This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. If we hearken back to the early days of COVID, many of us in the Northeast were glued to our television screens, hanging on every word of New York's Governor Andrew Cuomo in his daily press briefings. Sitting next to him, some six feet away, was his right hand secretary to the Governor and the most powerful unelected person in New York State government, Melissa de Rosa.
Over the course of the next year, Cuomo was accused of sexual harassment by eleven women. Following an investigation, a few short months later, he resigned. It was a stunningly swift fall from grace. Now Melissa de Rosa is here to tell her side of the story. Her book What's Left Unsaid, My Life at the Center of Power, Politics and Crisis, details her meteoric rise in government, her experience navigating the state through COVID, and her views on the
sexual harassment scandal. She takes no prisoners and sharing what she believes with the many angles being played to remove Cuomo from office. DeRosa worked her way up from an internship for Hillary Clinton to New York State director of Barack Obama's Political Action Committee, to eventually deputy chief of staff to New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. I wanted to know what motivated her to leave the AG's office for the governor's when given the chance.
The governor's office versus the AG's office is like going from JV Divarsity. You know, it's like you're in the AG's office. You can be involved. You can do a lot of good, bring a lot of cases to hold the big banks accountable. You know, we went after Trump University when I worked for Scheiderman, but I was watching Andrew Cuomo legalized gay marriage and passed the strongest gun safety laws in the country after Sandy Hook and you know, build,
rebuild the tappan Zee Bridge. And so, I mean, the governor's office is where I think, outside of the White House, you can affect the most sweeping change for the most amount of people at once. And so that was a place I always aspire to go.
And then you go over there, and it's kind of around the mid line of his first term. Yep, he's elected in twenty ten. He assumes office in twenty eleven. You go in twenty thirteen.
Yep, that's right, April twenty thirteen.
What had you heard about him in advance of you going over there? Because I have. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories about you. Let's just say this. Andrew Cuomo was somebody all my life I've known as a guy who was a brass knuckles guy. He's tough, and the reason he was treated differently was because when Republicans do that, nobody blinks.
Yep.
When you're a monster like Trump, a lot of Republicans they crave them, whereas the Democrats is a more kind of starchy Ivy League bow Tide, you know, moy and a half and Docaucus, McGovern Jean McCarthy, that kind of got. A Democrat that can throw a punch terrifies people. He terrifies the right wing and terrifies that side of the aisle. And Andrew can throw a punch. Andrew is known as a tough, tough guy and a no holds barred guy
when he needs to. Yep, is that the reputation you knew before you went over there?
I did, and he you know, also, I knew exactly what I was getting into. He was a notorious micromanager. He was a workaholic. He was first in the door in the morning, last out at the end of the day. And people forget because New York is so democratic that when he first took over, there was a Republican Senate. And so the year before he took office, the Democrats were in charge of the Senate the Assembly, and Patterson, who's a Democrat, was governor. They put gay marriage on
the floor and it goes up in flames. Andrew Cuomos, you know, assumes office the next year, he's got a Republican Senate. He gets gay marriage done with four Republican senators. And so he was tough, and he could throw a punch, but more than any thing, he was incredibly affected, smart and smart. He knew how to move the pieces on the chessboard in a way that no other politician I've ever seen can, which you know, he grew up living it through osmosis with his father, and you know, it
was just sort of in his blood. So, yeah, he had a reputation for being incredibly demanding and difficult to work for, but in a rewarding way.
And he was also beyond being the son of the former governor. He was the ag.
Himself, yep, and had secretary.
Secretary, so we had quite a bit of a He had quite a resume before going to the two Albany.
Yeah, and he managed his father's campaign actually in when he was twenty years old and his father ran for governor, the first time he managed his campaign. So you know, he was involved in sort of bare knuckle politics since he was a teenager.
But you kind of knew what you were getting into.
Oh, definitely.
And then you're there in twenty thirteen, and Cuomo resigns in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty one. But in twenty eighteen, Schneidermann resigns. Yep, your former boss resigns, And so it seems like you know, in New York in and around that time, Patterson, the hocal of his day, becomes governor because Spitzer, who's always the smartest guy in the room, resigned. There's sex scandal in the air everywhere in Albany.
Everywhere, although different brands of sex scandal.
But yes, you know, look, I think the scandal follows politicians. Politicians sometimes get over their skis. They're in power for too long, they think they're invincible, and then in other instances, like what I argue in the book with Cuomo, I think it was more about political opportunism and taking a shot to weaponize things that were actually every day interactions, like kissing someone on the cheek and putting your hand on their waist for a photograph and acting like that
was sexual harassment. But the one thing that's tried and true is that sex kills democrats. You know, if there's an allegation, it's as good as a guilty verdict and you're out. The party has no patience for due process or for trying to get through any of the details. And so that is one constant theme you saw with al Franken. You know, you see it all the time.
Were there any other opportunities you had? Was it automatically going to be something like that, or was there ever a thought? I mean, I'm not saying this to be kind. You're a tough, smart, committed you work hard. You worked hard in the book you talk about the costs to you of working on personally and otherwise, and you work hard. Were there every thoughts of going and making some money somewhere?
You know, it's a lot of different things. Do it for a lot of different people.
I love public service, and I felt fulfilled by putting in the hours and the reward was passing sweeping legislation. So I love public service, and I never for one minute contemplated going out into the private sector and monetizing those skills.
When you see that sex scandal, for example, plays the way it does not only in the democratic sphere, but I also think in the more media center. I think you can do whatever the hell you want to in Wyoming or South Dakota and there's less chance you're going to get caught. This is the media capital of the world. Yep. And when you're playing your cards a certain way and you're in New York, you better watch out. There's a lot of eyes on you.
Yes, that's that's absolutely that your.
Job to try to encourage them to remember that.
I mean, not really.
It wasn't anything that was ever an Andrew Cuomo thing. You know, Andrew Cuomo was a lot of things. People labeled him a bully, people, you know, accused him of being two bipartisan and working with Republicans when they said you should only work with Democrats.
He was accused of a lot of.
Things over the years, but The one thing he was never accused of was anything involving sexual harassment or anything coming close to that, which is why when this scandal started to unfurl, it was like as if I was in the twilight zone, because it was so far removed from anything he had ever been known to be or anyone thought he was.
Now when he starts to go down in this whole thing, and all of this up because I'm gonna ask you to read a passage from your book, Okay, I really want desperately for you to read this, because it's so amazing this It's so chocked with information and thoughts and so forth and important things. The when this starts to go down, who do you think was responsible, if not for creating or engineering, but who do you think really carried the ball in terms of bringing him down over a sexual charge.
Well, there were two people that I really like lay it at their feet. One is Lindsay Boylan, who sort of created this whole stampede from the beginning, and I
go through it in my book in painstaking detail. But she had been threatening our staff and saying that we were changing petitioning rules for Congress in order to hurt her even though we were doing in the middle of pandemic for everyone was totally devoid of reality, you know, promises retribution, says in these text messages to senior staff, my life is long, and so are my memory, and so is my resources. You know, she says all these things on Twitter that turned out to be wise in
any event. She was driving the train trying to actively recruit women to come out against the governor, even you know, little things like kiss on the cheek, hand on the waist and acting like this is an accuser and accusing number two because number three she was doing that. But it was Tiss James who carried this ball over the line.
Why do you think that was? What was her game?
Very simple, you know, talking about Barrey knuckle politics. The woman wanted to be governor, right, and we said it all along, and people said you're crazy, and then lo and behold. You know, as soon as we're out of office one month later, boom, Tish James announces she's running for governor. So the goal for her was very clear and obvious to us all along, and a lot of people tried to say no, no, no, this has something
to do with it. And then the minute we were out, she pivoted to run, so, you know, bare knuckle politics.
So Cuomo was elected in twenty ten, twenty fourteen, twenty.
Eighteen by massive margins, and he's assumed to have a very good chance at achieving the unthinkable, which is.
A fourth term, yes, which was unavailable to Pataki, to his father to three term governors. Or was it was Mario two terms?
Mario did three and then yeah he.
Lost and Protack three terms each. Yep, and Andrew's going to get the pull the rabbit out of the hatt and get a fourth term. Yep. Now, James declared when Andrew resigns in twenty twenty.
One, so the governor Cuomo resigns in August of twenty twenty one. She announces she's running for governor in October of twenty twenty one, so you know, she lets six weeks go by.
But the body was still warm.
Decent time, yes, and she announces she's running and then amazingly, look, she's not very talented, she's not very articulate on the stump, she wasn't raising a lot of money, and so her race lasted about two months and then she dropped out and she decided she was just going to run for AG again and lean in on Trump, and so that's what she did.
Now you have some very choice words for Hochel, and some of my favorite passages, regardless of my feelings, are lack thereof of support for Hokeel. I do see that New York politics, of course, when number one on the call sheet is gone and the lieutenant governor a purely ceremonial position my entire life. People said to me the state wide offices are two Senate seats, governor, comptroller, and AG and that the lieutenant governorship is just a ceremonial,
bullshit thing for the campaign. But we have entered a phase now where a statewide office in this country is occupied by some pretty listless, colorless people. Why do you think that is?
You know, look, I feel the same way. I'm disappointed by government at every level right now. It feels like a lot of people who sort of have been hanging around the hoop and then they get their slot, and then it's all they care about is staying in power and not doing anything with it while they're there. And I was actually saying this to someone the other day.
You know, in terms of both the migrant crisis, and also post COVID New York, where this should be a moment of opportunity where we're reimagining what the city can be and we're getting creative about dealing with vacant storefronts and empty office buildings, and instead you know nothing. And I think about, you know, ten years ago, love him or hate him, but you know, Bloomberg was mayor Andrew Cuomo was governor, and what it looked like when you
had two really super talented executives at the helm. But I think that we're in a bad place right now where there's this sort of mentality if you wait in line, it's your turn, then you get to do it, and the democratic machinery falls in line. There are no primaries for these high profile positions, and so it just allows the cycle of sort of sluggishness and listlessness to use
your word, to perpetuate. And New York, I'm sorry, is the greatest state in the country, and so you'd think we'd be attracting better talent.
But I also think there is this dynamic very deep.
The bench isn't deep it all. And I think there also is this dynamic now where there are some really talented people in the private sector who don't want to go near politics because they think to themselves, if I do that, I'm going to be destroyed in the media. People are going to come after me. My personal life is going to be distorted, exposed. So we're we're in a bad position, and there needs to be a disruption of the status quo, and it has to happen soon.
We do have this dearth, We do have this shortage of people who would make great leaders. You mentioned the twin cylinders of Cuomo with Bloomberg. I thought Bloomberg was somebody who would have been better in a body like the Senate. I think Bloomberg on his own as an executive, which is what he was He's been his whole life, the executive calling the shots and in charge. It wasn't so great because he spent ninety million dollars of his own money on three races.
Yes he bought the election, well, yes, he certainly.
Yeah, he certainly used his own money leveraged that money to win. But I always felt like Bloomberg was incredibly competent. And the mayor of New York City's job essentially is police and garbage. It's please garbage, education, and at least during that period of time, I think people felt really confident about the leadership coming out of city Hall.
There was no corruption. He wasn't someone who could be bought.
He kept the trains moving on time, the city was at its all time best in terms of safety, Businesses were coming in, and so I thought he was a phenomenal executive.
Melissa DeRosa If you enjoy conversations with brilliant, highly skilled political aids, be sure to check out my episode with Huma Abadeen, Hillary Clinton's chief of staff.
To some extent, there was crisis all around me. It's one of the reasons I share in the book this story about the first time I staff Hillary and her speech is forgotten in the car and she calls me on to stage and I'm this kid, I'm barely twenty one, don't have the speech. And that was the moment, the moment where you basically either fall apart or say I got it. I can fix this. And I fixed it
in that moment. That was twenty six years ago, and I have always figured it out, and I actually think I have figured out that I'm pretty good at it.
To hear more of my conversation with Huma Abadeen go to Here's the Thing dot org. After the Break, Melissa DeRosa shares what it was like during the loneliest point of her life as friends and allies fell away while the accusations stacked up against Andrew Cuomo. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Melissa DeRosa's book What's Left Unsaid gives a detailed account of the unfolding of the sexual harassment scandal involving Governor Andrew Cuomo in
twenty twenty one. I wanted her to share a passage from her book, reflecting on this time as she and Cuomo's inner circle attempted to navigate the crisis.
I hung up and walked outside to see the Governor sitting at the round table on the patio, the same table we had sat at so many times in the last eight years, with his family, with senior staff, smoking cigars, debating policy, laughing, arguing. Melissa, what's going on? The governor asked, responding to my drawn face. There was no way to sugarcoat this one. There's a rumor going around that Sheriff Apple is going to arrest you, I said, Governor. The
legislature is going to impeach you. The facts don't matter. They aren't going to scrutinize a damn thing in that report. The Senate has the votes, christ to the majority leader publicly announced she's one of them. The far left in her conference wanted you out before any of this. They used this to do it. The Governor heard every word I said, nodded his head and looked over at Steph. Can you get your laptop. I have a speech to write. At that point, I didn't know what speech he was
going to write. I'm not sure he did either. With every passing hour, I could feel the walls closing in. I didn't know who I could trust or where I could turn. My phone was constantly ringing with unsolicited advice from legislators, outside consultants, and our remaining senior staff, each with their own agenda. I was lost in a fog of trying to discern whether the council I was receiving
was to benefit the administration or the person calling. And as the hours went on, I could feel the inner shrinking details about private discussions I had with longtime colleagues, people I truly believed were real friends, about the state of my emotional well being suddenly appeared in the news stories crediting blind sources with quote direct knowledge wrapped in betrayal. I could count on one hand the number of people I believed I could talk to you. Honestly, I had never felt more alone.
What does that bring back?
That was at the bottom, That was the bottom, That was the bottom. I resigned, I think a day after that passage.
Adler told you to resign.
Norman Adler told me to resign.
I've just said the governor is a big boy.
Yep, he's a big boy. My longtime mentor said, he's a big boy.
He can do it. You've got to get yourself out of ra former partner, my father's former business partner.
Yeah.
And he said to me at that time, which I do think was true and prescient. He said, in a year or two, people are going to look back and see this all differently. They're going to recognize it for the hysteria that it is, and he will figure this out. But today, you've got to get yourself out of there.
Right when you say there, each with an agenda of their own. Yep. I'm going to assume based on my own experience from knowing people in political life and flirting with going into publics myself years ago, and this kind of thing that there's just nothing like that world. When there's blood in the water, when they see that you're wounded, yep, they all go to high ground. They're all gone.
They're gone, and each of them have their eye on their own brass ring. You know, if you're out of the way, then the next person can move up, and that means I can move up.
And if those people.
Are out of the top jobs and are no longer a chief of staff or commissioners or whatever, then then other crop of people we can put in those positions. And so that day that I reflect on in the book, that's what I said, I had never felt more alone,
and I didn't know who I could trust. And you go from one end where during COVID you're these national international heroes that the world is relying on to get through the day, and then you swing a year later and people are trying to force you out with the sort of created you know, manufactured scandal and how quickly you're disposable.
And it was a really terrible time.
And it was after a year of dealing with COVID as I write in the book, I was sleeping three hour nights, hard work, laying on the floor of my office, and crying at the end of the day after calling the family members of the healthcare workers who died, struggling with my mental health on the weight of the decisions we were making, literally life and death. And then it's like fast forward a year and a half later, and this is how you.
Think public You were married at the time.
I was married at the beginning of COVID, and but we were separated, which I also talked about in the book. We were separated. We told, we said to each other, we weren't going to tell anyone was going on. I was getting a ton of media attention. I could I didn't want it to be in the tabloids. Yeah, and so I was struggling with you knowed my marriage, Yes.
I could have, but no.
And so it was, you know, struggling with that isolation and not only separating from my husband and my marriage falling apart, but also sort of lying to everyone around us about the state of our marriage because we didn't want the public attention, we didn't want the scrutiny. So, yeah, it was that those two years is like nothing I've ever experienced and wish on nobody.
And when your marriage ended, it seemed like from what was in the book that you you that he was basically laying his cards on the table that you weren't available to him. Yes, work was your mistress.
Yes, essentially, Well, we met together at work. I was technically his boss, and we started dating while at work. And then actual no no for Quoma Andrew.
What was he doing for him?
He was his press secretary and I was communications director, so I was directly his boss. And he asked me out, and we had dinner thirty nights in a row, and he wanted to be my boyfriend, and I said I can't do that because it's technically not allowed.
And he you did warn him.
I did warn him, and you know, then he leaves the we get married, and as it turned out, and I think this is true for people in general, sometimes you come to this realization that the glue that held us together was work, and we were no longer working together, and so when we weren't in that same environment day to day, we just didn't have that same connection and interests and we started to grow apart.
But I said to him and I write about this in the book.
At one point when we got into an argument and I said, it's not like I you know, there was deceptive marketing here.
You met me at work. I came as advertised.
But you know, you push as much as you can, you hold on as long as you can, and then at a certain point, you know, such as life.
I want to go back to You're born in Rochester or Albany.
No, I was born in Rochester.
What was your dad doing there? Then?
He was district director for Louis Slaughter, who was a congresswoman. I know Louis yep.
So I started off, you know, four year old kid on the campaign trail with dad, learning about politics young and as his career evolved over time, and it brought him to Albany, and we moved our family to Albany. You know, I was alongside him every step of the way. I considered us to be partners. I was reading multiple newspapers at twelve, and I was, you know, shadowing him in the Capitol at fourteen and watching meet the press since I, you know, was like able to.
Hold a thought, and so goes to Washington. No.
Well, when Sawner was in Washington and she was a congresswoman. He was, he worked for her, but in regious in Rochester. Yeah, but then he you know, went.
To gold say Capital, you would go with him to Washington.
No, No, I'm saying. Then when we moved to Albany and he was doing business in Albany in.
The state, what did you start doing there? He was political.
Director for the Public Employees Federation, which is one of the biggest unions in the country. So yeah, so he took up the union movement and he spent years and years doing union politics, and so I would shadow him there and I just I had an early love for politics and government.
It was just in my blood too.
But when you're working with your father in Albany, when did you begin to get a sense of something that I'm always mindful of because you know, the Brennan Center for Justice and then my law school that I worked with very closely years ago about campaign finance reform, YEP. They would write a paper every year, and one paper they wrote several years ago, many years ago, was about an evaluation of all the fifty state houses in the United States YEP, and the fiftieth and always the fiftieth
and probably forever. The fiftieth was Louisiana and forty.
Ninth always need it. Albany, yep, they said it.
In terms of effectiveness, corruption, yep, mismanagement, you name it. That said this is one of the worst state houses. What was it when you were there? Did you pick up on that? Why is Albany so dysfunctional?
There was a period and it's interesting because I feel like the governor hasn't Cuomo hasn't gotten enough credit for this. But the campaign finance laws in New York are the most ridiculous of any anything in the country, not the city, but the state. I mean, individual contribution limits at sixty
grand a person. You know, you can There was an LLC loophole for a long time where a person gets set up fifteen LLC's and give two hundred grand up, you know, a pop through each of their LLC's, which a lot of these real estate guys actually did.
I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but they actually did exploit it and do it.
And so over the years, I think we've done a pretty decent job of reigning it in. In twenty nineteen, so right before, you know, two years before we resigned, we actually enacted a public campaign finance system, which is supposed to go in effect for this upcoming election. And what's interesting is for a long time we couldn't get it done because the Republicans in the Senate were against it. Finally, the stars aligned, we had the Democratic Senate and Assembly
and we were going to get this done. And then last year, when we were out of office, the legislature actually watered down the public campaign finance limits and the rules in order to allow more money back into the system, and the governor signed that bill. And so it's interesting to watch because Democrats, you know, have a lot of swagger when it comes to talking about these issues, but then when they're in charge, they want to do everything they can.
To stay in charge.
So, you know, I do think that that step was a step in the right direction, and we'll see how it goes. But you know, I blame the campaign finance laws.
As do why because by nature, I'm sure and I've examined this quite deeply because of my commitment to campaign finance reform. I've written papers, I've given speeches in Congress where I've mentioned how campaign finance reform is the lynchpin of all the problems in this country.
Yeah.
Absolutely, you're never going to get people to come and run for Incumbency is too powerful. And with that in mind, I'm not telling you anything fresh. This is your career. But I said I was never a term limits person. But when you say to me, when these idiots say to me that elections are themselves term limits, I want to go, well, not really, incumbency is such. I mean people who like to take Hogel. Hogel assumes office in
twenty twenty one. When he resigns, she's eligible for her own full term the following year, and she gets elected to a full term, so she gets what she's craving like Patterson. But Patterson did not win a full term.
Patterson did not want to right.
Which which I truly truly thought that Hogel would not win a full term.
She almost didn't. I mean, when you look at the numbers, it's crazy. An a state in New York where there's only twenty two percent statewide registered Republicans.
The guy that was running against her.
Lee Zelden, is a maga election denial Yeah, anti choice, you know, just the worst across its yes, everything, and he she only beats him by five points after she raised a record sixty million dollars, which just I think goes to show you how little support she actually does have. And I actually think the only reason she eked it out in the end was because all of a sudden, the tabloids were saying Zelden could win, Zelden could Winzelden
who could win? So I started hearing from people that I know that didn't like her at all, but said, I have to turn out or else we could end up with like a mini Trump in the governor's office. So I think the fear that was created by the New York Post, which they thought was beneficial to them in momentum, I think, blew up in their face and actually created a wave where a lot of people turned out to vote who otherwise would have stayed home. But
she just eked it out. I mean, for New York, we used to when you know, by fifteen twenty points, and for her to win with five against someone like that in a state like this is crazy.
Hochel wins. And I'm wondering with your knowledge of state politics when someone like Hochel wins re election even though it was by a paltry margin, who are her supporters Now who's behind her, What organizations, institution's political powers does she have in her pocket? Now?
You know, look, it's people who have a direct interest in whatever is going to get done in Albany. It's incredibly transactional. So whoever needs something from her is going to continue to support her. But what I find fascinating is, you know, I don't really see the women's groups out with that much energy. I actually just saw Sienna came out with a poll a couple of weeks ago with
her latest numbers women, she's forty four, forty two. I mean, she barely has you know, supportive women in this state. She's underwater with almost every category in the state, in a state that's this democratic, and so she doesn't have a lot of support from actual people, where she has supporters from lobbyists, from interest groups who've got an agenda
at Albany. Yeah, well and barely. I mean, they'll support her in so far as they'll fill her campaign coffer, but it's not like you know, the reason Zelden got so close is because union workers, specifically those in the building trades and other blue collar areas, turned out and voted for Zelden. So the leadership may be aligned with her politically and in terms of filling her coffers and taking meetings with her and holding events for her, but their members aren't with her.
I remember people would explain to me, because my family, a big chunk of my family lives in upstate New York. Many people who analyzed state politics and would regard Cuomo a certain way thought he'd done something, you know, very shrewd and very very practical, which was, you know, the five boroughs you got in your pocket, that's blue, blue, blue. Not thing's ever going to change that. And Long Island
is red, red red. There might be some little ribbons there that are but you're never going to deliver a serious number of Democratic votes on Long Island. Now, the real orchard for votes is Central New York and Upstate New York. And the Cuomo learned to play center Republicans and manipulate center Republicans and got votes in passed legislation. And although his numbers, mind that have been dramatically different. He put a lot of his attention and a lot
of the state's money into Upstate New York. Is that true?
Yeah?
No, He focused a tremendous He believed that Upstate New York got short shrift for a long time. It did, and so when he came into office, he said, I'm going to reorient the power structure, and I'm going to put a lot more time, attention and money into Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, Rochester, the North Country, the Southern Tier, yep. And so we spent a lot of time trying to build up the
local economies, trying to revitalize those downtowns. But you know, when we were there, we got the support of Long Island. It's really interesting. The other night, you know, everyone said watch Ohio, Watch Virginia. When I was watching the returns come in, I said, no, no, no, watch Suffolk County, because that to me is bellweather. You know, like, now all the Long Island to your point is now completely read. Whereas when we ran in twenty eighteen Andrew Cuomo one
both NASA and Suffolk. There were democratic county executives of Nasau and Suffolk. And so to me, watching Long Island is sort of like a bell weather for the suburbs around the country. Yeah, and so I keep my eye on Long Island because I think so goes Long Island, so goes the country. And it's interesting because I think that people paid way too much attention to what happened on that abortion referendum in Ohio, which of course that
was going to win Roe v. Wade polls at seventy percent. Nationwide, the Republicans are wildly out of step on that issue. So when you put it on a ballot in a place like Ohio, it didn't shock me that it passed with fifty seven percent. In fact, I was surprised it didn't go with sixty percent. But I was like, look at Virginia the legislature which did hold democratic went democratic.
But then also look at what happened in Suffolk County, And that's where I think politically going into next year, we need to keep our eye on is what's going to happen in the suburbs, because that will decide the elections.
Melissa de Rosa, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Melissa DeRosa tells us why she believes that Trump will be president again and what we might do to prevent it. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're
listening to here's the thing. As Director of Communications, chief of Staff, and then Secretary to the Governor of New York, Melissa de Rosa has held multiple positions of tremendous power and influence, yet her college days happened to play a significant role in her path to state government.
I went to Cornell.
I am a true upstate girl, born in Rochester, lived in Saratoga. In Albany, I did Industrial and labor relations, which is unions. They have a very specific course on negotiating arbitration, you know, the union world that I did undergrad, and then I did my master's there too, in public administration.
So you said the major is in we again.
Industrial and labor relations.
Is it safe to say the Cornell with that kind of program as a pipeline to Albany.
It's exactly from that school, exactly We've been waiting for you.
Yes, that's exactly right now.
When you finished, did you you got a graduate degree.
I took a couple of years off in between, and then went back. I went to d C. And I worked for a Member of Congress on the Hill as her press secretary. I managed the Nity of Alaskaz from Brooklyn, and I managed a couple of campaigns.
I was doing communications.
I actually did a very brief stint right out of college and fashion, which my father.
Was not thrilled. I did that for about a year. It was like my moment of rebellion. I always loved fashion.
I met somebody who offered me a job as a fashion polysist for theory theory.
Yeah, yeah, they're doing well, Yeah, they're doing great. And so I made some money there. I could have made some money there. I loved it.
That's how I learned about page six and about you know, all of these various place I see the cool people hang out with York. And then I went into politics, and I was like fashion to politics sort of a lateral move, but no, so otherwise I've just been doing this, you know, since I was literally almost in diapers.
Incredible, just talking to you for forty five minutes. Your brain is like that twelve cylinder engine that I see with so many people in your field, which is a mastery of both facts and perspectives.
Well, thank you.
The mastery of both, which is like, here's what the facts are and here's so I want you to understand them and how I want to shape the discussion with you often leads to people being you know, there's really no place else for them to go. The type of person who not just goes into your field, but they go into your field and they excel a certain kind of a you know that they just have their brain is seething all the time with all this information. Did you at any point think you wanted out you wanted
to get out? No? Never, never. If you could see her face right now, it's priceless, she's like, no, no, actually, no.
Yeah, well there was.
There was one point I almost left the governor in the summer of twenty twenty, after the first wave of COVID had sort of normalized, and we were incredibly close with then Vice President Biden and his team, and there was a period of time where the governor and I were talking to their team about me leaving the governor and going to work on Biden's team for the end
sprint of the election. And I almost left in August of twenty twenty to do that, but then decided that New York wasn't done with COVID, there was probably going to be a second wave.
And that I could be more of more use in New York to the people of New York.
And I think about all the time if I had done that and left in August of twenty twenty and I wouldn't have been there for any of the scandal, any of that twenty twenty one, what would it have looked like? And I often think about, you know what, I have been better off with my life have been different, But you know what, I stayed there until we turned off the lights, and I'm proud of the loyalty and
the commitment. And at the end of the day, I don't think I would have traded it in because people needed somebody there who could stilby laser focused and get the government going while we're doing the vaccines and everything else.
Of course, lots of my conversations are a very armchair with friends of mine who are not in charge of public policy. They're not government officials and so forth, state or a federal but they're powerful business people. They're people who are worth billions of dollars. And I work with them in certain charitable organizations typically and things like that, and some are my friends, and you know, they give me that very thumbnail view that COVID pushes a significant
number of people out of the city. Yep, they leave. The revenue of the city is lower than it's been in forever. Yes, and the costs to fix the city are higher than ever.
Yes.
And we have a mayor in New York who, rather than getting into any diatribe about him one thing, I see him here and there, and I'm always aware where he's going at night. You always knew what social event he was at. But you don't hear one vowel or consonant about what he intends to do about the financial crisis in the city. What are they going to do?
So he's in a terrible position, and I actually feel for him because the revenues are down. He's making drastic cuts to the state agencies which are going to end up ultimately hurting the city. And it's not because he wants to, but it's because he's got nowhere else to go. I mean, we're back to sort of ten cup, you know,
of the seventies. And I think that if we don't get the crime problem under control, and they can hit me with NYPDS stats till they're blue in the face, the city does not feel as safe as it did ten years ago, five years ago, between that and the migrant crisis and the homeless crisis. If they don't start to get some of these things out under control, you're going to continue to see outward migration, which is then
going to make the problem even worse. And I think that he's sort of right now underwater, especially with the migrant crisis, which by the way, was created by the federal government unilaterally with their changes to the border policies, and then we're sort of dealing with the brunt of it and not getting the money and not getting the help or the resources. So he's bogged down with that,
which I really sympathize on. But you know, this is what I've said before, It's like, post COVID A crisis is an opportunity re envision what New York is going to be for the next generation. How do we attract some of these industries, these growing businesses. How do we get younger people wanting to come here, How do we get people to stay here? How do we get people who left to come back? And those conversations aren't had.
We need to eliminate the real estate vacancy exemption. And then if you can't ride off.
If you've got a vacant building.
You have a vacant building, you can only write it off for a certain period. And I don't care if you put a sneaker store in there and it was an art gallery before, I don't care. Yeah, okay, you need to be income producing in that building and paying taxes.
Yes, And I also think we need to and if there's a real problem that's structural, then we need to put incentives in place to get people in where then they're starting to make money and then they stay in for five ten year releases. But no one's having these conversations. You and I are having it sitting in a sound booth. But this should be the conversation that's driving Kathy Hochele and Eric Adams, and instead we don't hear much.
That's terrible. With the time we have left. I'm assuming you've got a very mixed response to the book. People who were.
You know, it's incredible. It's actually been like ninety ten positive. And I was really bracing for the other way around, because there were a lot of people who chased us out of office, and a lot of people who are very loud on social media, who you know, don't like the governor and want to see him dead and gone, And so I was really bracing, But outside of one or two outlets, it's really been very positive.
It's been heartening.
Actually, well, let me ask you this. I mean, the answer is probably an obvious one, but I want to hear your answer. You describe the scene when all this stuff you bring the message to the governor and there's a back and forth and he says, fuck Maureen Dowd. Why was Maureen Dowdy in your opinion someone like that? Why are some of the leading lights of the left side of the aisle so cruel?
You know? I feel like that period of time, and I have an entire chapter in the book called Media Circus where I sort of go through the media's role in the takedown of the administration, and it had become an arms race, absolute arms race. And you know what it is to get wrapped up in these media cycles where they're just unrelenting, and you read things in a paper and you're like, really, that's what happened.
No it didn't. I was efer, now, yeah, exactly.
You know, there's no standards, there's everything in that blne source, there's no truth in the press, you know all of it, and we had gotten into this place where you know, and again the manipulation of what Tiss James did in her report was she used this number eleven, and so nobody even paid attention to the details. And when you actually pull back the curtain and you see eight or nine of the eleven, our plain vanilla meet and greet,
kiss on the cheek. Okay, maybe you shouldn't call someone's sweetheart, but you have to resign because of that, Like that was one of the eleven. You know, putting your hands on someone's face at a wedding as you're taking a photograph with him, These were one of the eleven. And so I think what happened was then she drops the report. She says, the number eleven. No one looks through the report, nobody reads the report, nobody cares about the details. Where
there's smoke, there's fire, Oh my god, eleven. You've got to resign. And everyone who has stood by him is an enabler. And Joe Biden actually went out who had been a good friend of Andrew Cuomo's for twenty years, good friend of Mary O Cuomo's.
Andrew Cuomo was a good friend with his son Bo, who died. When Bo died, Andrew Cuomo was the first person online at the week. You know, these relationships went back decades. And in the moments after this report comes out, Joe Biden goes out and says, eleven women. I didn't read the report, but I saw the press conference He's got to resign, and that created this stampede of all the politicians saying he's got to go, and the press.
You know, it was all over this. So mooring doubt I write about in that in the book.
That was actually what pushed me to resign, because I woke up that Sunday morning and my mother called me and she had just Hitler's enabler and she called me and she said, did you see this? And I said, Mom, how many times I told you not to read the New York Post? And she said, no, no, no, no, it was the New York Times. Yeah, exactly, you straighten there out.
She said, no, it's more in doubt. And she wrote this whole column comparing me and a bunch of my other colleagues and Chris Qualmo and these people to Hitler's enablers, and also to Harvey Weinstein's enablers, and I couldn't take it anymore.
I was like enabling what.
Kissing someone on the cheek, by the way, which is something I see politicians do every day today while I'm sitting here with you, And so it just it was a moment of hysteria and political opportunism, and I think the state has suffered as a result, because I think it lost one of the greatest executives it's ever had.
And the proof is in the pudding.
I mean, look where we are today versus where we were pre COVID, It's not even close.
What was the reaction you got from women about being a defender of promos?
You know, the reaction I got from women in real time versus the reaction today is very stark and couldn't be more different back then. It was even from my girlfriends, Missy, what are you doing? You know, Melissa, what are you thinking? You shouldn't stand by him, You need to separate yourself from him. And today so many people say, you know, he was screwed and he was railroaded. And it's great to see a strong woman who can actually see nuance and gray and not just head for the hills and
push back on some of this nonsense. And again it's not that I'm saying I don't believe these women. I believe eight or nine of them. There are photographs of these intractions. They were all in public spaces. It was the hysteria of it that I never allowed myself to
succumb to, and so many women today. I mean, you should walk down the street with Andrew Cuomo in Manhattan, the you know reception he gets from people pulling over to take photographs and you were relroaded and run again and when when are you going to run again?
And so I think that now.
That the fog of COVID has cleared and the hysteria as well behind us, people look back at it with a much more sober assessment that was just not afforded to anybody in real.
Time when I read the book. And you can comment on this. You know, your your ex husband complained about your you know, ceaseless focus on your job. And I understand that because there's people when you get married, you either get me or you don't.
Yep, what would you do differently?
If anything?
You know, there's a.
Lot of probably micro things I would differently, you know, when people ask me during COVID. You know, if you look back and would you do things differently? And I say I would do everything differently now that I you know, because we were dealing in imperfect information and now knowing what we know now retrospectively, but on a macro sense, and maybe this, you know, I'm such a screwed up human being that I would say this. But I don't know that I would make any macro moves differently. Yes,
I sacrificed my personal life. Yes I dealt with infertility. I'm forty one years old and single right now. But you know what, I got to be there to lead the world through COVID. I got to make a difference in people's lives by doing a fifteen dollars minimum wage and being part of overhauling LaGuardia. Everything work princes legislation, and you know it's I see the contributions, the physical contributions in Moynihand Station and LaGuardia Airport, in JFK and the Marioquimal Bridge, and I.
Don't know that I would give any of that up.
I mean what, I have tried to be more present, somewhat sure, But I also think we lie to ourselves when we say, you know, time is zero sum, and I was really really good at what I did, but it's because I dedicated all of myself. And I'm not sure I would have been as effective and been as successful as I was, as young as I was if I ever took my foot off the gas.
And that's just the reality.
So I think Macro, I'd probably do it all the same micro, I'd make a lot of little changes.
You want to get back in there, Oh, for sure you do.
I love public service and coming along with the service or politics, both they go hand in hand.
You seem to avoid that word. You said public service twice.
Politics, government, public service, they all go hand in hand. And you know what people say to me, what are you crazy? You were batted around like a pinata, and the press they chased you.
I had paparazzi hounding me.
And the reality is, you get in the ring, you know you're going to get punched in the face.
But who's standing at the end.
And I think that doing good in the world and making these contributions is worth getting punched in the.
Face a little. So develop a skin, you develop a thick skin.
Do you think Trump's going to win?
I do today here today, Yes, I mean, and you've got Jill Stein just announced Joe Manchin's retiring.
What's he up to?
Is he going to run on the no party you know, no labels party ticket? These battleground state poles this far out, I know everyone wants to be dismissive of them. I think we should be sounding the alarm. I think unless we make some changes fast, and we start to engage with real people and get more in tune with what matters to them, mainly pocketbook issues, gas prices, I think we're looking at an upset and I'm not sure this country can survive another four years of Donald Trump.
Yeah, I totally. I mean Hillary came out so that the other day it'll be the end of the country.
Yeah, it'll be the.
End, which is just which is something It's interesting to me that people think that the United States is immune to that kind of thing, that that it can't happen here, that the country can't morph into something that's unrecognizable.
I mean, we saw it on January sixth, we saw a preview. So if he's back in power and people are granted immunity, and you know, all of a sudden, he's embracing real life Nazis and things like he was doing in Charlottesville.
I mean, where's the end?
Like they sort of went a little bit more underground since he's gone, But if he comes back, I mean, I think it's going to be times ten what we saw during his first.
And I obviously thought that he was going to be in real trouble with the January sixth charges because dozens of people have already been tried, convicted and sense for that crime, and if you lump him in with them that. I thought that the square footage there was vast because of the other people that were convicted. But I think nothing is more jerking and frenetic than speculation about politics.
Is Newsom's going to jump in, somebody gonn tap Biden on the shoulder, and so you've got to get out now, I don't think so.
I mean, Axelrod tried, you know, on Twitter or the other day David Axelrod said it's time we all come to terms with this, and the reaction from the party was not great, And so you know, I don't think Newsom's going to jump in. I don't think anyone serious is going to jump in. I think it's going to
be what it is. The best thing we could do at this point is try to, you know, massage some of our messages and focus on some of these pocketbook issues and try to turn the conversation because just having an anti Trump dialogue is not going to be enough.
It's not good to be against something. You've got to show people what you're for.
And now that he's been in office for three years, it's what have you done for me lately? And a lot of his legislative accomplishments are great, but we're not going to feel the effects of them for three four five years, and people feel economically worse off.
What you know, Wall Street isn't doing as well.
Inflation is still out of control, so interest rates are up when you're trying to buy a house, and so, you know, people start to glorify the past.
Oh, when Trump was there, it wasn't this.
Bad, and oh, by the way, you know, how much worse can it get? And so then you get into this bad place where you forget how bad it was. You forget that we had a lunatic in the White House who was you know, tweeting these crazy things, and the things he said about women and the things that the supporters he embraced, and you sort of wash all of that away with time.
And so I am. I'm petrified, and I think more people should be.
Yeah. When I even when I live in New York, I woke at the door and I say, these four people over here voted for Biden, and these four people over here voted for Trump, and those two to finish not the ten percent image and those two were undecided.
Yeah, but it.
Still means of the voting population, half of these people voted for Trump, even in New York City, I believe.
Yeah, no, the numbers are not And like you know, New York City, you would think Trump should go. Seventy thirty is where they should go. And you know it's just and again keep your eye on Long Island. I look at that bellwether the rhetor gets, the scarier it is, so we'll see.
I thought Ronald Reagan was a president who said to people, you know, you want to have a swimming pool, and the federal government wants to tax you in such a way where they're going to give out clean condoms and needles to kids in New York City. And don't you think those kids in New York City should take care of themselves, and you should have a swimming pool. Tax policies should be adjusted where you pay less taxes and
they'll be taken care of by somebody else. Churches, whatever, you deserve to have a second car or a swimming pool, it's your money. And Reagan freed people to go more greedy and more self directed. Trump is someone who's taken it to this unbelievable height.
Oh yeah.
What he said to people is you hate black people, you hate gay people, You have no use for women being You don't believe women should be equal men.
Just say it.
You should be able to say whatever you want. This is America, I mean a free speecher. So whatever ugly things they think you're saying, whatever you're saying they think are ugly to say, don't worry about them. Say whatever you feel. And that's why we hear hatred this drum beat. One last question for you, and that is I'm probably obviously teeing up the ball here. I wouldn't say one person, but among the people you've known, worked with, or encountered, name one politician you admire the most.
One politician. Well, I think I have to say Andrew or else. That's true.
You admire him look in terms of his ability, his effectiveness, but not even close, not even close. I can't name one other politician that comes close to the level of contributions he did during his time in office.
I read this book. It is a fabulous book because it's a woman talking about her career and her life in the intersection in a way I don't really hear that often. When I do, it's not as well written. This is a very well written book. Your book is a really wonderful book.
Thank you, Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on, Thank you for having me.
My Thanks to Melissa de Rosa. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
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