The Making of 'Making a Murderer'

their careers, what relationships influenced their work. At this point, it would be almost impossible not to have heard of Making a Murderer, the ten part Netflix series that launched last month, Stephen Avery Story, is a cultural phenomenon, with viewers launching petitions calling for a retrial and even a presidential pardon. It's a story with many detours and a wide range of characters. Here's what we know. Stephen Avery worked at his family's auto salvage yard in Manitoick County, Wisconsin.

He had a few prior convictions before his arrest for sexual will assault in He served eighteen years for that crime until DNA evidence proved his innocence and he was exonerated. Just two years after his release, Avery and his nephew, Brendan Dacy, were arrested and subsequently convicted for the murder

of a female photographer. The story is still unfolding. The series has provoked many of the lead characters to speak out Ken Kratz, the lead prosecuting attorney, recently accused the filmmakers of making a murderer, of leaving out important information. My guests today are those filmmakers Laura Richardi and Moira Dimas. They've spent the past ten years documenting Stephen avery story, which they first read about in the New York Times. This is Laura Richardi. We actually met in graduate film

school at Columbia University. You know, we had no money, and that's moradems. I mean, we had negative money. This is we were borrowing money. So thening what what year you saw every on the Times was the beginning the day before Thanksgiving in two thousand and five. He had been arrested and charged in the Teresa Halbach murder. You know this the headlineman freed by DNA, now charged a new crime. It just seemed like, you know, he was this incredible window through which to look at our system.

You know, if we followed this man's story, we would go from one extreme of the system to the other. So as I was saying, you know, we had no money, but what we what we could put into it was time, which is actually an incredibly valuable asset. And after doing a preliminary week of shooting in December, realized this was something we wanted to pursue, and we sublet our apartment in New York. We've got an apartment in mant Walk and we lived there, you know, more on than off

for close to two years. So I think a lot of the access we had was you know, because we were there, because we weren't going anywhere. What was it like to live there? And how did the principles on either side treat you well? I would say there was definitely a range of responses. Um, there were some people who were wary of us. We were in an unknown um two individuals from New York City who you know, had descended upon Manitoa County, Wisconsin, and we were mysterious

in a way. But we were collaborating with the local media. We were documenting the hall Buck cases. It was unfolding, so we were also very public, trying to be very collaborative. So we did whatever we could too to seem what we actually were, which was non threatening. You know. We were there simply to document events as they were unfolding. You know, we were not there to judge. We were there to listen and to witness law enforcement despised Stephen.

Every Stephen Avery was a shiny example of their inadequacies. There, we reached out to um the two attorneys who represented Stephen Avery in his federal civil rights lawsuit against Manitoa County and two of its former law enforcement officers. And these were two individuals who were sort of at the opposite extreme of those who were wary. These individuals, Steve Glenn and Walt Kelly. I think, in a sense we're happy that we reached out to them because they were

concerned that the history would otherwise be lost. Because of course, when we first met with them, Stevens civil lawsuit had already settled, and so to the extent they wanted, which he then had to give what one sixty two attorneys and the and then if I watched, because I did watch this very career and tried to think attention, and then the two forty was left to bankroll the other defense case. Correct, that's right. I mean the money never

touched Steven's hands. Just to clarify for listeners, the money that he won in a civil suit for being falsely imprisoned for eight years was used. His net proceeds were used to fund his defense for the murder trial. You know, Steve Glenn expressed to us the actual heartbreak he felt when Stephen was arrested in this new crime. One of the reasons for that was he knew what Stephen himself and the Avery family had endured throughout Steven's wrongful imprisonment

for eighteen years. Steve Glenn had actually represented Stephen avery Um in Steven's post conviction efforts in the mid nineties and fully believed in Steven's innocence. So, you know, he was a client, he had a long history with someone he really cared about who now found himself back in the system facing mandatory life. And so Steve Glenn, you know, expressed to us that Stephen not only had a thirty six million dollar lawsuit pending, but also expressed to us

why Stephen brought that lawsuit to begin with. He wasn't digging for gold. He was trying to prevent what happened to him and what happen been to Penny Burns in the victim in the first case, from happening to anyone else.

For those who don't know the story that well, he is falsely imprisoned for eighteen years from two thousand three and he gets out, he's exonerated by DNA evidence when he's in prison for ten years, the neighboring sheriff's department or county police, you can articulate this, contact the matina Walk people and say we think he got the wrong guy. We think we know who the guy is. And the people in matin O say we're fine, correct, Yeah, it's

ten years into stephen sentence. And what happens is that an officer from Brown County calls the Mantwalk Sheriff's department and says, we have somebody in custody who says that he committed a sexual assault in Mattwak County and someone else is serving time. So they actually infessed, had somebody confessing to it? Was it the guy that was eventually found guilty of the crime. It's hard to track down exactly who made that call. Did they find someone that

was guilty of her of her rape? Did they convict someone else? They did, yes, um, and it is likely that person that was confessing because the timing was verified. It was never verified, but in Gregory Allen that the DNA UM that had been collected in the rape kit in five was retested and it matched this person, Gregory Allen, who was in the system because he had been convicted of a subsequent rape in so the timing of of that phone call does point to Gregory Allen making that confession.

So eventually Avery is released in two thousand three, correct, and when he gets out, he starts suing people. And the lawsuit that results in the four thousand dollar judgment that was Avery suing who under what banner? There was a civil rights lawsuit. It was a federal civil rights lawsuit.

But if I can, I would like to back up because he did not immediately start suing people they were is actually a call to action, I think a week after his exoneration for the Attorney General to look into what had gone wrong, And there was a d c I investigators put on that case and many reports written

about what they were finding. But ultimately, after those reports were submitted to lawyers at the Attorney General's office, the official report that was written was that there was no wrongdoing and that there was no ethical or criminal violations in the case. So it was at that point, when the system itself did not hold itself accountable, that Stephen

took the steps to file a lawsuit. So he files that lawsuit, that lawsuit is adjudicated over what period of time he gets the settlement When Stephen filed the lawsuit in October of two thousand four and settled it I believe in February of two thousand six, which was who settled all of the defendants which were in that case. We're Manitoa County, its former sheriff, tomka Surich, and its

former secutor Dennis Vogel. Both Casserk and Vogel were being sued in their official capacity and in their individual capacity. They pay anything individually. The settlement was paid by who? Which entity paid the four thousand The terms of the settlement were confidential. I mean it was reported in the news the amount that Stephen ultimately settled for, but we were not able to verify that. Then he has another lawsuit. The thirty six million dollar lawsuit is by him individually

against who who does he sue them? Well to clarify that there's only one lawsuit. So when he sues in October of um two thousand and four, that is for thirty six million dollars against Mantua County, the former sheriff

and the former district attorney. And it's important to recognize the timing of the settlement because Stephen does not settle the lawsuit until he has been charged with the murderer of Teresa Halbuck, until he is desperate for funds, and you know, he says himself, like, what good is money going to do me? You know, if I can't prove my innocence, you know, I have to give up. What was his goal of holding somebody accountable for what had happened to him to try to defend himself. So it

was it was the single lawsuit. There was no settlement of this lawsuit, and some other lawsuit was hanging over the heads of Colburn and Link and those people. Correct, it was one loss. It was one lawsuit. Um. And you mentioned Colburn and Length, they had they had been deposed in the lawsuit, and the content of those depositions was about this phone call about Gregory Allen confessing or somebody purportedly Gregor Allen confessing to this assault for which

Stephen was serving time. And what was done with that phone call and the fact that it was buried and that it was there were no reports written and there were no repercussions for them for them, they were not.

At the time, there was talk among the civil attorneys that perhaps those two individuals should be added as defendants in the lawsuit, but that did not have an opportunity to happen because he had to crash the whole thing to get the money to pay for the That's right, I think an interesting detail that came out during Stephen's trial when Dean Strang was cross examining then sergeant patrol Sergeant Andrew Colburn, he asked him, at the time you

were deposed in the lawsuit, did you have any concern that you yourself might be added as a defendant in the lawsuit? And Colburn answered affirmatively, He said, yes, it had crossed my mind. At the center of this is Avery, who I'm assuming you spent countless hours with him or around him correct, um, hours on the phone mostly UM. We were able to visit him in the county jail times. I would guess maybe eight, maybe ten. How did he

strike you? Well, he's about two inches shorter than I am, and I'm what am I five ft five, So I was a little surprised by his stature and um, but he had a big smile, He was very affable, he was very open, he was very gracious, and um, you know, it just it appeared to us that this was somebody

with a very simple value system, but a value system. Nonetheless, the thing about this that that I think about in terms of the two of you as filmmakers, is you spend countless hours immersed in this, and did you develop an ability to tell who's telling the truth and who's lying? Did you become a bit more expert at that from doing this? I mean, I think we certainly developed the ability to identify, you know, should I be inclined to

trust this person and what they're saying. And I think that was about, you know, being there and and hearing from so many people and going into the documents, you know, because we were one of the things that series is about, and one of the things we were fascinated with was there was what was going on in public and then

there was what was going on behind the scene. Give us a distinction that struck you well, you know, once Brendan got sucked into this case, and so you know, Stephen's sister is the mother of his nephew, and it becomes his family drama and in the public, there's a lot of talk of Barbyonda is, you know, trying to protect Steven avery and the family is forcing Brendan to recant. You know. Then you go to their living room and they're fighting over this, and she actually doesn't necessarily even

believe in Stephen or her son. She she thinks every might have killed the woman. Yeah, there are moments like that. She is too, she's grappling it with it herself. And you know, that's just all simplified and missed on the public level. And and and again. To interject this for people who haven't seen the piece, the man who was released from prison after eighteen years on the rape charge

is then accused of murder. And then it goes to another level again when the guy's nephew is roped into the whole thing to confess against him because they don't have any really reliable physical evidence, so they need an eye witness. What else happens to her in her head extremely extremely important to tell us us for us to believe you, come on, Brendon, what else? I don't even know the worst to describe it, That's all I can't remember. All right, I'm just gonna come out and ask him

who shot her in the head? He why didn't you tell us that it? Now you remember it when you were around that family, Because they do come across. There's a little whiff of some kind of clear shade appellatesha to these people, describe them. These people were not Bible thumping God fearing people. No, although it is interesting, um, you know in the episode UM eight, I guess it is Dolores, Stephen's mother says, you know, I know God

is on my side. You know, they might not be Bible thumping and you know performing that they're going to church, but but they have faith. They have a belief system. And I think in terms of how the community thinks about them or respond to them, I think the dividing line is really between people that know them and that people that don't know them. They have supporters, people that have interacted with them, customers, and how they're treated everybody there.

The law enforcement community, particularly the one that Colburn and Lank work with that law and that's the County correct the County Sheriff's Department that they have their opinion of the the Avery family. But the Averys had their supporters and they were members of a community. Correct, not everybody hated them. I thought they were trash, that's right. I Mean one of the things we came to learn is that, um, you know, in a way, the Averies were considered the

other in that particular community. They were not dairy farmers. Um, although many of them worked in factories. It's also there's there's industry in Manittoau County as well, but um, you know, their profession, their livelihood was different and they were essentially members of an underclass. So they were identified as the other. And as you mentioned earlier, Alec, um, you know, they weren't churchgoing people, so in a way, they you know,

they didn't fit into the community in that sense. But what was interesting to us was that, um, you know, the Averies were content. They kept to themselves and they were happy with that. You know, they did tend to get into some trouble when they did venture out into the community. I mean you mentioned that Stephen had some priors,

and he certainly did so. Um. That was interesting to us though to to try to it get a sense of how self aware they were or how they considered themselves in the community, and and did they were they conscious of being thought of as the other and it's it seemed to us that they weren't really conscious of that. Um, you know, you were accused of soft selling some of those priors and do you agree was there If you'd had it to do over again, would you have been

more explicit about what he did? Explain about that now? I mean we you know, our process was about using primary source materials. To the extent they were available to us. We would review them, and we wanted support for whatever was included in the documentary. We fact checked, We had multiple sources for things, right. I mean, it's been reported in the national news in the last few days. The

documentary says this, but the truth is this. I'm assuming that when this thing rolled out, I'm sure Netflix has a legal department like no other is rich. Retflix is rich, and they've got a lot of money to fact check and so forth. I'm sure they put you through the ringer about that for a period of time. Did you

have copious sessions with them about that? Yeah? I mean certainly, all the legal checking, all of the clearing of title and checking all of our releases, everything was a thorough process. When you're done with that process and the program has rolled out, on Netflix. Certainly you anticipated you would have some blowback from the principles involved, correct, Did you prepare yourself for that? Yeah, I mean it's no surprise to us what Crats is coming out and saying. I mean,

I can't even say I'm disappointed. I mean, it's so predictable. What's disappointing is that, you know, the reporters on the national news are not asking him what is your source, They're not looking at the record and challenging him on his statements. They're sort of doing exactly what we document happened during the hall Buck case. He makes a statement, the media puts it out there as truth, and you know, off we go. The repercussions from the series seemed to

change daily. Last week, Avery's former fiance Jodi Stakowski, who appears sympathetic to him in making a murderer, gave an interview stating that she believed he murdered Hallbach. She also said she asked not to appear in the series. Moira and Laura have responded by saying, quote, we and our legal team are very comfortable that we had the appropriate consent from all of the interview subjects, including Jody unquote Explorer the Here's the Thing Archives, where I talk with

Gay Tales, the father of long form journalism. I never wrote about a person, and I've written about hundreds and hundreds of people that I couldn't go to see again. I never had someone that wouldn't see me. In fact, my attitude was the story is never over. I could write about someone that's a performing athlete or performing an actor, and then ten years later and go back and see them again. I wrote about Peter Tool my favorite person in not long after who did Lawrence Arabia. I kept

in touch with him for the next forty years. I believe that people, as long as they're alive, have more stories to tell. Just because you published an article in the New York Times and the New Yorker magazine doesn't mean that the story is over. Take a listen that Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The ten part Netflix series Making a Murderer has made more than a few people household names, including Avery's defense attorney's Dean Strang and

Jerry Beauty and Teresa Hallbox brother Mike. I want to talk about a person who to me is one of the more disturbing figures in the show, and that is Haubuck's brother hopefully, you know, move on, hopefully with Teresa still in our life. And this guy was as velvety and as seamless and did not seem to be mourning his sister at all. What was your opinion of the brother. Well,

there's an interesting detail. Um, when Dean and Jerry first came to represent Stephen Avery, one of their early motions they brought they were going to seek a gag order essentially against the state because, um, you might recall back in November when law enforcement took over the Avery property for eight days of searches, they were actually daily press conferences, televised press conferences that were also you know, on radio and in print, and um, you know, as soon as

these private attorneys came to represent Steven, they wanted to put a stop to that. And what happened was the two sides ultimately entered into a stipulation and said, Okay, neither side, we'll talk to the press, we won't do any more pre child publicity. But I think what's interesting to note is that Mike hall Buck, who was essentially

the spokesperson for the hall Buck family. Um, it seems ultimately like sort of was passed the torch by Ken Cratts because my Callbuck continued to speak in the press. You concerned that with each witness, this window of reasonable doubt keeps getting wider and wider. No, I'm not concerned at all. Um. I think it's a hand that's kind of forced upon the prosecution team. That's, you know, kind of my belief. So not concerned at all. He was

essentially channeling the state's narrative. I mean, he was saying explicitly, what matters to our family is that Stephen Avery is convicted of this crime. Did you interview them at all? Did any of the hall Bucks agree to be interviewed by you? Um? They did not. I mean, like most of our subjects. Um, we wrote a letter to them introducing ourselves, introducing the project and what our goals were. Um. And that resulted in us eventually having coffee with Mike.

What what my recollection of what Mike told us was, you know, because we had described, you know, we want to look at the American criminal justice system. We think, you know, there's a lot to be learned from this case and you know, the relationship of the past case since you know Steven's wrongful conviction to what's happening now. And he told us, you know, I don't think there's any problems with the justice system and there's nothing to be learned from Stephen Avery. Here was a man who

believed that Stephen Avery had murdered his sister. And you know, Steven Avery had served eighteen years in prison as an innocent man, and so potentially his narrative was that, you know, because he was in prison for eighteen years, he was now a murderer. So how could he at the same time say there's nothing wrong with the American criminal justice system finding her cell phone records? How does something like

that occur? Um, there are a couple of us that tried figuring it out, but basically figured out her password and made up a user name that worked and got into her her phone records. And I mean they pin it right off the deleted voice about that the boyfriend talked about or he was queried about when he was on the stand, explained to the audience what happened. The woman hall Box is murdered. This is the murder that Avery is then accused. She comes to photograph cars. She

comes to the salvage yard. She comes out from what town was she based in? Her workplace was in Green Bay, but she lived in um Callimet County, so she comes there and patrols that area and photographs cars to put on their website and their publication. An auto trader now explain how there were messages of hall box that were deleted by who who admitted to that? No one ultimately admitted to leading her messages. Her brother, Mike admitted to

listening to her her voicem guessing her password. I believe both Mike and Teresa's ex boyfriend, Ryan hilligas Um claimed to have yes to have guests Teresa's password and go in and listen to her voicemail. That's right, And some of her voicemails are deleted. That's right. I mean one of the one of the reasons this woman was reported missing was because people were calling her voicemail and getting the message that her mailbox was full. This was unusual

to people. She was very prompt and polite and got back to people, So that was that was a concern. That was one of the things that made people call each other. And have you seen her. Have you seen her? So we know that the mailbox was full as of a certain date. But then they have records a few days later and there's not enough messages there to trigger and Hiligas has guessed the passport, and Hiligas has a scratch on his face. And Hiligas is her ex boy friend.

They had been uh, they've been partying. Correct or they were part they were broken up. They were broken up, broken up? How long were they broken up? To do recall that? I believe Ryan testified that they last dated when they were still in college. I believe Do you remember where? Yeah, I don't know how many years the gap, It was a long time. But they were in each other's lives. Teresa lived with a friend, a male friend, in a house. That friend was one of Ryan's best friends.

I mean, they were in each other's lives. The other part, because I want to get to your personal stories of self, just pick one more topic of this to talk about, which is this stuff about the burning of the body parts being moved from a burn pit. Explain to the audience what the prosecutors claim happened to Hallbox body in their mind, and what you think the potential conflicts are

in the actual evidence that you know of. Well, the state presented evidence and argued to the jury that Teresa hallback after she was shot in the head and murdered in that way, that her body was mutilated and burned. Investigators recovered human cremains from a burn pit outside of Stephen Avery's bedroom window essentially and right behind his trailer, that's right. They also recovered human remains from a burned barrel which was outside of Stephen's sisters residents next door

to Steven's property. But interestingly, the defense elicited testimony from the state's owned forensic anthropologist who testified, that's right, Dr Leslie Eisenberg, that there were what seemed to be human cremains also UM found in a quarry a quarter of a mile away from these other two locations where the cremaines were found matched that essentially matched, I mean they were burned to burn in cal signed to the same degree as these other bones, and you can't do a

DNA test on that material um. Well, just to be clear, the bones found in um in Steven's burn pitt and the bones found in the burned barrel behind Barb's house those were matched to Teresa hall Buck. It's it's the bones that were in the quarry pile that we're too small and and too fragmented to be able to identify. You think he's guilty, Avery, I mean, you know this following this case for a decade was you know, such an incredible experience, which we tried to offer to our

viewers as well. But you know, we went in with questions. You know, that's what got us to move from New York to mash Walk. We thought, naively, oh, we'll get answers to these questions, and it's just so clear that it just leads to more questions, and um, you know, there's no way I can claim to have any real certainty about his guilty. I think if I was on that jury, I would vote, um, that they hadn't proved their case. You vote not guilty based on the case presented.

You're not saying he's innocent, but you're saying that the case was just filled with inconsistencies. That's right, and that's such an important distinction to make because that's what juries are deciding. It's guilty or not guilty. There's no verdict of innocent in this country. That's a good point. By the way, I'm gonna quote you to borrow that from you and nausea him. There is no verdict of innocent

in this country. That's great. Um. The juror who was dismissed because of the family crisis or whatever was that happened with his daughter, she was in a car accident. That's right. That gentleman came out and mentioned that. In the first balloting of the first preliminary balloting of the jury, it was seven voted for innocent, corrected of twelve people. That's correct. Yeah, when they walk in and you know, just to sort of take a straw pole, that was

That was the pole. The juror you mentioned, Richard Mahler, who was excused and who appears in the series, told us about um at one point. The jurors who actually

were deliberating and taking their oath seriously. We're looking through photographs of the bookcase from Steven's bedroom, and this is a bookcase where a key piece of evidence, actually a key, the car ignition key from Teresa Hallbuck's vehicle was supposedly found by Officer Lieutenant James Lank And what this juror said to us was that the jury was discussing how before the key was found there was change, loose change on top of the bookcase, and they were looking at photographs, um,

after the key was found, and that change was in the same position. And why that was significant to these jurors was that there was testimony that the key was not initially discovered because it was hidden inside this bookcase and had only fallen out after Sergeant Colburn claims to have really shake in the bookcase and you know, done all this stuff, the change remains intact. I mean, that was the jurors analysis. And was there a period where you sat there and said, you know, we're done, We're

gonna leave. And then you know in the Pacino has that line in The Godfather Part three, I try to get out, but they keep pulling me back in. Is that your condition as well? Well? Um, you know we did. We followed these cases through convictions and through sentencing. So that was the summer of two thousand seven, and we just practically speaking had to leave and we had to go back to day jobs and try to dig ourselves out a little bit from debt. What's your day job then, um, well,

my job before going to film school. I'm in Local fifty two as an electrician, had worked on movie sets. Film sets, you and I ever worked together? I think we may have. I did some days on thirty rocks. So yeah, it's crazy right coming together. It's a coming together. Electrical. I did electrical, but I'd also wore because a documentary editor. Um, and then from there finally was like, I'm just going to go to film school and do that. So um,

I sort of fell back on being an electrician. It was a much easier career to go in for a few days or a few months and go out of so it allowed me the flexibility to keep doing this project. You know. Part of it was just the time it took really for the marketplace to evolve and for us to be able to do enough in that sort of part time way to get the project far enough along that we could show a place like Netflix what this

was and what we could do. And you know, at that point then we wanted to do they right away Netflix, Yes, right away? And what about you? The first meeting to be specific, and what about what about you? What were you doing to pay the bills? I was working as a contract attorney doing electronic discovery for mainly for a

complex business litigation matter. So I was drowning in documents every day essentially, and then drowning in documents relating to all the matters in this story, as well as footage

and phone calls and everything else. Yeah, I mean there were times where I would take Brendan Dassy's phone calls, where would load up you know, my computer for me to take to work or my iPad with Brendan Dassy's phone calls, and I would be listening to them at work, um and taking notes, which you helped us sift through hundreds of hours of these calls with his mother and other people in his life. It's interesting how I didn't assume that you put your legal career on hold, and

you didn't. You were practicing while you did this to you know, have a have an income. But whatever your aspirations were when you thought about going to law school and you were in law school. Isn't it funny how you didn't necessarily practice law of these last ten years, but you ended up doing more for this case than any lawyer might have done in the work you've done. Do you do have that feeling? I think that's an

excellent point. Actually, um more More pointed out to me recently that you know, when this finally airs, the subjects in our series will get to see, you know, a much broader picture. I mean they they offered to us their piece of the puzzle essentially, and that was really exciting to me because I hadn't really thought of it in that way before. So we were looking forward to sharing the series with you know, the world essentially, but then also we wanted to see how our subjects would

respond to it. And yes, I mean I I continued practicing law while working on this project, but I had seriously scaled back prior to embarking on this journey. I was working as an associated at a midsize firm in Chicago and working practically every day of the week. I went back to law school. I was trying to get an advanced legal degree in l M and taxation. And I was, um, you know, and I said, Okay, well, I'm essentially going to demote myself. I'm going to work

as an hourly attorney. Um, take a tremendous pay cut, but what I will get in exchange is flexibility in terms of my schedule. I'll have more control over my schedule. I won't have to be concerned about face time or pleasing partners necessarily, and that will afford me what I need to do to continue moving this project forward with Moira. But I think your point, Alec is great because you know, I know Laura very well, and you know what I know is that you know she left her career in

law to go to film school. This This is you know, four or five years before embarking on this project. And she did that because you know, she thought she could make more of a difference through film than through practicing as a lawyer. And so your point is is perfect, you hope. So I probably wouldn't do it this way, but certainly because you are a couple, because your partners in your private life. You tell me, Moira, what are her strengths, what does she bring to the filmmaking process

that you think is important? I mean, I think Laura is one of the most moral and ethical people I've ever met, and she's also one of the most detail oriented people I've ever met. An LM and taxation, I hope. So, so you know those three things right there, what that brought to this project? The ability to you know, go through the documents, you know, draw boundaries with our subjects, you know, fact check anything we were going to put into the series. You know, it's invaluable your term. Where

to begin? Um, I just felt very fortunate to be you know, partnered in life and in work with Moira because she is the most trustworthy individual I know. And um, you know, she she committed herself to this project. I mean Moira, as she said she you know, she'd been working as an electrician in the industry, worked as a as a documentary editor, but really wanted, um, I think, to work in fiction filmmaking and and and finally had worked up the courage to say, I want to direct.

And I've tried these other things possible avenues to directing, and I'm I'm going to commit myself to entering into this film program and become a director. And um, you know, I asked her if she would partner with me on this project, and she jumped in, and she gave everything she had to it and never once made me feel like she regretted it or that you know, there was

something better she could have been doing. And and I respect her tremendously for that, and I appreciate that and beyond that, just in terms of her creativity and um, the talent she has. I mean, I I am just in awe of Moira and her ability to edit this series. I mean she were yeah, and I mean you know where would would help contain my ideas in a way. I mean she would you know, she would support them

and encourage them. But at the same time, I mean she just served in this incredible capacity as an editor because you know, I wasn't the type of director who would say, Okay, here's what I want to do and leave for two weeks. You know, I was in the edit room every day with MOIRAUM, but often I would step away and you know, do research or um contact our subjects, or do other things, act as a creative producer or you know, think about more big picture stuff.

But Mara was really down in the weeds with the material and did a fantastic job. Now the last thing is so I could be silly about this and say, well, I'm assuming your next movie is about figure skating or something really kind of very schiffani and sweet. What's a you got something going on? What are you doing? You don't want to talk about it? Well? Right, I mean,

perhaps we don't want to, right. Maybe that's also just a nice thing to say at this point, because you know, the series launched less than three weeks ago at this point, and I think we've finished it less than four weeks ago, so and you know, here we are doing press and we hosted family during the holidays, and so you know, we can't wait for the moment to refill the well. As they say. It's also we made this series to start a dialogue, and it's important to us to be

part of that dialogue. So you know, we'll be doing this for a little while and you know, following this case, if if things develop, but we do hope to to find another another story that needs to be told, and my Laura Rachariti and more Redeems find it, We and many of their fans will be there to watch and listen. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing.