlest brother's dad, who was the one that abused me, adopted him, and then changed his name,
beat the ever living shit out of him, every opportunity. So, you know, um, he'd been in and out of prison. He had drug addiction and yeah, he was killed in a vehicle accident from one of his dope head ex-girlfriends. And then she lied. . Yeah. Well. I love so much for one family to have to go through, but I, I don't know. I feel like that story is not an uncommon one, which is also so desperately sad. Right. Unfortunately, people don't feel compelled to talk about it. And, and they do.
My little sister still believes to this day that none of that happened to me. That's insulting. And it's disgusting because what that tells me is that first of all, you don't have compassion. You don't have the ability to be compassionate or empathetic. And you wouldn't know that because you've lived such a privileged life and you believed everything mom said to you because she was your best friend. 'cause my little sister's socially awkward.
But for you to say to me, you don't believe everything that I'm saying is true, what kind of sick, disgusting person would I have to be to make these things up? Like it makes me wanna physically vomit thinking about it. And, and I said, you know, like I've, I've told her numerous times, you go ahead and you believe that. I'm glad that, that you have, you have the right and the opportunity and the ability to do that because
you are never a victim of that. And I'm thankful for that, disgusted with your behavior and your thoughts, but you're also entitled to those as well. So sometimes you just gotta accept it and move on. I'm really that your story is devastating. And I'm sorry that you had to go through that. But I gotta say, you are one of the stronger women I've ever met. And I mean, I don't know you well, but just from the conversations we've had,
it is a weird conundrum, right? We think about this stuff that we endure, right? And as you said, it creates the person you are today, right? And so there's the part of us that think, okay, well who would I be without that? Even though, can I just be that without all that horrible stuff happening to me? Right? Yeah. How, how, how did that shape you moving forward? You have a husband, do you have a family? How did, were you able to not bring that trauma into relationships?
Or did that take time to figure out how to navigate? So I have always said that in life, you know, if you were given that one thing, what would you change in your life? What's the one thing you would change in your life? And I've always said, I wish that I would have understood and realized what college was back when I was younger.
I wish I would've gotten more of a college education. Um, I did get some college education later in my life, um, in my late, uh, twenties and, well, I should say actually more like thirties, but, you know, late twenties, early thirties. But at that time, you know, having your own home and, and having to work all the time. And, and people do it all the time. But I got to experience that struggle.
And it's real. That's the one thing that I would've changed. And people say, well, why wouldn't you change all of the other stuff that happened to you? And I said, because it made me who I am. It, it gave me the fortitude to fight and succeed. I'm a, I'm a survivor. That doesn't mean that I don't have bad days. That doesn't mean that there are days that I'm just like, I, I cannot, I I need to get in my bedroom and I need to go to sleep because I cannot deal
with this day. I have those days, but I'm also honest. And I allow myself opportunity. I give myself the, the permission to feel that way. Sometimes defeated or angry or helpless. And then, you know, I feel sorry for myself. And then I'm like, all right, put your big girl panties on. You got shit to do. Go get your stuff done. It's time to be a big girl. And, you know, I laugh 'cause I talk to myself all the time. And, and like, sometimes you just gotta do that.
Sometimes you just have to talk yourself through it. . And that's what got me through all the years as, um, as a kid is I would always talk myself through it. I would always think about the positive things that happened in my life to get me through the negative things I was going through. And I've always known that I've had choices because of the positive role models I've had. My aunts and my uncles from my, my grandparents, you know, my Aunt Audra, who's like my sister who, um,
has went through a lot of trials and tribulations. She's like my big sister. We grew up, you know, off and on together through my aunt. Um, and, and my grandparents being selfless and taking on a responsibility of taking care of a human when they didn't have to. Like being a mom, we choose to be moms. And people say, well, I didn't choose to get pregnant. Yes, you did. If you had sex, you chose to get pregnant. Sorry. But that's a choice I'm very big on.
Everybody has choices and some choices have consequences. You just have to realize through life that, you know, you, you just like Dory, you just gotta keep on swimming. You just gotta keep on swimming. Just keep on moving forward. . Yes. Hatred saying of, of many of us, really. Uh, right. Well, how did you figure out how to navigate relationships moving forward, especially adult relationships where vulnerability and trust are such a huge component?
Right. So when I was in my, um, teens, uh, 16, 17, 18, I was very promiscuous. I just thought that's what you do. That's, that's just kind of what you do. And then once I graduated high school by the skin of my teeth, my aunt gave me the opportunity to move down here with her. And, um, she's an executive chef, one of the first female, um, chefs of Sacramento. And she said, Hey, I can get you a job at the Holiday Inn. So I came down and I started working and learning from then how to,
you know, be kind of a big girl. Um, even during that period, it was still from 16 to 18, I was kind of a mess. Every time I see my grandma, I always, every single time, every single time I apologize. And I say, grandma, I'm so sorry for the stress that I put you through. 'cause back then, you know, we didn't have cell phones. They couldn't, they couldn't check on you. And I just, the guilt that I have from that, um, I don't know if I'll ever still give myself permission to forgive myself for
that. I'm just so thankful that my grandma didn't give up on me. But she also gave me tough love. And, and I know it killed her sometimes. And I tried to use the things that I learned from them. My grandma and grandpa were married, um, for over 30 years, uh, before my grandpa passed. They're amazing. My grandma and grandpa were amazing. My Aunt Judy, um, always showed me love and encouragement and, uh, good work ethic. She was my solid through so much.
And I just took what I learned from them in, in those relationships that I have. All of my aunts and uncles have been married, um, to their significant other, their entire life. I was married, um, I met a guy at the Holiday Inn I got married to when I was, uh, 21. Uh, we had dated for about two years. 'cause I was almost 19, uh, lasted about a year and a couple months, couple months. And I realized like, yeah, this is not, this is not the relationship that I want .
And, you know, you also learn that. You think that that's just what you're supposed to do. At least back then, you know, you, you work, you find somebody who treats you nice, and then that's what you do. You get married. Well, thank goodness I didn't have any kids. And then I met my husband that I have now. We have been together this year. It'll be 29 years. And, uh, we've been married. It'll be 17 years this year.
You know, it's a lot of ups and downs. Um, there are days sometimes where, you know, you just don't feel like you can get through it. But life is a journey. It's not a destination. And with anything good in life, there's some sort of fight. And if you turn your back and walk away when you know that you have,
like, this is your person. I, I've known he was my person from like within, within one month of meeting, I like, I knew, I'm like, oh my God, this, this, this is the guy we dated for almost 12 years before we got married. Uh, because he was in a previous relationship. Um, he actually is 10 years older than me, 10 and a half years older than me. So he has a, a family that he had prior to. Um, so we're kind of a blended. Yeah. I just try to take it one day at a time. I, you know,
and you have peaks and valleys in relationships. Um, marriages are, are hard. They're not easy. And people get into 'em, I think, way too fast. Um, and they get out of 'em even faster. Um, unfortunately, they get out of 'em faster when they have kids, and that's hard. Um, so I don't know. Yeah, I guess just through life you have to kind of look and see what you're doing right, what you're not, and figure, try to figure out, you know, what's, what's the right path and what's the wrong path.
I will tell you that I am a fierce protector of my children, of all children that are in my care or in my, my, um, well, anywhere. I don't care if I don't know you or not of my, my, my family and my friends. I'm very, very protective. I'm very loyal. And you've taken that and you made, you started your career. Am I correct in that? Yeah. You started your career dealing with children who needed that?
So I started my career. Um, I, you know, worked numerous restaurant jobs and that, you know, I had done that for probably, gosh, I think I was 23, uh, when I, um, had met my husband. And, um, actually it was 2022 when I met my husband. I didn't know what I was gonna dot. I, I thought, well, maybe I'll be a paramedic. I mean, I was just, I was, I didn't really care. I didn't know I, I was kind of,
kind of lost of what I wanted to do with my life. And, but I knew that I didn't wanna be a food server for the rest of my life because it was hard on, it's hard on your body. And so, uh, at the restaurant that I worked at, we had a, we always had a bunch of, of, uh, cops that came in that we would take care of. Um, and one of 'em had said to me, have you ever thought about going into law enforcement? And I think to myself, I'm like, law enforcement, really? Yeah. I used a smoke pot. Uh,
I, um, have made some bad choices in my life. Uh, my financial situation wasn't grand based off my upbringing. I should have been an inmate. You know, I didn't break the laws, um, you know, anything like that. But just from my perspective, I felt like, oh, really? You think I should do? And then, but they said, well, come on, on a ride along. I went on a ride along and I was hooked. I knew from that day, uh, which was January 31st, I went and, uh, did a ride along.
And it was 1993. No, it was 94 going to 95. I was like, oh yeah, this is what I need to do. I worked really long and hard. I worked for probably close to eight years before, um, I finally got a full-time position as an officer. As an officer, yes. I volunteered for the sheriff's department for two years doing undercover prostitution, stings sex worker for all those things. Right. Sex worker, right? Yes. And, but that was also another, you know, that was also another thing is that, um,
I actually wrote a paper on it for college. You know, everybody says it's a victimless crime, and it's so far from a victimless crime. So we could go on for hours, uh, with, with just that. Well, they, they deserve to be out there. Well, no life probably or circumstance, put them out there because they didn't have option guidance and felt like they didn't have choice. Everyone has a choice. So that's the one thing I'm not gonna give you a buy for.
But the choices that they felt, you know, like once again, um, like with even suicide, where I talk a lot about that too. The desperation in some people's lives to lead them to a choice that is so permanent, the fear, the pimps treat them like garbage. They keep them hopped up on the dope. They get be on regularly from their johns because they're Johns now, after they get done having, you know, whatever acts done that they're mad at themselves,
that they just went and were with a sex worker. So, no, I'm gonna take my anger out on you. If the sex worker isn't a, a, you know, protected, what about the, the wives and husbands and children that they bring home potential diseases to, and they never tell them. Um, you, the, the taxpayer's money, they pay for the drug treatments, the medical of these sex traffick, you know, women and men too. 'cause it's becoming a bigger thing now with, with young boys and young men. It, it's, it's,
it's not victimless. It's, there are several victims everywhere you go. So anyhow, I did that. I learned so much about it. Went, uh, made it through an academy. I paid to go through an academy. Uh, it was one of the hardest academies in the state of California at the time. Uh, the only other two academies that were a little rougher were, um, C H P or Los Angeles pd. Um, I went through the Sacramento County Sheriff's Academy, was offered, um,
a contingent job. Um, but I had to pass my psych and the medical, obviously medical wasn't a problem. I go to the psych, the psychologist called me a liar. I told them everything because I was honest. And they told me that I was a complete liar. They're like, why didn't he get arrested? Well, 'cause back then they didn't do that. Well, did you ever think people didn't believe you? Why wouldn't they believe me? Like why? Why? Well, because you need attention.
Did you think that I needed to get attention By that, I mean, what a, that's a pretty sick mind to come up with some of the stuff like, just like not good. not good. And so I felt victimized by this process. It was a man, it was, um, Dr. Hartgrave, I don't wanna put his name out there 'cause I don't care. He's not around anymore, I don't think. But whatever he was known to do that either he liked you or he didn't.
It was one of the only times in the history that they were aware of up until that point that I, um, had a lieutenant and a captain that could not believe it. Um, after I, I volunteered over a thousand hours of my time to the department trying to show them, taking report, writing, doing all this stuff on my own, putting myself through an academy with the hope that I was gonna have a job at the end. He, he failed me on my psych. So then, um, I get this letter saying,
well, thank you, but no thank you. You can apply again in a year. I'm like, what? So I can apply again in a year, go to him and then go through this all over again. 'cause the application process is brutal. I asked if there's a way to appeal it. And so they said, yeah, there's an appeal process. So I did. I went and paid for it. Uh, went to another psychologist who basically did not understand what this doctor was talking about and passed
me. And then they said, okay, great. Well you passed, but, um, our decision still stands. Uh, you can apply again in a year. I'm like, okay, well I wish you would've told me about that, but whatever. At that point, I didn't care. At least I had somebody else saying that, no, you're not losing your shit. You actually are pretty sound. And so I did, I reapplied again. I went through the whole process again. Uh, at this point then they had said, um,
because there was some drama with my husband's ex-wife. And then of course, uh, the background investigator at that point was friends with her. Didn't get too far that time. Um, which I was like, you know, it's just amazing the politics that, that people play. So by this time, we're at three, three years in. And so I go and apply, um, to Sutter County Sheriff's Department, and they send me through all the background, the interviews, polygraph,
all that good stuff. I finally got offered a job. So I was working there, reserve deputy. And, uh, so I still, I worked there part-time. Then I worked, um, at another job. And, um, I did that for just under five years, or right about five years. In the meantime, I was applying with the, I would say the dark side, uh, the Department of Corrections at the time.
It's now department Corrections and rehabilitation. And so, um, went through a long process there and was kind of getting drug through the mud. And then I just didn't hear anything. I'm like, so does that just mean it's over and that you're not gonna hire me? So I hadn't heard anything for about six months. And so I finally, I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna still fight. I'm gonna fight for my, my passion was to become a cop. I called the background investigator.
They ended up, um, talking or getting to the guy that was assigned to me. And I talked to him and he is like, yeah, he is like, well, you know, we had some, a couple of questionable things. Why don't you come in and let's talk about it? And so I went in and the things that they were talking about, I was like, why didn't anybody call me? Why did we, you know, why did I have to call you guys? These are all things that, that can be like, they're factual. Like you don't have to just take my word.
I can direct you to where you need to go to find this information if you don't believe what I'm telling you. What I learned through that whole process is that, um, being honest on your, uh, job application for law enforcement is not exactly the right thing to do. But I will tell you that I did not lie on my job applications, not any of them. I told them I had experimented with drugs, which is one reason why it took me longer. I told them that I had, uh,
been fired from a job. I told them, um, that I didn't pass an, uh, psych background, um, by one person. Um, I had had three other psych backgrounds and passed all of 'em. So, you know, it was just like the, the ups and downs. Well, I finally get through that, get offered, uh, a job with the Department of Corrections, go through their four month academy. And I was 30 at the time. And then, um, went and worked for the Department of Corrections. Uh,
was there for nine years or thereabout. Um, was assaulted twice, um, by inmates. So I have permanent damage in my back from it. Uh, was medically retired for four years. Went back in 2015. Had to deal with a lot of workplace, uh, bullying, A lot of, um, trauma was at, uh, C S P Sacramento off and on for 20 years. Dealt with a lot of, a lot of murder, a lot of stabbings, a lot of hangings, a lot of officer misconduct with, um, a lot of people not being honest. Before I left, I had promoted,
uh, to a correctional counselor. And as a correctional counselor. Um, I really tried to help inmates, um, in level four prisons, try to find some accountability for their actions and tried to give them guidance per the new regulations with C D C R because I will say from the time that I started to the time that I, uh, was medically retired, again from a, an altercation, uh, the department did try and still, I will say I will defend that part of, of C D C R is that they, uh,
they're getting much better about offering programs to inmates, offering educational programs, offering job opportunities, offering counseling, self-help classes, uh, teaching them like job certifications, like plumbing, building maintenance, welding, so on. And these are accredited programs, helping them with their basic, uh, education through school, whether it's a high school diploma or G E d and then getting them signed up for
college. So I had tried really hard, uh, myself and another counselor that I'm very close with, um, we always would say, if, you know, if these inmates are gonna be let out at the rate that they are and they're gonna be my neighbor, then we need to teach 'em to act. Right? And so anyhow, just really trying to help inmates to be better humans, to be better humans. Some of those people need to be incarcerated. There are some that should never, ever be part of society.
So with that being said, that doesn't mean they still can't better themselves in prison and stop some of the behaviors that got them too. Because what you see, especially with, you know, generation after generation going into our penal systems, is you see kids that honestly, that's what they were taught. They were taught how to either die on the streets or to continue the behavior they did on the streets inside the penal institutions.
And so trying to get them to realize that, hey, if there was ever a state you could get out, this is the state. But you have a lot of work to do. And if you do that work, I promise you, you have every opportunity to get out and be a productive human in society. What you did doesn't have to define you. You have to have accountability for it. But it doesn't have to define you.
And you know, there's, there's, you know, some people that are hardcore and they're just like, you know, you're an inmate lover and you're doing too much and you're doing, and my response would always be, well, I'm doing my job. And what does it matter if I help them so that we don't have stabbings? So we don't have officers getting sliced up. We don't have women being assaulted, we don't have other inmates being assaulted. What would it be like if we went to our work in a penal institution
and people started behaving and making better decisions? Why, why, why are you mad at me for, for trying to make that happen? 'cause it's a lost cause. Well, that's your interpretation. I will never give up on humanity. I also think that they benefit financially from having havoc happen because it requires, oh yeah, time to stay around longer after an altercation. They have paperwork. It just adds to their own financial padding.
Oh, there's a lot of corruption in, in C D C R a lot, and they don't want you to talk about it, but it happens on a regular basis. And the sad part is it happens from the top on down. Um, I've been directly, um, targeted from, from that. Again, I still am not going to back down from anyone or anything. Not my, uh, yeah. I don't know how to do that very often. Well. You were created to be who you are, right? You had to fight for yourself and stand up for yourself.
And I think for the folks that have gone through tremendous fires, they develop, if they're lucky, they either become serial killers, right? Or they develop a deep empathy for others, and an understanding that no matter how dismal and abysmal a situation is, there is a way out. Right? Yes, I am. I agree. I try to, I mean, if you don't have hope, you have a dead body hanging in a cell. You have a friend taking their life, you have people making reckless decisions that affect other people.
And that's not, that's not how I get down. I, I try to treat everybody with compassion and kindness until I don't have the ability or the reason to treat you with compassion or kindness. But I'll try talking you through it, because when I'm at that point, you should not have, you should not be surprised that I'm at, I'm, I'm at a point with someone when, um, I get there because I've, I've given you every opportunity.
I've told you like, we're gonna go down this road and you're not gonna like what I'm gonna tell you because it's honest. I was honest with my inmates. Try to be as honest as I can with my children, given their age. Well, your inmates respected of, of you too. I think that it sounded like you facilitated a level of trust and respect where when something was happening, you could step in and say, Hey guys, not okay. And they would. Listen. Oh, I did all the time. Yeah, I did that all the time.
When I'd have an inmate that was, you know, drinking or an inmate that I could see was going down a a hole with drugs, I would tell 'em. I'm like, look, why does your family care more about you than you? Do? You need to cut this crap out? Don't ask me for help. When you're not willing to help yourself, you need to figure it out. All you need to do is ask me, Ms. Howard, I need some help. And I will bend over backwards to get you the help that you need.
And I don't give a shit that you're an inmate, because that's my job. And don't care if you're a coworker that needs it. I don't care who you are. Everyone has somebody who loves them. Everyone. I don't know anyone in this world that doesn't have somebody that cares about them, loves them or likes them. I just don't think so. Even, you know, the bottom feeders, you know, I have zero compassion for child molesters and zero compassion for rapists. Sorry, I don't have it.
I still will treat them with respect if that is my job to do so. And I did. I didn't judge anyone unless you gave me a reason to. And I did. I, I did as much as I possibly could for my inmates when they followed the rules and I give them what they had legally coming to them absolutely every single time. And there was a lot of fallout. You know, I get labeled as an inmate lover. Um, I would, uh, get watched by, um, investigations,
thinking that I was bringing stuff into inmates. I would be ostracized, uh, when I would come into a room and all of a sudden everybody would stop talking. I would get told, uh, you're doing too much. Uh, you need to butt out. No, you don't need to know that. Even if it was my job, I didn't let it stop me from doing my job. But at the end of the day, it was hard. It's, it's hard to not be accepted sometimes. It's hard to not, you know, to have people talk shit about you for doing your job.
Absolutely. And especially in that circumstance, because I feel that prison is just this whole other world in and of itself. It, it has a whole different set of rules and circumstances and, and ethics and codes of honor. And it's just, it's so multilayered. And the minute you walk through those doors, everything is different. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. And, and prisons are based off of gangs. Sad part is,
is that everybody wants to think that it's just the inmates that have gangs. No, it's not for people who have used excessive force, that's technically a crime. You can't beat the shit out of somebody because you have a badge on your chest and then lie about it in your rapport. And I think that, um, people have done that off and on throughout their career and they know it. And I get it. Back then it wasn't as highly publicized and it was accepted,
but it's not anymore. So follow the rules and stop judging these inmates. There are inmates that I will tell you to this day, I'd love to freaking give 'em a five of clubs because they give me so much grief, or were so disrespectful, or were like, just such complete assholes. Like, just cause me so much grief. You know? I mean, I was blessed, thank God again, that I was never gassed, but I have lots of friends that were. Can you explain what that is?
Yeah. So being gassed is, um, when an inmate will throw some sort of liquid or substance on you. So that could be key. It could be water, um, it could be feces, blood. A lot of them would, uh, that would have, h i v would do that. They would cut bleed and try to gas you with it, um, or dip, uh, darts in it and blow dart you to try to give you hep C or, or h i v or throwing food, you know, or semen, any kind of like,
or Oh yeah, Siemen's a big one. Yep, yep, yep. I've seen, I mean, I thank God there was gloss between me and, and, uh, the inmate numerous times because I can tell you on several occasions where, um, I've had inmates, um, masturbating and yeah, it's disgusting. It's, it's a whole being victimized again. But yeah. And it, and it, and it pisses you off, but is my retirement and my family worth that is the, is my, my quality of life worth
an inmate. They're there because they made, they made bad choices. Why am I going to not have control and make a bad choice that's going to affect my entire family and my future? And. Also making those choices make you no better than the person that you are make you know, that has pissed you off in the first place. Correct. Right. I mean, through life people are gonna piss you off. Sure. Really bad. Sometimes, sometimes they're,
they're gonna make you so mad that you wanna put your hands on them. For me, I would normally get in my car and drive home and cry because I was so mad that I needed to have some sort of physical release and I couldn't put my hands on someone. So I would go run, I would go work out or I would just cry. You. Were honored with the Medal of Valor? I was. Can you tell me about that? I'm not somebody who likes to have a lot of attention on myself.
I like being part of a lot of things that go on, but I don't like the spotlight necessarily on me so much. I would much more prefer it being on everybody else. It was sometimes I'm proud of, I had done c p r on, on two inmates in my career, and both of them, um, did not make it. I mean, they had life threatening wounds, but it still takes a toll on you psychologically. I was off work actually because I was in altercation with an inmate and had just had surgery on my wrist and
covid, you know, it shut everything down. And so my friend who's with me, Cindy says, let's go, you know, uh, mimosa house is open. Let's go and have some mimosas and breakfast. I'm like, okay, let's do this. I actually had my, I was kinda had my, my backside to them, i i the table and she's talking to me. And then the next thing I notice is she's like, um, something's going on over there. So I turn and I look at a table, she's like, Jenny, he's choking. And I'm like, oh my gosh.
And everyone is just watching. So I get up and I go and I'm like, you know, I'm Jen. I'm a peace officer. And I look at the guy, I'm like, can you breathe? And he shakes his head, no, 'cause he can't talk. And I said, you cannot get any air in. He's like shaking his head no. And you could see him laboring to try to get it out. And so I give him a couple breasts. I said, I'm gonna try to help you.
Is that okay? And he shakes his head, his meanwhile his wife, and he has a, like a, I wanna say he was probably like two years old, little two year old son. And his mom and his dad were there and they're all watching, oh, this is, this can't happen today. This cannot happen today. And so I pounded on his back a couple times and it didn't help. And so I told his dad, um, I said, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. And I went behind and I said, I'm gonna, I'm going to thrust really hard. Okay?
It's, it's gonna hurt. And I didn't probably, oh my gosh, three, four, I wanna say maybe even a little bit more. He was a, he was a pretty big guy. He was, he was bigger than me and I'm not small and I'm thrusting. And finally I just, I, his, his lips started turning blue. And you could tell that he was just from me holding him, like, not limp, but becoming weak. I finally am like, oh, Uhuh. And I gave it everything I had and a chunk of the size of like almost a golf ball.
It was pretty freaking big. Those flying out. And then, you know, all the neat things that happened after that, he ended up throwing up. And the poor guy, like, it was, it was just something that, you know, I just tapped. I'm like, are you okay? Do you need me to call for medical? And I, you know, just from training it, you know, said, you know, somebody called 9 1 1 and I don't think anybody did. And so I was just so caught up in like,
this is not happening in front of this kid's son. It's just not happening. So afterwards kind of had like an adrenaline dump, and then I actually had to excuse myself and go to the bathroom. I was shaking so bad. It was very scary hindsight. But during the actual event, um, I just didn't think anything about it. I like law enforcement. That's what we're trained. We, we go through so much that I don't think a lot of people understand that we go through so much training.
We see so many life altering events. We're in the middle of so many things where all we wanna do is make sure people breathe at the end of the day that they're with their families and that everybody's okay and they're safe. And it was pretty cool to know that least this guy was gonna have another day with his kid and his family. Then my husband had sent one of my lieutenants a message just saying, Hey, I'm not sure if Jen said anything, um, but this is what happened.
And he is like, uh, no, she didn't say anything. I'm like. Who gave you the commendation? Is that a government or is that, uh, your work? Who does that? C D C R. They, California Department of Corrections actually honored me for it, so. That's awesome. Well done. Did you do the Heimlich Maneuver? Is. That So people, like, I know a lot of times when they go through CPR training, sometimes people just don't take it super serious and first aid and CPR R
training, you never think you're gonna use it. We all think, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get this. I'm gonna get my little car. 'cause it's just another car that I have to do in order to do something else. My training is what allowed me to not think, but to do, I've worked with, you know, the Department of Corrections since 2002. Prior to that I was with the, uh, Sutter County Sheriff's Department from 98.
And then I went to the Sheriff's Academy in 96, 95, I started really on my adventure down this road of law enforcement. So since then, I have taken numerous every two years taking your C P R and first aid training. You still just don't think you're going to use it. What if today is the day that it finally is the day You gotta know this. It's when you least expect it. That day I expected to go have brunch and cocktails with my friend.
I always wonder how hard to do it. You know what I mean? When I think about it. Like if I had to do that for somebody, I've babysat little ones who've unfortunately shoved something down their throat and you have to reach down there and pull it out by hand. But for a grown human that you have to, I don't know if I would know how hard to do it. You do it with as much force as you think you can give. You pound the back, try to see if you can cough it up, you know, and you're burping a baby,
what happens? You pound their back and they burp. Right. Or puke or Right. . So you kind of start with that level with everything is always progressive. You don't start at the top and then down, but you always start at the bottom and try to work up. Well. And the adrenaline probably of coursing through you also probably did not hurt, I'm sure. Yeah. But I think what you said is so poignant. You said you, you learn it so that you don't think, you just do, you just,
you act in the moment. You don't, your brain doesn't go wait what? You just do it by natural instinct. Right. Wow. What a story. I'm sure that guy will never take giant bites of his food again. This world is so full up of terrible that we have to celebrate the good and we have to celebrate the good doers because if we don't, we will drown in the terrible. And I know there are more good doers than there are bad doers,
but the bad doers are really loud. Well, you're awesome, as I said before, and I really appreciate you sharing that story is very cool. You know, telling you about it. I'm like, oh my God, am I being conceited? Am I like. No, listen. I mean, there's a lot of things about telling the story and why it's important. One, again, it's great to shine the light on people who do good in the world. Two, it's badass. You got a Medal of Valor who can say that? Not very many people.
Three, it may say somebody's life, both from the, the, the idea that they learn c p r, they learn the Heimlich or they take some smaller bites or whatever it is. You don't, you don't know. Everything is a ripple effect. Every moment of our lives has a cause and effect. Right? And so somebody listening might go and renew their C P R or get C P R or take smaller bites. , what do you do now? Wait, you've retired. I have, I've been medically retired now for a little over a year.
I'm pretty active in, um, my children's, uh, baseball. So I am a, a board member with our, our little league doing sponsorships. I try to bring in as much money as I can. Um, with our nonprofit, it's the first time that they've ever had somebody bring in the kind of
resources that I've been able to master. We've been able to financially, uh, give back to our community and help out with children who may be less fortunate, or kids that have more than one sibling that, uh, join and being able to provide them with a scholarship to play ball for free. We give 'em a uniform, they need equipment, we help 'em with their equipment. Uh, each year we've been doing more, um, with our All Stars. Uh, normally the families have to pay, you know, for everything.
And we were able to really discount it this year. And then the league paid for a portion of it. I got kind of roped into being a manager of our, um, juniors team, which are, uh, 13 and 14 year old boys. Oh boy. . That's a lot. Yeah. But it's been great. They're a great bunch of kids and my thoughts are always like, if I have the energy, the time, if I have an ounce left in me, I wanna give back. Um, because I don't want kids.
I always feel like idle hands do the devil's work, especially with our inner city kids and just keeping them busy. I feel like if you keep them busy, there's less opportunity for bad things to happen to them. And it provides them choices, shows them a skill, shows 'em respect, shows 'em how they work as a team with their peers. It builds memories and relationships and it's sometimes the only safe environment some kids have. I played little League from the time I was eight until I was 14,
and then I played softball in high school. So it's been, it's been super rewarding. And then, so I also have, um, uh, small business where I, uh, do event planning, photography and floral arrangements for weddings and, you know, big to-dos and then do for photography. And then I plan a lot of those events and what have you. And that's hit, hit or miss. What's your company called? Um, moments Captured by Gin. I love it. It,
it's something that is so different from prison. Um, it allows me opportunity to be creative. So then I decided to go back to work part-time with elementary. I will tell you it, uh, I've only been doing it for a couple months. I started doing crossing guard at the, the school. I'm now doing the meal duty supervisor and, um, instructional assistant. Oh my gosh. The little kids. I just, I love them. Yeah. I assume too, with your background, you are able to catch, uh,
glimpses of kids that might be in trouble and step in and help. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I will tell you right from the get, there are children that I could tell you right now, if, you know, if it wasn't such a confidential situation where you could go and step in, um, I could literally, I guarantee you could point to several children and I'm pretty certain I'd be spot on. So what I do is I try to, um, just be present when I'm around them.
And these are things I've learned from these teachers. I will tell you, I have such a respect for teachers. I don't necessarily for their, um, association, but I absolutely do for the teachers that go out there. I see. Yeah, for sure. The tools they have and the things that they come up with and how quickly they do it. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, how does your brain work that quick? I, they're on. The front line. They're on, they're definitely, I don't know. It's,
it's such a humongous job. Uh, it is desperately unappreciated, unfortunately. By many. By many. I really appreciate that you took the time to, to speak with me and, and thank you. I just, I think you're a badass. Really. Aw, you're so sweet. Thanks. Yeah. You have to have some sort of strength in you in order to get through some other things. Yeah, for sure. Definitely, definitely, definitely.
So. People listening, I think that anyone listening, you know, who is going through some things, I hope that they hear your story and know that they can make it to the other side. I agree. I hope that if there's anything, um, that comes from this, first of all, thank you so much for the opportunity that is so kind for you to think that, um, my life has, um,
enough interest to maybe impact somebody. Then I, I, I have to give thanks to God because he is the only one that's got me through all of this and helped me show me the pathways that I needed to go to not give up on myself. And just letting people know that, you know, there's, there's, there's fight. If you just live real deep down inside of you, there's fight. And this life is worth living for no matter how deep and how desperate and how
dark it seems. If you just open your eyes, you will at some point see the light, but you have to change. Yeah, yeah. And hang on, hang on, hang. On, hang on. I love it. Hang on human. Hang on human, Jennifer, thank you. Thank you. You're awesome. You're. Awesome. Lemme know. Thank you for listening everybody. Bye. You take care. Bye-bye. Rate review and subscribe to Hey Human on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, bye.