I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Thank you. As you can see, I'm moving very gingerly because I I'm an orthopedic disaster here. Literally tomorrow morning, I'm going to go to n y U and have hip replacement surgery tomorrow morning. No, no, no, I'm not saying that for sympathy, but I wanted to say that.
I wanted to say. It occurred to me that if I don't for any reason, if I don't survive the surgery, if I don't make it out of this surgery, then this interview tonight will be my last interview for Here's the Thing. And I kind of thought about the night, thought, if this is gonna be my last interview, who do I want it to be with? Who would be the last? Is it Michelle Obama? Or is it to Taylor Swift? Is it? Uh? You know? Who is it in the firmament there that I want to interview? And there was
only one name I could come up with. If I had to do my last interview, it would be with our guests, and I please welcome author Michael Wolfe. So um, I want to begin by saying that those are some very nice shoes you have on. They look like new shoes to me. Have you been doing a lot of shopping lately. I've always done a lot of shopping. So before we get into the obvious subject, which you are certainly have talked to death, I'm very grateful to you
being here. But I'm always interested in people's origins in terms of their career, and I was wondering if you could talk first about where you grew up. And you grew up in Patterson. I was born in Patterson and grew up on a on a somewhat whiter hill as rising out of Patterson, um and um um, and then came to New York. He was in the advertising business. My mother was a newspaper reporter, so there was some journalistic DNA in that household. Oh totally. Who did your
mother write for Paterson Evening News daily newspaper. The political bent in the household was what, if anything, we were Democrats. My father was sort of a back room New Jersey politico. He was never indicted. Though. That's a short list. It's uh and and uh. When you finished school, you went to college at started at vaster Llege um and then I came and then I got a job at the New York Times and moved to New York and went to Columbia to the journalism school. No, it's an unfinished
I get. I was a junior when I transferred to Columbia History. And you were at the New York Times for how long? And what was that experience like for you? It was a horrible experience. Um, it was one of those things. You know, this is the only thing I ever wanted to do was was to go to the New York Times. And um, so I got a job. I was twenty. I think it was a copy boy and I walked in and I think literally in ten minutes, I knew that if this was life, I was not
going to make it. Why it just everyone seems so depressed, seemed there and and and there was something about the New York Times that it's on these copy desks was very gray and in an era it was filled with smoke. And also everybody had a tick a literally yea. Um, so it explains a lot. Actually I've been so that was so I was there for about about a year. Um. And then basically when there had a job since well, did you did you sense early on you were what age when you were at the Times? How long we
got the Times? Twenty? About a year? She were just there for a year. And did you sense early on that the a that you wanted to be a writer? Did you know you wanted to be a writer. Yes, I mean there was no sort of no question of, no questions, and you knew what you wanted to write or you weren't sure fiction nonfiction? You wanted to write non fiction. I know I wanted to write fiction, but you wanted to write fiction. Yes, some people would say that you have written fiction. The truth is I can't
write fiction, so it must not be. But but but you wanted to write fiction. What happened? No one was buying your no no stories. No worse than that they bought So I wrote it. I wrote a first book. Um. Um, when I was twenty five, I wrote I wrote a book and it was non fiction, but it felt like fiction. I mean I sort of come out of what used to be called the new journalism and um, and it was really right in writing using fictional techniques to write
about real things. Um. But that was a moment and say in the in the in which they sort of said, okay, you did that. That's good. But now you can do what real writers do. You'll write a novel. They gave me a big advance to do this, and and I moved for your first book. This was my second book. So my first book was this was a new journalism book called White Kids, um um, which I I think it was years. Why were they giving out big advances then for you if you weren't you weren't an established writer,
Hall I did. I mean, I wrote this book and it was quite success. I mean I got a little little notoriety in anyway. Um. And then so they gave me an advance to write this novel. I thought, great, I'm going to be a novelist. I moved to Europe. I moved to Rome. Um. I thought, I saw the whole thing, um, the whole life in front of me. Um and and I sat down at a at a typewriter then and um um and I began to write the first page of this book over and over and
over and over again. I mean, this was bad. This went on for six years of um. It's like the shining But in Rome, my very promising career just seeped away every day until there was no career left. At some point, I would I would mention, I guess you realized you didn't want to work for somebody else when you decided to write books. By this point, no one, no one would hire me, so I was it was not really a question yes on your own. I had
a friend from college. This was the eighties so, and he had made a lot of money on Wall Street and started his own firm. And as I'm still trying to write this book, he said to me, listen, you've become an embarrassment to everyone who has ever known you. Come downtown. I'll give you an office and we'll do deals. I had never even heard. I didn't even know there was such a thing. Um, but I was so grateful.
I just immediately put it down and bought a suit, went downtown, and suddenly we were sort of doing deals. This was give us an example of one deal you did. I'm intrigued. What was the deal that was done? Well, we started to invest in He said, you know about media, and well, let's we'll we'll put money into media companies. UM. Now, I had no idea anything about media, and never even you know, other than the fact that I had written a book. UM worked at a newspaper. That's what I
knew about the media. But it was like, whatever interests you will do it. I looked around and I said the National Lampoon magazine. Um, it had peaked and then it had gone down. And I thought, but it was a public company. We could potentially take over this thing, and UM, you know, I could buy myself a job. Did he listen to you, Yes, yes, we brought the magazine. Yeah, we we UM invested in this, made you know, and
then somebody else came along. This was the eighties, So you invest in this, and somebody else came along, UM and invested more, bought it, UM, and we made a ton of money. He said, to see, it's easy. We're doing deals and and then so you're a novelist and you're in Rome, and then you come back and you're doing deals with this gentleman. And after that is that when you get into the magazine business. And when I
got into the internet business. So that it was UM there was a series of steps here and and UM, so I I found myself running this UM this a small publishing company which started to publish books about the Internet. And I get this, we're publishing books about the Internet, UM and UM and they were they were like they they flew off the shelf. This was like, I'm one of those those moments in which um um, in which people had heard about the internet, but they had no
idea where the internet was. Um UM. So we had this office and we put them sort of put a phone number in the book and then people would call up and they would say, is this the internet? Um? And so this this went on, and then this went on for for um. This kind of rolled into you know, somebody then came along and gave me an enormous amount of money um um to actually be in the be
in the technology business, something I knew absolutely nothing about. Um. And this seems to be a pattern with you that there seems to be a pattern with you that fools just come spilling into your life and throw themselves in your arms, whether it's with their personal uh, insights and confessions and what have you, or bags of money. They just give you bags of money and and actually and then I write a book about them. So so I
wrote a book called burn Rate. This was in you know, one of the sort of first books about about the about the internet and um and it was a sort of act of very conscious revenge against all of the people who had given any money. And then I had lost their money and they had yelled at me. So is that how you revenge? I thought, yes, I thought, what can I do? I have to get even with these people? What can I do? I can write? But
they made you feel bad. They yes, it was more um in those moments when you're when you're when you take you you have this money, you've taken money, and and against a against what nobody knows why why you've gotten this money, but everybody is hoping that it will it will. You know you're gonna that this is gonna work. Um, And then you reach a point where you sort of sort of clear that it's not gonna work. And so I had this big office in New York, hundreds of people.
You couldn't stop the people from being hired. You would peek out your door and you would see somebody bringing in new desks, and people would follow. The investor began to get worried, and he kind of moved in or had his people move into this office. Then he was there, and you would come in in the morning and everybody would try to be civil to each other. Um. And that would last, you know, that would last about twenty minutes.
And then you then you could see the faces distort and then somebody would say blah blah, and then and then that would immediately become become fuck you, and then it would become no fuck you. Um and you would do this thing and it was just this anger built until, of course then you ran out of money. At least they let it out, unlike the times where they kept it into They had these ticks all the time come
holding it in. You know, they wouldn't. They wanted to say funk you to each other probably every twenty minutes too, but they can't do that at the time, so they you know. But then I was I was, I was thrown out of this this company and um um. There there was actually one point in this because this was
a remarkable time that I had gone out. We were going to do a deal, um and we had flown out to too, to the West coast to buy the to buy this other company, or they are going to buy us, or I can't even remember, but I do know that all coming back the entire first class, I was paying for every seat in first class, and it was filled with I wasn't paying, but the money that somehow was flowing through me um um. It was filled with my bankers and lawyers, and my lead bankers were
coming back on the red eye. UM leaned over and said, you you know you're um um, You're worth You're worth a hundred million dollars. Um and um um. And he had we had gone to college together, and he said, I want you to buy a UM fund building at
the at the school. Um and uh. And then we talked about what the what the name of the building was going to be the Wolf Center for this and and the doing deals and I got I got home and um um and then for um forever after My children now will remember Remember Remember you were standing there when we were worth a hundred million dollars. Remember how you acted? Remember this? And then a brief yes that
lasted about two weeks. Now to say that, because eventually you when you do the New York magazine meeting a column, I want to get to you know, your your terminology for that. But as you're arriving at the place, the conversation about the Wolf Center, your moment in the sun where you're worth a hundred million dollars is around what year would you say, uh, nineteen uh nineties seven? That way, right around when you started. Soon after you got to work with New York correct. Yeah, so I got it.
How does that happen? Well, I was thrown out of this company and then I wrote this book. I didn't know what to what. And then it was so I had not been writing for a certain rate the past ten years. I had thought, I can't do this anymore. Gone not a possibility, um, that I can be a writer. But I was thrown out of this company, and um, I was what am I gonna do? But I thought revenge? Um um. And you know how revenge is best served in a book, it turns out, and I wrote this.
I wrote this book. I wrote it very quickly and um, and it was incredibly satisfying and it worked, and I thought, hey, I'm pretty good at this, um and um. And then not long after the book came out in New York magazine called me up and said, you want to write a column about the media? Um? And again I was
like media, What do I know about media? But but I guess in terms of it, you as a writer, the person who started out wanting to write uh fiction and so forth, And when you arrived on the doorstep of the New York magazine to write the media column, who would you become by them? Like? What was your I don't want to say agenda, but what was your appetite? Then?
What did you want to write about? What? I just wanted to You wanted revenge, as you had kind of a scorched earth mentality tour anyone you didn't care for. I found that I had a distinct ability to write about people's weaknesses. I think that's probably it would you what would you call? I found it incredibly interesting? Oh there is you know that person is flawed in the following way? Powerful people? Yeah, powerful people or or totally ordinary people. Was it more satisfying for you to powerful
as the hatchet job of the common man? I could do that too, Um, But which was more satisfied? Well? Um, it didn't make any difference to whoever was whatever, the mighty and the lowly. You're like, boom boom, you didn't care. Yes, you're just giving them the curb, you know. I think, I mean ultimately was somewhat more commercial to to do this for a powerful people. Now when you so, what was would you say? I don't want to put any
words anybody's map. What term would you use? I was going to say, by the way, if Trump wanted to really increase his chances for this water, you would I have is probably poisoned right now. So but here's looking at you. Um the uh what would you say? Was the gim? Is it a gossip column? You're writing a gossip column for you know? Um? Would you know? I mean, I mean, I think a gossip column is one thing.
This was a what is a gossip column? Um? What's the difference what you wrote for the New York and what Richard Johnson does for paid six? What's the difference? I'm mine are literate and his are illiterate. I can't argue with you there. I mean that's what I was interested. I was actually really interested in just writing. Just give me. I'm not interested. I was not even My subjects were were secondary to the to the fact that I could I could hang a story on these subjects I could.
I'm I was interested in human nature, in success, failure, drama. Yeah. Um, And did you see you other than you're talking about the revenge factor in the burn rate experience? You come into this and suddenly you mean for people who don't know the media or pieces that he wrote for the New York magazine were very important. I mean it was like people were just writhing and and convulsing and you know, breaking into a cold sweat and vomiting in their office
bathroom for fear of being written about by you. And am I getting that wrong? You pressed a lot of buttons in this town for a while. How many years did you do the piece? Six years? And then I went to Vanity Fair and carried on with something similar. And how long was it a Vanity Fair? Four or five years? I think it's over a decade. It's a decade if you covery this beat, if you will. And I'm wondering you go in that one end of that and uh, I mean, I'm not gonna say it's a
gossip column, but other people will certainly. Have you come in one end of that and you came out the other end, how did that change you? I mean other than probably you had somebody make sure nobody was gonna punch you in the face when you walked out of walked into the Four Seasons restaurant. Did anybody ever try to get you in any way threaten you sault show. But they but they intended to move tables and restaurants. Literally you had your table table five at Michael's and
so forth. And did you feel that people were uh concerned about you? I I felt that there are people who intensely disliked me. You didn't care. No, you thought the benefits of writing the calm outweigh the I mean, I can't tell the pleasures of writing this column were. Um. I mean, I've never been I mean, it is the happiest job I can possibly in a fine Did you ever write any I forgot I totally blank out. I mean, I have a good memory. Did you ever have write
anything really shitty about me? Do you remember? It's? Okay? Go ahead? Well now that's the other other other thing is that I can never remember who I wrote this stuff about. You are going to It's like an edge of sketch and you just shake it when you're done. Right, God, your memory, You're like, okay, God. You would meet Today's Wednesday.
You would meet people at at at parties and um, and you would saying, oh god, him, you're really glad to meet you, really admired you, and they would look at you like me like I'm a crazy person, because it turned out it was, and I had written then some horrible thing about them, which I had literally no memory. I love that. There'll be a great scene in a movie where you're there and you're this powerful columnist and
you need an assistant behind you going. You called him a douche last month, he said he was a ginormous douche, and you're like, did I, Oh god, him, I don't remember that at all. No. Now, now I get you know, when people have been sort of cold to me and this, I go and I search it Michael Wolfe, the following person, and and then I you often find ever written ah yes, and then when you come out of that, I got um a kind of thrown out of New York Magazine
because I tried to buy it. Um doing deals again. Yeah, so New York Magazine, it's it's it's owners put it up for sale, and I thought, why not? Um um so I um, you know, I I pulled together a bunch of more billionaires. Yeah, this New York part. I mean, these are these guys that was like, oh my god, um um and um don't you love New York? I pulled together a bunch of billionaires, so you just had to call them up another toy for them to play
um and um in matter of fact. And they were so so um um, kind of kind of enthralled with knowing each other that they missed the fact that another billionaire, Um Wasserstein, came along and and bought it out from under us. So I had to leave. Then it turned out it was like oh oh oh um, So I left and then went to Vanity Fair. What was the difference between the two other than the weekly? That that
was a fundamental difference. Yeah, yeah, and and you were just you know, so Vanity Fair you essentially had to write two months in advance, so it was very hard to be that. I mean, Vanity Fair was was um. Did you enjoy the difference? I preferred the weekly? Yeah? What was the piece that you were particularly proud of for Vanity Fair? Profile you did that you were pleased with? Name?
You know, name one that you enjoyed writing, you know, you know, because it candle would be about two months of disinventing your spleed right and began to be revenge. And did you write one about somebody you admired and liked? Well, well, here, you know, I had written. I had written many pieces about the head of Disney, Michael Eisener. Um. This was a man who really no one liked ever, apparently in his entire life. UM. And I had written these these
pieces and then and then he UM. He got to a particularly perilous point in his um, in his tenure as the CEO of of Disney, and he was on the verge of being thrown out. And Barry Diller called me up and said, I would like you to go and see um, see Michael Eisner and and do a piece about him. Everyone is now writing terrible things, so I know that you'll have to write the opposite of that. UM.
And I thought, I wonder if that's that's true. So anyway, so I went to see Michael Eisner, which was embarrassing because I had written these these things. UM, I thought this guy is great, so I wrote it. I wrote a very you pretend that he was great. Because Barry Dealer asked you too, I found you found the greatness in this. This went in and I thought, it is true. Everyone is saying you're terrible, So therefore I have to look at this in another way. And it turns out
when I look at it through that lens. Oh my god, I love this guy. Did that launch a del uge of positive pieces on you. Did you have a complete change of heart? No, are you like Ebenezer Scrooge? After the visitations and you're like, God, I love this guy, that guy and that guy. It was a one time experience.
My conversation continues after the break out of the New York for many years, and I've been posting events and cutting ribbons amazing money for charities and the auctioneer for this and I've been, you know, meandering around my quadrant of New York society, if you will, most to the arts related. And as I've mentioned that, people you know Trump is someone who was as an absentee. He's a
drive by figure in New York society. He had come tuxedo on the wife, who's lovely, by the way, is in the gown, it's red carpet, it's photo photo photo. But he's never a tablemate. You're never sitting down and shooting the fat with Trump and getting to know him or learn about him. He never goes to the event. He's in photo up gone. It's a drive by reality. So when people said to me, did you have a meet him. I said, I met him, but I never got to know him. What was your contact with him
from the New York Magazine days VF days? What was that like? He used to call me up at New York Magazine. Um, and I have no idea why. I was the media columnist, and he was as interested in the media as I was, as anyone was. So I got the calls. Now, the calls were not really about the media. They were about either something that had been said about him in the magazine or more more likely, something that had not been said. But he wanted says, yes,
why wasn't he in this? And why wasn't Then he would he would rail and and and and vamp and did he call and pretend to be his own publicist ever? Where you? No, No, he was very you know that story, right? Yeah he was. He was straightforward, um and um and and we we were sort of friends. I mean, why there's no reason not to be not to be friendly? Um. Because he would also heap enormous amount of flattery on
on on you you're the best. He's a backslapper, and he cajoles people, and he and he says everything he needs to kind of enlist people in his cause he's very warm. Yeah, he actually says much more than he needs to say. He just piles it shovels shovel right. I mentioned this to you backstage. I'm not sand backing here. I said, the book seems in not in in terms
of your writing and the thinking. But like when I first saw the book and it came to me, I was stunned because I said, this looks like a book that would be in a prop in a movie. It looks like something the prop department ran off really quickly. Like in the movie a guy named Michael Wolfe has written a book about Trump called Fire. It just looks like a really cheap Yeah, I told you her, Nry Holt. Then they whipped this thing off. They had this book. They knew you were a hot property to do this
thing was just smoking. And what happened and they said, who cares what the cover is, get it out. It used to be on the first the first printing. It was actually even embossed um. And then they decided I was screw that. Let's just get him out there. I mean, I have said people will say to me, I don't want to be overly self referential here. But when I do this trump stick on TV, people say to me, what do you do? And literally the three beats of
what I do are embodied in this photograph. I tell people left, eyebrow up, right, eyebrow down, and stick your mouth out, that you're trying to suck the windshield out of a car. It's just And I said, that's it. There's the photo that it this is it? This picture? I swear that's me actually. So so you know him in the way that you know a lot of the powerful and the and the movers and shakers of two
one to life. And when his when his political career, uh starts to take off, does your relationship with him change? I mean, I mean I didn't really have that kind of relationship with him. It was just passing if he saw me in a crowd. You know. It's a guy you know, you know he looks when whenever he's out in at night or at a party. Um, it's it's always he's looking for someone he knows, I mean, he has to connect with, and that's what it is. He's
looking for recognition, um. And he's looking for other other people who he thinks are worthy of him. So I'm I would be like a like the in between lean person that he would get onto until he saw somebody else and then it was UM. And that's so that was that was completely it. So nothing, no, no hostility in this relationship at all. And when so in two thousand in June two thousand and sixteen, I did a piece, you know, so he had essentially vanquished all of the
other Republicans. He was going to be the nominee. I mean, he was not going to be president in any logic that existed anywhere, but he was going to be the nominee. And I went out to do a UM to do an interview with him for the Hollywood Reporter. UM. I went out because I went out to l a he was doing the UM I think he was doing the Fallon show UM, and so I was supposed to meet
him there in the green room. And then it was like, so I come in and it and it was a perfect Trump moment of of of the kind of flattery that actually is kind of really works. I mean I walked into the door and he's like, oh my god, Michael Wolfe, UM, they really send the big guns. UM. And then one of his aids actually Hope Picks comes in and says, you, Mr Trump, you have you have forty five minutes, and he goes, forty five minutes. You don't give Michael will forty five minutes. UM. And then
he says UM. And he says, Okay, I gotta do the show. Come over to my house in Beverly Hills afterwards and we'll sit around. UM. And at first I thought, my god, he is a house in Beverly Hill. So it turns out, Um, he has a house in Beverly Hills. UM, right on the corner of Sunset and Rodeo, this huge place. I meet him there and he, you know, takes me to the refrigerator and it's filled with pints of Hogandah's
ice cream. It's all the whole thing. He takes out too and throws me one, and he takes on one and there we sit on the couch with the with the ice cream and and it doesn't and it's did you like ice cream or did you know lose the sacrifice you were making for your career? Um? And I sort of put it there. And then he goes UM to Jared Kushner, and Jared Kushner comes over and has to pick up the ice and my ice cream. Yeah,
it's all becoming clear to me now now. But what I want to ask you is, is that is that you know, there's been abundant criticisms of Trump in terms of his demeanor and his behavior and his he's an emotional mass, he's in over his head. You know, we've heard a lot of that for a while. But I had not heard the assertion that Trump was betting against himself and thought he would lose the election but nonetheless win if by losing the election he would ultimately gain
some another oxygen tank for his media career. When did that first come to your knowledge? Well, it was you know, so I went into the White House shortly after January, and yeah, and I was just sort of began a series of conversations to to no real point, um with with the people around Trump, I mean, with with his senior staff. And I was kind of under the protections
I suppose of Steve Bannon, um um. And did Bannon arranged and broker your admission into the basically I mean everyone Kelly and Conway, I mean everyone in Trump himself. You know, I had asked during the transition, I had approached I went to Trump and I said, I'd like to come in as an observer. And he thought I was asking for a job. He had no idea what the jobs were in the in the White House, and
I guess deputy assistant observer was a was a potential job. Um. And I said, no, I want to write a book, Michael, you might number one observer, top observer anyway. And I said, no, no, I want to I want to write a book. And you could just see him deflated. The idea of a book was so boring to him, um um. But he said, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever, um um. And I went back to Steve Bannon and I said, and I said, he says, um, this is what he said, whatever, And he says whatever is good.
And so that sort of became the fuel on or the basis on which that I was. I I became sort of part of this group in the White House, and they would talk to me, you know, you know in ways that that began to change over over the over the course of when I was there. First that was kind of raw raw um, and then it was ra rab but you know, with with their with their eyes eyebrows going up, and then it was raw rab
with a gun to their head. Um. You mentioned in the book that a turning point is when he talks about Obama wire tapping them, and that that was a big turning point for the morale inside the West Wing. And then they began to and then actually these people really began to talk in you know, try to understand
how it was that they got here. And then the whole anomally of this, of this situation, including the fact that they weren't supposed to be there, that all of this was that they all would have been better off in some way not winning, and they all had kind
of planned not to win. And in fact, everything that's going on now, the whole Russian investigation, the money laundering, all of this is really really the f foundation here is that you know, and I compared it to the producers that you know, they go in and you know, and and the the act of winning, like the act of a hit show, means that they're comes in a
disaster exposed. You know, they're crux um. And that's the sense someone without obviously violating your your confidences and everything of your sources or whatever, but someone actually said that to you, that that was it more than one person, more than one piety people. Yes, I mean I think there's there was literally nobody who expected this to happen. I mean, and I mean they felt the same way. I mean, they read the New York Times like everybody else.
It's like, this is not going to happen. Um, um. And you know, at least of all, you know it was he was the one who who I mean, he was the one most of all who was surprised by this outcome. But Bannon, from what I read in your book, he believed he saw that late shifting wind the night of even even day, in days in advance, what's the call me emails things, puts the big bullet in her and blow us a big hole rather a torpedo in her side. Bannon begins to see that there, maybe, just
maybe there's a slim chance. I went to Bannon took over the campaign on August fifteen, UM, two thousand and sixteen. And Um. I went up a week later to see him in Trump Tower, UM. And we sat down and he said he's gonna win. Um, We're going to do this. The path to victory is Florida, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Now, I mean I've spent I've been around politicians before and they always say this kind of stuff UM, and I and I thought, yeah, yeah, sure, and I didn't even
write this um. But it turned out obviously to be absolutely true. And what do you credit Bannon, who we've obviously been uh compelled to study his past and his CV and everything in Hollywood and Goldman Sacks and his Navy career and stuff. Then he's got no political experience prior to this, what do you attribute him his political acumen? Because when you think about it, he was right. I mean, he he he really saw if they were going to have a shot, they had to kind of split the
arrow here in those four states, and they did. In your time speaking with him, what impressions did you get about him? Well, at first, I mean would share them with us, all positive impressions. I mean, I mean, Bannon is a is a UM is smart, insightful UM. And his conversation as you, I mean, when he starts, you really don't want him to stop, and he doesn't stop,
so it's um um. Yeah. But he had an insight, and the insight was about white working class people lan um jipped and screwed and and and and everything that we've sort of come to understand was under this underground anger. Um, and Bannon was on top of it. Yeah. So Bannon is if I get this correctly, he's the one person who isn't surprised. May maybe he's mild surprised or uh, intoxicated, whatever you want to say, that they won. But but he really was a believer. He believed there was a chance.
He believed this movement could happen and it could elect the president he was At the same time, Um, I I think it was astounding to him that the president that that was going to be elected was Donald Trump. Does Bannon come and he's ready to govern? Because I mean, there are some really really troublesome and malignant policies that are being carried forth by this administration. Who's who's in charge of that? Who's because Trump's not a policy is bat was banned in charge? Well began it was no
one was in charge. I mean, I mean and and I mean the the the singular issue here is that is that you know, you brought into this into this White House people who had no no connection to to each other and establishally Washington. Actually it was even more they wanted to kill each other literally within within weeks. So you had you had Kushner and and Ivanka, who were New York Democrats. Um, you had bannoned this all
right nationalist populist thing. And you had Ron's previous who was a traditional a traditional Republican, and they none of these things could ever come together. Um. They were all all inherently opposed to each other. And it soon got to the point where literally, I think if they could have, if one could have assassinated the other a hundred years before, in in in European courts, they would have assassinated each other.
Um and so and so you you had a white House, certainly at least until until John Kelly comes in in August, where literally nothing could happen because one would block the other for whatever they were trying. And they and they did eventually they did not pass any major legislation until the tax bill. So is it assumed then that McConnell in the one House, and and and and Ryan and the other they seize an opportunity and they're the ones
doing making the policy. Was you know the McConnell said, and I quote him as as as saying, he'll he'll sign anything we put in front of him, which I think is fundamentally true. He doesn't really care what it is. He just wants a win. And he repeats this over John, I need to win. I want to win. Why can't you bring me a win? Does didn't lose his position. There's Bannon gone because because eventually he wants to go, because he realized that Trump is an idiot as well. Totally, yeah,
he does. He doesn't. He doesn't want to stay there and watch the thing crash into the complete and he thought, you know, and it's and he thought he could change things. I think he always knew Trump was an idiot, but
he thought he was his idiot um. But then it became clear that Trump was also Jared and Avanca's idiot and and many other people's idiots, so that nothing could really happen here and then and and and there's an idiot, and then there's really an idiot, and so and I think that's what Bannon, you know, and I sort of saw this, this transformation of of Okay, we can we can work with this guy to this guy is really the ben and am I am? I writing assuming that
Bannon felt he really needed to be in charge. He needed Trump to to sit down with him and let him guide him and focus him and do with And Trump was gonna say the answer this is a line somebody applied to a friend of mine once said what's Bob gonna do? And the answer was, who's the last person to speak to him? You know, like everybody that walked in the room was like, sure, you got to wrap it up whatever you want. And then apparently Trump has the same disease. Correct, whoever walks in the room,
he just says yes to whatever they want. Yeah, and and who and the last person he he? I mean, Trump is not a bright guy. That shouldn't be released the tax returns. It should be released the transcripts. Um. It's one of the things that that drives Trump crazy, the idea that somebody might see his college transcripts. Oh, where is that Julian Assange when you need him? Someone called the Bolivian embassy? Or wheb the hell he is? Uh? The um? Everybody always said that that the one person
who had his ear was his daughter. What's happened in that relationship to your knowledge? And during this year in the White House, Well, I mean, I think it's I think she still does have his his ear, and I'd say she's among the key powers in the White House. It's it's Ivonka Trump and I think they are very much alike. They are very both transactional, you know. I mean somebody, somebody, um, I know describes them both as
without scruples, um um. And and I think that now, I mean, her position now is a difficult one because because I mean, I don't think she's going to be indicted, but I would place money that Jared is going to be indicted. Um. Jared is gonna be indebted because Trump is stupid, not that um no, But but but the the what do you think? Well, because I want to get to that as you step back, I mean, the book comes out, and I don't want to assume anything.
The book comes out, and one might automatically think that many of the people who you were talking to and had channels to dry up and they don't want to talk to you. And something tells me that some of them might go the opposite way. I want to talk to me even more because the ship is slowly sinking now because the presumption is that if he that he's priming everybody now Rosenstein and everything that he's talking about
to fire Mueller. He may actually be insane enough. Remember with Trump, things you swore were impossible in March are quote Titian realities by November. I mean, there's things that are insane to contemplate. Six months later. It's just the daily routine there. And and it's super hard to game this out because even if you invent a logic, a Trump logic, he's not only capable but likely of of defying his own logic here, right, So I couldn't tell you would. I mean, it makes no sense, literally no
sense to people you talked to. Do you still speaking to some people? Yeah? And do they tell you that he's gonna fire Muller? Um the contem we know they contemplated though, well, even that, you know, you know the content. That's an interesting story because the New York Times went with that story. He ordered the firing of of of
of Mueller. He told McGann the lawyer of fire and this became a major story and a kind of another evidence of his you know, his intent to obstruct justice, etcetera, etcetera. The truth is, and while he did order Muller fired, that's correct in the story, he did order McGan to fire Muller. That is correct in the story. The truth is this happens every day, so so it's it's a kind of thing. I mean, it just comes out of
his mouth and everybody, everybody ignores him. So so you know, so everybody, Um, you know, I saw there there, um uh, I just wanted I wish I could just be in that room. He's there and he's like, I can't this guy screamed with a plastic spoon, give me a medal spoon, proper spoon, fire mother, fire Miller. It's just like barking all these disparate, unconnected lines ice cream, Mueller, fire, um spoon.
You know, I needed more batteries for this remote remote that he's on an island of kind of uh dr Moreau or I don't know what it was in think. I mean he's always been I mean this is actually always throughout his whole career. Fire him, fire him. And he didn't have a whole show where that yeah you're fired. I never watched that. That was the thing. So so for the time sale he's he said, he he said
Mueller should be fired. It's kind of like yeah, but um, he says everybody should be fired, including Mueller, every day and almost every second of the day. I've got a couple more questions for you because we're gonna run out of time here. But but I want to say that I do sit there sometimes I go, I don't want to be this motherfucker again. I can't do this again. And I can't do it. You know, you stick a Trump? Oh God, do you never want to hear you? You?
You don't want to hear about Trump again? Is there anything left for you to say about Trump? Would there be more stuff from you about Trump or the White House or this experience or you Well, I'm not going to get back into the White House. Well let's never say never here. Um, if you bring ice cream, you might. I mean, I mean, I I absolutely believe I will get the call from him and he'll he'll go blah blah blah blah and rampt and rave and then he'll say,
come on by. So you're not ruling out that you might do another book? You know? Sometimes one is called one is called in an art. In an article I was reading for to prepare for this, I there was a quote that the writer gives from Stephen Levitzky and Daniel said blah, and he writes one parties view one another as mortal enemies. The stakes of political competition heightened dramatically.
Losing ceases to be a routine and accepted part of the political process, and instead becomes a full blown catastrophe. When the perceived cost of losing is sufficiently high, politicians will be tempted to abandon forbearance. Acts of constitutional hardball may then, in turn further undermine mutual toleration, reinforcing beliefs that our arrivals pose a dangerous threat. And of course I think what I'm piggy baging off of here is this notion of the members of conquerorce not not applauding
the state of the Union. Are treason us there? Treason us? Do you ever go through this whole thing? And he gets sad, we're depressed? Where you really are worried for the country? Are you worried for the country? When you do this, you kind of become part of it? What I and so I didn't feel myself looking this from the big lens. It was it was very much up close, very much about the people who were most directly involved in this um so I'm not thinking about the country.
I think what I felt most of all is that everybody there was tainted by this and felt tainted by this, and believe that they would not come out ahead, that this was a net loss all of the people around Trump. That's what that's the conclusion that they came to. Would expect people to feel. People come out of the White House and they make lots of money, and they're famous, and they have lots of influence and may be proud
of their work. Exactly and literally all of these people who went in thinking this would happen to them and came out as the months rolled on, thinking this, this is all broke. Um, this is not gonna work. This is not going to end well for anybody. The Democratic Party needs opposition. I don't want the Democrats to call all the shots either. I don't want the Democrats to be unopposed either, because that's that's not good for the country.
We need whether it's an independent party or we stick with the two party system that I don't see that changing. We need we need a healthy Republican Party. We need a right thinking Republican party. I hope that the Republican Party once this guy is gone, and I hope that is soon they make some effort to heal themselves, because it's really really not good for the country to see the Republican Party drive off the cliff the way they've
done with this guy, you know, handcuffed to the steering room. UM. I want to say UM as we finish, Uh, this is a podcast, my radio show. I want to thank my producer's Emily Bouten, Kathy Russo and Adam tie Schultz. Michael Well, if everybody it might the WHOA, thank you so much. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. M