Eric Fanning Says Combat a Last Resort

When Russia or North Korea flexes its muscles, Secretary Fanning make sure US troops are ready to move to conflict borders. He's the guy whose job it is to ensure that those same soldiers have the tank's body armor and weapons they need when they hit the ground in Afghanistan or Iraq. I describe it as being the CEO of a business unit. My job is to build the army, essentially recruit, train and equip uh and then turn it over to the war fighting generals who were poured up through the commander

in chief the president. When were you appointed this position? In my home, I was appointed the position by President Obama. It was a very convoluted path. I've had nine titles in the in this administration, all in the Pentagon. Nine different positions that I moved through, including at one point acting Secretary of the Air Force. I was in the

Navy Department as Deputy under secretary before Obama. In Obama Obama's elected in November of two thousand eight, and you come and you start working with at April and two thousand n the spring of two thousand you start, yes, I need that multiple multiple positions yet. And I worked in the Bill Clinton Pentagon as well. That's that's almost where I started. What was your relationship to the military

before the Clinton and Obama appointments. I worked on the House arm Services Committee for Chairman Less Aspen, who became Bill Clinton's first Defense secretary. You're on Aspen staff, Aspen staff when you worked under Obama, What were the multiple deployments that he gave you. Well, I started as a special assistant to Secretary Gates, essentially working transition, went to Deputy under Secretary and Navy Under Secretary of the Air Force, Acting Secretary of the Air Force, Chief of Staff to

Secretary of Defense Carter. Then they moved me over to the Army as acting under Secretary, then acting Secretary, then I had to go back to Carter's office during the confirmation process, then was confirmed and appointed in May. And what what's been your motivating force? I mean, were you Did you come from a military family. I did come from a military family. Have two uncles that went to

West Point where career Army. My father grew up his family, the Fanning families, right from from Cormall, New York, right outside of West Point, so it was a big part of the family. Have another uncle who was career Air Force. But with the prohibition on gays and lesbians serving, I wasn't allowed to serve. So going in the uniform side was not an option for me. We were not for

that prohibition. Would you have gone? My my uncle's were lobbying hard for me to go to a military academy, um following their footsteps, but it just wasn't an option. Didn't really entertained it very much. Well, I wasn't. I wasn't out when I was in high school thinking about these things, but but it just wasn't an option for me.

And so I I knew at a certain point in college that I wanted to come to Washington and work in government, and I wanted to start on the Hill and I got a great job in the airm Services Committee. How would you say your experience of being a gay man who wanted to serve in the military and concluded that that was not possible and you didn't even bother How did that influence your feelings about that in the military? I meaning when that changed? Was it just for you?

I was in the Pentagon on the first day of the Clinton administration. Don't I Stonetell didn't exist. It was created that first year of the Clinton administration, and it was it was crea It was a difficult thing to be a part of. I was. I was a very I think twenty four years old and working in Aspen's front office, and so I was exposed to a lot of the conversations that were taking place, and I ended

up leaving um government eventually Washington. I moved up to New York City because I didn't think there was a place for me in that world. Once I don't ask, don't don't don't tell. It didn't apply to civilians, but but it still reflects what was the culture at the time. You came to New York to do what I worked for CBS News for a while, actually did a number of things that work for CBS News for a while,

but but I missed it. I uh, And then what happened, Well, I ended up going back to Washington and working for a think tank, and kind of coincidentally, in fun for me, one of my oldest friends in Washington, who I met on the Armed Services Committee, was at this think tank said come here, there's an opening. She's now the Secretary of the Air Force. UM so the two of us being service secretaries together as a fun time. But I

found my way back out into the Obama administration. Don't Ask, Don't Tell still existed, and it was I was conflicted about going back to a building that had that discriminated And but did you feel that discrimination? Well, I didn't necessarily because I was on the civilian side, and I think, uh, there were there were lots of people trying to send signs that they thought it was a time for a change, and the president had campaigned very strongly and repealing don't Ask,

don't Tell. It was it was difficult to get there, and it almost didn't happen. It happened. It was one of the very last things that he did before the first mid terms, and it was. It was an exciting thing to be a part of. You know, you interact with uniform military people all the time, and during your career, did you get a sense that some of them were less than warm towards you because you represented this the new military and you represented the inclusive military. I think

always hasn't always been polite. Well, they're always going to be a polite to me, especially in the current job, since you know the uniform. I think first of all, culturally, things have changed so much since the start of the Clinton administration. And what I've learned over and over and over again is you can't make decisions. You live your life and fear of of the people who have negative views on that because they are um they're outnumbered by

those who are supportive of the change. And each time that I got a new job and got some attention, and you know it was labeled the gay guy, more are more people would find ways to to show their support of me personally and the things we were working on. Describe exactly what is your job, what are you charged with doing? The service secretaries are CEOs of business units. The army budget when you include the war supplemental budgets

is over a hundred forty billion dollars a year. There's about one point one million people in uniform, a quarter of a million civilians, all a part of this apparatus. And my job is to oversee the creation of of the army, to make sure we're recruiting the right people, make sure we're training them properly, keeping them ready, and then keeping them equipped, and then taking care of their welfare, morale and that. Do you rely on to tell you

that they're properly equipped. It's an enormous organization. There are lots of people that helped me with those things, and my uniform uniform people lay on uniform people to tell you what's going on and what's not going on. Well, it's a mix I look for, you know, certainly the Chief of Staff of the Army, the senior General in the Army, whose office is our office is separate by a door um uh is the one I'm most closely

listening to. But I've got career civilians, I've got contractors, I've got all sorts of people that can help me assess the health of the force. And the contractors are do they have offices all lined up around the pending on Is there like a little contractors village there. It's not a village, but they are. They have a presence there. There is an army of contractors helping. They are there

in Virginia. But I asked that because you know, listen, there are so many you know, I think fair and some loaded questions that people always have for people in the military. Americans tend to feel that the United States military costs us too much money per uh the percentage of our gross national product. Do you have any opinion about that? Yeah, we do spend a lot of money on on the military. Uh. And I get asked all of the time, why do we spend as much as

an x x number of countries combined. We're asked to do a lot more. We are adversaries. Only have to keep us from pet They don't have to jam us, They only have to block us. We have to penetrate. We have to do it everywhere in the world, and we have to do it decisively. No other country does that. Um. The Russians are a European adversary. The Chinese are, but they're not global powers. Um. We are. And if we're

asked to do that, it's going to cost money. Do you think we can still afford to be a global power in the coming years. I think we can, but I think we need to think more creatively about it as present Obama has been trying to do. There are such as to what we can spend and and recognizing as he does, that national security is more than just the military. Uh, it's it's a whole combination of things across the entire federal budget budget. There has to be

some balance there. But in regards to this military power secret of military power, the military does what's asked of it. Uh. They don't go and kill Kadafi unless the civilian leadership tells them to do that. Um. I you know the people being confused at the Secretary of the Army is a civilian, not a military leader. Uh, not a uniform

military leader. The secretary offense is civilian. In the commander in chief of the entire United States is the president who's elected by the people, and so it's that civilian apparatus that tells the military what the strategic goals are and the military figures out how to the military the uniform military that's not the civilian side of it that you're talking about. I'm sure, there's a tremendous amount of pushback from them about what they're telling you they need.

And I'm sure there's a lot of lobbying going on from manufacturers and from providers about telling them what they need. And then their attitude is, let's air on the side of caution and build something that we may or may not need at a cost of hundreds of millions or billions of dollars for some system. Does that happen? Certainly? There are all sorts of forces lobbying on what we

should spend and how much we should spend. The defense industrial complex, um, other lobbyists, the uniform military them, the civilian overseers, Congress, all sorts of different opinions on Congress. So it's it's a it's in an enormous elaborate process to put a budget together because there are so many voices. Have you ever do it? But have you ever been in a moment with a uniformed uh A senior you know, official general or whatever that were their ranks, and told them, no,

you can't have that. Well, it doesn't quite work that way. Well, it's a very collaborative process. The budget process never ends. I mean, and you know, we're we're living in one budget year. We're um working with Congress to get approval for the next budget year. You know, we're in a budget year without a budget right now, which has been happening every year since this administration started, and we're planning

the next budget cycle, getting ready to submit it. So you're this this is constant, ongoing process of building the budget. You have a sense of what your top line is, how much money you have, you know what strategic guidance you've been given, and it's just a matter of balancing risk. You could never spend enough money to buy risk down to zero, and so that's really what the process is. Where do you place your bets on risk um to make sure that you're ready for whatever you asked to

do today. Well, I've always felt that, and this is a very oversimplified view. In under normal circumstances, let it go. Let alone in the presence of someone like yourself, with all the inside information you have. But I've always been of the belief of let's give every member of the military a thousand dollar a month raise. That's twelve thousand dollars times over a million people. So you're talking about roughly fifteen billion dollars, which is spitting the ocean to

this government. And I've always been told that people in the military, who are the ones that make these decisions, and say, oh God, now, if we're gonna spend fifteen billion dollars, we don't want to give it to a bunch of soldiers who are going to buy charcoal, briquettes and diapers and beer with that. We need that to be spent on a weapon system that's going to move the dow. American knows they're gonna buy stuff, and we and we spend that money in a certain way to

manipulate the United States economy. Do you believe that happens not in depending on We do think about our industry. But you know, some sometimes when when you're spending gets low, and and we've cut our procurement budget pretty substantially over a third in the of this administration, and salary is in the broad sense for just the uniform soldiers, not the civilians, is almost half of the army budget as it is. We don't think about the impact our spending

has an economy. Now elected officials do. Uh, certainly the economy does. But we're thinking that our responsibility is not just to make sure soldiers are well compensated, but it is that they have the gear and the training they need to to come home after whatever we asked them to do so that they're as safe as possible in completing the mission. So how much does recruitment fall under your purview? Are you involved in recruitment? Recruitment? Yes, Rerument

and how and how would you describe the recruitment process now? Well, it's it's US fighting forces are signing up heavily. Where what's there? What's their socioeconomic background? People who are going into the different branches. Is something that UM that I spent some time on and many others did as well, including Secretary car to the current Secretary Defense. Because we do. We're forty plus years into an all volunteer force. We

have the most fashional lethal military we've ever had. It's a very successful UM all volunteer force, but it is creating a growing divide between those who serve and the rest of society, which seems to be one On social media, I see some tremendous antagonism by people who say, you know, if you don't support the troops, and people who feel very isolated in the military community because they feel that people don't understand their sacrifices. Well, I think that's true.

I don't like the notion that if you aren't supporting certain wars or certain activities, are not supporting the troops, you can support the troops without agreeing with how they're being deployed. But I do believe it's true that the you know, less than one percent of the country is serving at any given time, and it's the majority of the country that and it is to your earlier question,

it is geographic. You know, we recruit sort of through the far Midwest down and then across the south, and and there are large parts of the countries where we're not successful at recruiting. Well, what do you think can be done to change that? Or can anything be done to change that? I do think things can be done. We we um you know, recruiters will go where there's where they are is success at getting recruits, and so they come hand in certain parts of the country or

or minimizing, not abandoning it. I wouldn't say that they're pulling back from those parts of the country. They're just focusing on where they know there's a culture and that we've been successful Kareem before and we need to make an effort to reach out to other communities and to go to other schools for RTC programs than than we're currently doing, to make sure we're going across the entire country.

So a man or a woman is sitting down in front of a recruiting officer in the modern Army and they fill out some paperwork, they fill out some forms, and they literally sign up and join the army. And in the modern Army, for people who don't know what happens, then where do they go? Everyone goes to basic training UH and the Army is the basic training is the same, basically training everybody who enters the everybody who entered. How many how many training bases are there in the US

right now? It's hard to say because we are doing training everywhere. Initial installation training UM for all the services is done differently. We have for the Army, Yeah, the Army Fort Jackson UH in South Carolina where we do most of our initial training. And how many people are coming through there a month, I don't know. The monthly figures we assess for the active component about sixty people a year, many of them make the cut and stay most of some of them do most of them, most

of them stay. We need do a little bit better job of making sure that we can capt catch those people a little bit earlier. Um, because you don't want someone to go through twelve weeks of training and then leave. It's not very efficient for us. From there. Then, depending on what what branch they're going to go into or what they're going to do in the army, there's follow on training. You see what branch meaning they can sign up for the army and wind up being sent elsewhere.

Well no, no no, no, they sign up for the army, I mean branch like infantry, armor or two branch of the army. And after they do that, uh, you evaluate their expertise and what you know. Some people have more advanced skills than others and they go into different operations. Correct. We do the one thing it's it's uh pretty unique to the Army that when you sign up a recruiting station, we're going to determine what you're gonna do. I mean, we have we know what openings we have, we know

what needs we have in the army. We're gonna line you up to that. So when soldiers are going through basic training, they know and all likelihood what they're going to be doing when they when they get out of basic training. So the ones who go into basic training, is is it explained to them when they sign on, because I've always been intrigued by this, is explained to them when they sign on that everyone would be eligible

to be in combat and fight. Or are they told when they sign on you don't necessarily have to go into combat if you want to. If you tell us you don't want to go and get shot at and maybe die somewhere, we can put you here. Are they given that option or no, Well, if if you wear the uniform, you could be deployed. But certain choices beyond basic training are going to increase or decrease the likelihood that you are actually going to deploy or are going

to go into combat. And some people choose things that will keep them away from that. Others volunteer to go into combat. So the right Okay, So now we're down to the men and women who go to combat or want to go over there to these extraordinarily surreal environments in the Middle East and Afghanistan and Iraq and so forth, that we that we only see depicted in movies or we see it in some footage that's embedded footage. You're gonna have you and how would you describe the people

that want to go into combat today? Well, first of all, most of them, it is incredible bravery and it is an incredible sacrifice and commitment. Every day I do this and I've been doing it now for twenty five years. Um Uh, this line of work. I'm more amazed at what we ask our soldiers to do and what they do and the impact it has on their families, on the entire rest of their lives. And so it is a pretty remarkable thing that people sign up to do.

Um At some point, I would imagine the military sits down and they have you know when in the medical profession, I learned this one. I did some research to play a doctor in a film. We sat down and talked about the eminem that they you after the operation, when the patient or the procedure, when the person dies, the mortality and morbidity conference, and they talk about why the person died and what they learned from that person dying.

And I'm wondering, what is the eminem equivalent for the military in terms of not just a war itself, not just to region itself, but even specific battles you fight and your and and decisions are made to send people here, and many many people die, of course, many of them innocent civilians, women and children in that area. And I'm wondering, what's that function like for you or anybody under your wing? How do we minimize that? I think we have And if you just look at this the last fifteen years

of this war compared to what happened in Vietnam. As a country, we won't tolerate those types of losses anymore. And it factors into the calculus of the decision makers when they're deciding what to do, how to deploy, how to utilize the force that they've got. Any time something

goes wrong, there is an assessment of it. Um. Any time civilians are killed, any time a soldier is killed, we are constantly assessing, um, what happened, what we could turn from it internally well oftentimes externally to the press is very involved, was exactly? There were conclusions, and then we make adjustments going forward. War is a terrible thing, right, There's just no question about it. For our soldiers, for civilians where we're fighting but we have done enormous things

I think to to minimize especially civilian deaths. That factors into any time there's any risk to civilians. And and remember we're not fighting just in deserts. Were fighting in urban environments as well, and the adversaries I saw others are very crafty about being able to hide and blend in any time there's a risk, it goes very high.

The chain of command. Decisions that were made in the field in previous wars are made in Washington now based on that calculus of risk, and that in and of itself creates risk for our forces not being able to maybe react as quickly as I want to, but all in an effort to make sure that we're minimizing the risk in the field for civilians as much as possible.

What do you think would happen? I mean, if we were able to to secure because I'm very cynical, not about the military, because like I, I agree with you and I've walked this tough line where you know, supporting troops, respecting My dad was a marine. He was a drill instructor on Parris Island. Uh, you know, I have a lot of respect and at the same time, I'm very worried about the civilian oversight in the civilian control of that in terms of it being applied properly. I think

properly in my terms. And so, you know, we have a new president and I'm wondering, do do people that work under you, who are career military and uniform military, did you get a sense that could you could you hear the cheers down the hallway when this guy one will have a new president? We have president elector god, I can have a couple more months of him. I

would just say this, the military is incredibly professional. First of all, it's it's an it's large and just in the Armies, I said in the Act of the Garden Reserve components, Um, we have over a million people in uniform, and so you have the gamut of opinions there. But they are dedicaid professional and they the oath they take and they take it seriously as to the Constitution. But we've always like to believe that they do have their political preferences in terms of somebody I think it's going

to spend more money on the military. I don't see that. I see the polls that people come out, I see what people are thinking. I do think, Um, if you're in uniform and you're at risk of going into harm's way, UH, more is better. You want more equipment, you want more modern equipment, and you want more training. Uh and you probably want more battle buddies on either side of you to make sure that you're not deploying constantly. But I think also, especially if you get more senior in, your

focus is more strategic. You want to make sure you have civilian leadership that is steady and is thoughtful about what they're going to do. That there's this myth out there that the military is the first to want to jump in and go fight, and it's really the opposite in many cases, because nobody knows better than the military what fighting, what war, what combat is really like, and it should be your choice of last resort. Coming up, Eric Fanning talks about how an over tapped US military

responds to increased tensions around the world. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. As Secretary of the Army, Eric Fanning's reach touches all aspects of that branch. He's the CEO, as he likes to say, the guy in charge when it comes to weapons and equipment, veterans, and finances. He works with decorated generals and policy experts, but Fanning says he feels most at home with the enlisted soldiers, the boots on the ground folks, the very

men and women who are facing new stresses today. Under the Obama administration, there's been a decrease in troops, something Fanning says, concerns plenty in the military. It's stressing to many of them because we're still being asked to do a lot of things all over the world. But the worst thing for us would be to increase the size of the force without the money that goes with it

for equipping and training. If we had more money right now, I would be spending it on um, on procurement because and installations and investments that are in the future that we've mortgaged to make sure we're ready for today. If we had, however, many troops, I've heard President elect Trump talk about active component. We need to make sure we have the rest of the money for the infrastructure to

support those troops. Do We just recently moved three hund thousand trips to the Russian border, not three thousand, but yeah, we are moving more equipment. The final numbers aren't set yet UM, because we've pulled down substantially since the end of the Cold War what we have in Europe, and so for deterrence, Russian deterrence, we are putting more there. Those troops going there send a signal that you don't

want them to what. We want the Russians to know that we're we are watching, and we are present, and we are ready if they try and meddle. And you think about how the borders where our troops are today versus where they were in the Cold War. They're much closer to the Russian border now than they were before because all those former Soviet republics have wanted to join NATO and have wanted to make friends with the West.

And so you've got the small Baltic countries up there, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia who fear the Russians might make a move on them. There's a few fear that the Russians might make a move on them. And the Russians are very creative at asymmetrical warfare and and and doing things that are just short of triggering any of our NATO commitments. Information operations, UM, Intelligence gathering all sorts of things in the Baltics right now,

and so they're nervous. Our allies on the border, other parts of the border nervous, and our presence there helps reassure our allies and also change the calculus, hopefully for the Russians. When you say that the United States UH is challenged in so many you know, the army is challenged in so many areas. The task is it out in so many regions of the world, beyond the Middle East, beyond Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Whenever you decide to focus on, what would you say is the most challenging part for

the army, Well, it's this Russian border. No. I think most people have have in the last few years said Russia is the biggest United States But increasingly we're concerned about North Korea UH and their their nuclear program and their interconnal not in no ballistic missile program um. They keep testing and showing that they're making improvements that that has us worried about the risk they can impose on

the United States. So I I worry about There are Army soldiers in over a hundred and fifty countries today, UH, and so we're We're all over the place. And when I talk about the risk to the army, I mean we're running it hard. Whether you agree with how much we spend or don't spend, we are running our military

pretty hard all over the world right now. But but another interesting thing for me is not I mean again, I'm I understand that sometimes there is a need for you know, I only have cliche is handy to me by the way, you know, boots on the ground and so forth. And but there's another part of me that has and this is a completely stupid from ignorant statement, which is I think to myself, God, if I was the president, I get on a plane and I'd fly and I go visit our six or eight greatest allies

who have the dog. It's going to cost some money, and I would set up you know, I'm not gonna say mission impossible, but I'd set up some elite hit team to go out and just take out the leaders and then the top level of brass of some of these organizations worldwide. Whether we got to go to Berlin

or or the Philippines, doesn't matter. When the world where in North Korea, get into North Korea, which we can do, I feel like we wait for for things to foment to where it becomes war, whether it's heavy naval, heavy air force, heavy ground troops, droning, what have you, rather than going in there more surgically. Does the government does? Does your department talk about that ever, about well things being more surgical, Yes, And there's there are a number

of surgicals. I mean the size of the exactly. That is an important part of of our military capability and clandestine operations flandestine operations, UM, surgical operations as you mentioned, Uh, drones used in the right way, but that's only one part. Um that doesn't deter near pure adversaries. That doesn't help you hold land. I mean, boots on the ground aren't necessarily more efficient. But you know, we can take out the leaders of ICEL, and there's another wave right behind them.

I mean they just sending new leaders in to replace the w How do we go and kill the people that are the gardeners that are producing all the bulbs there that are sprouting. Well, that's plenty of these analogies. For these gardening analogies. They're not flowers though. It's a combination of all these things you need. Um, you know, militarily, we could sort of wipe out Isle and Iraq and Syria. But what would happen after our troops roll through. What happens?

You know, new new insurgents take their place right behind it.

We need those, We need some sort of stability politically over there, and then those countries need to have the military and the police and so forth, the whole the land that's been If you could wind the clock back, if you could wind the clock back to even uh just before nine eleven, or even right after nine eleven, and in hindsight, which is terrible, if you had it to do over again, what would you have liked to have the United States military do right on the heels

of nine eleven? What what do you think they should have done? Well, let me come back in hindsight. Let make Covey out that by saying that I my hindsight. What I do remember I was working at a think tank at the time when nine eleven took place. I

do remember thinking, we're not debating this. I didn't have an opinion because I didn't I didn't feel all the facts were out there in the debate wasn't taking place, And I blame my party just as much as the Republican Party for for not insisting that that debate take place on whether we should do this and what the

strategy be. I didn't support it. I'm not on record either way because I was just a think tank staffer at the time, but I thought it was taking our eye off the ball of Afghanistan, where I thought we really needed to focus. But my biggest crisis back is we didn't have We didn't have the debate I think you need to have. And that's when when we talk about the growing divide between the military, which is incredibly

professional and just does what it's asked to do. Um, the whole country has got to be involved in sending a military, it's military to war, has got to have skin in the game, and that's not how we really think that other countries have to have more skin in the game. My my comment as a civilian, but one who was nonetheless very very devoted to this country finding solutions and finding ways to protect ourselves. With nine eleven happened, I thought to myself, let's build a military base and

make everybody pay for it. The Brits, the French, everybody, the Australia, every everybody who's in a NATO. We're going to hand them a bill and build a military base the size of Rhode Island in the middle of Afghanistan. And because Afghanistan was the sweet spot, we just park everything there and under US coordination. We have this diverse military forces so that everybody knows it's not the US, is not US, it's we many many nations are here

representing themselves. It's almost like a military version of Well, I mean that's what NATO was, I guess of the United Nations were. We're sending a signal to these people in this region of the world. All of us are here because we all share this fear of what you're gonna do. Well. First of all, we have a number of allies, um, that are ponying up. Um. You mentioned

special forces, Australian spirits, French. Um. There are a number of countries out there that have incredibly capable special forces that work with US. Uh. It is true, um that only I think four NATO countries right now are living up to the commitment of how much of their GTP they're supposed to spot. Well. One is Greece, and that's just because the denominator changed since their economy is having

so many so much trouble. Um. Poland has stepped up, Britain is doing it um, but the vast majority or not. I think part of the problem is we don't necessarily internationally in the international community invest in those um those institutions in other societies that help in the transition to

whatever the future is. And building a huge a military basis out of Rhode Island that would create all sorts of other problems for us because that just makes us look like an occupying force, and so you want to keep your presence down because that's what we'll create that. You said, what do we do about the gardeners that are planning the bol I think that's a big part.

I mean, who wants another who wants other countries there now by different name, Well, we've we've brought down our troop levels there and we're trying to have the majority of them focused on training, advising and assisting, helping build the army and the police so that those countries have some organic capability to false your stability in their country so that it's not us and we we are trying to minimize our footprint and our visibility there in many ways,

because just like the President thinks Guantanamo is recruiting tool, us having boots on the ground in those places can do have the same effect as well. What are you gonna do when you're gone? I don't know. My plan was, um, you know, to to years. Well, I I would like to find someplace really warm and go for a while and think this is I love this job. It's a

great job. Um. And you know, we have soldiers in harm's way today and so any place in government where a smooth transition and and someone having the stick every single second is important, it's in the Department of Defense. And so I will do this job and focus on it with all that I can until someone else is in the seas. Uh. Well, I I don't know. I love whing We're not married, but you're together. How long we've been, Well, we've know on each other ten years.

But what about overseas? Is I mean you've probably traveled all over the world. Yeah, I I I've been to over eighty countries now and and uh, I'd like I've always wanted to live out of the country. I've always wanted to live someplace else, and now might be the time. Um, I'd like teach a little. I'd like to, really would just like to take a break you think would be the best application of the knowledge you have in the experience you have other than consulting and getting a job

in the for profit world. Nobody there's nothing wrong with that, just gonna pay the bills. But um, I'd like to teach. I've it's always been interested in mind. When I first came to Washington, my plan was to stay a couple of years, get a PhD, and go the academic route. And I just early on in my career kind of had things evolved rapidly and got on a different track,

and I enjoy that part of it. One of the things I like doing in my job is is spending time with Rozie Cadets or West Point Cadets that are just at that point in their lives and their careers and are thinking about things differently. And so that's one thing I'm thinking about. But but I'm only half joking when I say I'm going to find a nice speech and just relax for a little while, because these are

these are tough jobs. They're kind of NonStop. Maybe I book I'm the only political appointing who served in all three military Department's, Navy or forcing. My plan was just was to try and uh, stay in for eight years, get a couple of different opportunities, pace myself so I could do that, but be tired at the end. So I knew I'd done everything I could and I've succeeded at that. So it'll you know, this election didn't go the way I had hoped, and I had hoped to

stay in the job all bit longer to get more done. Um, but it'll all work out, and uh and and I take try to take advantage of those breaks, because you can't just walk into your bord of directors your boss one day and say can I see in three months? And so I'm in no hurry to figure out what's next. What will you miss about the job? The people. I

have an amazing team around me. And one of the things I love the best I've I've worked in the Pentagon more years between the two administrations, and then most people probably think is healthy. But and I like that. I like Washington, but I love getting out into the

field and interacting the soldiers. Um. Every time travel, they want to you know, you get on a plane, you go along distance and they want to stick in a dark room with the PowerPoint presentation, and that the rule is, I won't do anything that I could do in my office, and so I just try and get out into the field as far as I can and watch soldiers doing what they're doing and if they'll let me do it

with them. From beyond a partisan discussion about US military policy, and some people fear that Americans are going a broken bottle in one hand and a chair and the other and they're picking fights with everybody, and out of a deep respect for the military. This is not about questioning their their preparedness or questioning the judgment of their deployments

and so forth in their and their conflicts. But people are afraid that eventually we're gonna get to a point where the Russians and or the Chinese make trouble for us, We're not going to have the strength left to fight them. Do you think there's steps that can be taken in the coming administration that can help strengthen our position to be prepared to fight the Russians in the Baltic or something like that. Do we need Do we need to get trimmer and fitter to do that? We are ready now? Um,

we we have an incredibly capable and lethal military. So that's so that's why it's so expensive. We are ready and and we we we want an unfair fight wherever we fight, um, whether it's a near peer advacy, whether it's terrorism, whether it's space, whatever, cyber, wherever it is, we want an unfair fight. But you hit it squarely on the head that, um, we are asking the military to do a lot right now, and so we're ready,

but tired. I mean, we're not doing these wars last fifteen years have taken us away from the type of training we want to do to be as ready as possible. And we're trying to refocus on a little bit. And whether that's a more money for training, whether that's asking the military to do less than it's doing around the world right now, whether that's increasing the size of the military. There are a number of different ways that you can

get at that. But um, but no adversary should think that they can take us on even as we're stretched around the world. Uh, not realize it's a bad mistake. Right. The many people obviously believe that much of the military activity on behalf of the United States in the Middle East is about oil and wanted to secure sources of oil.

But of course if we don't need the oil, if we look to the Middle East and say our oil needs here are so grossly diminished, now do we just get up and walk away now because we don't need to secure that area? Well, I think the calculus has changed over time and it's not about oil in the way that was in the past. Um, we do have friends over there, We do have allies and partnerships over there that I think, um, and I think those commitments

are important. But yeah, if we picked up and left, um, we we have we we have a a strong insurgent terrorist presence there that has made clear that they have capabilities to strike globally and have a desire to do that. And I'd rather be having that fight over there than inside our borders. Are on our borders. So two last questions, what do you think about the UH? I don't I don't want to say a sacrifice, although that certainly is

a handy word that comes to mind. But what do you think about the path that the gay community has taken in the military. Are you extremely proud of that? About how they negotiated these words over the last several years. Yeah, I'm very proud of that. I again having you know, started this before Donuts don't Tell has even created, been there when donust don't Tell was created, been there when

donus don'tell is repealed, which is a remarkable moment. Society has just changed so fast, and the military are they are they adapting to that as well. Yeah, it almost seems like it happened forever ago now because we've moved on to a lot of other things. But the military can maybe move in some ways slowly, but once a decision is made, they execute, they salute, they move on, and they do it very professionally. That the repeal of donnus Don't Tell and the allowing of open service of

gays and lesbians was remarkably professional and smooth. It was. It made me proud of a number of things. Maybe proud that we did it, may be proud that the president made it priority and got it done. And it made me proud of the military when they did. And then you know, we've done that, desegregated long before most of the rest of the country did. We pay women right now equal wages of for for what they do, for what men are paid. We've opened up service to

transgender soldiers, airmen, marines, sailors as well. And and when you take all these things, opening up all combat positions to women, it's about getting rid of the qualifiers and just saying here's a here's an actual legitimate requirement and standard that need to be met to do this type of job. If you can meet that, regardless of who you are and you want to do it, we we

want you to have that opportunity. Those in uniform who are gained lesbian, who are allowed to serve open and some of them, there are still many serving in silence. They put higher standards on themselves because they knew they were representing and they are incredibly professional, uh, and they didn't want to feed into any of those stereotypes. And

I wouldn't say inside out of the Pentagon. I'd say inside outside the Beltway, because the further you get away from Washington was why I like to go in the fields and spend time with young soldiers. And you ask senior officials and they think, well, I don't, We've never done that way. That change may cost some problems. You ask sort of mid grade officials and they say, we'll figure out how to make it work, and then you go ask junior officers or young enlisted and they're like,

they look at you like you're crazy. We're already doing that. You're just catching up with us. Society is changing at a clip, and we're recruiting from that society. And so it's time and time and time again when we make what they call social changes, and people call them experiments. And I don't think that inclusivity and and opportunity or experiments. I think they're shared American values time and time when we've done that, desegregation women the military don't ask, don't tell,

the same arguments are used and they're disproven very quickly. UM, it's been, in my view, remarkably smooth about opening service. Who are we to deny an American the right to serve if they want to step up and make that commitment on our behalf? You recruit people, I mean part of your responsibility in that UM when SHIELD is recruiting people. What's your relationship with the v A and with the

Veterans Administration? What do you think is if you could pick one thing you'd like to see done to help veterans more in this country, what do you think needs to happen. I think we need to do more. People sign up, they make commitment to the United States, We in turn make a commitment to them, and we have to stay laser focused on that. And we have a close relationship with the VA because you are a soldier one day and then you're you know, under the v A the next day, and we want to make that

handoff as smooth as possible. And the thing that I would if I were staying this job longer focus on is making sure I don't think we have a handle on behavioral health issues post traumatic stress. We are asking people to do unbelievable things that goes against the biology how we're wired and this idea. We've done a lot to make sure we we have help available for when people come back, but they still have to seek it out.

I think the whole paradigm has to change, where we say, of course you're gonna need help when you get back. We asked you to do something crazy on behalf of your country. We need to have that help available and make sure we've diagnosed it properly so that anybody who has been injured in any way through service gets the care that they deserve, whether it's a visible wound or invisible wound, and make sure we understand that when we're handing them off to the v A. Eric Fanning will

complete his appointment with the Army in January. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing.