Scott Hechinger and Robert Greenwald: Battling the Status Quo

the critically acclaimed Burning Bed. The filmmaker then pivoted turning his talents into real political action. But first, I'm talking to civil rights attorney Scott Heckinger. He's the founder and executive director of Zealous, an organization harnessing the power of storytelling for social justice. Scott Heckinger believes that inaccurate narratives on crime and policing help shape perception and policy, and

he's working to change that. Zealous works with public defenders and advocates on campaigns that aim to change a broken criminal justice system and push for true public health and safety. Before Zealous, Heckinger was a public defender where he saw firsthand the many flaws in our system of mass criminalization. He uses this background to inform media campaigns and get the word out in mainstream outlets like The New York Times,

Washington Post, and The Atlantic. A recent article by Heckinger in the Nation critiqued the coverage of crime in a post pandemic world, citing both NPR and The New York Times as culprits of sensationalist journalism. With his extensive background within the criminal justice system, I asked Scott Heckener if support for defund the police, bail reef form, and public

defenders is largely drawn over racial lines. I mean, one of the things that I think is perhaps most misunderstood is that not just black leaders, but black communities are right now or at a place where they don't want police, and they are, you know, championing decarceration and eager to support less policing, less prosecutions, less prisons as a way

to get to public health and safety. So I think we, as kind of folks in the movement assume that if you're black, even living in over criminalized and over police communities, you're just you're gonna be supportive of greater funding for example, for public defense. Um, you're going to be supportive of these kind of policies that I think are important to get us to a better place. But it's just not the case. Why Why, Well, I think black community members

are getting messages from their church. They're getting messages also from the same places where white liberal progressives are getting their formation. That's New York Times, that's CNN, that's New York Post, that's you know, media, which is painting a picture of public safety and justice and crime and punishment as good and evil. And they're hearing sensational cases about violence,

and they're feeling deeply fearful. And also they too are a product of a popular culture in the United States that paints deeply misconceived, inaccurate picture of justice, which is that police prevent and solve crime, that prisons keep us safer, that there are good people and evil people, that everyone gets their day in court, that people have trials and juries that render a verdict. So you're saying that an interesting number of people of color they are viewing things

the same way white people do. Yes, So there's a system that's there, and they support that system and view that system in the same way. Yes. And it's kind of compounded by the fact that a lot of folks in black and brown communities that are over policed, overcome lies,

are literally facing violence. I mean, violence is real. They're hearing gunshots, they feel less safe, they feel less safe, and because of the culture in which they've grown up, like white folks, and the culture and the media that they read, there's kind of a universal lack of imagination

for what an alternative could look like. And that, mixed with fear, makes it so that we continue to want to invest even despite all the evidence, the countrary that's not working, that's not working in police, more police, more prosecutions, more prisons, even though we spend more on this stuff than any other society in the history of the world. And my god, are we not the healthiest and safest. What would you say in the modern world in your lifetime?

What have you noticed? Does it really go back in my mind as it go back to Juliani, broken windows, Bratton, that whole thing here in New York or even across the country. When did it begin where we needed to paramilitarized the police departments? Oh boy, My initial gut is it goes back to slavery. And I don't say that like lightly or facetiously. Um, modern day policing was born out of slave patrols. Riker's Island, just as an example, is named after Richard Riker, who was a famous white

slave catcher. Um, you're kidding me. No, oh my god, I didn't know that. Now he was the comptroller and he was a famous like northern slave catcher who would like catch slaves and seldom down back down south for for bounty. Um. Yeah, that's the place where now thousands of predominantly black and brown people are caged pre trial, presumed innocent only because they cannot afford to buy their freedom.

This is it's baked like racism, harshness, all that stuff is baked into American society in New York is no different policing though in prisons, so it was always there. I do think though, that over the last half century we've seen this combination of politics, media, and and fear kind of jumble together to create this formula in favor of greater harshness. It's driven by power. It is driven by prison interests, is driven by prosecutors, is driven by

police and they're talking points. It's enabled by popular culture, all too willing to just repeat these popular narratives, and a media that in the best cases just kind of falling on bad habits and practices and relationships that they've built with police and prosecutors as easy sources and kind of being lazy in worst case, really actively affirmatively trying to help this narrative, but it's put out there and people then they see and they feel like our current

system is inevitable, the mass incarceration is inevitable, that imprisoning two point three million people is inevitable, and it isn't and it shouldn't be. And we're at this point where we need to topple this imbalance of power and control over criminal policy and media because that control over it and that narrative and that reinforced message is influencing people's basic intuitions. How does zealous try to change this narrative?

In a lot of ways, so we support public defenders, local organizers, people a direct experience locally to harness a range of advocacy skills that public defenders didn't learn in

law school and organizers didn't either. So around just social media advocacy, traditional media, new media advocacy, but also kind of more fundamental stuff like just how to talk about systemic issues in a way that is not legal ease um that actually can reach more people, how to talk about issues in ways with language and words that don't

um further entrenched the status quo. One of the things about public defenders in public defense, so like Brooklyn Defender Services where I practice for close to a decade still, people who have represented were who were convicted. Those convictions came from guilty please, And the reason for that was just the range of laws and practices that intersected to

kind of course silence essentially like against the truth. And and our advocacy tools in court were so limited, right, We were limited to an audience of a judge and a prosecutor who were already predisposed to kind of status quo cruelty. We were limited terms of the media that we were able to use. It was oral advocacy or written advocacy were limited terms and messenger was us doing

the talking and language. And so what might it look like to do advocacy to leverage your perspective and expertise in partnership with communities to tell more compelling stories and more compelling ways to shift the narrative long term about crime and punishment. Well, wait, when you talk about the media's role in that narrative. The New York Times they need clicks and now they have a pretty good subscription base, they're making money, and they were poor crime in what

I would consider a more popular way. When you wrote the article about the Times, what was the lead up to that? What was happening? What were you noticing? I was noticing more of the same. The FBI came out with data about most unusual year in all ways, leading with a once in a hundred year global pandemic, and the headline was homicide spike, violent sores around the country. And so most people don't read beyond the headlines. And it wasn't just New York Times doing this, was MPR,

it was watching the Post. It was New York Post. And why headline cell right, You know, you want to get the clicks. It's a cessational. But I'd also don't think it's that interesting because the reality is the more interesting stuff actually is if you dig below and what was actually happening. But the data showed was that homicides were increasing everywhere universally around the country. Number one in places that had bail reform, places that which were very

few and most places that didn't. And a in blue states, places that had police protests against police violence, in places that didn't, rural areas, cities blew what it read, etcetera. The lead should have been this undermines the data that just came out undermines years worth of effort by police and prosecutors and prison interests across the country to convince us that any minor modest changes in a direction away from them actually was causing crime because it was universal

in places that had some changes in places that didn't. Instead, we hear homicides up. We also don't hear about the fact that in historical context they're still at historic lows. We also don't hear about the fact that across all other major types of crime, those numbers were universally down.

But instead we get this kind of sensational headline and this kind of mealy mouthed like kind of two sides speculation about the potential causes of the increase in homicides, and they allow, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, police and sometimes anonymous police sources to say, well, it could be this It could be bail reform. It could it might be low police morale because of protests against

them killing people. Policy debate inside of a new straight news story, yes, yeah, but but when there's when you know, a there's not really debate. I mean, I get the fact that people want to know answers they and this is a key piece, like people do want to know, and I get that instinct. Why is crime up? The

thing that's unbelievable. You have police out there and then media, very smart journalists from the New York Times and other places, taking their word for it and allowing them to like speculate about the causes of crime going up, and yet no one kind of addresses this key point of Okay, wait a second, we're paying you in New York City eleven billion dollars a year, the most of any police force in the country, more than most I would say, countries armies. And there's still crime at all, let alone

rising violence. And you're deflecting to something that just started two years ago that actually had been wildly successful, which I can talk about bail reform. It's this incredible slight at hand. Scott Heckinger, if you like conversations with dedicated advocates. Check out my interview with Ingrid new Kirk from People

for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We went to the Department of Justice, to the Attorney General's office, and we had very carefully, painstakingly documented how Ringling had allowed this lion to burn to death basically in the Mahave desert. So we went to the d o J and we said, look, Ringland gets away with this all the time. So that resulted in the biggest fine in US history against a circus. Here more of my conversation with Ingrid new Kirk at

Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Scott Heckinger breaks down the repercussions of electing former police officer Eric Adams as mayor of New York City. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In New York State attempted bail reform, a legislative effort that lasted just weeks before the law was changed. I wanted Scott Heckenscher to help explain bail reform and the criticisms that led

to its diminishment. Pretend that you don't know anything about bail reform and you're a legislator, just put yourself there and I'm coming to you to talk to you about a policy. I'm proposing a policy, and I'm telling you that I can guarantee the following result that in the next eighteen months and three thousand people who otherwise would have faced jail will be free, will be back with their families, will be in their jobs, will be able to wake up in their own bed, will be able

to fight their case, have a shot justice, shot at justice. Okay, so go start there. On top of that, we'll save taxpayers over six fifty million dollars. On top of that, I can guarantee that of the people who are released who otherwise would have faced bail reform will not be rearrested for any crime of violence, and even less for a crime involving any kind of use of a gun. My gut is you'd look at me like you're overpromising and you're being ridiculous, and no where you're out of

your mind. That's what it is. That's what bail reform is. Bail reform in New York is this enormously successful change for justice, for fiscal responsibility, for fairness, against racism that keeps folks productive, and yet people think it's a disaster. There's no tie to violent crime, there's no tied any and stuff. And here's the the thing that's amazing about is our leader and our leaders. Governor hokel admitted it

was admitted it was success. The same week she proposed rollbacks that would put forty five more people on the path to jail. She wrote it up ed that laid out exactly what I said. It's been enormous success end because essentially of politics, because of the narrative that's out there. Bail folks need to understand, first of all, it ain't it's not a punishment, it's incentive. It's an idea. You pay money to court, you're supposed to then be out.

It's incentive to come back to court no matter what happens. At the end of the day, you pay the money back. What we know is that people come back to court overwhelmingly without bail. We know that's true, so we know it's unnecessary. In reality, though bail is a punishment, most people who have bail set can't afford to pay it and they're locked up. And what does jail do in addition to separating you from all the things bills, you know, bills piling up people in need of caretaking. What does

it do. It actually increases the likelihood that you are going to get rear sit upon release. It's actually, there's this fancy term criminogenetic. It's just basically here, here's the reality. The primary characteristics of jail in prison are the exact same as the prime drivers of violence itself, isolation, shame, economic deprivation, and violence. And so we wind up throwing a solution at a thing that actually winds up making

the thing even worse. I was someone who I was so supportive of the police, even though I have my own criticisms of the police. I view the police force as a group of men and women who buy in large are doing the job for the right reason, and that like a lot of organizations political parties in the country today, the leadership of the police department is the issue. Defund the police is just miserable. You want police, you need police, all those cliches, you hate the cops until

you need one or whatever. So I think the defund the police was a miserable narrative. It was a miserable slogan. You know, I'll say, I actually think it's too soon to say that that was a bad that was a disaster. Frankly, like it was incredible that for any period time it could have been a day, but that for a period of time, legislators and legislatures around the country, we're actually talking about divestment and reinvestment in different things outside of

the police. It's an important conversation to have, and I think the most interesting models actually are in places like Eugene, Oregon, where they have this program called Cahoots where social workers are actually sent without armed police. It isn't actually pairing

the two because here's the reality. When you have someone a mental health crisis, perhaps and I would say even offered someone who has dealt with the police before because of their mental health issues, when a police officer shows up, whether they are the most well meaning, well trained, like the perfect police officer, the one who is not going to use violence, a police officer is by their nature

they're triggering. They represent a series of really harmful consequences and solutions which include arrest, handcuffing, all the things that you described. It includes, in the best case scenario, potentially an alternative to incarceration with forced mental health treatment or

with the threat of prison. And so there's a lot of studies that look at the fact that a police officers showing up at all, even with a social worker is problematic, and Eugene Oregon, the Cohoots program shows that social workers showing up who are unarmed is enormous successful and in very rare cases do they ever have to call for backup And it doesn't lead to more violence, it actually decreases it. So when a police officer became the mayor of New York, I thought, this isn't the

best idea. I don't think that the person who's a police officer should be the mayor. What do you think about that it's becoming mayor? Oh God, is it? I'll tell you it felt like a bit like Trump becoming president, where I knew it was going to be bad, like really bad, and it's still far exceeded my expectations in badness.

I mean, days before Eric Adams officially became mayor, he announced that the first thing he was going to do that was the number one priority for him was bringing back even though it was still there, but like bringing

back and reinforcing solitary confinement on Breaker's Island. The second thing he did, actually the first thing he did as as mayor was then reject the opinions of over a majority of the city council who challenged the fact that he was going to be bringing back solitary and said, come back to me if and once you've become had the experience of being a police officer. So he cast aside the opinions of the majority of city council because

they they had not previously served as police. He has pushed for the appointment of two different people for high level positions in his administration who have deep, long backgrounds with ho A phobia. He has reinstituted a deeply violent and racist arm of the police force, which one it's supposedly set up to try to get guns off the street, but what they wind up doing is terrorized black and brown neighborhoods, making it feel like you're literally imprisoned in

your own neighborhood. And they have a long history of violence, but he reinstituted that. It's carcerealism, it's hyper policing, it's Juliani is Um all over again. And what he's done is he's jeopardized his because you have your article you say the police state is failing officers too. That was in the nation, the police state is failing officers too. I cannot more wholeheartedly endorsed that idea. And I'm not saying that a police officer can't be a good mayor.

It's it's it's essential that we get that on the air. I'm not saying that a police officer can't be a good mayor. But sure enough, he comes in there and he does what all modern day politicians do, which is he just shoves a whole bunch of money towards his friends.

He gives the police department a huge budgetary increase and seven hundreds You reported seven hundred and fifty million dollars in overtime this year, which I think you're reported was a seventy three percent increase in what was budgeted for this year, seven fifty million to overtime. The mayor of this city is somebody who needed to come in and figure out how we're going to spend less money. The city is in a financial crisis. The city has been

in a financial crisis. Its expenses are higher and its income is lower than has been since the seventies. The budgets around eleven billion dollars a year. In the wake of that, the horrible shooting in the subway station where where there was no police to be found, to where they were, they were calling nine. It was just a completely disaster. We already have police in the subways at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars every year

to fail to prevent something like that. And he then was like, we need five hundred more police in the subway or a thousand, But if policing or any other administrative agency, it would have been defunded decades ago. It's the reality. What I do know is modern day policing the way that we see it right now, it's not helping anyone Like numbers show that. I'll just say my position is this, I don't hate police. I hate that we continue to actually invest in a failed policy solution

proven over half a century. We keep thinking that it's not just investing more, but even the conversation around like training them to somehow like do better. We've tried that out. We we tried to get you know, police to have biased training, to like shoot less people and to be more careful. And the reality is modern day policing in America, by its nature and by its history is deeply racist, oppressive, and violent, and we know that it fails to prevent

crime based upon their own data. And they're sensationally so stupendously all the words bad at solving violent crime as well. What's an example of a successful campaign? So early on in COVID, we got a call from a public defender in Prince George's County, Maryland. There was one court watcher, so formally incarcerated woman who was in court filing prosecutorial

accountability letters to the state's attorney. And this incredible civil rights law firm, Civil Rights Corps, filed a powerful litigation based on sixty four sworn declarations from people inside the Prince George's County jail being held pre trial, describing, at risk of retaliation, the horrible conditions that they were facing, from no ppe to force, being forced to clean up each other's bodily fluids, awful, pay, have to pay four dollars for medical care, and the judge dismissed those sixty

four sworn declarations as quote unhelpful. And we're like, traditional advocacy ain't working. What can we do? We brought folks together, these these kind of different groups of local organizers formally incarceraty people and the folks who were currently in alongside defenders and came up with this concept. Actually, now i'm talking about it, you were involved in it, Alec. It

was exceptionally helpful. We worked with Broadway Advocacy Coalition. We couldn't get cell phone footage of inside Prince George's County jail, but we had their words. So we we in partnership with the folks on the inside, and all of these organizers conceived of this idea of kind of reconceptualizing the lawsuit altogether and in drawing out those words and breathing life into those words. And so we had a range of social justice advocates, public defenders, organizers, people with platforms

who were amazing enough to take part. You included Jesse Williams, Fiona Apple, singer songwriter, And within a week, that audience of one went to an audience of over four million. Within a week, that court Watcher of one turned into the largest watching program in the country, which continues today. Over two people volunteered to virtual court Watch to hold actors accountable. The County wound up settling the lawsuit because of the public pressure that came from this campaign for

basic truth. But one of the real, um real successes I think of this, and this is so much a part of what Zellis does around the country and what we hope to achieve are the partnerships between these key allies of defenders, civil rights lawyers, local organizers, community are stronger than they have ever been before, and the fight for so many other justice issues has grown stronger because of this kind of galvanizing moment. We listen, We're very

grateful to you for doing this. You're someone who the work you're doing to help powerless people in a world where if you don't have any power, forget about a lot of power, even a little power, you just get steam rolled. Thank you, Scott, Thank you, Scott Heckinger. My next guest. Robert Greenwald is the founder of Brave New Films, a nonprofit organization whose focus is investigative documentaries. Brave New Films has tackled subjects such as corporate corruption, war and

government secrets. But Robert Greenwald didn't start there. He began his career in theater and made for TV movies and found great success, earning two Golden Globe nominations, twenty five Emmy nominations, and a Peabody. In four Greenwald directed The Burning Bed starring Fara Fawcett, one of the most watched television movies in history. Based on a true story, it was a raw depiction of abuse that changed public awareness

and the fight against domestic violence. Greenwald then shifted to work that would continue to make a difference, and the result was brave new films. Their movies, such as out Foxed, Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism and Iraq for Sale, are available online and at free screenings. In an effort to engage the public, Greenwald has also lectured at Harvard, addressed Capitol Hill, and testified before Congress. He's a filmmaker certainly

making his mark. I asked Robert Greenwald about his background and if school was where he got his start in filmmaking. I did not. I studied history, and I studied philosophy, and I did go to the High School of Performing Arts, so way back then, I am had some connection to learning from teachers, but mainly for better or for worse.

I don't know what your experience has been It's been a kind of experiential learning on the job, making huge mistakes and hopefully learning from them, and having some unusual and varied experiences. When you were at performing arts, was it acting you had originally thought about? Was that the goal? That was the goal? And I quickly realized that I was not made to be an actor in any shape or form. So and you left performing arts to go

where where did you go to college? I went to Antioch College for two years, and then I dropped out of Antioch College, UH to work in the theater. And I also then went to the New School because way back then you had to be in school in order to avoid the draft. Now, describe some of your first experiences in the theater. Were they in New York or were they regional? Were you what kind of work were you doing originally in the theater in New York? The theater?

Originally I was a gopher. And for those of you who aren't familiar with the term, go for coffee, go for tige, go for my script, go for any of those things. And I loved every single second of it.

I worked for a wonderful director named Vannette Carrol, a woman who I had known from High School of Performing Arts and a show called Trumpets of the Lord, where I delivered the paychecks or the actually the cash to the actors, and then at intermission I sold albums from the show, and then I tore the tickets when people came into the theater at one Sheridan Square. And how long were you toiling in the theater before you decided

to go to California. I was probably in the theater and having a brutally difficult time of its surviving financially emotionally. It was probably three or four years. And then I was offered a job at the Mark Tape or Forum directing plays, and I will never forget I was offered two hundred dollars a week, which I thought was extraordinary. It provided financial security, and I went out and bought

a juice mixer at the time my first extra aus purchase. UM. But I was on top of the world, and that brought me to California, where I worked for Gordon Davidson at the Mark Tape before UM for about two years, and then transition to film and television, starting a company called Moonlight Productions because my then partner Frank von Zernik and I were literally moonlighting from the Mark Taper Forum.

When do you decide you want to start to pop the fence at the studio because apparently you talked your way onto a lot of movie sets or movie lots. Correct, How did that? I tried? Well, as many things in life, as you know, when we look back, we see things a little differently. But I did realize as I was at the Mark Taper Forum pretty quickly that I have certain skill sets. One skill that I absolutely do not

have is working for somebody. I'm a complete failure as an employee because I always had a way, my idea of how to do it or do it differently. So I realized I really needed to sort of start something on my own so I wouldn't be in constant conflict with bosses. And so Frank and I decided to start a film what we thought would be a film company.

It quickly became a television company because television was sure, you know, was much more open to people than film, which was much more elitist, if you will, having to have connections and having to have money, none of which Frank or I had money or connections. But TV wanted content, wanted ideas, I'm a voracious reader of everything, and so I was in heaven coming up with ideas for what was then known as the television movie of the week.

What's the first movie center, what's the first studio lot you pole vault into? It was Universal Studios. And what my what Frank and I would do is his little broken down car became our office and in his trunk we kept all of our scripts and projects and books and ideas, and we would get on a pay phone nearby.

Generally often there was a Howard Johnson's at Sunset. Sunset Boulevard had a lot of pay phones in the men's room by the way, and we would often be on the payphone calling the studio and saying, oh, we're on the lot, when we come see you, and then putting our hand over when someone was flushing urinal. It's a very very very high class undertaking, um. But we would say, oh,

we're right on the lot, can we come in? And then, because it was centrally located, would either go to studios on the west side or go over the hill to the valley. And Universal Studios seemed to have the least security. I was going to say, must have been a very different time, and you could get on pretty easily if you smiled and talked. So we we made a lot of progress getting on the univers A lot and ultimately

doing a ninety minute television movie. What's the first job you get, Well, they entrust you to direct the project. Your first directing gig was what first directing gig, which was Portrait of a Mistress with Trish Vanderveer, and I remember it fondly. It was a ninety minute movie and because of the economics of television, the first day of shooting literally you started in Los Angeles, flew to San Francisco, which was the location, and we're then filming at ten

or eleven o'clock that morning. What I didn't know, and subsequently I learned to be thoughtful and check was. Trish had tremendous anxieties and fears, so it was very hard for her to come out of the motor home onto the set. Yes, seriously, really really bad. So I fly to San Francisco. It's the first day, um the director and tremendous pressures. You know, I have storyboarded and sketched

out everything, and she doesn't show up. So on the first day the first shot, I had to figure out how to shoot around her and basically get coverage of other people. And then when she came on an hour or two hours later, Uh, make sure that I could that it would cut and work well. So it was a hell of a learning experience. My stomach gets into not just telling you the story, but you know, I survived.

This is a woman that was married to Georgey Scott. Absolutely, yes, and he was quite a presence at times when he would come around. Now, yeah, so you direct that movie. What did you take away from that? You were hungry for more? You wanted to direct more? Yes, And unfortunately or fortunately, I've always loved telling stories. I'm not a writer, and my interest in my skill set is in directing films. So I wanted to do more and it was a time when it was easier to get there's a process

for those folks not in the industry. Well, you have to get approved by the network that is the financier. So I've been approved as the director I don't know how on that first film, and that allowed me to do more television movies which I directed, and then within a few years went on to do one of the most successful television movies, which was The Burning Bag with Fara Fawce, And that was a real change in the sense that then I was offered tons of movies to

direct success film. Yeah, let's let's talk about that. Insofar as you've done a handful of films between the first one and when you've worked with Sara, had you done a few films, what was it like for you to work with her in terms of getting the performance you wanted? And of course she gave a wonderful performance in the film. Most people recognize that. It's interesting because in essence, she hired me. She was attached to that film before I was.

Then I was approached by the producers John Evan and Steve Tish and they said, you know, here's this project. And what they didn't tell me is tons of directors had turned it down already. But fortunately, because of my theater background, I had seen Farat off Broadway in extremities and she was very good, and I felt there's something here. And the other thing, and you know this about stars is they have a pretty most of them have a

pretty good sense of what they can do. And so I met with Farah and I felt there was a real commitment to wanting to do this story. I talked to her about I would want several weeks of rehearsal. I would want to go with her to various shelters for abused women and interviewed the women. And she was

signed up for all of it. And then I think I said this even before filming or rehearsal, I said, and I don't want you surrounded by hair and make up people after every take, tweaking and touching, and I want you to be able to kill the momentum, killing

the momentum, killing the truth. And she was not a trained actor, so she needed the emotion and because she didn't have the technique to recreate And in fact, one of the best scenes in the movie when she's on the witness stand and I just did it out of instinct, was I kept rolling Rather than saying cut and start over again, I said go again, go again. And I wouldn't let them cut, and I wouldn't let anybody come on the set. And it ultimately led to us, I

think a strong and truthful moment. Was she grateful to you in the end? Do you think that you guys had accomplished something together? Yeah, she was very appreciative. And then when the film aired and it got you know, more people watched it and watched the presidential debates and got all kinds of awards, and and it also in a way moved me towards where I ultimately wound up because the social impact part of it, I mean, we

were getting notes from legislators, laws were getting changed. It was really quite something, and the realization of the power of storytelling to reach people and affect lives of many people throughout the country. Up until then, sort of domestic abuse was looked at as women complaining, and the police didn't take it seriously, and legislaators didn't take it seriously. So she and I and John and Steve all felt quite a bit of pride in being able to do that.

Most people assume that the ultimate goal to make films to make feature films, and although that thinking that films are automatically better than television, as he wrote it, substantially in the last twenty years, obviously, and some of the best acting and some of the best directings being done in streaming TV and even a network TV and movies are not necessarily the Shangla law that people have always thought it was you know, but nonetheless you decide you

want to get into the feature film business. How did that start? What was the first feature you shot? Maybe it was that I do right? And whose idea was that? Not mine? No, no, I know what. Listen, we all have our It was Larry Gordon and Joel Silver hired me and Olivia I think now they didn't have Olivia yet. It was Larry and Joe huired me. Um, and I thought it was would be fun. I love musicals. My uncle is Michael Kidd, director and choreographer, so I grew

up watching him work. Um and I decided, I don't know that I decided so much to do features, but I thought this was an interesting project. And um, so I went into the lions den of a big studio movie and um, I emerged barely standing right right. I'm told that nine eleven. I want you to clarify this for me was what helped to build the next bridge for you, which was to basically give up making entertainment films and in for theater or television and go into

the business here and now? Is that accurately? That was the timeline around nine eleven and what happened, Yes, in fact, it was. It's actually very accurate and very specific. So a couple of things all came together. One of them most it was nine eleven, and as you've i'm sure experienced, it was tremendous payen and tremendous fear. But our grief as a country, as a people so quickly shifted from

grief and pain to rage and revenge. I found it, frankly, quite terrifying, and particularly terrifying because of my four children, who affect so many of the decisions that I've made in my life that I make in my life now, and I felt a strong sense of what, if anything, could I do. And around the same time, my father died and like all parents, like myself as a parent,

uh not perfect as a parent. And I remember very specifically waiting to get up and speak in our living room where we had a little memorial for him, and I'm thinking, what am I going to say? That's not bullshit, but that is real. And it really hit me that one of the wonderful things he passed on to me was this notion that you gain by doing something above and beyond your own narrow financial interests, assuming you're fortunate and comfortable enough, which I was, and so at that

moment it all kind of came together. I didn't know that I was going to start a company, that I was going to make all these documentaries, but I did know I wanted to do something as difficult as it was and it is, that would have impacts in a way above and beyond somebody walking out of a movie theater and saying, oh, that was fun or not fun.

For ven I was doing a play out on Long Island, and it was the first year that Bay Street Theater and sag Harbor had decided to extend their season beyond the normal summer months and the summer crowd and go into the month of September, and we were going to run through the month of September for two or three weeks. On our first invited dress was nine eleven itself, and we canceled that performance. We all said that we were not in any emotional condition to go and do that.

Then the next day was our first ticketed preview, and the theater was small, and when you left the theater from the dressing rooms, you had to pass through the lobby and a handful of people would wait for us and with tremendous sadness in their face. They would say, thank you so much for giving us something, for coming here and doing this and giving us something to take our minds off this horrible event, because it was so immersive, you know, you just couldn't get away from it for

months and months. I had a woman who lived in my building who was Jewish, and she turned to me and she said, now New York is like Israel. I'll never forget. She said that, like, like we were gonna have to live now in a condition of fear and then a defensive posture on a kind of constant level. Now the United States was no longer invulnerable to this kind of thing. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, I gotta get out of here. I thought I got to move out of New York, and I was really

really terrified. I didn't really think much about changing my career, but you do change your career. And were your politics fairly conquetized, and you were fairly kind of inclined where you were going to go once you started making a different kind of programming, once you your company, Brave New Films comes into being, and you're going to make a

different kind of content. Did you know where you were headed because you've already been dabbling in that politically, well, I knew that some of the most satisfying experiences when I've been in the commercial for profit world had been true stories based on things like the burning bed and a bunch of others, children being locked up in prison, unemployment, inequality, the whole series of things that those are the ones

that gave me the greatest satisfaction. So I wanted to do something that would be hopefully meaningful, and it also where I could be challenged and use whatever skills I have to the best of my ability and most you know, A key piece of it was by this point, because I've been very successful in commercial television, I had enough money so that if I was careful and if I was thoughtful, I wouldn't have to pay myself a salary.

And that was a big, big deal because you know, the hardest part of my job when I started and to this day, is fundraising. I'm lousy at it. It's difficult. If I had to raise money to pay myself, I

don't think I could ever do it. But fortunately, because of those circumstances and for fifteen or sixteen years now, I've I've been able to be a full time volunteer running Brave New Films and raising money for the staff that of course needs to be paid, and I did um the general approach to around equality in civil rights

and national security were all there. I think the work that I've done and the amazing people I've met, whether it was when I flew to Pakistan and interviewed drone survivors, or when I went to Afghanistan and interviewed women there, or people who you know, taking on the n r A around the country, or voter suppression. I mean, just it's so extraordinary the people you come in contact with, and you're able to have a connection at a much deeper level than a you know, a cocktail party or

a casual acquaintance. Now when you start, because I'm assuming now if nine eleven is you know, kind of the benchmark there. So you've been doing this for twenty years roughly Brave New Films. In the beginning, were there people you knew you wanted to reach out and you were going to form a staff or the beginnings of a staff with people you had worked with previously. Is that you and a couple of young people around your kitchen table. What is Brave New Films Day one? There was no

Brave New Films day one. It was the furthest thing from my mind. What I thought was I wanted to make a movie about the Iraq War and that we were not being told the truth. And I thought, well, let's let's try to do it. So I found one or two other people many I mean the people around me at the time, as you know, the agents and the lawyers or whatever, tried to talk me out of it because there was no money and they defined themselves

by money. My brother way back when, gave me a wonderful little book called Wealth Addiction, and it talks about people addicted to making money above and beyond what they need, and it almost becomes an addiction. What is an addiction? Never enough? Always thinking about getting more? And it, you know,

it really stayed with me. So when I made this decision to try to do a documentary about the the lies and the distortions around the Iraq War, I just reached out to essentially a version of what you're saying. A couple of folks who hired an editor, and I hired a researcher, and we began and that was the start. And then when we finished the film, um, so I hadn't really thought about this. How are we going to

get people to see it? Right? So we had an alliance with one of the local radio stations, and I remember this so well, and they booked the Lumley Theater in Cinea, Monica. And I remember going to the opening the one opening night, the only night, driving in the car on I think it's Second Street on the way to the theater, and there's a line around the block.

And I turned to my wife and my daughters and say, oh, ship, somebody's having a premiere tonight and it's gonna get all the attention and we won't even be able to get into the theater. Well, it turned out it was the line to see they are ac film because it was such hunger. And then afterwards people came up to me and it wasn't then you've had this experience just oh it was a good film. It was thank you for making that movie and telling that story. And that was heroin.

I mean, that got me, That got me hooked. Filmmaker and activist Robert Greenwald, if you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it to yourself, tell a friend and follow Here's the Thing on the I Heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back. I talked with Robert Greenwald about how The Burning Bed and nine eleven led him to bring his storytelling skills to another platform. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing.

Since Brave New Films founding in two thousand four, Robert Greenwald has made numerous films with a strong political message. I wanted to know what frustrates him about politics in our country today. Well, I feel a mixture. There's a part of me that, despite it all, and despite being a New Yorker, in my heart and soul, I am optimistic. On the other hand, we've been working on voters suppression. Started. We did a film the help of many folks about

voter suppression in Georgia. We had two thousand and twenty free screenings before the two thousand and twenty elections. Uh, and it continues. We're working on a new version of it now suppressed and sabotaged. And Alex I tell you, at times I don't believe I'm in this country. I mean, this breaks my heart. Honestly, the number of people who died, who died fighting for voting rights, and here we are again, and the fact that some elected officials can justify what

they're doing around suppressing, around sabotaging. It's breaking my heart to hear these stories all over the country of legislation being passed, people being intimidated, people being bullied. And I feel at times like I'm either in another country or in another time period. And I see that and as kind of an overlay of so many of the problems

and challenges. If elected officials with a straight face can get up there and say no, you should not have dropboxes, No you should not have vote by mail, it baffles me how they can live with themselves. You have quite a range of topics you've covered with Brave New films from two thousand four in the War on Iraq, out Foxed, Rubert Murdock's War on Journalism, documentaries about Walmart war profiteering in Iraq, Rethinking Afghanistan in two thousand nine. What are

you working on now? Do you have something that can you discuss that? Yeah, it's going to be called suppressed and sabotage two And the goal is to have it done in the spring we put together you know, again, we do two things right. We make the content and as important, maybe even more important, is the distribution, because there's no point doing what we do if people aren't

seeing it and if there isn't an impact. So we have study guides, we have actions that we ask people to do, and so if you have thousands of free screenings, it's hundreds of thousands of people being reached, some of whom are then going to be moved to do something about it. So right now we're heavily focused on the suppressed and sabotage. We were interviewing people around the country. If any of your listeners have stories of suppression, they can contact me Robert at Brave New Films dot org.

We're looking for more stories. We have some experts, and I think that's going to be as important, you know, because it's big picture stuff and the common thread out like and not that we're always successful with all of the films is I try to do two things. I try number one, to put a face on policy, because that's what film can do that books don't do and studies don't do, and think tanks don't do. We humanize it and then we try to connect the dots so

that people understand it's systemic. Walmart was not about a bad boss. It was about a system of greed based on a certain kind of capitalist where anything is okay. Similarly with the Drone movie, if we stopped using drones today, there's still would be issues around the military industrial complex. So I try very hard, and it's and you don't want to preach to people. You don't want to do

spinach or homework. So how do you tell those stories that are deeply personal, that exposed the systemic workings and that people want to see and energize them rather than have them wanting to slit their wrists. We're really for a small group of putting more time and energy into reaching people. Because how do we take a clip and how do you change it so it will reach a hundred thousand people on TikTok and how do you change it so it will reach two hundred thousand on YouTube?

So our job is to reach the different audiences in different ways that they consume the material, not to change it, but to reformat. Yes, well, I'm proud to know you. I'm proud to know you. Thank you very much for coming on with us, and thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Okay, thanks be well. My thanks to Robert Greenwald and Scott Heckinger. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios and produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice,

and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio