Farmer Hoggett in the Slammer

He played Archie Bunker's buddy Screech Cunningham in All in the Family, but Babe was his breakthrough role, and the moment he broke through, he put his celebrity to work. Cromwell might be the most committed activist in Hollywood. Not just fundraisers and photo ops. Cromwell's in the streets and chain defenses. He's been arrested five times. Both art and politics are in James Cromwell's blood father, mother, grandmother, stepmother all actors. And you grew around that. I grew up. Yeah,

I grew up until I was six. They were divorced when I was six, uh, and so I moved with my mother back East. I think I was probably nine when I went out for the first time with him to Hollywood, and then he was in fifty three he was blacklisted, so he came east the theater. Yeah, he was in Mary, Mary and Sabrina Affair, so too, very long running plays. I think they each ran acting three acting.

So for people who don't understand that the Hollywood Blacklist was to a large degree the Hollywood Blacklist, you can go elsewhere and work or not. Everybody, and he had testified, but he had left New York before the Communist Party really got organized, so he had nothing to say. It

was always my father's opinion. It's my opinion too that really the blacklist was directed not so much at Communists, but principally first of all Jews, and then secondly people who had come back from the Second World War who had a different view about America, what was happening in America because they could see what Eisenhower described as the military industrial complex, and they could also, yeah, the discrepancy

between what America supposedly stood for and what it actually did. Obviously, what was happening to the people of color, Indian people, women's rights, not nothing existed. It was all people who knew better, people who agreed were the more liberal and democratic country kept their mouths shut so as not to make ways. As you know that both all three unions did not support the people who belonged to those unions

who were attacked by UK. Howard Us had bought the studio and because my father had testified, he thought of my father as a communist and wanted him out, but couldn't fire him because of the contract, so he gave him a film to direct, call I Married a Communist, And my father knew what he was doing and said, listen, I'll direct this, but you can't. I can't direct this. You have to rewrite this. Well, he got writer after writer. Nobody could fix this was a piece of ship. It

was just propaganda, until finally he settled. It was a million dollar contract back in fifty three, settled the whole thing. My father bought a building in Beverly Hills, came back and did a play with Henry Founder called Point of No Return about JP Marquand and won a Tony, so his first time back on the stage you want a Tony, and then went on to do many many plays in New York until basically I did go back to Hollywood. He swore that he would never go back, but he

did towards the end of his life. I'm not sure exactly why. And they did two of Robert Altman's pictures, Three Women and The Wedding. Do you get a sense that both acting for you and an activism for you because of what your father went through with the being blacklisted, do you find that that had that impact on you and your life? He is a role model. Obviously. I loved um what I knew of his principles, what he stood for. Um. He had a very jaundiced view of Hollywood,

which I share. He was very frustrated all his life. He was a very good director, but he didn't promote himself the way Ford and Hawks did who had publicists, and so he didn't. He sort of was down the food chain as far as the projects all that, and then of course what he went through in the studio system, you know, with as the personnelity, as you know, as you will know, and uh you you encapsulate. I mean, I don't want to dwell on this because I want

to talk about more positive things. But give me an example of what your frustration with the town as man, not give you mine? Okay, the emphasis on celebrity, the emphasis on profit packaging an independent voice. John Wells telling me he wrote a beautiful story about a man who lost his job in in two thousand and eight and had to go live with this um his in laws and selling telephones. He had been a big executive and what that the tension in his family, what it did

to him personally. The studio he had a deal first look with the Warners, and Warner said, yeah, that's great, great, We'll put Tom Cruise in it. John said, no, no, wait a minute, this is a little film. You put Tom in it, the accountants are going to tell you that you gotta be it's gotta be capsized. The capsizes the film, and so what does it do? He goes into their nobody. He can't get it out. It's gone. The business is completely taken over by non creative people,

non creative people from top to bottom. It's marketing people and finance people. They don't even like movies. These guys aren't in the movie business. They'd like to just do the money part, the producing part, and then have no product at all and go on to the next raising money for the next one. If they could be making money doing something else would now when acting for you professionally?

Did you study somewhere? I left Middlebury where I was at college, and came and study with Herbert burg Off at the HBC and did a play with he and Udah and Sandy Dennis. Then my father, Ruth was touring my stepmother, Ruth Nelson was touring um long Day's Journey. Uh. And they had played Pittsburgh. So they had gone to Carnegie Tech. And my father really wanted me to have an education, the one that he didn't have. So I went there for about two and a half years. Left

that finished middle transferred, I've transferred to Carnegie Tech. And then I didn't make it all the way through Carnegie techither I crossed the disaster and but that's okay. Did you come into New York to start your career? Uh? No, I didn't. My father he had done a play at Cleveland and got to know the man who ran Cleveland kl molo and so he said, there's a wonderful opportunity. You can go as a journeyman and act and stage manage, and I'm going to direct a play, he said, So

you can be my stage managed. So I started at Cleveland, and then that summer after Kennedy was killed. Um that summer I went to Europe with directors from all over the world. Was the anniversary of Shakespeare's birth. So I had all these incredible people who ran their companies and you know in Slovenian, all these wonderful directors. And I did that. And when I came back, he had cut out a little squib from the New York Times that a theater that was touring the South needed actors and directors.

And I he said to go down audition for which I did, got the job. Arrived in New Orleans, met by the head of the theater, taken to my place where we're gonna stay in. On the side of the of the next to the door was a plaque which said coloreds only. And I thought, oh, it's a throwback to the Civil War. Wh they must leave these things up. Went up there. Nice black ladies showed us to our room. We went out to a restaurant and promptly got thrown out of the restaurant because John O'Neil, who was the

head of the theater, was black. Then I was white. And guy came over and you're shaking and said, I ask you to leave. My reaction is the Irish pardon sol was to John said no, no, no, no, I'll handle it and advise the guy that he was violating

our civil rights. And and that was my introduction to a company that toured Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, and Georgia during the height of the civil rights Shakespeare No Doing, Waiting for Gotto and Pearley Victorious to opposite extremes to people who had never seen television, never probably never seen a movie four sixty four, and I was actually I had gone to school with a guy um and I didn't know he was there, Mickey Schwerner and that was Schwerner,

Cheney and Goodman. And we knew as we were in Mississippi traveling around that Mickey was they were missing, but I didn't know it was Mickey until much later. Uh. And they hadn't been found in the levee they've been buried in. So when in the early part of your career, was there part of you that you said, oh, the theater is more my calling and I didn't You didn't really want to go out to Hollywood and try to make films into TV shows. The theater was more your

you're licking. First of all, it was I was emotionally retarded. So I wanted to design sports cars. And I went to Middlebury as a part of a three two program. You went to r p I and you got both degrees in engineering and engineering. And I wanted to design sports cards. That was that. My father was making a picture in Sweden within Mark Bergmann's my brit Nil Sineva Dolbeck, and spend Niklas was the cameraman. And I went, I

was now eighteen, and I looked around. I looked at them, and we went out to my Bert's house, and people are articulate and attractive and loquacious, assisticated and sophisticated. And I thought, ship man, this is I gotta do this. I gotta do this. You know those people. So it only took me about a month to get, you know, frustrated with the theater department at Middlebury. Now that I was and I knew anything. And then went to New

York and uh, and Herbert was. Herbert was actually very really central to my I mean, for all his shenanigans, I really loved him and adored uda. When you meet with Herbert, what was your idea of what acting was for you, Like what was your really because I have my own story about that, but tell me, like when you got there was it because you hear men sit there and go I was gonna pick up girls. I was gonna, you know, I was gonna. I think pick

up was the first. That was first. Women. My old my oldest friend in this town is a Swiss actress and she was the book. She ran the book, and I thought she was the cat's pajamas and we've we've been dearest friends lasting long time. What was like that was magnificent, you know, um intense, um, implacable, brave, um smart. I remember the last time I saw her. She was doing a play. I went to see her off Broadway. Um,

I think it's called Mrs Klein, about a psychologist. And I waited for her and she came out and I started to talk to her and I wept. I wept. I she meant so much. I did a TV series, and I had to choose between a job that was a very good job and a very challenging piece and a great role for me early in my career, or to do a TV series, which was a very successful show that was nothing to be ashamed of. But the real opportunity was I was going to play Julie Harris's son,

and I did that instead. For it, I passed on what was the better role to spend a year and a half with her and be around her, and oh my god, I was not a copportunity of a life wonderful another magic woman. But when you do your work compared to them, I mean, how was that path change for you as an actor? Well? I went to Tech and I had a wonderful teacher the first year before you got fired, which was basically, you know, an actor

prepares the method, um and UM. A lot of it I got, I think subliminately through my father and mother, watching my father and watching my mother stepmother, um, and then actually doing for the ten years that I did resident theater, not taking acting classes, but watching people making your own mistakes, being out on stage. In terms of acting, I think I learned. I learned a lot because John

Voyd brought Sandy Meisner's repeat exercise to Hollywood. He altered it a little, and I did that class with Richard and Jill Clayburg, Richard Dreyfuss and Joe Clayberg and a lot of other people who were working, and I happen to really love the repeat exercise, and the has great value, and I love the fact that it's not taught by a teacher. You know. Then of course I got a magnificent the best teacher I've ever had. Milton could sell us. Who was I just adored? Didn't tell me why why

did I love Milton could sell us? Because in his class. I took his class for like maybe nine months, and then I left, and I'll never have many memories of him. One was I was working at the time doing a pickup. I did a pilot and they picked up eight episodes and we were shooting, and I missed some of the classes.

This is like an eighty three eighty four, you know, And my then girlfriend was taking class when we go to that Beverly Hills theater of his and we went to I think I went to our Thursday nights or something. So I go some night and this one guy gets up and he does the scene and he and he's pulled a chair down to get the comments from Conzellis, and Conzellis begins, you know, what do you think and

what were going forward? Always with you you reflect back and then he starts to say things, and the guy starts to kind of debate him, and Conzellis with the big Conzellis was a bear of a man and very you know, very intense sky but it's nonetheless kind of he really laid back and he said, he said, he said, we're not here to debate my opinions with you. He said, you pay the money, you come here. I give you my opinions. That's why we're here for me to give

you my opinions. And and I'm sitting there going because I had taken Strasbourg in New York for a year and a half and studied privately with people in New York, and and I'm there and I'll never forget this. I did a scene from How I Got That story by Emlyn Gray, where there was the person that was the press, and then there was the person that they called the event. And so the one guy is the reporter and the other guy plays like thirty two different characters. You play

the Vietnamese dictator's wife. I did that in this class. And he walks up to him. When he walks up behind me, I don't even know he here works behind me whip me was Gonzalas. And the only thing he ever said to me the whole class he whispers and he goes lose eight pounds. That's it, walked away. I should tell me, Uh, I had done Hamlet. I produced my own Hamlet because no one was in L A and four, and I played it a little theater down on Santa Monica Boulevard. Sometimes we had more people on

stage than we did in the audience. It was the Olympic Theater Festival, so the RSC had come and they were playing out in U c l A. No one came to ours. But I had a had a very interesting time, learned quite a bit um. And then subsequent

to that about it a couple of years. Any about a year later, Milton did a Shakespeare class, uh, because he was working on Romeo and Juliet, which I also did with him, and I had was going to do the Nunnery scene, and I had done it one time for him and the class, and he said, um, you don't know what this play is about. And I said, Milton, I have done this place seven times. Don't don't tell me that I don't know. He said, oh, no, no, no, you know what it is up here in your head?

You know an intellectually at this place is about, but you don't know what it's what it is here in your heart. I want you to do the do the scene again. He came behind me and put his hands on my head and squeezed as hard as he could and said, now, say to be or not to be? Well. I didn't have to get but two words out when I understood what he was driving at the pressure. So unfortunately I didn't get to rehearse in the intervening week. So this the girl who was playing Ophelia, she just

thought that it would be the same. I went outside to do push ups on my knuckles in the driveway to get myself cranked up, and as I was doing it, the door closed to the theater and locked. Now I'm Hamlet is now locked out of the Nunnery scene. And I realized that either I'm going to have to knock on the door and somebody's gonna have to come and let Hamlet in, which he might very well say, go go let Hamlet in, or I'm gonna have to run around the front like an idiot and come the wrong way.

All of a sudden, hear footsteps. It's Milton. I have no idea how he knows. He just clicks the door open. He doesn't say anything to me. I can hardly see him. And I come on, now, I am so freak. You're playing Jack now, Jesus, I was on and I everything completely changed in the scene. She now pursued me. I kept retreating until I finally hit her. I hit her really hard in the face. Uh. And I finally got what this scene was about. And that was that was Milton.

That was both what he had done showing me physically what was involved, and then because I used an event that was happening to me in real time, and I laid the verse on top of that, which of course is what the RC when they work with the Sonnets, that's what they do. Um. So I learned, and I gotta say I just wanted. One of the lessons that I learned is something that you said. I remember seeing.

I think you did a master's class or you did some class, and you were describing that when you came to a there was a scene in which you had to walk down a corridor. The director said, okay, so I like, this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna walk down this corridor, you're gonna reach you're gonna open the door. You're gonna step into the room. You're going to see her on the floor bleeding. You're gonna go over to her. You're gonna get down, you're gonna pick

her up. I'm going to follow you with a steadicamp. You're gonna hold her in your arms, and then you're gonna you weep. And you said no, I'm not because I know what's going to happen. I'm gonna go down. I'm gonna get all cranked up to do this scene. I'm gonna go down the hall. You're gonna open the door. The camera's going to hit the side of the thing. You're gonna yell cut. We're gonna do that three and four times. By the time by the time I get to pick her up, I'll have nothing left. This is

what you're gonna do. You're gonna take me down the hall. You're gonna cut, You're gonna open the door, and you're gonna cut. So in other words, being able, that's what I can remember that from Heaven's Prisoners when they shot my wife Kelly Lynch to pieces and I said, you're gonna come in like a medium shot two cameras medium and tied of me. When I scooper up and start crying. If that's a separation, that's it, because you have to

protect yourself. And Milton's whole focus was on For those who don't know Milton, it's he said, you don't have an obligation to the play. You don't have an obligation to the play right or the producer or whatever. You have only one obligation that's to your own genius and whatever that is, it has to be expressed. Nobody gives a ship whether you feel whether your interpretation of this play is really wonderful and you're trying to get at If you're not at home, if you're not engaged, there's

no performance, there's nobody there. There's nobody to watch. That's what I loved about it. Now we've spent the bulk of this time talking about your working in the theater and studying acting. We have other subject to cover. Now I'm going to jerk the steering wheel. Now down this other road stretch. Cunningham was your breakout role, and you were doing film and TV before you did. That was the first thing I was. Yeah, I had come. I had gone to CBS because a guy had been at

Middlebury with Michael Severi. His father was Eric, Eric sever right and and Eric Michael had been really great with me, and he had introduced me to the woman who was casting him producer director. No, no, I think he was in the news department. I know what he actually what he was doing as at CBS. Uh. So my agent called me one day and said, get over to to uh to uh CBS right away, uh and they got

the show. Uh. So I went over there. I had never seen all in the family, and I read for this woman who had interviewed me and found the only I had sort of fudged on my resume that I had played Claudius at Stratford. I did actually go on as Claudius, but I was the understudy. She said, you did Claudius at Stratford, and I've probably flushed. And so she at four o'clock or five o'clock in the afternoon on a Friday, I read for her. She says, fine, wait,

the director will be down. I read for the director. The director said, come on, let's go up and meet Norman. And the next day I'm doing Studge cutting him, and I don't know what occurred to me. I think I had in my head art Carney, Hey, come on, oh yeah, I'm a off. So I guess I did that day and and Norman loved it. And the first show I did, Carol had quit and he was holding the show up, and so he did eventually come back. He came back because Norman said, what am I supposed to say to Gene?

She's half the show? And so we were actually rehearsing the episode where he was found dead in Buffalo. He and I had gone to Buffalo on a conference and he settled, but I had all the best lines. And my first time that I did at the Norman did the warm up, you know, you sort of get the audience going, and someone in the audience raised their hand at the first intermission and said, what are you gonna

give the tall guy his own series? So on an elevator ride down to rehearse that last bit with when he finally settled some the producers said, you want to do Hotel Baltimore? We got this series, so I now I have another series. I have how How They'll Baltimore? And I'm originating this part Dorman do that show. Yeah, yeah, really wonderful people. You know, we got banned in four or five cities because it was about there were there were horrors and gay people in it, based on the play,

based on the plate. Uh. But it was an extraordinary Did you love Geane? Oh yeah absolutely, Oh absolutely, what a great cast. Wonderful great because people don't realize people who even remember Carol O'Connor don't remember movies. I can play the villain and point blank he was such a polished act, wonderful and he was such a such an elegant guy and a very urbane guy and nothing like that. I mean in real life, he was nothing like that

people tell me that he was. It was a part of him that he was really sad he'd created that carocter. He was. He was bereft because I saw him on stage doing something when the audience said we want Archie and you could see Chris. I'm stuck. Henry will Winkler the same, I mean. And the thing is he saved me from that because Norman wanted to keep me on a stretch cunning him, but it didn't work out story wise, and I would go back after a couple of years. I went to Norman and I said, you know, I

really would like to do the show. And he said, Jamie, I asked Carol for you to come back, and Carol no, he says, no, I don't want him. And yeah, and I'm sitting there. I'm standing with Sally and Carol is walking towards us, and Sally said, Carol, Jamie, Jamie wants to come back on the show. And he went like this, He's better off where he is, which meant that instead of doing stretch cunning him for four or five years, which would have finished me as an actor, I got

just enough and another than another series. So you felt he was doing you a face. He wasn't. He knew exactly. Oh, if this kid wants a career, the way to do that is not get stuck into some character. Don't do what I did. Actor and activist James Cromwell. Cromwell is now respected as much for his environmental and animal rights activism as for his Hollywood career. Similarly, a few people have done as much to advocate for a more sustainable,

plant based food system. Has my guest Michael Pollen. We all have power. We get three votes today, you know, and people are voting in a different way for a different kind of food system. I mean eating is a political act. And um, those of us who can afford to buy the sustainable chicken and beef or whatever, you know, not everyone has the same vote. And that's unfortunate. And that's why voting with your fork is not We also need to vote with our votes, and we need new

policies without question. More from Michael Pollen now Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, James Cromwell talks about his start in the movies and his experience in a New York State prison. This is Alec Baldwin. You're listening to Here's the Thing. It's James Cromwell is making a living on stage and on TV. Now it's time to try his hand in Hollywood. The first film I went for was murdered by death Neil Simon and and I auditioned,

did a screen test and got the part. It's Maggie Smith, David Niven, Alec Guinness, Elsa Anchester, Nancy Walker, Peter Faulk, Peter Sellers. Everybody is in this thing, you know, and we're eleven weeks in a studio altogether in every scene, so I'm there every day with those people. Who did you who were you fond of? Like people in my own generation, there's something I like, you know. I worshiped Daniel day Lewis, I worshiped Colin Farrell. It was like

three or four of them. I really really Gary Oldman. I just worshiped them for their talent. So when you're doing that film, who would you who did you have a really vivid memory of somebody? Well, Alec was very dear because Alec and they had a you know, a dad, one of those press juncns you know before, and Alex said, I'm really delighted to be working with two wonderful young American actors, James Crumwell and Richard Narta, who played Peter Sellers.

He was Charlie chan number one son, and I played Hair Cool Paro Jimmy Coco's so right away the press wanted to know us, and and so Coco played a k Alec was always very very supportive of me. I didn't go to the house, but we met in London a number of times. I adored him. David Niven my father had given him his first job, so David was extraordinary.

I watched Truman Capodi, who who absolutely froze on camera, but when he wasn't on camera, when he was sitting around, there was a delight he could he could he could charm the paint off the wall and get them to talk. And I loved him. I was in love with Maggie Smith. I couldn't take my eyes off her. Subsequently got to know her pretty well. Um, So there was just a really great Nancy Walker, very dear friend. Does everything become

from that point on? Because you talk about you're too tall to play to be the leading man and you're gonna play the character man? Does everything become character man parts in the movies for the years to come? Well, there was a there was an event at the end

of the shooting. Ray wanted to publicize this film. He wanted to get some some heat Ray Stark Stark, and so he invited all the name people to a party at his house, which was Humphrey Bogart's old house off of Sunset, and did not invite Richard Narita and James Cromwell. So Eileen Brennan said, listen, Jamie, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna drink, and I don't want to drive home, So you drive me and we'll get there and and and you'll be fine. You'll be there in the room

because it's going to be incredible. Everybody in Hollywood is going to be there. So I said, fine, we got there. We were early. Ray comes down and says, oh, Eilean, nice to see you. Kisses your bad and turns to me and goes Hi. Rays dark and he says, Ray, are you nuts? He's been on the picture eleven weeks. Have you nuts? It's James Cromwell. He didn't want me in the room. Now we have everybody in the room. Uh. Sean Connery and Michael Caine had just done an episode

of Griffith Show. Yeah yeah, and Sean goes hates like he's he's still fulming, and Michael loves it because he loves to talk and tell stories. So he had a great time. So we all sit around and watch that. But then they showed a rough cut of a scene from the movie which was not either color corrected, it had no track. Uh. And he showed he had Ray had a picasso about the side, not as big as Guernica, but almost, and it was on wires behind a high boy.

And when they wanted to show the picture. They dropped the Picasso down but below the high boy. He had the great one of those great art collections, you know they had. They had a more in the in the in the pool for the more, they had Jacometti, they had art. They had everybody all on every wall and they showed the picture and Maggie and Alec were so Maggie said, I'm going to the bathroom. I'm not going to see this. I don't want to see this. I don't want to be here. Alec was livid Peter had

not come to the event. And so they showed this picture and of course everybody laughed at the set up lines, not the jokes, because they were laughing because they knew they had to laugh. And it killed the picture. Basically, they looked at it and those people, you know, Evans and other people and said, he hasn't gone anything. That's nothing, it's no comedy. It's it's too arched's too sophisticated. Nobody will get it. And basically killed this picture. It's become

a cult classic. But um and then we stayed. We stayed so long. Michael Caine Hackman, um, uh crowd, the crowd, I lean me uh and Sean Connery stay so late that the Stark sent a maid down to tells have to leave, and on the way out, Sean says to oh, Dustin often was there? Says to Dustin, Oh, you gotta see my card? A great car. What's a wonderful card? It's a magnificent So I'm thinking in my head, you're

Jesus kind a ferrarian Ashton Mark. It's wonderful. And we're walk outside and on one side of the driveway is Dustin's stretch Limo because they don't want him to drive home, and on the other side is as an AMC pacer remember those, Oh God, And he says, that's it, that's my car. And then I watched he did it for the same reason I'm watching Dustin Hoppins face. I think, do I tell him that pears of shite? What am I going to say? That was my only Hollywood party

and I loved the story. Then it's a change again for you to play lead roles the until when I think Ray was so piste off that I'd shown up at that party and Jimmy Coco and I had got gotten stoned and we stayed so late and that I couldn't get arrested in for film. I didn't get another TV. I did mostly, you know, thanks to Norman Norman shows. I did almost all of Norman's shows, and then I moved out. You know, I would start to do Bad Guys and you know, one off Serian television series. Did

you have your own series? No? No, I said no, no, never never started an US and never got and never touched. And my agent then, would you know, send out and they'd say, no, no, we know who he is. He's a situation comedy actor. She'd said, no, no, he's does Shakespeare. He's you know, he's done theater for ten And so finally they sent me this silly script, you know, about a kid's movie called Babe, and uh. And I looked at the thing that was about I had about sixteen lines,

and I was I thought Jesus. And my friend said to me, listen, it's a free trip to Australia. If the picture goes on the toilet, it's not your picture, it's the pigs picture. So so what the difference. So I went and I'm gonna run the pick up the flag pole, not you. And I said to myself, look I don't have any responsibility in this. I'm playing next to a pig. All I have to do is show up and enjoy this and enjoy these people. I love

Australia and I love Australians. I just had a ball a few run ins with George Miller, who I am also very fond of. We're different people, different people question the first christ Noon and the first one, which is why the first one has as much heart as it does. And George is a medical medical doctor, and he has a focus. He has a vision, as you can tell from the things that he does, and you can see what's inherent in that vision, that amount of edgy violence. Um,

you know, the the outsider. Uh. I think the world is a tough place. The world is a really really tough in a tough tough place. As opposed to to Noonan's which is no, no, we all should embrace. We have to embrace, we have to include people. We must. That's right, fun, wonderful. So um, last scene I'm supposed to at this contest, I'm supposed to, you know, say

a way to me, Pagan. The pig goes and gets all the sheep and they go through this entire course, with no, no, nothing from me, and they go right I opened the gate. This only sound you hear the creaking of the gate. The sheep go right past me. I moved the gate like this. There's a click as the latch falls. The pig was first take magnificent and the animals to do it. That was sheep is almost impossible to get them to walk in un which they did. The next shot was I had to turn to the

pig and say, that'll do, Pig, that'll do. I said to Chris, where do you want me to take it? He said, let me take it right into the lens and I said, okay. I had you know, all the time that I had been doing the show, I had never really actually looked at the makeup. So I do the thing and I turned to the camera and I look and it's not me, it's my father, and I say, that'll do, Pig, that'll do. But what I heard in my head was that'll do, Jamie, that'll do. And it

was a gift from my father to me. I'm sure he was there. Isn't it amazing how you do a movie and you make you know, countless TV shows and you do you you have the supporting parts in these character parts and countless films and TV shows, and then you made that movie. How old were you? They shot you knocking around Holly for thirty years and you basically grew up there and part of your life. And this is the movie that just blows up. It blows up.

This is the movie when everybody sees you like that'll do. Pig and my family we went around for all these years. I mean maybe recently we stopped with my daughters older, but might we might might might be ordering lunch with my daughter said I'm gonna have uh, you know, a salad with chickpeas and this, and I say anything else, and she'd say, well, maybe I'll have a nice tea, anything else else. Like the dog says the pit bull,

the evil pit bull, the tough pit bull. I mean that sequence with the pig almost drowned in the moment. Oh my god. We watched that movie a hundred times. I've seen that movie a hundred I'm not exaggerating you. You know you said that the one of the reasons that I think I have the career, besides what Carol's contribution was, was that the next film I did was l a confidential, which was Curtis Hanson knew what he

was doing because he didn't want the audience. He didn't want to tip the gag the turn at the end when I killed Kevin and uh And I remember doing that picture and I had no idea what how good it was because I had a lot of problems with Curtis Bliss his heart. We had a lot of fights, and I fight with directors. Um And when you say fight, I mean, I mean I appreciate what you're saying because I've had two experiences in my life. I didn't even speak to the director during the making of the film.

I mean with the conversation was to a minimum. You know, they come up to me, and you know, I would just stare at the ground and never make eye contact with them. And I thought, you know, I thought they're gonna hurt me because they want me to be their unconscious mind. They don't know what they want they know, So if they tell me that there's something they want me to do that I don't agree with them, I'm out.

Or if they don't know what they want me to do, I'm out because I'm like, I can't, you know, makeup. So when you're with Hanson, what do you uh debate with him? Well, Curtis really knew what he wanted, but he was basically an editor. He didn't he didn't know how to talk to actors, and he didn't know, you know, what our methodology was. And so I came into the rehearsals with a lot of ideas things that I wanted to do, and basically got no and no explanation. You know,

can I do this? And I this is a makeup? Can I have a cat? And then no, no, no, I got so bad. I went to Milton, don't sit take him on to lunch, you know, and tell him what your problem is. I didn't wind up doing that, and I remember that I know I've been nominated for Babe. And then and Kevin had one. So we shot up. We we the rehearsal came. I would see Russell leave the rehearsal like steam coming out of his ears, which

is normal. And then and then Kevin showed up and he had a new Mercedes and he had a little cell phone, the first cell phone, and an assistant because he won the Academy Awards. And so we're sitting there and uh, I'm so frustrated because everything I have suggested has been no, and he's Kevin stops and says, the line was rollo to Massi and that's all his line was, and it had been changed to rollo Tamasi. He knows,

and you're left fucked. And he said, Curtis, listen, the line is much better if it's just Rollo to Massi. He knows, and your fun is. I've heard that line a hundred times and anyway, the audience's way and I thought, oh boy, now now we're going to see. Now the Academy Award winner is now confronting him. Maybe he'll have more weight instead of a nominee. Curtis got up out of his seat, walked around the table, stood behind Kevin so Kevin could not see him, and said, Kevin, I

want to say the line the way was written. Kevin said, listen, that's your picture. I'm just telling you from my point of view, it's much better than way. So we got to the table read just before we shot, and the line was still roll out Tomasa. He knows. In your fun I said to him, what are you gonna do? He said, I'm not going to say it. He said, I've been doing this for fifty years. No one's ever said no. You don't say no. You say we'll do it both ways. Do it your way, We'll do it

my way. In edit, let me choose so we can finally get to the scene. In the meantime, during the whole picture I have asked for and all it's been is no everything, no explanation. Finally he my best scene with Russell. I had a wonderful speech. He came to me in the middle speech and the middle of the shooting, said Jamie, I want to cut that speech, and I thought, I can't get out of this. So I said, oh, oh,

I'm sorry, Curtis. I don't think I can do it without I need that transition in order to get and he remember him looking at me like, you idiot, I can cut it out and post your jerk. You want to take time now to do a piece, I'm going to cut out. So so at the you know, I have the gun. I turned around to Kevin. I shoot him. I say, have you a benediction boil and he goes rollo Tomassi and dies. I think what's gonna happen? Sure enough, Curtis comes down the hall says Kevin, I want you

to see the line the way it was written. Kevin goes m. So I turned around, shoot him again, have you been addiction? Boil? Rollo Tomassi? And he dies. He was going to die every time. Now Curtis realized that too and and instantly said, Okay, it's fine. I got it. I don't need that. I don't need the line. So I think, oh, now I know what to do. He persists. So I get to the last scene where I shoot Guy Pierce and Guy says Rolo Tomassi, and my line

is who is he? But I know that my character has already done a complete search in Los Angeles there is no such guy. So I've changed it to what about him? Guy pierces, Oh, that's great, and you're gonna say that. I said, yeah, I'm gonna say it. So I say it and rehearse. Dante Spinette is setting up the lighting the scene and I'm standing outside by the car and Curtis comes up to me and says, Jamie, I want to say the line the way it was written, but instead of doing Kevin, I said you, I scream.

I'm screaming, I'm kicking dirt at him. I punched the car and he just stands there like, if you quit, you ask whole, you will never work in this town again. We will suondicated like actress. No, he knew something that I didn't know, which was he knew at that point that the audience was already passed it, that it really didn't matter what the line was. When I so first saw it the first time, the audience as a whole had an intake of breath when I shot him, like

the guy from Babe shot him. So the director, he had a vision, he knew what he wanted. He was right about the gag. He was right and saying no to me all through the picture. So it worked. Now I want to get to this last such because we're running of time here, which is you've been active in a lot of environmental causes and animal rights causes. You work with Peter. I've worked with Peter. When did all

that begin for you? Um got back from Babe first thing? Yeah, and Peter calls up and says, listen, would you do the narration on this thing about four h pigs in the Midwest and what happens to them over the summer when the kids are not watching? I said, yes, I didn't know the organization at all and did that, and then they start to ask for more. You know, would you do a slaughter house? One? And England and Dan Matthews got you the best, the best, adore I adore them.

I adore the organization. I think it's the best. Um. So I got involved in that and then um mostly animal rights work, and then came east and got involved in this, you know, energy work. I've been working on that. Now we're trying to stop this pipe pine. We got arrested and we you know, we went to four basically not paying the fine for blocking traffic. We refused to play the fine and do community service. I said, no, stupid, I'm not going to justify your crappy opinion. How long?

Only four days? Only four days was supposed to be a week. The reason it's only four days was they you know, you're three days in quarantine because you get a test for drug resistance suberculosis, and once you pass that test, then you're going to the general population. But the organizing factor in these prisons is rape. So the first thing they say to you when you get in there and you're doing your your you're asked questions by a guy who's sitting up there, and he said, are

you afraid of being raped while you're being here? And I said, I joked, I said, not unless they're a lot hornier than I think they are. He didn't laugh. Then he said, are you afraid that you will rape someone? No, I'm trying to think. Wait minute, he's talking to a seventies seven year old man. Then I got in there and I unders began to understand what that is. If you do not want to be raped, you have to rape in order to establish your bona fides with the

rest of the inmate population. It's through violence. You can't beat somebody up because you get extra time. But raping happens so quick in the bathroom wherever. Then it happens all the time. Oh oh, it's indemn every day, every day. And it's not only it's not only the cons that do it, it's the guards that do it. They do it too. They rape the inmates, both male and female. So I saw this. I saw this, this continuation of the violence that mostly people of color experience experience on

in their communities. And it is completely and utterly unjust, undemocratic, unethical, it's poison It poisons, the community deprives us of the count Absolutely well, you are, you know, among the most admired actors and activists at the same time, and the

business people just are. So your dad was this prominent film and director, or your mom and actress, and you go through the TV and then you have a family, then you do babe, and you get nominated for an Academy Award, and it all leads to you going to prison, and we're gonna get you right there before they knock your teeth out and rape you. That'll do, Jamie, Sorry, that'll do. James Cromwell's remarkable life in Hollywood and in

the streets. This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. Here's the thing.