Hey humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast. This. Is episode 371, and I had a conversation with US Army General Gary Mike Jones. General Mike Jones is a military legend.
Some of his career milestones include Commander Third Special Forces Group, airborne Deputy Commanding General United States Army Special Operations Command, deputy Director, central Intelligence Agency, counter-Terrorism Center, deputy Commander Combined Joint Task Force Mountain during Operation and during Freedom Afghanistan, commanding General Special Operations Europe and Commanding General US Army Special Forces Command. And the list goes on and on. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
He was very generous with his time and we had such an interesting conversation. I really appreciated everything he had to say. Obviously there are a lot of things that are secret, top secret he can't talk about, but he was really great about answering so much of of the questions I had. I wanna say a special thank you again for seven years of, Hey, human Podcast. Last week was my anniversary special, and my friend Trevor interviewed me for that, for you all.
And I really appreciate all the listens and the shares and all the good thoughts and good words. And, and thank you so much for that. And I hope you enjoyed that table turning episode where I get interviewed. I had a blast. I wanted to bring up a show I watched this week that I loved called Jury Duty. It's on Amazon, it's hilarious. It's about this regular guy, just, it's a very Truman show. So this guy answered an ad and he thought he was doing jury duty.
And this is not a spoiler. This is the premise of the show. And everyone around him is an actor, but he doesn't know it. And they go through the whole trial and at the end, you know, they let him know. But, whoa, it was so extraordinary to see this guy reacting to scenarios. He doesn't know that it's fake. It was so well done. It's very beautiful. It was funny. There's so much kindness. It was, it was really lovely to watch. And two books.
I just finished the Ocean at the End of the Lane by Neil Gaiman. I love Neil Gaiman. I've never read this book. It's so good. I loved it. And the other is Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin w Kemmerer. It's beautiful. I highly, highly, highly recommend that book as well. Check out, Hey, human podcast for links. And to learn more about my guests and the show, check out Susan ruth.com. To learn more about me and my other artistic endeavors,
follow Susan Ruth and hey, human podcast on social media. Find my albums, all my music on Spotify, apple Music, Amazon, wherever you get your music. Look for my album. All I ever wanted was everything. Look for my album. How to Say Goodbye, surfacing to Breathe. There's a few out there. Also, check out my relationships and sex show with sexologists and healthcare practitioner, Mara Edelman on YouTube under, are We There yet? Podcast show.
We're gonna slow down for the summer and they'll be coming out only once a month through the summer. But there's, I think, gosh, I think there's over 30 episodes maybe on there already. Lots of fun. Please rate reviews, subscribe to Hey, human Podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. And thank you for listening. Be well. Be safe, take care of each other, be love. And here we go, general Gary, Mike Jones. Welcome to Hey, human. Hey, that's great to be here with you.
And you prefer, you prefer Mike. Mike is my preferred name, correct. Okay. Well, Mike, it's a pleasure to have you here. Pleasure to be here. And you are a retired general in the Army. That's correct. Yeah. I retired from the Army in, uh, 2006. Yeah. Long service. 28 Years. Uh, you know, it, it, uh, it went faster than I thought it would, but you kind of come to a point and I guess your career when you know it's the right time for you to stay or leave once you recognize that you move on.
And really, to me it was more about family than it was anything else? I always wondered that about the military. I know that it's in blocks, right? When you sign up, you have a particular number of years that you serve. But then once you get past that, are you're allowed to just sort of stick around as long as you want? Or how's that work? We have two. You have commissioned officers and you have non-commissioned officers,
what we call the N C O and the Officer Corps. Mostly the officers, uh, once they come in the army, they're, they're in until either they are promoted out. When I say promoted out their service to the, I guess the nation or to the army is no longer needed. And they decide it's time for them to go home and do something else. Uh, their performance might have been great, but, uh, there's no other job that they really have that they can do based
upon their rank. Some officers don't do as well, and you know, their performance doesn't make them competitive for the next level. So they make a decision that it's not, you know, in their best interest to stay around. So, you know, most officers stay in, I would hope at least 20 years, but they lot stayed longer. Uh, some don't stay more than 10 years. But, uh, it's just a matter of personal choice really. I guess that's the great thing about a volunteer army.
Let's go back to the beginning of you. Where are you from originally? Where'd you grow up? I'm from Shreveport, Louisiana. Uh, that's where I grew up. After high school, I accepted a, uh, football scholarship at Louisiana State University, and then went to Louisiana State University and then spent four years there, graduated from there and then entered the Army on the 5th of August, 1977. Was your family a military family? No, no one at all was in the military. You know, I really never had real,
an intention of going to the army when I went to the military. I mean, when I went to, uh, college football was really my life. I loved football. It was what I liked to do. I was very competitive as a football player and, and did well. But I had a serious injury in my second year there. Uh, dislocated my knee and, uh, severed the pottail artery in the knee, which almost caused me to lose the leg. So went through a, uh,
rehabilitation process. It was pretty extensive, but continued to stay and play for the remaining years that I was there. However, my first year there, Vietnam draft was still on. And, uh, my coach, when I came up to me one day and said, come here son. And there was a newspaper article that held the draft notices on it, the numbers. And he looked at it and he pointed, he says,
that's your draft number right there. If you're in the RTC program, you're not gonna be drafted and you can stay and play football, but if you don't join the RTC program, you can be drafted. He says, now it's your personal choice. You do what you want to do. I said, well, gee cos that's, uh, Louisiana Math, I think I can figure that one out. So immediately went to the r o TC department and signed up.
Now I had no intention of staying there for four years and then taking a commission in the Army I was doing because the coach said, do you wanna play football young man? Uh, this is what you need to do. So I followed my coach's instruction,
but I grew to where I really liked the program and I liked the people in it. Uh, the first Green Beret that I ever really met and a one-on-one engagement was a, uh, R O t TC instructor named zike, major Arki, well, captain Zike at that time had just come out of Vietnam. And then there was a special force of Sergeant Major named Raki.
And both of those two were kind of my mentors while I was at the program at LS u, they, the ones that helped guide me and probably one of the reasons I joined Special Forces was because of those two guys. But anyway, that, that's kind of how it got started. Was it, as a young man looking at the future, being in R O T C, which for those that don't understand, uh, that's, uh, that's the officer training program, uh. Officer training corps.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So knowing that the Vietnam War was going on and what the potentiality of that for you meant, was there fear around that at all? Or was it simply, I'm gonna play football that's that I probably won't ever see a battlefield? Well, but, you know, I had no intention of staying in the R TC program. I mean, honestly, I thought, well, when Vietnam War is over with,
I'll get outta R O T C. I don't have to worry about that anymore. But, um, I hurt my knee and I started to reconsider what my options were going to be. And I said, well, you're probably not gonna play pro football after this cuz you're not gonna have the same speed you had, uh, same agility,
but the R O T C program looks good. And I remember Art Zike, major Zike telling me one day, he said, you know, Mike, one of the things you really need to think about is your retirement that the military will provide for you and the medical care that they will provide for you after you leave the service. And if you want to continue your education, there are programs in the Army that will allow you to continue your education. And to me, that was very, very attractive.
That wasn't the prime reason I did it, but it was a, a huge part of why I continued to stay in that program. There was also the one convenient piece that when you were a junior, you became an advanced student in the R T C program and they paid you a hundred dollars a month. So for me as a young student, that was wonderful. However, you know, the commitment is after that when you graduate, you have to decide to take a regular Army Commission are a reserve commission.
And the regular Army commissions were hard to get. Most of the guys outta West Point got the regular Army commissions. And then if you did well in your O T C program, were distinguished military graduate, you would be offered a regular Army commission. And I was fortunate enough to be a A D M G distinguished military graduate and received a regular Army commission. So I took it.
Do you have recollections of, especially during the Vietnam era, recollections of people around you, friends, even family, that were thinking, what are you doing? Because I remember reading about the sentiments against. Oh yeah. Military at the time. Lot of protests on campus. Uh, there were specific segments that tried to recruit us, you know, to not stay in r o tc, but be part of the anti-war movement. And then, you know, of course we had, we were young, young men, young kids.
You had your other friend that would make fun of him because you wear a uniform. You, you know, I had a good friend who was, who was my lifelong friend, and we, we still, uh, correspond and talk just about once a month as Dr. Mike Leonard. We both played high school football together and then went to college together
and played. And he, he was a little bit of a rabble rouser, but he would hide outside of the bushes in the morning early when I had to go to the rot O T C department, I had to wear my uniform. He'd jump out of the bushes and salute me and, you know, just gimme a, a little bit of, you know, uh, I guess you would say poking at or, or cajoling. It was all in good fun. And we loved each other very much, so it really didn't matter. But it's just always remember that.
But he wasn't one of those that, uh, was anti army. It's just, it was, was a, it was a way that friends could kind of pick at each other. So anyway, that was, that was the only time, only, only thing I ever remember. I think people can be anti-war and pro-military at the same time.
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, some people look at the people and not necessarily the organization, and they're able to separate the organization from the people once they know the people, they recognize who they are, what their heart's about, what their mind's about what they believe or don't believe in. And it's easier for them to warm up to you than we had a lot of cases like that. I mean, there's one guy that continued to try to recruit me. Uh,
of course I didn't agree with him. He didn't agree with me, but we'd sit down and have coffee. We became, I guess you would say cordial friends. I respected him for his position on the, on the, on the war. And he respected me on my position to serve the nation. Wasn't necessarily about going to Vietnam, it was about serving the nation. What does that mean to you? Serving the nation means everything to me.
I think it's what gives us our national identity as a nation. You know, if you're willing to serve the nation, you're serving something greater than yourself, which is extremely important. It's a concept that I wish we could really get back to with some of our youth. Uh, I believe that it would also be something I think would help us as a nation in making decisions. And the reason I say that is,
is that our congressmen and senators, their children don't all serve. Therefore, that's easy for them to make decisions about sending young men to war if it doesn't affect them directly. Now, as a politician, of course, they'll always say, oh, yes, it affects us directly. We care about all constituents. But I think it, it hits home a little bit more when their son or daughter could be, uh, placed in the same position of other young men and women in the nation that have
elected to serve. So when all are part of this decision, I think it creates a unity within the nation that's a little bit different from what we have right now. When you look at the service, what you find is probably less than 1% of the population is than the military. And through time you can create this unique culture that doesn't necessarily fit in to the nation probably the way it should.
And the reason I say that is, is what you will find is military families will start having children and their children serving in the, in the military. And it becomes so myopic that you don't have that exposure and connection to your American culture and all of those people who don't serve.
So, you know, you're in the army thinking you're doing something very noble for the nation, but you can also adopt this view that we are special and we're the only ones that are given to the nation like we should, which is not necessarily the truth. So, you know, there's a little bit on both sides there as to why it's important to serve the
nation at large. Now, I don't care who, what it is you serve, whether it's Peace Corps, the State Department medical outreach programs, but something from a national perspective that is sponsored by the nation to help others or to serve someone other than yourself. That's why I think national service and this issue is extremely important.
Do you think we should reinstitute not necessarily the draft itself, but an idea of that where I I personally feel like if Americans had, uh, a set number of couple years when they hit 18, that where they do serve their community or the nation in some capacity, we would see a stronger, more fortified humanity within each other because it, it would put people in positions, as you pointed out, they've never seen Habitat for Humanity. People will see,
oh, there's people that don't even have homesteads. There are, you know, a soup kitchen that's service things. But. The, the idea has to be something that's greater than oneself has to be to serve others. I mean, that's the problem. You know, we we're all serving ourselves and you really have to create this heart of serving others. I mean, I think that every 18 year old in the United States should serve as nation for a
minimum of two years. I don't care what field it's in, if it's, it's working as an E M T, if it's working as a police officer, if it's working for the Peace Corps, if it's working for Habitat for Humanity, whatever that might be, our military. And you have to make a choice, but you're gonna do it. And because of that, we put people together that normally would not even talk, and they're forced as a team and an organization to do something together to
achieve an outcome that is greater than oneself. So that, that's very important. Now, I, for me, you know, that came through sports. I mean, you know, sports made us, no matter where we came from, no matter what color, creed, what community, it didn't really matter when you went out on that football field, you all had to pull together to win. And it made you recognize that all men, as we stay in our constitution, are created equal endowed by the creator with certain inalienable rights.
And because of that, you can really understand it, even in a, you know, a concept of a sport. But I think we also need to do that for those who don't experience that through some type of national service. I mean, we've got a great nation, we've got great people. The challenge that I think we have today is we've created these ch chasms, you know, between ideologies where we just don't talk anymore and we have no position of compromise.
And we should always have some form of compromise that allows us to achieve something that helps all achieve what is necessary in the best interest of the nation. Yeah, it's hard not to see where we are now and think that there wasn't sort of a hand guiding that, that that schism in some way or another. But, but I know that's conspiracy theory, but it's also, it seems like what a, what better way to bring down a nation than to make it eat itself?
Well, I mean, you know, many historians and many, uh, ideologues throughout history have basically stated that that is, uh, that's the one thing that will destroy America. I mean, Stalin said, you know, it's not about us defeating the United States with a force of arms. They will destroy themselves at their own will. And, you know, it's, there's a lot to that. But I think it all goes back to this issue of understanding
that it's not about you, it's about a nation. It's about a, it's about a national goal. It's about achieving what's in the best interest of all citizens and doing that without you being first. And if you can put yourself in that position and do that, I, I think the rewards are greater in life than you could ever imagine. I mean, you'll meet people you never knew. I mean, people that you would never even consider to be your friends.
It'll be your lifelong friends because of those types of experience. Or sometimes it's arduous, sometimes it's challenging. A lot of times it's uncomfortable. But through that comes great growth in humans. We have reached a very interesting point in society where folks, curiosity seemed to be at an all time low and also critical thinking. And also, as you said, the idea of of getting out and meeting people different than oneself, the tribalism is at an all time high.
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I, I really believe that. But I do believe a lot of it is cause of, uh, the technology. You know, now we have more information available to us than we've ever had in our lives that are on the tips of our fingers.
But the challenge is in many ways is if you're not a critical thinker, you know, you take that information based upon its, its face value and you run with it where really what you should be doing is examining many different forms of the information that you're looking at to verify for yourself or whomever other you might purport this position to be that it is accurate. Okay. And if it's not accurate, then you need to,
you need to accept that. However, you know, we find people that no longer, I think, uh, focus on the value of what I consider truth, which is truth and information, and are more inclined to accept ideologies and, and, and trade truth for ideology, uh, versus, you know, accept the ideology just for what it is. Yeah. It's my understanding that the military is supposed to be apolitical.
They're not supposed to get involved in politics in any way, shape or form, in order to be a perfect working entity in and of itself without any kind of influence by who, for example, is in the White House or in the Senate, or, and we are seeing this huge influence by politic. And next to that, the whispering of a religious impact. Mm-hmm. . And how do you see that going, moving forward? Obviously right now, some of the military is being held a bit captive by some political
doings. How do we get away from that? How do we fix that? Well, first of all, there was a Marine Corps general in named Lac about maybe 30 years ago, wrote an article about, um, what happened to the Roman legions, uh, during the Roman Empire. And it was about 48 BC when the gospel of bi Theas attacked Rome and defeated the Roman army. And he said, it started many years before that with politicization of the military.
And it started with what was called the p pretorian guard. Now, I don't know if you know what the Pretorian guard was a pretorian guard, uh, the movie Gladiator. You see these men who wear these purple, uh, togas and Roman uniforms, and they protect the Caesar. Before that, the Roman Legion, every morning they would go through and inspect the Roman Legion, the Centurion who took care of a group of about a hundred men. He was like the non-commissioned officer.
And he would inspect them every morning. And they had a blood breastplate called a Sirus. And you could tell that the Sirus was being well-maintained by the sound when you strike the Cirrus. So every morning they would go by and they would salute and say Veritas. And it really was referring to, uh, the unity of the unit as a whole. And as if one of those breast plates was off, Centurion would say, well, you're not taking care of your breast plate. He'd be punished.
But the importance of that was that all of those seriouses needed to be maintained so they could maintain the, the shield that was required when under attack and protect himself, so that if one guy fell, it would cause us weakness in the, in the unit. So they had to keep those things well-maintained. Well, that was because the focus was on the unit, the organization as a whole. It wasn't about the one individual.
And later they started to take officers out of the, uh, Legion and they had them protect the Caesar. And the motto of the Pretorian guard was Hell, Caesar. So the focus went from a unit's wellness and wholeness to that of being allegiant to one individual, to one person,
which started to change the way the Roman Legion operated. And so, as these officers did their tours or time with the Caesars and they went back into the Legion, they were more focused on the politics of supporting the Caesar and not maintaining the wellness of the organization. And through time they didn't train as well, they didn't practice as much, they didn't maintain their equipment as well. And it started to destroy the legion.
They wouldn't give good sound military advice to their leaders. They just started to rot from the inside because of this politicization. I believe that in many ways, we need to look at our military today and, and ask ourselves, is this a challenge? We have this requirement for officers to be successful by going and serving in Washington DC and it's necessary that we understand how
Washington works. Uh, because you can't compete as a large service like the Army, Navy, air Force Marines, unless you understand the budget cycles and how to get money and how to maintain that money to, to, uh, do research and development and product and procurement and create things that protect your soldiers or your Navy or your air force and make us a lethal
fighting force. I mean, there's one, there's one job that, that d o d has only one job that's to fight and win the nation's wars, period. It's not about going and being a politician in Washington DC and it's not about staying up there for 4, 5, 10 years. It's about how do we ensure that our army, navy, air force and marines our home to the best skill possible to fight and win the nation's wars have called upon to do. So,
that's, that's what they exist for. Nothing else. Now, you know, some of us would think that this diversity inclusion, d e i, I believe was the term diversity, equity, and inclusion was their focus. And a lot of that's been going on now, but that's not the focus. And when we lose sight of that focus, we kind of find ourselves in the same position of the Roman Legion when the
Roman Legion fell. So we need to, we need to pay attention to that. I mean, you know, these officers that serve in Washington DC they should probably only be up there one or two years and get back out to these units. So they're with these young soldiers every day to see what their challenges in life are and how to train them to do what it is they do. The closer they are to these soldiers every day, the more focused they are on ensuring that they're prepared to do their job.
Because it's their responsibility to make sure that these young sons and daughters of America come home alive if called up on to do so. And that's, that's, that's their number one fight and win the war and make sure the sons and daughters of America come home alive. That's their job. How does one try to protect the military forces from being influenced? And I'm not talking about generals, maybe some generals,
the, the quote, everyday boots on the ground type. What, if any precautionary measures are made to make sure they aren't indoctrinated and to seeing their service as not being of a nation, but maybe of little pockets of a nation. A leader responsibility to ensure that he, he advises his soldiers from what's, what their job is and what it is they're really there to do. I mean, you'll find, it's interesting. I, I noticed this from my career to the career.
I've seen these young men and I saw it's creeping in as I, I got older, but I remember as a young man being a captain for like 13 years, you know, some of these guys are not captains for more than four years now, but it was 13 years. And I didn't know anything about being a captain, but I loved it. I thought it was the greatest job in the world. I mean, I just, I couldn't imagine being anything else. I was so happy doing what I was doing.
I knew my skill. Well, I could train soldiers. Well, I mean, I could get out in the field cause I was physically fit enough to do everything that needed to be done. And one day some guy called me and said, Hey, do you have one of those saucer caps with the scrambled eggs on top? I go, no, I don't even know what that is. He goes, well, you need to go get one cuz you're getting ready to get promoted to major.
Now today a young kid understands how to track his career from the time he was a lieutenant to a first lieutenant, to a captain, to a major, to a lieutenant car. He knows all the jobs he needs to have. We didn't do that when I was in the army. Our leaders decided who was gonna get promoted based on the way you could perform the functions that they gave you to perform. And were you technically and tactically competent in doing what it is they asked
you to do? And, you know, were you a team? You know, did you understand how to team build? Did you understand how to lead? Did you put yourself in adversity like the others did? Did you ensure that the things that you asked them to do, there was nothing that you wouldn't do that you were asking them to do. And oh, by the way, did you always lead from the front on those types of issues so that your soldiers saw it and they understood that you were in this with them together?
Now, I never even thought about getting promoted. I mean, it just happened. And that happened for many, many years until I got older. And then people were kind of going, golly, you see all these young men, they're, you know, they're, they want to get counseled on how to make sure they understand how to get promoted to this level here instead of worrying about the job that they are in and doing the best that they could at that,
ensuring they delivered the best service to their soldiers. And where they were, they were extremely competent in what they were being required to do at their level. Don't worry about this guy above you and how you gonna do his job or the guy's next job. That's not your focus. Your focus is where you are right now.
And I saw that changing a lot. I really did. And it's, it's difficult to protect, but good leaders will call their people in and talk to 'em every quarter, every month about their performance. What it is you like about what they do, what it is you don't like about what they do and what they should do to improve, to be a better soldier in their art. And if you're not doing that,
then that's where you're letting the system down. I mean, I had a thing called pa Pairwise comparison that I had a file on every officer in my organization and every nco and every time I had a contact with him, I'd make a note about that contact. And every quarter I would call 'em in each one of 'em and spend maybe an hour with them. And I'd go through everything that I had in there. They ran into you the other day, you know, you hadn't shaved in the morning, you looked sloppy, you know,
ran into you five days later and you looked like you'd shaved 15 times. I mean, you know, things that not just highlighted those things they were doing negatively, but ensuring that they understood. They made the corrections, you know, they were, they were, they were doing better, their soldiers were looking better. I mean, those types of things. You see all of that. And you run into, you know, ethical dilemmas and, and moral dilemmas with some people in many times.
And you have to ensure that they understand that those things, either, either right or wrong. So, you know, being a soldier is, uh, is something that you really have to consider the moral aspects of everything that you do. Cause once you're out there on the battlefield, there's not a lot of people looking. And little organizations can go awry real quick based upon the conditions that they're in. I mean, I remember listening to a presentation from some, seeing some NCOs after Afghanistan.
We'd been there for at least I'd say 1, 2, 3, 4, about four years. And I would always go down and talk to 'em about their experience and see how they were doing and kind of give 'em a little head check. But we were talking about, um, loyalty and integrity. And the dilemma that was posed was that you're in the field and you're fighting and you've lost three guys on your team that were killed. You were close friends with him, and all of a sudden you captured this guy that,
you know, was responsible for their deaths. What do you do? Okay, right? You gonna treat him as a prisoner of war in accordance with the, the the laws of land warfare. How you gonna treat 'em? You know, one guy goes, well, I'll tell you what, sir, we just take around and deal with them. I said, what do you mean deal with them? He goes, well, we're just gonna deal with 'em. You know, sir, we're all, we've all been through this, you know,
we know what's going on out there. We don't take care of them. They're gonna take care of us. I go, really? Is that, is that the way you look at it? And he goes, well, that's loyalty. We're gonna be loyal to each other. I said, what if the criminal investigation command comes down after this is over with and asks you what happened? And you know, one of you gets says, well, we, we shot him and killed him in cold blood. And the others are going, oh,
we didn't do that. No, that's imp we didn't do that. I said, well, this will all see the light of day. I said, so on your team, this concept of loyalty is, uh, a misgiving. I said, what you should be focused on is your integrity. And a rule you should always think about is, is when somebody's appealing to your loyalty, they're probably asking you to do something wrong. When they appeal to your integrity, they're asking you to do something right.
And your integrity tells you that you know that this is not right and you can't do this. But if you step across that line and protect of this and are a part of it, you're a criminal like any other criminal, and no one can help you. At that point. I said, so you need to remember this rule. If they're appealing to your loyalty, they're probably asking you to do something wrong. If they're appealing to your integrity,
they're asking you to do something right. You know, you could have heard a pin drop in there. And all of a sudden this NCO came up to me afterwards. He goes, you're absolutely right, sir. We never stepped across the line on that. But we came close to it. And he says, I'll ensure that I'll have never let that happen in my tour in the military. I said, what's that's good on you, son? I said, because if you ever do that, you know, you, you're gonna have to pay the price for it.
Cause you're a criminal if you do. And that's the one thing that separates us is the United States military and many places that we go, you know, we believe in the rules of, of law, of land warfare. And we believe it's important that you cannot step across the line and violate that. And there are others that do, other nations that do that. Russians have, I'm sure, and as Ukrainian issue, and I'm sure some of the Ukrainians had too, but we can't let that happen.
And I'm sure there were some conditions in Vietnam when that happened, and I heard stories about it. I wasn't there. So I don't know. But you know what, you're gonna be there one day and you'll have your opportunity to do the right thing. So the young man have to understand that. And I think that that's where leadership is important, making sure that they understand these ethical values and how they are
important. And they cannot be violated if you're in, if you're reinforcing these things with them all the time. That's the one way that you keep your force on the right azimuth. And that azimuth is a moral asthma. So, you know, that's, that's kind of my look at it.
It's also complicated because when situations do come to light, as they often do, uh, for example, like in Iraq, it then shines this negative light on the entirety of the forces because four or five people do heinous acts, then therefore all of the military operates like them. What? It's not like that, of course, but that's what people then extrapolate from what they're learning. They don't know any better. What would you expect them to know to, I mean sure.
Look, they're just know. They, they think, whoa, that's the military. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's what they do. Oh, no, it's not. I mean, you know, a leader's responsibility is to ensure that the moral asthma is, that's kept straight in everything that you do under all conditions. How do you prepare?
I'm sure you've had to have these conversations as you've gone up through the ranks that how do you prepare someone to do the, to do the duty of where they will likely be in a, a situation where they have to take another person's life, which of course goes against all the stuff they've been taught up until then. Well, every soldier has the right self-defense on the battlefield. I mean,
he understands what we call the rules of engagement. You know, if you're in a fire base and the enemy attacks the fire base, you have to defend yourself. So, you know, you either, you either fight or die. I mean, that's kind of, that's kind of what happens. So you're placed in this position where you're gonna have to respond whether you want to or not. But the other thing I guess that is very important is, is this thing about, you know, the, the, uh, chemistry of organizations.
You know, when you live together and you're in positions where you're gonna die together, then it takes on a completely different dimension. You know, you will see people rise to the occasion that you would never expected. That will do heroic things that just astound people. And a lot of it's because of, of the, the, the love that's been created with these people. I dunno how to explain it, you know, the way, but that, I mean, they just have grown the way they love each other.
Family. Yeah. Because of that love and that family, you know, they, they defend each other, I mean, unto the death. And so that's kind of, that's the way it happens. I mean, that's, that's just the way it is now. Nobody takes any great pride in any of that. I can tell you that right now. I don't think any of these kids really want to go to war. It's a romantic, uh, fantasy that some people have that's just misplaced. And anybody that's there who's ever seen it,
doesn't want anything to do with it. Again, I think it all starts with a soldier's training, what you teach them from day one about how to be a soldier and what's expected of them, and how you expect 'em to be a part of the army or the Navy Air Force Marines, that applies to all.
What are your thoughts around when folks go home, when they've served their tours and their duties and they're left a, being an adrenaline junkie in some cases after everything they've experienced, and b being separated from, as you put it, that that unit, that bond that I don't think other people can quite grasp.
That's a whole other level of bonding when you're in a live or die situation and all the things that happen when you take them out of that scenario and put them back into the quote unquote real world. What are your thoughts around that and, and the care for people? Cause I know there's a lot of pre-care getting them prepared to go into those situations, but then the deconstruction of it all after the fact.
I think that, uh, well, first of all, I'd like to say that, uh, the military's done a very good job over the last, I'd say 20 years, I guess you would say. Constructing a system that is very supportive of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, much more so than Vietnam or World War II or World War I, I mean, you know, if you historically go back and look at it, you can, you can almost really, uh, correlate the, uh, results that have occurred based upon the government's care for their soldiers
when they come back from combat. You look at World War I, and the trauma was incredible in that war, but those kids that came back, or the people that came back, a lot of 'em were the results of the roaring twenties. There were no jobs. Uh, they had skills that, you know, can't be applied anywhere else other than potentially in criminal enterprise. Right? Pushed a lot of them into that, where they could use those skills.
And because of that, you had challenges. Uh, you had people that were homeless and, you know, just in bad conditions because they had no systems to help them. I think in World War ii, they improved that somewhat. Vietnam wasn't as good, Korea wasn't as good, and I'm not really sure we understood what was going on with some of these soldiers. We didn't understand post-traumatic stress like we do, or T b i,
like we do today. So I think our, our system is designed to better help the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines recover from these challenges that are faced from combat trauma. And everybody that has been in combat has some form of trauma. I don't care what they say. All right, everybody's got some form of P T S D or some behavioral change to their normal activities, uh, because of these events.
And I think that we've helped our soldiers, at least from what I've seen, understand that it's not bad to understand that you have this type of trauma and to bring it to someone's attention to help you if you need to get through it. Uh, I think though, there were some times when there was a heavy medication being pro given to some of these kids that wasn't good. You know, a chemical solution was the problem.
And then because of that, other programs were developed in the civil community, which helped them beyond a pharmaceutical solution. You know, whether they were horse ranches or, you know, recovery centers or things that help them, you know, bridge this trauma they had and kind of get back to normalcy. But we're not o not not that, not as successful as we would tell ourselves to be. Although we had programs in place, we got incredible amounts of suicides, uh,
from soldiers. I mean, they were just, I, I don't even think the public understands, you know, one time we were losing like 60 to a hundred kids a day, I mean, from suicide, and of course that's gone down significantly. But still, the point is, is that these events are, are traumatic and it's, it's, it's hard to manage 'em all. I think, I mean, it's difficult. You know, again, this kind of goes back to when I look at these politicians that can easily
decide, we're gonna go do these things. But the second, third, and fourth order effects that are after this, the cost of the war is not just the bullets and the beans, alright? And transportation and materials and recovery materials. It's that third and fourth order effect that occurs years after veterans return and all of the things we have to do to take care of that. So the costs are enormous. I just don't think that politicians really understand the true cost of the
decisions that they make. I mean, if it was up to me, it wouldn't be fighting in any wars. Okay. Some are, you have no choice. But in many cases, you know, we, we go just about everywhere to help everybody do everything. I think we need to pay attention to that. Yeah. What does it mean to be a general, what is, uh, what is the activities of a general entail? Well, first of all, I think we have too many generals.
That's the first thing I tell you at large. And the reason I say that is, is I've seen the number of generals proliferated, like nothing I've ever seen. And to me, it has an impact on decision making at lower levels. Uh, lieutenant colonels and colonels, when I was growing up, captains majors, Lieutenant colonels made decisions that some of these generals are making today. But cause of the risk quotient, these things get pushed up so that they don't have to make the decisions.
And they know that these guys will have to make the decisions, and they're making the decisions, which are really, decisions could be made at these levels. So more generals, you have the, you know, your challenges to, to young leaders making risk decisions changes significantly. The quotient changes significantly. So being a general, being a general is like being a brand new private in the army at a different level. Yeah, I mean, when you become brigadier general, you ,
you know, the lowest general that there is. And of course, there's a lot of jobs for those good brigadier that the other guys don't want to do. So we end up doing a lot of the, a lot of the heavy lifting as brigadier and major generals. The other guys, you know, one of the things that people don't understand is brigadier and major generals, major generals is the last competitive rank in the Army. Lieutenant General and General are positions that are nominated
before Congress. So to receive those positions, your nomination has to make it through Congress before you can have the position. So they're not necessarily, uh, positions that are decided upon by a board of officers like you do for a major general and a brigadier general. But that seems screwed up. That's just the whole point. It's like keeping politics out of the military. And yet that's the final level.
Well, that's kind of the way it works. Now, I don't, I can't blame that completely on politicians because the military decides who those nominees are, and the Congress gets to decide whether or not they agree those guys are the right guys. Uh, I don't necessarily agree that Congress should do that, but that's, that's the way the system's set up. I think if they'd leave it to the military, they'd make good decisions and they'd pick the right people to do the jobs that
need to be done. I mean, they know the people better than the Cong congressman do, but you know, anybody today can make a complaint against somebody to Congress and his nomination get held up and doesn't get promoted. And, you know, he's done, he's done for his career. So it's, it's, it's kinda screwy, but it is the system that we live in.
Hmm. So what do you do as a retired person now? What is your, it's the thing that makes you happy and how two questions, not happy that, and also how do you deal with the, everything that you've seen over the course of your career? Uh, well, first of all, the thing that I enjoy doing the most, spending time with my wife and my grandkids, uh, spending my time with my wife, who's my best friend. And, uh, I love dearly. I'm, I'm just blessed beyond measure.
Having just had a wonderful wife the last 37 years that, uh, helped me raise my kids. And I can think of nothing I'd rather do than spend time with her. So that's number one thing. Uh, my grandkids, which I, I love to be around, they're great. We've got three beautiful grandchildren. Just had one here yesterday that just came in from New Jersey and spent a couple
of days with us. Uh, my other two grandchildren live here and I see them, I see one of my grandkids every weekend, the other one about every other weekend. So we try to get together as much as possible. And then my dogs, other than that, you know, if I can do my exercise and spend time with my wife just enjoying life now, that's, that's all I care to do. How'd you meet Your wife? Just happened to be one of those times, you know, when you,
you ask yourself a question, am I gonna go out tonight or not? You know? And I decided one night I was gonna go out and I went to a restaurant and uh, you know, I'm just telling it like it is. I walked through the door and I saw her and I said, wow, that's her right there. . So that's where it happened. Oh, we worked with each other and, uh, we've been together ever since. What's the secret to a long marriage?
Oh, well, you know, it's, it's work. I mean, marriage is work. I mean, I'm not saying it's bad work, I'm just saying that you have to work together to make marriage successful. I think someone, I heard this, someone say this a long time ago, you know, never go to bed without telling your wife you love her and resolve any issues that you might have before you go to bed. You know, it's kind of one of the things that's one of our rules. We're churchgoers.
So we know we participated in church together since we've been married. Married, uh, she's a great singer and a great, uh, pianist. And we've enjoyed, you know, our worship together and living our lives growing through that. Uh, God has played a significant part in our life. We're Christians, so that's one thing. We're talented of others though. So we're not,
we're not ones that condemn others for their beliefs. We just, we believe that through our examples of life to others, makes what we believe acceptable to them as we believe what they believe is acceptable to us and them. Anyway. So that's kind of one of the, one of the things that's, uh, prime motivator for us. And then we believe in giving to others. When I say that I believe, you know, tithing is something that we do, but the tithing is focused for us and our family.
10% of our income goes towards tithing every month, and that's focused on helping those who need help. I mean, actually, I get more joy out of that than probably anything. Giving to me is, is one of the aspects of life that's not appreciated as much as I think it should be. I get more outta giving than anything I could ever get. I'd rather not get anything and give and not get anything, period. I get more outta that than anything in life. It keeps you, it keeps the world's,
it keeps you from centering too much on oneself. I think it, yeah, when you see the world as, again, it's a being of service. When you're of service to the world, you don't have as much time to focus on your own stuff, keeps you outta your head. But it helps you recognize how fortunate you are and you know, how you should give to others because they're not as fortunate. And cuz they're not as fortunate doesn't make 'em any, uh, less of a human being. It's just important for us to recognize that.
I think if we would give more and we would be more tolerant to understanding of other people's dilemmas and, you know, show a little bit more compassion to 'em, that we'd probably be better off as a nation period. And to me, that comes through the, uh, for us Christian principles. Christ consciousness, I like to call that. And you don't have to be a Christian to facilitate Christ consciousness. No, you don't. Yeah. It's a, it's a way of being where your heart sees the world as worthy of love.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And to the other question, how have you, over the course of your life dealt with all the things that you've seen? Because I know that you can't talk about stuff with me certainly because you've been on some pretty intense things that are none of anybody's business . But that being said, how do you, how have you processed all of that as you've grown into yourself? Well, first of all, I'm not a complainer. That's rule number one.
I don't complain about anything. I don't care how bad it is. I don't complain about it because there's always somebody that's all wor worse
off than you are. That's, that's number one. But I believe that, um, you know, anything that happens, no matter how bad it is, you can turn it into something good and gracious if you just try, you know, if your attitude is every morning when you get up in the morning, it's gonna be the greatest day of, of your life and whatever you do, anytime I have a rule, when I'm around people, uh, and someone starts talking negative to me about someone else or some
condition, if I can't change the conversation in a minute to two minutes, I'll walk away from it. And the only reason I say that is I, I'm not a i I don't like to be around people that are negative energy. I just think it really brings people down. And I believe that no matter what happens to you in life, no matter how disadvantaged you might think you are or other people tell you are you're not. And if you allow that to take root in your soul,
it's gonna affect you for the rest of your life. So everything you're doing, you will work, work hard at it and know that you are going to be successful. You are going to be successful. But if you embrace the negative energy of, of, of victimhood or, or, you know, I'm, I should have this because this is where who I am and what's happened to me. Listen, a lot of bad things happen to people in life. Again, it, it goes back to what do you do with it when it happens?
Are you gonna take it and turn it around or, yes. Uh, Denzel Washington says, you know, when you fall, fall forward, don't fall backwards and get up and keep falling forward. And if you do that in life, you're gonna be okay. And I believe that. So I don't, all these things that have happened, they happen to me or others tenfold to what I've experienced. So I'm not gonna focus on that. What I'm gonna focus on is how do I make things better for everybody else?
I mean, if, if, if you can help someone somewhere every day in one way, shape or form, you're gonna make the world a better place. It's just that simple. And if you embrace anything else in that, other than that, it just doesn't work for me. . You're, you're lucky because I think a lot of people between depression or P ts d or whatever they're dealing with in their life, it's very hard to see past that. And it's my experience that people will clinging to the past and the worst because they
understand it. They know it. It's, it's weirdly comforting that even the worst thing can feel familiar and comforting more than the the terror of moving forward. And the good thing that might be coming, cuz they don't, you know, if I don't know what that is, and even if it's the best thing in the world, it's scary to take that first step toward that thing because all I've known is this other terrible thing.
Yeah. I'll tell you, I really feel for, for people who are, um, depressed or have, uh, or commit suicide, you know what I remember, you know, theologically listening to the recepts of what, uh, people believed in different sections of Christianity about suicide used to bother me when I, you know, if you, if you commit suicide, you're going to, your souls going to hell. And I would hear that and I'd say, wow, man, you know,
I just, just, I don't, I don't get that. I mean, it just doesn't work for me. And so my greatest compassion for those that ha have gone through this and have died or haven't died and still have this depression, because to me there's a, there's a chemical imbalance somewhere in that body or in the mind that is putting them in a position to where they are, where they are. I mean, like a, like depression or, or suicide, you know, it takes a brave person to commit suicide. I can never do it.
I'm too big of a chicken. Okay. I just couldn't do it. But when you recognize that and you see what they've done, you just go, my God, I mean, it had to be so bad that it put 'em in that position to do that. So to me it's, it's a, it's a heartbreaking thing for me to, to see people who commit suicide in their families or those who are in deep depression because there's something physically wrong with them
that's not corrected or that's gone wrong. And, you know, the best thing to do, at least for me when I come in contact with people like this, is just try to load 'em. I mean, just, you know, encourage 'em or do whatever you can to help 'em get through it. Now, I, I have no expertise in any of that. All I know is that the way I look at the way I do what I do and hope that it's successful and just staying focused on positive. I mean,
I've had bad times too. Like others have, there's a lot of bad things that happened me in my life, but I'm not looking back at that stuff. I'm just, I'm moving forward and embracing that for me has been very helpful. And I can, there's not a thing I can't do. I really believe that. Yeah, it must be hard to be in a leadership position in, uh, in a thing like the military when, I mean, look, there are mistakes made in any career, in any place,
by any person at any given time. That's just the facts. And I do think that the military, there's an expectation that somehow it has to be infallible, but that's just not realistic. And, and it falls upon the leadership, of course, to bear the brunt of that. Well, you know, that's, that, that's the, that's the part of leadership that's tough. But that's part of leadership that you accept when you become a leader.
Leadership, it's lonely at the top, trust me. I mean, you know, it's, uh, you don't have anybody else to talk to, but you have to understand that, you know, you're sharing your misgivings or complaining to those below, you only aggravates the conditions that they have to deal with. So a lot of times you have to absorb that and hang onto it and deal with it yourself, and it becomes lonely. And it can make you feel like you're on an island. Sometimes you gotta work your way through it. I mean,
you just can't let it take charge. Because if you do, everything you do as a leader affects everybody below you. I mean, I can remember when the war first started, we were losing, sold a lot of soldiers, and I had to bury 'em. I mean, I buried probably 35 or 40 soldiers in my time as a commander. And I personally went to every one of their funerals, and I gave the flag to the families, and it took a piece in my heart every time. It was probably the most difficult thing I'd ever done.
But the thing I couldn't do for the soldiers that were in the field when they embraced this was to, uh, embrace it with them. I couldn't embrace it with them the way they wanted me to, because, you know, you gotta keep them focused because it's a detriment to them if they fallen into this pity trap. Because if they do that and they, and they get depressed, then it's gonna affect every other soldier around 'em the decisions that they're making.
So you gotta keep 'em focused on moving forward and doing what they're doing. Because if you don't, it could, it could be catastrophic. Mm. I mean, I remember one of my young colonels called me in the field, and he just lost one of the soldiers and was the middle of the night. He was really upset about it. And, uh, you know, he was rationalizing his mind what the kid could have done different and how they could have run the operation different. I just told him, stop. I said,
look, I said, you gotta get ahold of yourself here. I said, here's the thing. I said, this is gonna happen again. It's not gonna be the only one. I said, this is a deadly business we're in. I said, but they have to look to you for their strength. I said, if they, if they don't see that strength in you, it's gonna infect your entire organization, and they're gonna be hesitant. They're gonna be tentative, they're not gonna be aggressive,
they're not gonna fight. Well, you've gotta, you gotta really understand that. And he got it. It, and he moved on from it. But it was at one point where he was just at that low air where he could have just gone over the cliff and started, oh my God, you know, that's just killing me. And crying in front of his guys. And they're all thinking, well, he doesn't have control. And I mean, you gotta,
you gotta deal with it. So anyway, he, he dealt with it. He dealt with it well, but as a leader, it's your job to make sure that it doesn't go over the cliff. That you're there to tell him, wait a minute, snap out of it. Okay, look, it's gonna happen again. You gotta get a handle on it right now and don't let it take you down. Now, you know, this guy was like a young son to me. But I mean, still the point is, you know,
hard love sometimes is something you gotta give into those conditions. That's, that's the way I handle it. I don't wanna take up too much more of your time, but I do have a question. Sure. Regarding the age of internet and the, the idea that AI is getting more and more sentient, uh, more and more capable of acting of its own accord, we all like to think that Isaac OVS rules apply, but who knows? How do you see the, how do you see AI shaping the future of the military?
Well, I see, I see the battlefield being much different than it's ever been before in history. Um, you know, a lot of things that we have out there today that I think are antiquated and, and we'll see in the next five to 10 years that are just, you know, because of lethality and te technology, uh, it's gonna change like tanks and aircraft carriers, I think they're obsolete.
I mean, we can use 'em right now, but in the next four to five years, you're gonna see they're big targets in the ocean that when they hit, they cost billions of dollars, use thousand lose thousands of lives. And because of technology and the speed of technology, uh, you're gonna be able to destroy 'em. I mean, we're already seeing on the battlefield today because of Lobo munitions and the ability to penetrate tanks. You can kill tanks. Like you can never kill 'em before.
So these forms of technology on the battlefield are gonna have to change. I mean, I envision a battlefield of the future is, uh, automated, autonomous, and extremely lethal. As an example, you know, this trench warfare that's going on in Ukraine and Russia right now, where they're in these trenches fighting, here's a trench, here's a trench,
and they're shooting and maneuvering, trying to get in the trench clear. Em. I think that, uh, as an example, and this is all hypothetical, uh, you're gonna have these little balls or omelets, they're gonna have biometrics integrated into 'em, have their own propulsion systems. You can drop 'em out of an airplane by hundreds. They'll hit the ground and they'll roll across the battlefield at 150 to 75 miles an hour, and they'll look for human, human signature and they'll go kill it.
Where before you had to maneuver as a soldier and get 'em in your sight and shoot 'em. And, you know, well, when that happens, they become so lethal that, you know, when do the humans get on the battlefield? Cause it will change the dynamic significantly. And, you know, for me, you know, I think that's gonna, it's gonna change a lot for us. And because of that, things will change. I mean, significantly. You know, the real question is, is, uh, how will future wars be fought? Uh,
will it be AI against ai? Uh, and AI is many tentacles. I mean, it'll be many different places. You know, how does, uh, uh, what happens in information wise if the information that is feeding AI is corrupted? And what if people, I mean, it's like the internet today, you know, people, like we said before in critical thinking, they pull an article up, they read it, and they just believe it because it's in their ideological base.
Where with ai, you know, you can influence mobs and groups and people just boom like that. And it will have thought about the, the primary, secondary and tertiary effects before even the human can think about it and adjust to those automatically to create the dilemmas that, you know, could be used by an enemy that uses AI against us or us using it against them. Uh, I'm, I'm like the creators of ai. I'm very, I'm very fearful of what will come with AI if we don't have some type of,
I guess you would say, um, ethical control over it. I see it also having, you know, great benefits for us in many areas as it relates to labor. But that presents another problem. I don't know if it's called universal salary for people that, you know, you just get a salary, uh, to maintain a standard of living. Well, AI will eliminate so many jobs that you have to create some type of system that
allows 'em to have sustenance and survive. So, you know, there's, there's many undetermined things that can occur because of AI and warfare and society and media and personal engagements. I mean, the thing that bothers me too is, uh, the authenticity of what is presented in a visual fashion to people today because of the sophistication of AI and deep. Fake kind of videography. All that stuff is.
Pgi stuff like that. Yeah. That can, you know, really fake it is, is what people believe or don't believe. And so we've got some significant challenges. I mean. And they're coming up fast. And they're coming up fast. You know, again, I, I really have great faith in, in, in humanity, period. Uh, I believe that, you know, good responsible people are gonna do the right things.
There'll be bad people that do bad things. They've been with us forever. But I, I just believe in humanity and I believe that, uh, that we will step forward. We will figure out how to manage this and manage it properly and do the best that we can with it. We're gonna have, we're gonna have challenges with it. Like anything else, it's just like life. But. Well, I think about the idea of AI getting us to the point of, as you said, if everything is automated, will there be become, will,
will people make a leap to realize that? It's ridiculous. And it takes me back to the movie war games where the program said, strange game, the only logical way to win is just not to play. Well, you know, I'll tell you like, like when I talk about, uh, future warfare and the o and the locality of warfare, it will be too expensive to have human life on the battlefield because it just, it won't, it won't be able to survive against the machines that'll be out there on the
systems that'll be out there. Mm. But you know, then, you know, how do we protect, how do we, how do we defend? You know? How do you do that? I'm not sure. I, I met a guy on a plane, uh, a couple weeks ago who I hope will come on the show who's, uh, lieutenant, who's a lieutenant colonel in Space Force. Mm-hmm. . And I thought, oh, when we run out of people to fight on this planet , we're gonna try going outward.
Well, you know, the concept I think actually for space, at least from Elon Musk's perspective, is, uh, the continuation of humanity in the event of a cataclysmic event, or I guess you would say, uh, I'm not a life altering event. I can't remember the term that he used, but it was an extinction event. I think he looks at Mars as being a great place for water rights also.
It's possible. But also believe that, you know, if there is an extinction event, uh, for humanity to survive, it has to have a place to go. Sure. To have a place to be. So there's a possibility that, you know, there is some prudence of that or validity to it. I don't know. All I'm doing is. And who knows, there could have been a cataclysmic event on Mars. And the transpa theory that we are actually descended from those people is a fun one to think about too. But it'll be.
Interesting when they get there to look at the geology, to see what's there. Because some of the pictures I've seen been pretty compelling that something was there. Absolutely. It could have been at one time a hospitable place. It's fascinating. You have probably in the capacity of all the different aspects of you going along in your military life and in your home life too. But you've been a father to thousands of people. You know, when I was, again, in the military, the,
one of the things I guess I enjoyed the most was the young people. I loved them. I mean, they were like, my family. I just love these kids. I mean, and I look at it and really believe this with all my heart that, I mean, it's about our sons and daughters. I mean, I used to think all the time, every kid that I dealt with, I would just pray that somebody would deal with my kids the same way, regardless of whether we were in the military or if they were somewhere and,
you know, they needed help that you'd be there for 'em. And, and honestly, that's the way I looked at every kid. I mean, it didn't matter to me. Race, color, Crete, I didn't care. I didn't care. I loved each and every one of them, just like they were my own kids. And cause of that, I mean, I've got a lot of these young kids that I still see today or gimme calls and it's like being a teacher in school. You know, guys call their teacher and tell 'em thank you for what they've done for 'em.
And I get a lot of kids that do that to me. And I'll tell you, it's the greatest reward in life. But, you know, to me it's, it's really, whether it's in the military or out here with your own personal family, it's really family. I mean, if you really look back at it, I mean, our whole nation, our whole world is a family. And if we treated it that way,
you know, we'd, we'd probably be so much better off. But, you know, I just, I don't understand why we're heading the way we're heading in many directions and what people are thinking and what they're trying to do. But we have complicated it more than ever. But we've created these, just these hatred divisions that just to me are terrible. I, I mean, I can't stand them. You know, one of the things I see with the people that are in politics,
politics really bother me. They drive me crazy when I look out. I almost don't watch the news at all. I do a lot of reading. I read more than I do anything. I just don't watch TV that much anymore. Only because it's just poisonous in many areas. I like good entertainment, like movies or things like that. But, uh, I prefer to read, I mean,
I love to read. I like to read old books. I mean, um, you know, one of my favorites is Carl Sandberg's edition of Abraham Lincoln, which is a five volume set, which is very rich in information that we just don't get anywhere else anymore. I mean, reading to me is everything cuz I love it. I mean, I probably read a book or two a week only because it just, I mean, you just can't get the, the wealth of that type of information from media.
I agree with you a hundred percent. I'm a big book person myself. So Yeah. I so appreciate your time. This has been a really interesting conversation. Well. Susan, listen, anything you need in the future, if you need help on anything or you wanna talk about anything or you need another podcast, give me a call and we'll be friends forever. I mean, I won't see you much, but you know, we're, we're friends for life. Okay.
I appreciate that. Have a wonderful day. Thank you for listening everybody. Bye. God bless you. Bye-Bye Bye. Please rate reviews. Subscribe to hey podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Bye.