HBO's Sheila Nevins Makes Docs Hot

what will happen when she's gone. Sheila Nevins has overseen the production of literally hundreds of documentaries, which have won dozens of Oscars, and she's credited or blamed for being one of the creators of reality television through nineties hits like Real Sex and Taxi Cab Confessions. Whether they're shot in a war zone or the back of a taxi, Sheila nevins productions are powerful, brazen, and unflinchingly honest. But when it comes to telling her own story, truth gets trickier.

Her new book, You Don't Look Your Age and Other Fairy Tales blends fiction and reality. It's not a bio, as someone said to me, it's a sly memoir. Who counsel do you want? How to write the book? Who? Nobody? Nobody nobody? You knew instinctively to do this this way. I have no idea what's right. I knew when to hide, and I knew when to over here, and I knew the names of the characters without ever some of them are Sheila, and some of them are Priscilla or Melissa.

And I was going to do that in my book, and I didn't maybe nicer than me, more honest, I just felt that when I gave the character name, I protected a lot of people, or when I overheard it, I wasn't in it, and then I could write more freely about the truth of it. I don't know that I could have written certain things if it had been me. In her book, Nevin's uses a few characters to paint

a portrait of the male dominated world she navigated. Only one of those characters is named Sheila Nevans, but they're all strong, smart women who fight and sleep their way to the top. In a way, the sexual politics of the sixties and seventies is a sideshow. Sheila nevans true passion is to immerse herself in the lives of her subjects,

and like many passions, this one makes you suffer. I mean, I think if you're a surgeon, the person is anesthetized when you're cutting out their heart, but when you're making a documentary, the person is alive and kicking and they stay with you. Um, you know, I can't explain it. When you go to sleep at night, they they interrupt counting sheep. You know, you see, you see sadness all the time. There's a lot of suffering in this world. There's a lot of people who have no way out.

I mean, we have a way out, We have a way out, more options, we have more options, and without empathy, there's no humanity. And I think docus are the last resort for effective if that's the right use of the word feeling for someone you didn't know. That's a great thing about a document You turn it on, it's in your living room. Okay, you didn't invite it. You thought i'll try it, and then suddenly you're crying for someone you never knew before, and they're not. It's not an

actor playing apart. It's not something that was scripted. It's another human being trying to live in this country or another country. And it stays with you. It's very difficult. I mean you really, you really agonize. I agonize. I'm not happy. Just squoke into that closet full of Emmys and oscars. You have them, make you happy that you should fall on your foot, and their doorstoppers for most couple of I don't have them. But pick one if you can, and tell us a bit about one that

really really just crushed you. What was the one that was an extraordinarily difficult experience for you to bring that film to the public. Maybe the one about even though it was by far not the best documentary on HBO. But because I had been there twenty five years before, I was willing to come out as a parent of a child who had Tourette's and my son David, Yeah, and so I think that with his permission, I was

able to write about it my book. But mainly I was able to make a film for schools so that kids that had Turets would not be bullied because it was, um, you know, if you're a fat you were bullied, If you studded, you were bullied. But if you had Tourette's, nobody knew what you had. They thought you were dopey, they push you, they'd imitate you. This one was tough because I had to go to my bosses and say, I want to make this film about Turette's doesn't affect everybody.

I want to do it for my kid. And this is a big place called HBO, and they said do it. You've earned it, and I did it. Now for people who don't understand Tourette's beyond you know, the outbursts, the vocal outbursts and so forth, when did you when do you first become aware of a child having that? At what ages? And exhibit itself? Well, the vocal outbursts are less than five percent, So the fact that that's called copperalia, and um, that means that you yell four letter words?

Can I say them on this show? I think our answers if you're here, they know, okay. So the kid who yells funck shit, fuck you, fuck you in your ask your motherfuck that is less than five percent, But the media has it's the most it. First of all, it gave the media chance to use the words and bleep them and make it exciting. And secondly, it was

unfair to the kids. But people like Robin Williams. There's also a very interesting part of Turetts, which is called eiliad that yes, where imitative behavior is part of the affliction. So in other words, you go to a movie, you come back. The kid does the whole almost the whole movie, and does the actual sounds of the voices of the different people. But the film is difficult film. It was very painful because, for one, I had to tell David

we were going to do it too. Um. He had to be willing to come out as a kid who had to read. We both agreed that it was a necessary film. It wasn't great, but it was useful. You know that there are different kinds of document What about a filmmaker, meaning you have people coming in, they all, you know, many of them want something from you, They

want you to help. But I cast I cast the films the way you would cast a movie, you know, And I try to find filmmakers who have a passion for a subject, and then I try to put them together with that subject. So if it's me a maximum copa about abuses, let's say in the Catholic church, I'll find someone who is a renegade Catholic to be able to go after it both with the passion of being a kid who's brought up that way and at the same time someone who's able to look at it with

with the right amount of subjective involvement. And in that case it turned out to be Alex Gibney. But it's very different. I mean, Alexander Pelosi is doing a film for us now on everybody says, let's do an anti Trump film. Okay, I must get five pictures a day about let's do this, Let's do who voted, Let's do the Democrats who voted, Let's do the women the college graduated every day, there's something. And so it occurred to us that maybe what we should do is go back

to the founding fathers. Maybe we should go back to the dream of what democracy was. And so this film is about the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence in the Bill of Rights. And I watched it last night, pretty late, and I found myself getting weepy over the dream, you know, not laughing at it, but weepy over the original, into the beauty of it, the beauty of being free from

the king. And in the descriptions of breaking away from the king, it was as if it was on you know, CNN that night the king had just transmigrated into somebody else, and it was terrifying and also illuminating about the prophetic vision of the founding fathers. It's really extraordinarily interesting and at the same time, you know complex, but you know, this whole country was founded on getting away from from

a dictatorship. So who's someone and I'm being euphemistic here when you have the agenda in the morning and you come into the office and you see this name is coming in to see you, and you got really excited. Who's a filmmaker? You thought, oh God, he's coming in today, or she's coming in today. Who's someone you just loved working with. I love working with John Albert because he's fearless, because we send him to Baghdad, to the Green Zone

and um just to look at wounded gies. And he called me up and he said, there's a real story here of the camaraderie of the wounded to the wounded. Can I stay? And I was very moved by it because I felt that I had earned the right to say, without checking through the hierarchy, stay there, just stay there and tell his story. And you did, and we did and we were able to stay there. It's called Baghdaddy Are and it turned out to be about a hospital and in the process there was a young marine who

is dying. And he dies in the process of the film and we film it and um he was a marine and the Army, I guess you called. The army said that we could use the footage provided the mother would see the film. We called her. Turns out she was an emergency room nurse and she said, may I see this film. You know, at this point I'm not intimidated by much, but I was intimidated by this woman watching the death of her child. Paula came in to HBO and she came with her husband and she said,

may I see it alone? And we put it on and I kissed her. I didn't even know her, and I shut the door and we played it and she watched her son die. She came out and she said, come here, and I thought, oh my god, what did I do? What did I do just for this great scene? I'm such a funk up. She came in, she said, my son got the same care there that he would

have gotten in a hospital in New York City. There was a priest Overraymo's cathol and he said a prayer and she said, do me one favorite, sweetheart, just cover his face. I don't want his friends to see him go. And she became the associate producer of the next film because a year later I called her. This is the thing when something stays with you, because all you can think of is what if it was my son? And a year later I called her up and I said, Paula,

how are you. She said, I'm with Robert. Robert was the name of her son. So I said, you know, I think she was in church. What do I I didn't know her that well. And she was in Arlington. She was in Section sixty of Arlington where the wounded that didn't make it, you know, the young men and women who died um and if Afghanistan and Iraq were buried. It's a special section. And I said, you're with Robert. She said, yes, I'm at Arlington. And I said what

are you doing there? She said, I'm talking to Robert. And I said are you alone? She said, Now, there are lots of people here. There are relatives, there are children, there are friends. You know. I called up John Albert and I said, John, I said first. I said, Paula, how long will you be there? She said, I'm going

to stay till tomorrow. And I said, would you mind if John came, because she had known him from Bagdaddy Are and John went it hid in a tree and they watched the full house of people coming to be with their lost children. There was a guy there. I think it's one of the best films we ever did. There was a guy there. I'm sorry all you other people who made films, they're good too, but this one

really got me. There was a guy there who was the uncle of a dead soldier, and he brought him his favorite drink and he spilled it on the grave. And it was a chilly day in June, and Paula had taken off her coat and put it over Robert's grave so he wouldn't be cold. It was a surreal, amazing experience. And um, you can't drive by Arlington anymore without that resonating in you. They'll tremendous lowsome sorrow. And then there was a kid there who came to put

flowers on it. A little, tiny little girl maybe three or four, putting flowers on her daddy's grave because it was her birthday and she wanted to know that she missed him. And then so in the midst of all, there is the drink being poured, the coat on the grave. You couldn't write this. There's no way you could write this. If somebody wrote it, they think it was Schmaltz. Let me ask you this, which is maybe some kind of

a stereo track. You can um you can try to paint a picture from me what the what the company was like when you started, because when I always joke with people that HBO. When I was first living in New York in the early eighties, HBO would come on and they had that theme song that sounds like an ISRAELI played the same like MTV. They played Billie Idol and Flock of Seagulls all day long. They had the same two fucking videos over and over again. An HBO show,

An HBO showed what was that show? Brian ben Ben dream On, Brian ben Ben dream On, the husband of Madaline Stough, the Great Medal and Stow And so in that time, how was it changed, and how was it changed for you as a woman in the business. Since in your time, I'm not sure how much has changed I really argue, I don't think so. I don't really think so. I think I was an anomaly. So I was not a threat because who else was going to work twenty hours a day, have a sick kid, take

all the jokes, do the whole thing. I've had nine bosses in thirty five years. It's pretty hard because each one was a magic slate, so anything you've done before was unknown or not necessarily valid to them because I had to re establish themselves. So it was Listen, I'm not complaining. I've had the greatest job in the world, but I was an anomaly. Who what woman wanted to work twenty hours a day? Who wanted to do docues? Anyway? It was an eight hour services So it was tough

for you as a woman. What was hard not getting pinched. That's the great advantage to getting older. You're from the neck. Yeah, it's nick up now, But do I do don't do with that In the early days, maybe okay, I want to keep mind job, Okay, but not even yes. Of course I had to do deal with that. Of course I did, and I dealt with it readily and aggressively and happily because I didn't know any better and I, I mean, I've discussed this with Gloria Steinum. It was

the only thing I knew. I wanted that job badly. I wanted to make something of it. And if it required, you know, a hand on a knee or whatever else, you overlooked. I looked, but then I turned away. I wouldn't say I overlooked. I felt it deep down, but I you weren't compromise in some in some extreme way. People just took it was the rules of the game. I thought it was the rules of the game. Why

would I know it was like shooting a gun. You know, I don't like it, but I need to learn how I knew that was the way I did what I had to do. You didn't want me to not get this job, did you. I'm glad that you were as open minded to the benefit of the documentary, happily slutty, happily so because I didn't know anything else. The job was worth more than my sexual identity. There were no

human resources to protect me. There was nothing, and I was pretty you had no exactly, you had no protector, no, no protector, and I wanted to do it and to give it away. Yeah, I just had just gotten married. Yeah, at the time, would you go home and like, did your husband know that you were enduring all this groping in those crap? No, because I could brush it off. You know, I've done a lot of shows with hookers, and I've done a lot of stuff. At cat House

in Las Vegas. Were the men being taken advantage of all the women? Have you ever seen our Catouse show? They bought a hundred books the cathouse, you see. I don't have anyone else probably giving it out now, the book. When you make films and you get involved, you're giving notes, you're telling them. I'm watching the clip of you from Alexandra's thing where you're saying I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored. And what you were looking for in a film, what

you're expecting of a filmmaker of a film. Did you expect the same of yourself when you wrote this book? You did? Okay? Talk about that? Why? Because in a strange way, I wrote the book in a very selfish way, and when I'm in an editing room, I don't think I'm particularly selfish. I wrote it because I didn't want to be the legend of documentaries. I didn't want to be a docu diva. What did you want to be? I wanted to be a person. Like everybody? Are you

in this book? I think so? Would you say that there's some writing here that's the equivalent of the plastic surgery of writing without questions? There's a lot of plastic surgery in this a lot. There's enough. I mean, you said I looked good, so it must be enough. And if the book sells, good for you. If the book doesn't realis as you look. So the plastic surgery in the writing as well part of it, that's only part of it. Why does everybody pick up the plastic surgery?

I remember the lawyer from UM McMillan asking me if there was someone named Melissa, Melissa van Holden boss sleeps with her boss. It's the sixties and she can't get ahead any other way. And um he called and he said, do you know anyone named Melissa? And Mr Penny Broth is the name of the boss? Now, who is named Mr Penny Broth? Let's be real, he said, is, but it just came. The name came, Um, Mr Penny Broth, you know, fuck Melissa? And Melissa got a promotion and

it was three. It wasn't her fault and that's the way that was. Were the rules of the game? Right? Well, I mean they drove me crazy. Is there anyone named Melissa at HBO? I said, I'm sure there are a number of women named Melissa? Here? Is there? Mr Pennybroth? Have you ever worked for Mr? Penny Broth? I said, nobody would have the name Mr Pennybroth. They said, you never know. So then I looked in the you know, I typed it into my iPad. I couldn't find a

Penny Broth similar. But I don't know where those names came from. So is it really am I hiding? If there's nobody by that name, then is it there must be me? Right? I don't know the answer, but I mean I don't still don't know. It might not be the bravest riding in the world, but it's very interesting. Brave I never would say I was brave. I'm honest about adultery. It's also about I don't care about falling in and out of love. It's also about anti Semitism.

It's also about your heart being broken. Can we pick let's stop there. Can we pick one topic? Are you talking about adultery. Who's adultery? Certainly not my own? Okay, not your own. How do I know those eyes of yours? You've got those wonderful eyes, and in the morning they don't I don't want to know what they looking at the more, that's not my business. Is not my business. You've been happily married to Sydney all these years, of course, And did you ever describe what it's like for you

to fall in love? Because you're pretty tough broad, You're a pretty no nonsense woman. You're tough, well, I mean in a good way. Would it like to fall in love? Love redefines itself as you get older, when you fell in love with him? What did you fall in love with? Sydney? Or my heartbreak? In my book both take sax to Sydney first. No, my heartbreak first, my heartbreak. This is my show. No, it's my show now, I mean, where would you be without me sitting here? You'll be talking

to yourself. Heartbreak happens once, I believe real heartbreak. What happened? You don't repair describe the situation? We'll do what you do. In your book, the woman in the third person meets who Sometimes I'm myself. Sometimes I'm not. I'm really quite crazy though. It's a young girl who goes to the Yale Drama School. She falls in love with a guy. She goes home to his very fancy house in Connecticut with initials on the thing and Gilbert Stewart pictures and

all that. He goes to Harvard. They meet at a law school moot court thing, and um, the mother says to her, aren't there any interesting Jewish men in the law school? And you never see him again? That's heartbreak, that's heartbreak. You liked him, care about him, I loved him. How long were you with him? Semester a year of you know, sort of make believe in thinking that life made sense. Semester is a big chapter of your life when you're young, big chapter of your life, especially when

you've never really been in love before. You don't get over that. You don't get over that hurt. It takes a long, long, long What did you fall in love with? About Sydney? Comfort? Kindness and good partner, good partner friendship, intelligence. But I'm not sure he could have ever broken my heart. I think you break your heart one time, do you? I think if you're someone who becomes other people. Then you become capable of other stages of a rocket and

pretty much the same. I'm pretty the same, much the same person. So you mean you change. I'm the same person I was fifty years ago and just don't coming up. Sheila Evans talks about being raised by a communist. Sheila Nevans has nurtured many documentary filmmakers. Joe Burlinger, creator of HBO's Paradise Lost, is one of them. His films tell a shocking story of justice denied three boys in the Bible Belt, wrongfully convicted of ritual sexual abuse and murder.

Burlinger said the story haunted him. You know, my first kid was born while we were editing this film, and I would be sitting, you know, at the editing bay looking at the most horrific autopsy photos and crime scene footage. You know, I would go home at night after having these images like emblazoned on your brain and I would drop the you know, the door of the crib and pick up my new infant, who was just arrived a

few months ago. And every hallmark that my child would go through, you know, kindergarten, middle school, high school, I think, my god, these guys are still rotting in prison. I just felt we had a you know, we had a moral obligation to keep telling the story. Listen to the full conversation, and here's the thing, Dot Org. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to here's the thing. Sheila and Evans. Nearly four decades stewardship of HBO documentaries has helped usher

in a golden age for the form. But when she started, the very word documentary could doom a project to obscurity. I think that documents have become hot. What I began in this business, we didn't even want to use the word documentary. When we did promos for films, we would

call them docutainment. We invented this lultic word because we're afraid that if we said documentary, people would feel that it was for the elite and that it was about politics, and that it was not going to be about human stories. And so we we hid behind this word docutainment. And then slowly but surely it took a good years we began to say, well, maybe it's not such a dirty word, and reality programming sort of said real people can be

interesting in a trivial way. Now, how do we take that real people think and bring it back to real stories that have heart and soul. So then somehow it went docutainment, reality TV. Yeah, documentary, go for it. Say that real people, people without celebrity, people who are trying to survive in a complicated world, and say it in their own words and not either have to have scripted or apologize for it, but let it go for itself.

So if a woman would be living on a minimum wage, for instance, UM, we would almost cast that woman to be someone who could tell that story. I got three kids, I'm working in a nursing home. I'm making seven dollars an hour. I gotta have three job jobs. My husband is on drugs, he's left me. We we felt we could tell those stories with real people. We didn't have to use narrative, all due respect, but we could. We could elevate the common man's story and use the word documentary.

And I think they became somewhat precious and difficult um and and had parody at festivals. Began to have parody at festivals with narrative. So suddenly Toronto would have a whole section on documentary. Sundance was actually the first but docums at that time were hot docs. They had their own festivals. They were not part of festivals that had actors and famous people, and you know, they were sort of an offshoot. I think now docums have gotten parody.

But is it safe to say, I'd love to hear your viewpoint about this that and not that it's a seller's market now. But is it tougher for you to find what you want? It's so competitive, horrifying. Your job is harder than it was. Job is much harder because, first of all, of people have monopoly money and I'm still playing with real cash, so I really can't play the well. Netflix has tons of dollars and they don't. No, not for docues. No. Why why is that the company?

Is the company's mission or what happened? I can't speak for the company peon I would say that, um, it's not a high priority. Stars rule and series still feel themselves as almost like a studio. I think so. I think the development of a series is where the money's at. It's where the sales are at. Want to shut they're chasing that, that's where they're there. They're not there. If you took docues off HBO, I think they have a

million places to go. Ten years ago, if you took docums off HBO, you wouldn't have a place to find them. So it's tough. It's really tough. Let's talk about benzos. You say dependent but not addicted. I know it's complicated. Isn't it help us understand that? I'm not sure it's that curate, but I know that I have never changed the dosage in forty years. It still help you. I don't know whether it helps me in the sense that I color is working or whether it's a police but

I don't want to know because I can't sleep. And if I take two oranges, one blue and one white, I go to sleep. So what then do I want to step to clon and do you fear? Because I was told that that's like that and will beautron are like really heavy heavy, and he well, beautron is an antidepress and clonopin is a benzone. See. I believe that one day they'll discovered that anxious people like myself are missing whatever that chemical is. Why should anxiety be different

than epilepsy or diabetes. I don't really understand it. I made peace with it because I don't think I could have functioned that it was. I don't think I could have talked back. I don't think I could have flown as much as I did. I don't think I could have kind of stress of your career. I don't think I could have done it. Can I tell you about my audio book? Um, let's pause for a moment for

Sheila to tell us about her audio book. Now. The reason I'm doing that is because I'm a salesman and I'm a hook I'm aware of that to distance myself even further from from some of the characters in this book. I was writing a poem about Larry Kramer, who I love, and Christine Bransky came to my house in the country to celebrate Larry's eightieth birthday. And I had never read

Larry this poem. It wasn't really a whole book yet, and so I gave him the poem to read and he kissed me, and then Christine sat on the couch next to him, and I thought it was a u week a moment, I thought I got it. I'm going to get well known people to read my book and that will distance everything even further. And I said, Christine, would you read the Larry Kramer, and she said, of course I would. I said, would you read on an audiobook?

Of course I would. So did you play in the usual studio executive game start calling everybody and say, Christine's in? Are you in? No? I didn't do that. I sent the alleys of the book, and I texted people like Alan Alda and Whoopee and Meryl Streep and and I would say, never went to an agent. I never went to a manager. I just went direct, and absolutely everybody pretty much said yes. Meryl Street wrote me a letter. I don't even know that. Well, she said, um, you

wrote a great book. I want to read this story. Tell me where and when? Well, I mean, I went running up and down the halls of HBOC. But then I thought it's a joke. Somebody sent it and that was just you know. But sure enough when I called, we made an appointment. She came in. It was pouring, no entourage. Read the story. It was about my mother. When she said my mother's voice, I heard my mother. Let's talk about that, your childhood and how you grew up.

We were a movie. No. I wasn't allowed to watch television, No, no, no. My mother was a communist. She had gone to school with Ethel Rosenberg, and so when Ethel Rosenberg was assassinated or whatever the word is, in the electric chair, I thought any minute they were coming to take my mother. My best friend was Billy and his father was the editor of the Daily Worker. And I came home one day, Second Avenue in sixth Street. My father was a postman on the lower side. Yeah, I'm a poor girl. See

that's why I wrote the book. Because everybody thought I went to Barnard. I went to Yale, I went to performing arts. Ritzie, titsy, titsy TITSI doorman. You claud your way to the top. You're the Jewish Eve Harrington. Wow. No, I was very good. I didn't call my way. I was fucking good. And I'm still good. I'm really smart, and I'm smart about what people might watch, and I'm smart about self criticism. And I'm happy to be wrong as long as i'm right. So how did you end

up in this business? What did your father do for a living? My thought it was a postman in a bookie? How did you end up in this business with? No? Because you went you went to drama school. No, but I made you in directing it. Yeah, because I knew I was not a good actress. I thought that I would and I was a terrible to answer. I thought that I would have been good at storytelling and knowing

when it was wrong and when it was right. I had a great teacher at Yale who we also had to take acting classes, and she said to me, you had the perfect director because you're always watching. And I thought, that's true. I'm always I'm always looking in, I'm always watching. Taxicab Confessions, which we did, was an example of a show that came from observations like I found that when I was in a taxi, I knew I'd never see that person again. I could tell them things I wouldn't

tell anybody else. I thought, if I'm doing this, other people can be doing this. Why don't we do Taxicab Confessions and take the car out at five and go through the night. And then we did it. And they were great stories, great secret stories that people tell, and then we would ask them to sign a release and met very often they didn't. Some of the best stories are hidden in the lock and key. Now here's the

last thing I want to say to you. He went to Barnard and you went to Yale, and you've had this great career and you've won all these awards and your name is synonymous with the highest level of documentary filmmaking. Them the last you deliver my memorial service, I'm available. You have to get paid now. I appreciate your career, that's why you're here. Okay, But last, but not least, there's something about you. There's this woman thing about you.

You go when you make this effort in the the beautification and the kind of corrections and all this other stuff, and you look phenomenal, by the way, But I just want to say, there's a thing about you. You know, you bathe in this world of the stark and the reel. But there's a part of me that I think you want to be in love again. I see you in a bathrobe on a terrace in Paris and you're just having the longest kiss in the world. Is that what

you want? Is you do you want to fall already that I don't really want to be in a bathrobe on a terrorist and it's too good to get out my second you don't know you don't want to be in love again and have a passion, no romance, No you don't. I want to make the best documentary in the world. That's it. That's it, that's it, that's all I want. I just offered romance. You would rather that I want to make a document wins a prize. We're going to stop right there, because that's why you're the greatest.

I don't want that to make I want Alexander's docu to win awards. I wanted to make people know about the beginning of the founding fathers and the dream of the country. That's what I want to do. I mean, I'm not square and stupid and idealistic more than anything, more than anything, what do I want? What do you want us to make great movies? Yeah? I think that's true. It makes me almost want to cry when you say that, because isn't that sad? No, and I should want something

else or a piece of something. I don't want anything. I don't even go I don't even like. I mean, they ask anyone, I don't want anything. You're clear, I'm very clear. What's the best thing in this life that as we get older than to be clear? I said when I looked at my wife and as people say to me, what do you want to go? I want to have kids, and I want to have a family. And I'm fifty nine years old and I have three kids, three and older than you. Who gives a funk about

how old you want? If a flower pot falls on your head and your twelve, it's over anyway. I mean, you know, it's today, it's now, it's this moment, and it's the doc you you make. Fair enough, the work is all Sheila Nevans wants to be remembered for. Asked what she'd like carved on her tombstone, she responded, quote, she should have gone on forever. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing ewo