I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing. In nineteen sixty six, Yon Winner, suburban Jewish son of a businessman, dropped out of Berkeley. Neither a rebel nor a flower child, he was drawn to rock the music of generational grievance. Winner would become the baby boomers go to analyst of that music and the culture that produced it. He just needed his mouthpiece. A year after leaving college, from a small apartment on San Francisco's Petrero Hill, Winner
decided to found a magazine. I borrowed money from my mother in law, my stepmother, and scraped together and we just sort of got some free office space in the printer in San Francisco and had no expenses, no salaries, nothing, just kind of hand him out for a while, and you published how What What? We had enough money to pay the printer's bill, and since it was printed on twenty four pages a really cheap newsprint, the bill was relatively low. So you have something that resembles what Now
What did Rolling Stone then look like? It looks like it looks like a tabloid size, you know, like a village voice size, with paper paper and with a front page rather than a cover, which was a later kind of thing that we put on. And uh, it was twenty four pages and we sat up in the corners Our price is Cheap, which I took from Mad magazine. Um, and what change? How does it start to build? What do you attribute that too? Well? I think that it
started to build because of the editorial excellence. Because in n seven the leading edge of the baby boom was just during the Beatles were still in their mop pop face. Dylan was doing Highway sixty month, so rock and roll wasn't covered in the newspapers or television. In the movie, it was nowhere else except on the jukeboxes on the radio. It started to build because we started to do articles about music that musicians and serious music fans we're recognizing
as being really important stuff. Stuff they want to know from musicians about how they created their music, what they were trying to say, and other kinds of stories about cultural issues that people recognize as being really good. I mean, within our first year, we had presented a two part interview with Pete Townsend, a big long interview that I had done with him in which he articulated Tommy for the first time we had Mick Jagger on the cover and now reminding you with this tiny little thing in
San Francisco. And for our first anniversary issue, John and Yoko gave us the naked picture of themselves that was banned on their Two Versions album. How do you get them to do that? They liked the magazine, They saw what we were doing. They liked it. They didn't. I didn't know any of them, you know, I, you know, you kind of met no and there was no yet and then there was no publicity machinery, no record company. All this stuff we now called the starmaking machine didn't
really exist. Then. You know that the communication went channeling directly with artists and we'd send cops issues. Don't see it and they go, oh, I like that. You know, John Yoko, that magazines about music is taking it seriously. You know it's taking us seriously. Yeah. We were reviewing Beggars Banquet and the same way we thought of that in their Satanic magazine. We got a letter from Charlie Watts early on saying, jeez, we're sorry you didn't like it.
We'll try and do It's funny. It wasn't to any business acumen. It wasn't because I knew how to market or knew anything about business. I knew nothing about business or complished nobody who helped you take it to the next level? How does it kind of grew on its own?
You know, through trial and error. I made so many mistakes, name one, Oh my god, let's see, spending fortunes in it, make moving into huge offices without no idea how we're going to pay for the overhead, Hiring the wrong people, putting on a campaigns that you know, the wrong time. There were small mistakes, then they got to be larger and larger over the year. But you're learning the magazine your father was not unpublished, not at all. My mom was a writer and she taught me how to kind
of edit and a lot about writing. But I was the editor of my high school year book, okay, And then I worked for NBC News so as a when I was in college. So I had journalistic experience, but absolutely no business experience, you know. And it was really it was trial there, you know, and we would only spend what we cash that we had on hand. You have to go. You didn't look for investors and people to be in at various times. But after the fact and always at the point which we didn't really need it,
but it seemed like a good idea. You know, I've worked in movies and television for years, and you always hear people talk about the music business as being the worst of all these businesses in terms of the corruption and the terms of the you know, the old Paola and people trying to launch musical careers that way. Did you find that that was a big problem for you as the magazine got to be more successful, as people
wanted to use you to enhance people's careers. I mean, obviously, you know, there were some pressure to cover the cover onness I got a good review, but very little. I mean through the first ten years of rolling stuff. We were in San Francisco, before we got to New York. We were relatively isolated from the music business, which was in Los Angeles and the so we were kind of afterthought. You know, we weren't. If we had been in l A and been in the thick of the music business,
things would have been much difference. But we weren't. We were isolated, and by the time we became a bigger factor, and by the time we got to New York, our reputation was that we weren't going to be persuaded by money or favors or interviews or anything that that we were independent and fiercely so and we just say whatever the fun, whatever we wanted to say, and we weren't
we're gonna be held back. So if you were to try and approach us and bribe us with something or other, I'm sure they tried, though not really because by this time it was very clear you didn't do that to Rolling Stone. You know, Rolling Stone was gonna if you do that, we're gonna write about it. So that never
was a problem, strangely enough. And I'd say one other thing about the music business, I just thought it was a great business, as opposed to say the television business, where my experience in television was I had never seen so many two faced people of my life. In those days of networks. They were low is common denom there and the people were a little as common there. And then people in the records were always having fun, you know, hanging out with the Stones and the Beatles and weather.
And that's what I gravitated towards what's changed in terms of because the music business now is it just doesn't resemble the music business. When I started with pretty much independent labels run by the people who founded those labels were founded the music business like I guess the early days of the movie business, you know, and they had a lot of control. Over the years, it's evolved into
there are four major record companies. They're owned by huge corporations, and they have sound business practices and accounting standards that have to meet in the New York Stock exchanged type publicly listed company things. So the opportunities are not there. And on top of that, they're not they're not the dominant factor in selling records anymore. What is well radio
radio play continues to be. But all this internet stuff, streaming services, downloading services, are you know, huge distributors of music. How is that for you? In terms of is it the eighties? The is it the nineties? When you say to yourself, I'm not really keeping up with this anymore, it evolves slowly. Absolutely, the phenomenal's true, like what is going on today and today in music by today's artists, artists have developed of last five or six years, I'm
not really that up. I'm I'm totally up on you too, for example, But that's and they've got a new record out and it's great. And I just finished at this very table doing an interview with Bono uh last week, which is gonna be the next cover. So I'm still involved, you know, with the things I love, but I don't when you have people to keep up, obviously younger people, you know, I'm all, you know, like Lauren, I'm an
old guy. I mean, there was a time when you could predict what was gonna be on SNL, that we're gonna be the same thing that we were doing on the cover of Rolling Stones. So people would come to town, they'd be go to thirty Rock for that stuff. They come on to our shop which is a block away and do that, and um uh I when I see
what's Lawrence got on SNL. Now, I don't really know who most of them are, except for the occasional what do you call a heritage jack like you two, you know, but the great things about heritage access there's vital as ever. I mean, Springsteen is just brilliant and more relevant than ever. Did you see Springsteen show? Ye? You did? What you
what do you think? I think it's great haunting. I mean, Bruce can shake the last seat in the highest rafters in a place that's got sixty people in it, and so put him in a place he's got eight hundred people, and the intensity of his performance and his personality and Bruce is just a remarkable I'm having luce with them. In fact, sin as we're done. What is it about that period? Something happened there with the Beatles, the Stones and Dealing all be on the stage at the same time.
There is reminiscent of Paris in the twenties when you had Picasso, Matise, sla All working at one of artists that don't ever hasn't happened since may happen again in the other field in ten year or something like that. But you have that, then you also have the situation.
The phenomena, which is what you listen to between the time you're eighteen and twenty two, is your favorite music for the rest of your life and will remain at always, And that's why you will always turn to that, Because after twenty two, as you get into the business of working, having a family, you know, your ability to spend so much time involved with that music it gets more and
more limited. You get less familiar with it, and of course, then there's the evolution of the music itself into forms and formats that are technologically driven or commercially driven, and I order youth driven. You know that are different than what your imperatives are. Now, I don't myself. I'm not a big rap fan. I've listened to it. I understand the genus of it and the absolutely importance of it. I mean talking about a tribal telegraph that communicate with
a different, disenfranchised group of people. I mean, if you were listening to in w A, it's profound important. When did you mark that when Rolling Stone became rome ing Stone, Well, early on, I mean we we took us our franchise popular culture at large, thinking that we were gonna learn more about what society is about from what was happening in Probably culture is saying that what was happening in
the church or in politics. And then of course we started covering politics early on, and and our first big hit and politics was in seventy two Hunter Thompson at to cover the presidential campaign. What did you make of him? Because it because the Thompson for me only exists as like Johnny Depp and some baroque kind of movie what was he really like? Hunter was a one. I mean, Hunter was crazy person in many ways, but on the
end of it's really responsible, you know, thoughtful. He was that southern gentleman, a charmer, uh and extraordinarily talented and charismatic. And you love being with him, not only because he was so charming and so funny, but also if you're close and you felt when hanging out with it, your this is as close to the danger zone and the edges you've ever get, truly, you know, and so there's
an excitement. I mean we once one night we're driving from in Massachusetts from Cambridge up to Maine where we're going from staying in dick Win's. Dick Goodin's has came to seem Norman Mailer Maine, and we drive up the middle of the night, headful of acid, you know, both of us in the car, and and always only once he turns off the headlights. He liked playing pranks and being a jokester and practical jokes on people, and so
he was enormously fun and enormously talented. He was difficult to work with because he was time consuming and a little bit unforgiving Uh in his demands on you as an editor. But I loved every minute demands in terms of his expensive especially it was in the word count
was great. I just let him run in terms of just the demands on your time and your emotional strength and your say, needy, I mean at three o'clock in the morning, your phone rings, you know, well I this, God damn it, and you know I'm running out this and what you are? You know, I mean Hunters three o'clock in the morning, I'm sleeping. I don't. He doesn't
even hear you say that. So it was it was a full time job to edit Hunter, and during that campaign and send me to the whole business of Rolling Stone came to a hall because I couldn't pay attention to All I could do was add a Hunter for a year, you know, and pay attention to him in his needs, and then, you know, on the side run the company. And it was worth it right right right here. We became just dearest friends forever and ever until he
killed himself. And and uh, which where were you? I was in sun Valley, you know, in my house, and somebody called me and you know, made me cry and all that stuff, and you were no because Hunter by that time had was virtually unable to walk, he was incontinent, he had had a series of real serious health setbacks between all the drug use, and you see it done to his body world. And he was really, honestly within two months or so, being committed to a hole, I
mean where he would in falling apart, aren't. Yeah, he was falling apart and he wouldn't be and he be, And once he was committed, he'd be trapped. I never second guess, but you mentioned you're driving down the unlit road with him, and everybody's dropping acid. Obviously drugs. Was that another thing that you had to keep an eye on, which was that you didn't go down the tubes like these other people. I mean, I think that it was very,
very destructive for some people. Hunter destroyed him. I mean it gribbled and physically men but also really killed his ability to write. But luckily most people finally, somehow other found the means to get it uner of control. For myself, I just you were built differently, maybe built differently, or more sense of responsibility, or I had an adgenuous I had to move to rolling Stone was becoming incompatible with
drug use. But I think it has to do with age and getting worn out, and certainly it has to do with having kids. I mean, if you have kids and you want to you cannot be getting up and you can't. Yeah, you'll never see him, right, So we'll look at taken away from here or they get taken anyway. So it's kind of an abrupt thing. And I think the amount of drug casualties we've seen are relatively really few, given the size of the scope of the drug use.
And yet you resist, you know, you don't go well, I mean I didn't altogether resist, but overall overall, yeah, it could have been worse. It could have been worse. Nice, you know, I saw many people go through this and come out fine, you know. But I mean, if you look back at all the cocaine used, you have to say part of it was fun, you know, And that's that's a real true story of our times. There was
a period where everybody we knew was taking cocaine. You couldn't go out without running into at least in arts, you know, circles that uh, that end and it's forgotten. Now explore the here's the thing archives. Lord Michaels runs his own kind of empire and it's all on television for me, commercial television and those boundaries. I like it.
I like that you can't use certain language. I like that you have to be bright enough to figure out how to get your ideas across in that amount of time, with intelligence being the thing that you're you hope is showing. Take a listen at Here's the Thing dot Org. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing now. More from my conversation with Rolling Stone owner for Now Yon Winner, he's decided to put the magazine up for sale. This turning point as a chance to reflect on the
artists he spent his life among. Are you like the head of an agency or you like the head of a studio where these people are your friends? But it's more business and it's kind of the cloak of friendship around it. In terms of business, well, there's always the initial introduction is always about business, you know, and uh, after many years of knowing something really well, all that
kind of drops away. It's really about just a friendship and the relationship and the vacations together, all that stuff. So there's a number of i'll not throp the names now, very rare thing from pick a couple of people who I bet you've been royalty and music who impressed you? All the best people impressed me. I mean you're talking about people are incredibly talented and creative, and people are incredibly in talent and creative, are generally fascinating, charismatic personalities
and great fun to hang out with, you know. And I am uh in awe of talent. I really cherish it. It's valuable as something that I celebrate. It's what Rolling Stone celebrates. But for me, for instance, I've known Mick for forty nine and fifty years and he's his own uh, he's suey generous. I mean, he's as extraordinary individual. There's no one else like him who has that love of charisma, who's not on his talent as an artist and a singer, but also as a businessman, a producer of the concerts,
the producer of everything. I mean. So he's something that kind of hold mom on the and awe and still do. On the other hand, we have vacation together so many times, you know, and we've been into each other's house so much and as such a good nice friendship. What the hell do you do on vacation? With Mick Jagger, you guys like you cook, you have people who cook, You
have people what do you do well? Like? Uh, you there's a lot of boats if you're going to the Caribbean, and there's a lot of sailing, and there's a lot of hanging out, and there's a lot of meals, you know, and sometimes they're a little smoking and dope and then watching movies. The most fun with Nick in the way I mean doesn't haven about that is sitting around the
campfire singing where he brings his guitar. We go for a picnic, you know, five six, seven or eight of us and then I want to say the campaire then, you know, and I say, well playing expectations. He does that and then we sang a Dylan song together, and you know, it's just rare and extraordinary times. An interesting thing for me because you know, Jack are really really well. Is so the Beatles are red hot and they're really producing records for it is not less than two through
seven and the Stones go on forever. What's the difference. Why does one band? Well? You know, I think with the Beals you had very evolved personality, and John you had an extraordinary level of popularity and intensity that nobody has ever had before or since. And I think that that that pressure made it really difficult for them to stay together and they and when as drugs came along, that's when they broke up, you know, And I think drugs exacerbated their differences. How do how do the Stones
survive fifty years? First of the Stones broke up? Really nobody knows it, but they you know, throughout the eighties, you know, they didn't where, they didn't make records. You know, they were functionally broken up. And I think that Mick as a is was really persistent about wanting to find the opportunity when they could get back together again, and
he was able to affect a reconciliation with Keith. And you know, but that whole period again, drugs, that whole period, Keith was taking drugs for ten and twelve years and impossible to work with, you know, I mean, if somebody Stone all the time, you just can't go in the studio, you can't write together, you can't do anything together. You can't actually you can't even plan a tour together. You don't know if the guy's gonna be busted in Canada or not, or is it gonna show up on stage.
So all those difficulties drove them apart, and they just had to wait out the drug period. And now I think both Keith and mc went solo, tried to see what it was like and it wasn't gonna and that people wanted to see them together, and so they you know, despite all and despite Keith's book, they being able to work again together and and they do and the able happened to love being on the road. You know, Mick
loves to sing. He he's a musician. I mean, in the end of the day, Mick likes to sit around, play guitar, talk about music. And Mick apparently uh functions as kind of an almost quasi management, yes component where you look at the Beatles and you say, when Epstein died, they didn't have Everything started to fall apart and it's a vacuum. Who's going to tell everybody what time to
go to the studio? We gotta get a record where you gotta do this year we got There was a struggle over the leadership might call on to be in charge. John led him, but it was a complaint they didn't have a wise voice telling what to do, and Nick is among all the things is crely sober, smart business smart businessman, you know who who sees the bigger picture. I did this interview with Mick the only big long end he's ever given, which we did find because he's
not a guy given to that type. But I just finally said to this took place out in long and him against it. You know, we really should do this because I mean, we know each other so well, and we kind of owe it to history too to sit down and take the opportunity to down who wrote this and wrote that. And you know, I mean, nobody's better to do that right now than I mean, we trust
each other. So anyway, so we do the interview. One of the questions was he said, what do you think about when you're on stage, you know, and you're singing? You know, when do you get in the moment when you're at the moment. This is most of the time I met there, singing along and I think thinking of myself, God, did I remember to get the leaves out of the gutter back home? It's like everybody, he said, mostly though I'm looking at the girls now. Uh. Lennon obviously was
he somebody were close to as well? No, not nearly as close. No, No, I mean, first off, he died. I met him in the late sixties and we began a correspondence in the quaint Steps and he visit his house. He came out to San Francisco to a visit with us, and then I did that big interview with him. Uh. And after that we had a little bit of falling out because I print that interview as a book. He didn't want to publish as a book, but I felt it was my right to publish this book and it
was a SuperH historic document. Net book is still in print, and in fact, the last edition of it. Yoko wrote the introduction to it, and you know, and it's an interesting book and interesting interview because he and he talks about how it was the first time he had ever discussed the Beatles and what it was really like inside, what pain and misery was for him at that time.
But he's like all of when we did an interview, I was like twenty four and he's like twenty seven or something like that, and it's this were so young making such big pronouncements about life. But after that I didn't wasn't really friend. We would be in touch and you know, communication letters back and forth. But he was living in New York. I was living in San Francisco. Didn't see much of it at the end. But I consider him to have been a friend and ally, I
mean he was. He did many great things rolling Stone, in addition to he gave us that interview and the two versions cover and all sorts of things throughout there. Bob is another case. Bob. Bob is UH I consider a friend and uh a colleague. And we've had a wonderful relationship for years, for the whole history of Rolling Stone.
And it's not like we hate he has come. He did come to my house once and we spent the day together and ida was fantastic, and I watched him playing guitar with my little son and and all that stuff.
But we've had a really good supportive relationship. I mean, I think the mission of Rolling Stone and Greatpa was always to present Bob to an audience, to his audience, the audience in large, I mean his name rolling Stone, after all, and we viewed him and I viewed him as really the most important writer of our times and uh most talented songwriter, and I mean above and beyond everybody else, and so we were kind of an ambassador
for him to his audience. And I felt part of our mission was always to be presenting Bob to audience. And and I think Bob saw that and understood that. Despite all the reputation Bob being reclusive and silent all the time, He's done fourteen major interviews over the years of Rolling I've done two of them myself, and we have cherished him and support him, criticized him as necessary where our writers didn't like self portrait or didn't like this thing and that thing, but been supportive. I mean,
without Bob Dylan, nothing, you know. I mean there's no Rolling Stone, There's no rock and roll, you know, without him. Now, what's the provenance of the name Yon for a Jewish kid from northern California? Where does where does Yon come from? My parents like fans of Yon Sibelius, that composer, so we doname of Sibelius. My mother played piano, she played classical music. We grew up listening ever play Mozart and Chopin and all that kind of stuff. There's a lot
of classic news. They also had these that's of seventy eight records and like books like sleeves and and I remember off hand, South Pacific, Odetta, you know, a couple of other musicals, Billy Holiday, no jazz. It was, you know, kind of show tunes, classic music and folk music. And that's what I grew up and up. I grew up
with that. And then when the rock and roll thing came around, when I was about eight or nine, was about you know, I was eight and Graham hold of what first record I ever bought was Rock around the Clock by Bill Haley, and along with my first forty five record player. And I was eight years old the time or seven, and this kind of group got into that rock and roll thing in the radio and all this stuff, and at the time with Pat Boone and Elvis Presley and Everley's and we hear all that, and
that's still music today. That can still know every word to every song. And the first one for me was Twist and Shout. Now, certainly these last many years, there's been changes in the cultures, has been changes in your life as well. And Elton John kind of authorized you too out him in the magazine and yet you were living your life completely different way back then. Correct. Was it difficult for you? No, it wasn't really your life
the way you formerly did. Was it was it stressful? No, you know, I never I was never that conflicted about it because, uh, it wasn't that big an issue. I kind of had a happy marriages, that's who you were. That jobs fine and you know all that. And I wasn't really think of doing anything anything radical or coming
out or throwing my life obout. I met somebody, I you know, it felt natural and it felt easy because I was kind of in a circumstances where these things are relatively easy and I didn't think at all through I'm impulsive, and the environment was supportive, and it was a little crazy at first, you know, with all the publicity was trying to swirl around about it and all that kind of stuff, but you know, a similar you know, everybody kind of reconciled to the idea and accepted it.
And I never I never lost a friend because of it. I've never changed friends. And your adult kids and my kids were in high school and we're in grammar school at that time, and all those kids there. Remember my one of my kids going out and said, Daddy, dad school, They told me you were They said you were being gay with someone. But you know, it's the right thing to do. And and Elton, I remember I saw that he had said that, and I did come and say, you sure you want to say this? You know what
you're saying. Just the double check, you know, because it's personal private and I think in a great sense one part of our job is to be a protective of artists, you know, and and and nurture there are you know. Um so I just wanted to give him that courtesy. Uh, but a lot it's worked out. But so you're married, I'm married. So you met, he married three kids together? What went into that decision? I don't think you both wanted Yeah, yeah, you wanted another round of that. Yeah,
I love children. I wanted to have a big family, and you know, I had three children with Jane and then um Matt helped raise them when they were at least split the map the time, and he was deeply involved. And while gone and he's from a family of ten kids. Where is he from Detroit? What kind of work does he do raise the family now? But before that he was working for Calvin And you know, kids are if you if you love him, they're great. You know. Wait,
these are special guest stars. Who's this. Oh are these both? Are both yours? Are these both yours? Oh? My god? You? Who did I write there? Who's which one's? Jude? I wrote your autograph here and I wrote I'm Alec by the way, nice to me too, how were you? And I wrote to you? I wrote, why would you want my autograph when your dad is yonon Winner because he's met you. I haven't stop there. What's very nice to We're talking all about you kids. I watch every one
of your Trump skits. My god, isn't it crazy? It's so crazy. It's so I'm not doing right, But I must say I'm getting very tired of it. You know, the Trump, the Trump stuff has been brilliant, like it was more slapsticky Trump and a shower. Didn't silly, didn't get the thing that made has made Trump so great indition your skillet is that has gotten such at the truth of who he is and what he does. It's this almost real. You can't you're not endangered a threatened
by probably losing them. Hey, guys, it's nice to meet you both. It's very nice to meet. I call what you're described what I call is. I mean, I'd say it's the miracle of human life that you see every day and to watch them grow is a miracle. And you're as a parent, you're exposed that on a constant basin. That that's what's so glowing and special about it. And also, let's say so at your age, At my age, I tell people all the time, how many more premiers can I go to? How many more reward shows do I
need to go? I've done enough of that in the last thirty years. But anyway, Um Graydon has walked away. Uh, Tina Brown is not publishing anymore. She's looking more into multi media. And now you're gonna the remaining piece you owned you want to sell, We're gonna sell it. But I don't anticipate walking away from it. You know. I'm still have contributions to make and still understand certain things, so you know, I mean, that's slow. I doesn't look
away from it. What's a rolling stone cover that John Winner might have on the wall above his probably is that famous pictures and he took of John Yoko the weekend that he was killed, then curled up together. It
was that same weekend. That was that weekend, Yeah, just like twenty four hours before she shot that Hey, yeah, yeah, So if I show up at the campfire with you and Mick, you said you, and Nick was saying he'd back up the guitar, and seeing no expectations at immediately called and tell Nick, please tell him save us space on the log for me by the fire. Okay? Deal? That was Rolling Stone founder Yon Wenner with cameos from Noah and Jude. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing.